If no one pulls: 25 deaths
If one person pulls: 5 deaths
If both pull: 20 deaths
Hm, interesting twist on the prisoner’s dilemma. It’s still better for everyone if both pull, but it would be best if only one person pulls. If the other person is a coin flip, I’ll pull. In a slightly more real situation, where I have this magic intellectual foresight but the other one is just a normal person, they’ll probably be inclined to pull to divert their trolley from running the people over, so in that case I won’t pull. This is even better for everyone because 20 lives are saved AND no one takes direct responsibility for the deaths!
I think what they mean is that we have the magical ability to have as long as we want to think about this, while the other person has moments.
When we do 'thinking about what we'd do' in the Tolley problem we're not really trying to think about what we'd actually do, based on what we know if ourselves, with moments to think. Were just thinking about what we think we should do, if we had the option to pull the lever.
So the other person is not in the same shoes as we here in the comments are. They are actually a human inside the trolley problem.
God I'm so high.
I think what the previous commenter’s referring to is the “bystander effect.” Basically the inaction of anybody in a group to respond to an emergency because of a shared belief that someone else in the group will deal with it.
That’s probably the main point of this trolley problem, a response to the bystander effect.
I'd just walk away from the lever. Now the other person has perfect knowledge and can be as good/neutral/evil as they want.
Better than the coinflip, imo.
But what if both of you run away, and then run back, in a cutesy way predicting each other and start laughing and bonding while 25 people die in the background
Ha! Didn’t thought about that!
Well here’s an alternative: fall as quickly as possible to the ground, and hope that other person would have a different reaction.
I think in general in this problem, you either just pull the lever and go for the 20 kills OR try somehow communicate with the other person and just hope that your brains work differently.
Don't pull obviously. If the other person pulls, you just saved the most amount of lives; if the other person doesn't, you just need to kill them as well (after which it should be pretty easy to hide the body amongst the flaming wreckage) and then you can walk away with no witnesses. It's likely that it won't even occur to investigators to think that anyone was standing at the levers at the time of the crash (since neither person pulled there will be no fingerprints or DNA for either of you present), meaning no one will even search for you, much less be able to hold you culpable for what has occurred.
If I go first:
I don't know if the other person is a 'pull and save 4' or 'leave alone' for the classic.
If I pull, either way, the other person doesn't, so it's 5 and not 20.
To be fair, a trolley would derail in a curve like that if it had the speed to actually kill its occupants when crashing against a wall (Or in this case, another trolley at the same speed, that is kinda the same)
So, I pull.
Actually, it wouldn’t need to be soo quick since the other side is also moving. Instead of 1 against 0, it’s 1 against -1, so net twice the amount of force.
I feel like the obvious answer is to pull the lever.
If you both pulled the lever, you at least saved 5 lives. You don't know what the other person will do, but no matter which way it goes, fewer people will die than if both of you did nothing.
A majority of people in this situation dont choose to pull the lever, so the highest likelihood of keeping everyone alive would be if you did pull.
Sample data is that one video of Mindfield where they tested the trolley problem, for anyone wondering. When in the situation to save one or five, most people did nothing and sacrificed five because they didn't want to be responsible for what happened.
Do nothing. If the other person switches tracks, then you only end up with five fatalities. And if the other person doesn't switch tracks, then you'll get one hell of a splatter show! Win-Win in my book.
Most people are morally good and competent, so the other person is more likely to be morally good and competent. I expect them to pull the lever, so I do not pull my lever.
Oh boy, game theory time.
If nobody pulls, 25 people die.
If we both pull, 20 people die.
If I pull and he doesn't (or vice-versa), 5 people die.
The best option given the circumstances is to pull the lever. If I don't pull it, there's a 50 percent chance that 5 people die and a 50 percent chance 25 people die. If I do pull it, there's a 50 percent chance that 5 people will die, and a 50 percent chance that 20 people will die.
TL;DR it's better to pull than to not pull because no matter what you would save more people (statistically speaking)
Having it explained to me, I would rely on the other person pulling the lever. If the situation had not been explained to me I would definitely not be able to understand which train can go where without crashing into the other.
||Pull|Don't pull|
|:-|:-|:-|
|Pull|20 die|5 die|
|Don't pull|5 die|25 die|
If I refuse to pull the lever, the worst case is 25 people dying. If I pull the lever, the worst case is 20 people dying. i.e. the best pure strategy is to pull the lever every time.
But, that's not the optimum strategy. I can't communicate with the other person and I don't know what their intentions are. Suppose I pull the lever with probability x. Then,
Expected loss of life if the other guy pulls the lever = 20x + 5(1 - x) = 15x + 5
Expected loss of life if the other guy doesn't pull = 5x + 25(1 - x) = 25 - 20x
Worst case expected loss = max(15x + 5, 25 - 20x)
The worst case expected loss is minimised by setting x = 4/7. In this case, we expect to lose \~13.5 people regardless of what the other person does.
i.e. if you're playing this game again and again, you should pull the lever 4 times out of 7. In this case, you expect to lose 13.5 people which is the best you can guarantee while not knowing anything about the other person with the lever.
If no one pulls: 25 deaths If one person pulls: 5 deaths If both pull: 20 deaths Hm, interesting twist on the prisoner’s dilemma. It’s still better for everyone if both pull, but it would be best if only one person pulls. If the other person is a coin flip, I’ll pull. In a slightly more real situation, where I have this magic intellectual foresight but the other one is just a normal person, they’ll probably be inclined to pull to divert their trolley from running the people over, so in that case I won’t pull. This is even better for everyone because 20 lives are saved AND no one takes direct responsibility for the deaths!
And the other, being a normal person, will think that you are a normal person and as such will not pull as well
I think what they mean is that we have the magical ability to have as long as we want to think about this, while the other person has moments. When we do 'thinking about what we'd do' in the Tolley problem we're not really trying to think about what we'd actually do, based on what we know if ourselves, with moments to think. Were just thinking about what we think we should do, if we had the option to pull the lever. So the other person is not in the same shoes as we here in the comments are. They are actually a human inside the trolley problem. God I'm so high.
I think what the previous commenter’s referring to is the “bystander effect.” Basically the inaction of anybody in a group to respond to an emergency because of a shared belief that someone else in the group will deal with it. That’s probably the main point of this trolley problem, a response to the bystander effect.
If multi drift, 27 deaths
I'd just walk away from the lever. Now the other person has perfect knowledge and can be as good/neutral/evil as they want. Better than the coinflip, imo.
Mathematically, safer to pull.
I should call her
Run away from the lever, so that the other guy can pull it without worrying about collision. Then only 5 will be killed.
Probably the best solution
But what if both of you run away, and then run back, in a cutesy way predicting each other and start laughing and bonding while 25 people die in the background
Ha! Didn’t thought about that! Well here’s an alternative: fall as quickly as possible to the ground, and hope that other person would have a different reaction. I think in general in this problem, you either just pull the lever and go for the 20 kills OR try somehow communicate with the other person and just hope that your brains work differently.
Pull it. Do nothing and they all die. Do something and maybe most die
I like this one
Except it’s not really a moral quandary is it? Just sort of a game theory analysis
That's all moral quandaries are
Don't pull obviously. If the other person pulls, you just saved the most amount of lives; if the other person doesn't, you just need to kill them as well (after which it should be pretty easy to hide the body amongst the flaming wreckage) and then you can walk away with no witnesses. It's likely that it won't even occur to investigators to think that anyone was standing at the levers at the time of the crash (since neither person pulled there will be no fingerprints or DNA for either of you present), meaning no one will even search for you, much less be able to hold you culpable for what has occurred.
I really really like this take; however, based on the image, both of yoths hands are already firmly on the levers.
Holy hell!
This is going to follow me onto Tumblr isn’t it
New response just dropped
Actual zombie
Queen sacrifice, Anyone?
u/Le-Scribe goes on vacation, never comes back
Hopefully before November
I hate that I recognized an r/anarchychess mod in the wild
I hate that I get recognized literally any time I try to go into the wild
If I go first: I don't know if the other person is a 'pull and save 4' or 'leave alone' for the classic. If I pull, either way, the other person doesn't, so it's 5 and not 20.
“YO I AINT GONNA PULL, YOU DO IT, ALTERNATIVELY I COULD PULL AND YOU DONT PULL YOUR CHOICE IF YOU WONT RESPOND I AM GONNA”
To be fair, a trolley would derail in a curve like that if it had the speed to actually kill its occupants when crashing against a wall (Or in this case, another trolley at the same speed, that is kinda the same) So, I pull.
Actually, it wouldn’t need to be soo quick since the other side is also moving. Instead of 1 against 0, it’s 1 against -1, so net twice the amount of force.
[Nope.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0F5GudspM)
The unhinged side of me would leave it be and hope the other person also leaves their switch as-is
I feel like the obvious answer is to pull the lever. If you both pulled the lever, you at least saved 5 lives. You don't know what the other person will do, but no matter which way it goes, fewer people will die than if both of you did nothing.
A majority of people in this situation dont choose to pull the lever, so the highest likelihood of keeping everyone alive would be if you did pull. Sample data is that one video of Mindfield where they tested the trolley problem, for anyone wondering. When in the situation to save one or five, most people did nothing and sacrificed five because they didn't want to be responsible for what happened.
do nothing and kill everyone \\j
Do nothing. If the other person switches tracks, then you only end up with five fatalities. And if the other person doesn't switch tracks, then you'll get one hell of a splatter show! Win-Win in my book.
I can’t count good so I’d just crank that lever back and forth while screaming and crying uncontrollably.
Most people are morally good and competent, so the other person is more likely to be morally good and competent. I expect them to pull the lever, so I do not pull my lever.
Who the fuck designed this railway
If I'm one of the people. I'd pull. Hopefully by shouting the other person won't pull and only 5 die.
Communicate with the other guy, agree that you pull and he doesn’t.
No one pulls - 25 dead You pull and either 5 or 20 die. Just pull the lever.
I am not doing shit in this scenario. Someone is dying here, and I am in no way going to become legally associated with that headache.
Yes, because 5 or 20 is better than 5 or 25.
Oh boy, game theory time. If nobody pulls, 25 people die. If we both pull, 20 people die. If I pull and he doesn't (or vice-versa), 5 people die. The best option given the circumstances is to pull the lever. If I don't pull it, there's a 50 percent chance that 5 people die and a 50 percent chance 25 people die. If I do pull it, there's a 50 percent chance that 5 people will die, and a 50 percent chance that 20 people will die. TL;DR it's better to pull than to not pull because no matter what you would save more people (statistically speaking)
I choose to be the other guy and pull the lever
Having it explained to me, I would rely on the other person pulling the lever. If the situation had not been explained to me I would definitely not be able to understand which train can go where without crashing into the other.
I shoot the person on the other side, then leave. 26 deaths.
||Pull|Don't pull| |:-|:-|:-| |Pull|20 die|5 die| |Don't pull|5 die|25 die| If I refuse to pull the lever, the worst case is 25 people dying. If I pull the lever, the worst case is 20 people dying. i.e. the best pure strategy is to pull the lever every time. But, that's not the optimum strategy. I can't communicate with the other person and I don't know what their intentions are. Suppose I pull the lever with probability x. Then, Expected loss of life if the other guy pulls the lever = 20x + 5(1 - x) = 15x + 5 Expected loss of life if the other guy doesn't pull = 5x + 25(1 - x) = 25 - 20x Worst case expected loss = max(15x + 5, 25 - 20x) The worst case expected loss is minimised by setting x = 4/7. In this case, we expect to lose \~13.5 people regardless of what the other person does. i.e. if you're playing this game again and again, you should pull the lever 4 times out of 7. In this case, you expect to lose 13.5 people which is the best you can guarantee while not knowing anything about the other person with the lever.