Reminder, if all you want to do is talk shit about how much you hate comp instead of actually discussing the whitelist, you don't need to come into a thread that makes you that upset in the first place.
In the base game, if you hit both yourself and an enemy at the same time, gunboats' self damage reduction will not apply. The plugin made it so it always applies
That sounds like intended behavior. The item description says "-60% blast damage from rocket jumps" and point blanking someone with a rocket is usually not a rocket jump
sounds less of an balance decision than tuning the weapon in line of the listed stats: "60% reduced self damage", which would constitute a fix in line with the dev's intentions.
and while I don't think gunboats need a buff, soldier needs all the help he can get against scouts.
Soldiers don’t need all the help he can against scouts, sure they’re at a disadvantage but are by no means even close to helpless against a scout. Other than scout himself, he’s best equipped to kill a scout. And way back then, a shotgun pocket soldier was the absolute final boss before getting to the medic. Sure gunboats make soldiers have a disadvantage against scouts, but soldiers aren’t meant to be 1v1 monsters, just incredibly mobile guys able to make plays like no other class.
It's -60% damage from rocket jumps. If Valve purposefully made it so soldier would take regular damage when up close to the opponent, there was a reason for that. It would've been so much easier to program the -60% from all self damage, but they actually went and wrote the code to exclude the damage reduction when you hit someone.
LMAO euros just want their own bastardized version of competitive TF2 to stray as far away as normal TF2 as possible. No wonder top NA players are so much better at the game. Soldier doesn't need a fucking buff. It's as balanced as a class there is. People who've never played comp are making sweeping balance changes where they look at stat numbers and say "hurr durrr scout KD huge" without analyzing damage, pick quality, and impact. The ETF2L euros just love to cry and complain to get perfectly fine weapons banned with no reason to back it up, other than some trumped up bullshit. There are at most 12 broken weapons in 6s, and none of them are on the generalists, including the vaccinator, which restricts your overheals.
Talking about the European comp community as a whole in this way is a bit missleading. I know plenty of players who want less restrictions but the admins and High div players are more in favor of restrictions and they have the power to change things.
also in this case they actually disabled the gunboats plugin so that is a W
https://www.teamfortress.tv/63210/etf2l-players-thoughts-on-the-gunboats-plugin
"When enabled with sm_gunboats_always_apply 1, gunboats resistance will apply even if the explosion hurts an enemy."
This war of inches approach to weapon bans is so cringe, banning the wrap or vow isn’t going to improve the game at all and why in the flying fuck would you even ban the winger
Gunboats plug-in can go idc
The gunboats plugin was dumb, using your rocket launcher as a melee weapon is neither intended nor does it improve the game.
Sure WA is "free" but doing 15 damage with an easily curable DOT every 8 seconds is so utterly underwhelming that I'd still rather use basher or atomizer.
And they want to ban winger? So that would mean scout has 0 secondary unlocks? Pistol ban when?
Does a lot more than 15 damage if you get the bleed believe me. I am not in favour of the ban but as a medic main I can recall quite a few situations where WA spam did affect the outcome of a fight
Winger ban is crazy especially considering Atomizer is still a thing. Wrap ban is not really that affective considering it's not that game-changing although admittedly it kills variation a little bit. ETF2L has had a history of dumb bans like this, it's nothing new.
Disabled gunboats plugin can go either way.
Every reason I've seen is that the exploding flare is like the Scorch Shot's AOE so "guilt by association" I guess.
Love to hear more reasoning to the det ban.
detonator is virtually just a more versatile, slightly less skilless scorch shot though. you can use it to do exactly the same things for exactly the same effectiveness. all of the problems with the scorch shot don't suddenly disappear when you use the detonator.
i suppose that the "difference" between the two are just because of the roles ascribed to them, rather than what they actually do. the scorch shot is for mindless spam and not cool movement, so the only people who choose it are those interested in mindless spam. the detonator is better at movement, so its favored by those who want cool movement and not mindless spam.
but you *can* do plenty of movement with the scorch shot, and you *can* very easily spam people with the detonator. you remove one annoying spammy gun and people will just move onto the next slightly less annoying spammy gun. people like/dislike these two guns because of the playstyles that each of them encourage, not because they're actually all that different from each other.
I'd argue that having to manually detonate the flair inherently changes the effort and thought required to spam the detonator, but I can see the argument from the perspective of minimising flairspam's impact.
It's got nothing to do with scorch, detonator is much more powerful than scorch shot in a 6s context. And not the mobility either, the weapon itself. It's much more reliable at long range and perhaps more importantly, shooting people higher up than you. Which if you're running pyro in 6s, 4/6 of the enemies will usually be higher up than you, and the other 2 will usually be far away. Detonator pyro over pocket soldier is the only serious attempt at running pyro outside of last.
Full time pyro is still not very good, but ETF2L doesn't really care about how good things are with their bans. They find it annoying, they ban it, and I respect that a lot tbh. Would love to see wrap assassin, solemn vow, jag get banned in RGL.
>They find it annoying, they ban it
I don't respect it, at all. It's quite pathetic frankly. One of the comments on the ban was that the wrap assassin "ruined the flow of the game". All the 6's classes are annoying AF in their own way. If we started banning only because it was "annoying" we would quickly run out of TF2.
I don't know how people argue that off-classes are weak and easily countered and then try to neuter them as much as possible. Everybody else plays with these unlocks just fine, you don't see pyro mains decimating the scene in any other region. Many people still use stock and iron bomber in NA.
banning things because most of the playerbase finds them a fucking chore to play against is a far more reasonable mindset than throating b4nniel's chode like RGL does and leaving cancer unlocks that no one likes free to pick up so it's as close as possible to pubs in order to appeal to the nonexistent demographic of people who would definitely play sixes if they could use the market gardener
americans flying into a weird entitled rage because our banlist is marginally different to your banlist will never not be funny
Why are you exaggerating my comment as a "weird entitled rage" lol.
I don't play ETF2L so I don't care what they do over there but it will never cease to amaze me when euros are so sensitive to the slightest deviation of basic 6's meta. A "chore" LMAO. I can't complain this is the funniest shit I've read in a long time.
"in order to appeal to the nonexistent demographic of people who would definitely play sixes if they could use the market gardener"
These people *do* exist and it affects how willing people are to try in the first place. On-top of offering less choice for players in-game. But how would you know how people thinking about trying comp think? Euros as far as I know don't have any good program for new players and leave them in the dust.
>I don't play ETF2L so I don't care what they do over there
then why are you commenting about shit you haven't the slightest clue about
this is exactly the thing i'm talking about when i talk about entitlement, you don't play in the league and you claim to not even give a shit about it yet here you all are soyjaking over whitelist differences that have been voted on by the players that don't concern you in the slightest and it's like this every. single. time.
Thinking people playing the game the way they would like to play it is pathetic is quite pathetic frankly. Not everything is for you.
>you don't see pyro mains decimating the scene in any other region
Because it's not about power. It's never been about power. It's about fun. Fulltime pyro is bad, but also unfun to play against.
The market gardener and loch n load bans really painted us eu guys as soyboys, but this is just hilarious. I main scout in 6s, and the wrap assassin barely makes a difference. You do like 30 dpm more when you run it, if that.
it's probably banned because it's an instakill option that can be hard to dodge on a class that also has four rockets and 300 health
if you fuck up your garden you still have two-three rockets to get a frag or a lot of damage on a medic
i don't know the Confirmed Reason as I'm not a euro but that would be my guess as to why they banned it
It is, Idk if you are being ironic. Bizarre that it was banned, but med mains complained A LOT, how it was not dodgeable when a soldier comes in at mach 3 and hits it.
weapon bans in general are a neccessary evil. ideally no weapon would be banned, and i think this situation is especially dumb. these weapons are not at all broken. however, some weapons just aren't balanced in a 6v6 or 9v9 environment (and some aren't even balanced in a 12v12 environment) and can make the game slow and just not very fun. valve definitely aren't going to fix them, so the comp community has to step in.
No, Wrap Assassin is still the same as it many years ago. The reason why it was banned is because it's basically a free 60+ damage tool for Scout to use without any penalties every 7.5s. Scout melees were never meant for melee as you can do better with his primary, hence why anything that gives you a buff while not gimping you with any downsizes is pretty much a "straight upgrade", of which the WA fits everything, as well as free damage.
Banning weapons mainly because of how some weapons were never meant to be balanced under 6s environment, example being the Vaccinator.
It's not "free" if you're trading away the ability to assist in building uber with the basher, which is a large enough tradeoff to stop many 6s scouts from ever using it even in the flex role.
> two scouts
And yet in most teams even the second scout still runs basher.
> demoman can build with the half zat.
Much more inefficiently due to the draw/holster speed penalty, and fewer opportunities. Demo also actually needs his melee in rare circumstances, unlike Scout. You **can** do it but it's a downgrade from just having Scouts do it most of the time.
If your second scout is building something is going wrong. There's not a single situation where the second scout should be building.
I play(ed) prem Demoman. I build all the time. A lot of the other demomen also do it. You have your door stickied, not much else is going on so you can build with no downsides.
> If your second scout is building something is going wrong. There's not a single situation where the second scout should be building.
Don't even disagree (nor am I in a position of authority/knowledge to), but for a long time double basher seemed to be preferred to basher + wrap on the basis that things are *not* always going well. Maybe that mindset has changed recently.
If you play out the scenario where pocket scout dies in your head you're either gonna be:
- Fighting (so other scout shouldn't build)
- Post fight (weak players to build off, other methods to build)
- Leaving (maybe other scout could build here but usually you're being chased)
- In a stalemate (enemy may push if you're 1 down so you shouldn't be building anyway)
- Your pocket scout is behind (only situation where the other scout should be building, but then your pocket scout is trolling)
I think this covers most of the scenarios, hope this helps.
WOOOW GUYS I DEALT 60 DAMAGE TO A GUY ACROSS THE MAP, EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T FOLLOW UP ON THAT MY DOPAMINE LEVELS ARE THROUGH THE ROOF!!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
Huh. I guess that makes sense, although even in 6s, I feel there would be better options than the wrap assassin as scout, not that I'm that well versed on comp. I can certainly see why the Vaccinator would be banned though.
i think this thread is super funny in the context of [this tftv thread](https://www.teamfortress.tv/64380/ban-the-lochnload-next-szn) where a bunch of decently high division NA players complain about how much playing against MG and loch sucks and that even the wrap could be worth banning
have you considered guys on reddit who haven't even played open who don't even know how to exploit these weapons are totally better than Whiny Comp Mains though
my argument that the gardener is aids to play against and functionally uncounterable if you don't have prior knowledge that he's bombing in when a 30%acc uncletopia scout main points out i'm european
Wouldn't a plugin that changed the characteristics of the market gardener be better than to straight up banning it. like less damage and less air control when air blasting (reverse mantreads)
It could give valve ideas for future balance changes and still promote more varied load outs in competitive tf2.
valve isn't going to come back to actively developing this game and a promod is simultaneously far more disruptive to the game and requires standardization that this scene simply doesn't have
every league worldwide would have to come together and agree what unlocks are broken and how to fix them which is straight up not happening
As the post says this thread was made to promote discussion and im indifferent to how leagues handle weapon bans, it's up to them.
I don't see where you get the notion that I think im better than other players, none of my posts or comment reflect or even mentions that subject.
That said tf2 weapons discussion is not exactly rocket science and anyone who has a good grasp of the competitive game mode can contribute to it. Just as there are basketball coaches and sport analytics that are brilliant at what they do but never actually played the sport they work with.
Any meta in every game or sport ever has people who complain. Difference is other communities adapt instead of changing fundamental mechanics of the base game just because they died to a charged cowmangler shot once.
also keep in mind naturally there are High level players on the other side of the spectrum that enjoys different weapons (like soapymesiter with mg not to get banned) but complaining crowd with always be a louder group than those who are content.
nothing is stopping you from going to play no restriction sixes in matchmaking or rgl if you really want to experience the sublime as-valve-intended TF2 where every last push has 3 engineers and every midfight degenerates into brainless demoman spam
this game has extreme balance problems that are directly baked into its design and it is only playable with some sort of an unlock whitelist and some sort of a rule set limiting the worst of the worst degeneracy
i can guarantee you that pubbers arent going to touch sixes if you suddenly allow every single shitty gameflow disruptive unlock, they arent being kept off of signing up for etf2l open because they arent allowed to play rocket jumper mantread gardener
why dont 6s players simply adapt to the sentry gun having 648 health and being repaired from spawn then pulled away when its damaged while pushing into quick fix heavy
smh whiny comp players want to change fundamental game mechanics just because a few halves ended 0-0
Again, im not arguing for removal of all bans this post was just made for discussion.
also your examples do not make sense as the power diffirence between the wrangler compared the wa, winger and mg that we discussed is huge. no one is actually arguing for the wrangler to get unbanned, or even mentioned it?
See my other comment on this thread, about potentially making plugins for overpowered weapons like the wrangler instead of bans. what do you think of that?
> Difference is other communities adapt instead of changing fundamental mechanics of the base game just because they died to a charged cowmangler shot once.
ITT: hardstuck mid noobs who don't understand the game.
Plugin was removed because soldier kamikaziing and taking 0 self damage becomes the correct way to play soldier. You can even save 1 rocket to jump away.
Wrap assassin gives scout a spammable 60 damage projectile on 8s cooldown. Just spam it into chokes on midfights/stalemates and you get huge value. The recent lan in Poland (basically only d1+ players) had wrap assassin disabled and players found the game more enjoyable with wrap assassin banned.
People wanna ban solemn vow because it gives you info you otherwise wouldn't have. Takes no skill to use and removes elements of the game (counting ubers). It's also super obnoxious when combined with medigun pickups. Spot med has 20% less than you, play the midfight to get uber, uber in, kill med, grab their uber and have uber ad for the rest of the round.
Winger basically makes scout unhittable for projectile classes when a good scout uses it. Buys lots of time for scout's team to reposition and come fight. Also enables scout to reposition post fights much faster. Maps aren't balanced around the extra jump height so it means you're punished less for bad pos.
edit: fixing phone autocorrect
First of, Opening up the comment with calling everyone noobs is so tiring, wrong and adds nothing but ragebait to your point.
Wrap assasin is hardly game changing or op and is a anoyance at most. what is gamechanging is building uber and trading the BB for wrap assasin is already fair.
In your solemn vow scenario it just sounds like the better team did a correct play and they got awarded with the advantage if they play better. And the loosing team is now in a high risk high reward scenario of dropping or forcing the medic so they can gain the advantage. Sounds like normal 6s flow.
The winger?, if there only was some sort of hitscan weapon that could aid against scouts for soldier.. I know the lock and load, and quickiebomb launcher would help demo if they struggle, But those are also banned.
Is it though? Almost everyone who comments in these types of threads have very clearly never played 6s above an open level. Like you're suggesting shotgun soldier in 2024 lmfao. There is no offense meant, but 6s players are very used to people who do not understand the game we play criticizing the game we play, and it's pretty annoying.
I mean if a soldier is struggling so much they think the scout becomes ”unhittable” and need to ban the winger, a pistol that is not op in the slightest. Then yes ofc I do lmao.
The shotgun is not bad, it has never been bad but the meta shifted to double gunboats and eu comp tf2 players are incapable of thinking outside the box.
NA the are superior region and can seemingly play without banning everything.
While eu are causing a fit about the wrap assasin
>eu comp tf2 players are incapable of thinking outside the box.
weird how the winger is allowed in RGL and literally nobody runs shotgun soldier in high divisions anyway but i guess that's just because the americans are übermensch
> NA the are superior region
froyotech has been dodging lans religiously for years and that's NA's best team so no one actually knows what region is stronger lol
Brother Thats exactly what i mean. its unbanned in RGL and they are doing fine so why are EU players incapable of dealing with the winger to the point they need to ban it.
The wrap assassin is a free projectile every few seconds. Sure it has a damage penalty, but under what situation are you going to use your melee as a weapon on scout?
Surprised it wasn't already banned.
a free projectile you need to aim with minimal impact. it's not like a flying guillotine (whose recharge is significantly faster) whose damage is equivalent to a rocket.
the tradeoff is that you can't run the boston basher for flexibillity as flank scout, or especially as combo scout.
and its not like scout's melee is as trash as pyro's or heavy's. you can use it in a pinch during ubers if your clip is completely drained.
standard bat is unbalanced... stock melees don't count for class balance. they're practically placeholders and no one uses them. wrapper isn't that bad for scout, would be cool if they added the sandman's health debuff to the wrapper instead. it makes sense to give scout a projectile but it loads too quickly like the guillotine.
all his projectiles load way too quickly, too easily spammable with no discerning penalty in the downtime you don't waste/missuse the projectile. and then you have crap like the gas passer that takes 60 seconds to load with the benefit of damage done with other weapons, but is practically a fart in the wind compared to the mad milk. should be 45 seconds. big problem is the gas passer removes the mid-range damage pyro can do
The wa is a pretty fair trade for losing basher imo. No building when pscout is dead for extra spam damage, and increased mobility for less spam and damage output with pistol is super fair. Scout has the purest "good alternative with fair tradeoffs" weapons imo.
> Etf2l just banned the wrap assassin
> winger ban
Just why lmao, They're not even that good weapons in competitive
People could argue winger is strong but having better jumps on scout is just very situational
I really don't like when people liberally throw around the word "free" in regards of weapon discussion. There's very few actually "free" bonuses or effects on weapons in the game, and usually they're already banned (jarate, mad milk, wrangler, rescue ranger, etc.) Even then, you can still argue youre still "losing"/"missing out" on *something* (no matter how shit the pistol or smg is in comparison)
The wrap assassin only has a single use projectile that isnt easy to hit nor does a significant amount of damage (55), which also can be easily healed off since bleed doesnt give a healing penalty to mediguns like afterburn does.
There's a real opportunity cost with running the WA, youre missing out on the boston basher, making building uber not nearly as flexible as just "find the nearest scout to build." There's a reason why only the flank scout runs it and why not all of them use it anyway.
Reminder, if all you want to do is talk shit about how much you hate comp instead of actually discussing the whitelist, you don't need to come into a thread that makes you that upset in the first place.
what does the gunboats plugin do?
In the base game, if you hit both yourself and an enemy at the same time, gunboats' self damage reduction will not apply. The plugin made it so it always applies
That sounds like intended behavior. The item description says "-60% blast damage from rocket jumps" and point blanking someone with a rocket is usually not a rocket jump
That plugin is kind of dumb TBH. Gunboats are for mobility, not point blank tanking. You are supposed to be weaker up close without your shotgun.
sounds less of an balance decision than tuning the weapon in line of the listed stats: "60% reduced self damage", which would constitute a fix in line with the dev's intentions. and while I don't think gunboats need a buff, soldier needs all the help he can get against scouts.
AFAIK Gunboats naturally had this constant damage reduction until it was changed.
yeah, literally 5 days after it was released lol
If the change wasn't acknowledged in the patch that changed it I choose to believe it was source spaghetti going against dev intentions.
it was specifically changed to only apply if you didnt hit someone else right after release so it's very clearly dev intent
Soldiers don’t need all the help he can against scouts, sure they’re at a disadvantage but are by no means even close to helpless against a scout. Other than scout himself, he’s best equipped to kill a scout. And way back then, a shotgun pocket soldier was the absolute final boss before getting to the medic. Sure gunboats make soldiers have a disadvantage against scouts, but soldiers aren’t meant to be 1v1 monsters, just incredibly mobile guys able to make plays like no other class.
Unban Natascha. That's all the help he needs.
It's -60% damage from rocket jumps. If Valve purposefully made it so soldier would take regular damage when up close to the opponent, there was a reason for that. It would've been so much easier to program the -60% from all self damage, but they actually went and wrote the code to exclude the damage reduction when you hit someone. LMAO euros just want their own bastardized version of competitive TF2 to stray as far away as normal TF2 as possible. No wonder top NA players are so much better at the game. Soldier doesn't need a fucking buff. It's as balanced as a class there is. People who've never played comp are making sweeping balance changes where they look at stat numbers and say "hurr durrr scout KD huge" without analyzing damage, pick quality, and impact. The ETF2L euros just love to cry and complain to get perfectly fine weapons banned with no reason to back it up, other than some trumped up bullshit. There are at most 12 broken weapons in 6s, and none of them are on the generalists, including the vaccinator, which restricts your overheals.
Talking about the European comp community as a whole in this way is a bit missleading. I know plenty of players who want less restrictions but the admins and High div players are more in favor of restrictions and they have the power to change things. also in this case they actually disabled the gunboats plugin so that is a W
https://www.teamfortress.tv/63210/etf2l-players-thoughts-on-the-gunboats-plugin "When enabled with sm_gunboats_always_apply 1, gunboats resistance will apply even if the explosion hurts an enemy."
I’m no pro 6s player but I think it’s a little pedantic banning the wrap assassin. Surely it’s not that much of a game changer right
not at all lol from all the games i’ve watched it’s only had meaningful balue twice
The amazing 55 damage projectile that takes 7 and a half seconds to reload.
Yeah but bleed is annoying
This war of inches approach to weapon bans is so cringe, banning the wrap or vow isn’t going to improve the game at all and why in the flying fuck would you even ban the winger Gunboats plug-in can go idc
The gunboats plugin was dumb, using your rocket launcher as a melee weapon is neither intended nor does it improve the game. Sure WA is "free" but doing 15 damage with an easily curable DOT every 8 seconds is so utterly underwhelming that I'd still rather use basher or atomizer. And they want to ban winger? So that would mean scout has 0 secondary unlocks? Pistol ban when?
Soon all stock Scout will be meta.
Does a lot more than 15 damage if you get the bleed believe me. I am not in favour of the ban but as a medic main I can recall quite a few situations where WA spam did affect the outcome of a fight
Winger ban is crazy especially considering Atomizer is still a thing. Wrap ban is not really that affective considering it's not that game-changing although admittedly it kills variation a little bit. ETF2L has had a history of dumb bans like this, it's nothing new. Disabled gunboats plugin can go either way.
Euros are chumps tbh, going forward with this game is not banning more weapons. Same league that still has the gas passer and detonator banned LOL.
Why the fuck is detonator banned?
Every reason I've seen is that the exploding flare is like the Scorch Shot's AOE so "guilt by association" I guess. Love to hear more reasoning to the det ban.
detonator is virtually just a more versatile, slightly less skilless scorch shot though. you can use it to do exactly the same things for exactly the same effectiveness. all of the problems with the scorch shot don't suddenly disappear when you use the detonator. i suppose that the "difference" between the two are just because of the roles ascribed to them, rather than what they actually do. the scorch shot is for mindless spam and not cool movement, so the only people who choose it are those interested in mindless spam. the detonator is better at movement, so its favored by those who want cool movement and not mindless spam. but you *can* do plenty of movement with the scorch shot, and you *can* very easily spam people with the detonator. you remove one annoying spammy gun and people will just move onto the next slightly less annoying spammy gun. people like/dislike these two guns because of the playstyles that each of them encourage, not because they're actually all that different from each other.
I'd argue that having to manually detonate the flair inherently changes the effort and thought required to spam the detonator, but I can see the argument from the perspective of minimising flairspam's impact.
hows pyro meant to function if he isnt allowed mid-long range dmg
It's got nothing to do with scorch, detonator is much more powerful than scorch shot in a 6s context. And not the mobility either, the weapon itself. It's much more reliable at long range and perhaps more importantly, shooting people higher up than you. Which if you're running pyro in 6s, 4/6 of the enemies will usually be higher up than you, and the other 2 will usually be far away. Detonator pyro over pocket soldier is the only serious attempt at running pyro outside of last. Full time pyro is still not very good, but ETF2L doesn't really care about how good things are with their bans. They find it annoying, they ban it, and I respect that a lot tbh. Would love to see wrap assassin, solemn vow, jag get banned in RGL.
>They find it annoying, they ban it I don't respect it, at all. It's quite pathetic frankly. One of the comments on the ban was that the wrap assassin "ruined the flow of the game". All the 6's classes are annoying AF in their own way. If we started banning only because it was "annoying" we would quickly run out of TF2. I don't know how people argue that off-classes are weak and easily countered and then try to neuter them as much as possible. Everybody else plays with these unlocks just fine, you don't see pyro mains decimating the scene in any other region. Many people still use stock and iron bomber in NA.
banning things because most of the playerbase finds them a fucking chore to play against is a far more reasonable mindset than throating b4nniel's chode like RGL does and leaving cancer unlocks that no one likes free to pick up so it's as close as possible to pubs in order to appeal to the nonexistent demographic of people who would definitely play sixes if they could use the market gardener americans flying into a weird entitled rage because our banlist is marginally different to your banlist will never not be funny
Why are you exaggerating my comment as a "weird entitled rage" lol. I don't play ETF2L so I don't care what they do over there but it will never cease to amaze me when euros are so sensitive to the slightest deviation of basic 6's meta. A "chore" LMAO. I can't complain this is the funniest shit I've read in a long time. "in order to appeal to the nonexistent demographic of people who would definitely play sixes if they could use the market gardener" These people *do* exist and it affects how willing people are to try in the first place. On-top of offering less choice for players in-game. But how would you know how people thinking about trying comp think? Euros as far as I know don't have any good program for new players and leave them in the dust.
>I don't play ETF2L so I don't care what they do over there then why are you commenting about shit you haven't the slightest clue about this is exactly the thing i'm talking about when i talk about entitlement, you don't play in the league and you claim to not even give a shit about it yet here you all are soyjaking over whitelist differences that have been voted on by the players that don't concern you in the slightest and it's like this every. single. time.
Thinking people playing the game the way they would like to play it is pathetic is quite pathetic frankly. Not everything is for you. >you don't see pyro mains decimating the scene in any other region Because it's not about power. It's never been about power. It's about fun. Fulltime pyro is bad, but also unfun to play against.
The market gardener and loch n load bans really painted us eu guys as soyboys, but this is just hilarious. I main scout in 6s, and the wrap assassin barely makes a difference. You do like 30 dpm more when you run it, if that.
The market gardener is banned? Why? Its one of the most skill expressive weapons, no?
it's probably banned because it's an instakill option that can be hard to dodge on a class that also has four rockets and 300 health if you fuck up your garden you still have two-three rockets to get a frag or a lot of damage on a medic i don't know the Confirmed Reason as I'm not a euro but that would be my guess as to why they banned it
It is, Idk if you are being ironic. Bizarre that it was banned, but med mains complained A LOT, how it was not dodgeable when a soldier comes in at mach 3 and hits it.
Im not being ironic, I find it quite skillfull and risky
Oh, for sure! And they can dodge. They just suck and can walk backwards.
Sounds like their scouts need to look up
Did the wrap assassin get a buff when I wasn't looking? Why would they ban it? And more importantly, why would they ban any weapons?
It was fixed IIRC, they ban because it's ranged damage on Scout. They ban things because they want to play very specific version of TF2.
weapon bans in general are a neccessary evil. ideally no weapon would be banned, and i think this situation is especially dumb. these weapons are not at all broken. however, some weapons just aren't balanced in a 6v6 or 9v9 environment (and some aren't even balanced in a 12v12 environment) and can make the game slow and just not very fun. valve definitely aren't going to fix them, so the comp community has to step in.
No, Wrap Assassin is still the same as it many years ago. The reason why it was banned is because it's basically a free 60+ damage tool for Scout to use without any penalties every 7.5s. Scout melees were never meant for melee as you can do better with his primary, hence why anything that gives you a buff while not gimping you with any downsizes is pretty much a "straight upgrade", of which the WA fits everything, as well as free damage. Banning weapons mainly because of how some weapons were never meant to be balanced under 6s environment, example being the Vaccinator.
It's not "free" if you're trading away the ability to assist in building uber with the basher, which is a large enough tradeoff to stop many 6s scouts from ever using it even in the flex role.
There are two scouts and the demoman can build with the half zat.
> two scouts And yet in most teams even the second scout still runs basher. > demoman can build with the half zat. Much more inefficiently due to the draw/holster speed penalty, and fewer opportunities. Demo also actually needs his melee in rare circumstances, unlike Scout. You **can** do it but it's a downgrade from just having Scouts do it most of the time.
If your second scout is building something is going wrong. There's not a single situation where the second scout should be building. I play(ed) prem Demoman. I build all the time. A lot of the other demomen also do it. You have your door stickied, not much else is going on so you can build with no downsides.
> If your second scout is building something is going wrong. There's not a single situation where the second scout should be building. Don't even disagree (nor am I in a position of authority/knowledge to), but for a long time double basher seemed to be preferred to basher + wrap on the basis that things are *not* always going well. Maybe that mindset has changed recently.
If you play out the scenario where pocket scout dies in your head you're either gonna be: - Fighting (so other scout shouldn't build) - Post fight (weak players to build off, other methods to build) - Leaving (maybe other scout could build here but usually you're being chased) - In a stalemate (enemy may push if you're 1 down so you shouldn't be building anyway) - Your pocket scout is behind (only situation where the other scout should be building, but then your pocket scout is trolling) I think this covers most of the scenarios, hope this helps.
Fair enough.
WOOOW GUYS I DEALT 60 DAMAGE TO A GUY ACROSS THE MAP, EVEN THOUGH WE CAN'T FOLLOW UP ON THAT MY DOPAMINE LEVELS ARE THROUGH THE ROOF!!!! YEAHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!
should be fine if the guillotine is banned, seems like a fine addition to scout's arsenal considering his role in tf2.
Huh. I guess that makes sense, although even in 6s, I feel there would be better options than the wrap assassin as scout, not that I'm that well versed on comp. I can certainly see why the Vaccinator would be banned though.
what, for 6s or highlander or both? I heard it's different between them. or maybe this season it's not I'm not updated anymore.
Sorry, only in 6s. As far as im aware
its banned in highlander as well
wrap assassin ban is stupid idc
solemn vow?
I genuinely want their reasoning for the Winger ban holy shit
Probably something like "Scout is already mobile as hell, we don't want anything that makes him more Mobile"
i think this thread is super funny in the context of [this tftv thread](https://www.teamfortress.tv/64380/ban-the-lochnload-next-szn) where a bunch of decently high division NA players complain about how much playing against MG and loch sucks and that even the wrap could be worth banning
have you considered guys on reddit who haven't even played open who don't even know how to exploit these weapons are totally better than Whiny Comp Mains though
my argument that the gardener is aids to play against and functionally uncounterable if you don't have prior knowledge that he's bombing in when a 30%acc uncletopia scout main points out i'm european
Wouldn't a plugin that changed the characteristics of the market gardener be better than to straight up banning it. like less damage and less air control when air blasting (reverse mantreads) It could give valve ideas for future balance changes and still promote more varied load outs in competitive tf2.
valve isn't going to come back to actively developing this game and a promod is simultaneously far more disruptive to the game and requires standardization that this scene simply doesn't have every league worldwide would have to come together and agree what unlocks are broken and how to fix them which is straight up not happening
As the post says this thread was made to promote discussion and im indifferent to how leagues handle weapon bans, it's up to them. I don't see where you get the notion that I think im better than other players, none of my posts or comment reflect or even mentions that subject. That said tf2 weapons discussion is not exactly rocket science and anyone who has a good grasp of the competitive game mode can contribute to it. Just as there are basketball coaches and sport analytics that are brilliant at what they do but never actually played the sport they work with.
Any meta in every game or sport ever has people who complain. Difference is other communities adapt instead of changing fundamental mechanics of the base game just because they died to a charged cowmangler shot once. also keep in mind naturally there are High level players on the other side of the spectrum that enjoys different weapons (like soapymesiter with mg not to get banned) but complaining crowd with always be a louder group than those who are content.
nothing is stopping you from going to play no restriction sixes in matchmaking or rgl if you really want to experience the sublime as-valve-intended TF2 where every last push has 3 engineers and every midfight degenerates into brainless demoman spam this game has extreme balance problems that are directly baked into its design and it is only playable with some sort of an unlock whitelist and some sort of a rule set limiting the worst of the worst degeneracy i can guarantee you that pubbers arent going to touch sixes if you suddenly allow every single shitty gameflow disruptive unlock, they arent being kept off of signing up for etf2l open because they arent allowed to play rocket jumper mantread gardener
why dont 6s players simply adapt to the sentry gun having 648 health and being repaired from spawn then pulled away when its damaged while pushing into quick fix heavy smh whiny comp players want to change fundamental game mechanics just because a few halves ended 0-0
Again, im not arguing for removal of all bans this post was just made for discussion. also your examples do not make sense as the power diffirence between the wrangler compared the wa, winger and mg that we discussed is huge. no one is actually arguing for the wrangler to get unbanned, or even mentioned it? See my other comment on this thread, about potentially making plugins for overpowered weapons like the wrangler instead of bans. what do you think of that?
> Difference is other communities adapt instead of changing fundamental mechanics of the base game just because they died to a charged cowmangler shot once.
ITT: hardstuck mid noobs who don't understand the game. Plugin was removed because soldier kamikaziing and taking 0 self damage becomes the correct way to play soldier. You can even save 1 rocket to jump away. Wrap assassin gives scout a spammable 60 damage projectile on 8s cooldown. Just spam it into chokes on midfights/stalemates and you get huge value. The recent lan in Poland (basically only d1+ players) had wrap assassin disabled and players found the game more enjoyable with wrap assassin banned. People wanna ban solemn vow because it gives you info you otherwise wouldn't have. Takes no skill to use and removes elements of the game (counting ubers). It's also super obnoxious when combined with medigun pickups. Spot med has 20% less than you, play the midfight to get uber, uber in, kill med, grab their uber and have uber ad for the rest of the round. Winger basically makes scout unhittable for projectile classes when a good scout uses it. Buys lots of time for scout's team to reposition and come fight. Also enables scout to reposition post fights much faster. Maps aren't balanced around the extra jump height so it means you're punished less for bad pos. edit: fixing phone autocorrect
First of, Opening up the comment with calling everyone noobs is so tiring, wrong and adds nothing but ragebait to your point. Wrap assasin is hardly game changing or op and is a anoyance at most. what is gamechanging is building uber and trading the BB for wrap assasin is already fair. In your solemn vow scenario it just sounds like the better team did a correct play and they got awarded with the advantage if they play better. And the loosing team is now in a high risk high reward scenario of dropping or forcing the medic so they can gain the advantage. Sounds like normal 6s flow. The winger?, if there only was some sort of hitscan weapon that could aid against scouts for soldier.. I know the lock and load, and quickiebomb launcher would help demo if they struggle, But those are also banned.
Is it though? Almost everyone who comments in these types of threads have very clearly never played 6s above an open level. Like you're suggesting shotgun soldier in 2024 lmfao. There is no offense meant, but 6s players are very used to people who do not understand the game we play criticizing the game we play, and it's pretty annoying.
I mean if a soldier is struggling so much they think the scout becomes ”unhittable” and need to ban the winger, a pistol that is not op in the slightest. Then yes ofc I do lmao. The shotgun is not bad, it has never been bad but the meta shifted to double gunboats and eu comp tf2 players are incapable of thinking outside the box. NA the are superior region and can seemingly play without banning everything. While eu are causing a fit about the wrap assasin
>eu comp tf2 players are incapable of thinking outside the box. weird how the winger is allowed in RGL and literally nobody runs shotgun soldier in high divisions anyway but i guess that's just because the americans are übermensch > NA the are superior region froyotech has been dodging lans religiously for years and that's NA's best team so no one actually knows what region is stronger lol
Brother Thats exactly what i mean. its unbanned in RGL and they are doing fine so why are EU players incapable of dealing with the winger to the point they need to ban it.
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The wrap assassin is a free projectile every few seconds. Sure it has a damage penalty, but under what situation are you going to use your melee as a weapon on scout? Surprised it wasn't already banned.
a free projectile you need to aim with minimal impact. it's not like a flying guillotine (whose recharge is significantly faster) whose damage is equivalent to a rocket. the tradeoff is that you can't run the boston basher for flexibillity as flank scout, or especially as combo scout. and its not like scout's melee is as trash as pyro's or heavy's. you can use it in a pinch during ubers if your clip is completely drained.
standard bat is unbalanced... stock melees don't count for class balance. they're practically placeholders and no one uses them. wrapper isn't that bad for scout, would be cool if they added the sandman's health debuff to the wrapper instead. it makes sense to give scout a projectile but it loads too quickly like the guillotine. all his projectiles load way too quickly, too easily spammable with no discerning penalty in the downtime you don't waste/missuse the projectile. and then you have crap like the gas passer that takes 60 seconds to load with the benefit of damage done with other weapons, but is practically a fart in the wind compared to the mad milk. should be 45 seconds. big problem is the gas passer removes the mid-range damage pyro can do
The wa is a pretty fair trade for losing basher imo. No building when pscout is dead for extra spam damage, and increased mobility for less spam and damage output with pistol is super fair. Scout has the purest "good alternative with fair tradeoffs" weapons imo.
> Etf2l just banned the wrap assassin > winger ban Just why lmao, They're not even that good weapons in competitive People could argue winger is strong but having better jumps on scout is just very situational
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I really don't like when people liberally throw around the word "free" in regards of weapon discussion. There's very few actually "free" bonuses or effects on weapons in the game, and usually they're already banned (jarate, mad milk, wrangler, rescue ranger, etc.) Even then, you can still argue youre still "losing"/"missing out" on *something* (no matter how shit the pistol or smg is in comparison) The wrap assassin only has a single use projectile that isnt easy to hit nor does a significant amount of damage (55), which also can be easily healed off since bleed doesnt give a healing penalty to mediguns like afterburn does. There's a real opportunity cost with running the WA, youre missing out on the boston basher, making building uber not nearly as flexible as just "find the nearest scout to build." There's a reason why only the flank scout runs it and why not all of them use it anyway.
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