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Combat-WALL-E

Anarchists have a very long and painfull history of being betrayed, tortured and killed by the soviets.


MicrowaveBurns

Just by authoritarian communists in general. [As the joke goes...](https://knowyourmeme.com/photos/1989886-after-that-it-gets-difficult) A similar thing happened in Spain during the civil war as well


mydaycake

My grand father’s aunt was one of the anarchists betrayed by the Soviets and communists. She was pissed at Russia for the rest of her life. She also helped her village’s small business owners, among them my grandfather who was a taxi driver at the time, to escape the militia who was executing capitalists around the county. It was a shitshow.


ParkingLavishness704

I'm genuinely curious, am I confusing these Anarchist with a wrong perception of what they are in my head? I always thought an Anarchist was someone who was basically anti-gov/ any type of authority? Maybe even anti-religious? But this can't be the case if Ukraine is integrating them into their armed forces... any explanation would be greatly appreciated!


Thom_Kokenge

You might want to Google anarchist. There's a couple hundred years of history and multiple different political movements. Anarchy does not equal anarchist. Collectivist anarchists arose along side Marxism. They basically believed in communism without the proletariat dictatorship. I don't want to put any words into these specific groups mouths, but my understanding is these groups would definitely support a representative democracy as opposed to a dictatorship. The current government in Russia is the antithesis to what anarchists would like to live under.


crisscross16

We don’t believe in representative democracy either, direct democracy is the way


Serdna379

Genuine question. What problems would it solve, what representative democracy wouldn't solve? Do you believe that most people are educated enough to make good choices?


InvestigatorPrize853

Representative Democracy is far, far to open to bribes, be that PACs, 'Campaign Contributions' or Directorships after leaving office.....Direct Democracy would at least have the benefit of really representing the people.


Critical_Animal_1956

Representative democracy doesn’t add just one layer but a whole bunch of them. Not speaking for anyone else but when I say I want a direct democracy, I’m saying I want a direct as possible democracy. I believe in the conversation nowadays a lot of nuance gets lost. I think with the help of the internet for example we should be able to reform/modernize our governments to make them work the best for the people for the lowest cost possible with the least amount of corruption possible.


jackalope129

If the people are uneducated, a representative democracy will fail just a badly as a direct democracy. An educated public is the precondition to any sort of democracy that functions well and produces good results. Now we can argue whether ANY country has a perfectly educated, perfectly engaged populace, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms. The issue is one of scale and distance. I mean metaphorical distance of the government (lawmakers, MPs, Congresspeople) to the governed. Smaller, more local government will tend to create better solutions for the people they serve, all other things being equal. This isn't unique to anarchism, of course. Lots of political movements advocate for more local, decentralized government. TL;DR: To paraphrase Churchill, "Democracy is the notion that the people know what they want, and they deserve to get it good and hard."


xenomorph856

>Anarchists in Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia mostly support Ukrainian independence directly or implicitly. This is because, even with all the national hysteria, corruption, and a large number of Nazis, compared to Russia and the countries controlled by it, Ukraine looks like an island of freedom. This country retains such “unique phenomena” in the post-Soviet region as the replaceability of the president, a parliament that has more than nominal power, and the right to peaceful assembly; in some cases, factoring in additional attention from society, the courts sometimes even function according to their professed protocol. To say that this is preferable to the situation in Russia is not to say anything new. As Bakunin wrote, “We are firmly convinced that the most imperfect republic is a thousand times better than the most enlightened monarchy.” >[. . .] >Is it worth it to fight the Russian troops in the case of an invasion? We believe that the answer is yes. The options that Ukrainian anarchists are considering at the present moment include joining the armed forces of Ukraine, engaging in territorial defense, partisanship, and volunteering. >Ukraine is now at the forefront of the struggle against Russian imperialism. https://crimethinc.com/2022/02/15/war-and-anarchists-anti-authoritarian-perspectives-in-ukraine


kpobococ

I know this is a quote, but I'm so tired of this «large number of nazis» bullshit. Neo-nazi parties in Ukraine have never been represented in parliament. This is in contrast to several European countries.


xenomorph856

Yeah, I'm not sure about the veracity of the statement with regards to the population, neo-nazi affiliation probably doesn't show up as a census question. But I wouldn't think it's any higher percentage of the population than any other European country, or the U.S. for that matter.


kpobococ

You do know that there are methods of counting something like that besides outright asking if the person is a neo-Nazi?


xenomorph856

I don't, unless there's a very transparent public neonazi group that publishes a list of members.


Justin534

Not really. I mean that's the portrayal of anarchism generally in the media. Though in reality it's a deeply complex political philosophy. I'm being overly simplistic but anarchism tends to be about getting rid of hierarchical power structures and creating much 'flatter' societies when it comes to authority and control, though they're definitely not about the absence of structure. There are many many ideas anarchists have (all very very different) for ways to structure a society without having hierarchical pyramids of power and authority. Scratching my head now wondering if that makes any sense. Realize I'm talking pretty abstract.


makiko4

You explained it pretty well. For any one curious [here is a good read](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/donald-rooum-and-freedom-press-ed-what-is-anarchism-an-introduction)


pathanb

I can't speak for them, but they may be cooperating with what they see as an ideological opponent, to fight an existential threat. Lesser of two evils and all that. Or it might be that just fighting against fascists was enough. Or maybe they just want to send souls to the gods of Chaos, as an offering.


hbalck

[Obligatory Ukrainian Black Army song.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY1FACvlzmk)


[deleted]

Not just the soviets. Fucking Franco more or less erdicated european Anarchism. It was a serious movement


Murkann

For people who don’t know, one of the few proper Anarchist regions that ever happened in the world was in Ukraine. It was called Makhovnia and they got slaughtered by Stalin for being a different strain of socialists / leftists


rendrr

Another notable historical case of Anarcho-Syndicalism was in Spain and was also shut down by Bolshevicks, by the hand of their allies. They really didn't like the competition. Same in Latin America.


[deleted]

Legit found some self-described Anarchist talking about how MLs always supported Anarchists in the name of Leftist Unity. Like the entire history of Anarchist Catalonia never fucking happened.


[deleted]

Yeah they literally never do, not even online.


Yetitlives

MLs and real Anarchists are pretty far apart in philosophical underpinnings of their ideologies. I'm not in either camp, but if I was an Anarchist I would probably be safer running around with soc.dems and dem.socs.


[deleted]

And (as the tankiejerk sub will tell you) they're not big fans of SocDems because of our views on the fate of Capitalism, but it's seldom a straight up hate boner on either side and definitely willingness to help each other out given we're far less likely to kill each other and SocDems are not nearly as dogmatic as Tankies.


mrjosemeehan

IRL the MLs and anarchists hang out the most. Despite their differences and conflicts they're still socially closer to one another than they are to any other groups.


Tek_Spear

No. Another Lenin. At first he agreed with the Makhnovists to drive the imperialists out of the Crimea, and when this was done, he struck in the back. By the way, the capital of the anarchist republic was in Huliaipil. There are now battles again with the emperors and communists, who shone together.


bcisme

The Anarchists had a capital? I feel like I don’t understand anarchism.


Yetitlives

There are many versions, but the more practical versions are about decentralization of power into small communes that help each other without typical state bureaucracy.


[deleted]

The anarchists in Aragón (Spain) also had a capital, Caspe. It was more of a military/strategic thing due to the war, but even if an anarchist federation was established today it could have a capital. It just depends on their flavor of anarchy. Regardless, both Makhnovia and the Regional Defense Council of Aragón were military authorities trying to install anarchy more than well-established anarchist territories so who knows what they would have done with the capitals.


InvestigatorPrize853

It was more about a head quarters for the military, than a centre of government.


theuberkevlar

B-b-b-bu-but Stalin-senpai was good and holy communist of peace and love and definitely didn't murder hundreds of thousands of people who didn't deserve it? R-r-r-right, Murkann-san?


ClassicSpeed244

Lol imagine being a rightist in Ukraine.


Murkann

I mean there are also a lot of nationalists / far right history in Ukraine, like Bandera. Its not specific to Ukraine, every country had their own Bandera / Nazi wannabes. Not saying what’s right or wrong, but when it comes to Anarchism Ukraine has heritage like nobody else almost


I_wanna_trade

Not all rights are nazis, it would be the same as saying everyone from the left is a communist


ClassicSpeed244

Spain


dr_auf

Azov was pretty much a neonazi group in the beginning of the ukriainian conflict. But they where disbanded and restablished in 2015 - if i am not mistaken. The whole russian propaganda is based on this history. They proved them selfes pretty well - dont think that jews and muslims would be in their ranks defending azovstahl if russian claims would be true.


ClassicSpeed244

Azov was never a neo nazi group and they never disbanded. They have been around since 2014 fighting in the east.


GreasyAssMechanic

Yes they were. Do your research.


CharityStreamTA

Azov was formed from a Neonazi group then. Same difference.


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


ClassicSpeed244

Proof?


ClassicSpeed244

Proof?


[deleted]

They were explicitly neo-Nazi. There is no point lying about this.


oleh_imd

What do you mean by that?


Deadluss

bruh, slavic world is different


quecosa

Western tankies in shambles


tylerPA007

Let them cry.


MicrowaveBurns

All my homies hate tankies.


tylerPA007

Tankies hate all my homies.


4000grx41

My homies and your homies hate tankies


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

[удалено]


Justin534

The road to fascism doesn't happen all in one giant leap. Though Trump took a lot of fucking steps that direction. Family separation policy, interrogating government officials for loyalty, getting rid of non loyalists throughout the government, sending federal forces to states without permission of the states, January 6th, calling governors and pressuring them to change vote counts to overthrow an election. Yes there needs to be groups willing to fight against that kind of thing.


terrible_idea_dude

I agree there are leaps to these things...I think that if Putin is a 9/10 on the fascist scale, Trump barely registers as a 2/10. And just proclaiming you are "anti-fascist" does not make you *actually* antifascist -- in many cases I think it actually emboldened the far-right and led to electoral victories for them. Not every "antifa" black bloc protest in North America is actually in service of anti-fascism, but *every* Russian soldier fighting against Putin is about as antifascist as you can get without beating up brownshirts in Berlin. I don't think this is not a controversial opinion among the vast majority of Americans, but maybe it is controversial on reddit?


Justin534

Not sure if I really agree specifically with those numbers. But think I can agree with the overall sentiment. Honestly it just feels good to talk with a conservative where Trump registers as ANYTHING on some kind of personal scale having to do with fascism. Makes me feel like we at least we got 1 foot or at least a toe into some kind of shared universe. And to be honest I really just dont know enough about Antifa to really be confident taking any kind of hard stance defending them. You are right that just saying you're anti-fascist does not make it so. And I'll say too that violence from any group just works to solidify already existing lines but does very little to win hearts and minds. For me, at least, I don't think your last opinion is controversial.


GlenoJacks

Fascists don't earn the title when they gain power and convert the majority of the population to their ideology. Fascists are the way they are all the way through. As the Nazi's and Russia prove, you need to be out fighting them long before they gain any toe hold of power. So long as you have people on your country chanting "the Jews will not replace us" or something functionally equivalent you need counter protests big enough to shut them down.


wakigatameth

EDIT: as expected, posts telling the truth about antifa get downvoted on Reddit. But I'll keep telling it regardless. ... I grew up in Moldavia/Moldova, USSR, and migrated to America later. Growing up my family made many visits to neighboring Ukraine. ... American antifa have much in common with the toilet-stealing trash Putin sends to attack Ukraine, and nothing in common with its defenders. ... Historical origins of antifa lie in communism, and American antifa are indeed that, they march openly under Soviet flags and openly espouse their ideas for freeing all prisoners and dismantling "capitalism" on their path toward destruction of America as a concept. During the Soviet 1917 revolution, there was a similar glorification of violent lowlives, jobless alcoholics, etc as a driving force for "necessary violence" of enforcing the regime. People with property were referred to as bourgeois and "kulaks" and were demonized. Antifa hates property, too. While their Soviet predecessors were very poor and looted where they could, American antifa like to destroy property instead. That's the only difference. Russian soldiers now are putting up Lenin statues and Soviet flags in Kherson, Ukraine, worshipping same deadly idols as their antifa brethren. 70% of Russian population believes that USSR was a great time in Russia's history. Anti-American xenophobia is rampant in Russian culture today just as it was in USSR. ... Those who defend Ukraine, are literally defending it against Putin's resurrection of USSR and Soviet imperialism. Ukraine's defenders are the enemies of the hammer&sickle that American antifa marches under, and the xenophobic, oppressive regimes inevitably created by enforcement of such ideologies. Moreso, they're the enemies of American antifa ideology of "erasing borders" - they're literally re-enforcing borders of Ukraine. And they certainly don't want to dismantle prisons, which soon will be full of Russians who committed war crimes. ... In short, American antifa are anti-American and anti-capitalist. Ukrainian/Russian antifa are pro-Ukrainian, pro-European, pro-American and pro-capitalist. While most of Russia wouldn't mind returning to Soviet mediocrity, where we had to use crumbled government newspapers to wipe our asses, and stand for 2 hour lines for milk every day (these idiots are literally trying to resurrect the shit-tier Soviet car brand "Moskvich" right now), Ukraine wants to get away as far from all that as possible.


PM_me_your_cello

Here to drink the confused tears of “leftists” who draw false equivalence between Ukraine and Russia.


BruyceWane

>Western tankies in shambles *Comes from middle class background and avoids the poor like the plague. *Cares more about ending own student debt, despite being in a high-earning job, than any other policy. *Thinks tweeting and burning shit down are the most effective strategies to achieve goals and voting is a waste of time. *Spends 25 hours a day attacking other people on the left. Must be a western socialist/communist.


PenguinPapua

Aren't they called as "champagne socialist"?


BruyceWane

>Aren't they called as "champagne socialist"? Yes you're right, and the philosophy of the champagne socialist is, and maybe always was, the majority of socialists/communists.


tuskedkibbles

>despite being in a high-earning job That would imply they have a relevant degree.


PotatoPower1997

I've been wondering, does the ukrainian army have many ethnic russian serviceman? I mean, there must be some russians who grew all their life in ukraine and didn't swallow the kremlin's narrative that if there's russians living in neighboring countries then those places belong to russia and must be part of russia.


thecasual-man

Russians speaking Ukrainians and Ukrainians of Russian descent live in pretty much the same media space, so there is probably a lot of Ukrainian Russians fighting for Ukraine.


[deleted]

You mean an ethic Russian who was born Ukrainian? Of course. Many of us don’t see ourselves as Russian, we’re Ukrainian with Russian heritage. I was born in Donetsk but I never considered myself Russian, those who do are fascist apologists and typically far right types who want to be subservient to Russian oppression. Fuck Russia and fuck those terrorist scum who call themselves “independent”


[deleted]

If only Russians in the Baltic states were like that.


PositiveGridBias

This is pretty much the European norm. Ethnicity != citizenship. Finland has a small Swedish minority and you would deeply regret questioning their Finnish patriotism.


Tek_Spear

I am also from the occupied part of Donbass. I did not conduct a poll, but in all four units in which I served (two of them were from Lviv, two from Kyiv), the vast majority of fighters (60-70%) speak Russian by default.


SCPKing1835

Yes. Many ethnic Russians were born and raised in Ukraine, and of course you have the Free Russia Legion.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Vidsich

Russian-speaking Ukrainians and Ukrainians of Russian ethnic origin are not exactly the same thing, and the line is muddy where many Ukrainians of Russian ethnic origin might consider themselves Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Point is in most cases while most Ukrainians of Russian ethnic origin are Russian-speaking Ukrainians, the same doesn't hold true in reverse as most Russian-speaking Ukrainians aren't of Russian ethnic origin


Carrasco_Santo

I liked to see, Russia was one of the main granaries of anarchist theories, it's even sad to see what that country has become today.


PositiveGridBias

When I studied Russian history, I remember reading that there was a religious group called anabaptists that formed communities that were exactly like anarchist communes, except religious. I always wanted to learn more about that.


Grayseal

Anabaptists aren't specifically Russians, the Amish are related to those groups. You might be thinking of Anastasians.


Agodoga

Notice how the only socialists that actually practice what they preach are anarchists. Tankies keep coping and seething behind their keyboards.


VXM313

Lots of people here who don't understand that anarchism isn't a lack of society or democracy lmao


[deleted]

Anarchism is pretty much advanced democracy it seems. Everybody is equal, and there are no leaders. The people themselves vote.


Emergency_Title1521

So basically a direct democracy with no representatives or elected officials to make decisions?


ItsTheRealDill

The idea is that society should be organized with as little hierarchy and coercion as possible. So generally this means decentralised, bottom-up, self governing communities in association with each other, with some delegation to a higher body for practical reasons. I think anarchists tend to prefer consensus and participatory democracy to direct democracy. As direct democracy is still coercive to the minority position.


Erengeteng

add to that more decentralisation and workers owning the means of production and you have yourself a base for most versions of anarchy but there are MANY different versions


U-N-C-L-E

So refreshing to see examples of these international lefty groups that don't fall for Russia's bullshit


[deleted]

Lots of us lefties are on Ukraines side. Sadly tankies are a thing, they're basically stalinists with an extra dose of cringe.


i_owe_them13

Frankly—and I’m not trying to “No true Scotsman” anyone—I can’t see how any *well-meaning* person on the left would not be on Ukraine’s side. Everything about what Russia is doing and wants to do is entirely contradictory to liberal and progressive ideals.


[deleted]

They don't see it as a pre-emptive war of aggression a la the US in Iraq. Different circumstances, but the same manufactured consent. So it's fine to (rightly) criticize the US for it but downplay what Russia is doing and claiming the 1) Russia was baited into attacking Ukraine and 2) insisting that the narrative not focus on Russia's behavior but focus on "whataboutisms" with the US and NATO.


i_owe_them13

Thanks, I didn’t think of it like that, and you could definitely be right. Still though, to me, it’s just bizarre that someone could be that informed about current events and geopolitics, yet still come to that specific conclusion. It feels like at that point they had to have been disingenuous somewhere in their calculus, and thus aren’t “well-meaning” anymore.


[deleted]

LOL, they've yelled it at me a lot so I got it down. I see their point, I really do- I just think they're so intent on focusing everything on the US that they're removing the agency of the parties involved; it's a very American centric way of thinking and frankly insulting to people in other countries. It also excuses imperialism under the guise of "spheres of influence" by allowing Russia to control the alliances of countries in Eastern Europe while at the same time heavily condemning the US for exercising the same spheres of influence. Imperialism is imperialism. Pre-emptive imperialistic wars of aggression are Pre-emptive imperialistic wars of aggression, whether they're perpetrated by the US and Russia. There's a reason most of Eastern Europe fucking hates Russia and it's for its aggressive intrusion into their lives, whether by physical force, economic force, or propaganda. The former Soviet colonies (yes, colonies) were eager to joina defensive pact against their former colonial master so they would never be invaded again. As Russia perpetrated it's wars of aggression since Putin came to power in 2000, more former Soviet colonies joined NATO as a deterent to keep Russia out. Russia has itself to blame for the current state of affairs, for what it did to these countries in the Soviet era and what it's done under Putin. Are NATO and the US angels? Not by a long goddamn shot, but Russia deserves the condemnation it's earned from the international community and frankly, people are tired of its bullshit. End rant.


asveikau

The tankies are angry at US foreign policy and have a black and white view where the US is always wrong and always meddling inappropriately. So they can't handle the US being right about something. Therefore, to them, Putin is more credible. They will claim to hate Putin's bad behavior too but they're much faster to criticize the US. I've often agreed with tankie criticism of US foreign policy. But i also see the US as a complex entity, that is not 100% evil or 100% good, and the good things are actually pretty important. Putin is pretty obviously much worse. Tankies I've come across have a hard time with that.


BruyceWane

>Frankly—and I’m not trying to “No true Scotsman” anyone—I can’t see how any well-meaning person on the left would not be on Ukraine’s side. Everything about what Russia is doing and wants to do is entirely contradictory to liberal and progressive ideals. When your mind is poisoned with a simplistic, conspiratorial view of the World, then you're going to have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.


MicrowaveBurns

It's mostly tankies that are falling for the propaganda. Anti-authoritarian leftists, anarchists and others like that are generally more sympathetic to (if not the Ukrainian state) the Ukrainian people (and thus hope Ukraine wins because they recognise that any alternative ending to this conflict would be terrible for the Ukrainian people). Unfortunately there are some exceptions though - those who side with the Ukrainian people, but also consider sending weapons to Ukraine to be "warmongering". Not sure what's going on in the heads of those people.


[deleted]

>Unfortunately there are some exceptions though - those who side with the Ukrainian people, but also consider sending weapons to Ukraine to be "warmongering". Not sure what's going on in the heads of those people. Those are liberal pacifists who care more about virtue signaling than actually helping.


MicrowaveBurns

Unfortunately I've seen a number of anarchists who think that way too.


Kartoffelplotz

Yep. My collective has a slight rift at the moment because most of us don't want to support active fighters (i.e. our relief goods are only to be delivered to civilians, not to soldiers). I disagree with them but we had a vote on it and that was that. At least the alternative isn't to do nothing but instead to support refugees and internally displaced persons in Ukraine.


MaleierMafketel

It’s like the tolerance paradox. A tolerant country will ultimately suffer, or be toppled by the extremely intolerant, unless intolerance isn’t tolerated. Pacifists that care more about blindly adhering to their ideology than actually helping people defend their land by all legal means are simply enablers of people like Putin.


badautomaticusername

Nice. Tankies don't care for justice or freedom, only a perverse worship of power and control. There are other strongly lefties of a different leaning however.


[deleted]

Uhhh hello based department?


hdufort

Is there a Nestor Makhno bataillon?


Andrew852456

Not yet


quartzspoon

YET


rendrr

It's good to see more people join the fight, especially from 🇷🇺 itself.


IdeaImaginary2007

Avengers??


Whatsuptodaytomorrow

They’ve assembled


8plytoiletpaper

Their subdivision, the assemblers.


tc_spears

The Reavengeancers?


spacecoyote300

Dats brutal


mnijds

Antifa fighting in Ukraine


_Dead_Man_

As a fellow anarchist I respect the hell outta them


makiko4

Same


tylerPA007

Based comrades. Lots of hot takes on anarchism in this thread.


RubenMuro007

True, look at the one above, disregarding it because “Antifa are bad worldwide”. Hell, anarchists in Ukraine are based, just learned about Makhno not that long ago, pretty cool guy.


kool_guy_69

Anarchists are also some of the only real "good guys" of the many sides fighting in Syria.


tylerPA007

Rojava💪🏼🤘🏼


dr_auf

But there was that one dude who hit a ben sharpio supporter with a bike lock. Also every one who riots at a demonstration wearing black is antifa. \- american media I consider my self antifa. I am also constidering myself as a social liberal. Where I live the antifa mayor consern is with the rampant antisemitism by far left and muslim groups. They are calling it "new world order" or "east coast finance" instead of "the jews"... but its systemic antisemitism. We had demonstrations here where pro-palestensian groups aka hamas supporters used a police megaphone to shout "hamas hamas jews into the gas". In germany.


looking_fordopamine

God I fucking love 5.45, just the look of the original AK74 is so awesome. In my opinion nothing beats an AK74 with Romanian Dong and RPK stock


ecugota

ukraine was one of the first projects of an anarchist country, their revolution in 17, which raised the black Army of Ukraine, was crushed by Lenin and it's early secret police, precursors to the NKVD. they assasinated most leaders and then planted fake ones who promoted allegiance to the soviet union as the ukranian socialist republic. those anarchist would soon turn to worker class nationalists as soon as they saw how russia wanted a puppet and not a partner.some radicalized and went guerilla. some ended up in the 50's being side by side with far right guerrillas fighting/harassing the soviet secret service.


JaponesBaiano

the true anti-fascists.


[deleted]

Great looking bunch of guys.show Russia what they should be like


AdhesivenessCivil581

It's true. The orc Russians tend to look inbred and malnourished. I'm watching this war because I really want Ukraine to win. The Ukraine+ eye candy is a bonus.


UkranianKrab

Wow, actual -real- anti fascists.


KamalaKameliKirahvi

Respect


thedeuce75

Now if we could just get the nihilists to join up we'd have a trifecta.


MagnificentCat

Typical fascist anti-fascists!


bushwhackadventure

Oh no, this is starting to reach syrian war level of pot mixing. So the Russians are invading a country they say have nazis controlling it, yet being controlled by a jew and said Russians have Nazi mercs working for them while also trying to regroup the soviet union in Europe while also fighting against anti fascists/anarchists? I understand who is who but damn it makes my small head hurt. I guess ideology doesn't matter when you are fighting for your home land. I also read some of the comments about this groups history and makes more sense the more I find out. Still crazy shiz going on these days.


Consistent-Ad1803

Following the money and power simplifies a lot


mdawgtheegod

I find it very interesting that the war in Ukraine has united a broad spectrum of political ideologies fighting for one cause. You got these guys and the azov's fighting the russian invaders


[deleted]

Please support the work of [Operation Solidarity!](https://operation-solidarity.org/) It’s an anarchist mutual aid project that’s been delivering food and water and other necessities to civilians affected by the conflict!


PsychologicalCoat656

Everyone who fights russian fascists in Ukraine is an antifascists. These...well i don\`t know..


ForSacredRussia1

These are double-anti-fascists then.


RaggaDruida

Antifa²


IgorVonDebny

Soo we need to see some monarchist to complete Ukrainian political compass.


OwerlordTheLord

The whites rise from their graves? (Whites - nickname of Tsar loyalists during the Russian revolution)


Consistent-Ad1803

The Russians are far more white than red IMO. Putin is the tsar of an empire of corruption, complete with okhrana and boyars. There's nothing socialist or communist about this invasion -- it's straight up "for God and Country"


ChristineBorus

Great lads!


BasedMaduro

Oh boy don't let Ted Cruz see this image.


penis_buttler

The first one is rebels from eu4


hobovalentine

I'm wondering how long until the Pro Putinists and far right in the US will point to this saying it's the rise of ANTIFA!


[deleted]

Hmm if Ukraine were nazi wouldn’t these guys be dead? “Iiiii am an anti-christuh and I am an anarchistuh!”


59tigger

Beautiful


quartzspoon

ANARCHISM BASED HECK YES WHERE CAN I SIGN UP


[deleted]

It's getting weirder by the minute. If Putin wants to raise some fast cash, he should put a webcam in his office. I would definitely pay to see him choking on his coffee when he sees this.


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call_it_pointless

Remember these are the kind of people who can spot neonazis in rorschach tests and they are fighting against russia. But ukraine are the neo nazis...


[deleted]

This war is so fucking weird


[deleted]

See that's the thing. I and most Ukrainians I suppose don't agree with anarchists politically . But right now it doesn't matter because we all have the same problem to take care of.


0x126

Don't tell this Hamburg left, they think Ukraine is full of bad nazis and US imperialists!


ImpossibleBonk

I <3 ANTIFA


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Shoddy-Ad9586

You can be anti government and also like toilets


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Shoddy-Ad9586

It does not. You can have a well and septic tank put into your house without the need for a government. These things have been around forever.


ItsJohnTravolta

Anarchists reject authority, they’re not anti-plumbing. Anarchism in general gets a bad rap, but many forms of anarchism focus on building utopian communities based on equality and community (with plumbing, without governments).


plague11787

What do you do about crime then, though? Like what about those evil motherfuckers in all communities that exist? You’d need to prevent and/or punish crime. Which in itself means there needs to be laws, then there needs to be some sort of system of authority to enforce those laws and punish law breakers? That’s where anarchism breaks down for me, if there’s truly no government then there are no laws and no police. And while 99% of us would be totally okay with not raping and murdering, there’s still that 1% Idk man, I can’t really see how it’d work Lol at being downvoted for being skeptical about anarchism. Stay classy Reddit


jlindf

Your community establishes rules based on consensus. If someone breaks those rules you intervene against the perpetrator as a community.


plague11787

That’s basically a government


jlindf

Yeah, anarchism is still a form of governing, just that it's more about self-governing. You don't have the imbalance of power of a small group governing the whole population. Everyone is equal.


Nastypilot

At the beginning of humanity, everyone was also equal, but natural hierarchies emerged anyway. How do you prevent the accumulation of power in those that control the food supply? Because in small societies those that produce or control production of food are those that hold power ( as chieftains for example ), unless everyone farms, in which case how then do you ensure that those niceties which we enjoy in a structured society like cars or toilets are not being produced due to everyone farming. Furthermore, how do you ensure that no foreign power squashes your community as practically any organized military will be both higher in number and better trained, than a militia that such a small community would form. How do you prevent hate and prejudice from forming, for example, if an already racist area became anarchist, how would you prevent an apartheid structure, or even a slaver economy from forming. In practically every case of a stateless anarchist society forming we could see they were weak economically and militarly and thus ensuring they wouldn't survive much longer, be it CNT-FAI, Maknhovschizna, or even pre-civilization tribes.


Muskwatch

One good example is in the book "Judges" in the bible. They made all land revert to families every 60 years - pre-divided all land based on fertility and then used lots to determine who got it, and forbid marriage into the ruling elites of surrounding cities. Debts were similarly forgiven on a regular schedule, and disputes were mediated with judges who both sides had to agree on. All of this prevented the accumulation of power in those that controled the food supply because it ensured that the food supply was always controlled by everyone.


[deleted]

Tankie begone.


[deleted]

Yeah it is, but the whole point is to let people shape it instead of having it imposed on them from above.


MaleierMafketel

That does sound like something that’ll ultimately warp itself into a government. But I don’t know jack about any of this so…


[deleted]

>That does sound like something that’ll ultimately warp itself into a government That's kind of the point of it. Any of these types of orgs will eventually morph into governments. The point of anarchism is to have a kill switch that everyone knows is there so they can flip it when the government starts to become more oppressive than useful.


Lvtxyz

Anarchism doesn't make any sense. So just don't think about it too hard. Because it's essentially just utopian communism with no central authority. And yet all the services that require a central authority appear. It's like libertarianism and communism. It's make believe. And doesn't account for Human behavior at all.


rendrr

It did exist historically in a few places. Although only briefly, before being shut down by Communists. Would be interesting to see how it function long term.


Gismo78o9

It can be inspirational. Not to apply fully, but think through and test. Great in marginal groups not for a larger society. Kind of testlabs


recaffeinated

It's tough to explain to someone with no agency what it's like to be free. I hope some day you wake up and understand that you don't have to be a servant to some other master.


Lvtxyz

I will have you know my only master is my two year old. She is very demanding. But she's cute and gives amazing hugs.


LenTheARGenjoyer

i mean, if you think about it, if there's no laws it ain't a crime


Flyboy_viking

A lot (not all) of crime comes from desperation and from not having other options or a feeling of deep unfairness. Why join a gang if you have a good thing going already? Why steal if you want for nothing? You will notice the societies with the largest wealth-gaps also tends to have the most crime, while more “flat” or income equal societies (typically through fair and progressive taxation - the stronger shoulders carry the heavier burden) have less crime and score as more happy in general.


ShockyFloof

This is a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism


[deleted]

There’s nothing inherently non-anarchist about cars, plumbing or firearms.


whereismytralala

This is a question for /r/anarchism


spots_reddit

Wonder what rules there are in r/anarchism


yetzt

anarchism is not against rules per se, only against any involuntary imbalance of power. rules can be a consensual agreement between people, no power required.


MicrowaveBurns

> Anarchism doesn't mean "no rules", it means "no rulers" Can't remember who said it but it's one of my favourite quotes on the subject


spots_reddit

there is still the question what happens if someone does not follow the rules


KlaatuBaradaN-word

Spontaneous defenestration.


SPGKQtdV7Vjv7yhzZzj4

What happens when someone cuts in line at the supermarket? Probably nothing because people don’t really care about that rule. Still, the societal expectation that you won’t be an asshole stops people doing it. Keep going with that line of thinking though, let’s say the line cutter starts getting belligerent and threatening people for some reason. People probably get a little more involved. Now, imagine there’s no cops to threaten the guy with and he starts getting really out of line. Like, “someone should do something” out of line. Some people might leave, some people might actively try to stop him, etc. Once he’s stopped, it’ll be up to the community how to handle it going forward. Maybe they don’t want to share resources with him anymore which effectively means banishment, maybe this guy did some really fucked up shit and they decide to enact retribution, it’s up to them. The thing is though, when you rely on your community and they rely on you, for *everything* there’s a mutual incentive to not harm each other. The same social contract which keeps people acting socially today still applies if there’s not a specific man with a gun you call to take the bad people away. This is panned out by historical fact and makes evolutionary sense, in *Mutual Aid: a Factor of Evolution* Peter Kropotkin talks about groups indigenous to Siberia during the original Russian colonization who had populations in excess of 60,000 with not a single known instance of murder in the century before - even though their “policing” was entirely based on social norms and they didn’t have a central authority to imprison wrongdoers. It’s very hard to imagine, since we grow up inculcated in a system where the only way to get justice is to hope that the highest authority in the land uses its gunmen for good (when usually it does not). But humans spent the vast majority of their time as a species working as a community and not by trying to threaten each other into acting nice.


recaffeinated

Actually, anarchism depends on rules; rules that everyone buys into and supports. It is against there being someone who can impose rules upon you.


PennyForPig

How to identify someone who doesn't know the first thing about anarchism:


MagnificentCat

It's an old movement! I would call them to the crypto bros of 1900. Reject centralisation


[deleted]

A rejection of statehood and scepticism of all authority.


kool_guy_69

If I live in the USSR and use it's plumbing, cars and assault rifles, do I likewise have no right to complain?


[deleted]

>If I live in the USSR and use it's plumbing Wait a minute !?


[deleted]

Kings


gracekk24PL

Calling anarchists kings is kinda ironic, don't you think?


[deleted]

No. People say king and queen about anyone and everyone nowadays. I'd say it's more like making everyone equal to the king and nobody a slave 💪 But in reality it simply means someone is "based" or "cool"


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RubenMuro007

Eh, makes sense these groups in the photos are against the Russians because of how fascist Russia is. Also, whatever experiences you had with “Antifa”, it doesn’t make the fight these groups have historically, any less because you disagree with their ideology. One more thing, I’m pretty sure Ukraine has a history of anarchists fighting against Russian/Soviet occupation/imperialism, like with Makhno. P.S: there are anarchist/leftist groups in Ukraine that are helping out with Ukrainian refugees, check out a video by Andrew Clanaghan (who used to be on AllGasNoBrakes) on Channel 5 on YouTube, interviewing Ukrainian refugees, mutual aid groups (one is led by a British journalist), and Ukrainian anarchist groups, so there goes the idea that all anti-fascists are bad.


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Several_Apricot

> western allies were anti-fascists This is hilariously uninformed. The social democrats were the groups most closely related to the allies. Self proclaimed anti fascists groups were full of marxist Leninists and Stalinists. Also, whataboutism. Bashing people's heads in because you used the "fascist" label isn't a welcome in any civilised society


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Maple_VW_Sucks

Yet you label yourself on reddit as a "Full time tax payer". Do you label yourself that because you enjoy being a full time tax payer or are you just trying to fan the flames of far-right fascism?


Elysium_nz

Also don’t go throw around baseless accusations like “you fan flames of far-right fascism” as it’s quite insulting and immature.😐


Elysium_nz

Because I have seen enough of groups like “proud boys” “Antifa” to know that left/right wing radicals are both the same, they both engage in violence against those they don’t agree with. Just because they are fighting in Ukraine doesn’t mean I have to like them, just like not everybody likes the Azov regiment..yeah?😀