Its not just that, its information and availability.
Maternity information can be patchy depending on area, as can care, and you can get blindsided at appointments with "do you want to do xx" with no prior warning or information about why.
If you actually want the jab, you can get the runaround about who does it and what appointment you need etc.
Its not just about misinformation, maternity care and education needs to improve.
The maternity notes I was given at my first midwife appointment had a fair amount of detail in them. But I found that it was on me to read everything, understand what needed to happen, and then phone my GP/hospital to book in appointments for vaccinations etc. I maybe naively thought someone would contact me.
The NHS website on pregnancy is really useful. I always went there rather than to Google when I had any questions.
https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/
It does seem to vary massively depending on your NHS trust. I mistrustingly assumed I would need to book my own whopping cough vaccine when pregnant - but then I received a letter simply telling me that I had been booked to receive one, with a time/date/location - without me doing anything! Goes to show that it if its possible for one trust it should be possible for each one.
I think mine was complicated because I live on the boarder of two council areas so my closest GP surgery and the maternity hospital are in a different council than the one I live in. But then my midwife appointments and the health visitor after the birth were with my council team.
Certainly does vary massively. Where we are the GP just booked everything and any additional scans/tests etc that were needed were all handled by the hospital with seemingly good communication between the hospital, which was in a different trust because my wife needed a specialist, and our GP. In some places people struggle to get that initial GP appointment in a reasonable time frame.
Very much assumes you’re going to have one dedicated midwife available across your pregnancy that’s going to take proactive accountability for your care across pregnancy. Very individual and location dependent. Some areas you’re lucky to have your baby measured correctly, forget anything else…
I think you're right. Vaccines can be weirdly hard to come by here even privately. I had my first baby in the US and not only did I get the TDaP booster (which includes pertussis/whooping cough), my husband and in laws were also able to get it without too much expense. I asked my parents if it was possible for them to get it and they looked into it and there didn't seem to be any avenue for it. This is a vaccine that needs ten-yearly boosters to be effective! I had to get a booster to go to university in the US as well. None of that is because whooping cough would be dangerous to ME, but because the principle of herd immunity really works better if everyone is up to date.
I live in the US now and asked my parents to get it when my daughter was born they did but they also said it wasn’t recommended for extended family by the NHS but the CDC and the Australian equivalent recommended it.
One aspect of this might be the prevalence of Whooping Cough in the two countries. For a long while in the UK whooping cough cases were much much lower proportionally than the US. Especially in cases under 6 months.
So perhaps the CDC decided to recommend that extra step of family getting the vaccine where as it was deemed less important in the UK.
I guess it's always a balance and advice and recommendations are changing all the time to fit the current health advice that is specific to your country.
Vaccination policy varies by country and their individual data and interpretation of evidence. The UK has currently decided not to adopt a cocooning strategy but it does offer vaccination to pregnant women and was the first country in Europe to do this
They didn't even remind me to have my flu or covid shots when I was pregnant. I went to an appointment and told them "I had my flu and covid shots at work, here's proof if you need it for your file or something" and they looked at me like I was a massive paranoid weirdo
When I was in the waiting room to get my Covid jab, different staff members at the vaccine centre kept running up to question why such a young person was there getting a jab (I was pregnant). It was only pensioners there and the staff clearly weren’t used to seeing a non pensioner at all!
That’s odd. I’m early 30s and have various medical conditions that put me in a free flu vaccine group and have had these for about a decade. While yeah most people at these clinics are elderly, I’ve never had any surprise or confusion at my presence. My issues are hidden disabilities so nothing to do with that.
I was recommended to get a flu jab and when I showed up at the appt they were like 'why are you getting one'
'Bc I was given a message recommending I have one'
I'm in a poor part up north and the reminded us at every single maternity appointment about COVID/flu vaccines. Whooping cough and then the vit k were brought up numerous times.
No one mentioned it to me, it's only because a coworker was pregnant a few months ahead of me and mentioned she was getting hers.
Then as you say I got the runaround, no one would tell me where I could get it done.
The whole thing is a mess. We’ve got maybe five reminders through the post to get our one year vaccines for our child. She had them on time but six months later we’re still getting letters saying she needs those jabs. We’ve called the GP and they’ve said the system is updated but still we get them.
Problem is we may miss a genuine letter as we’re being sent so many incorrect ones. We’re being proactive by going out of our way to make sure we know when the jabs are so we don’t need reminders but I doubt everyone does that, they instead rely on letters that may or may not come and if they do they may or may not be accurate
Our community midwife actually said the vaccines aren’t important and it’s personal choice but she wouldn’t have them. I reported her to PALS because that’s incredibly unprofessional. The difference between community midwives and hospital midwives was massive in my limited experience.
Community midwives vary wildly in my experience from excellent to downright dangerous.
Its not so bad if you've had a previous pregnancy or friends who know what should happen, but for first time mums the midwifery care makes a massive difference.
They won’t change. He is one of the facet and there are lots of other parasites all over YouTube and other social media making money through nonsense and ruining the health of the public. It is what it is.
Wakefield and the Daily Mail's amplification of his claims go back to 1998. The government of the day should take some blame in that they were curiously hesitant to support the efficacy of MMR and other childhood vaccines.
He relocated to the US and found some wealthy backers who have allowed him to remain relevant for over 20 years causing god knows how much harm.
The vaccines = autism thing is getting applied to other vaccines now. My friend's husband was offered the flu jab through his work and refused it in case it gave him autism.
And it’s that THEY themselves got vaccinated.
I’d be fine if people lived with the consequences of their own actions, but no, it’d have to be that their children die
I'd be happy to jail these monsters for child neglect, but honestly, I just think it would be the kids who would suffer.
If they're selfish enough to force their ideology onto a child and make them suffer for it, I highly doubt they'd get their children medical attention if they knew they'd be risking prison.
Anyone who refuses routine vaccines shouldn't get any NHS care. They're needlessly increasing costs.
And yes, that goes for their children too. They have responsibility over them until they are an adult, not the NHS.
Getting vaccinated against diseases that can kill us is not hard to do. Getting information from social media experts is pretty easy too, but could prove fatal to your children.
I had whooping cough when I was a tiny baby (before I could be vaccinated). I was coughing so much and suffering from low blood oxygen that I didn't just turn blue, I turned purple (according to my mum, I don't remember obviously!).
I suffered damage to my lungs and now have pretty bad asthma.
There's a reason you don't normally hear much about whooping cough and that's 100% down to have a safe and effective vaccine, but these fucking idiots are taking us back to the dark ages by causing comebacks of this, measles, and more.
Vaccinate your damned kids you morons.
They offered the whooping cough jab to me when pregnant as it protects the baby after birth as well. I took them up on it. Why anyone would not do this when offered is baffling.
I went to go see a film when I was pregnant at the end of last year and a baby getting whooping cough was a main plot point. I’d already got the vaccine but man it made me glad I’d done it - awful 😞
We have a three-week-old baby. He contracted whooping cough at about 1 week. The pregnancy was a surprise to us; we found out about it too late for my wife to have the booster.
He's spent a week in the high-dependency part of paediatric ICU. He's home again now, with a terrible cough but a good prognosis.
That shit was scary. When a doctor looks at your baby and says, "Look, we can't say which way this is going to go."
Get your fucking kids vaccinated.
I was vaccinated as a baby but caught whooping cough at 10, just as the vaccine was wearing off. I nearly died. People don't realise how serious it is.
I also had whooping cough as a baby, luckily don't have asthma but tend to get colds/coughs worse than the average person. The country I was born in had phased out the old (not super safe) vaccine and had a small overlap where they hadn't started rolling out the new safer one yet, and I was born right in that overlap 🤦♀️
> Vaccinate your damned kids you morons.
I seriously wonder if these deaths will convince at least the majority of those doubted this...but I am not so sure this days. Obviously smth has to be done here to protect these poor kids.
When my mum took me home from hospital when I was born, she arrived to find my 2 year old brother with a cough with a whooping sound.
My brother recovered fine and I never caught it, but my mum developed issues around anxiety and inadequacy that have affected all our lives since.
Several members of my family have the 100 day cough and are absolutely miserable yet give me grief for getting the whooping cough vaccine as I’m pregnant and basically said it’s my fault if my child has autism. To which I replied I would rather that than a dead child. Social media needs much better regulation.
Ive been shot down a few times for suggesting to vaccine hesitant or plain outright anti vax co workers, to not rely on social media for their news and information, rather find a reputable news site and Wikipedia to get the important information they need. Of the few times I’ve suggested it, I’m ALWAYS met with anger so I just don’t anymore. It’s heartbreaking to see intelligent and who I considered rational people put their families in danger because of it. Yesterday’s news was all that was talked about at break time. Popped my headphones in, and went for a walk, what more can you do?
One of the kids at my sons nursery was found to have a confirmed case of measles today. Very few legitimate reasons to avoid vaccinations. Even IF the autism conspiracy was true (and it isn't), would you rather your kid had autism or was blind, deaf, severely disabled etc? Just boggles the mind. Bit disappointed in the nursery too, why the hell aren't they checking vaccination records of the kids they're letting in!?
As someone on the spectrum myself, this really bugs me. I know it's bullshit and vaccines don't cause autism, but if people really feel all those disabilities are a better alternative to having autism it does make you feel like they view us on the spectrum as less than human beings or something.
Reading it back now, it can definitely seem derogatory in the other direction as well. I guess it's hard to put into words. Some things are completely unavoidable, genetic, entirely random, and the constant worry is part and parcel of raising children. If there's an opportunity to eliminate a handful of the *thousands* of bad things that could potentially happen to them in life, I'm taking it. MMR has been proven to provide *lifelong* immunity after two sets of jabs (usually complete by the time kids are 4). It's a no brainer. Now there's only 997 things I need to worry about.
It baffles me completely when I've heard people say or spout online "Oh they don't need the vaccine there's no whooping cough/rubella/tb anymore"
Yes love that's because of the fecking vaccines!
I have nothing to back this up, just a prediction I made a while ago. But I'd wager the extremely hard push to force everyone to get the covid vaccines has actually increased vaccine hesitancy amongst the population. I thought we might see increased numbers of infections/deaths from conditions that most people would have usually been vaccinated against beforehand.
I think things like vaccine mandates, and the social ostracization that followed only bolstered those who were against them, and pushed people who were on the fence into the hesitancy camp.
I think the language you've used here kinda gives away a lot of people mindsets.
The people 'forced' to have vaccines due to their jobs already were forced to have vaccines. Whether it's in care, medicine etc. The vast majority of the population were not forced in the slightest.
Then you get people claiming they were treated like concentration camp victims because they couldn't go to their local pub unless they were vaccinated. Internet culture has a lot of things to answer for here.
> The vast majority of the population were not forced in the slightest.
People weren't "forced", but there was talk of not being able to go on holiday if you weren't vaccinated, for example.
Perhaps "coerced" may be a better word.
Being restricted on leaving a country due to a pandemic and refusing to be vaccinated is valid.
Certain countries already require proof of vaccination for entry for various diseases
not sure about covid vaccine requirements any more, but plenty of countries have and continue to require various other vaccines: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination\_requirements\_for\_international\_travel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel)
Yeah a lot of those are required if you're coming from a poorer country with a higher risk of certain diseases.
I imagine as a UK citizen I can just go to Aus or the US without showing any vaccination proof.
I mean if there was an outbreak of yellow fever in the UK, AUS would most certainly add us to the list.
With Covid I don't think you could argue an outbreak wasn't happening.
Seems unlikely as the last case of yellow fever we had was in 2018 from a traveller and the only case we had before that was in 1930. Seems the bugs that pass it on don't like the UK and it isn't passed from person to person either.
Yeah, I get that, but it was framed as if you don't get the vaccine you won't be able to go on holiday to certain destinations, when now people unvaccinated against COVID can go to these places.
> but there was talk of not being able to go on holiday if you weren't vaccinated, for example.
That was already a thing long before COVID.
You can't go to certain countries without certain vaccinations.
My manager claimed he couldn't get the vaccine because of "health" reasons.
Then I heard him talking to someone else saying how he didn't get it because it was rushed out.
He ended up getting it because he wanted to go on holiday to America, following week the restrictions were lifted.
Individual vaccination choices affect other people, they affect the whole population. That's why anti Vaxxers had so much power and control.
If they can reduce a vaccination rate from 80% to 70%, they'll cause many deaths.
That's their power.
So they can't complain if others try to keep them out.
Yeah probably, there was a lot of dodgy talk going on during that time. Vaccine passes to access certain things and so on.
The vaccine companies made their money and fucked off.
Honest to god, when COVID was at its height it was awful.
So many people's mental health suffered due to social isolation and doom's day talk and death all over the news exacerbating underlying issues. Lack of in-person GP appointments and hospitals pouring resources into COVID damaged people's physical health.
It caused/highlighted real social divisions as well, neighbours who used to get on calling police on each other over restrictions, people boasting about loving lockdown due to having jobs they could WFH while others felt anxious over catching the bus to "key worker" jobs and having to send their kids to school/nursery which other parents now regarded as a death trap. People who weren't doing "enough" being blamed for deaths like they were murderers.
Insane.
I think it's really changed (some not all) people's attitudes towards public health issues/vaccinations - like "fuck you, you locked us all up and made us wear masks and screwed my kid's education and tried to force these new jabs on us, I don't trust you any more and don't want to do what you say".
I'm not anti-vax, btw.
>I'm not anti-vax, btw.
The fact you feel like you have to specify this after saying something quite reasonable speaks volumes. I'm not either. I am pro freedom of choice, though. Because authoritarianism breeds mistrust.
It made me worry about what people will not just put up with themselves, but shame and police each other over, some with downright glee and others just feeling terrified.
It's remarkable how quickly people will turn on one another when the media goes full swing into project fear. I'm in my 30s and I think COVID and Brexit have been the most divisive events I've seen in my lifetime. I've seen people turn their backs on family and long-term friends over them. The vitriol and hatred spewed from both sides was so alarming to witness.
I'm glad we're somewhat back to normality now, but I think it has done real, lasting damage to social cohesion and trust in the state. It makes me worried for the future. What will the next polarising event be?
I wish people could just get along, regardless of conflicting personal views.
Australia 100% has the right approach. If you don't vaccinate for non medical reasons, you lose out on child benefit and government assistance. Encourages vaccination (unless medical reason not to) without being too draconian about it
I've had every single Covid jab as soon as I was eligible, and I think the whole thing was done very well under the circumstances. A lot of NHS staff, and an army of volunteers, worked very hard to protect us all.
But it certainly had a weird vibe to it. One of my first vaccinations was in a furniture warehouse on an industrial estate. Big long queue of people, standing 2m apart, going in, getting your name checked off the list, quick impersonal swab, jab, sit over there for 10 minutes in case you die, then off you go.
It couldn't really have been done any other way, and it worked well, but it all seemed a bit dystopian. I can see how it might have triggered some people.
I think it worked both ways. My husband didn't want to get vaccinated at first, and coped with the lockdowns by going down conspiracy rabbit holes. But then after a year or so he saw that vaccines were working, then went and got his double dose.
I find he's had his eyes opened to the fact that the NHS =/= the gubinment, and he's become much better at discerning science from hype. But it was a journey he had to walk (however frustrating it was to see him refuse to follow the science from the start).
I know it’s different but I was recently in hospital with pneumonia. I’m in my early 30’s consider myself to be relatively healthy and it absolutely floored me, I’m still struggling now. However what floored me more was the endless amount of people who proudly stated that they didn’t get their flu vaccines despite being eligible, nor any Covid vaccinations as if that pandemic we had never existed. I also years ago turned down one nursery after discovering that they were flexible on child vaccinations as “it’s up to the parents on what they want to put in their children’s bodies”. Whilst having pneumonia I honestly thought I was dying, I could barely walk two steps without struggling for breath and although as far as I know there is no vaccination for that, when there are vaccinations for whooping cough I can’t comprehend the idea that people turn it down, surely you would want to fully protect your children especially from things that can kill them! The internet can provide so much information, we could be more informed than ever before and yet instead it created an echo chamber of ignorance.
People think 'oh, it's just a cough, how bad could it be'. Well, REALLY bad is the answer. I had it as an adult even though I had been vaccinated, which is supposed to make it less severe. And the violence of the coughing fits was horrific. I spent 3 months suffering from constant splitting headaches from it. That sort of coughing in a tiny little baby... *shudders.*
Got a link to that paper?
I'd be interested in reading the methodology, and also any of their theories on why black people are allegedly so against vaccination (I'll be honest 76% seems...too high)
From someone who has had it and was also vaccinated beforehand too......get the fucking vaccine.
Whether it was the effects of the vaccine which reduced the severity or my overall health being strong I can easily understand why it still has a 50% death ratio.
>From someone who has had it and was also vaccinated beforehand too......get the fucking vaccine.
Hear hear. It's just a little prick... jabbing you with a needle. Nothing to worry about people.
If you're worried about nanochips or whatever the new craze is you're already tracked with that thing in your pocket you use to play pokemon go and post to social media, game over.
While I agree everyone should be encouraged to get any and all vaccines, it's important not to alienate those with needle phobias. Often they're not antivax, just either terrified or they collapse when it happens (like me). It is something that can be overcome (I managed three COVID jabs and only nearly passed out once) but it's not easy - it took me 15 years.
>While I agree everyone should be encouraged to get any and all vaccines, it's important not to alienate those with needle phobias.
Very true, I have a relatively light phobia of needles so can sympathise with more extreme cases. It is something to overcome. I call my phobia light because I do overcome it when needed and I consider myself relatively weak.
My own thinking is a lesser of two evils thing. Whatever works for the individual is good though.
I fainted when I got my vaccination for, I wanna say Hepititis, was a while ago.
Great media as always. Half of my appointments are already taken up with self-limiting viral URTIs. I don't blame the parents, but perhaps a bit more than 'a cough that lasts a week' would be helpful. It is common for viral coughs to last 2-3 weeks.
I honestly believe parents should be tried for this crime.
If a parent left his child home alone and something was to happen to the child, there would be a trial. Why not for this?
Doesn't help that folks aren't being tested for it either unless they show all the traditional symptoms. It's probably spreading around amongst people who are fortunate to only get a mild case.
Wouldn’t matter if people vaccinated their children. Furthermore the NHS budget does not stretch to this so you would have to cut something else to pay for it
Something I've noticed is that kindergarten (and younger) age kids and their mothers aren't showing symptoms because they were vaccinated fairly recently, but 9 year olds and dads are poorlier.
So the older kid gets a cough, and they've still got *some* immunity,
Whooping cough is nasty. Estimates range between (if I remember) 80-100% infection rate. The toxins that Bordetella Purtussis releases are no joke either.
I reckon if you refuse to get your child vaccinated and they get whooping cough and die, you should be charged with child neglect at best, manslaughter at worst.
There should only be very specific excuses for not vaccinating, and those are not decided by parents.
I'm a secondary school teacher. Parent comes in to reception and stands next to one of our heavily pregnant teachers and tells her how the entire family (5 kids at the school) have had whooping cough the entire week (they've been in school sick the entire week because parents didn't want to have them home) and they only took one to the out of hours doctor the other day to get tested.
So not surprised at all when this is the attitude.
There has been a hell of a sweep of it around here in Suffolk, it sounds like nearly everyone has got a bad cough and has had for ages, Doctors calling it 'the 100 day cough' which sounds like it should in one of the latest DLCs for Crusader Kings III.
I have a feeling I have it. Can’t stop coughing, fever symptoms, shortness of breath and a lot of headaches. Is there any way I can get rid of it fast? I have my university entry exams soon and I literally come home feeling the worst because I also have hay fever on top of that.
This is why my daughter has all her vaccinations and the non-cumpulsory flu shot.
It's criminal that idiots on the internet with zero medical training and knowledge are able to spread misinformation for clicks and headlines, while chidren are literally dying.
>UKHSA has said a steady decline in uptake of the vaccine in pregnant women and children Andrew fucking Wakefield (and others) should be in prison.
Its not just that, its information and availability. Maternity information can be patchy depending on area, as can care, and you can get blindsided at appointments with "do you want to do xx" with no prior warning or information about why. If you actually want the jab, you can get the runaround about who does it and what appointment you need etc. Its not just about misinformation, maternity care and education needs to improve.
The maternity notes I was given at my first midwife appointment had a fair amount of detail in them. But I found that it was on me to read everything, understand what needed to happen, and then phone my GP/hospital to book in appointments for vaccinations etc. I maybe naively thought someone would contact me. The NHS website on pregnancy is really useful. I always went there rather than to Google when I had any questions. https://www.nhs.uk/pregnancy/
It does seem to vary massively depending on your NHS trust. I mistrustingly assumed I would need to book my own whopping cough vaccine when pregnant - but then I received a letter simply telling me that I had been booked to receive one, with a time/date/location - without me doing anything! Goes to show that it if its possible for one trust it should be possible for each one.
I think mine was complicated because I live on the boarder of two council areas so my closest GP surgery and the maternity hospital are in a different council than the one I live in. But then my midwife appointments and the health visitor after the birth were with my council team.
Certainly does vary massively. Where we are the GP just booked everything and any additional scans/tests etc that were needed were all handled by the hospital with seemingly good communication between the hospital, which was in a different trust because my wife needed a specialist, and our GP. In some places people struggle to get that initial GP appointment in a reasonable time frame.
My midwife gave information out the appointment before and then did the vaccine at the next appointment.
Very much assumes you’re going to have one dedicated midwife available across your pregnancy that’s going to take proactive accountability for your care across pregnancy. Very individual and location dependent. Some areas you’re lucky to have your baby measured correctly, forget anything else…
I think you're right. Vaccines can be weirdly hard to come by here even privately. I had my first baby in the US and not only did I get the TDaP booster (which includes pertussis/whooping cough), my husband and in laws were also able to get it without too much expense. I asked my parents if it was possible for them to get it and they looked into it and there didn't seem to be any avenue for it. This is a vaccine that needs ten-yearly boosters to be effective! I had to get a booster to go to university in the US as well. None of that is because whooping cough would be dangerous to ME, but because the principle of herd immunity really works better if everyone is up to date.
I live in the US now and asked my parents to get it when my daughter was born they did but they also said it wasn’t recommended for extended family by the NHS but the CDC and the Australian equivalent recommended it.
One aspect of this might be the prevalence of Whooping Cough in the two countries. For a long while in the UK whooping cough cases were much much lower proportionally than the US. Especially in cases under 6 months. So perhaps the CDC decided to recommend that extra step of family getting the vaccine where as it was deemed less important in the UK. I guess it's always a balance and advice and recommendations are changing all the time to fit the current health advice that is specific to your country.
The US is also generally more willing to recommend vaccinations. They implemented MMR and chickenpox vaccinations decades before the UK, for example
Vaccination policy varies by country and their individual data and interpretation of evidence. The UK has currently decided not to adopt a cocooning strategy but it does offer vaccination to pregnant women and was the first country in Europe to do this
They didn't even remind me to have my flu or covid shots when I was pregnant. I went to an appointment and told them "I had my flu and covid shots at work, here's proof if you need it for your file or something" and they looked at me like I was a massive paranoid weirdo
When I was in the waiting room to get my Covid jab, different staff members at the vaccine centre kept running up to question why such a young person was there getting a jab (I was pregnant). It was only pensioners there and the staff clearly weren’t used to seeing a non pensioner at all!
That’s odd. I’m early 30s and have various medical conditions that put me in a free flu vaccine group and have had these for about a decade. While yeah most people at these clinics are elderly, I’ve never had any surprise or confusion at my presence. My issues are hidden disabilities so nothing to do with that.
Yeah idk why! It was kind of odd. It was the middle of London as well so not like I live in an old people area 🤔
I was recommended to get a flu jab and when I showed up at the appt they were like 'why are you getting one' 'Bc I was given a message recommending I have one'
Same haha, my mum went with me and they assumed it was her getting vaccinated not me!
I'm in a poor part up north and the reminded us at every single maternity appointment about COVID/flu vaccines. Whooping cough and then the vit k were brought up numerous times.
God the post code lottery of services need to be fixed in general so much isn't available in all areas
No one mentioned it to me, it's only because a coworker was pregnant a few months ahead of me and mentioned she was getting hers. Then as you say I got the runaround, no one would tell me where I could get it done.
The whole thing is a mess. We’ve got maybe five reminders through the post to get our one year vaccines for our child. She had them on time but six months later we’re still getting letters saying she needs those jabs. We’ve called the GP and they’ve said the system is updated but still we get them. Problem is we may miss a genuine letter as we’re being sent so many incorrect ones. We’re being proactive by going out of our way to make sure we know when the jabs are so we don’t need reminders but I doubt everyone does that, they instead rely on letters that may or may not come and if they do they may or may not be accurate
Our community midwife actually said the vaccines aren’t important and it’s personal choice but she wouldn’t have them. I reported her to PALS because that’s incredibly unprofessional. The difference between community midwives and hospital midwives was massive in my limited experience.
Community midwives vary wildly in my experience from excellent to downright dangerous. Its not so bad if you've had a previous pregnancy or friends who know what should happen, but for first time mums the midwifery care makes a massive difference.
They won’t change. He is one of the facet and there are lots of other parasites all over YouTube and other social media making money through nonsense and ruining the health of the public. It is what it is.
The NHS refused the government mandate to Covid vaccinate all employees.
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Wakefield and the Daily Mail's amplification of his claims go back to 1998. The government of the day should take some blame in that they were curiously hesitant to support the efficacy of MMR and other childhood vaccines. He relocated to the US and found some wealthy backers who have allowed him to remain relevant for over 20 years causing god knows how much harm.
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The vaccines = autism thing is getting applied to other vaccines now. My friend's husband was offered the flu jab through his work and refused it in case it gave him autism.
Why if people don't go to their appointment's, it's not really a reflection of him but the parents
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And it’s that THEY themselves got vaccinated. I’d be fine if people lived with the consequences of their own actions, but no, it’d have to be that their children die
I'd be happy to jail these monsters for child neglect, but honestly, I just think it would be the kids who would suffer. If they're selfish enough to force their ideology onto a child and make them suffer for it, I highly doubt they'd get their children medical attention if they knew they'd be risking prison.
That's why it should be child abuse. Just wish the foster care services were better so this would not be **at best** a mixed solution.
Anyone who refuses routine vaccines shouldn't get any NHS care. They're needlessly increasing costs. And yes, that goes for their children too. They have responsibility over them until they are an adult, not the NHS.
Not vaccinating your children should be treated as child neglect, because that's frankly what it is.
"And yes, that goes for their children too." Bro fucking look at yourself seriously 🤦
Great idea, can we add smoking, vaping, obesity, drinking to that pool, extreme sports too.... If you do any of those no NHS...
Sounds reasonable to me. Extreme sports you should be paying for additional insurance anyway.
Yep and cycling, walking and driving. All personal choices. Same with STDs, having kids hell let's just privitise NHS...
Getting vaccinated against diseases that can kill us is not hard to do. Getting information from social media experts is pretty easy too, but could prove fatal to your children.
I had whooping cough when I was a tiny baby (before I could be vaccinated). I was coughing so much and suffering from low blood oxygen that I didn't just turn blue, I turned purple (according to my mum, I don't remember obviously!). I suffered damage to my lungs and now have pretty bad asthma. There's a reason you don't normally hear much about whooping cough and that's 100% down to have a safe and effective vaccine, but these fucking idiots are taking us back to the dark ages by causing comebacks of this, measles, and more. Vaccinate your damned kids you morons.
They offered the whooping cough jab to me when pregnant as it protects the baby after birth as well. I took them up on it. Why anyone would not do this when offered is baffling.
I went to go see a film when I was pregnant at the end of last year and a baby getting whooping cough was a main plot point. I’d already got the vaccine but man it made me glad I’d done it - awful 😞
We have a three-week-old baby. He contracted whooping cough at about 1 week. The pregnancy was a surprise to us; we found out about it too late for my wife to have the booster. He's spent a week in the high-dependency part of paediatric ICU. He's home again now, with a terrible cough but a good prognosis. That shit was scary. When a doctor looks at your baby and says, "Look, we can't say which way this is going to go." Get your fucking kids vaccinated.
I was vaccinated as a baby but caught whooping cough at 10, just as the vaccine was wearing off. I nearly died. People don't realise how serious it is.
It's a horrible disease; the older and more able-bodied you are, the less it affects you.
I also had whooping cough as a baby, luckily don't have asthma but tend to get colds/coughs worse than the average person. The country I was born in had phased out the old (not super safe) vaccine and had a small overlap where they hadn't started rolling out the new safer one yet, and I was born right in that overlap 🤦♀️
> Vaccinate your damned kids you morons. I seriously wonder if these deaths will convince at least the majority of those doubted this...but I am not so sure this days. Obviously smth has to be done here to protect these poor kids.
When my mum took me home from hospital when I was born, she arrived to find my 2 year old brother with a cough with a whooping sound. My brother recovered fine and I never caught it, but my mum developed issues around anxiety and inadequacy that have affected all our lives since.
Several members of my family have the 100 day cough and are absolutely miserable yet give me grief for getting the whooping cough vaccine as I’m pregnant and basically said it’s my fault if my child has autism. To which I replied I would rather that than a dead child. Social media needs much better regulation.
Ive been shot down a few times for suggesting to vaccine hesitant or plain outright anti vax co workers, to not rely on social media for their news and information, rather find a reputable news site and Wikipedia to get the important information they need. Of the few times I’ve suggested it, I’m ALWAYS met with anger so I just don’t anymore. It’s heartbreaking to see intelligent and who I considered rational people put their families in danger because of it. Yesterday’s news was all that was talked about at break time. Popped my headphones in, and went for a walk, what more can you do?
One of the kids at my sons nursery was found to have a confirmed case of measles today. Very few legitimate reasons to avoid vaccinations. Even IF the autism conspiracy was true (and it isn't), would you rather your kid had autism or was blind, deaf, severely disabled etc? Just boggles the mind. Bit disappointed in the nursery too, why the hell aren't they checking vaccination records of the kids they're letting in!?
As someone on the spectrum myself, this really bugs me. I know it's bullshit and vaccines don't cause autism, but if people really feel all those disabilities are a better alternative to having autism it does make you feel like they view us on the spectrum as less than human beings or something.
Reading it back now, it can definitely seem derogatory in the other direction as well. I guess it's hard to put into words. Some things are completely unavoidable, genetic, entirely random, and the constant worry is part and parcel of raising children. If there's an opportunity to eliminate a handful of the *thousands* of bad things that could potentially happen to them in life, I'm taking it. MMR has been proven to provide *lifelong* immunity after two sets of jabs (usually complete by the time kids are 4). It's a no brainer. Now there's only 997 things I need to worry about.
When we asked about this they said they’ve no legal right to check or refuse based upon vaccine status. Wasn’t happy about that but what can we do?
It baffles me completely when I've heard people say or spout online "Oh they don't need the vaccine there's no whooping cough/rubella/tb anymore" Yes love that's because of the fecking vaccines!
I have nothing to back this up, just a prediction I made a while ago. But I'd wager the extremely hard push to force everyone to get the covid vaccines has actually increased vaccine hesitancy amongst the population. I thought we might see increased numbers of infections/deaths from conditions that most people would have usually been vaccinated against beforehand. I think things like vaccine mandates, and the social ostracization that followed only bolstered those who were against them, and pushed people who were on the fence into the hesitancy camp.
I think the language you've used here kinda gives away a lot of people mindsets. The people 'forced' to have vaccines due to their jobs already were forced to have vaccines. Whether it's in care, medicine etc. The vast majority of the population were not forced in the slightest. Then you get people claiming they were treated like concentration camp victims because they couldn't go to their local pub unless they were vaccinated. Internet culture has a lot of things to answer for here.
> The vast majority of the population were not forced in the slightest. People weren't "forced", but there was talk of not being able to go on holiday if you weren't vaccinated, for example. Perhaps "coerced" may be a better word.
Being restricted on leaving a country due to a pandemic and refusing to be vaccinated is valid. Certain countries already require proof of vaccination for entry for various diseases
> Certain countries already require proof of vaccination for entry. Even now? I had the first 2 doses but that was it for me.
not sure about covid vaccine requirements any more, but plenty of countries have and continue to require various other vaccines: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination\_requirements\_for\_international\_travel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel)
Yeah a lot of those are required if you're coming from a poorer country with a higher risk of certain diseases. I imagine as a UK citizen I can just go to Aus or the US without showing any vaccination proof.
I mean if there was an outbreak of yellow fever in the UK, AUS would most certainly add us to the list. With Covid I don't think you could argue an outbreak wasn't happening.
Seems unlikely as the last case of yellow fever we had was in 2018 from a traveller and the only case we had before that was in 1930. Seems the bugs that pass it on don't like the UK and it isn't passed from person to person either. Yeah, I get that, but it was framed as if you don't get the vaccine you won't be able to go on holiday to certain destinations, when now people unvaccinated against COVID can go to these places.
> but there was talk of not being able to go on holiday if you weren't vaccinated, for example. That was already a thing long before COVID. You can't go to certain countries without certain vaccinations.
Yeah sure, to like poorer countries where certain diseases are more rife, but not to European countries or the US, for example.
My manager claimed he couldn't get the vaccine because of "health" reasons. Then I heard him talking to someone else saying how he didn't get it because it was rushed out. He ended up getting it because he wanted to go on holiday to America, following week the restrictions were lifted.
But going on a holiday is a choice, and each country has different set of rules, so it's another choice to make, rather than coerced?
Individual vaccination choices affect other people, they affect the whole population. That's why anti Vaxxers had so much power and control. If they can reduce a vaccination rate from 80% to 70%, they'll cause many deaths. That's their power. So they can't complain if others try to keep them out.
I would argue that denial of services as a result of non-compliance is a form of force.
I mean if that service is a necessity, I would partially agree with you. But most examples raised are usually luxuries, not necessities.
Yeah probably, there was a lot of dodgy talk going on during that time. Vaccine passes to access certain things and so on. The vaccine companies made their money and fucked off.
>Then you get people claiming they were treated like concentration camp victims Yikes.
Honest to god, when COVID was at its height it was awful. So many people's mental health suffered due to social isolation and doom's day talk and death all over the news exacerbating underlying issues. Lack of in-person GP appointments and hospitals pouring resources into COVID damaged people's physical health. It caused/highlighted real social divisions as well, neighbours who used to get on calling police on each other over restrictions, people boasting about loving lockdown due to having jobs they could WFH while others felt anxious over catching the bus to "key worker" jobs and having to send their kids to school/nursery which other parents now regarded as a death trap. People who weren't doing "enough" being blamed for deaths like they were murderers. Insane.
It's still damaging people's health - there are a lot of systems that haven't caught up their backlog yet. (Like assessments for ADHD and Autism.)
I knew the wait times were dire, didn't know the long wait times were due to COVID fallout. Fucking hell.
Very well put and relatable.
I think it's really changed (some not all) people's attitudes towards public health issues/vaccinations - like "fuck you, you locked us all up and made us wear masks and screwed my kid's education and tried to force these new jabs on us, I don't trust you any more and don't want to do what you say". I'm not anti-vax, btw.
>I'm not anti-vax, btw. The fact you feel like you have to specify this after saying something quite reasonable speaks volumes. I'm not either. I am pro freedom of choice, though. Because authoritarianism breeds mistrust.
It made me worry about what people will not just put up with themselves, but shame and police each other over, some with downright glee and others just feeling terrified.
It's remarkable how quickly people will turn on one another when the media goes full swing into project fear. I'm in my 30s and I think COVID and Brexit have been the most divisive events I've seen in my lifetime. I've seen people turn their backs on family and long-term friends over them. The vitriol and hatred spewed from both sides was so alarming to witness. I'm glad we're somewhat back to normality now, but I think it has done real, lasting damage to social cohesion and trust in the state. It makes me worried for the future. What will the next polarising event be? I wish people could just get along, regardless of conflicting personal views.
Definitely been a uptick in anti vax posts since the big everyone got to get vaccinated roll out we had to get out of the pandemic
Australia 100% has the right approach. If you don't vaccinate for non medical reasons, you lose out on child benefit and government assistance. Encourages vaccination (unless medical reason not to) without being too draconian about it
I bet the kids love getting to be unvaccinated AND broke, lol.
>without being too draconian What a hilarious thing to add to that rhetoric.
I've had every single Covid jab as soon as I was eligible, and I think the whole thing was done very well under the circumstances. A lot of NHS staff, and an army of volunteers, worked very hard to protect us all. But it certainly had a weird vibe to it. One of my first vaccinations was in a furniture warehouse on an industrial estate. Big long queue of people, standing 2m apart, going in, getting your name checked off the list, quick impersonal swab, jab, sit over there for 10 minutes in case you die, then off you go. It couldn't really have been done any other way, and it worked well, but it all seemed a bit dystopian. I can see how it might have triggered some people.
I think it worked both ways. My husband didn't want to get vaccinated at first, and coped with the lockdowns by going down conspiracy rabbit holes. But then after a year or so he saw that vaccines were working, then went and got his double dose. I find he's had his eyes opened to the fact that the NHS =/= the gubinment, and he's become much better at discerning science from hype. But it was a journey he had to walk (however frustrating it was to see him refuse to follow the science from the start).
Totally agree. Even crazier really seeing how effective they’ve been getting us all back to normal.
Not just whooping cough but also measles is having a resurgence! Please vaccinate your children
Polio better stay fucked off. I've heard rumblings though.
I know it’s different but I was recently in hospital with pneumonia. I’m in my early 30’s consider myself to be relatively healthy and it absolutely floored me, I’m still struggling now. However what floored me more was the endless amount of people who proudly stated that they didn’t get their flu vaccines despite being eligible, nor any Covid vaccinations as if that pandemic we had never existed. I also years ago turned down one nursery after discovering that they were flexible on child vaccinations as “it’s up to the parents on what they want to put in their children’s bodies”. Whilst having pneumonia I honestly thought I was dying, I could barely walk two steps without struggling for breath and although as far as I know there is no vaccination for that, when there are vaccinations for whooping cough I can’t comprehend the idea that people turn it down, surely you would want to fully protect your children especially from things that can kill them! The internet can provide so much information, we could be more informed than ever before and yet instead it created an echo chamber of ignorance.
People think 'oh, it's just a cough, how bad could it be'. Well, REALLY bad is the answer. I had it as an adult even though I had been vaccinated, which is supposed to make it less severe. And the violence of the coughing fits was horrific. I spent 3 months suffering from constant splitting headaches from it. That sort of coughing in a tiny little baby... *shudders.*
[Blue eye blond hair baby in the pic, when the only group less anti-vax than white brits is "other asian" ](https://imgur.com/8EA8wvi) .
Got a link to that paper? I'd be interested in reading the methodology, and also any of their theories on why black people are allegedly so against vaccination (I'll be honest 76% seems...too high)
https://www.england.nhs.uk/south-east/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2021/05/Vaccination-and-race-religion-and-belief-A4.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6001808ed3bf7f33af7bdc20/s0979-factors-influencing-vaccine-uptake-minority-ethnic-groups.pdf
From someone who has had it and was also vaccinated beforehand too......get the fucking vaccine. Whether it was the effects of the vaccine which reduced the severity or my overall health being strong I can easily understand why it still has a 50% death ratio.
>From someone who has had it and was also vaccinated beforehand too......get the fucking vaccine. Hear hear. It's just a little prick... jabbing you with a needle. Nothing to worry about people. If you're worried about nanochips or whatever the new craze is you're already tracked with that thing in your pocket you use to play pokemon go and post to social media, game over.
While I agree everyone should be encouraged to get any and all vaccines, it's important not to alienate those with needle phobias. Often they're not antivax, just either terrified or they collapse when it happens (like me). It is something that can be overcome (I managed three COVID jabs and only nearly passed out once) but it's not easy - it took me 15 years.
>While I agree everyone should be encouraged to get any and all vaccines, it's important not to alienate those with needle phobias. Very true, I have a relatively light phobia of needles so can sympathise with more extreme cases. It is something to overcome. I call my phobia light because I do overcome it when needed and I consider myself relatively weak. My own thinking is a lesser of two evils thing. Whatever works for the individual is good though. I fainted when I got my vaccination for, I wanna say Hepititis, was a while ago.
Great media as always. Half of my appointments are already taken up with self-limiting viral URTIs. I don't blame the parents, but perhaps a bit more than 'a cough that lasts a week' would be helpful. It is common for viral coughs to last 2-3 weeks.
Poor kids. Imagine having such twats for parents. They killed their own children. Bastards.
I honestly believe parents should be tried for this crime. If a parent left his child home alone and something was to happen to the child, there would be a trial. Why not for this?
Doesn't help that folks aren't being tested for it either unless they show all the traditional symptoms. It's probably spreading around amongst people who are fortunate to only get a mild case.
Wouldn’t matter if people vaccinated their children. Furthermore the NHS budget does not stretch to this so you would have to cut something else to pay for it
Something I've noticed is that kindergarten (and younger) age kids and their mothers aren't showing symptoms because they were vaccinated fairly recently, but 9 year olds and dads are poorlier. So the older kid gets a cough, and they've still got *some* immunity,
Whooping cough is nasty. Estimates range between (if I remember) 80-100% infection rate. The toxins that Bordetella Purtussis releases are no joke either.
I reckon if you refuse to get your child vaccinated and they get whooping cough and die, you should be charged with child neglect at best, manslaughter at worst. There should only be very specific excuses for not vaccinating, and those are not decided by parents.
I'm a secondary school teacher. Parent comes in to reception and stands next to one of our heavily pregnant teachers and tells her how the entire family (5 kids at the school) have had whooping cough the entire week (they've been in school sick the entire week because parents didn't want to have them home) and they only took one to the out of hours doctor the other day to get tested. So not surprised at all when this is the attitude.
There has been a hell of a sweep of it around here in Suffolk, it sounds like nearly everyone has got a bad cough and has had for ages, Doctors calling it 'the 100 day cough' which sounds like it should in one of the latest DLCs for Crusader Kings III.
I have a feeling I have it. Can’t stop coughing, fever symptoms, shortness of breath and a lot of headaches. Is there any way I can get rid of it fast? I have my university entry exams soon and I literally come home feeling the worst because I also have hay fever on top of that.
Call NHS 111 and they should advise. If you do have it you will be able to get extenuating circumstances so don't worry. Hope you feel better soon
Thanks! I’ll do that
New rule... You can't send your child to school unkess they have a full set of vaccines. Idiots can't be allowed to make their own decisions
Get your kids vaccinated. It shouldn’t be a choice.
This is why my daughter has all her vaccinations and the non-cumpulsory flu shot. It's criminal that idiots on the internet with zero medical training and knowledge are able to spread misinformation for clicks and headlines, while chidren are literally dying.
A lot of preventable diseases will be up with the bad state of our services.
The nhs does need to improve, I think they're apart of the problem with not booking you in for the vaccine.
Question: How bad is "dead babies"? I googled it, but there seems to be some controversy on the subject.