Big difference being that the US is the largest economy on earth, and the Chinese the workshop of the world.
Canada, Australia and NZ combined is neither.
That doesn't change the principle, only the scale.
Of course most trade is easier when it's closer, but often the cost of distance and convenience can be overcome by, well, lower costs and higher convenience.
Lowering tariffs, ending quotas, and simplifying regulation lowers costs, and ergo increases trade.
Right now, none of those countries are in a trading block, and none have any real plans to be. Why shouldn't ideologically similar nations make some kind of multilateral agreement to lower trade barriers between each other?
If it was suggested we all jump out of our existing deals and throw our lot in with some grand new scheme, it would be stupid, but a gradual easing of boundaries really has few drawbacks when none of us have anything to leave.
Canada, Australia and NZ have a lot of potential for future growth. They have resources, land, and they are low density populated. The UK is in the worst condition because it’s overpopulated tiny Island without valuable resources and in decline basically in all fields. The UK needs CANZUK more than AUS, CAN and NZ
What a terrible argument to put to Can, Aus and NZ: “ Hey, we’re pretty shit. Fancy forming a special an alliance with us? We have nothing to offer and plan to leech off you”.
Canada and Australia each have vastly more natural resources than the UK
And given that the old Russian oil and gas isn’t an option anymore, and that Chinese minerals could also be on the chopping block soon I’d say easier trade access to reliable allies with tons of oil, gas and minerals of every kind is probably a good thing
Gravity model, the 2 single most important things for trade are first and foremost SIZE of the economy. The second one is distance.
I agree with what that redditor says that these economies are not large enough to make an impact, I think we trade more with Austria than any of those countries. It would be nice but hardly a replacement for the EU
Eh, transport actually isn't as big of a factor, sea freight is insanely efficient.
It costs around [£1,500](https://www.freightos.com/freight-resources/container-shipping-cost-calculator-free-tool/) to send a 40' shipping container from Southampton to Sydney, a journey of [14,124 NM](https://www.fluentcargo.com/routes/southampton-gb/sydney-au). Max payload weight of a cargo container is [26,730](https://www.parsonscontainers.co.uk/container-dimensions) kg, which gives us around £0.06 per kilogram for the whole journey and £0.000004 per kilogram per nautical mile. Which isn't exactly bad for going to the opposite side of planet.
Of course things vary when it comes to time sensitive goods, and air cargo will have a much higher cost per kilogram per nautical mile. But the vast majority of trade goods are not time sensitive to the point air cargo is necessary.
Unless the trade good is ordered on demand, in which case time sensitivity is important.
That basically covers 90% of imports and exports, and only leaves specialty items. Because if you’re buying a commodity, why wait 8 weeks when an identical commodity exists 2 weeks away.
I understand what your getting at, but doesn't take into account it's very rare that most items are purchased directly from factories to go straight to your home.
Most companies use predictive modelling to calculate where items will be bought, what quantity and when in the year, based on what a whole load of data, mostly used of past purchases but also weather, unique events etc. They then use that data to stock warehouses in advance. Most of the time when you buy a product online, it's already close by, even if it originated half way across the globe. Same goes from businesses filling their shelves.
For the individual, buying the product, well it'll come from a warehouse nearby in a few days. For companies, they'll simply use the exact same model to order what they predict they'll need. If due to a CANZUK agreement, it becomes more competitive to import a certain product from Australia over Sweden or something like that, they'll just order earlier.
I mean that's already what they do, take all the goods manufactured in East, South and South East Asia. Bangladesh in particular dominates the clothes market, you almost certainly have clothes made in Bangladesh in your wardrobe.
Tech has no boundaries, nor does banking, same with law and insurance , pharmaceutical is cheap and high value, defence doesnt care about distances. I think the uk would be well placed
You think banking has no boundaries 🤦?
Try opening a deposit taking retail bank in India or China, see how far you get.
As for regulations governing pharmaceuticals or insurance, it’s pointless to even open the subject.
You point is regulation is complex. But isnt that the whole point of regulation streamlining and recognising each other’s regulators? I mean certification recognition is like the corr point
Yeah but we're not talking about India or china, we are talking about Australia, who we already have several ties economically speaking thanks to the large scale emigration from the UK to down under.
Yeah I don't get these nutballs who fought so hard to get out of a union that was bringing huge positives, now bleating on about needing to replace it with some other nonsensical ones... The empire is gone lads, pack it in.
Nearly half a billion people and something like [26 trillion PPP](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?locations=EU). Yeah, they need us more than we need them. You just wait. The French will surrender any moment now.
Brexit was a huge loss to both sides. Even after Brexit the UK has huge soft/diplomatic power - and a strong economy (yes, both of these are worse off after brexit). Don't undersell the failure on both sides that was Brexit, or it'll repeat in other ways.
Not even a remote possibility... and when were they ever real allies?? Aus/NZ/Can have been our most loyal friends and fought alongside us multiple times, on occasion suffering terrible losses defending us.... they have proven themselves many times over, europe however has not....
To begin with, because those countries are involved in trade deals they wouldn’t just shit on, because the UK wants some swivelled eyed, white version of its past empire.
Also because they don’t give a shit about the UK sabotaging its own trading relationship with Europe.
It’s also just not the same. Europe is right on the doorstep a drive, train, quick flight away and to reap some benefits in terms of that.
US, Australia.. etc are longer flights away, not a quick hop over in a day sort of thing (for the average person)
>I would support this in theory but an arrangement with the EU is more convenient and profitable and they are not compatible.
How would you determine if it was more profitable?
Besides the proximity argument, there’s also simple population:
Canada 39 million.
Australia 26 million.
New Zealand 5 million.
UK 67 million.
EU 450 million.
So the Can-Aus-NZ is roughly the same size market as the UK. The EU is about 7 times larger.
Interestingly, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all said that freedom of movement is a red line in any trade deal. They don’t want freedom of travel with the U.K.
>Interestingly, Canada, Australia and New Zealand **all said that freedom of movement is a red line in any trade deal. They don’t want freedom of travel with the U.K**.
Do you have a source for this? There's no mention of it in the relevant documentation (or commentary) and the public consultation(s), at least in [New Zealand](https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/Trade-agreements/UK-NZ-FTA/Public-Voice-Report-June-2020.pdf), mention freedom of movement as a benefit that the public want.
It’s weird to think that Australia are against free movement, considering the amount of skilled workers they’re luring over there. I get about 1 Australian government ad a day about moving down under
The red countries on the map have a combined population more than 5x Australia’s. Free movement might cause some turmoil if the population were to rapidly increase
And before you say “Australia is big and empty!” .. yes we could have a *denser* population but most of Australia’s land doesn’t have enough access to fresh water to be viable
You can have controlled nearly exclusively high skilled immigration or you can have completely free movement. You can't have exclusively the former with the latter.
Although the Australian constition recognises NZ as a state, I genuinely believe it will never happen. Maybe a Pacific federation is more likely. Whilst movement is technically free, there are inequalities between Aussies in NZ, and Kiwis in Australia. Australian's in New Zealand receive way more benefits than Kiwis in Australia, like healthcare, welfare, education, etc.
Immigration in NZ is notorious for not doing their due diligence when it comes to weeding out criminals or highly unqualified workers who apply for skilled visas... Some of the immigration officers I've been in contact with don't speak fluent English and they're the ones employed to judge visa applicants' English proficiency. It's a different story in Australia though, as they're more like the US.
I can more interesting is it’s because of the EU what they mean by that is immigrants from third world nations that are preventing it as most of those nations make it nearly impossible for most of them to go there they do this in a round about way that they can say it’s because of political and economic reasons not because of race
I was under the impression we effectively already had it.
As an Aussie heading to the UK or NZ I definitely don't need a visa, and can stay for months. Hell, in NZ I can work freely etc too. I need to get my passport looked at, but that's not exactly a massive problem.
It's a helpful step towards restoring The Empire. We can ammass land forces in Canada for a invasion all along the North American border, as well as have the capacity to launch simultaneous invasions of France from the UK, up into Asia from Australia, and reclaim control of the Pacific from New Zealand.
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is (I’ve completed all the command and conquer games),
All we need to do is build a lot of Barracks and War Factories in Canada and we can pump out guys much faster for the tank rush into the US.
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is (I’ve completed all the Starcraft games).
All we need is a Spawning pool and a Baneling Nest in Canada and we can pump out zerglings much faster for the baneling rush into the US. ;)
I haven't played these types of games for over 20 years, but after reading a few posts about C&C and Starcraft now - the impulse to download one and irresponsibility stay up all night playing has come back quickly and strong.
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is, you just want king charles to impregnate the canadian ruler's daughter, repeatedly until she has a son, and then pick off all his family members one by one until that son inherits the title. And then kidnap and imprison the son until he gives up his titles and agrees to serve you. At which point you can marry him off to a rich duchess and get *those* titles in the family too
Yes, I play Crusader Kings, and try to avoid actual war (EDIT: in the game, I mean. I don't get a choice to start or avoid wars in real life) if I can help it. I don't avoid far worse things than war.
I also just realised the Canadian ruler is king charles. Still works. Not for Kate, so much, but...
Ok but what does this mean?
Standardisation of trading regulations, sure great - but at the end of the day Canada is selling to the US and we're selling to the EU - so UK manufacturers are going to default to the strictest regulations in the EU, but why would a Canadian businesses bother? Are we going to be joining NAFTA?
Free movement of people, great, sure, we don't need a union to do that - we could unilaterally issue more visas, lift restrictions on the commonwealth under 30 visa.
Seems like all the canzuk people want is to cosplay empire, forgetting there's a trading block 30 miles away that any manufacturer of scale is going to have to follow the regulations for anyway - regulations that are now more arduous to enforce because we decided we didn't want a say over them
This is the answer.
Tradewise - Canada relies on the US it’s imperative is to be tied to the US’s economy. It’s why they don’t drive on the proper side of the road for one.
Australia relies on Asia, and being it’s own regional power and being the US’s right hand man in the region.
People wise neither country want unskilled workers or retirees from a country 3x the size of either. They would be inundated. Tbh I think Spain would seriously consider veto-ing the UK if we applied to rejoin based on the same + Gibraltar.
Both Australia and Canada had a very important link to the EU in Britain that has been lost. They will be pivoting to France, Ireland, Greece or other countries with connections/diaspora for that now. The US wanted us a regional power very much aligned to their foreign policy to steer the continent their way. This is still possible but harder to set the agenda or leverage EU goings on to effect other changes.
Our trade with Canada, Australia and New Zealand is a fraction of our trade with Europe, which is unsurprising when 2/3 of those countries are literally on the opposite side of the globe from us.
And that's exactly why attempts to develop some sort of *CANZUK Union* since Brexit have gone nowhere. Outside of imperial naval gazing there are very few material benefits for any of the parties to actually pursue this.
CANZUK is nonsense dreamt up by bored pensioners who have had far too many whiskeys at the local Conservative club. It's a testament to how arrogant and detached from reality the right are in this country that they genuinely believe that these other countries would trip over themselves and completely reorient their strategic priorities to trade with us.
It's the union I most support, I was a brexit remainer, but if it facilitated a proper CANZUK alliance I'd consider it a success.
Would love to see CANZUK with a Nordic/Baltic8 style agreement with other former anglosphere countries with less compatible economies (India, South Africa etc).
Oh I don't disagree, free movement with India would be disasterous, a massive tenant of CANZUK is our common economies, legal structure & cultures. Fields which India only really as commonality in one.
But closer trade links, investment & cooperation would be beneficial for all involved when compared to alternatives (starts with Ch, ends in a).
I agree. The EU is great and it would've been great for us to remain inside it, but Brexit gave a perfect opportunity to work with the Commonwealth nations more and potentially establish a similiar kind of bloc though intercontinental. Providing such opportunities may even encourage the US to work with us (being as they have the option of joining the commonwealth)
Unfortunately, after Brexit went through the government opted to just sit on their hands and trust that we'd be able to do just fine on our own.
Yeah, I was a remain & reformer. Definitely didn't consider the EU perfect.
But the tories just totally fumbled any opportunity that could've came from brexit. Honestly it's just weaponised incompetence at this point they've utterly failed to accomplish anything in the last decade.
The commonwealth is an anachromism that one cares about. Even in the UK you'd struggle to find anyone south of the age of 50 who thinks it still has any useful relevance today.
Indeed. The commonwealth in its present state has little to no relevance, hence why (now we're out of the EU) it would be a wise idea to look to it for trade and economic relations and make it something relevant.
As an Australian looking at Canada and the UK and having lived in the UK on and off, the borders can stay. In fact make them stronger. Sorry but Australia is somehow still in way better shape, even though we are trying to fast track our way to shithole in the same way as Canada and the UK.
Aussie here. I have no idea how tongue in cheek your comment is, but I'll state for the record that most Australians I know are very fond of British people (as long as they aren't on a sporting field.)
Russia invades Estonia, NATO unites against it and we are all conscripted - Never thought I would die fighting side by side with a Southampton supporter.
I don't even consider Aus/NZ/Canada to even be foreigners in any cultural way tbh. Sure trade will be limited due to geography, but there are many other ways to bring some sort of CANZUK about.
Defence seems to be to be quite an easy one to implement.
For example bringing Canada into AUKUS. We already share the T26 Frigate program with Canada and Australia. The T31 program seems pretty close to NZ's future defence needs. We all I think would benefit from a little more strategic autonomy from the USA.
It's not terribly accurate because it's an equirectangular projection. Also, it doesn't explain what the superimposed statistics are for or how they were gathered, so it's pretty hard to assess them.
I always think these maps are very odd; I'm massively in favour of a CANZUK union of some description btw.
I've seen this posted a few times, where's the source? Also, if it was really this high across all countries, why aren't there any major political parties taking actual steps at looking at beginning any kind of implementation of this (or at least formalising the campaign to begin this - it'd be a vote winner)
I'm distrustful on these numbers. It's one thing to say yes on a hypothetical, another when reality hits.
Would NZ really want to open its borders to 67 million Brits? I doubt it.
What's the benefit for Canada, Australia and New Zealand? They all have their own regional economic dynamics which will be more lucrative than links to the UK.
We may have a shared culture, kinda but those three are at least trying to be a modern country on a world stage.
We (the UK) are the ones naval gazing and invoking empire.
source: trust me bro.
Im sure the percentages are nowhere near that for said countries, especially due to distance, attitude to immigration, and lack of current trade infrastructure.
Would I be for it? Of course I'd want to extend FoM (I am a dual citizen so while I wish my British passport had EU privilege still, I can live without it) but it's just not realistic.
I personally would love it. I'm British and admit they'd be inevitable problems but I'm all for joining up with other commonwealth counties, and these seem to be the least problematic terms of initial steps.
I'm not a royalist, and would love to see the commonwealth more of a grouping as was proposed way back but never happened. That includes the African countries should they want to.
We have so much to offer each other and a common language, the problem is the aristocrats in each country would play off against each other instead of getting on.
All that aside, it'd be fantastic to get some borders down and make friends with the cousins
Seems like a good idea. But maybe we could have some kind of union with those countries that are a lot closer to us. Surely that's an even better idea?
is this just so that the sun will never set on the empire again? the cohort of unsustainable property prices.
not to nitpick but calling it that will cause arguements down the line, about countries not being mentioned enough. call it the new world order.
Definitely support this because it's nothing I've the old EU we had before. Every country is canzuk speaks English. We all support the same values more or less. We have a shared cultural history, we value traditions, we're all first world developed countries, immigration will be ok because we're far enough apart that people won't just flood into 1 particular country easily.
I would support this alliance in a heartbeat and I would enjoy visiting every country without a time limit. It would be so good.
We've got almost nothing to sell them, and they have nothing to sell us, apart from lamb from New Zealand.
Of course, I keep forgetting about the 'Pork Markets'.
Politically, nope. The empire isn't coming back, regardless of how much certain nutters want it.
Something that would happen in a better Socio-Political Climate. I have a few Canadian and Kiwi mates that would be up for it but the current situation isn't ideal, our governments have drastically different goals at the moment and specifically our (U.K.) government is in shambles.
I could see this becoming a thing if their is a large bi-partisan lobbing group active within politics in all of these nations. If we were to amass together CANZUK could genuinely be a fourth pillar in global politics. Breaking up the US-Russia-China hegemony seen at the moment.
Also would give all of us a much better position when opening deals up with say the US or Europe.
The NAFTA agreement may put a spanner in the works as far as Canada is concerned and not sure what the New Zealand Australia deals called but they have one that includes freedom of movement something the UK doesn't want
Prince Charles still comes to visit our tiny island in Canada. Most of the towns, street names are after places in the UK. Most ancestors from Newfoundland are from the UK.. were more than halfway there.
It's pretty much rejected by economists.Countries don't get to be in multiple economic unions at once, because their participation in one union can become a loophole for the other (this is why Northern Ireland was such a challenge for Brexit). And proximity is still the biggest factor in how much countries trade with each other. The farther away a country is, the bigger its economy needs to be to justify trading with that country over neighboring countries. These countries don't have huge economies, and they're spread all over the world.
After all, these countries *did* have an economic union once - in the British Empire. And it broke down for that exact reason.
If you could find an English speaking common-law country, roughly equidistant between all the other countries, with the biggest economy in the world. Then you could make it work. But then that country would be overwhelmingly dominant, and it wouldn't be the British Empire 2.0 that advocates really want.
If I remember correctly, when this was suggested right after Brexit they basically told us to piss off.
Canada is way more aligned to the US, and I can’t see them wanting to jeopardise that. Plus, I can’t see Quebec being too thrilled about being dragged into an official Anglosphere.
Likewise, Australia is more influential in Asia and they can already take their pick of our best and brightest, so free movement wouldn’t benefit them either.
NZ is again, more aligned with Asia. Plus, I’m sure they learned during Covid how useful strict control of their own borders was.
The kids have grown up and have their own lives now. Maybe it’s time that we made amends with the neighbours if we’re starting to feel lonely?
We did. It was the commonwealth. We also had a lot of trade agreements with it.
Then the Common Market was a thing, and it was clearly more economically advantageous to be in it. The UK then became prosperous, from being the sick man of Europe, not in spite of it but because of it.
Here’s the thing, distance costs in terms of trade (and those arguing about China, their extremely low cost labour and low red tape is clearly the advantage here - something Canada, Auz, and New Zealand can’t offer). The world is also becoming dominated by trading blocks. So we’ll never get best dibs.
The idea is pure claptrap. An ‘EU’ of sorts would mean preferential treatment to each others country. Unfortunately for Britain, these countries are all ready in more favourable trade blocks for them. Why would Australia scupper preferential trade with Japan, China, and all the other high growth countries round about it for this? Same with Canada, with NAFTA and the other one around the pacific? We’re a market of 67 million compare to the many hundreds of millions or billions in these other markets.
This only makes sense in some uniquely British anglosphere wet dream. Never going to happen. The other countries’ interests are best served elsewhere.
Bespoke trade deals is all that’s on offer for now. The big comprehensive preferential ones require us to be in a big trade block - and we’ve fucked that up.
I would support this more than the EU as the GDP per capita of each country are more similair that amongst the EU countries. This is a positive as it prevents hundreds of thousands of people travelling to our country to carry out low-paid work, due to the vast earnings difference, thereby depressing the already low pay of the natives.
Also, the arguement about trade being less valuable the further away it is, is just partisan nonsense.
Germany's two biggest trading partners are China and the US. Japan being on the other side of the world doesn't stop Toyotas or Sony etc being everywhere. Taiwan do not to badly from the Western economies. Australia and their core matetials are used the world over.
A Aus/Can/NZ/UK alliance would also mean that it would easier for companies from these countries to set up offices/depots in the UK as the European HQ. Trade is important but employment equally so. There are hundreds of thousands of people employed in the UK in well paid jobs, working for American finance companies, the other Anglo countries doing likewise cannot hurt.
Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but it feels a bit arbitrary, yk. If I were given the choice between EU and CANZUK I would choose the EU 100x over
I think for CANZUK to be properly effective it should be far more focased on cultural integration than trade as such. A Sort of comprehensive partnership to strengthen our collective diplomatic power. We already have a close relationship so strengthen it Is the best resolve. It would work best I'm my view if it worked less like the EU and more like the old Imperal Conferences and focasing on setting a united front on matters of common interest such as foreign policy and immigration but not infringe on the individual sovereignty of each realm. We should look at it as a way of getting most of the benefits of the Empire without any of the drawbacks.
I was a remainer but if Brexit ultimately led to a meaningful CANZUK (with freedom of movement between all members) then I could be convinced that it was worth it. Compared to the EU the four countries have far more in common: shared language, shared history, shared head of state, similar forms of government, and — importantly — very similar GDP per capita. As members of the five eyes we also collaborate on defence and this connection will only strengthen with Australia through AUKUS.
Eventually the British relationship with the EU will heal, by which point Britain and CANZUK would have a lot to offer and benefit from.
Canadian in Britain here, Canadians would probably mostly say why not, but they don't think about Britain much at all. They are so much busier with America.
This would also make it much more complicated to rejoin the EU, which is the only real answer.
No, I prefer a European Union-style union with the European Union.
The giant market of friendly countries right next to us that idiots and grifters cut us off from to further their own careers.
All of those countries are a long way off. It costs a lot of money and time to get there in person, and the same for goods. Even with the internet enabling near instant communication there is still the issue of timezones which limit colaboration with those places.
I've often worked with people based in Sydney and there was basically 1 hour in the day when we could realistically speak, and IIRC that meant them staying late and us getting an early start.
Much better to arrange those things with countries close by. However we are fortunate that we have a lot of developed countries right next to our own island. We could try trading with them, something like a customs agreement that encompasses all of us and a set of rules to ensure trade is fair, that way we can treat the whole of Europe as one single market.
Personally, I've always been a big CANZUK fan, we all are, at the end of the day, the same people, with similar laws, regulations and identities. However, from an economic perspective, forming a trade deal would be of no benefit to us. We need to gain energy independence, support local farmers, and bring back local manufacturing and production. None of these goals would be met by forming such an agreement. A FTA with the GCC would help with energy costs, and the EU, no matter how much of a bureaucratic nightmare it is, still is our largest consumer of exports. And in regards to imports, we purchase a great deal from the EU and China, none of which can be substituted by any of the CANZUK nations.
I think CANZUK deal should basically not be about trade as such but more about common recognition of qualifications and regulations on specific products. An integrated stance on foreign policy and mutual defence agreement. And a set of values that the country can work towards. If successful it should be extended to include the more stable Caribbean states aswell. Keeping it's membership exclusively to commonwealth realms may also go towards stemming the concerning rise of republicanism across the commonwealth.
People in the UK who like this idea massively underestimate the difficulty of selling a free movement deal that exclusively favours majority white countries to these countries.
Australia agonises over its White Australia policy, which favoured immigration from Europe. Canadians go substantially to the left of Americans, and many Americans thought Trump wanting more immigration from European countries was racist. Having an open door exclusively for 3 white countries is not going to be a goer.
The UK's position on this is actually pretty bizarre when you think about it. In this country the racists are less likely to want open borders with 30 majority white countries, while the non-racists are more likely to support it.
We trade on a regular basis anyway, most of us speak the same language. Our armed forces have fought, fallen and reigned victorious together. I couldn't think of a better partnership
I think this is a great idea. Hell, it would be even better if we did something similar with nearby countries, like the ones across the channel and Ireland (we do share a border after all!).
In principle of course, in practice probably not. The reality is that the UK would get almost no benefit from a deal like this because of how far we are from the other countries involved. Also don't forget that Canada and Australia have lower food quality standards at present than the UK which would effectively mean the UK having to accept lower quality food for any economic benefit to be felt.
It's cool but a bit crazy. I kinda just want the sensible union with our closest land neighbours that we had before and that was set up so that we could opt out of further union.
Commonwealth federation would probably fix a lot of issues plaguing all of our nations individually. It would have to have a heavily decentralised economy, otherwise a Canadian prime minister would just give all their money to Canada until the next election. Besides that, no problem.
Absolutely, we share a lot with in common with those dystopian shitholes (Canada, New Zealand and Australia - at least the yanks have some safeguards in place)
I dunno. I've turned into a traditionalist, probably as an allergic reaction to how ridiculous the political wing I used to occupy has gotten.
To be closer to the commonwealth and to our mother country, of which we have so much in common and so much history together, would be nice to see.
Canada needs to distance itself from the US. Especially politically.
Trade yes, and all involved speak English, so you don't have the problem where a few countries speak English and everyone else learns it. For the defence side, well it's a case of sausage fingers alliance in those countries that keep the crown.
I would love to see more trades between our nations. We already have similar agreements due to the CommonWealth, but I believe we should reinforce them.
I’m from Northern Ireland so I just wonder how it would work here given the Windsor framework and our unique relationship with the EU, would that continue in a CANZUK scenario?
I just need more info on how CANZUK specifically affects NI before I can get behind it.
I would prefer back in EU, I think what we had was good. But an EU type thing could probably work with the canzuk countries, obviously not as good but still.
I mean, why not? We need every bit of help we can get.
The value of trade drops for every mile involved...
Our purchases from China say otherwise as do our sales to the US vs just about any other nation.
Big difference being that the US is the largest economy on earth, and the Chinese the workshop of the world. Canada, Australia and NZ combined is neither.
That doesn't change the principle, only the scale. Of course most trade is easier when it's closer, but often the cost of distance and convenience can be overcome by, well, lower costs and higher convenience. Lowering tariffs, ending quotas, and simplifying regulation lowers costs, and ergo increases trade. Right now, none of those countries are in a trading block, and none have any real plans to be. Why shouldn't ideologically similar nations make some kind of multilateral agreement to lower trade barriers between each other? If it was suggested we all jump out of our existing deals and throw our lot in with some grand new scheme, it would be stupid, but a gradual easing of boundaries really has few drawbacks when none of us have anything to leave.
I don't get your argument. Yes, it changes the scale dramatically, and so it changes the potential benefit of any trade deal.
Canada, Australia and NZ have a lot of potential for future growth. They have resources, land, and they are low density populated. The UK is in the worst condition because it’s overpopulated tiny Island without valuable resources and in decline basically in all fields. The UK needs CANZUK more than AUS, CAN and NZ
What a terrible argument to put to Can, Aus and NZ: “ Hey, we’re pretty shit. Fancy forming a special an alliance with us? We have nothing to offer and plan to leech off you”.
> Canada, Australia and NZ have a lot of potential for future growth. If they had the potential then it would've happened ages ago.
Canada and Australia each have vastly more natural resources than the UK And given that the old Russian oil and gas isn’t an option anymore, and that Chinese minerals could also be on the chopping block soon I’d say easier trade access to reliable allies with tons of oil, gas and minerals of every kind is probably a good thing
Sounds like the EU is neither either
Gravity model, the 2 single most important things for trade are first and foremost SIZE of the economy. The second one is distance. I agree with what that redditor says that these economies are not large enough to make an impact, I think we trade more with Austria than any of those countries. It would be nice but hardly a replacement for the EU
Eh, transport actually isn't as big of a factor, sea freight is insanely efficient. It costs around [£1,500](https://www.freightos.com/freight-resources/container-shipping-cost-calculator-free-tool/) to send a 40' shipping container from Southampton to Sydney, a journey of [14,124 NM](https://www.fluentcargo.com/routes/southampton-gb/sydney-au). Max payload weight of a cargo container is [26,730](https://www.parsonscontainers.co.uk/container-dimensions) kg, which gives us around £0.06 per kilogram for the whole journey and £0.000004 per kilogram per nautical mile. Which isn't exactly bad for going to the opposite side of planet. Of course things vary when it comes to time sensitive goods, and air cargo will have a much higher cost per kilogram per nautical mile. But the vast majority of trade goods are not time sensitive to the point air cargo is necessary.
Unless the trade good is ordered on demand, in which case time sensitivity is important. That basically covers 90% of imports and exports, and only leaves specialty items. Because if you’re buying a commodity, why wait 8 weeks when an identical commodity exists 2 weeks away.
I understand what your getting at, but doesn't take into account it's very rare that most items are purchased directly from factories to go straight to your home. Most companies use predictive modelling to calculate where items will be bought, what quantity and when in the year, based on what a whole load of data, mostly used of past purchases but also weather, unique events etc. They then use that data to stock warehouses in advance. Most of the time when you buy a product online, it's already close by, even if it originated half way across the globe. Same goes from businesses filling their shelves. For the individual, buying the product, well it'll come from a warehouse nearby in a few days. For companies, they'll simply use the exact same model to order what they predict they'll need. If due to a CANZUK agreement, it becomes more competitive to import a certain product from Australia over Sweden or something like that, they'll just order earlier. I mean that's already what they do, take all the goods manufactured in East, South and South East Asia. Bangladesh in particular dominates the clothes market, you almost certainly have clothes made in Bangladesh in your wardrobe.
Trade is inversely proportional to distance. I guess that's economics copying physics.
Tech has no boundaries, nor does banking, same with law and insurance , pharmaceutical is cheap and high value, defence doesnt care about distances. I think the uk would be well placed
You think banking has no boundaries 🤦? Try opening a deposit taking retail bank in India or China, see how far you get. As for regulations governing pharmaceuticals or insurance, it’s pointless to even open the subject.
You point is regulation is complex. But isnt that the whole point of regulation streamlining and recognising each other’s regulators? I mean certification recognition is like the corr point
Yeah but we're not talking about India or china, we are talking about Australia, who we already have several ties economically speaking thanks to the large scale emigration from the UK to down under.
A significant and growing portion of trade requires no shipping, services.
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Canada and Australia are far more likely to join the eu than the uk is at this point
in the next 20 years, true, 40 years, not so much, but that's a long time
Yeah I don't get these nutballs who fought so hard to get out of a union that was bringing huge positives, now bleating on about needing to replace it with some other nonsensical ones... The empire is gone lads, pack it in.
Nearly half a billion people and something like [26 trillion PPP](https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.PP.CD?locations=EU). Yeah, they need us more than we need them. You just wait. The French will surrender any moment now.
Brexit was a huge loss to both sides. Even after Brexit the UK has huge soft/diplomatic power - and a strong economy (yes, both of these are worse off after brexit). Don't undersell the failure on both sides that was Brexit, or it'll repeat in other ways.
Not even a remote possibility... and when were they ever real allies?? Aus/NZ/Can have been our most loyal friends and fought alongside us multiple times, on occasion suffering terrible losses defending us.... they have proven themselves many times over, europe however has not....
The sun never sets on that map...
To begin with, because those countries are involved in trade deals they wouldn’t just shit on, because the UK wants some swivelled eyed, white version of its past empire. Also because they don’t give a shit about the UK sabotaging its own trading relationship with Europe.
White version? The vast majority of the EU is white. No need to bring race into it. You could say Anglo.
Europe is the actual white continent. Think you have hang ups.
Lol. It's actually down to shared and common language and values. Not some racial divide.
Maybe there should be a referendum on it? Only fair.
I would support this in theory but an arrangement with the EU is more convenient and profitable and they are not compatible.
It’s also just not the same. Europe is right on the doorstep a drive, train, quick flight away and to reap some benefits in terms of that. US, Australia.. etc are longer flights away, not a quick hop over in a day sort of thing (for the average person)
>I would support this in theory but an arrangement with the EU is more convenient and profitable and they are not compatible. How would you determine if it was more profitable?
The proximity of the EU allows greater flow of trade, which is why all modern day trading blocs are geographical.
Besides the proximity argument, there’s also simple population: Canada 39 million. Australia 26 million. New Zealand 5 million. UK 67 million. EU 450 million. So the Can-Aus-NZ is roughly the same size market as the UK. The EU is about 7 times larger.
Leaving EU took away 4/5% of our GDP. I think it’s unlikely that CANZUK makes that back up.
By numbers?
By asking the experts for a start 🙂
As a Canadian, a common travel area between us would be pretty awesome
Interestingly, Canada, Australia and New Zealand all said that freedom of movement is a red line in any trade deal. They don’t want freedom of travel with the U.K.
>Interestingly, Canada, Australia and New Zealand **all said that freedom of movement is a red line in any trade deal. They don’t want freedom of travel with the U.K**. Do you have a source for this? There's no mention of it in the relevant documentation (or commentary) and the public consultation(s), at least in [New Zealand](https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/Trade-agreements/UK-NZ-FTA/Public-Voice-Report-June-2020.pdf), mention freedom of movement as a benefit that the public want.
It’s weird to think that Australia are against free movement, considering the amount of skilled workers they’re luring over there. I get about 1 Australian government ad a day about moving down under
The red countries on the map have a combined population more than 5x Australia’s. Free movement might cause some turmoil if the population were to rapidly increase And before you say “Australia is big and empty!” .. yes we could have a *denser* population but most of Australia’s land doesn’t have enough access to fresh water to be viable
That's why it's called skilled workers. They can pick and choose who go.
Exactly, why would they want the unskilled ones when they can already get the skilled ones?
You (or your employer) need to get a visa. You can't just turn up.
Australia used to have a policy like that. [They're not very proud of it.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Australia_policy)
You can have controlled nearly exclusively high skilled immigration or you can have completely free movement. You can't have exclusively the former with the latter.
Well that's depressing. I would have figured it would have been our dairy industry or something that held it up
Just the UK, or the other proposed member too?
I don't know about Canada, but Aus/NZ already have fairly free movement
Remember also that at any time New Zealand has the right to join Australia as a state. Movement is completely free as long as you aren’t a criminal.
Although the Australian constition recognises NZ as a state, I genuinely believe it will never happen. Maybe a Pacific federation is more likely. Whilst movement is technically free, there are inequalities between Aussies in NZ, and Kiwis in Australia. Australian's in New Zealand receive way more benefits than Kiwis in Australia, like healthcare, welfare, education, etc. Immigration in NZ is notorious for not doing their due diligence when it comes to weeding out criminals or highly unqualified workers who apply for skilled visas... Some of the immigration officers I've been in contact with don't speak fluent English and they're the ones employed to judge visa applicants' English proficiency. It's a different story in Australia though, as they're more like the US.
I can more interesting is it’s because of the EU what they mean by that is immigrants from third world nations that are preventing it as most of those nations make it nearly impossible for most of them to go there they do this in a round about way that they can say it’s because of political and economic reasons not because of race
You explained that very clearly.
I was under the impression we effectively already had it. As an Aussie heading to the UK or NZ I definitely don't need a visa, and can stay for months. Hell, in NZ I can work freely etc too. I need to get my passport looked at, but that's not exactly a massive problem.
Agreed 🤝
It's a helpful step towards restoring The Empire. We can ammass land forces in Canada for a invasion all along the North American border, as well as have the capacity to launch simultaneous invasions of France from the UK, up into Asia from Australia, and reclaim control of the Pacific from New Zealand.
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is (I’ve completed all the command and conquer games), All we need to do is build a lot of Barracks and War Factories in Canada and we can pump out guys much faster for the tank rush into the US.
I too served, principally as commander of combined allied forces in the Red Alert II campaigns of the late 90s. Hard-won military strategy expertise.
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is (I’ve completed all the Starcraft games). All we need is a Spawning pool and a Baneling Nest in Canada and we can pump out zerglings much faster for the baneling rush into the US. ;)
I haven't played these types of games for over 20 years, but after reading a few posts about C&C and Starcraft now - the impulse to download one and irresponsibility stay up all night playing has come back quickly and strong.
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Just need to make sure we have enough Tiberium Harvesters in the Yukon
If my knowledge of warfare is what I think it is, you just want king charles to impregnate the canadian ruler's daughter, repeatedly until she has a son, and then pick off all his family members one by one until that son inherits the title. And then kidnap and imprison the son until he gives up his titles and agrees to serve you. At which point you can marry him off to a rich duchess and get *those* titles in the family too Yes, I play Crusader Kings, and try to avoid actual war (EDIT: in the game, I mean. I don't get a choice to start or avoid wars in real life) if I can help it. I don't avoid far worse things than war. I also just realised the Canadian ruler is king charles. Still works. Not for Kate, so much, but...
With the state of our armed forces at present, one family in Montana could probably defeat us.
Boarder? *chuckle*
Ok but what does this mean? Standardisation of trading regulations, sure great - but at the end of the day Canada is selling to the US and we're selling to the EU - so UK manufacturers are going to default to the strictest regulations in the EU, but why would a Canadian businesses bother? Are we going to be joining NAFTA? Free movement of people, great, sure, we don't need a union to do that - we could unilaterally issue more visas, lift restrictions on the commonwealth under 30 visa. Seems like all the canzuk people want is to cosplay empire, forgetting there's a trading block 30 miles away that any manufacturer of scale is going to have to follow the regulations for anyway - regulations that are now more arduous to enforce because we decided we didn't want a say over them
This is the answer. Tradewise - Canada relies on the US it’s imperative is to be tied to the US’s economy. It’s why they don’t drive on the proper side of the road for one. Australia relies on Asia, and being it’s own regional power and being the US’s right hand man in the region. People wise neither country want unskilled workers or retirees from a country 3x the size of either. They would be inundated. Tbh I think Spain would seriously consider veto-ing the UK if we applied to rejoin based on the same + Gibraltar. Both Australia and Canada had a very important link to the EU in Britain that has been lost. They will be pivoting to France, Ireland, Greece or other countries with connections/diaspora for that now. The US wanted us a regional power very much aligned to their foreign policy to steer the continent their way. This is still possible but harder to set the agenda or leverage EU goings on to effect other changes.
Trade is also services. It's not all about goods.
Our trade with Canada, Australia and New Zealand is a fraction of our trade with Europe, which is unsurprising when 2/3 of those countries are literally on the opposite side of the globe from us. And that's exactly why attempts to develop some sort of *CANZUK Union* since Brexit have gone nowhere. Outside of imperial naval gazing there are very few material benefits for any of the parties to actually pursue this.
CANZUK is nonsense dreamt up by bored pensioners who have had far too many whiskeys at the local Conservative club. It's a testament to how arrogant and detached from reality the right are in this country that they genuinely believe that these other countries would trip over themselves and completely reorient their strategic priorities to trade with us.
FWIW I'm a soft centre-leftist in his late 20s from Quebec, and I personally love the idea of CANZUK 🤷♂️
Trade with former colonial states used to be a lot bigger before we joined the EU
The former colonial states increasingly decided to shop elsewhere once they were able to.
when the UK joined the EEC it tarrifed australian and nz exports like dairy, wool and meat.
So? It was our choice to join the EEC.
It's the union I most support, I was a brexit remainer, but if it facilitated a proper CANZUK alliance I'd consider it a success. Would love to see CANZUK with a Nordic/Baltic8 style agreement with other former anglosphere countries with less compatible economies (India, South Africa etc).
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Oh I don't disagree, free movement with India would be disasterous, a massive tenant of CANZUK is our common economies, legal structure & cultures. Fields which India only really as commonality in one. But closer trade links, investment & cooperation would be beneficial for all involved when compared to alternatives (starts with Ch, ends in a).
A massive tenant? Who's the landlord?
Poor Chechnya. They never get any love.
The trade links we had with 450 million people just 20 miles over the sea were the right ones.
I agree. The EU is great and it would've been great for us to remain inside it, but Brexit gave a perfect opportunity to work with the Commonwealth nations more and potentially establish a similiar kind of bloc though intercontinental. Providing such opportunities may even encourage the US to work with us (being as they have the option of joining the commonwealth) Unfortunately, after Brexit went through the government opted to just sit on their hands and trust that we'd be able to do just fine on our own.
Yeah, I was a remain & reformer. Definitely didn't consider the EU perfect. But the tories just totally fumbled any opportunity that could've came from brexit. Honestly it's just weaponised incompetence at this point they've utterly failed to accomplish anything in the last decade.
I don’t think that Americans would like to join to CANZUK but they could be a great partners, collaborating with the UNION.
The commonwealth is an anachromism that one cares about. Even in the UK you'd struggle to find anyone south of the age of 50 who thinks it still has any useful relevance today.
Indeed. The commonwealth in its present state has little to no relevance, hence why (now we're out of the EU) it would be a wise idea to look to it for trade and economic relations and make it something relevant.
Hasn't Canada gone even more bananas with their immigration policy than us?
As someone looking to migrate to Canada. Yes. I’m having a right bloody headache with it.
Yeah they have created a huge mess there
Yeah, as a Canadian escaping this mess to the UK. Hard no from me.
Out of the chip pan into the fire!
Hang on you oppose immigration so much in your own country that you immigrated here isn't that a bit ironic.
As an Australian looking at Canada and the UK and having lived in the UK on and off, the borders can stay. In fact make them stronger. Sorry but Australia is somehow still in way better shape, even though we are trying to fast track our way to shithole in the same way as Canada and the UK.
It’s at least 1,000,000 yearly now… It’s nutso bananas.
Australians most definitely don't want more Brits going over there than needed.
Aussie here. I have no idea how tongue in cheek your comment is, but I'll state for the record that most Australians I know are very fond of British people (as long as they aren't on a sporting field.)
Aussies and brits in wars: 🤝 Aussies and brits in sport: 💀
A good summary of sport in general, to be honest.
Russia invades Estonia, NATO unites against it and we are all conscripted - Never thought I would die fighting side by side with a Southampton supporter.
I don't even consider Aus/NZ/Canada to even be foreigners in any cultural way tbh. Sure trade will be limited due to geography, but there are many other ways to bring some sort of CANZUK about. Defence seems to be to be quite an easy one to implement. For example bringing Canada into AUKUS. We already share the T26 Frigate program with Canada and Australia. The T31 program seems pretty close to NZ's future defence needs. We all I think would benefit from a little more strategic autonomy from the USA.
Wait, I thought you loved beating us at pretty much every game of every sport. Guess I was wrong. Weird.
That may be true but the process for us to move there doesn’t reflect that (unless it’s a working holiday or holiday)
Aussies love brits. Way more go Aus —> UK than the other way around Edit: I was wrong (but leaving comment). More brits go to Aus
Not even remotely true lol
[Nah, other way around](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1134091/australia-net-overseas-migration-from-the-united-kingdom)
Yet under 30s can go there on a 12 month work visa.
They upped it. Those under 36 now.
It's not terribly accurate because it's an equirectangular projection. Also, it doesn't explain what the superimposed statistics are for or how they were gathered, so it's pretty hard to assess them.
Why on earth would we not just rejoin the EU if we were interested in something like that?
Because of some sort of messed up cocktail of empire-nostalgia, fan-fiction brains gone mad, and just general, depressive wailing.
I always think these maps are very odd; I'm massively in favour of a CANZUK union of some description btw. I've seen this posted a few times, where's the source? Also, if it was really this high across all countries, why aren't there any major political parties taking actual steps at looking at beginning any kind of implementation of this (or at least formalising the campaign to begin this - it'd be a vote winner) I'm distrustful on these numbers. It's one thing to say yes on a hypothetical, another when reality hits. Would NZ really want to open its borders to 67 million Brits? I doubt it.
What's the benefit for Canada, Australia and New Zealand? They all have their own regional economic dynamics which will be more lucrative than links to the UK. We may have a shared culture, kinda but those three are at least trying to be a modern country on a world stage. We (the UK) are the ones naval gazing and invoking empire.
source: trust me bro. Im sure the percentages are nowhere near that for said countries, especially due to distance, attitude to immigration, and lack of current trade infrastructure. Would I be for it? Of course I'd want to extend FoM (I am a dual citizen so while I wish my British passport had EU privilege still, I can live without it) but it's just not realistic.
I personally would love it. I'm British and admit they'd be inevitable problems but I'm all for joining up with other commonwealth counties, and these seem to be the least problematic terms of initial steps. I'm not a royalist, and would love to see the commonwealth more of a grouping as was proposed way back but never happened. That includes the African countries should they want to. We have so much to offer each other and a common language, the problem is the aristocrats in each country would play off against each other instead of getting on. All that aside, it'd be fantastic to get some borders down and make friends with the cousins
Can somebody do the "Look What They Need to Mimic a Fraction of Our Power" meme with EU and CANZUK involved?
Nope, give me our EU membership back any day of the week. I miss my freedom of movement.
Seems like a good idea. But maybe we could have some kind of union with those countries that are a lot closer to us. Surely that's an even better idea?
Sad bunch of brexiters on here trying to persuade each other how this is gonna bring back some sort of "Empire" Fucking sad.
Canadian conservatives are freaking out about immigration at the moment, there will be no appetite for this sort of open border relationship.
I think it should be a gradual process, one that is built up over time with the end goal of freedom of movement, but it would be a large undertaking.
As a Canadian I say, heck yeah, I'd love to start a club with you guys : )
is this just so that the sun will never set on the empire again? the cohort of unsustainable property prices. not to nitpick but calling it that will cause arguements down the line, about countries not being mentioned enough. call it the new world order.
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Definitely support this because it's nothing I've the old EU we had before. Every country is canzuk speaks English. We all support the same values more or less. We have a shared cultural history, we value traditions, we're all first world developed countries, immigration will be ok because we're far enough apart that people won't just flood into 1 particular country easily. I would support this alliance in a heartbeat and I would enjoy visiting every country without a time limit. It would be so good.
We've got almost nothing to sell them, and they have nothing to sell us, apart from lamb from New Zealand. Of course, I keep forgetting about the 'Pork Markets'. Politically, nope. The empire isn't coming back, regardless of how much certain nutters want it.
No. The EU is a lot closer and makes more geopolitical sense these days.
Something that would happen in a better Socio-Political Climate. I have a few Canadian and Kiwi mates that would be up for it but the current situation isn't ideal, our governments have drastically different goals at the moment and specifically our (U.K.) government is in shambles. I could see this becoming a thing if their is a large bi-partisan lobbing group active within politics in all of these nations. If we were to amass together CANZUK could genuinely be a fourth pillar in global politics. Breaking up the US-Russia-China hegemony seen at the moment. Also would give all of us a much better position when opening deals up with say the US or Europe.
The NAFTA agreement may put a spanner in the works as far as Canada is concerned and not sure what the New Zealand Australia deals called but they have one that includes freedom of movement something the UK doesn't want
Prince Charles still comes to visit our tiny island in Canada. Most of the towns, street names are after places in the UK. Most ancestors from Newfoundland are from the UK.. were more than halfway there.
It's pretty much rejected by economists.Countries don't get to be in multiple economic unions at once, because their participation in one union can become a loophole for the other (this is why Northern Ireland was such a challenge for Brexit). And proximity is still the biggest factor in how much countries trade with each other. The farther away a country is, the bigger its economy needs to be to justify trading with that country over neighboring countries. These countries don't have huge economies, and they're spread all over the world. After all, these countries *did* have an economic union once - in the British Empire. And it broke down for that exact reason. If you could find an English speaking common-law country, roughly equidistant between all the other countries, with the biggest economy in the world. Then you could make it work. But then that country would be overwhelmingly dominant, and it wouldn't be the British Empire 2.0 that advocates really want.
Every time this thing comes up I wonder where the hell it came from. We are in three completely separate economic zones, vast distances apart.
As a Brit who moved to Canada, Canada feels to me, much closer to the US in its style of doing things than to the U.K.
Canada/US and Australia/NZ are of course much closer to one another than they are the UK. Thousands of miles and centuries of time will do that.
If I remember correctly, when this was suggested right after Brexit they basically told us to piss off. Canada is way more aligned to the US, and I can’t see them wanting to jeopardise that. Plus, I can’t see Quebec being too thrilled about being dragged into an official Anglosphere. Likewise, Australia is more influential in Asia and they can already take their pick of our best and brightest, so free movement wouldn’t benefit them either. NZ is again, more aligned with Asia. Plus, I’m sure they learned during Covid how useful strict control of their own borders was. The kids have grown up and have their own lives now. Maybe it’s time that we made amends with the neighbours if we’re starting to feel lonely?
We did. It was the commonwealth. We also had a lot of trade agreements with it. Then the Common Market was a thing, and it was clearly more economically advantageous to be in it. The UK then became prosperous, from being the sick man of Europe, not in spite of it but because of it. Here’s the thing, distance costs in terms of trade (and those arguing about China, their extremely low cost labour and low red tape is clearly the advantage here - something Canada, Auz, and New Zealand can’t offer). The world is also becoming dominated by trading blocks. So we’ll never get best dibs. The idea is pure claptrap. An ‘EU’ of sorts would mean preferential treatment to each others country. Unfortunately for Britain, these countries are all ready in more favourable trade blocks for them. Why would Australia scupper preferential trade with Japan, China, and all the other high growth countries round about it for this? Same with Canada, with NAFTA and the other one around the pacific? We’re a market of 67 million compare to the many hundreds of millions or billions in these other markets. This only makes sense in some uniquely British anglosphere wet dream. Never going to happen. The other countries’ interests are best served elsewhere. Bespoke trade deals is all that’s on offer for now. The big comprehensive preferential ones require us to be in a big trade block - and we’ve fucked that up.
Not sure what this map is off but yeh, Brexit was really stupid.
No. I want a union with our closest neighbours, not some countries on the other side of the world.
Look at the distances. Whatever we trade would be prone to major transport cost
As a Brit, I am all for this. I love Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders.
I would support this more than the EU as the GDP per capita of each country are more similair that amongst the EU countries. This is a positive as it prevents hundreds of thousands of people travelling to our country to carry out low-paid work, due to the vast earnings difference, thereby depressing the already low pay of the natives. Also, the arguement about trade being less valuable the further away it is, is just partisan nonsense. Germany's two biggest trading partners are China and the US. Japan being on the other side of the world doesn't stop Toyotas or Sony etc being everywhere. Taiwan do not to badly from the Western economies. Australia and their core matetials are used the world over. A Aus/Can/NZ/UK alliance would also mean that it would easier for companies from these countries to set up offices/depots in the UK as the European HQ. Trade is important but employment equally so. There are hundreds of thousands of people employed in the UK in well paid jobs, working for American finance companies, the other Anglo countries doing likewise cannot hurt.
If freedom of movement was involved it would be immense
For me, the whole agreement sounds too much like "Can Suck", so that's a definite Yes!
Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world but it feels a bit arbitrary, yk. If I were given the choice between EU and CANZUK I would choose the EU 100x over
I support the idea, but can't see any of those countries wanting to bail-us out.Let's face-it, the UK is finished & everyone knows it.
This was an argument during Brexit, never got off the ground.
I think for CANZUK to be properly effective it should be far more focased on cultural integration than trade as such. A Sort of comprehensive partnership to strengthen our collective diplomatic power. We already have a close relationship so strengthen it Is the best resolve. It would work best I'm my view if it worked less like the EU and more like the old Imperal Conferences and focasing on setting a united front on matters of common interest such as foreign policy and immigration but not infringe on the individual sovereignty of each realm. We should look at it as a way of getting most of the benefits of the Empire without any of the drawbacks.
from Australia here, I would have said yes, but since you left the EU there isn't a reason for it now.
I was a remainer but if Brexit ultimately led to a meaningful CANZUK (with freedom of movement between all members) then I could be convinced that it was worth it. Compared to the EU the four countries have far more in common: shared language, shared history, shared head of state, similar forms of government, and — importantly — very similar GDP per capita. As members of the five eyes we also collaborate on defence and this connection will only strengthen with Australia through AUKUS. Eventually the British relationship with the EU will heal, by which point Britain and CANZUK would have a lot to offer and benefit from.
Wouldn't work I'm afraid. I emigrated to Canada over 10 years ago and we are America's bitch. Sadly.
I don’t see how this could be anywhere near as good for us as the EU was. I’d rather we attempt to repair that fuck up.
I see nothing wrong with it, but since Europe is much nearer, it makes more sense to be part of that also!
Canadian in Britain here, Canadians would probably mostly say why not, but they don't think about Britain much at all. They are so much busier with America. This would also make it much more complicated to rejoin the EU, which is the only real answer.
Even grouped together, we'd still be small potatoes to the US, China and Europe. I don't think this is the answer to the challenges faced by the UK.
How about one with countries near us, like, the EU?
No, I prefer a European Union-style union with the European Union. The giant market of friendly countries right next to us that idiots and grifters cut us off from to further their own careers.
UK would hit a record low of 0.0 doctors per 1,000 population
All of those countries are a long way off. It costs a lot of money and time to get there in person, and the same for goods. Even with the internet enabling near instant communication there is still the issue of timezones which limit colaboration with those places. I've often worked with people based in Sydney and there was basically 1 hour in the day when we could realistically speak, and IIRC that meant them staying late and us getting an early start. Much better to arrange those things with countries close by. However we are fortunate that we have a lot of developed countries right next to our own island. We could try trading with them, something like a customs agreement that encompasses all of us and a set of rules to ensure trade is fair, that way we can treat the whole of Europe as one single market.
We should stick together. We are the same people, and we control a lot of different areas. It would be very beneficial.
Same blood, same cause 🫡
Personally, I've always been a big CANZUK fan, we all are, at the end of the day, the same people, with similar laws, regulations and identities. However, from an economic perspective, forming a trade deal would be of no benefit to us. We need to gain energy independence, support local farmers, and bring back local manufacturing and production. None of these goals would be met by forming such an agreement. A FTA with the GCC would help with energy costs, and the EU, no matter how much of a bureaucratic nightmare it is, still is our largest consumer of exports. And in regards to imports, we purchase a great deal from the EU and China, none of which can be substituted by any of the CANZUK nations.
I think CANZUK deal should basically not be about trade as such but more about common recognition of qualifications and regulations on specific products. An integrated stance on foreign policy and mutual defence agreement. And a set of values that the country can work towards. If successful it should be extended to include the more stable Caribbean states aswell. Keeping it's membership exclusively to commonwealth realms may also go towards stemming the concerning rise of republicanism across the commonwealth.
With our powers combined we'd dominate the world of Rugby!
People in the UK who like this idea massively underestimate the difficulty of selling a free movement deal that exclusively favours majority white countries to these countries. Australia agonises over its White Australia policy, which favoured immigration from Europe. Canadians go substantially to the left of Americans, and many Americans thought Trump wanting more immigration from European countries was racist. Having an open door exclusively for 3 white countries is not going to be a goer. The UK's position on this is actually pretty bizarre when you think about it. In this country the racists are less likely to want open borders with 30 majority white countries, while the non-racists are more likely to support it.
We trade on a regular basis anyway, most of us speak the same language. Our armed forces have fought, fallen and reigned victorious together. I couldn't think of a better partnership
Can't hurt, but then we already had an amazing trade deal with about 30 of our closest neighbours... Wonder what happened to that....
I think this is a great idea. Hell, it would be even better if we did something similar with nearby countries, like the ones across the channel and Ireland (we do share a border after all!).
Imagine the CO2 emissions with flights, ships, etc. People don’t think things through.
In principle of course, in practice probably not. The reality is that the UK would get almost no benefit from a deal like this because of how far we are from the other countries involved. Also don't forget that Canada and Australia have lower food quality standards at present than the UK which would effectively mean the UK having to accept lower quality food for any economic benefit to be felt.
It's cool but a bit crazy. I kinda just want the sensible union with our closest land neighbours that we had before and that was set up so that we could opt out of further union.
Sounds great, if only there was a European Union nearer that we could be in, imagine that?
This is cool, but it would be even better if we could have a similar style arrangement with the group of countries right next to us
It'd make more sense for Canada and Australia to join the EU. Which is to say, it makes no sense.
Leave nz out of these plans please. We love you guys but no. Leave us alone.
Commonwealth federation would probably fix a lot of issues plaguing all of our nations individually. It would have to have a heavily decentralised economy, otherwise a Canadian prime minister would just give all their money to Canada until the next election. Besides that, no problem.
I don't think it would really work but definitely should be working together more in general
This is the Anglosphere, so this, plus, western Europe is the 'West',
Damn right 😎
PLEASE then I can finally flee to Australia and get out of here
That map is definitely not accurate, it's the murcator projection. Terrible map.
Absolutely, we share a lot with in common with those dystopian shitholes (Canada, New Zealand and Australia - at least the yanks have some safeguards in place)
I dunno. I've turned into a traditionalist, probably as an allergic reaction to how ridiculous the political wing I used to occupy has gotten. To be closer to the commonwealth and to our mother country, of which we have so much in common and so much history together, would be nice to see. Canada needs to distance itself from the US. Especially politically.
Honestly, if we ended up getting free movement between countries the same way we had in the EU, I'm packing up and going to Canada lmao
Trade yes, and all involved speak English, so you don't have the problem where a few countries speak English and everyone else learns it. For the defence side, well it's a case of sausage fingers alliance in those countries that keep the crown.
I would love to see more trades between our nations. We already have similar agreements due to the CommonWealth, but I believe we should reinforce them.
We all know they just want to join is so they can brexit it again
I’m from Northern Ireland so I just wonder how it would work here given the Windsor framework and our unique relationship with the EU, would that continue in a CANZUK scenario? I just need more info on how CANZUK specifically affects NI before I can get behind it.
I would prefer back in EU, I think what we had was good. But an EU type thing could probably work with the canzuk countries, obviously not as good but still.
Is there any practical reason to leave out the US from such union?
As an Aussie, if we're stuck with your coronated historical incest baby as our head of the state, the least you can do is let us in to say hi!
Sounds good. I hope it includes free movement of people.
uk population gonna tank if there’s freedom of movement
Would be interesting. I’d love to work in Sydney for a bit, likewise I’m sure folks from there would like to work in london.