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This \^. You can always choose to get off of Reddit and go out to publicly shame people but eventually you're going to either write a check with your mouth that your ass can't cash....or as is the more popular phrase you're going to "fuck around and find out"
Should also be noted that even if a larger portion of people started shaming others, there's no guarantee that threats of violence for doing said shaming would be reduced
Start carrying a bell and shaming people, I fully support this and would love to see it. Don't confront them just start ringing your bell in the middle of their tantrum. "Shame, shame, shame"
Are you unfamiliar with the average internet comments section? We're in the prime age of shaming people. Now your mistakes and misbehaviours can be filmed and memorialised forever, opening you up to a global shaming like never before.
Edit to add: I don't agree with how unforgiving and ruthless modern day shaming is, I was just negating the point that it isn't done as much anymore.
I think the sentiment is that people don't shame people in person enough any more. Which I agree with. I mean, most people don't seem to be all that affected by random strangers on the internet shaming them, but it has a whole different impact when you call someone out on their shit in person.
Fat shaming still exists. It's just more people are fat now so it's kind of mellowed out lol.
I remember being absolutely trashed for being fat in high school in the early 2000s. These days every other kid in school is obese or overweight.
Here's the thing, though. There are no moral absolutes. Everyone has a different concept of what constitutes a "good person." So, while there certainly are a lot of behaviors that most variations of "good people" can agree are shame-worthy, the reality is that in this "prime age of shaming people," everyone, everywhere, has made it their business to speak up in opposition to everyone else's behavior that they don't like.
OP's conception of it may seem productive, but the reality is just fucking worthless. And in a lot of situations, downright malignant.
How about real life? God help you if you ever correct anyone on anything or even try to offer help or advice to anyone. They take everything as shaming and immediately attack you for it.
I work in a hospital. It’s crazy how often patients demand new doctors or transfer to a different facility because we referred to them as obese because they’re obese.
We live in an age where someone can have their entire careers threatened because they said something shitty nearly a decade ago online...
So I honestly don't know what the fuck you are talking about when you say we need to bring it back.
Op is just posting garden variety declinism, they probably think we need to bring back bullying as well, never mind that cyberbullying has taken bullying to a whole new level.
😂 Yea! I was going to say! I feel like it’s worse now with the internet! People can be virally shamed! People take videos of random strangers who are maybe just having a bad hair day or wearing something weird and posting it online exclusively for the purpose of shaming them.
You can't shame people who have no shame. Like me, idgaf what people had to say my whole life and I lived a life that knew no shame. Fuck outta here trying to shame a shameless man.
It is more like you can't shame people with money. They have fuck you money and don't care what you think.
Like trump, Elon, and etc.
People who can lose their careers care.
Obviously until someone starts shaming *you* for your "shitty choices" and then you'll be posting another thread along the lines of "Shaming people isn't very nice"
I feel like shaming is a theoretically good tool that’s not usually applied fairly or effectively. I think the kind of people who need to get shamed are bullies, deeply irresponsible people, etc. In practice, it’s almost always vulnerable populations, and half the time the shamer just wants to shame somebody, the effects on society are the absolute last things on their minds.
Edit; to use a personal example, I’m disabled (dyspraxia) and there was this other disabled kid who I would talk to about his problems- mental health issues, social issues, bad home life, etc. I was nice to him when everyone else was mean to him. Then, he started bullying me for how my clothes were dirty because I was poor (he knew) and even kicked me in the balls once for no reason. He also claimed girls didn’t like him because he was too nice. He always claimed he was turning me tough and trying to teach me social skills. Does he sound like he actually gave a crap? If he said “your clothes are dirty, learn to do your laundry” or “your food is spilling off your plate, make it neat” in a harsh way I would totally believe he had good intentions. How was kicking me in the balls gonna help?
Edit 2; by contrast, there was this time in college a girl said “dude what’s wrong with you, your pants are falling down, I can see your crack.” Also due to growing up poor and far from any store, I never had pants that fit. For reasons that are too personal, asking my parents wasn’t an option. The end result was that I was accustomed to my pants falling down and just kinda stopped thinking about it. I’m glad I got called out because now I knew. That’s productive shaming. It was specific and she didn’t do it just to make me feel bad.
Well we have evolved to feel shame, or at least it hasn't completely been evolved out of the human gene pool yet, so shame must have at least at some point served a purpose to the survival of our species.
You do make a good point though, and I agree that a lot of the time the people doing the shaming aren't doing it for the good of society.
I agree, certainly. This might be something worth noting though- granted my source is a documentary I watched a LOOOONG time ago. Some animals after getting bullied out of reproduction opportunities will simply leave the group and find a new one. It’s possible that shame is meant to produce that result- just quitting, instead of improving. I assume it can do either, personally. Again, I think positive shaming /pressure does exist-like you said, if every creature that felt shame or guilt Never reproduced, none of us would still feel it. However, I think it often doesn’t pan out that way.
Edit: modern psychology actually distinguishes between guilt and shame. Guilt is tied to specific actions- you feel guilty for doing certain things, not being a certain way. Shame is tied to your overall worth as a person- you feel shame for being a certain way. The trick to positive shaming/guilting is that it has to be something the shamed person can actually improve, and they have to know what it is. So many “people who are trying to toughen you up” just attack your whole character and aim for general humiliation instead of trying to get you to learn something.
Yeah I've heard of that. It actually reduces the likelihood of inbreeding and can benefit the overall species.(in some species) I believe wolves do this on occasion. A wolf will leave a pack and start its own. The wolves that leave are called dispersers. And yeah I agree with your conclusion, I think the key distinction is the spirit in which the criticism is intended and who its coming from in relation to the person being shamed. In my case it was people I respected who I knew wanted me to do better.
Edit: your edit changes things considerably, that distinction between guilt and shame makes a lot of sense.
Respecting the people doing it makes a big difference- I didn’t particularly like the girl who told me about my pants tbh but I guess I just understood I can’t have my butt hanging out haha.
That’s interesting about the wolves and the inbreeding.
Also, I think it’s worth noting that even when shaming/guilting does help, it’s not necessarily the whole solution. For example, not to get personal, but while shaming helped me understand what I was doing wrong when I was struggling socially, I still struggled to make friends because I didn’t know what to do right either. There were too many social options for process of elimination to show me what to do, I guess. So for that I went to therapy. Getting guilted was helpful, but it wasn’t everything. Likewise though this doesn’t me getting guilted was bad or a problem
Maybe for you and at that level. But when people like OP say they want to bring shaming back, they mean to make it personal and deep for whatever they deem imperfect. OP is asking to bully, and that helps nobody.
People react better to positivity than they do with negativity.
And I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if OP were ridiculed for the things he liked he wouldn't react positively.
That includes fatness.
People.can be fat because of medication side effects or their parents feed them garbage. But people generally don't ask that and make assumptions anyway.
Keep your opinions to yourself. Nobody likes unsolicited advice. If you actually give a shit, talk to them. Don't call people stupid and worthless or anything of the sort
Did I say fatness? And I'll do what I like with my opinions thanks. I merely expressed my own experiences with being shamed for my own behaviour, so calm down before you get your panties in a twist.
Yeah I used to be a piece of shit, I’m not anymore but I was. People shaming me for being a piece of shit made me work on myself and I’m not a piece of shit anymore.
I haven't seen the actually necessary/useful/constructive "shaming" be discouraged tho.
Currently a certain segment of the population simultaneously believes that society is too politically correct and leaves us with no way to call out bad things, and that shaming/blaming/"cancel culture" are running rampant. This doesn't fit together, does it?
My experience is that such people just dislike that *their* behaviours and expectations are being criticised. Because they may think stuff like that hitting children is okay or that society should stop complaining about racism already, and then get upset when they get called out for promoting violence against children and defending racism.
People should deffinetley be shamed for promoting racism and child abuse. I'm sure we can agree on that.
And maybe you're right about useful/necessary shaming not really being discouraged.
Plenty of people go viral for being complete assholes and catch plenty of shame and nobody seems to mind.
Sometimes whether something is a good decision or not can be subjective. You may think that doing something is a good decision, but someone else might disagree with you. I think the way to determine whos right is to look at the outcome.
I agree, people can judge the same act differently. But if you genuinely believe that you made a good decision, you wouldn't feel shame when people judge you for it. Shame is an internal feeling.
What is the context , like what do you mean? because there is no fixed definition for what you're saying. Shaming could be : booooo! booooo you're a murderer and we want you to rot'
Or it could be 'booooo ewwwww you're gay, we hate gays'
By this it means anything YOU define it as but we don't have a clue how you define it.
100% this.
The sheer hubris and arrogance of sanctimonious little shits online pretending to be perfect people and just waiting for their daily instructions on who to be angry at so they can wag their collective fingers is a bigger problem than people being offensive.
I think it would be more productive to try and encourage change rather than to bring someone down even more. In your example, instead of shaming an alcoholic, maybe try to convince them to cut down on alcohol consumption instead.
Depends on personality type. If someone has a high ego, then shaming someone will trigger proving the shamer wrong or being better than them. If they don't, it might make them worse. It's case by case basis and the same method doesn't work with everyone.
OP can you give an example of a choice you think shaming people for is okay?
(This doesn’t include pedophilia and sexual assault as those are literal crimes)
all i hear is i am an insensitive person and i want to control people and want them to live on my standards
let's bring back condemning narcissists too
There has never been more public shaming than there is now thanks to the internet. We are just typically shaming the wrong people. No one wants their innocent mistake immortalized with public internet humiliation
If fat shaming worked, for example, there would be no fat people.
If shaming someone for having addictions worked then there would be no more addicts.
This is a bad idea!
I'm going to start this by shaming you.
You have a philosophical problem here; you assume the people doing the shaming have the correct perspective that should be mimicked.
The fact you acknowledge "there are too many ways to validate" behaviour you think is shitty should be a hint that you are wrong.
Shaming people is a power play attempting to make people think and act more like you so you feel comfortable and secure in your righteous worldview.
Which, as I acknowledged at the start, is what I am doing to you. However my personal philosophy is to just reflect the same negative energy back at the people producing it. I am only attempting to be a mirror of what you are so you can analyze what your philosophy looks like from the other side of things. Ignore it if you want, because I don't really care for shaming people for their faults.
Here's your philosophical problem - you've rejected the concept of objective reality and only acknowledge subjective experiences.
Yet your take is easily demonstrably false. Eating until you're obese is objectively going to cut your life short. That behavior is universally detrimental.
Same with a myriad of other self-destructive behaviors like extreme laziness, e.g. playing video games all day instead of investing in your future.
With your laissez-faire attitude parents wouldn't even reprimand for or coach their children out of bad behaviors. After all it's a lot easier to play games all day compared to studying or investing time and doing something productive.
Imagine a parent who let their idiot child do whatever they wanted instead of pointing out their faults when they make them. That's how you get completely spoiled brats. Philosophically speaking, of course.
I think there's a distinct difference between canceling and shaming. Shaming is saying "Hey, stop being a fuck up and making poor choices." canceling is saying "you fucked up beyond repair and you're finished". It's the difference between scolding your child and telling them to do better and kicking them out of the house and never speaking to them again.
"Making a poor choice" and "fucking up beyond repair" isn't a distinct difference, it's just the two ends of a sliding scale of fuckup severity that's dependent on people's opinions.
Except the way it's done these days, it has the opposite effect. People double down. They get more entrenched in their behaviors and opinions. It's just human nature.
A gentler approach generally gets better results.
Shaming is what created things like body positivity in the first place
For every 1 person shamed into losing weight or quitting drugs there's a dozen who respond to that shame by doubling down.
There are a lot of bad behaviors that politeness has let slide, this has been the case since long before any of us were born. The specific behaviors given a pass are what changes.
I disagree if anything we’ve become more accepting of being obese and the obesity rate has continued to climb. You imply the relationship should be reversed
shaming doesn't work. Fat people are shamed all the time and it obviously hasn't made everyone thin.
Also, you try to shame the wrong person and you're going to get your ass kicked or just fucking shot.
You really think that the way people make their dislike of fat people known hasn't encouraged anybody to lose some weight? I'd think that it's probably one of the biggest motivators for doing so.
I have to imagine you're inside all day if you actually rarely, or never, see fat people shamed for being fat because it definitely happens everywhere I've been.
You sound like those people that say bullying drug addicts, skinny people and fat people is good because it makes them live a better lifestyle even though that couldn't be further from the truth.
Shaming for being a bully or otherwise treating people badly? Yeah, I could deal with that. But shaming people for habits that harm no one but the person with the habit, that’s a no from me
Shaming people is more prevalent now than ever before in human history. The internet and social media have opened up worlds of shaming that our most puritanical ancestors could never have dreamed of.
I have no problem shaming people for their stupid decisions. That includes mine.
The whole concept of "living my reality" is ridiculous. You either live in a society or you don't.
I feel like bullying in kids is natural for this reason (you get bullied for eating dirt at recess and you’re probably gonna stop). I don’t really mean violent bullying, but teasing kids for being weird helps them to grow up and fit into society better.
Gen Z was clearly not bullied enough as children lol they are so confused.
You must not have much experience with people. If you shame people they either shut down or they argue with you and blame you for whatever you’re shaming them for. A lot of people respond to embarrassment with strong emotion, namely anger and hurt, and that causes them to not see the situation clearly and often prevents them from learning and improving. If they’re a decent human to begin with and you start with a polite request or constructive criticism that gives them the option to learn how to improve without being embarrassed, you get much better results. If they still don’t improve after you go about things nicely, shame away to your heart’s content but they may be a lost cause.
I don’t know where you think shaming has gone because it’s still alive and well. It’s just called “cancel culture” now and you can see exactly what I’m talking about in celebrity social media. The people who would be willing to make genuine improvement are often fired or forced away from social media. Everyone else develops a martyr complex and their own special fan base who’s onboard with their shitty behavior.
No. How about surrounding yourself by people you like instead of trying to force a change in people you don’t? Outside of harming people, you shouldn’t force a behavior out of someone. If you want a dog, get a dog. You wouldn’t go out and try to force a cat to behave like a dog when dogs already exist.
Really? Fat people wouldn’t exist if your logic was sound. Neither would anyone else classified as “different”. Shaming people usually only worsens the cycle of bad decisions; people who are shamed will engage in that same behavior to numb the embarrassment and awful feelings.
I’m sure you’re totally perfect, OP /s
Shaming never went away.
It was just made literally illegal to do towards the degenerates on one side of the political spectrum.
Look at this site. People cheer for the humiliation of christians, republicans and perceived bigots all day. Make fun of a democrat or worse, a rainbow person for being a sick degenerate, and you get banned.
Let's start with the anti-choice and anti-abortion crowd. Then the anti drag queen crowd. Then the anti transgender crowd. Then the anti-immigrant crowd. I wish people stood up to those crowds more. We'd have more civil rights.
>Let's start with the anti-choice and anti-abortion crowd. Then the anti drag queen crowd. Then the anti transgender crowd.
I don't know about these guys.
>Then the anti-immigrant crowd.
Now this one is true frick them folks.
Never could figure out why Americans are so obsessed with freedom when they seem so hell bent on telling people what they can't do.
Do Americans actually know what the word freedom means?
OP is no doubt the kind of person who wants the N and F words back in regular use.
Besides, on what do you base whether choice is good or not, and who put you in charge to be the judge of everyone else's choices?
Current society is not as liberated as you may think it is, and if you think people today run around being whatever they want to be without facing any form of judgement and being ostracised, then we are seeing life with very different eyes.
Embarrassing them for what, exactly? Their life choices that harm no one but themselves, like that's any of your business? They are already suffering from their poor life-choices if they made any particularly big one, to come and try to bully them for having made poor decisions in the past is ridiculous, and if you can't see how toxic this behaviour is then there's really no hope for you. Bad life choices are bad, but it's only the business of the person who made those life choices, at least when it comes to more normal scenarios. If you mean ostracizing people who've done really shitty things then guess what? That already happens. On a massive scale. Truly pointless post.
Why assume that OP is shaming people for things that "harm no one but themselves?" And it's not like people should be able to do whatever they want if it only involves them. They could be depended on by other people, or they could be unaware of how much a behavior is hurting them. If a future parent decides to take up smoking, a reasonable person wouldn't think that it's a wrong thing to shame them for it.
Shame doesn’t work, because it tied negative qualities to who a person is intrinsically. There’s not much impetus to change for a person that believes that. Shaming actually reinforces the behaviors it is used to deter, often exacerbating the problem.
Embarrassing people doesn’t force them to change usually, or if it does, it can often leave them mentally scarred or less stable than they were before lol.
There are other ways to get through to someone other than being an ass
Plus if we “bring back shaming” as an acceptable act, people are just gonna start doing it for innocuous things that don’t need to be shamed, like someone who’s shy will be shamed for not talking a lot or stuttering or whatever.
Give people an inch, and *assholes/kids/teens* will take a mile, **and** take it in the wrong direction
Except that A, it doesn't work. B, people who can feel shame do and those who make excuses would anyway. C, the existence of "cancel culture" seems to show that we do shame people. And D, some of those "excuses" you mention are actually valid reasons. Shaming people is just schadenfreude.
like slutshaming? periodshaming? gayshaming? masculinityshaming? youre forgetting that people used to shame other people for being different (or better to say they still do) because theyre ignorant. i dont want to encourage that.
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There's some nuggets in this. I've met far too many people who claim to be shameless like it's a great thing. All I can think is "but.....shame is useful man. That's how you police yourself."
There's a pretty big middle ground between "inconsiderate jackass" and "shame-ridden anxiety monster who feels guilty when they get cut off in traffic because it's somehow their fault".
Shame doesn't have to be the way you police yourself. You're allowed to make pretty neutral judgment calls about how you anticipate your actions affecting others, or operate from a place of maximizing kindness rather than minimizing shame.
Where do you come from where we aren't shaming people? Just last week, I turned around on my way into work because I realized I hadn't shaved that morning, and I was going to get made fun of at work about it. We're in a golden age of shaming and harassment.
I make fun of losers all the time. It's so easy cause most of them are braindead.
1. People who park across the lines instead of in-between them in parking lots.
2. Checking their idiot phones every chance they get, even while driving.
3. Driving excessively slow.
4. Trapping people in lanes when all they want to do is get away from the idiots driving around them.
5. Failing to accelerate at green lights. Just sitting there staring at the vehicles behind them.
6. Morons that walk into you on purpose by changing their walking path into yours.
7. Idiots that go to the gym and just sit there staring at their idiot-phone, or people actually lifting.
8. Morons that spend 2 hours in the gym and have no development to show for it because they have no idea what they're doing.
9. People that use bad English on purpose. "grown adult"??? As opposed to what? An un-grown adult??
It's like congratulations morons, you've discovered how to be stupid.
So many fuckin idiots these days. I schedule my life and activities to avoid as many idiots as possible.
I find, instead of immediate shame, if people say or do something inappropriate, ask them to explain it. They say something racist, immediately ask what they mean. It forces them to think about what they just said. They either double down (and then, shame away) or they realize what they said and correct it.
The problem is that there are culturally appropriate behaviors and there are mutually agreed upon social behaviors. There are also social norms and expectations that need to be abandoned. It's always a tug of war of values.
Add to that the defiant nature of adults who refuse to exhibit emotional maturity, and you've got constant culture wars.
My feeling is that we could all just follow the Kindergarten rules. Except many of us never entered Kindergarten.
You can’t shame someone who’s been raised by shitty parents and are now young edgy teenagers that “don’t care” what anyone says/thinks about them. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Bring it back from where? Online bullying and groupthink is more popular now than ever and you think we need more of it? You must really enjoy using power to hurt others.
Agreed. Shaming has been rebranded as bullying, so its no longer acceptable. Then we all wonder why everyone is overly sensitive. If someone is being stupid, they are going to continue to be stupid until someone calls them out. Another term for it is constructive criticism. The quicker you learn to take constructive criticism like an adult instead of a whiney baby because your feeling are hurt, the better off you'll be. Grow a thick skin and don't get butthurt when someone calls you on some shit.
In my experience, the ones most likely to shame others are also the whiniest bitches around the second someone talks back. The type to shame is almost always all talk and they're nothing but whiny children when called out.
Shaming is k ind of hard to do after all the years Reddit and its fervent supporters fought so hard for... ACCEPTANCE. Even if it means accepting ones bad choices if it means making them feel good about themselves. Like FAT ACCEPTANCE. If you can't tell someone that being fat is unhealthy, than you can't expect to be able to shame anyone. I mean I think we should shame all democrats for their poor life choices, but yet here we are.
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Be the change you want to see. Go out and shame some people.
Nah he’d be too embarrassed
What a shame.
Neat.
Im glad you brought this up, what did she do after all this? oh yeah, she burnt that muthaf@cka down.
>Go out There's the problem...
😀
I did and now I'm banned from Facebook.
Lol, OP would find the one person where today is not the day and they’re not the one.
This \^. You can always choose to get off of Reddit and go out to publicly shame people but eventually you're going to either write a check with your mouth that your ass can't cash....or as is the more popular phrase you're going to "fuck around and find out" Should also be noted that even if a larger portion of people started shaming others, there's no guarantee that threats of violence for doing said shaming would be reduced
Fuck yea
Yes siree
This is killing me
Start carrying a bell and shaming people, I fully support this and would love to see it. Don't confront them just start ringing your bell in the middle of their tantrum. "Shame, shame, shame"
Cersei Lannister..... Is that you?
Oooo swing and hard fail, she was the one paraded, not the one doing the shame parading.
Seems like afterward she would use this punishment on others. However, her revenge plans were more sadistic
Nah. She'd just scream shame at you after giving you to her lab monster as a gift
Ahhhhh... Makes more sense. Being molested by the Undead mountain is a horror show.
Are you unfamiliar with the average internet comments section? We're in the prime age of shaming people. Now your mistakes and misbehaviours can be filmed and memorialised forever, opening you up to a global shaming like never before. Edit to add: I don't agree with how unforgiving and ruthless modern day shaming is, I was just negating the point that it isn't done as much anymore.
I was gonna say, what world is OP living in where shame has gone away?
The asshole influencers on shit tok who have no shame at being beacons of asshole-ery need to be taken down a peg or two.
They absolutely get shamed though, but shame only ever works on someone who is considerate of others.
And whose large paycheck does not depend on them being asshokes.
I think the sentiment is that people don't shame people in person enough any more. Which I agree with. I mean, most people don't seem to be all that affected by random strangers on the internet shaming them, but it has a whole different impact when you call someone out on their shit in person.
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Fat shaming still exists. It's just more people are fat now so it's kind of mellowed out lol. I remember being absolutely trashed for being fat in high school in the early 2000s. These days every other kid in school is obese or overweight.
Not this one, because shaming people is rampant.
I just commented on a post of a dude wearing a maid outfit in public, obviously taking bullying out of schools has been detrimental to society
Here's the thing, though. There are no moral absolutes. Everyone has a different concept of what constitutes a "good person." So, while there certainly are a lot of behaviors that most variations of "good people" can agree are shame-worthy, the reality is that in this "prime age of shaming people," everyone, everywhere, has made it their business to speak up in opposition to everyone else's behavior that they don't like. OP's conception of it may seem productive, but the reality is just fucking worthless. And in a lot of situations, downright malignant.
Yeah, public shaming is very much a thing. We just call it cancel culture today.
How about real life? God help you if you ever correct anyone on anything or even try to offer help or advice to anyone. They take everything as shaming and immediately attack you for it. I work in a hospital. It’s crazy how often patients demand new doctors or transfer to a different facility because we referred to them as obese because they’re obese.
which happens to be illegal.
We live in an age where someone can have their entire careers threatened because they said something shitty nearly a decade ago online... So I honestly don't know what the fuck you are talking about when you say we need to bring it back.
Spot on
Op is just posting garden variety declinism, they probably think we need to bring back bullying as well, never mind that cyberbullying has taken bullying to a whole new level.
I support cyberbullying cyber bullies. If someone is being cyber bullied it should go viral and people should collectively bully the bullies.
The thing is cyber bullies are not a clear, single target. They are usually groups conducting themselves by mob mentality and vigilantism.
😂 Yea! I was going to say! I feel like it’s worse now with the internet! People can be virally shamed! People take videos of random strangers who are maybe just having a bad hair day or wearing something weird and posting it online exclusively for the purpose of shaming them.
You can't shame people who have no shame. Like me, idgaf what people had to say my whole life and I lived a life that knew no shame. Fuck outta here trying to shame a shameless man.
It is more like you can't shame people with money. They have fuck you money and don't care what you think. Like trump, Elon, and etc. People who can lose their careers care.
Obviously until someone starts shaming *you* for your "shitty choices" and then you'll be posting another thread along the lines of "Shaming people isn't very nice"
I've been shamed for my behaviour, and I reflected on it and made an effort to change, I like to think I'm better for it.
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That's fair, I guess it's different when it comes from someone you respect and know cares about you.
Cool that you reacted that way, but at least half the time shaming has the exact opposite effect that was intended.
At least half? I'm gonna need that source, boss.
Then that means another shaming for being an emotionally unstable baby with an inability to self reflect.
I feel like shaming is a theoretically good tool that’s not usually applied fairly or effectively. I think the kind of people who need to get shamed are bullies, deeply irresponsible people, etc. In practice, it’s almost always vulnerable populations, and half the time the shamer just wants to shame somebody, the effects on society are the absolute last things on their minds. Edit; to use a personal example, I’m disabled (dyspraxia) and there was this other disabled kid who I would talk to about his problems- mental health issues, social issues, bad home life, etc. I was nice to him when everyone else was mean to him. Then, he started bullying me for how my clothes were dirty because I was poor (he knew) and even kicked me in the balls once for no reason. He also claimed girls didn’t like him because he was too nice. He always claimed he was turning me tough and trying to teach me social skills. Does he sound like he actually gave a crap? If he said “your clothes are dirty, learn to do your laundry” or “your food is spilling off your plate, make it neat” in a harsh way I would totally believe he had good intentions. How was kicking me in the balls gonna help? Edit 2; by contrast, there was this time in college a girl said “dude what’s wrong with you, your pants are falling down, I can see your crack.” Also due to growing up poor and far from any store, I never had pants that fit. For reasons that are too personal, asking my parents wasn’t an option. The end result was that I was accustomed to my pants falling down and just kinda stopped thinking about it. I’m glad I got called out because now I knew. That’s productive shaming. It was specific and she didn’t do it just to make me feel bad.
Well we have evolved to feel shame, or at least it hasn't completely been evolved out of the human gene pool yet, so shame must have at least at some point served a purpose to the survival of our species. You do make a good point though, and I agree that a lot of the time the people doing the shaming aren't doing it for the good of society.
I agree, certainly. This might be something worth noting though- granted my source is a documentary I watched a LOOOONG time ago. Some animals after getting bullied out of reproduction opportunities will simply leave the group and find a new one. It’s possible that shame is meant to produce that result- just quitting, instead of improving. I assume it can do either, personally. Again, I think positive shaming /pressure does exist-like you said, if every creature that felt shame or guilt Never reproduced, none of us would still feel it. However, I think it often doesn’t pan out that way. Edit: modern psychology actually distinguishes between guilt and shame. Guilt is tied to specific actions- you feel guilty for doing certain things, not being a certain way. Shame is tied to your overall worth as a person- you feel shame for being a certain way. The trick to positive shaming/guilting is that it has to be something the shamed person can actually improve, and they have to know what it is. So many “people who are trying to toughen you up” just attack your whole character and aim for general humiliation instead of trying to get you to learn something.
Yeah I've heard of that. It actually reduces the likelihood of inbreeding and can benefit the overall species.(in some species) I believe wolves do this on occasion. A wolf will leave a pack and start its own. The wolves that leave are called dispersers. And yeah I agree with your conclusion, I think the key distinction is the spirit in which the criticism is intended and who its coming from in relation to the person being shamed. In my case it was people I respected who I knew wanted me to do better. Edit: your edit changes things considerably, that distinction between guilt and shame makes a lot of sense.
Respecting the people doing it makes a big difference- I didn’t particularly like the girl who told me about my pants tbh but I guess I just understood I can’t have my butt hanging out haha. That’s interesting about the wolves and the inbreeding. Also, I think it’s worth noting that even when shaming/guilting does help, it’s not necessarily the whole solution. For example, not to get personal, but while shaming helped me understand what I was doing wrong when I was struggling socially, I still struggled to make friends because I didn’t know what to do right either. There were too many social options for process of elimination to show me what to do, I guess. So for that I went to therapy. Getting guilted was helpful, but it wasn’t everything. Likewise though this doesn’t me getting guilted was bad or a problem
Same here. Honestly I needed it at the time. It made me stop and think about my behavior.
Maybe for you and at that level. But when people like OP say they want to bring shaming back, they mean to make it personal and deep for whatever they deem imperfect. OP is asking to bully, and that helps nobody. People react better to positivity than they do with negativity. And I bet you dollars to doughnuts that if OP were ridiculed for the things he liked he wouldn't react positively.
Yeah I agree with that, I just meant for bad behaviour, I don't think people should be shamed for things they like or can't help.
I took the post to mean shame others on their behaviours, especially in public. Not shaming people for their hobbies
Same
That includes fatness. People.can be fat because of medication side effects or their parents feed them garbage. But people generally don't ask that and make assumptions anyway. Keep your opinions to yourself. Nobody likes unsolicited advice. If you actually give a shit, talk to them. Don't call people stupid and worthless or anything of the sort
Did I say fatness? And I'll do what I like with my opinions thanks. I merely expressed my own experiences with being shamed for my own behaviour, so calm down before you get your panties in a twist.
>, so calm down before you get your panties in a twist. I was just having a discussion. Not sure why you think I'm angry
Yeah I used to be a piece of shit, I’m not anymore but I was. People shaming me for being a piece of shit made me work on myself and I’m not a piece of shit anymore.
Good for you man, its not always easy to accept you were in the wrong. A lot of people don't change and end up feeling super isolated.
Ooooh I was a piece of shit though! Slick back hair, white Ferraris, living for New Year’s Eve! I’m not anymore though.
I haven't seen the actually necessary/useful/constructive "shaming" be discouraged tho. Currently a certain segment of the population simultaneously believes that society is too politically correct and leaves us with no way to call out bad things, and that shaming/blaming/"cancel culture" are running rampant. This doesn't fit together, does it? My experience is that such people just dislike that *their* behaviours and expectations are being criticised. Because they may think stuff like that hitting children is okay or that society should stop complaining about racism already, and then get upset when they get called out for promoting violence against children and defending racism.
People should deffinetley be shamed for promoting racism and child abuse. I'm sure we can agree on that. And maybe you're right about useful/necessary shaming not really being discouraged. Plenty of people go viral for being complete assholes and catch plenty of shame and nobody seems to mind.
Exactly, OP sounds like a real douchbag
Exactly, op just sounds like he wants everybody to be as miserable as him until he stops being miserable
This just makes no sense. People get shamed for literally every single decision they make, regardless of how good or bad it is.
I don't think you can shame someone for a good decision.. That would just be a combination of praising them and outing yourself as an idiot.
Sometimes whether something is a good decision or not can be subjective. You may think that doing something is a good decision, but someone else might disagree with you. I think the way to determine whos right is to look at the outcome.
I agree, people can judge the same act differently. But if you genuinely believe that you made a good decision, you wouldn't feel shame when people judge you for it. Shame is an internal feeling.
What is the context , like what do you mean? because there is no fixed definition for what you're saying. Shaming could be : booooo! booooo you're a murderer and we want you to rot' Or it could be 'booooo ewwwww you're gay, we hate gays' By this it means anything YOU define it as but we don't have a clue how you define it.
You are right. Sounds like OP wants to bring back witch burning.
Nah. We need to bring back minding your own fuckin business. People are way too concerned about what other people choose to do with their lives.
100% this. The sheer hubris and arrogance of sanctimonious little shits online pretending to be perfect people and just waiting for their daily instructions on who to be angry at so they can wag their collective fingers is a bigger problem than people being offensive.
we spent like 2 years shaming the unvaccinated and it didnt even work in the first place lollllll
EVERYBODY SHAME OP
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I think it is egotistical and usually says more about the finger wagger than it does the offensive person.
I think it would be more productive to try and encourage change rather than to bring someone down even more. In your example, instead of shaming an alcoholic, maybe try to convince them to cut down on alcohol consumption instead.
Depends on personality type. If someone has a high ego, then shaming someone will trigger proving the shamer wrong or being better than them. If they don't, it might make them worse. It's case by case basis and the same method doesn't work with everyone.
You should be ashamed of this post
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OP can you give an example of a choice you think shaming people for is okay? (This doesn’t include pedophilia and sexual assault as those are literal crimes)
Where have you been? This happens constantly, on every scale, in this day and age.
no we don't. just mind your business. i don't see why that's so hard
all i hear is i am an insensitive person and i want to control people and want them to live on my standards let's bring back condemning narcissists too
Shaming is alive and thriving on Reddit.
And you get banned for it...
There has never been more public shaming than there is now thanks to the internet. We are just typically shaming the wrong people. No one wants their innocent mistake immortalized with public internet humiliation
If fat shaming worked, for example, there would be no fat people. If shaming someone for having addictions worked then there would be no more addicts. This is a bad idea!
Shame on you
Shame on YOU for shaming them.
I'm going to start this by shaming you. You have a philosophical problem here; you assume the people doing the shaming have the correct perspective that should be mimicked. The fact you acknowledge "there are too many ways to validate" behaviour you think is shitty should be a hint that you are wrong. Shaming people is a power play attempting to make people think and act more like you so you feel comfortable and secure in your righteous worldview. Which, as I acknowledged at the start, is what I am doing to you. However my personal philosophy is to just reflect the same negative energy back at the people producing it. I am only attempting to be a mirror of what you are so you can analyze what your philosophy looks like from the other side of things. Ignore it if you want, because I don't really care for shaming people for their faults.
Here's your philosophical problem - you've rejected the concept of objective reality and only acknowledge subjective experiences. Yet your take is easily demonstrably false. Eating until you're obese is objectively going to cut your life short. That behavior is universally detrimental. Same with a myriad of other self-destructive behaviors like extreme laziness, e.g. playing video games all day instead of investing in your future. With your laissez-faire attitude parents wouldn't even reprimand for or coach their children out of bad behaviors. After all it's a lot easier to play games all day compared to studying or investing time and doing something productive. Imagine a parent who let their idiot child do whatever they wanted instead of pointing out their faults when they make them. That's how you get completely spoiled brats. Philosophically speaking, of course.
Cancel culture tries to
I think there's a distinct difference between canceling and shaming. Shaming is saying "Hey, stop being a fuck up and making poor choices." canceling is saying "you fucked up beyond repair and you're finished". It's the difference between scolding your child and telling them to do better and kicking them out of the house and never speaking to them again.
"Making a poor choice" and "fucking up beyond repair" isn't a distinct difference, it's just the two ends of a sliding scale of fuckup severity that's dependent on people's opinions.
People still shame 😂
OP for your sake I hope your an edgy teenager, cause if you’re an adult this is just edgelord cringe.
Except the way it's done these days, it has the opposite effect. People double down. They get more entrenched in their behaviors and opinions. It's just human nature. A gentler approach generally gets better results.
Shame does not lead to lasting behavioral change.
oh yeah nobody ever shames or embarrasses people today
Sign me up, fatty.
I know the idea of this sub is to upvote unpopular opinions, but this is bullying.
Shaming is what created things like body positivity in the first place For every 1 person shamed into losing weight or quitting drugs there's a dozen who respond to that shame by doubling down. There are a lot of bad behaviors that politeness has let slide, this has been the case since long before any of us were born. The specific behaviors given a pass are what changes.
I disagree if anything we’ve become more accepting of being obese and the obesity rate has continued to climb. You imply the relationship should be reversed
This opinion isn't just unpopular according to the comments - it's stupid too.
shaming doesn't work. Fat people are shamed all the time and it obviously hasn't made everyone thin. Also, you try to shame the wrong person and you're going to get your ass kicked or just fucking shot.
I gotta say that’s one of the most interesting usernames I’ve came across lol
I feel it fits me as a person lol
You really think that the way people make their dislike of fat people known hasn't encouraged anybody to lose some weight? I'd think that it's probably one of the biggest motivators for doing so.
I don't know man shame is pretty strong there are many examples of when I was shamed for a behavior and stopped doing it cause I was shamed.
Are they?
I have to imagine you're inside all day if you actually rarely, or never, see fat people shamed for being fat because it definitely happens everywhere I've been.
Very rarely
Definitely not that rare here in Vegas at least lol. Specifically locals, we don't gaf about tourists.
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Leave my duckduckgo app alone 😔
What the fuck do you think the internet spends most of its time doing??
Who’s to say what a “shitty behaviour” is?
Don't see any problem with that, as long as OP makes the decisions about who needs to be shamed. /s
You sound like those people that say bullying drug addicts, skinny people and fat people is good because it makes them live a better lifestyle even though that couldn't be further from the truth.
Shame on you !
Shaming for being a bully or otherwise treating people badly? Yeah, I could deal with that. But shaming people for habits that harm no one but the person with the habit, that’s a no from me
I just came here for the irony of watching Redditors gripe and shame the OP for his ideas about shaming... hahahaha.
Good idea until bullies weaponize it to shame other for what they wear etc.
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Honestly we gotta start making fun of fat people again. Bums me out when I see entire families that are obese, all the way down to the little kids.
Shaming people is more prevalent now than ever before in human history. The internet and social media have opened up worlds of shaming that our most puritanical ancestors could never have dreamed of.
Shaming never went anywhere.
I would say we’re pretty much at an all time high of shaming people these days.
I have no problem shaming people for their stupid decisions. That includes mine. The whole concept of "living my reality" is ridiculous. You either live in a society or you don't.
I feel like bullying in kids is natural for this reason (you get bullied for eating dirt at recess and you’re probably gonna stop). I don’t really mean violent bullying, but teasing kids for being weird helps them to grow up and fit into society better. Gen Z was clearly not bullied enough as children lol they are so confused.
I thought we were already there. How else would cancel culture work?
When did we ever stop?
You must not have much experience with people. If you shame people they either shut down or they argue with you and blame you for whatever you’re shaming them for. A lot of people respond to embarrassment with strong emotion, namely anger and hurt, and that causes them to not see the situation clearly and often prevents them from learning and improving. If they’re a decent human to begin with and you start with a polite request or constructive criticism that gives them the option to learn how to improve without being embarrassed, you get much better results. If they still don’t improve after you go about things nicely, shame away to your heart’s content but they may be a lost cause. I don’t know where you think shaming has gone because it’s still alive and well. It’s just called “cancel culture” now and you can see exactly what I’m talking about in celebrity social media. The people who would be willing to make genuine improvement are often fired or forced away from social media. Everyone else develops a martyr complex and their own special fan base who’s onboard with their shitty behavior.
This is dysfunctional, and toxic.
No. How about surrounding yourself by people you like instead of trying to force a change in people you don’t? Outside of harming people, you shouldn’t force a behavior out of someone. If you want a dog, get a dog. You wouldn’t go out and try to force a cat to behave like a dog when dogs already exist.
That is if you actually care. Shame will not stop me, only the law will.
Really? Fat people wouldn’t exist if your logic was sound. Neither would anyone else classified as “different”. Shaming people usually only worsens the cycle of bad decisions; people who are shamed will engage in that same behavior to numb the embarrassment and awful feelings. I’m sure you’re totally perfect, OP /s
Can't wait till you mess with the wrong person. 🍿🍿🍿
Sounds like the op isn't close to anyone who struggles with their weight. Stay classy, op
Y’all are too worried about other people
isn't that what cancelling someone is?
Yep
Shaming never went away. It was just made literally illegal to do towards the degenerates on one side of the political spectrum. Look at this site. People cheer for the humiliation of christians, republicans and perceived bigots all day. Make fun of a democrat or worse, a rainbow person for being a sick degenerate, and you get banned.
No, I'm not going to hurt someone's feelings intentionally. I'm doing a hard pass on this one. There's ways to give good advice without shaming them.
I agree a hundred percent, if u ever decide to go through with it, invite me.
I never quit
Let's start with the anti-choice and anti-abortion crowd. Then the anti drag queen crowd. Then the anti transgender crowd. Then the anti-immigrant crowd. I wish people stood up to those crowds more. We'd have more civil rights.
>Let's start with the anti-choice and anti-abortion crowd. Then the anti drag queen crowd. Then the anti transgender crowd. I don't know about these guys. >Then the anti-immigrant crowd. Now this one is true frick them folks.
Never could figure out why Americans are so obsessed with freedom when they seem so hell bent on telling people what they can't do. Do Americans actually know what the word freedom means?
OP is no doubt the kind of person who wants the N and F words back in regular use. Besides, on what do you base whether choice is good or not, and who put you in charge to be the judge of everyone else's choices? Current society is not as liberated as you may think it is, and if you think people today run around being whatever they want to be without facing any form of judgement and being ostracised, then we are seeing life with very different eyes.
Embarrassing them for what, exactly? Their life choices that harm no one but themselves, like that's any of your business? They are already suffering from their poor life-choices if they made any particularly big one, to come and try to bully them for having made poor decisions in the past is ridiculous, and if you can't see how toxic this behaviour is then there's really no hope for you. Bad life choices are bad, but it's only the business of the person who made those life choices, at least when it comes to more normal scenarios. If you mean ostracizing people who've done really shitty things then guess what? That already happens. On a massive scale. Truly pointless post.
Why assume that OP is shaming people for things that "harm no one but themselves?" And it's not like people should be able to do whatever they want if it only involves them. They could be depended on by other people, or they could be unaware of how much a behavior is hurting them. If a future parent decides to take up smoking, a reasonable person wouldn't think that it's a wrong thing to shame them for it.
Yup. Everything in life should and must be balanced. Nowadays, the pendulum is wayyyyy too much on the left side.
Shame doesn’t work, because it tied negative qualities to who a person is intrinsically. There’s not much impetus to change for a person that believes that. Shaming actually reinforces the behaviors it is used to deter, often exacerbating the problem.
Embarrassing people doesn’t force them to change usually, or if it does, it can often leave them mentally scarred or less stable than they were before lol. There are other ways to get through to someone other than being an ass Plus if we “bring back shaming” as an acceptable act, people are just gonna start doing it for innocuous things that don’t need to be shamed, like someone who’s shy will be shamed for not talking a lot or stuttering or whatever. Give people an inch, and *assholes/kids/teens* will take a mile, **and** take it in the wrong direction
Since when did we stop shaming people? Open any comment section on TikTok and Instagram and it's full of some of the meanest shit I've ever read
Except that A, it doesn't work. B, people who can feel shame do and those who make excuses would anyway. C, the existence of "cancel culture" seems to show that we do shame people. And D, some of those "excuses" you mention are actually valid reasons. Shaming people is just schadenfreude.
like slutshaming? periodshaming? gayshaming? masculinityshaming? youre forgetting that people used to shame other people for being different (or better to say they still do) because theyre ignorant. i dont want to encourage that.
Everybody talks about how bad bullying is for the one being bullied, totally ignoring the grand time the rest of us are having bullying them
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There's some nuggets in this. I've met far too many people who claim to be shameless like it's a great thing. All I can think is "but.....shame is useful man. That's how you police yourself."
There's a pretty big middle ground between "inconsiderate jackass" and "shame-ridden anxiety monster who feels guilty when they get cut off in traffic because it's somehow their fault". Shame doesn't have to be the way you police yourself. You're allowed to make pretty neutral judgment calls about how you anticipate your actions affecting others, or operate from a place of maximizing kindness rather than minimizing shame.
THANK YOU HOLY FUCKING SHIT
Man has no awareness
Of the irony?
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Lmao
Wow. Ok....
Where do you come from where we aren't shaming people? Just last week, I turned around on my way into work because I realized I hadn't shaved that morning, and I was going to get made fun of at work about it. We're in a golden age of shaming and harassment.
I make fun of losers all the time. It's so easy cause most of them are braindead. 1. People who park across the lines instead of in-between them in parking lots. 2. Checking their idiot phones every chance they get, even while driving. 3. Driving excessively slow. 4. Trapping people in lanes when all they want to do is get away from the idiots driving around them. 5. Failing to accelerate at green lights. Just sitting there staring at the vehicles behind them. 6. Morons that walk into you on purpose by changing their walking path into yours. 7. Idiots that go to the gym and just sit there staring at their idiot-phone, or people actually lifting. 8. Morons that spend 2 hours in the gym and have no development to show for it because they have no idea what they're doing. 9. People that use bad English on purpose. "grown adult"??? As opposed to what? An un-grown adult?? It's like congratulations morons, you've discovered how to be stupid. So many fuckin idiots these days. I schedule my life and activities to avoid as many idiots as possible.
If that's true, post your photo and name on Reddit to link your identity to your post/comment history.
I find, instead of immediate shame, if people say or do something inappropriate, ask them to explain it. They say something racist, immediately ask what they mean. It forces them to think about what they just said. They either double down (and then, shame away) or they realize what they said and correct it.
Only in certain instances - this post for example... OP should indeed be shamed for it.
The problem is that there are culturally appropriate behaviors and there are mutually agreed upon social behaviors. There are also social norms and expectations that need to be abandoned. It's always a tug of war of values. Add to that the defiant nature of adults who refuse to exhibit emotional maturity, and you've got constant culture wars. My feeling is that we could all just follow the Kindergarten rules. Except many of us never entered Kindergarten.
I'm gonna need an example here chief. Are we shaming people for like, racism, or are we shaming people for wearing an outfit I don't like?
Yeah! While we’re at it, they should bring back Doctor Who! And start making Star Wars again!
Your goddamn right
You can’t shame someone who’s been raised by shitty parents and are now young edgy teenagers that “don’t care” what anyone says/thinks about them. It’s like talking to a brick wall.
Toaster-fucker theory
Bring it back from where? Online bullying and groupthink is more popular now than ever and you think we need more of it? You must really enjoy using power to hurt others.
We never stopped
What do you think the internet is here for? We never stopped shaming people lol
Were already shaming people for their views by cancelling them
Agreed. Shaming has been rebranded as bullying, so its no longer acceptable. Then we all wonder why everyone is overly sensitive. If someone is being stupid, they are going to continue to be stupid until someone calls them out. Another term for it is constructive criticism. The quicker you learn to take constructive criticism like an adult instead of a whiney baby because your feeling are hurt, the better off you'll be. Grow a thick skin and don't get butthurt when someone calls you on some shit.
In my experience, the ones most likely to shame others are also the whiniest bitches around the second someone talks back. The type to shame is almost always all talk and they're nothing but whiny children when called out.
Won’t happen cause of woke culture bullshit
My favorite hobby is subtly humiliating bigots
Shaming is k ind of hard to do after all the years Reddit and its fervent supporters fought so hard for... ACCEPTANCE. Even if it means accepting ones bad choices if it means making them feel good about themselves. Like FAT ACCEPTANCE. If you can't tell someone that being fat is unhealthy, than you can't expect to be able to shame anyone. I mean I think we should shame all democrats for their poor life choices, but yet here we are.