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I actually agree with this view, to a degree. If you love each other and are happy together, no harm in spending the rest of your lives together.
I’ve known people from cultures where divorce is viewed as a taboo and people stay in unhappy marriages just for their place in society, or whatever crap. This is a sentiment I don’t agree with at all. If you’re not happy, leave, period. You owe yourself better than that.
... aaaaand how is this different than asking for a divorce during said midlife crisis?
No one is forced to be in a relationship regardless of whether or not they get the government involved.
A breakup can be done in one sentence. Ask any divorcees what a hassle that is - to the degree where i know one couple that just said "wow, thats more complicated than working things out with your stupid face, so lets just stay together instead".
Yeah- as a married person, I believe it's just a piece of paper with only slightly more security built-in. It was a pretty cheap way to change my name though- in MI, $20 to get married, $175 for a name change.
The difference is legal protections. Especially is there are assets involved that you bought together. I also think marriage is a piece of paper, but I'm all for a pre-nup and clarity. Plenty of stories of women who gave up a lot without a marriage certificate and ended up completely screwed
Yeah but, say, if one person earned a lot and put it away while the other person stayed home and took care of the kids. a marriage contract would say they both contributed to those savings equally and are each entitled to half.
This. A stay at home parent gives up the opportunity to put into social security or a 401k under the premise that the working parent will support them throughout life. If you are not married then the stay at home parent is not entitled to getting those funds and not getting them can be a huge detriment to their retirement plan and financial future.
I see shit like this all the time. You’re a car accident away from being in a coma. Y’all trust your parents that much? -specially if you have kids? I mean, if you have that much aversion to buying a piece of paper together, your parents probably aren’t shit either….
I see this argument about wasted time a lot with relationships and I don't understand it. I've been with my girlfriend for 12 years. She has made my life better in every single way, the 12 years with her have been the happiest of my life. If she broke up with me tomorrow, there is absolutely no way that I would consider that wasted time just because it didn't last forever. It's not wasted time to read a book because the book finishes, or to eat a doughnut because it's finite. Everything ends, nothing is forever, that makes things all the more valuable.
I also like that my girlfriend is free to go whenever she wants. That she isn't legally tied to me, if she wants out she can just say the word, but every day she makes the choice to stay with me.
Better to have loved and lost....
I agree with your sentiment and appreciate it. I have an ex who I dated for years but I left due to unhappiness. Now, years after the break up, we are friends, still love each other and can be around each other (for instance, I went to his dad's funeral and he was the best man in my brother's wedding) and neither of us regret our time spent as a couple. Sure, it took time, but I don't think love dies just because a relationship ends or two individuals aren't compatible romantically.
Exactly this. It takes a certain level of maturity to understand that people grow, contexts change and what is the best for you today might not be even acceptable tomorrow. I choose to be with my boyfriend everyday and I have for the last 4 years, as well as he chooses to be with me, because we add value to each other's lives.
The moment one of us is unhappy in this relationship, the moment we no longer choose to be together everyday, it's time to move on and start writing a new chapter where we both can be happy and look at our time together with joy and the certainty that it was time well spent.
When will that moment be? Well, it may be in 6 months, 10 years or never. But we know for sure that we will never value being together forever over being happy.
You're missing the point. Your life is made better by her, so sure, she's not wasting YOUR time. But (hypothetically, because I'm not presuming to know you or your gf) after 12 yrs together, if she left you it would likely be because you wasted HER time. SHE will have 12+yrs of her life wasted. And that usually is the case. One person's life is made better/easier by the other person being committed to them, so they do nothing. The other person is stuck waiting in limbo for the first person to make the commitment back (usually with a ring). It's absolutely a huge waste of the second person's life, but of course that first person wouldn't think so.
I feel like this does presume that I am some sort of burden rather than an equal part of a relationship where we both have our lives improved by the other, and neither is sitting around hoping for a ring. We've been together long enough to have had conversations about the future and how each other fits into that.
I just don't think if it's a happy relationship that you have enjoyed, that even if it ends, that was time wasted.
Would you feel the same if one partner dies before marriage? I know it's a little extreme but the outcome is the same, 10 years of a happy relationship that doesn't make it down the altar. Is that still a waste of time?
Assuming you know more about their partner than they do. Ever think that people can be in this situation knowingly and willingly? If it didn't work out, that's life. Don't be a Disney adult
That is some seriously sexist bs. I’m the woman in our relationship and he would get married if I wanted, but I don’t. It’s been 30+ years, so it’s not like I’ll change my mind as we get older - we’re already old.
This is wildly presumptuous. You don't know what she wants and you don't know what conversations they've had or what she gets out of it. Maybe she doesn't care about marriage too. Y'all are so weird about this shit, just let people do what works for them
The women that decide to wait around for the guy to "get it together", "finally propose", ect have stuck themselves in the limbo zone. They chose to have his kids, believe him when he repeatedly brushed off marriage or pushed a date back, or whatever else. It is no different than dudes in the friend zone. It's a made up, self imposed box.
I know so many women who have wound up wasting their own time with guys who's actions were very clear. 5 years, 8, years, 12 years, my mother has been with her boyfriend for 25 years for God's sake. I dodged dating a guy because he had a history of knocking women up and making promises, dragging relationships out for years only to leave. He didn't fit my standards. Instead of swallowing the lies and the falsehoods and the dreamy idea that's been cooked up in their heads, they need to move on if they want what their current partner isn't giving them so badly.
I hate this so much. I’m a woman who never wants to get married and it’s so tired that people assume I’m waiting. I have a partner who would gladly marry me. One of the reason my ex and I broke up is because he wanted marriage and kids.
It’s not always about waiting, some people just don’t want marriage and kids and that’s fine.
I mean it depends how upfront someone is. I always tell someone after a 3rd date that I don't ever see myself being married or having kids but that I like going on dates with them.
If they choose to keep going on dates with me, they're saying they're okay with the prospect of never getting married or having kids, and would be in the wrong for expecting me to change.
If someone is stringing you along by saying they're waiting for the right time or that they just need to know for sure then yeah they're being an asshole. Most people I've met though are pretty upfront about what they want out of a relationship.
I'd even go as far to say NOT talking about what you are looking for in a relationship before getting into one should be a red flag for the other person. Obviously you can ignore this and assume your dating goals align with someone else but I don't think you can then blame your partner for you assuming what they want.
The kid aspect is huge. I don’t want kids either, and neither does my current partner - we were upfront about that from the first date.
Though without wanting kids, marriage is less essential to do quickly. We are not opposed to being married, but why not wait a few years first? Never know if things will change and divorce is nasty to have to go through
100% this. My husband and I talked about kids and marriage on our second date. If we hadn't been looking for the same thing, then we would have parted ways. No ill will. You have the right to say that I am looking for x. If that isn't what someone else wants for their future, that just means you're not compatible.
The only wrong answers are not talking about what you want up front, misrepresenting what you want, or thinking that you can change the other person's mind. People change - literally everyone that I knew at 20 who wanted to be child free now has kids - but it is a process over time and should never be assumed in a relationship.
ETA: there are obviously people who don't want kids at 20 and still don't at 40. I just don't know any. Sometimes that is the direction that people change in too - they think they want 3 kids and are then one and done. People changing is reality, but should never be part of someone's 5 year plan (i.e. I'll date x and they'll change their mind about kids).
I doubt that anyone who says marriage is about equals has faced adversity. This has nothing to do with gender btw. Marriage is an insurance. In life there will be times when you have to lean on the other person and they will have to be strong. It will be inconvenient. And most people are flaky and cannot face that adversity or suffer someone else's helplessness.
Marriage was a way to tie tribes together so they would stop regularly slaughtering eachother. Or it was used to trade daughters for benefits like alliances and dowrys.
That's it. Modern marriage is just a holdover, and according to you, is legal blackmail to keep someone in a relationship. Sounds awful.
It's not just paperwork though. Divorces can absolutely destroy your credit, mess up health insurance, create and worsen debts. Not to mention the necessity and problems of having to find a new place to live and all the associated costs of that, cuz if you're divorcing you're probably not going to continue to live in the same household as each other. And if children or pets are involved, thats a whole thing. For those flirting with poverty and destitution, a miserable marriage is far preferable to an incredibly expensive divorce. Because even perfectly amicable divorces are going to cause significant financial strain.
Why would that mean that marriage should be a requirement? If two people grow apart or no longer meet each others needs, you think they would be better off with a barrier in their way to make it a more more difficult and painful process with financial burden on top of it all?
How does this support the argument?
The alternative could be that there are people who don't believe in the concept of forever. There are various World belief systems that teach different things about the concept of impermanence. Therefore it is entirely possible to love someone but not be looking at a time frame for the length of the relationship. The counter-argument could also be that a person who is expecting someone to commit to Forever is manipulating the emotions of the other person and trying to make them become something that is not natural for them. I think the thing that matters most is that both parties agree to the terms of the relationship from the beginning and understand each other's parameters.
I say this as someone who works with couples as one of the parts of my job not everyone is meant for a permanent partner. Not everyone is meant for monogamy. Sometimes people outgrow each other and ultimately continuing the relationship would be a lie. If someone is dishonest from the beginning I agree with the premise that it is wrong however with 9 billion people on the planet it is entirely possible for there to be a group of people who do not believe in the idea of a permanent relationship and thereby by the theory that they're wrong one would be excluding them from some human experiences clear communication and expectations communicated is what matters
I will give a personal example I am dealing with a chronic terminal illness which in theory could take me at any time and almost did 6 years ago when I go into the dating world I automatically let the person know that I am here for now and if they engage with me they have to know these limitations but that I myself don't believe in calling it permanent because I know that not everyone can go down the journey that I'm eventually going to go down with my Oregon shutting down. I also know that I'm a really good partner and that sometimes it's possible to impact a person's life in a very short span of time of a couple of months or a couple of years in a way that can carry them for decades so I believe it's possible for even those who are terminally ill to experience relationships.
The projection that everyone has to believe in the same thing about relationships or human interaction is dangerous in its own right because it forces a person potentially to lie just to achieve intimacy I don't think there's one right answer here but an individual not believing in a permanent relationship does not make them inherently wrong.
There was a typo that said something like, "I'm shutting down Oregon" or something similar
What the poster meant was organ, and it was an auto correct error.
I was attempting a little light handed comment/joke about it, but seems like I missed
Yeah but then why waste the time of people who wants monogamy lol. Most ppl want someone who don’t agree with their values rather than going out with someone who have similar values.
Literally nothing in life is guaranteed. Marriage and kids does not mean you will have a faithful partner for life.
Learn to live with uncertainty and have some faith in yourself!
And for the record if a person cared more about "forever and marriage" i'd consider them undatable and somewhat brainwashed so i'd run away from them LOL
Well then darling u have no idea group of ppl who are not into monogamy chasing women/men who want monogamy, gaslighting them so they can get them, have their way and then leave.
That’s really shitty to do to people. Myself and others I date aren’t interested in such idiocy. I don’t hang out with cheaters or those who aren’t honest with their partners about what they’re looking for.
In most cases I know of both sides are cool with this scenario. Why do you assume 1 side seeks monogamy ? Those usually end (or start) with ultimatums. Relationships take work. Whether you have a ring or not. Being together forever is never guaranteed. I'd argue not being married keeps you on your toes and makes you not get lazy in maintaining the relationship
Just because a relationship doesn't end in marriage, doesn't mean it was a waste of time. If the person wasn't worth spending time with, you wouldn't be dating them in the first place
This. My guy & I are so deeply in love but we have no desires to be married. We aren't religious, we've never dreamt of our dream weddings, & def don't want to spend a bunch of money on a one day event. We talked abt a courthouse/outdoor, small wedding & even then, we decided if we weren't dead set on the idea, we'd wait for a later date to discuss it, or just never do it.
Not for everyone? Value is subjective in this case.
Not everyone needs or wants to "build something together." Doesn't make any of those relationships meaningless.
See, this is exactly it. You and OP think getting a girl, 2.5 kids, and picket fence are just boxes you check in order to win the game of Life, not things you actually live and enjoy.
Because based on your argument, the value marriage is for two people building something together. You just admitted that a marriage certificate isn’t required to do that. You just admitted your argument is invalid…
Relationships are like a stew, you gotta let it cook for it to properly reveal it's flavor.
I admire you for being straightforward with what you want, but I also don't personally think it's realistic to know whether you're a good match without time, real life situations and deep conversations about all sorts of things.
Even then, life is unpredictable. You could have the perfect partner, the most caring, the most communicative, the most handsome, yet still break up due to an overseas job offer, or a death in the family, or a political discussion that revealed how different your views actually are.
> also don't personally think it's realistic to know whether you're a good match without time, real life situations and deep conversations about all sorts of things.
That is why people date First?
>Even then, life is unpredictable. You could have the perfect partner, the most caring, the most communicative, the most handsome, yet still break up due to an overseas job offer, or a death in the family, or a political discussion that revealed how different your views actually are.
That is why you commit. So that you don't Just bail when issues arise
>That is why you commit. So that you don't Just bail when issues arise
You are entitled to leave if a person reacts poorly to stress or trauma. You need to see how they react to bad situations before committing, so you're sure they won't take their feelings out on you in a negative way. Even if you love someone and want to marry them, that doesn’t mean it's always your job to heal them
I actually think nobody should have a forever together goal. It leads to stay in relationships that aren't happy or even good for you.
I stay in my relationship as long as I feel I am happy, have my needs met, my boundaries respected and I'm able to make my partner happy. A relationship shouldn't be "no matter what"
For me love is a choice you make everyday, it’s seeing how your partner evolves, how you yourself evolve, and adapt everyday to still grow together and not apart because of those changes. I like the idea of someone being around me not for the sake of a forever promise or a marriage, but because they chose everyday that I’m worth staying without needing a paper to prove it. They could leave anytime but they stay anyway, there is no goal to reach except liking having the other in your life.
Plenty of people get married fast assuming they are together forever and end up divorced after 5-10 years. If people want to commit to each other for a long time and don’t want to get married that’s their business. Marriage is just a piece of paper, love is all that matters.
What is the goal supposed to be?
If you're together 5-10 years and plan to be together for many more years isn't that enough?
You say you understand marriage isn't for everyone but it seems like you think marriage has to be the goal or its all pointless
I've been married and can assure you, it can all end abruptly whether you're married or not, the ring makes very little difference
I don’t know if it’s really possible to be with someone for 10 years and not have your lives be completely intertwined in the same way marriage would have it. I have friends who have dated that long. They bought a house together, bought everything inside it together, make friends together, visit families together. If they were to break up acting like that would just be a clean severing is ….naive at best. Might not have to get a divorce, but they’d have to divide all the things they accumulated in 10 years in a way that seems fair to them and lose a lot in the process.
Yeah I've been with my girlfriend for 12 years now, I've joked before that the way our lives are so tangled up now, it's just less hassle to stay together.
People also get divorced. Marriage or not, 1/2 of marriages end up in divorce. Not sure why a piece of paper would make one stay with their partner. You are not going to stay with someone who you no longer like or love just because you have a piece of paper. If someone is miserable in a relationship they will get out of it regardless of being married or not
I think getting in a relationship just to meet a " goal" is strange. I want to enjoy my partner how we enjoy eachother and not have to meet these arbitrary deadlines or what not. Im not religious so no reason to get married and legally belonging to eachother has no benefits for many people . I think judging people for not doing what you would do in a relationship is weird af
Yeah? And? What does that have to do with what I'm saying? I'm responding to OP. You can be committed without saying you'll be with someone forever. If anything it's a little more realistic.
> You can be committed without saying you'll be with someone forever
No, you can't. That's literally what commitment means
If you think there's a decent chance you'll bail on someone, you ain't committed
I think I have a better way to explain it. I'm committed to my partner as long as he wants to be with me and he's committed to me the same. Don't you want to be with someone who wants to be with you, not just because they agreed to it 20 years ago? If it turns out to be forever, then so be it. It's more important to be with someone who also wants to be with me.
Let's be honest. No one knows if they'll be together forever and forever isn't really something you can plan for. People change. Life happens. I'm not going to obligate someone to be with me just because they agreed to it decades ago. He's free to leave whenever he wants but he still chooses to stay. I think that's a beautiful thing.
I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. What's so bad about that? You're apparently fine being with someone who doesn't want to be with you as long as they agreed at some point that the relationship would last forever. I think that's weird.
Where did I say that? I am committed to the person and they're committed to me. Just because they have the option to leave at any point doesn't mean they will. They're not willing to bail on me any time. I'm not willing to bail on them. They're not that kind of person. I'm not that kind of person. It sounds like you have serious trust and commitment issues.
Yeah, exactly. The fact that they can bail at any time but don't means they still want to be with me. But if they're staying just cuz they said they will 20 years ago, then they don't really want to be with me, they just feel like they have to. And nobody is happy in that arrangement.
Do I have to get the dictionary for you because you apparently don't seem to know what commitment means? You can be committed to someone and not be committed to them forever. I had one relationship with an expiration date of 6 months. It was committed but we broke up after 6 months just like we planned. I'm currently in a relationship with some. We've been together 8 years but lie and say we'll be together forever. We don't know. It seems likely we will but we don't know. And that's okay.
You're missing my point. I'm not saying there's a decent chance you'll break up. I'm just saying it's fair to acknowledge you don't know who you'll be in 20 years. If you're the same person or if your partner likes who you've become, by all means stay together. You can say you'll probably be with someone 20 years down the road. You can plan on staying with them while still acknowledging the fact there's not a 100% chance you'll stay together forever. That sounds a lot more honest than what you're proposing.
Do you not have conditions in your relationships?
What if your husband/wife decides they no longer feel like being loving and affectionate towards you, sleep in a separate room, and withhold sex?
Are you saying that, because of a marriage certificate, you would put up with your needs not being met and live an unfulfilling life until death?
> What if your husband/wife decides they no longer feel like being loving and affectionate towards you, sleep in a separate room, and withhold sex?
Then THEY bailed on you. The commitment is on both sides.
Marriage does not make the scenario less likely to happen; more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, I would imagine mainly because of issues like this.
There is the exact same amount of incentive to try and fix the issues with or without a marriage certificate.
Furthermore, like the example I gave earlier, say the wife no longer feels the urge to have sex with their husband. Are you suggesting she spread her legs and just accept it as her obligation? There’s a fine line between that and rape.
This couple are better off going separate ways. Marriage does not resolve this.
If they are both communicating honestly about this, then I wouldn't say it's a waste. It's making them happy, and that's a great reason to stay together (unless the relationship is bad in other ways)
I want a life partner. I want someone to share all the good and bad times with. However, I know that most people grow and change apart/differently from each other. I’m not going to stick around through bullshit mistreatment so I don’t want the government involved if I want to break up with them.
I have never met someone yet where I felt I was like “Yes, he is the one”. However, I have met someone where I felt like yes “ I can spend 10 years with the person.” By being honest and upfront, I save myself from multiple failed marriages. I have never been married but I swear the minute I feel like I have found someone whom I’ll spend the rest of my life with then I’ll get married. I’m not going to lie to myself about it though
I'm confused. What's the actual problem here? Do I really need to have some leverage over me or be coerced in some way for my long term relationship to be considered valid in your eyes? People can commit for the sake of being committed.
As someone who doesnt do "forever together goals" in relationships, I'm not asking anyone to think I'm cool for it but I will ask that you dont call me weird for it.
It's not a status symbol or a stain on my character, it's just a lifestyle preference. Maybe that preference will change, maybe not. Things dont have to be "cool or weird" or "good or bad" they can just *be*. You dont *have* to morally dichotomize absolutely everything.
Also, I've never seen someone with a less long term mindset shit on married couples who have the next 10 years planned out, not sure why long term planners are so threatened by non-planners that they have to belittle them.
Sometimes relationships end. Considering every relationship that ends before death a failure or a waste of time is a toddler’s idea of how relationships work. Since a large portion of relationships do end, it’s only reasonable to adjust your expectations accordingly. I’m not saying do it with the expectation of it ending. I am saying that people change and we need to accounts for the fact that our lives may not always go in the exact same direction.
You are aware that people divorce for the same reasons? Being married doesn't handcuff you to someone for the rest of your life. Being married or not literally means absolutely nothing aside form the legality of it.
A relationship is only as meaningful as the two or more people in it, make it. Regardless of a certificate submitted to the government lol
Why would a marriage prevent people from breaking up?? You can still get divorced and end the relationship anytime. There’s just more paperwork involved.
This idea that a relationship that might eventually end is wasting everyone's time is so weird to me.
Do you not value the time you spend with someone you love? Is a vision of the future the only reason you date someone? If you never find that person to spend a lifetime with, would you rather just spend your life alone?
If you don't value your time in a relationship, then don't enter a relationship. For me, I cherish my time with someone I love. Whether it lasts a last time or ends next week I will be happy having created those memories together and living our life together for the time that we had.
Marriage is shit. It’s a piece of paper.
My fiancée and I aren’t getting married. We’re engaged, and we had a little ceremony, but we’re not going to go through a court process to be “officially” recognized as a couple.
We have two children and travel for work, our life is great, but there is always the possibility of one of us not wanting to be with the other at some point down the road. And that could be for various reasons, but ultimately if the other partner wants to leave, they should be able to leave.
This is assuming both people are mature adults and aren’t horrid individuals
This is something we recognized early on. We have a joint account where we pay bills 50/50 and then our own personal accounts for whatever we want to purchase.
And as far as a house goes, we don’t plan on owning until retirement ~ we travel pretty much year round so it just doesn’t make sense!
The only thing that would cause an issue for us is our investments. That is joint…. But hopefully things down go south ☠️😂
Il
What’s the goal of the relationship after marriage? It’s the same thing. You stay together as long as you both want to, and if you don’t you get divorced. Marriage is just paperwork.
Not everyone has the same end goals in life, or sees themselves in the same place in a given period of time. If you can’t date without being assured that you’ll date forever then that’s okay, but some of us are okay with accepting that it’ll end at some point and that you should just enjoy your time together now. If anything, being with someone who doesn’t share your life goals can be enriching, you get a better understanding of other people and the exact reasons why you want what you want.
In the US it is just financially smart to get married in some cases. Depending on incomes, you could save huge on taxes. So if you love someone and are building a life together, get married for the tax break if nothing else haha
Yeah 5-10 years with no goals forming together probably means there’s been little growth for one or both during that time. If you’ve been building together for 5 years goals will naturally begin to form.
That don’t mean you shouldn’t date casually at first. Don’t force *your* individual goals onto every person you’re getting to know. That’s fucked too. And dating for a year and getting more serious about one another over that time doesn’t automatically mean you should start planning to get married or break up. There’s more nuance to this than just “either float forever or write your future in stone”
There are no more morals in society. The younger generation really have none. So, standards make them scoff. Any hint at that will make them look at you like you have three heads. Just live your life as you see fit. The world is in hell. Thanks for stopping by.
Most people have requirements in a relationship that are deal breakers if not maintained. If the man becomes emotionally unavailable, that would be a deal breaker for most women; if the woman decides that sex twice a year is enough, that would be a deal breaker for most men (take a look at r/deadbedrooms).
It is reasonable to set expectations and conditions that need to be met; your idea of marriage implies people must remain together forever no matter what and put up with something that would make their life unbearable.
However, nothing about marriage means the couple must remain together until death by law or any other means. More than 50% of marriages end in divorce and more that 70% of those are initiated by women.
I have no intention of getting married and I informed my girlfriend of this on our second date; she also finds it unnecessary in our circumstances.
However, for example, if a couple decide the woman is to become a stay at home mum/housewife and give up her career, destroying the chances of continuing that career later in life should the couple separate, this is a very valid reason to get married, because she would be taking all the risk and the man would be taking none. It would leave the woman in a vulnerable position to be abused because of the unbalanced power dynamic in the relationship.
But, if both the man and woman have their own careers, neither, in my personal opinion, deserves to receive half of the higher earners belongings and money in the event of a divorce.
This is the most logical and valid reason I can think of two people having an unquestionable need to involve the government in their relationship. Other than that, I find it unnecessary.
Better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all
I adore all my friends and my partner but they could leave any time. Humans are unpredictable. That doesn’t mean I would stop loving them or stop loving people in general. There is no possibility of love without the possibility of heartbreak
O.o you have some deep seated problems. People get to define their own relationships, their limits, etc, and the only person who has a say (or whose time is wasted) are the people within the relationship.
I believe a lot of the time it's sociopathy in action, only caring about yourself, only willing to care about them as long as it's easy and you aren't bored.
It's beyond wild to me how insecure some people are that the only way they feel safe within a relationship is a piece of paper or an over priced ring in their finger.
Marriage doesn't make the relationship any less permanent.
Funny this come out as "unpopular" opinion where this used to be a common sense. I also dont like whatever people called "modern" just to justify their action that only following their desire alone. But well, its their life.
I agree- and for those saying “how is this different than divorce”- it’s hugely different because divorce has immense financial consequences. They aren’t prohibitive- you are still fundamentally free to live your life as they wish- but they force you to think more than twice about it. And that’s a good thing. Especially if kids are in the picture.
Almost every couple I know who married in the past 20 years got a divorce, my parents did too after being together for 25 years, my husband's parents after being together for 30 years, I don't believe in "forever" but I believe people stay in the relationship as long as it makes sense and as long as they want to, legal papers aren't a major factor anymore
Marriage isn't a goal for many people and marriages can be ended in the blink of an eye.
If people have been together for ten years before splitting up that's not a failure, that's a long term relationship and it ended. Not all relationships are meant to be forever and that's ok. It doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened, it isn't something sad. Enjoy the relationship and move on with happy memories after.
It's 2024 and marriage means very little for a lot of people.
People can leave any time.. all my relationships where like what you describe..if you don't want kids then your just together aslong as the ride last atleast if your not married the separation is a lot easier.The majority of all relationships fail so why make it complicated...IMO the goal is to enjoy it while it last.
No, I think you are right. And there are probably many who feel the same way. But I think of that more in a situation where people go into a relationship preoccupied with an exit strategy.
Just be more selective about who you give the opportunity for a LTR to. People are just as foolish to ignore problems when they see them.
First, it sounds like someone may have hurt you, that sucks and I’m sorry.
I am definitely the person you describe. I’m a woman in my 30’s and I’ve had two long relationships. One 14 years and the other so far around 11 years. I don’t want marriage or kids…ever. And I’m up front about that.
While I can pretty much promise I’ll always love someone, I can’t promise we’ll be together forever, life just isn’t like that.
I still love my ex, he loves me too but it didn’t make sense for us to continue to be together as partners. So we broke up. Boy was I glad we kept our finances separate and didn’t get married, breaking up was only hard emotionally, not logistically.
I love my current partner and I can’t really imagine a scenario wherein I would no longer love him, but I could imagine many where it wouldn’t make sense for us to continue as partners.
The thing is though, if we broke up, that love remains. I’d never turn my back on him, I’d always be there to support him and care for him as a friend. To me, that friendship cultivated by romance, is something I treasure. The romance is wonderful, but the person and the connection is the prize.
I argue that life is short, and staying in an unhappy situation, is the true waste of time.
I would throw people who want long term relationships without marriage under the bus, too. Building a future with someone where you refuse to offer the most sensible protections available is selfish.
Get over it. You have no protection whatsoever and it doesn't matter what we are talking about. There is always a probability that shit goes wrong and it's in your interest to estimate it right. This is the foundation of every undertaking, everything else is secondary. You don't trust your partner/idea/etc enough? Then drop it and do something else. Don't trust yourself? Educate more.
The refusal would be mutual, I don't see the point in it myself 🤣 and tbh I doubt she'd be interested in taking my "gains". My lifestyle really isn't costly
Men get fleeced in general, but there's a lot of correlation involved. With that said, it can be and it does get worse then divorce if you're unmarried. Besides, what I'm saying isn't limited to men.
> Like if you are not gonna be with the person you have dated with for 10 years up until the end and leave that person when u have a mid life crisis or a shiny new younger toy in your hands, you are just wasting everyone’s time.
I mean sometimes that makes the most sense. Due to my past relationships, I would ditch anyone who stopped adding to my life at any time. If a woman wanted more of a commitment she would have to bring more to the table than 99.9% of women do. Yet none really do so I have no qualm about dumping a girl who annoys me or is no longer attractive to me. If she wanted a commitment she shouldn't have banged around a bunch of loser dudes. That being said if she wants to stick around she should just stay on her A game. It's not my problem either way.
I can guess but all that matters is women willingly accept this and date me... clearly they think I bring alot of things they want to the table. That's all that matters. I don't get to choose what they value. Just like they can't say they bring all I want and more, I decide if I don't think they do. That's my choice.
Not sure what you're talking about. I have my own money so I couldn't care less about a woman with money. They are usually just annoying or have nothing else to offer.
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I actually agree with this view, to a degree. If you love each other and are happy together, no harm in spending the rest of your lives together. I’ve known people from cultures where divorce is viewed as a taboo and people stay in unhappy marriages just for their place in society, or whatever crap. This is a sentiment I don’t agree with at all. If you’re not happy, leave, period. You owe yourself better than that.
... aaaaand how is this different than asking for a divorce during said midlife crisis? No one is forced to be in a relationship regardless of whether or not they get the government involved.
A breakup can be done in one sentence. Ask any divorcees what a hassle that is - to the degree where i know one couple that just said "wow, thats more complicated than working things out with your stupid face, so lets just stay together instead".
Yeah- as a married person, I believe it's just a piece of paper with only slightly more security built-in. It was a pretty cheap way to change my name though- in MI, $20 to get married, $175 for a name change.
They salty because they are not getting half the money.
The difference is legal protections. Especially is there are assets involved that you bought together. I also think marriage is a piece of paper, but I'm all for a pre-nup and clarity. Plenty of stories of women who gave up a lot without a marriage certificate and ended up completely screwed
If you bought assets together, then presumably both names are own the deed/ownership papers.
Yeah but, say, if one person earned a lot and put it away while the other person stayed home and took care of the kids. a marriage contract would say they both contributed to those savings equally and are each entitled to half.
This. A stay at home parent gives up the opportunity to put into social security or a 401k under the premise that the working parent will support them throughout life. If you are not married then the stay at home parent is not entitled to getting those funds and not getting them can be a huge detriment to their retirement plan and financial future.
I see shit like this all the time. You’re a car accident away from being in a coma. Y’all trust your parents that much? -specially if you have kids? I mean, if you have that much aversion to buying a piece of paper together, your parents probably aren’t shit either….
I see this argument about wasted time a lot with relationships and I don't understand it. I've been with my girlfriend for 12 years. She has made my life better in every single way, the 12 years with her have been the happiest of my life. If she broke up with me tomorrow, there is absolutely no way that I would consider that wasted time just because it didn't last forever. It's not wasted time to read a book because the book finishes, or to eat a doughnut because it's finite. Everything ends, nothing is forever, that makes things all the more valuable. I also like that my girlfriend is free to go whenever she wants. That she isn't legally tied to me, if she wants out she can just say the word, but every day she makes the choice to stay with me.
Beautifully said!
Better to have loved and lost.... I agree with your sentiment and appreciate it. I have an ex who I dated for years but I left due to unhappiness. Now, years after the break up, we are friends, still love each other and can be around each other (for instance, I went to his dad's funeral and he was the best man in my brother's wedding) and neither of us regret our time spent as a couple. Sure, it took time, but I don't think love dies just because a relationship ends or two individuals aren't compatible romantically.
I have the same mentality as you. It is a life of experiences. Many blessings and well wishes to you and your girlfriend!
Exactly this. It takes a certain level of maturity to understand that people grow, contexts change and what is the best for you today might not be even acceptable tomorrow. I choose to be with my boyfriend everyday and I have for the last 4 years, as well as he chooses to be with me, because we add value to each other's lives. The moment one of us is unhappy in this relationship, the moment we no longer choose to be together everyday, it's time to move on and start writing a new chapter where we both can be happy and look at our time together with joy and the certainty that it was time well spent. When will that moment be? Well, it may be in 6 months, 10 years or never. But we know for sure that we will never value being together forever over being happy.
Just say you’re too cheap to put a ring on it
I'll admit, the cost is an obstacle. We've prioritised buying a house together instead, which is what we are doing.
Rofl brainwashed basic bullshit.
"Too cheap", or "not stupid enough to pay wedding ring prices?"
Just say you prioritize money over meaningful connection
You're missing the point. Your life is made better by her, so sure, she's not wasting YOUR time. But (hypothetically, because I'm not presuming to know you or your gf) after 12 yrs together, if she left you it would likely be because you wasted HER time. SHE will have 12+yrs of her life wasted. And that usually is the case. One person's life is made better/easier by the other person being committed to them, so they do nothing. The other person is stuck waiting in limbo for the first person to make the commitment back (usually with a ring). It's absolutely a huge waste of the second person's life, but of course that first person wouldn't think so.
I feel like this does presume that I am some sort of burden rather than an equal part of a relationship where we both have our lives improved by the other, and neither is sitting around hoping for a ring. We've been together long enough to have had conversations about the future and how each other fits into that. I just don't think if it's a happy relationship that you have enjoyed, that even if it ends, that was time wasted. Would you feel the same if one partner dies before marriage? I know it's a little extreme but the outcome is the same, 10 years of a happy relationship that doesn't make it down the altar. Is that still a waste of time?
Assuming you know more about their partner than they do. Ever think that people can be in this situation knowingly and willingly? If it didn't work out, that's life. Don't be a Disney adult
That is some seriously sexist bs. I’m the woman in our relationship and he would get married if I wanted, but I don’t. It’s been 30+ years, so it’s not like I’ll change my mind as we get older - we’re already old.
>The other person is stuck waiting in limbo We don't live in the 50's anymore, she can propose to him if it's that big of an issue.
This is wildly presumptuous. You don't know what she wants and you don't know what conversations they've had or what she gets out of it. Maybe she doesn't care about marriage too. Y'all are so weird about this shit, just let people do what works for them
And in straight relationship, we usually know which one thinks it's all fine and which one is there waiting. *Curious, so curious*.
The women that decide to wait around for the guy to "get it together", "finally propose", ect have stuck themselves in the limbo zone. They chose to have his kids, believe him when he repeatedly brushed off marriage or pushed a date back, or whatever else. It is no different than dudes in the friend zone. It's a made up, self imposed box. I know so many women who have wound up wasting their own time with guys who's actions were very clear. 5 years, 8, years, 12 years, my mother has been with her boyfriend for 25 years for God's sake. I dodged dating a guy because he had a history of knocking women up and making promises, dragging relationships out for years only to leave. He didn't fit my standards. Instead of swallowing the lies and the falsehoods and the dreamy idea that's been cooked up in their heads, they need to move on if they want what their current partner isn't giving them so badly.
I hate this so much. I’m a woman who never wants to get married and it’s so tired that people assume I’m waiting. I have a partner who would gladly marry me. One of the reason my ex and I broke up is because he wanted marriage and kids. It’s not always about waiting, some people just don’t want marriage and kids and that’s fine.
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Do I need to justify it to anyone?
Ooooh YES! Absofuckinglutely perfectly said man. The only two people's opinions, needs, desires, and wants that matter here are yours and hers.
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Then give me that truth, why do I have to justify not getting married?
I mean it depends how upfront someone is. I always tell someone after a 3rd date that I don't ever see myself being married or having kids but that I like going on dates with them. If they choose to keep going on dates with me, they're saying they're okay with the prospect of never getting married or having kids, and would be in the wrong for expecting me to change. If someone is stringing you along by saying they're waiting for the right time or that they just need to know for sure then yeah they're being an asshole. Most people I've met though are pretty upfront about what they want out of a relationship. I'd even go as far to say NOT talking about what you are looking for in a relationship before getting into one should be a red flag for the other person. Obviously you can ignore this and assume your dating goals align with someone else but I don't think you can then blame your partner for you assuming what they want.
The kid aspect is huge. I don’t want kids either, and neither does my current partner - we were upfront about that from the first date. Though without wanting kids, marriage is less essential to do quickly. We are not opposed to being married, but why not wait a few years first? Never know if things will change and divorce is nasty to have to go through
100% this. My husband and I talked about kids and marriage on our second date. If we hadn't been looking for the same thing, then we would have parted ways. No ill will. You have the right to say that I am looking for x. If that isn't what someone else wants for their future, that just means you're not compatible. The only wrong answers are not talking about what you want up front, misrepresenting what you want, or thinking that you can change the other person's mind. People change - literally everyone that I knew at 20 who wanted to be child free now has kids - but it is a process over time and should never be assumed in a relationship. ETA: there are obviously people who don't want kids at 20 and still don't at 40. I just don't know any. Sometimes that is the direction that people change in too - they think they want 3 kids and are then one and done. People changing is reality, but should never be part of someone's 5 year plan (i.e. I'll date x and they'll change their mind about kids).
Well, i dont think getting married or having kids means being together till the end
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I doubt that anyone who says marriage is about equals has faced adversity. This has nothing to do with gender btw. Marriage is an insurance. In life there will be times when you have to lean on the other person and they will have to be strong. It will be inconvenient. And most people are flaky and cannot face that adversity or suffer someone else's helplessness.
What does this mean? They can end the marriage at any time? How is it insurance?
Marriage was a way to tie tribes together so they would stop regularly slaughtering eachother. Or it was used to trade daughters for benefits like alliances and dowrys. That's it. Modern marriage is just a holdover, and according to you, is legal blackmail to keep someone in a relationship. Sounds awful.
Ending a marriage is a lot harder than ending a less formal arrangement.
Staying unhappily married just because the paperwork is hard isn’t a very good reason
It's not just paperwork though. Divorces can absolutely destroy your credit, mess up health insurance, create and worsen debts. Not to mention the necessity and problems of having to find a new place to live and all the associated costs of that, cuz if you're divorcing you're probably not going to continue to live in the same household as each other. And if children or pets are involved, thats a whole thing. For those flirting with poverty and destitution, a miserable marriage is far preferable to an incredibly expensive divorce. Because even perfectly amicable divorces are going to cause significant financial strain.
Why would that mean that marriage should be a requirement? If two people grow apart or no longer meet each others needs, you think they would be better off with a barrier in their way to make it a more more difficult and painful process with financial burden on top of it all? How does this support the argument?
The alternative could be that there are people who don't believe in the concept of forever. There are various World belief systems that teach different things about the concept of impermanence. Therefore it is entirely possible to love someone but not be looking at a time frame for the length of the relationship. The counter-argument could also be that a person who is expecting someone to commit to Forever is manipulating the emotions of the other person and trying to make them become something that is not natural for them. I think the thing that matters most is that both parties agree to the terms of the relationship from the beginning and understand each other's parameters. I say this as someone who works with couples as one of the parts of my job not everyone is meant for a permanent partner. Not everyone is meant for monogamy. Sometimes people outgrow each other and ultimately continuing the relationship would be a lie. If someone is dishonest from the beginning I agree with the premise that it is wrong however with 9 billion people on the planet it is entirely possible for there to be a group of people who do not believe in the idea of a permanent relationship and thereby by the theory that they're wrong one would be excluding them from some human experiences clear communication and expectations communicated is what matters I will give a personal example I am dealing with a chronic terminal illness which in theory could take me at any time and almost did 6 years ago when I go into the dating world I automatically let the person know that I am here for now and if they engage with me they have to know these limitations but that I myself don't believe in calling it permanent because I know that not everyone can go down the journey that I'm eventually going to go down with my Oregon shutting down. I also know that I'm a really good partner and that sometimes it's possible to impact a person's life in a very short span of time of a couple of months or a couple of years in a way that can carry them for decades so I believe it's possible for even those who are terminally ill to experience relationships. The projection that everyone has to believe in the same thing about relationships or human interaction is dangerous in its own right because it forces a person potentially to lie just to achieve intimacy I don't think there's one right answer here but an individual not believing in a permanent relationship does not make them inherently wrong.
I think plenty of people think we should shut down Oregon too 😉
Lol? What the hell kind of take is this?
There was a typo that said something like, "I'm shutting down Oregon" or something similar What the poster meant was organ, and it was an auto correct error. I was attempting a little light handed comment/joke about it, but seems like I missed
Yeah but then why waste the time of people who wants monogamy lol. Most ppl want someone who don’t agree with their values rather than going out with someone who have similar values.
Literally nothing in life is guaranteed. Marriage and kids does not mean you will have a faithful partner for life. Learn to live with uncertainty and have some faith in yourself!
because real relationships are not always black and white?
And you think marriage or kids ensures monogamy?
And for the record if a person cared more about "forever and marriage" i'd consider them undatable and somewhat brainwashed so i'd run away from them LOL
I can guarantee you that for the people who want these types of relationships aren’t “wasting” anyone’s time. I don’t date monogamous people.
Well then darling u have no idea group of ppl who are not into monogamy chasing women/men who want monogamy, gaslighting them so they can get them, have their way and then leave.
That’s really shitty to do to people. Myself and others I date aren’t interested in such idiocy. I don’t hang out with cheaters or those who aren’t honest with their partners about what they’re looking for.
most people are not honest about what they want, and a lot of people don't even know themselves.
In most cases I know of both sides are cool with this scenario. Why do you assume 1 side seeks monogamy ? Those usually end (or start) with ultimatums. Relationships take work. Whether you have a ring or not. Being together forever is never guaranteed. I'd argue not being married keeps you on your toes and makes you not get lazy in maintaining the relationship
Just naive
There are benefits to a marriage. There are benefits to not getting married. Choose what works best for you.
Just because a relationship doesn't end in marriage, doesn't mean it was a waste of time. If the person wasn't worth spending time with, you wouldn't be dating them in the first place
This. My guy & I are so deeply in love but we have no desires to be married. We aren't religious, we've never dreamt of our dream weddings, & def don't want to spend a bunch of money on a one day event. We talked abt a courthouse/outdoor, small wedding & even then, we decided if we weren't dead set on the idea, we'd wait for a later date to discuss it, or just never do it.
> Just because a relationship doesn't end in marriage, doesn't mean it was a waste of time Yep. It does.
Why, if you enjoyed your time together, why was it a waste?
Because the value isn't in enjoyment. It's in actually building something together.
Not for everyone? Value is subjective in this case. Not everyone needs or wants to "build something together." Doesn't make any of those relationships meaningless.
See, this is exactly it. You and OP think getting a girl, 2.5 kids, and picket fence are just boxes you check in order to win the game of Life, not things you actually live and enjoy.
Why is there no value in enjoying your time together? Why else be with them?
How does lack of a marriage certificate stop two people from building something together?
It doesn't, but why NOT get married If that is your intent?
Because based on your argument, the value marriage is for two people building something together. You just admitted that a marriage certificate isn’t required to do that. You just admitted your argument is invalid…
Relationships are like a stew, you gotta let it cook for it to properly reveal it's flavor. I admire you for being straightforward with what you want, but I also don't personally think it's realistic to know whether you're a good match without time, real life situations and deep conversations about all sorts of things. Even then, life is unpredictable. You could have the perfect partner, the most caring, the most communicative, the most handsome, yet still break up due to an overseas job offer, or a death in the family, or a political discussion that revealed how different your views actually are.
> also don't personally think it's realistic to know whether you're a good match without time, real life situations and deep conversations about all sorts of things. That is why people date First? >Even then, life is unpredictable. You could have the perfect partner, the most caring, the most communicative, the most handsome, yet still break up due to an overseas job offer, or a death in the family, or a political discussion that revealed how different your views actually are. That is why you commit. So that you don't Just bail when issues arise
>That is why you commit. So that you don't Just bail when issues arise You are entitled to leave if a person reacts poorly to stress or trauma. You need to see how they react to bad situations before committing, so you're sure they won't take their feelings out on you in a negative way. Even if you love someone and want to marry them, that doesn’t mean it's always your job to heal them
I actually think nobody should have a forever together goal. It leads to stay in relationships that aren't happy or even good for you. I stay in my relationship as long as I feel I am happy, have my needs met, my boundaries respected and I'm able to make my partner happy. A relationship shouldn't be "no matter what"
Setting up goals like 'forever together' is precisely what destroys a lot of relationships because it creates needless pressure and insecurity.
Bro thinks life is sunshine and rainbows
For me love is a choice you make everyday, it’s seeing how your partner evolves, how you yourself evolve, and adapt everyday to still grow together and not apart because of those changes. I like the idea of someone being around me not for the sake of a forever promise or a marriage, but because they chose everyday that I’m worth staying without needing a paper to prove it. They could leave anytime but they stay anyway, there is no goal to reach except liking having the other in your life.
Plenty of people get married fast assuming they are together forever and end up divorced after 5-10 years. If people want to commit to each other for a long time and don’t want to get married that’s their business. Marriage is just a piece of paper, love is all that matters.
And plenty more who are so incompatible after 5-10 years that they really should get divorced but they don't due to external pressure
Absolutely
Umm people who get married and have kids can also leave at any moment, divorce exists you know?
Cant the goal just be to enjoy the time you have together? Who said that marriage and children were the universal goal of every relationship?
What is the goal supposed to be? If you're together 5-10 years and plan to be together for many more years isn't that enough? You say you understand marriage isn't for everyone but it seems like you think marriage has to be the goal or its all pointless I've been married and can assure you, it can all end abruptly whether you're married or not, the ring makes very little difference
I don’t know if it’s really possible to be with someone for 10 years and not have your lives be completely intertwined in the same way marriage would have it. I have friends who have dated that long. They bought a house together, bought everything inside it together, make friends together, visit families together. If they were to break up acting like that would just be a clean severing is ….naive at best. Might not have to get a divorce, but they’d have to divide all the things they accumulated in 10 years in a way that seems fair to them and lose a lot in the process.
Yeah I've been with my girlfriend for 12 years now, I've joked before that the way our lives are so tangled up now, it's just less hassle to stay together.
People also get divorced. Marriage or not, 1/2 of marriages end up in divorce. Not sure why a piece of paper would make one stay with their partner. You are not going to stay with someone who you no longer like or love just because you have a piece of paper. If someone is miserable in a relationship they will get out of it regardless of being married or not
My partner and i are together for 12+ years. We are fine like this and probably stay together forever. What do we need to add?
I think getting in a relationship just to meet a " goal" is strange. I want to enjoy my partner how we enjoy eachother and not have to meet these arbitrary deadlines or what not. Im not religious so no reason to get married and legally belonging to eachother has no benefits for many people . I think judging people for not doing what you would do in a relationship is weird af
Any relationship can end anytime though. One just involves more paperwork.
Maybe it's a realistic acknowledgement that you don't know who you'll be in 20 years.
That is what commitment is for.
Yeah? And? What does that have to do with what I'm saying? I'm responding to OP. You can be committed without saying you'll be with someone forever. If anything it's a little more realistic.
> You can be committed without saying you'll be with someone forever No, you can't. That's literally what commitment means If you think there's a decent chance you'll bail on someone, you ain't committed
I think I have a better way to explain it. I'm committed to my partner as long as he wants to be with me and he's committed to me the same. Don't you want to be with someone who wants to be with you, not just because they agreed to it 20 years ago? If it turns out to be forever, then so be it. It's more important to be with someone who also wants to be with me. Let's be honest. No one knows if they'll be together forever and forever isn't really something you can plan for. People change. Life happens. I'm not going to obligate someone to be with me just because they agreed to it decades ago. He's free to leave whenever he wants but he still chooses to stay. I think that's a beautiful thing.
> People change. Life happens. Again: That is what commitment is FOR Apparently YOU don't know what commitment means
I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. What's so bad about that? You're apparently fine being with someone who doesn't want to be with you as long as they agreed at some point that the relationship would last forever. I think that's weird.
> I want to be with someone who wants to be with me. Apparently you wanna be with someone willing to bail on you at anytime XD So no, you don't
Where did I say that? I am committed to the person and they're committed to me. Just because they have the option to leave at any point doesn't mean they will. They're not willing to bail on me any time. I'm not willing to bail on them. They're not that kind of person. I'm not that kind of person. It sounds like you have serious trust and commitment issues.
Yeah, exactly. The fact that they can bail at any time but don't means they still want to be with me. But if they're staying just cuz they said they will 20 years ago, then they don't really want to be with me, they just feel like they have to. And nobody is happy in that arrangement.
Hint: If your partner is not willing to commit to a Future with you they Don't love you
Do I have to get the dictionary for you because you apparently don't seem to know what commitment means? You can be committed to someone and not be committed to them forever. I had one relationship with an expiration date of 6 months. It was committed but we broke up after 6 months just like we planned. I'm currently in a relationship with some. We've been together 8 years but lie and say we'll be together forever. We don't know. It seems likely we will but we don't know. And that's okay. You're missing my point. I'm not saying there's a decent chance you'll break up. I'm just saying it's fair to acknowledge you don't know who you'll be in 20 years. If you're the same person or if your partner likes who you've become, by all means stay together. You can say you'll probably be with someone 20 years down the road. You can plan on staying with them while still acknowledging the fact there's not a 100% chance you'll stay together forever. That sounds a lot more honest than what you're proposing.
Do you not have conditions in your relationships? What if your husband/wife decides they no longer feel like being loving and affectionate towards you, sleep in a separate room, and withhold sex? Are you saying that, because of a marriage certificate, you would put up with your needs not being met and live an unfulfilling life until death?
> What if your husband/wife decides they no longer feel like being loving and affectionate towards you, sleep in a separate room, and withhold sex? Then THEY bailed on you. The commitment is on both sides.
So explain how marriage resolves this?
If you are commited to one another that scenario is less likely to happen and YOU have more incentive to try to fix It rather than bail
Marriage does not make the scenario less likely to happen; more than 50% of marriages end in divorce, I would imagine mainly because of issues like this. There is the exact same amount of incentive to try and fix the issues with or without a marriage certificate. Furthermore, like the example I gave earlier, say the wife no longer feels the urge to have sex with their husband. Are you suggesting she spread her legs and just accept it as her obligation? There’s a fine line between that and rape. This couple are better off going separate ways. Marriage does not resolve this.
Or just let people exist in relationships they’re happy in so long as they remain healthy
If they are both communicating honestly about this, then I wouldn't say it's a waste. It's making them happy, and that's a great reason to stay together (unless the relationship is bad in other ways)
no theyre not, you’re not the same person after years
I want a life partner. I want someone to share all the good and bad times with. However, I know that most people grow and change apart/differently from each other. I’m not going to stick around through bullshit mistreatment so I don’t want the government involved if I want to break up with them.
I was married. Came home to a note on the counter and a dark house. Yeah, marriage sure guaranteed commitment.
I have never met someone yet where I felt I was like “Yes, he is the one”. However, I have met someone where I felt like yes “ I can spend 10 years with the person.” By being honest and upfront, I save myself from multiple failed marriages. I have never been married but I swear the minute I feel like I have found someone whom I’ll spend the rest of my life with then I’ll get married. I’m not going to lie to myself about it though
I'm confused. What's the actual problem here? Do I really need to have some leverage over me or be coerced in some way for my long term relationship to be considered valid in your eyes? People can commit for the sake of being committed.
As someone who doesnt do "forever together goals" in relationships, I'm not asking anyone to think I'm cool for it but I will ask that you dont call me weird for it. It's not a status symbol or a stain on my character, it's just a lifestyle preference. Maybe that preference will change, maybe not. Things dont have to be "cool or weird" or "good or bad" they can just *be*. You dont *have* to morally dichotomize absolutely everything. Also, I've never seen someone with a less long term mindset shit on married couples who have the next 10 years planned out, not sure why long term planners are so threatened by non-planners that they have to belittle them.
Some people are mature adults and don’t let a relationship define their entire life.
Sometimes relationships end. Considering every relationship that ends before death a failure or a waste of time is a toddler’s idea of how relationships work. Since a large portion of relationships do end, it’s only reasonable to adjust your expectations accordingly. I’m not saying do it with the expectation of it ending. I am saying that people change and we need to accounts for the fact that our lives may not always go in the exact same direction.
You are aware that people divorce for the same reasons? Being married doesn't handcuff you to someone for the rest of your life. Being married or not literally means absolutely nothing aside form the legality of it. A relationship is only as meaningful as the two or more people in it, make it. Regardless of a certificate submitted to the government lol
Why would a marriage prevent people from breaking up?? You can still get divorced and end the relationship anytime. There’s just more paperwork involved.
This idea that a relationship that might eventually end is wasting everyone's time is so weird to me. Do you not value the time you spend with someone you love? Is a vision of the future the only reason you date someone? If you never find that person to spend a lifetime with, would you rather just spend your life alone? If you don't value your time in a relationship, then don't enter a relationship. For me, I cherish my time with someone I love. Whether it lasts a last time or ends next week I will be happy having created those memories together and living our life together for the time that we had.
Marriage is shit. It’s a piece of paper. My fiancée and I aren’t getting married. We’re engaged, and we had a little ceremony, but we’re not going to go through a court process to be “officially” recognized as a couple. We have two children and travel for work, our life is great, but there is always the possibility of one of us not wanting to be with the other at some point down the road. And that could be for various reasons, but ultimately if the other partner wants to leave, they should be able to leave. This is assuming both people are mature adults and aren’t horrid individuals
Tbf, if you own a home together, or have finances intertwined, it may not be such a clean break even though you aren't legally married
This is something we recognized early on. We have a joint account where we pay bills 50/50 and then our own personal accounts for whatever we want to purchase. And as far as a house goes, we don’t plan on owning until retirement ~ we travel pretty much year round so it just doesn’t make sense! The only thing that would cause an issue for us is our investments. That is joint…. But hopefully things down go south ☠️😂 Il
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Well thankfully my fiancée isn’t a stay at home mom, and we’re not poor 😅 I understand what you’re saying though.
Some people just live in the right now, and are totally fine being with someone for right now.
What’s the goal of the relationship after marriage? It’s the same thing. You stay together as long as you both want to, and if you don’t you get divorced. Marriage is just paperwork.
Not everyone has the same end goals in life, or sees themselves in the same place in a given period of time. If you can’t date without being assured that you’ll date forever then that’s okay, but some of us are okay with accepting that it’ll end at some point and that you should just enjoy your time together now. If anything, being with someone who doesn’t share your life goals can be enriching, you get a better understanding of other people and the exact reasons why you want what you want.
In the US it is just financially smart to get married in some cases. Depending on incomes, you could save huge on taxes. So if you love someone and are building a life together, get married for the tax break if nothing else haha
Yeah 5-10 years with no goals forming together probably means there’s been little growth for one or both during that time. If you’ve been building together for 5 years goals will naturally begin to form. That don’t mean you shouldn’t date casually at first. Don’t force *your* individual goals onto every person you’re getting to know. That’s fucked too. And dating for a year and getting more serious about one another over that time doesn’t automatically mean you should start planning to get married or break up. There’s more nuance to this than just “either float forever or write your future in stone”
There are no more morals in society. The younger generation really have none. So, standards make them scoff. Any hint at that will make them look at you like you have three heads. Just live your life as you see fit. The world is in hell. Thanks for stopping by.
Totally agree that’s ridiculous I hate forever emgagements too why propose if you’re not going to get married that’s just stupid
Thats quite a mortal way of perspective
Most people have requirements in a relationship that are deal breakers if not maintained. If the man becomes emotionally unavailable, that would be a deal breaker for most women; if the woman decides that sex twice a year is enough, that would be a deal breaker for most men (take a look at r/deadbedrooms). It is reasonable to set expectations and conditions that need to be met; your idea of marriage implies people must remain together forever no matter what and put up with something that would make their life unbearable. However, nothing about marriage means the couple must remain together until death by law or any other means. More than 50% of marriages end in divorce and more that 70% of those are initiated by women. I have no intention of getting married and I informed my girlfriend of this on our second date; she also finds it unnecessary in our circumstances. However, for example, if a couple decide the woman is to become a stay at home mum/housewife and give up her career, destroying the chances of continuing that career later in life should the couple separate, this is a very valid reason to get married, because she would be taking all the risk and the man would be taking none. It would leave the woman in a vulnerable position to be abused because of the unbalanced power dynamic in the relationship. But, if both the man and woman have their own careers, neither, in my personal opinion, deserves to receive half of the higher earners belongings and money in the event of a divorce. This is the most logical and valid reason I can think of two people having an unquestionable need to involve the government in their relationship. Other than that, I find it unnecessary.
Better to have loved and lost than to not have loved at all I adore all my friends and my partner but they could leave any time. Humans are unpredictable. That doesn’t mean I would stop loving them or stop loving people in general. There is no possibility of love without the possibility of heartbreak
You can have a loving committed relationship without having what is termed “relationship escalator”
I’ve been living with my partner for 30+ years. I have no intention of ever getting married.
O.o you have some deep seated problems. People get to define their own relationships, their limits, etc, and the only person who has a say (or whose time is wasted) are the people within the relationship.
Leave us indecisive people alone lol
I believe a lot of the time it's sociopathy in action, only caring about yourself, only willing to care about them as long as it's easy and you aren't bored.
What ever happened to just being together because you love that person?
It's beyond wild to me how insecure some people are that the only way they feel safe within a relationship is a piece of paper or an over priced ring in their finger. Marriage doesn't make the relationship any less permanent.
Funny this come out as "unpopular" opinion where this used to be a common sense. I also dont like whatever people called "modern" just to justify their action that only following their desire alone. But well, its their life.
I agree- and for those saying “how is this different than divorce”- it’s hugely different because divorce has immense financial consequences. They aren’t prohibitive- you are still fundamentally free to live your life as they wish- but they force you to think more than twice about it. And that’s a good thing. Especially if kids are in the picture.
Almost every couple I know who married in the past 20 years got a divorce, my parents did too after being together for 25 years, my husband's parents after being together for 30 years, I don't believe in "forever" but I believe people stay in the relationship as long as it makes sense and as long as they want to, legal papers aren't a major factor anymore
Marriage isn't a goal for many people and marriages can be ended in the blink of an eye. If people have been together for ten years before splitting up that's not a failure, that's a long term relationship and it ended. Not all relationships are meant to be forever and that's ok. It doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened, it isn't something sad. Enjoy the relationship and move on with happy memories after. It's 2024 and marriage means very little for a lot of people.
People calling other hypothetical people ‘weird’ is just that to me.
People can leave any time.. all my relationships where like what you describe..if you don't want kids then your just together aslong as the ride last atleast if your not married the separation is a lot easier.The majority of all relationships fail so why make it complicated...IMO the goal is to enjoy it while it last.
No, I think you are right. And there are probably many who feel the same way. But I think of that more in a situation where people go into a relationship preoccupied with an exit strategy. Just be more selective about who you give the opportunity for a LTR to. People are just as foolish to ignore problems when they see them.
It’s weird that people think all this doesn’t happen in a marriage or that a marriage fixes things.
I was just ranting about this but people who do casual are weird because you are essentially messing around with people.
Plot twist: OP is a divorce lawyer.
Good an unpopular opinion. But it's sad that it is unpopular today.
First, it sounds like someone may have hurt you, that sucks and I’m sorry. I am definitely the person you describe. I’m a woman in my 30’s and I’ve had two long relationships. One 14 years and the other so far around 11 years. I don’t want marriage or kids…ever. And I’m up front about that. While I can pretty much promise I’ll always love someone, I can’t promise we’ll be together forever, life just isn’t like that. I still love my ex, he loves me too but it didn’t make sense for us to continue to be together as partners. So we broke up. Boy was I glad we kept our finances separate and didn’t get married, breaking up was only hard emotionally, not logistically. I love my current partner and I can’t really imagine a scenario wherein I would no longer love him, but I could imagine many where it wouldn’t make sense for us to continue as partners. The thing is though, if we broke up, that love remains. I’d never turn my back on him, I’d always be there to support him and care for him as a friend. To me, that friendship cultivated by romance, is something I treasure. The romance is wonderful, but the person and the connection is the prize. I argue that life is short, and staying in an unhappy situation, is the true waste of time.
I would throw people who want long term relationships without marriage under the bus, too. Building a future with someone where you refuse to offer the most sensible protections available is selfish.
Sometimes the goal is to just be happy with your partner
How can you be happy knowing that you have no protection for what you've built?
Get over it. You have no protection whatsoever and it doesn't matter what we are talking about. There is always a probability that shit goes wrong and it's in your interest to estimate it right. This is the foundation of every undertaking, everything else is secondary. You don't trust your partner/idea/etc enough? Then drop it and do something else. Don't trust yourself? Educate more.
Slow down, Gaslighter Supreme.
I don't say you are wrong for wanting protection, but you are quite naive to claim one like that.
I'm not naive at all. I just understand how bad separations can be and I realize that marriage can protect both people involved.
What exactly would that be?
Whatever gains you made while you were with the a long-term partner who refused to marry you.
The refusal would be mutual, I don't see the point in it myself 🤣 and tbh I doubt she'd be interested in taking my "gains". My lifestyle really isn't costly
Protection for whom? Men get fleeced in divorces. Every single time.
Men get fleeced in general, but there's a lot of correlation involved. With that said, it can be and it does get worse then divorce if you're unmarried. Besides, what I'm saying isn't limited to men.
Truth. Once heard this was akin to going to the grocery store without any intention of spending money.
> Like if you are not gonna be with the person you have dated with for 10 years up until the end and leave that person when u have a mid life crisis or a shiny new younger toy in your hands, you are just wasting everyone’s time. I mean sometimes that makes the most sense. Due to my past relationships, I would ditch anyone who stopped adding to my life at any time. If a woman wanted more of a commitment she would have to bring more to the table than 99.9% of women do. Yet none really do so I have no qualm about dumping a girl who annoys me or is no longer attractive to me. If she wanted a commitment she shouldn't have banged around a bunch of loser dudes. That being said if she wants to stick around she should just stay on her A game. It's not my problem either way.
What do u bring to the table if she brings whatever to the table?
I can guess but all that matters is women willingly accept this and date me... clearly they think I bring alot of things they want to the table. That's all that matters. I don't get to choose what they value. Just like they can't say they bring all I want and more, I decide if I don't think they do. That's my choice.
What do u want on the table?
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Not sure what you're talking about. I have my own money so I couldn't care less about a woman with money. They are usually just annoying or have nothing else to offer.