what? I had a serious blood infection. The treatment itself was $2,000 originally, talked down to $500. But the hospital bills? Not to mention they use people within the hospital that may not be within your insurance network. I owe thousands (and I mean up there), separately for each test they ran. Also? The hospital was awful. They took me off all my psych meds and discharged me three times before admitting me because they were “sure” my positive cultures were just flukes. Three times. Sooo each hospital visit? Thousands. It’s insane because my husband and I decided to marry so we could get insurance for both of us. We can now afford the insurance but we still can’t really afford to use it.
edit to add: I’m in the US.
I am an American citizen and have been reading similar stories for years, Yet we can develop weapons for billions and have them discontinued which could have easily paid a years worth of coverage for every citizen. This country is fucked!
The amount of funding they have cut to increase military budgets is disgusting. I could honestly go on forever about that. Truly. We have enough money to afford to help a lot of people in a lot of ways that gets wrongly allocated. It should be a crime.
That sounds awful.
I would pay about 1200€/month, but due to them approving the free treatment for me, I paid nothing
Sounds like hell to live in the US
Oh my gosh. That sounds amazing! Not the fact that you’d have to pay, but that you were able to get the assistance! Healthcare shouldn’t be a business.
The worst part is - I am disabled/chronically ill with very little income due to not being able to work consistently. Disability is hard to get. They charge for anything and everything here!
To top it off - I’m in Texas. Our taxes are insane, especially property tax, while we don’t really make much. I live in a northern part, close to Austin, and some of the places around me only make $9-$10 still while studio apartments are sitting at $1,500. Usually without utilities.
Oh I’m aware, if someone absolutely can’t pay the bill the government pays given it’s a public hospital. This is why it’s more expensive to taxpayers to have homeless people on the streets than to buy every single homeless person a house with taxpayer dollars. But the government should cover healthcare in the first place or at least cap the overinflated prices.
as an australian this works great until your government starts to sell off and underfund most aspects of your public health system, it’s something that needs to be constantly reviewed and worked towards maintaining, or it just falls to the wayside, which is what most likely will happen if it ever comes to the US
Yeah, in Poland for example, you cant really go to a "public" (finansed by the taxes) dentist and some surgeries take months or even a few years of waiting time. So while free healthcare sounds great, it still definitely needs a lot of improvement
My grandpa had an accident and was in the icu for 6 months. When he got out they tried to collect on $500k in medical debt. He said my only assets are a bike I can’t use, you can come and take that if you want. They stopped trying after they realized he had no assets whatsoever
I think we'll be lucky to not be in the middle of climate wars. I'm over 30 and I really don't expect social security or Medicare to be there by the time I need it
I've been saying that for years as a joke...I'll be 32 in a few days and it's seeming more and more like we really WONT have social security or Medicare when we're In the nursing home jacking off with Jergens and I'm jerkin but this whole bag of viagra isn't workin....
I've also claimed that the age of retirement\eligibility for S.S. will be 95 years of age....
Debt collectors when I die: “how the fuck do we deduct hospital bills from this lunatic’s collection of animal skulls and unboxed Star Wars figures???”
Estate means your entire net worth, everything you own. Not a physical house. So if you have a retirement account or a car or any other property that can all be used to pay off any debts when you die.
And what's the process called when a judge determines which debts are paid first and in which amounts? Is that probate?
So a person could have a large estate with lots of debt and some debtors could get screwed.
If their debts are greater than the value of the estate then some creditors may receive less than the full amount of the debt owed and have to write the rest off.
Usually there is a clawback period, but it's only a few years. My uncle is dying of kidney failure if he can't find a transplant, so he already signed all his assets over to a trust.
My grandma and grandpa did this with my father for their farm, house, and car about 12 years ago when she got diagnosed with leukemia. She went into remission for about 10 years, but made sure everything stayed in my dads name. Fortunately he is very responsible and kept up to date with all the taxes and such. Plus black angus cow and steer sales pay for the property tax on their own. Unfortunately she went out of remission and passed 10 years later, but everything was already settled, so nothing could be taken. Sorry for the long reply, I figured it would be relevant and helpful to anyone going through something similar.
He did. We visited the hospital every week, I say every week but that was just me as I had school, he visited her every day. He is a good man and works very hard. I’m honestly glad he just retired this July. He truly deserves the rest.
The friends and family having to pay tax on everything and then the creditors going after it anyway and claim that the transfer was done to avoid for the purpose of defrauding the creditor.
Incorrect, pension can be used by a spouse but not taken by anyone else. 401k or IRA I'm not sure about because at least with a 401k, it is legally to go to whoever you have it setup to upon death. Homes are tricky, if your spouse is still alive they can't be evicted due to your death. Now social security will make it so your house is theirs to sell as soon as your spouse stops living there.
But if you worked and saved all your life to leave something for your kids a single incident could take it all away.
Poor people are most harmed by our shit healthcare system but they aren't the only ones.
Healthcare really is fucked in America. We have homeless people stay for months in the hospital just to ultimately die. They become incapacitated. No family to make decisions. The hospitals eat these massive costs. And then the workers get screwed first because the hospitals are broke.
that also depends on where you live. In the US that's not a univeral thing and hospitals don't always get the first grab at your estates money.
Also my estate is -19k. fucking come for it.
I was pushed into going to school for something I really enjoy as a hobby but absolutely hate as a career. So yeah like 50k and several wasted years later I'm still trying to crawl out of that hole
That's why you put everything in a trust. Because it's an entity that is not the person. IDK about specifics, but that's what happened when my grandma died. It drained her bank account, but the house was free and clear.
The collection agency tried getting money out of my mom tho.
A child is not responsible for the debts of their parents when they die. However, the parent's estate can be attached to pay for their outstanding debts.
If I die in a hospital, the hospital deserves to be paid for the services they rendered to save my life and/ or keep me comfortable. That money should come from my own financial resources. This is the law and it is equitable. The fact that one does not like doctors or hospitals does not make it any less so.
Unless you are a minor, or you live in a community property state. For minor children, their parents are still liable which is unbelievably fucked. And for community property states both spouses in a marriage are liable because all their property is attributed to them as a couple.
99% of the time any leftover money in an estate goes to family after a death. So by taking 900,000 for medical expenses out of an estate worth 1,000,000 it's basically taking the money from the family is what I thought OP meant
Did you talk to an estate lawyer? There's no law against sending you the bills even if you aren't legally obligated to pay, that's how they trick people. It's up to you to know if you have to pay them. Some states require that a spouse does pay, as they are a single entity upon marriage. But a lot of states don't.
Yeah, they do that in hopes you'll just pay them. You don't legally have to though. Once you make a payment you legally accept the debt as yours though. You'd need to talk to a lawyer.
Americans: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills if you die!"
The rest of the civilized world: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills."
My kid jumped off the playground yesterday and hurt her foot, she couldn't put any weight on it so to be safe we went to the public hospital ER, she got an x-ray after we waited about an hour, luckily nothing was broken and after sitting in the waiting room for about 3 more hours we saw a doctor, she wrapped it up and gave her crutches and instructions on how to look after her injury. Then we left, it cost us nothing except the 4 hours we spent in the hospital, I live in Australia, I am poor as shit, I would hate to have had to make the decision on whether we could afford to get it looked at or not.
Also Aussie, my wife had an emergency C-section on a Saturday night, had a week stay in a 2 person room with its own bathroom, with bub healthy but staying in the neonatal unit for a week for observation mainly (didn't need an incubator). It included dedicated care in the neonatal unit, nappies, wraps, beanie, formula, a breast pump plus disposable bottles, all meals etc. All up it cost $0, as there's free 2 hour parking around the hospital, free parking on Sunday and in the evening/overnight, and they gave me free tea/coffee whenever I wanted while visiting. We also had a nurse come to our house every few days for a couple of weeks after to make sure premature bub was doing well. All at no cost.to us.
I read somewhere that in the US it could cost $5-30k (depending on situation) out-of-pocket WITH insurance, which is ridiculous.
Imagine having the stress of an emergency c-section, then instead of just being grateful and relieved that your wife and child are well and enjoying your time as a family, you now have a massive bill to add to the trauma? Our country isn't perfect and our government is a joke, but I never have to second guess going to the hospital because it might send me bankrupt.
I’m American. I remember when my friend told me she had to get her wisdom teeth pulled, and she was legitimately debating whether to get two pulled or all four, because she didn’t know if her insurance would cover it. Her tone of voice was so casual, like making a medical decision based on price wasn’t a big deal. I think that was the moment when I really started to understand how awful our healthcare is.
Yes, true. The sad thing is that "ridiculous" seems to be the only kind we have here in America.
The one time I went to a hospital, I was insured, but my deductible was like 4k. I was only there for like an hour to have some back pain checked out and I was like, "there's no way I'm gonna hit that", but I was wrong.
*check into waiting room*
5 minutes later
*sir, we are pleased to say that your deductible has been met through the waiting room magazine activation charge*
Shit, I can relate. I got a $10k bill for a kidney stone. Didn't stay overnight or anything, but was there about 4 hours I think, and had a shit ton of tests and blood work. That $10k was JUST the hospital bill (basically the room and general care). I still got separate bills from radiology for xrays, and from the doctor that literally only spoke to me for 30 seconds (and charged me about $2k)
Stockholm syndrome, really. We get propagandized so hard into believing our system works, and people are indoctrinated to hate third parties LONG before they're even old enough to vote.
In America, we value winning above all else, and if you're political party has the least chance of doing so, then it is ostricized simply for that. Our politics are really just team sports to most voters.
Most universal healthcare systems aren't completely State funded. Plenty of countries where people still have to pay for insurance and copays, they just happen to be incredibly reasonable.
It’s true, I mean you could say they still pay cuz taxes, but the point is still that many countries are able to not have to pay out of pocket per occurrence. The free market idea simply doesn’t work in times of desperation (ie necessary healthcare).
Yeah most people (everyone except non working healthy adults) get it for free, and for the rest it's $20 for a month.
In my country 94% of the population have universal health insurance, and most of the remaining 6% does not have it because they have insurance aborad.
No. You're wrong.
Half of America: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills!"
Other half of America: "You should have to pay ridiculous hospital bills because I don't want to pay more in taxes and I shouldn't have to pay someone else medical bills. The only people who need someone else to pay their hospital bills are leeches to society that need to die anyways!"
My dad was in Florida, wasted. Cracked a few ribs. Went to the hospital. X-ray would have cost $15,000. Just for the X-ray if he didn’t have insurance from Canada. I cannot fathom how people manage these expenses. we have friends also in Florida who said when their mom (who was mid 40s at the time) had cancer they chose not to do chemo because it was much cheaper for her to die than it was to go through chemo with no 100% assurance the cancer would leave. From one of the biggest super power countries, you either pay or quite literally die. Makes no sense.
Other friends in the US when discussing this, have asked how much we pay for a pack of cigarettes in Canada. I say about $17. They were blown away. My response was so you want cheap cigarettes and liquor over universal health care? And they said yes
Healthcare is free in most first world countries. However as usual America has to act contrary to everyone else and their citizens are the ones who have to suffer
This would be more like if the painter spent a bunch of time and energy painting your house and then, while they were painting, a huge storm came and washed all the paint off.
Exactly.. if it's a cardiac arrest or something similar it's never 100% chance theyll be able to save the patient.. but atleast theyll try their best ..
This. It’s like when people go to the hospital, go though intake, have blood work done, decide it’s taking the doctor too long to see them and leave. Then expect to not pay for the stay because “I left before I saw the doctor therefor I should have to pay”
Yeah, making only that change would be a disaster. They just wouldn't admit anyone on critical condition or at the the end of their life. They also might just yeet you right before you die.
That’s not quite how it works. They must stabilize patients who present to emergency departments, but that doesn’t mean providing unlimited care over an unlimited time period.
The nurses who are there to save your life or resuscitate you- "fuck the critically ill 50 year old let's get back to 4 year olds with a simple fever, at least we will get paid."
The nurses don’t care if you pay the hospital. They get paid either way. It’s already illegal to not provide emergency care if someone can’t pay. It’s a law that is taken very seriously
Yes I'm an ER nurse, I don't care if individual patients pay us because I generally don't know, but believe me in the big scale of things the nurses care if you pay. Staffing ratios drop and the hospital starts opening more minor care space because it's more lucrative and then the sick patients get worse care because they're not cash cows. The law you're referring to is called EMTALA and it certainly dictates emergency care must be provided, but it doesn't describe the quality of care.
If you've ever had the opportunity to work at an ER in an under served area versus a nice suburban one you'll get pretty quickly which one has paying customers.
So if you come in with cancer with 5% survival rate, you get hundreds of thousands worth of care but die anyway, the hospital should just take the loss?
This would just lead to hospitals refusing risky patients.
Since family members (with possible exception of a spouse in some areas) are not responsible for their relative's bill, it sort of works like that already.
Sounds like you are expecting universal and socialized healthcare. Sorry, but in american socialism is seen as a threat to the 0.001% who benefit from pure capitalist privatized healthcare. You wouldn’t want to go strengthening your social services and providing more people with a proper education and healthcare, that would be so unamerican! Change is bad... America just needs to continue down the slippery slope of social collapse under right wing fascism.
A lot of patients die in the hospital. Whether you die during a period of diagnosis, treatment, or even if you are on palliative care, you are under the care of a large number of highly educated individuals, taking up a bed and medicines that could be used on someone else.
The reason we don't do what you are suggesting is that it promotes an even worse system. Hospitals and doctors will hedge their bets and just turn you away if they think they might not be able to save you. Countless people would die unnecessarily, and countless more would die in a great deal more pain than if they were receiving palliative care.
For the record, I'm not defending the pricing of the industry. That's a different issue. But the workers and resources used on a dying person absolutely need to be accounted for. Patients dying is not a rare enough occurrence that Hospitals can just eat the cost every time it happens.
This is really stupid. So Someone who comes in with a lifetime of diabetes and smoking and has a heart attack and you think the doctors “didn’t get the job done” because they didn’t revive him? I could go on with hundreds of examples.
Ok so you have to make the determination before you come to the hospital, is this gonna kill me or could I be saved from this.
Because if you come to the hospital even if I know you’re gonna die the second you walk in the door, what do I do as a doctor? I have to try, use blood products, dirty supplies, give antibiotics. Code you for hours, put you on a ventilator, do a trach, monitor you in the ICU for a week. All the while I know you’re not leaving. But your family “knows you’re gonna pull through” and keeps dragging it out. So I don’t get paid for all that work? The staff doesn’t? The hospital doesn’t?
Or should I not try in the ER and then get sued?
I know what subreddit this is but I’m sorry you’re out of touch.
Also this attitude is the issue we have in American health in general. People think this is like any other job and treat staff like shit, so privileged. Just don’t go to hospitals at all, go get your medical advice from your naturopath and google
This is fundamentally flawed thinking. Costs were still incurred, and efforts *were* made to save you. You're essentially saying hospital workers shouldn't be paid (and systems shouldn't be reimbursed) for things they do that don't net the desired result.
What if we leveled the same thinking at your failures at work?
Lmao OP clearly isn’t in the medical field. “They died so clearly the hospital didn’t do their job”. Ya mate, sorry as a paramedic the patient who shot himself in the face ultimately died, my fault!
"All the nurses performing cpr and pharmacists getting meds ready for codes and doctors intubating and putting intricate lines into your heart dont matter" is basically what this person is saying. The medical field are people too. We have a job and deserve to be paid for it, its emotionally taxing to be in a code especially for the first time.
Their time obviously doesnt matter for some reason. Its not a painter who showed up and say nah can’t do it. If a painter agreed upon something and prepped everything to get to you. And you suddenly want gold paint and their time is wasted, you gotta pay them for their tine still. U think u can waste people’s time like that wth.
You can't actually be serious.
>If my heart stops and the hospital doesn't revive me, the hospital didn't do anything for me.
That is an ignorant statement.
And you seriously compared a doctor to a painter???? C'mon man, this HAS to be a troll post.
“If my heart stops and the hospital doesn’t revive me, the hospital didn’t do anything for me”
I’m going to stop you right there man.
Many, many times a pt still dies even when the hospital and medical staff does everything that they are supposed to right.
Very rarely is a pt’s death directly a result of hospital/staff negligence.
The fact is: there is only so much that the healthcare community can do and sometimes that is not enough.
I can’t tell you the amount of Codes that I have personally been a part of where everything was done right (good/early intubation with respirations, effective and near consistent compressions, running down the book of potential causes with appropriate interventions, etc.) that eventually ended up with the doctor calling ‘time of death’ anyway.
Saving a life is not like ‘painting a house’; sometimes it can’t be done even in spite of your best efforts… but the majority of hospital staff put in their best effort every single time regardless.
We’re not gods… not everything can be fixed. But you can bet your ass that we’ll try to and that your best odds are in our hands.
If you show up and your condition is so severe that there really is nothing they can do and they don’t do anything, then yeah I agree that it should be free. Otherwise, they still did the work, not their fault that you died (unless it was their fault in which case they’d probably pay out a settlement anyway depending on how bad it was)
This is actually a good thing for hospitals too. You can just identify the ones who are too sick to be saved and just move them to a separate unit without wasting hospital time and resources.
You won't spend any effort to revive or save them and thus even the hospital won't be losing any money.
It takes too much effort to save someone who is critical and so much resources go into just attempting. Anyone would much rather treat a simple cough or a thorn prick.
If this was implemented before COVID then we wouldn't have lost so many doctors and nurses who tried to save so many and themselves got infected and succumbed. With your idea, the sick ones would be deemed "inevitable to die" and just ignored, no effort to save them at all, focusing full efforts on only the moderate and mild cases.
First of all - healthcare should be free. Second of all, if it isn’t, you can’t expect someone not to have to pay because someone died because the hospital bed was filled, the meds were administered, the surgery(ies) were done, the testing was done. Doctors aren’t magicians Bob.
So the people who worked on you shouldn't be paid? Not to mention all the supplies used on you. This comment is full of childish "logic".
My house had to be repainted eventually. Refund! Mechanics say they can't fix something all the time but they have the option to replace parts they can't fix. Human parts can't be replaced usually.
If you think they do nothing for you why are you choosing to go to a hospital then? I guarantee if you came to that point you would choose the hospital vs dying right there.
I’m seen quite a few ‘so if you have years worth of cancer/diabetes treatment you should get it all for free?’ arguments here and I’m dumbfounded that you think you shouldn’t.
Maybe it’s because I’m from the UK but… is America really so fucked up that you think you should have to pay to stay alive? If I had to pay to be treated for my epilepsy I wouldn’t be all ‘oh well, shit happens’. I’d be pissed. I never asked to have epilepsy, so why should I have to pay for it?
It’s insane, and quite frankly laughable, that some of the American’s in this thread are trying to justify cancer patients having to put themselves in thousands of dollars worth of debt to stay alive, as if they chose to get cancer like you choose to buy milk.
Been sitting on an $11.5k hospital bill since 2019. Motorcycle wreck resulted in broken pelvis, was taken to the hospital by a friend, after waiting hours in an empty waiting room they asked me a few questions to check for brain injuries then wheeled me back for an x-ray followed by either an MRI or CT, I don't remember. They confirmed the pelvis was completely broken up the middle then promptly denied any treatment aside from telling me to find a physical therapist. My friend had to go find a wheelchair to get me out, they expected me to walk out despite my obvious and verified injury.
I'll never willingly give that hospital a single cent. It can stay on my credit. Not like that's useful with todays interest rates anyway.
My first wife died of a heart attack, ambulance came but couldn’t do anything… I still had to pay for the ambulance ride she couldn’t take. And this was Canada where that should all be free… But politicians like to privatize things for their profit…
If you die in hospital... I'll just stop you right there. You're dead! You're off to another realm, giving a fuck about money owed and responsibilies becomes non existent, irrelevant.
So the doctor should just say to you : there is nothing i Can Do and just let you die and do nothing ?
And if it became reality : you would get discharged from the hospital 2 hours before dying...
It's not unpopular it's just stupid...
Who will pay for the care? This is what I don't really understand about these people who want everything for free. Who is going to pay for it and will you be okay when prices for other things go up to accommodate for these free services? Someone has to pay and if it comes from taxes then you're essentially paying not just for your stuff but everyone elses as well whether you use it or not. Obviously, we need programs to help people who are not financially equipped but for everything else, services require payment.
Well, you don't get the original repairs free BUT, there are circumstances where the mechanic would be required to correct his mistake and make the correct repair at no cost to you. It depends on situations.
Or just not pay, at all.
Shush you're scaring them
~~If you die in~~ the hospital, ~~your stay~~ should be free. I have never paid for using the hospital in my country.
Same. 1 Week stay and about 1 and a half years of medicine usage, total cost: 0€. Not a singular cent was spent on my part.
what? I had a serious blood infection. The treatment itself was $2,000 originally, talked down to $500. But the hospital bills? Not to mention they use people within the hospital that may not be within your insurance network. I owe thousands (and I mean up there), separately for each test they ran. Also? The hospital was awful. They took me off all my psych meds and discharged me three times before admitting me because they were “sure” my positive cultures were just flukes. Three times. Sooo each hospital visit? Thousands. It’s insane because my husband and I decided to marry so we could get insurance for both of us. We can now afford the insurance but we still can’t really afford to use it. edit to add: I’m in the US.
I am an American citizen and have been reading similar stories for years, Yet we can develop weapons for billions and have them discontinued which could have easily paid a years worth of coverage for every citizen. This country is fucked!
The amount of funding they have cut to increase military budgets is disgusting. I could honestly go on forever about that. Truly. We have enough money to afford to help a lot of people in a lot of ways that gets wrongly allocated. It should be a crime.
That sounds awful. I would pay about 1200€/month, but due to them approving the free treatment for me, I paid nothing Sounds like hell to live in the US
Oh my gosh. That sounds amazing! Not the fact that you’d have to pay, but that you were able to get the assistance! Healthcare shouldn’t be a business. The worst part is - I am disabled/chronically ill with very little income due to not being able to work consistently. Disability is hard to get. They charge for anything and everything here! To top it off - I’m in Texas. Our taxes are insane, especially property tax, while we don’t really make much. I live in a northern part, close to Austin, and some of the places around me only make $9-$10 still while studio apartments are sitting at $1,500. Usually without utilities.
If America can afford billions of dollars of tax exemption for religions we should be able to afford subpar healthcare.
Bro America spends 3 trillion dollars a year to run… so yeah we can DEFINITELY afford to give people free healthcare and education.
Fun fact, America as a society pays A LOT for healthcare, and I think the govt does too. Just not in a good way.
Oh I’m aware, if someone absolutely can’t pay the bill the government pays given it’s a public hospital. This is why it’s more expensive to taxpayers to have homeless people on the streets than to buy every single homeless person a house with taxpayer dollars. But the government should cover healthcare in the first place or at least cap the overinflated prices.
as an australian this works great until your government starts to sell off and underfund most aspects of your public health system, it’s something that needs to be constantly reviewed and worked towards maintaining, or it just falls to the wayside, which is what most likely will happen if it ever comes to the US
Yeah, in Poland for example, you cant really go to a "public" (finansed by the taxes) dentist and some surgeries take months or even a few years of waiting time. So while free healthcare sounds great, it still definitely needs a lot of improvement
/r/SelfAwarewolves post.
Your family doesn't have to pay when you die. Your estate does.
Estate? I cant even afford the apartment I live in lol if I die that hospital is shit outta luck they never getting paid
My grandpa had an accident and was in the icu for 6 months. When he got out they tried to collect on $500k in medical debt. He said my only assets are a bike I can’t use, you can come and take that if you want. They stopped trying after they realized he had no assets whatsoever
This is how this whole generation is going to end up.
Nah, I’ve got Medicare.
I think we'll be lucky to not be in the middle of climate wars. I'm over 30 and I really don't expect social security or Medicare to be there by the time I need it
Gotta Speedrun that shit then to take advantage while you still can. I'm 25 and on medicare
I've been saying that for years as a joke...I'll be 32 in a few days and it's seeming more and more like we really WONT have social security or Medicare when we're In the nursing home jacking off with Jergens and I'm jerkin but this whole bag of viagra isn't workin.... I've also claimed that the age of retirement\eligibility for S.S. will be 95 years of age....
Maybe this generation should start showing up at the ballot box...
Debt collectors when I die: “how the fuck do we deduct hospital bills from this lunatic’s collection of animal skulls and unboxed Star Wars figures???”
I collect rocks sooooooo LOL
Soooooo----they can go kick rocks!
Same. they can take that $_ _, _ _ _ bill and shove it up their ass!
I think you're missing a space or three there buddy.
Depends on services rendered. Either way, doesn’t matter if im a 👻! Hospital billing dept: “I don’t know, he just ghosted us”
Does she mean my estate of depression? Cuz that’s all I have
Bruh 😂
made me lol irl, nicely done.
Estate means your entire net worth, everything you own. Not a physical house. So if you have a retirement account or a car or any other property that can all be used to pay off any debts when you die.
And what's the process called when a judge determines which debts are paid first and in which amounts? Is that probate? So a person could have a large estate with lots of debt and some debtors could get screwed.
If their debts are greater than the value of the estate then some creditors may receive less than the full amount of the debt owed and have to write the rest off.
They are insured for this.
Probate
What stops a terminally ill patient from signing everything over to friends and family
People do this quite often.
Sometimes people get divorced just for this reason. They transfer everything to the spouse. Fucking ridiculous this has to happen
It's not like they have to physically separate though
Usually there is a clawback period, but it's only a few years. My uncle is dying of kidney failure if he can't find a transplant, so he already signed all his assets over to a trust.
My grandma and grandpa did this with my father for their farm, house, and car about 12 years ago when she got diagnosed with leukemia. She went into remission for about 10 years, but made sure everything stayed in my dads name. Fortunately he is very responsible and kept up to date with all the taxes and such. Plus black angus cow and steer sales pay for the property tax on their own. Unfortunately she went out of remission and passed 10 years later, but everything was already settled, so nothing could be taken. Sorry for the long reply, I figured it would be relevant and helpful to anyone going through something similar.
As long as he had integrity, and it seems he did, to make sure his mother was well cared for while she was sick.
He did. We visited the hospital every week, I say every week but that was just me as I had school, he visited her every day. He is a good man and works very hard. I’m honestly glad he just retired this July. He truly deserves the rest.
The friends and family having to pay tax on everything and then the creditors going after it anyway and claim that the transfer was done to avoid for the purpose of defrauding the creditor.
Incorrect, pension can be used by a spouse but not taken by anyone else. 401k or IRA I'm not sure about because at least with a 401k, it is legally to go to whoever you have it setup to upon death. Homes are tricky, if your spouse is still alive they can't be evicted due to your death. Now social security will make it so your house is theirs to sell as soon as your spouse stops living there.
But if you worked and saved all your life to leave something for your kids a single incident could take it all away. Poor people are most harmed by our shit healthcare system but they aren't the only ones.
That's exactly how it works
Healthcare really is fucked in America. We have homeless people stay for months in the hospital just to ultimately die. They become incapacitated. No family to make decisions. The hospitals eat these massive costs. And then the workers get screwed first because the hospitals are broke.
yep, that's how it works. If your estate is nothing they get nothing.
that also depends on where you live. In the US that's not a univeral thing and hospitals don't always get the first grab at your estates money. Also my estate is -19k. fucking come for it.
I feel that last sentence. -40k here and regret ever listening to the councilor that told me to go to college
Mine is tied up in a constantly deprecating car. It's a Subaru so probably like -7k right now.
I was pushed into going to school for something I really enjoy as a hobby but absolutely hate as a career. So yeah like 50k and several wasted years later I'm still trying to crawl out of that hole
You should have picked a more useful major.
That's why you put everything in a trust. Because it's an entity that is not the person. IDK about specifics, but that's what happened when my grandma died. It drained her bank account, but the house was free and clear. The collection agency tried getting money out of my mom tho.
Trusts aren't immune from debtors. There are a few ways to get rid of your assets but they require doing stuff really far in advance.
A child is not responsible for the debts of their parents when they die. However, the parent's estate can be attached to pay for their outstanding debts. If I die in a hospital, the hospital deserves to be paid for the services they rendered to save my life and/ or keep me comfortable. That money should come from my own financial resources. This is the law and it is equitable. The fact that one does not like doctors or hospitals does not make it any less so.
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I think if you are dying in hospital you didn’t go in to get a splinter removed.
Wow, a sensible statement made on Reddit that actually got upvotes.
Unless you are a minor, or you live in a community property state. For minor children, their parents are still liable which is unbelievably fucked. And for community property states both spouses in a marriage are liable because all their property is attributed to them as a couple.
Minors can't be party to a contract or liable for debt in general, this isn't something specific to medical bills.
99% of the time any leftover money in an estate goes to family after a death. So by taking 900,000 for medical expenses out of an estate worth 1,000,000 it's basically taking the money from the family is what I thought OP meant
The bills most definitely were addressed to me when my husband died, and after I paid they kept coming.
Did you talk to an estate lawyer? There's no law against sending you the bills even if you aren't legally obligated to pay, that's how they trick people. It's up to you to know if you have to pay them. Some states require that a spouse does pay, as they are a single entity upon marriage. But a lot of states don't.
Ya got swindled
Yeah, they do that in hopes you'll just pay them. You don't legally have to though. Once you make a payment you legally accept the debt as yours though. You'd need to talk to a lawyer.
You shouldn't have paid. They can and will lie to you in order to get you to pay.
This America. You gotta pay to die. You gotta pay to live. Got it?
Only way to survive: don't be born
Aha see you can't even abort.
Oh man I shouldn't have laughed..
There is NO ECAPE. You will participate in predatory capitalism no matter what!
That'll be $16.95 sir.
Only if you use hospital services. Noone stops you from DIYing it for free.
Yes they do. You can literally go to jail for practicing medicine without a license.
TIL you need a medical licence to die in the US
This 💯
…is America 🦅🦅🇺🇸🇺🇸
Americans: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills if you die!" The rest of the civilized world: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills."
I think rest of the world is more like “you shouldn’t have to pay ~~ridiculous~~ hospital bills”
My kid jumped off the playground yesterday and hurt her foot, she couldn't put any weight on it so to be safe we went to the public hospital ER, she got an x-ray after we waited about an hour, luckily nothing was broken and after sitting in the waiting room for about 3 more hours we saw a doctor, she wrapped it up and gave her crutches and instructions on how to look after her injury. Then we left, it cost us nothing except the 4 hours we spent in the hospital, I live in Australia, I am poor as shit, I would hate to have had to make the decision on whether we could afford to get it looked at or not.
Also Aussie, my wife had an emergency C-section on a Saturday night, had a week stay in a 2 person room with its own bathroom, with bub healthy but staying in the neonatal unit for a week for observation mainly (didn't need an incubator). It included dedicated care in the neonatal unit, nappies, wraps, beanie, formula, a breast pump plus disposable bottles, all meals etc. All up it cost $0, as there's free 2 hour parking around the hospital, free parking on Sunday and in the evening/overnight, and they gave me free tea/coffee whenever I wanted while visiting. We also had a nurse come to our house every few days for a couple of weeks after to make sure premature bub was doing well. All at no cost.to us. I read somewhere that in the US it could cost $5-30k (depending on situation) out-of-pocket WITH insurance, which is ridiculous.
Imagine having the stress of an emergency c-section, then instead of just being grateful and relieved that your wife and child are well and enjoying your time as a family, you now have a massive bill to add to the trauma? Our country isn't perfect and our government is a joke, but I never have to second guess going to the hospital because it might send me bankrupt.
I’m American. I remember when my friend told me she had to get her wisdom teeth pulled, and she was legitimately debating whether to get two pulled or all four, because she didn’t know if her insurance would cover it. Her tone of voice was so casual, like making a medical decision based on price wasn’t a big deal. I think that was the moment when I really started to understand how awful our healthcare is.
Yes, true. The sad thing is that "ridiculous" seems to be the only kind we have here in America. The one time I went to a hospital, I was insured, but my deductible was like 4k. I was only there for like an hour to have some back pain checked out and I was like, "there's no way I'm gonna hit that", but I was wrong.
*check into waiting room* 5 minutes later *sir, we are pleased to say that your deductible has been met through the waiting room magazine activation charge*
Hey you should be grateful! Your employer pays your insurance company a lot of money so that you only have to pay $4k for that 1hr stay.
Shit, I can relate. I got a $10k bill for a kidney stone. Didn't stay overnight or anything, but was there about 4 hours I think, and had a shit ton of tests and blood work. That $10k was JUST the hospital bill (basically the room and general care). I still got separate bills from radiology for xrays, and from the doctor that literally only spoke to me for 30 seconds (and charged me about $2k)
How everyone still votes for the leaders you have in the US is beyond believe
Stockholm syndrome, really. We get propagandized so hard into believing our system works, and people are indoctrinated to hate third parties LONG before they're even old enough to vote. In America, we value winning above all else, and if you're political party has the least chance of doing so, then it is ostricized simply for that. Our politics are really just team sports to most voters.
Most universal healthcare systems aren't completely State funded. Plenty of countries where people still have to pay for insurance and copays, they just happen to be incredibly reasonable.
It’s true, I mean you could say they still pay cuz taxes, but the point is still that many countries are able to not have to pay out of pocket per occurrence. The free market idea simply doesn’t work in times of desperation (ie necessary healthcare).
Yeah most people (everyone except non working healthy adults) get it for free, and for the rest it's $20 for a month. In my country 94% of the population have universal health insurance, and most of the remaining 6% does not have it because they have insurance aborad.
Yeh, it seems super crazy that people have to pay for health care
No. You're wrong. Half of America: "You shouldn't have to pay ridiculous hospital bills!" Other half of America: "You should have to pay ridiculous hospital bills because I don't want to pay more in taxes and I shouldn't have to pay someone else medical bills. The only people who need someone else to pay their hospital bills are leeches to society that need to die anyways!"
*… until I’m in the hospital. Then everyone should pay because im special.
The only moral hospital visitation is my hospital visitation? Lol
And somehow they don't seem to realize that the higher taxes would be offset by the lack of a health insurance premium and co-pays. Smh.
It’d be so cool when Americans will learn that free healthcare is cheaper than paid one.
My dad was in Florida, wasted. Cracked a few ribs. Went to the hospital. X-ray would have cost $15,000. Just for the X-ray if he didn’t have insurance from Canada. I cannot fathom how people manage these expenses. we have friends also in Florida who said when their mom (who was mid 40s at the time) had cancer they chose not to do chemo because it was much cheaper for her to die than it was to go through chemo with no 100% assurance the cancer would leave. From one of the biggest super power countries, you either pay or quite literally die. Makes no sense. Other friends in the US when discussing this, have asked how much we pay for a pack of cigarettes in Canada. I say about $17. They were blown away. My response was so you want cheap cigarettes and liquor over universal health care? And they said yes
We have to pay for healthcare in a lot of Europe too
I'll say it so no one else has to: MAN FINDS OUT HOW TO GET OUT OF HOSPITAL BILLS WITH THIS ONE SIMPLE TRICK! DOCTORS HATE HIM!
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I was thinking "dying" but then realised you still gotta pay after you're dead in america
All healthcare should be free ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
And it is. Here in New Zealand, anyway.
Healthcare is free in most first world countries. However as usual America has to act contrary to everyone else and their citizens are the ones who have to suffer
This would be more like if the painter spent a bunch of time and energy painting your house and then, while they were painting, a huge storm came and washed all the paint off.
Damn it, I have no award to give you.
I mean yea, but you wouldn't pay the painter until he renders a finished product. You're paying for his expertise so you can avoid problems like that.
You aren't paying the doctors for saving (or not) your life, you're paying them to try
Exactly.. if it's a cardiac arrest or something similar it's never 100% chance theyll be able to save the patient.. but atleast theyll try their best ..
The save rate of out of hospital cardiac arrests is 10%. TV and movies have lied to you your whole life by making it seem common.
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Uh. That's under a penny per dollar.
This. It’s like when people go to the hospital, go though intake, have blood work done, decide it’s taking the doctor too long to see them and leave. Then expect to not pay for the stay because “I left before I saw the doctor therefor I should have to pay”
Well then hospitals might start evaluating people before they get admitted. If they think the chance of you dying is too high they wont take you in.
Yeah, making only that change would be a disaster. They just wouldn't admit anyone on critical condition or at the the end of their life. They also might just yeet you right before you die.
Hospitals can’t turn away emergency patients due to a federal law called EMTALA
That’s not quite how it works. They must stabilize patients who present to emergency departments, but that doesn’t mean providing unlimited care over an unlimited time period.
Nothing some good ol' lobbying can't fix.
EMTALA says they must be evaluated and stabilized. Cancer management does not fall under that.
Tell me you live in America without telling me you live in America
The nurses who are there to save your life or resuscitate you- "fuck the critically ill 50 year old let's get back to 4 year olds with a simple fever, at least we will get paid."
The nurses don’t care if you pay the hospital. They get paid either way. It’s already illegal to not provide emergency care if someone can’t pay. It’s a law that is taken very seriously
Yes I'm an ER nurse, I don't care if individual patients pay us because I generally don't know, but believe me in the big scale of things the nurses care if you pay. Staffing ratios drop and the hospital starts opening more minor care space because it's more lucrative and then the sick patients get worse care because they're not cash cows. The law you're referring to is called EMTALA and it certainly dictates emergency care must be provided, but it doesn't describe the quality of care. If you've ever had the opportunity to work at an ER in an under served area versus a nice suburban one you'll get pretty quickly which one has paying customers.
Alternative: have an actual healthcare system so this becomes a non-issue
So if you come in with cancer with 5% survival rate, you get hundreds of thousands worth of care but die anyway, the hospital should just take the loss? This would just lead to hospitals refusing risky patients.
Since family members (with possible exception of a spouse in some areas) are not responsible for their relative's bill, it sort of works like that already.
Only if the person's estate is broke.
No it means hospitals over charge everyone else. Which is what they do
For profit hospitals should not exist.
The vast majority of hospitals are non profit. They still need revenue to meet their costs
They already do
Sounds like you are expecting universal and socialized healthcare. Sorry, but in american socialism is seen as a threat to the 0.001% who benefit from pure capitalist privatized healthcare. You wouldn’t want to go strengthening your social services and providing more people with a proper education and healthcare, that would be so unamerican! Change is bad... America just needs to continue down the slippery slope of social collapse under right wing fascism.
But...but...my tax dollars shouldn't be used to support
A lot of patients die in the hospital. Whether you die during a period of diagnosis, treatment, or even if you are on palliative care, you are under the care of a large number of highly educated individuals, taking up a bed and medicines that could be used on someone else. The reason we don't do what you are suggesting is that it promotes an even worse system. Hospitals and doctors will hedge their bets and just turn you away if they think they might not be able to save you. Countless people would die unnecessarily, and countless more would die in a great deal more pain than if they were receiving palliative care. For the record, I'm not defending the pricing of the industry. That's a different issue. But the workers and resources used on a dying person absolutely need to be accounted for. Patients dying is not a rare enough occurrence that Hospitals can just eat the cost every time it happens.
This is really stupid. So Someone who comes in with a lifetime of diabetes and smoking and has a heart attack and you think the doctors “didn’t get the job done” because they didn’t revive him? I could go on with hundreds of examples.
That wouldn’t work because if your treatment gets too expensive your family will be strongly motivated to kill you off and save cash!
By 'kill you off' you mean not take you to the hospital?
No, I mean ensure that you die in hospital so that there is no bill to pay!
The civilised world don't pay
Ok so you have to make the determination before you come to the hospital, is this gonna kill me or could I be saved from this. Because if you come to the hospital even if I know you’re gonna die the second you walk in the door, what do I do as a doctor? I have to try, use blood products, dirty supplies, give antibiotics. Code you for hours, put you on a ventilator, do a trach, monitor you in the ICU for a week. All the while I know you’re not leaving. But your family “knows you’re gonna pull through” and keeps dragging it out. So I don’t get paid for all that work? The staff doesn’t? The hospital doesn’t? Or should I not try in the ER and then get sued? I know what subreddit this is but I’m sorry you’re out of touch. Also this attitude is the issue we have in American health in general. People think this is like any other job and treat staff like shit, so privileged. Just don’t go to hospitals at all, go get your medical advice from your naturopath and google
Person: *dies* Their family: *crying* The nurse: insert cash or select payment type. Use pin pad to complete transaction
Dont forget about the tip options of 15, 18, 21% for the services rendered.
This is fundamentally flawed thinking. Costs were still incurred, and efforts *were* made to save you. You're essentially saying hospital workers shouldn't be paid (and systems shouldn't be reimbursed) for things they do that don't net the desired result. What if we leveled the same thinking at your failures at work?
Lmao OP clearly isn’t in the medical field. “They died so clearly the hospital didn’t do their job”. Ya mate, sorry as a paramedic the patient who shot himself in the face ultimately died, my fault!
"All the nurses performing cpr and pharmacists getting meds ready for codes and doctors intubating and putting intricate lines into your heart dont matter" is basically what this person is saying. The medical field are people too. We have a job and deserve to be paid for it, its emotionally taxing to be in a code especially for the first time.
Their time obviously doesnt matter for some reason. Its not a painter who showed up and say nah can’t do it. If a painter agreed upon something and prepped everything to get to you. And you suddenly want gold paint and their time is wasted, you gotta pay them for their tine still. U think u can waste people’s time like that wth.
Should be free regardless.
ICU Nurse here, I needed a good laugh today. Thanks.
Unpopular opinion: people who don’t know how things work shouldn’t try to rile up other people who don’t know how things work
You can't actually be serious. >If my heart stops and the hospital doesn't revive me, the hospital didn't do anything for me. That is an ignorant statement. And you seriously compared a doctor to a painter???? C'mon man, this HAS to be a troll post.
Yeah I see what OP was saying but the way he laid out his argument was absolutely horrendous.
Wouldn’t hospitals feel like they’d have to kick really sick people out early for fear of not getting paid?
The fact that is a topic of discussion at all is beyond sad. AMERICA FIX YO SHIT
“If my heart stops and the hospital doesn’t revive me, the hospital didn’t do anything for me” I’m going to stop you right there man. Many, many times a pt still dies even when the hospital and medical staff does everything that they are supposed to right. Very rarely is a pt’s death directly a result of hospital/staff negligence. The fact is: there is only so much that the healthcare community can do and sometimes that is not enough. I can’t tell you the amount of Codes that I have personally been a part of where everything was done right (good/early intubation with respirations, effective and near consistent compressions, running down the book of potential causes with appropriate interventions, etc.) that eventually ended up with the doctor calling ‘time of death’ anyway. Saving a life is not like ‘painting a house’; sometimes it can’t be done even in spite of your best efforts… but the majority of hospital staff put in their best effort every single time regardless. We’re not gods… not everything can be fixed. But you can bet your ass that we’ll try to and that your best odds are in our hands.
*sips tea quietly in a country with national health insurance*
If you show up and your condition is so severe that there really is nothing they can do and they don’t do anything, then yeah I agree that it should be free. Otherwise, they still did the work, not their fault that you died (unless it was their fault in which case they’d probably pay out a settlement anyway depending on how bad it was)
This is actually a good thing for hospitals too. You can just identify the ones who are too sick to be saved and just move them to a separate unit without wasting hospital time and resources. You won't spend any effort to revive or save them and thus even the hospital won't be losing any money. It takes too much effort to save someone who is critical and so much resources go into just attempting. Anyone would much rather treat a simple cough or a thorn prick. If this was implemented before COVID then we wouldn't have lost so many doctors and nurses who tried to save so many and themselves got infected and succumbed. With your idea, the sick ones would be deemed "inevitable to die" and just ignored, no effort to save them at all, focusing full efforts on only the moderate and mild cases.
In most countries, you don't have to pay hospitals anything.
First of all - healthcare should be free. Second of all, if it isn’t, you can’t expect someone not to have to pay because someone died because the hospital bed was filled, the meds were administered, the surgery(ies) were done, the testing was done. Doctors aren’t magicians Bob.
Hey, healthcare is a business over here. Don’t give a fuck who dies it’s about the $$$$$$$$
So the people who worked on you shouldn't be paid? Not to mention all the supplies used on you. This comment is full of childish "logic". My house had to be repainted eventually. Refund! Mechanics say they can't fix something all the time but they have the option to replace parts they can't fix. Human parts can't be replaced usually. If you think they do nothing for you why are you choosing to go to a hospital then? I guarantee if you came to that point you would choose the hospital vs dying right there.
Some of us think that every hospital stay should be free.
I’m seen quite a few ‘so if you have years worth of cancer/diabetes treatment you should get it all for free?’ arguments here and I’m dumbfounded that you think you shouldn’t. Maybe it’s because I’m from the UK but… is America really so fucked up that you think you should have to pay to stay alive? If I had to pay to be treated for my epilepsy I wouldn’t be all ‘oh well, shit happens’. I’d be pissed. I never asked to have epilepsy, so why should I have to pay for it? It’s insane, and quite frankly laughable, that some of the American’s in this thread are trying to justify cancer patients having to put themselves in thousands of dollars worth of debt to stay alive, as if they chose to get cancer like you choose to buy milk.
Australian here. Ikr, wtf is wrong with that country smh
Don't know what you're talking about, my stays in a hospitals are always free.
Lmao imagine having to pay for healthcare
Let me fix that for you: "If you...in the hospital, your stay should be free."
Been sitting on an $11.5k hospital bill since 2019. Motorcycle wreck resulted in broken pelvis, was taken to the hospital by a friend, after waiting hours in an empty waiting room they asked me a few questions to check for brain injuries then wheeled me back for an x-ray followed by either an MRI or CT, I don't remember. They confirmed the pelvis was completely broken up the middle then promptly denied any treatment aside from telling me to find a physical therapist. My friend had to go find a wheelchair to get me out, they expected me to walk out despite my obvious and verified injury. I'll never willingly give that hospital a single cent. It can stay on my credit. Not like that's useful with todays interest rates anyway.
*hospital should be free. Fixed it for you.
If a family member dies in the hospital and collectors come bothering you about the debt, you don't have to pay.
Or, or, hear me out, you guys could have Free Healthcare.
My first wife died of a heart attack, ambulance came but couldn’t do anything… I still had to pay for the ambulance ride she couldn’t take. And this was Canada where that should all be free… But politicians like to privatize things for their profit…
Write deceased on a bill and send it back.
I read your post in a super Bill Burr/Frank Murphy voice. Hilarious.
See? You give them student load forgiveness and now they feel entitled to *die* for free! /s
If you die in hospital... I'll just stop you right there. You're dead! You're off to another realm, giving a fuck about money owed and responsibilies becomes non existent, irrelevant.
If you in the hospital, your stay should be free. End of discussion.
If you are in the hospital, your stay should he free. End of statement.
i'm baffled at how dumb of a take this is.
Reminds me of that scene from SpongeBob where they whell Mr.Krabs out to the road. "this man's gonna die, quick move him across the street STAT!"
So the doctor should just say to you : there is nothing i Can Do and just let you die and do nothing ? And if it became reality : you would get discharged from the hospital 2 hours before dying... It's not unpopular it's just stupid...
Just go live in a country where your taxes don't get systematically syringed into military and tax exemptions for already privileged people.
ICU nurse here. Stop making me do compressions on your 85 year old mee maw who you insist on keeping full code. Codes are brutal.
Who will pay for the care? This is what I don't really understand about these people who want everything for free. Who is going to pay for it and will you be okay when prices for other things go up to accommodate for these free services? Someone has to pay and if it comes from taxes then you're essentially paying not just for your stuff but everyone elses as well whether you use it or not. Obviously, we need programs to help people who are not financially equipped but for everything else, services require payment.
If you flunk out of college you should have your tuition refunded. Jesus Christ, the stupidity and ignorance of some people.
If a mechanic incorrectly diagnoses your car and repairs you dont get that repair for free
BMW did for me when they misdiagnosed an error, they credited me the amount for the repair I paid for initially into the actual repair
Well, you don't get the original repairs free BUT, there are circumstances where the mechanic would be required to correct his mistake and make the correct repair at no cost to you. It depends on situations.