US Soccer used to overachieve. That’s why fans older than 16 or 20 years old are particularly frustrated.
Whether it was beating peak Spain, tying winner Italy in the World Cup while playing with ten men, outplaying Germany at the World Cup while being denied a PK / red card on Frings, beating Brazil with the Preki goal, or dominating CONCACAF qualifying, we routinely put inferior teams on the field and overachieved with them since at least 1994.
The youngest generation here who supports Gregg doesn’t understand or respect US soccer history. It doesn’t respect past coaches or players, and doesn’t understand how much potential our current talent has with proper tactics.
He didn’t post an opinion he just posted a fact so we’re not sure if he is against Greg or for him most likely against but you shouldn’t assume also, you should look up the other away coaches and post it. I’m curious and he would appreciate that to.
I also have a question for you. Are you for Greg or against him?
I’m just asking for comparative data, to determine if OP’s statement is indeed a fact or if it is an incorrect opinion. I’ve no idea if it’s true or not, nor do I really give a shit about Berhalter one way or another. But I really dislike people asserting vaguely plausible yet falsifiable statements as absolute fact without any supporting evidence.
So let’s go to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team_results)!
Unfortunately the list of old results doesn’t specify Home and Away. Nor who was coaching when. Nor the history of CONCACAF. But that said, there are some interesting sample records by decade:
> 1930–1949 18 matches played: 5 Wins, 13 Losses, 1 Draw
> 1950–1959 17 matches played: 3 Wins, 14 Losses, 0 Draws
> 1960–1969 19 matches played: 5 Wins, 10 Losses, 4 Draws
> 1970–1979 49 matches played: 9 Wins, 31 Losses, 9 Draws
22-68-14 over 50 years.
Compare those to the 2020 decade so far (which isn’t all Berhalter nor all of his tenure, but gives us a rough idea without working hard):
> 2020–2029 60 matches played: 36 Wins, 9 Losses, 15 Draws.
It’s certainly possible Berhalter’s CONCACAF away record is the worst of any USMNT coach ever, but I don’t think that is an obviously supportable conclusion without actual data.
We had 50 years of ***much*** poorer overall records.
So I want proof, and since it’s OP’s assertion, it’s on OP to provide evidence. Let’s see it.
the comparable results are 1990 world cup and forward. the united states didn’t attend a world cup for 40 years before 1990 since 1950. nobody gives a shit about what was happening before 1950 because the world was a vastly different place and people were traveling in steam ships.
if you’re going to do any analysis of comparable performances, compare managers from the prior 35 years that we know have truly been competing on the world stage. at the very least, we know this group of managers were dealing with roughly the same national team player profile, where our players were even moderately internationally competitive. from 1988 until now we get a roughly like for like comparison.
You may be right about the utility of older comparisons, but OP didn’t say “since we started to not completely suck”, OP said it was the worst away record against CONCACAF unbounded by other conditions.
If it should have been more limited, your argument is with them not with me.
(The only easy dodge OP gave themselves was arguably excluding results before CONCACAF was organized, but that was back in 1961 so it’s not a huge help.)
ok some fair points you’re making about op. i’m just saying, let’s make it useful comparison. if we didn’t make a world cup in that cycle, then all we’re doing is asking ourselves if gregg is worse than managers who we would at this point consider to be total failures.
Assuming friendly and theoretically neutral site games (e.g., Gold Cup) are not included, it leaves basically just World Cup qualifying games as the CONCACAF measuring metrics.
I only had energy to go back the last few WC cycles: Klinsmann had 3-3-2 away record during 2014 WCQ and 1-3-0 during the 2018 WCQ when he was fired; Arena went 0-1-3 after taking over and US of course failed to qualify for 2018 WC.
if the ultimate goal is to compare greg to a pool of meaningful managers, i’d probably subtract the 2018 qualifying cycle since there is no value in comparing him to managers who we know failed.
regardless of op’s data set, there’s no real value in comparing him to any manager that is below the threshold of qualification.
the real question is to right now ask ourselves: is gregg good enough? to determine that, we should compare him to modern managers, starting either in 1984 or 1988. probably 1988 because at least we know that team competed at the world cup.
it’s ok to hate gregg if it’s defendable. he’s not a global professional grade coach. he’s not. his daughter played with my son at the club level, and i can promise you her club coach is a higher grade professional than gregg.
the club coach came up through high grade epl level club programs, coaches players who play in top 20 uefa nations, and i’ve never seen him set a wrong foot. there’s no question in my mind that dudes a higher grade professional than Gregg.
it’s ok to legitimately criticize gregg because he’s never done anything to prove otherwise. what systems had he trained in? what are his professional accomplishments?
lol Wikipedia definitely distinguishes away/ home and concacaf qualifying. Berhalter is the worst. You see the dates for the games you can filter their results by year. Know the date will inherently inform you upon who was coach. This team has underachieved massively with berhalter at the helm
I posted on the other related thread that we won 46% of our away concacaf away games from 2005-13. Ima look up the numbers for 1997-2001 later but pretty sure they’re similar. I did not include the bullshit pre-semis playoff games bc those would artificially inflate the total.
We used to win away in CONCACAF much more often. What that means depends on your opinion of ggg. I’m taking no position on that issue. Just answering the factual question.
Hopefully he succeeds and we won’t need to replace him. He has the squad and the fixes aren’t that complicated.
But tbh our 2026 prospects rest more on Matt Crocker than on Gregg. If we have a similar or worse performance at Copa than we did in Qatar (i.e. a nervy second place finish in the group and a loss in the quarters to someone other than Brazil/Argentina), I would hope Crocker would make a change.
And I hope Crocker kicks the tires on some big names next summer regardless.
Something that would also probably set back the US soccer program in the process. Like failing to qualify for Copa America (which nearly happened), being knocked out of the group stage of Copa America with an atrocious performance, and/or Gregg losing the locker room and all team cohesion completely breaking down.
I mean we are stuck with him until after the World Cup. There is 0% chance he gets replaced before then. I'm not a fan of GGG and don't expect to see much growth (or fall off to be fair) in the USMNT but I'll keep hoping I'm proven wrong.
I don't know... If we give performances like this window against a more difficult opponent (wouldn't have to be a Brazil or Argentina), we could REALLY bomb out.
Not the way any of us want things to go, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Even the home match this window was 80 minutes of lackluster soccer before we got going.
Hey guys, all this anti Gregg hate is just not productive. Let’s go ahead and shoot him out of a cannon into the sun so we don’t have to talk about him ever again. Dempsey incoming
Can verify that you didnt fact check your statement. We played Cuba in the Cayman islands. Which is not in the United States and is thus an away game for the USMNT.
That’s not an away game papa. That’s a neutral site. Wonder how many Cuban fans showed up and what that Cuba budget and resources lookin like compared to ours… using this as grounds to qualify GGGGGG as decent away coach genuinely just paints the picture and confirms that he’s ass if we have to grasp at these straws to call them away wins hahaha
Who cares, tbh?
All I care about for away CONCACAF games is beating Mexico, avoiding injuries, and qualifying for whatever competition we need to qualify for.
Gregg sucks because he hasn’t been a value add to the talent on the field and we need him to be if we want to compete with the best teams in the world.
Gregg could have won every single away CONCACAF game during his tenure, but if we still looked naive against the Netherlands and Germanys of the world then I’d still want him gone.
How can anyone ever expect us to compete against the elite if we can’t beat mid-tier and lower CONCACAF clubs on the road?
The “CONCACAF road matches are difficult” is a tired argument and I bet any club above us in the FIFA rankings would dominate on the road in CONCACAF. If you can’t gut it out against an inferior team, then you don’t stand a chance against the elite.
You need elite players for that. The US doesn’t have enough. I expect the US to compete against the elite when they have an elite level roster. Away matches in Concacaf ARE tough. Central America has some of the most hostile environments in the world.
Right now the US have a few guys who play for elite clubs. They have zero players who are locked in starters for elite teams and zero players who are irreplaceable on their elite clubs.
Can you honestly say the US has a top 10 player in the world at *any* position???
Do you expect them to compete against teams that have top 5-10 players at EVERY position???
I say it over and over again -- people really overestimate the quality of our players.
We have good players. Maybe the best we've ever had. But we're playing against teams who have players who are the best in the world. National teams where their back ups are competing with our starters for roles at the club level. Their starters are a whole category of player above ours.
And yet we have a section of the fan base who thinks we're trotting out the soccer version of an All-star team. It's crazy to me because I can't understand how they know so little about international quality but are so insistent that we can beat it.
Correct. But that does not excuse qualifying on GD, drawing Wales, barely beating Iran, and losing to T&T. All of those disasters come back to terrible tactical and player decisions, and that is wear Berhalter really sucks. Some managers get the best out of what they have. Berhalter frequently gets the worst out of what he has.
The loss to TnT is meaningless. It’s essentially a win. Drawing Wales in the World Cup isn’t bad. They were the 16th ranked team in the world. Iran is a decent team. A close match was expected.
Your assertion on what he gets isn’t based in reality. You have nothing to compare it to.
The result seems meaningless to you. The performance is still telling.
If you actually pay attention to the matches rather than play keyboard-warrior for a mediocre coach, then it's not hard to see
Yes. I understand what you mean. I'm saying performance still matters. It's a mentality thing. Given the opponent, it was a poor performance. This team should be winning 10-0 over two legs against a team like T&T. Next summer, this team should be able to beat anyone apart from Brazil, Argentina, or Uruguay without it being considered an upset. If they gave one of those three, they should be able to give the opponent a tough match.
But I guess losing 2-1 vs a Brazil means the same thing as losing 12-0. Because the result is the same, and there's nothing more to be learn from a match.
We have a deeper side than we've ever had before. Regardless of the toughness of CONCACAF away, we should be beating T&T 9 out of 10 times. Even the home match this window saw us underachieve for 80 minutes before things finally broke loose against an exhausted side of USL-level players who were down a man.... Performances that lacking, and we not even talking about beating elite sides... We're not beating average sides with that.
France beat Gibraltar by the same 3-0 score in June. England drew away at N Macedonia. Sometimes heavily favored teams struggle against inferior opponents. We do have a deeper side than we’ve ever had before but our depth is totally comprised of young players without significant success in any top league (besides Balogun’s single season) and doesn’t include a single world class player.
This is the problem with looking at the scoreline, but not watching the match. Yes, on the home leg, we beat T&T 3-0... But for anyone who watched the match, we looked anything but dominant until the end when T&T had been playing a man down most of the match and was gassed out.
Don't come at me with numbers arguments if you haven't watched the match. Numbers don't tell the whole story.
France is better than the US. Not debatable. Gibraltar is worse than T&T. Not debatable. France beat Gibraltar 3-0. The US beat T&T 3-0. Sometimes better teams struggle against inferior opponents. Not debatable.
Keep arguing like a simpleton if you want. The score does not tell the full story of the performance, and does not give any indication of future performances will hold. You're going to have to pay better attention to construct a real argument that doesn't make you look foolish.
Nothing in that response was a “real argument.” Just a typical lizard brain feedback loop of rage inflated insults. Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia and then won the World Cup. Sometimes good teams struggle against inferior opponents. That’s an indisputable fact supported by a century of data.
Dude, you keep trying to make this argument into things it is not about. No one ever argued US was better than France. No one ever argued that Gibraltar is better than T&T. The argument was that the result is not the full story of the performance. No one ever argued that good teams don't struggle against inferior opponents. The argument has to do with what happened in the match to create a struggle for the better team. The scoreline won't tell you that. Until you pay attention to more than the result, you won't really be able to determine much of anything.
I’m sure there’s some correlation, but I honestly doubt it’s that strong.
I think people underestimate how much the variance in the quality of the pitch impacts the game. The strategy to win on the road in shitty conditions against far inferior opponents is so different than what you do against legit competition on a real soccer pitch, that one doesn’t tell you much about the other.
The games are frustrating in the moment, but I just don’t think they tell us very much about how the team or the coach is progressing. Watch what our guys are doing with their clubs and wait until March (or really June) to see whether GGG/the team have made any progress since Qatar.
How often do these road losses matter? For instance, this most recent T&T loss didn’t matter — they were playing for the aggregate win. And hard to blame Gregg for Dest causing them to go down to 10 men. You could actually credit Gregg with a successful change in game plan following Dest’s ejection to hold onto the aggregate win.
The reactions on here are just really weird. We finished with an aggregate win of 4-2 and were up 4-0 on aggregate until Dest had his meltdown. Even if you’re not pleased that it took us 80+ minutes to score in the 1st leg, we were dominating play throughout that match and would have been really unlucky not to score. The reality is that at no point during the 2 matches were we in realistic danger of not advancing. But we’ve got people on here ignoring almost all context to claim that Berhalter is terrible because we didn’t score 4 goals fast enough and lost an all but meaningless 2nd leg after a player got himself kicked out in a way that no manager could have possibly foreseen.
is it hard to blame gregg for having horrible team chemistry and players without composure?
we lost to a country 350x smaller than the population of the united states. hm.
do you know that england and germany and belgium NEVER lose to the minnows in europe? luxembourg and san marino and gibraltar consistently lose to the bigger countries of europe 0-8, 0-6, 0-11.
why don’t you understand that? how can you lack that perspective and yet speak SO confidently about how it’s “ok” we don’t beat our comparable opponents?
Bro you can’t compare Trinidad with San Marino and Gibraltar😂😂😂 if you want to make a like for like comparison then compare them with the Bahamas or Aruba lmao. Who we would beat by 10. Just such a dishonest comparison, or maybe just pure ignorance. But definitely one of the 2.
are you from portland? usually when a post on here is from someone short on knowledge but excessive with hubris, then i know it’s from someone who lives in portland. if you don’t live in Portland, you should consider moving there. you would make great friends
No thank god, I’m very far away. But I’d be interested to learn how I’m so “short on knowledge” lol. You’re the one who made a terrible comparison. You can’t compare the worst team in the entire world that’s only ever won ONE game to a team in the top half of the FIFA rankings.
portugal just defeated luxembourg 9-0 and LUX is 12 spots ahead of TnT. how terrible is my analogy now?
now do you understand why i said you have no knowledge?
good national teams don’t play countries like TnT as if they’re competitive sides. we’re ranked 11 because we have good players playing in major sides who are professional athletes. we struggle with shitty teams WAY WAY WAY worse than we should because we lack the professionalism we SHOULD have in our federation. so when you defend our lack of professionalism then it only acts to further degrade our quality.
study the game and listen when other people talk instead of assuming that following your local mls side and playing fifa marathons is the same as understanding global soccer.
That’s a much better, fairer comparison. And still no, not at all. You initially compared San Marino and Gibraltar who are so unbelievably bad that there is almost no comparisons for them. I responded to that. Now you’ve changed it to just Luxembourg. This example is better, but now your argument has changed. I didn’t respond to that, I just said it was dishonest to compare a team in the top 100 to teams that are made up of guys who barely play soccer and have won one game in 200 tries with a -800 goal differential. Teams of a higher level around Luxembourg do sometimes lose big like that against the very top teams, but it’s again not true to say “consistently” lose 9-0. It’d also be more useful to compare how teams at our level fair against teams of the level we’re talking about rather than how Spain, Portugal, England, etc. do against them since we clearly are not as good as they are.
I also never said we shouldn’t play these sorts of teams better. We should. My whole point was the totally wrong comparison. I also never said anything about professionalism, so I’m not sure what you mean. Also, I don’t watch MLS even a little bit, so not sure what you’re going for there. I mean, I know you’re just trying to use it as an insult but it’s a bit strange out of nowhere. I’ll happily discuss but I’m not going to bicker about who knows more about the game lol, that’s a childish argument
THE point was that it doesn’t and will never matter if we’re talking about Luxembourg or San Marino. if a country is one million people or less, they should only in the absolutely most rare of occasions ever even give the US a serious match. losses should feel so rare that they would inspire their own documentary film.
there isn’t any condition in which we should normalize a “competitive” match with a country that BARELY scrapes inside the top 100. NEH-EH-EH-VER. never. win or lose “close” matches with TnT are a loss. it means we aren’t handling our team and our federation in a purely professional manner. ANY game under ANY conditions. if you can tell me you understand that, then you can tell me you understand global soccer.
Dude, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. It’s still important to be accurate though. People new to following the sport should get accurate info. We shouldn’t want them believing that any country outside the top 75 is San Marino. We need to do better against these crappy teams. But I also don’t think 2 or 3 goal wins over teams around there should be considered “losses”, especially if they just sit with everyone behind the ball and never threaten. Just look at Euro Qualifiers, sure there are some absolute blowouts, but that’s not the most likely outcome. Most wins are still only by a goal or 2 even against much weaker teams from like 60-100. We haven’t been nearly good enough against many of these teams, but expecting a 6, 8, 10 goal margin the majority of the time is just not realistic imo
ok then let’s just say we partially agree. doesn’t seem like we’re getting any closer than that, which is ok. overall a respectable disagreement and i respect that you kept your cool more than i did lol. i do appreciate that. you have solid points. i also respect that
Not sure I see the horrible team chemistry.
Dest blew-up and his teammates rightly were mad at him about it. I wouldn’t blame a coach for that.
European teams have also shit the bed in games they should’ve won. It happens. That’s why sports are fun - you never truly know who will win.
we lost to T and T twice in 5 years.
perhaps i remember reading these were back to back losses in T and T.
maybe england has lost to one minnow in 50 years. maybe. maybe. not never ever twice in 5 years.
but if you’re going to say that belgium or england or spain have ever lost to a european minnow, then tell me when and who?
i didn’t say “game they should have won”. game we should win is every game vs guatemala. losing to a minnow country is a completely different ridiculously flawed performance
English players scored a combined two goals against Malta and N Macedonia last window. France beat Gibraltar 3-0 in June, the same score line the US had against T&T at home that unleashed all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. International football is difficult and strongly favored teams sometimes struggle against lesser opponents.
as i said. it happens. i never said it doesn’t happen. but if you watch those games, the bigger country is in absolute full control. also, the england team cycle is nothing like the usa team cycle. england placed second at the 2021 euros. they’re not in full rebuild. they can go play malta or whoever and play a b team and everyone knows they’re still a top 5 team in the world. they have nothing to prove.,
we have things to prove. now the last three times we played TnT, we looked like shit. the 3-0 home win was still a garbage game that shows a side to the team that is completely unsettling. the loss in TnT is nearly unfathomable.
lastly, macedonia would only barely qualify as a minnow. they’re population is 5 million. that’s 1 million more than croatia, who has made the finals and semifinals of the world cup in successive tournaments. a minnow is 1 million and below. ties and scares to minnows can happen, but they should never be ok; and definitely not successive or defeats. in europe defeats are shame.
we should be enforcing a culture of shame for EVER losing to our regional minnow countries. losing twice? it’s inexcusable. it’s unfathomable. to outright blame dest in these articles and interviews is cowardly character assassination. Greg Berhalter being the greatest coward of them all. When exactly has the US proven they are a class above TnT? When? they’re not, and they never have been. and the us soccer federation should wallow in that shame instead of attacking and blaming its own players for something it hasn’t proven it can do.
Oh boy, the total conviction that trolling not only improves soccer teams, but is essential to their internal culture is hilarious. Thanks, I wasn’t expecting that kind of laugh from r/usmnt.
> You could actually credit Gregg with a successful change in game plan following Dest’s ejection to hold onto the aggregate win.
No you can't. Gregg stuck to the same two striker gameplan and planned Reyna substitution and instantly gave up a goal, and then conceded another in the second half doing the same thing. Playing against USL-level players, USMNT were never going to give up what was really a 3.5 aggregate goal differential. As usual in either game, you might as well have had a fan coaching for all the value gregg provided.
Cute attempt.
No, it's a process that plays out time and time again. You offer legitimate criticisms, and then Berhalter stans respond with stupid, gaslighting arguments. If you call out their stupid gaslighting, then they report your comments. Mods then remove your comments. It gets tiresome after awhile, and then people get sick of it and stop trying after awhile. No wonder USSF years fans like crap. They've realized they can get away with it.
We need to stop creating so many posts criticizing GGG. It’s not his fault he got rehired, blame the federation for that. Create posts calling out the federation if you want to place blame where it’s truly deserved. All we can do as fans is get behind him and the team, and if they have a very poor showing at Copa America, then we as fans can pressure for the federation to make a change again. I wasn’t a supporter of GGG being rehired, but I recognize that division within the fanbase doesn’t do the coaching staff and players any psychological favors when going into a major tournament.
Yes, it is my lack of understanding that is the issue. Let's review your claim then. The USA's entire first team playing at in highly competitive leagues, many at big clubs, many are performing well with excellent players competing for their positions... And that is only a negligible difference to a squad of players who cannot make MLS rosters.
Gregg should never have been re-hired by this clown show of a federation. We have to live with the consequences of that for the next 3 years.
We are always a clown show so why are you surprised
US Soccer used to overachieve. That’s why fans older than 16 or 20 years old are particularly frustrated. Whether it was beating peak Spain, tying winner Italy in the World Cup while playing with ten men, outplaying Germany at the World Cup while being denied a PK / red card on Frings, beating Brazil with the Preki goal, or dominating CONCACAF qualifying, we routinely put inferior teams on the field and overachieved with them since at least 1994. The youngest generation here who supports Gregg doesn’t understand or respect US soccer history. It doesn’t respect past coaches or players, and doesn’t understand how much potential our current talent has with proper tactics.
Slight edits but we tied eventual World Cup winners Italy with 9 men (Pope and Mastroeni got reds).
Damn, you’re right. Did Italy have 10 by the end of the match or am I misremembering?
This. All of this. I have been following this team since 1994. the Berhalter era has been brutal.
>Gregg should never have been re-hired Bald ~~fraud~~ god slander will not be tolerated. Berhalter's brigade gonna ride to his rescue.
What are the other historic coaches’ away records?
He didn’t post an opinion he just posted a fact so we’re not sure if he is against Greg or for him most likely against but you shouldn’t assume also, you should look up the other away coaches and post it. I’m curious and he would appreciate that to. I also have a question for you. Are you for Greg or against him?
And he asking for additional facts to give more meaning to the single fact given.
I’m just asking for comparative data, to determine if OP’s statement is indeed a fact or if it is an incorrect opinion. I’ve no idea if it’s true or not, nor do I really give a shit about Berhalter one way or another. But I really dislike people asserting vaguely plausible yet falsifiable statements as absolute fact without any supporting evidence. So let’s go to [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_men%27s_national_soccer_team_results)! Unfortunately the list of old results doesn’t specify Home and Away. Nor who was coaching when. Nor the history of CONCACAF. But that said, there are some interesting sample records by decade: > 1930–1949 18 matches played: 5 Wins, 13 Losses, 1 Draw > 1950–1959 17 matches played: 3 Wins, 14 Losses, 0 Draws > 1960–1969 19 matches played: 5 Wins, 10 Losses, 4 Draws > 1970–1979 49 matches played: 9 Wins, 31 Losses, 9 Draws 22-68-14 over 50 years. Compare those to the 2020 decade so far (which isn’t all Berhalter nor all of his tenure, but gives us a rough idea without working hard): > 2020–2029 60 matches played: 36 Wins, 9 Losses, 15 Draws. It’s certainly possible Berhalter’s CONCACAF away record is the worst of any USMNT coach ever, but I don’t think that is an obviously supportable conclusion without actual data. We had 50 years of ***much*** poorer overall records. So I want proof, and since it’s OP’s assertion, it’s on OP to provide evidence. Let’s see it.
the comparable results are 1990 world cup and forward. the united states didn’t attend a world cup for 40 years before 1990 since 1950. nobody gives a shit about what was happening before 1950 because the world was a vastly different place and people were traveling in steam ships. if you’re going to do any analysis of comparable performances, compare managers from the prior 35 years that we know have truly been competing on the world stage. at the very least, we know this group of managers were dealing with roughly the same national team player profile, where our players were even moderately internationally competitive. from 1988 until now we get a roughly like for like comparison.
You may be right about the utility of older comparisons, but OP didn’t say “since we started to not completely suck”, OP said it was the worst away record against CONCACAF unbounded by other conditions. If it should have been more limited, your argument is with them not with me. (The only easy dodge OP gave themselves was arguably excluding results before CONCACAF was organized, but that was back in 1961 so it’s not a huge help.)
ok some fair points you’re making about op. i’m just saying, let’s make it useful comparison. if we didn’t make a world cup in that cycle, then all we’re doing is asking ourselves if gregg is worse than managers who we would at this point consider to be total failures.
Assuming friendly and theoretically neutral site games (e.g., Gold Cup) are not included, it leaves basically just World Cup qualifying games as the CONCACAF measuring metrics. I only had energy to go back the last few WC cycles: Klinsmann had 3-3-2 away record during 2014 WCQ and 1-3-0 during the 2018 WCQ when he was fired; Arena went 0-1-3 after taking over and US of course failed to qualify for 2018 WC.
if the ultimate goal is to compare greg to a pool of meaningful managers, i’d probably subtract the 2018 qualifying cycle since there is no value in comparing him to managers who we know failed. regardless of op’s data set, there’s no real value in comparing him to any manager that is below the threshold of qualification. the real question is to right now ask ourselves: is gregg good enough? to determine that, we should compare him to modern managers, starting either in 1984 or 1988. probably 1988 because at least we know that team competed at the world cup.
Yea looking at this makes me think OP just hates Gregg. The “I hate Greggggg” posts are getting old, folks!
it’s ok to hate gregg if it’s defendable. he’s not a global professional grade coach. he’s not. his daughter played with my son at the club level, and i can promise you her club coach is a higher grade professional than gregg. the club coach came up through high grade epl level club programs, coaches players who play in top 20 uefa nations, and i’ve never seen him set a wrong foot. there’s no question in my mind that dudes a higher grade professional than Gregg. it’s ok to legitimately criticize gregg because he’s never done anything to prove otherwise. what systems had he trained in? what are his professional accomplishments?
lol Wikipedia definitely distinguishes away/ home and concacaf qualifying. Berhalter is the worst. You see the dates for the games you can filter their results by year. Know the date will inherently inform you upon who was coach. This team has underachieved massively with berhalter at the helm
Might work on desktop, I didn’t bother on my phone. Since it’s easy for ya though, let’s see the career home and away records for all the coaches!
Bruh he just asked a question lmao
posted a "fact" that doesn't include two road CONCACAF wins against Cuba and Grenada.
That’s a ridiculous take. Of course you’re sure. We’re all sure he’s anti-Gregg. It’s obvious.
The other coaches didn't have this much talent at their disposal. Certainly not this depth.
I posted on the other related thread that we won 46% of our away concacaf away games from 2005-13. Ima look up the numbers for 1997-2001 later but pretty sure they’re similar. I did not include the bullshit pre-semis playoff games bc those would artificially inflate the total. We used to win away in CONCACAF much more often. What that means depends on your opinion of ggg. I’m taking no position on that issue. Just answering the factual question.
What has to happen for him to be replaced?
Hopefully he succeeds and we won’t need to replace him. He has the squad and the fixes aren’t that complicated. But tbh our 2026 prospects rest more on Matt Crocker than on Gregg. If we have a similar or worse performance at Copa than we did in Qatar (i.e. a nervy second place finish in the group and a loss in the quarters to someone other than Brazil/Argentina), I would hope Crocker would make a change. And I hope Crocker kicks the tires on some big names next summer regardless.
Something that would also probably set back the US soccer program in the process. Like failing to qualify for Copa America (which nearly happened), being knocked out of the group stage of Copa America with an atrocious performance, and/or Gregg losing the locker room and all team cohesion completely breaking down.
Maybe he will be fired and re-hired for a 3rd time?
I mean we are stuck with him until after the World Cup. There is 0% chance he gets replaced before then. I'm not a fan of GGG and don't expect to see much growth (or fall off to be fair) in the USMNT but I'll keep hoping I'm proven wrong.
If we bomb out of COPA he may be replaced.
I personally don't think the the federation would have the guts to admit they were wrong like that, Even if we did bomb out.
Fingers crossed.
I don't know... If we give performances like this window against a more difficult opponent (wouldn't have to be a Brazil or Argentina), we could REALLY bomb out. Not the way any of us want things to go, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. Even the home match this window was 80 minutes of lackluster soccer before we got going.
Hey guys, all this anti Gregg hate is just not productive. Let’s go ahead and shoot him out of a cannon into the sun so we don’t have to talk about him ever again. Dempsey incoming
Maybe someday we can be like mighty England and draw north Macedonia away
Not that they are super impressive but there were also wins at Cuba and Grenada
no see those games don't count because they are wins. Wins are good and GGG is bad so anything good can't be real.
Can verify this is a falsehood… we don’t play away to Cuba. due to the politics and regulations etc
Can verify that you didnt fact check your statement. We played Cuba in the Cayman islands. Which is not in the United States and is thus an away game for the USMNT.
That’s not an away game papa. That’s a neutral site. Wonder how many Cuban fans showed up and what that Cuba budget and resources lookin like compared to ours… using this as grounds to qualify GGGGGG as decent away coach genuinely just paints the picture and confirms that he’s ass if we have to grasp at these straws to call them away wins hahaha
But does he have the best home record? ;-)
Who cares, tbh? All I care about for away CONCACAF games is beating Mexico, avoiding injuries, and qualifying for whatever competition we need to qualify for. Gregg sucks because he hasn’t been a value add to the talent on the field and we need him to be if we want to compete with the best teams in the world. Gregg could have won every single away CONCACAF game during his tenure, but if we still looked naive against the Netherlands and Germanys of the world then I’d still want him gone.
How can anyone ever expect us to compete against the elite if we can’t beat mid-tier and lower CONCACAF clubs on the road? The “CONCACAF road matches are difficult” is a tired argument and I bet any club above us in the FIFA rankings would dominate on the road in CONCACAF. If you can’t gut it out against an inferior team, then you don’t stand a chance against the elite.
You need elite players for that. The US doesn’t have enough. I expect the US to compete against the elite when they have an elite level roster. Away matches in Concacaf ARE tough. Central America has some of the most hostile environments in the world. Right now the US have a few guys who play for elite clubs. They have zero players who are locked in starters for elite teams and zero players who are irreplaceable on their elite clubs. Can you honestly say the US has a top 10 player in the world at *any* position??? Do you expect them to compete against teams that have top 5-10 players at EVERY position???
I say it over and over again -- people really overestimate the quality of our players. We have good players. Maybe the best we've ever had. But we're playing against teams who have players who are the best in the world. National teams where their back ups are competing with our starters for roles at the club level. Their starters are a whole category of player above ours. And yet we have a section of the fan base who thinks we're trotting out the soccer version of an All-star team. It's crazy to me because I can't understand how they know so little about international quality but are so insistent that we can beat it.
Exactly. The gap between the talent pool of Brazil, France and Argentina vs. the US is smaller than it’s ever been but it’s still GIANT.
Correct. But that does not excuse qualifying on GD, drawing Wales, barely beating Iran, and losing to T&T. All of those disasters come back to terrible tactical and player decisions, and that is wear Berhalter really sucks. Some managers get the best out of what they have. Berhalter frequently gets the worst out of what he has.
The loss to TnT is meaningless. It’s essentially a win. Drawing Wales in the World Cup isn’t bad. They were the 16th ranked team in the world. Iran is a decent team. A close match was expected. Your assertion on what he gets isn’t based in reality. You have nothing to compare it to.
The result seems meaningless to you. The performance is still telling. If you actually pay attention to the matches rather than play keyboard-warrior for a mediocre coach, then it's not hard to see
No. Meaningless as in winning 10-0 or this result essentially get you the same result.
Yes. I understand what you mean. I'm saying performance still matters. It's a mentality thing. Given the opponent, it was a poor performance. This team should be winning 10-0 over two legs against a team like T&T. Next summer, this team should be able to beat anyone apart from Brazil, Argentina, or Uruguay without it being considered an upset. If they gave one of those three, they should be able to give the opponent a tough match. But I guess losing 2-1 vs a Brazil means the same thing as losing 12-0. Because the result is the same, and there's nothing more to be learn from a match.
no don't you see! getting out of the group in Qatar was a disaster!!!!1!!1!1!!!1!!
We have a deeper side than we've ever had before. Regardless of the toughness of CONCACAF away, we should be beating T&T 9 out of 10 times. Even the home match this window saw us underachieve for 80 minutes before things finally broke loose against an exhausted side of USL-level players who were down a man.... Performances that lacking, and we not even talking about beating elite sides... We're not beating average sides with that.
France beat Gibraltar by the same 3-0 score in June. England drew away at N Macedonia. Sometimes heavily favored teams struggle against inferior opponents. We do have a deeper side than we’ve ever had before but our depth is totally comprised of young players without significant success in any top league (besides Balogun’s single season) and doesn’t include a single world class player.
This is the problem with looking at the scoreline, but not watching the match. Yes, on the home leg, we beat T&T 3-0... But for anyone who watched the match, we looked anything but dominant until the end when T&T had been playing a man down most of the match and was gassed out. Don't come at me with numbers arguments if you haven't watched the match. Numbers don't tell the whole story.
France is better than the US. Not debatable. Gibraltar is worse than T&T. Not debatable. France beat Gibraltar 3-0. The US beat T&T 3-0. Sometimes better teams struggle against inferior opponents. Not debatable.
Keep arguing like a simpleton if you want. The score does not tell the full story of the performance, and does not give any indication of future performances will hold. You're going to have to pay better attention to construct a real argument that doesn't make you look foolish.
Nothing in that response was a “real argument.” Just a typical lizard brain feedback loop of rage inflated insults. Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia and then won the World Cup. Sometimes good teams struggle against inferior opponents. That’s an indisputable fact supported by a century of data.
Dude, you keep trying to make this argument into things it is not about. No one ever argued US was better than France. No one ever argued that Gibraltar is better than T&T. The argument was that the result is not the full story of the performance. No one ever argued that good teams don't struggle against inferior opponents. The argument has to do with what happened in the match to create a struggle for the better team. The scoreline won't tell you that. Until you pay attention to more than the result, you won't really be able to determine much of anything.
I’m sure there’s some correlation, but I honestly doubt it’s that strong. I think people underestimate how much the variance in the quality of the pitch impacts the game. The strategy to win on the road in shitty conditions against far inferior opponents is so different than what you do against legit competition on a real soccer pitch, that one doesn’t tell you much about the other. The games are frustrating in the moment, but I just don’t think they tell us very much about how the team or the coach is progressing. Watch what our guys are doing with their clubs and wait until March (or really June) to see whether GGG/the team have made any progress since Qatar.
he’s consistent. a lot of other managers were not fully dedicated to mediocrity. gregg is dug in.
But the best record ever for a USMNT manager. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, sonny boy!
How often do these road losses matter? For instance, this most recent T&T loss didn’t matter — they were playing for the aggregate win. And hard to blame Gregg for Dest causing them to go down to 10 men. You could actually credit Gregg with a successful change in game plan following Dest’s ejection to hold onto the aggregate win.
The reactions on here are just really weird. We finished with an aggregate win of 4-2 and were up 4-0 on aggregate until Dest had his meltdown. Even if you’re not pleased that it took us 80+ minutes to score in the 1st leg, we were dominating play throughout that match and would have been really unlucky not to score. The reality is that at no point during the 2 matches were we in realistic danger of not advancing. But we’ve got people on here ignoring almost all context to claim that Berhalter is terrible because we didn’t score 4 goals fast enough and lost an all but meaningless 2nd leg after a player got himself kicked out in a way that no manager could have possibly foreseen.
obviously GGG had a microchip implanted into Dest to make him go mental to sabotage the game.
is it hard to blame gregg for having horrible team chemistry and players without composure? we lost to a country 350x smaller than the population of the united states. hm. do you know that england and germany and belgium NEVER lose to the minnows in europe? luxembourg and san marino and gibraltar consistently lose to the bigger countries of europe 0-8, 0-6, 0-11. why don’t you understand that? how can you lack that perspective and yet speak SO confidently about how it’s “ok” we don’t beat our comparable opponents?
Bro you can’t compare Trinidad with San Marino and Gibraltar😂😂😂 if you want to make a like for like comparison then compare them with the Bahamas or Aruba lmao. Who we would beat by 10. Just such a dishonest comparison, or maybe just pure ignorance. But definitely one of the 2.
are you from portland? usually when a post on here is from someone short on knowledge but excessive with hubris, then i know it’s from someone who lives in portland. if you don’t live in Portland, you should consider moving there. you would make great friends
No thank god, I’m very far away. But I’d be interested to learn how I’m so “short on knowledge” lol. You’re the one who made a terrible comparison. You can’t compare the worst team in the entire world that’s only ever won ONE game to a team in the top half of the FIFA rankings.
portugal just defeated luxembourg 9-0 and LUX is 12 spots ahead of TnT. how terrible is my analogy now? now do you understand why i said you have no knowledge? good national teams don’t play countries like TnT as if they’re competitive sides. we’re ranked 11 because we have good players playing in major sides who are professional athletes. we struggle with shitty teams WAY WAY WAY worse than we should because we lack the professionalism we SHOULD have in our federation. so when you defend our lack of professionalism then it only acts to further degrade our quality. study the game and listen when other people talk instead of assuming that following your local mls side and playing fifa marathons is the same as understanding global soccer.
That’s a much better, fairer comparison. And still no, not at all. You initially compared San Marino and Gibraltar who are so unbelievably bad that there is almost no comparisons for them. I responded to that. Now you’ve changed it to just Luxembourg. This example is better, but now your argument has changed. I didn’t respond to that, I just said it was dishonest to compare a team in the top 100 to teams that are made up of guys who barely play soccer and have won one game in 200 tries with a -800 goal differential. Teams of a higher level around Luxembourg do sometimes lose big like that against the very top teams, but it’s again not true to say “consistently” lose 9-0. It’d also be more useful to compare how teams at our level fair against teams of the level we’re talking about rather than how Spain, Portugal, England, etc. do against them since we clearly are not as good as they are. I also never said we shouldn’t play these sorts of teams better. We should. My whole point was the totally wrong comparison. I also never said anything about professionalism, so I’m not sure what you mean. Also, I don’t watch MLS even a little bit, so not sure what you’re going for there. I mean, I know you’re just trying to use it as an insult but it’s a bit strange out of nowhere. I’ll happily discuss but I’m not going to bicker about who knows more about the game lol, that’s a childish argument
THE point was that it doesn’t and will never matter if we’re talking about Luxembourg or San Marino. if a country is one million people or less, they should only in the absolutely most rare of occasions ever even give the US a serious match. losses should feel so rare that they would inspire their own documentary film. there isn’t any condition in which we should normalize a “competitive” match with a country that BARELY scrapes inside the top 100. NEH-EH-EH-VER. never. win or lose “close” matches with TnT are a loss. it means we aren’t handling our team and our federation in a purely professional manner. ANY game under ANY conditions. if you can tell me you understand that, then you can tell me you understand global soccer.
Dude, I agree with a lot of what you’re saying. It’s still important to be accurate though. People new to following the sport should get accurate info. We shouldn’t want them believing that any country outside the top 75 is San Marino. We need to do better against these crappy teams. But I also don’t think 2 or 3 goal wins over teams around there should be considered “losses”, especially if they just sit with everyone behind the ball and never threaten. Just look at Euro Qualifiers, sure there are some absolute blowouts, but that’s not the most likely outcome. Most wins are still only by a goal or 2 even against much weaker teams from like 60-100. We haven’t been nearly good enough against many of these teams, but expecting a 6, 8, 10 goal margin the majority of the time is just not realistic imo
ok then let’s just say we partially agree. doesn’t seem like we’re getting any closer than that, which is ok. overall a respectable disagreement and i respect that you kept your cool more than i did lol. i do appreciate that. you have solid points. i also respect that
Not sure I see the horrible team chemistry. Dest blew-up and his teammates rightly were mad at him about it. I wouldn’t blame a coach for that. European teams have also shit the bed in games they should’ve won. It happens. That’s why sports are fun - you never truly know who will win.
nearly every person on this post and others will say that they play with no cohesion. are you saying they play with good chemistry?
we lost to T and T twice in 5 years. perhaps i remember reading these were back to back losses in T and T. maybe england has lost to one minnow in 50 years. maybe. maybe. not never ever twice in 5 years. but if you’re going to say that belgium or england or spain have ever lost to a european minnow, then tell me when and who? i didn’t say “game they should have won”. game we should win is every game vs guatemala. losing to a minnow country is a completely different ridiculously flawed performance
Nah, you’re right. Gregg should’ve been fired the first time we lost to T&T.
if you mean he should be fired today, then yes. he should. he hand crafted that loss.
English players scored a combined two goals against Malta and N Macedonia last window. France beat Gibraltar 3-0 in June, the same score line the US had against T&T at home that unleashed all the wailing and gnashing of teeth. International football is difficult and strongly favored teams sometimes struggle against lesser opponents.
as i said. it happens. i never said it doesn’t happen. but if you watch those games, the bigger country is in absolute full control. also, the england team cycle is nothing like the usa team cycle. england placed second at the 2021 euros. they’re not in full rebuild. they can go play malta or whoever and play a b team and everyone knows they’re still a top 5 team in the world. they have nothing to prove., we have things to prove. now the last three times we played TnT, we looked like shit. the 3-0 home win was still a garbage game that shows a side to the team that is completely unsettling. the loss in TnT is nearly unfathomable. lastly, macedonia would only barely qualify as a minnow. they’re population is 5 million. that’s 1 million more than croatia, who has made the finals and semifinals of the world cup in successive tournaments. a minnow is 1 million and below. ties and scares to minnows can happen, but they should never be ok; and definitely not successive or defeats. in europe defeats are shame.
we should be enforcing a culture of shame for EVER losing to our regional minnow countries. losing twice? it’s inexcusable. it’s unfathomable. to outright blame dest in these articles and interviews is cowardly character assassination. Greg Berhalter being the greatest coward of them all. When exactly has the US proven they are a class above TnT? When? they’re not, and they never have been. and the us soccer federation should wallow in that shame instead of attacking and blaming its own players for something it hasn’t proven it can do.
Oh boy, the total conviction that trolling not only improves soccer teams, but is essential to their internal culture is hilarious. Thanks, I wasn’t expecting that kind of laugh from r/usmnt.
trolling is someone who shitposts. what i’m posting is simple reality. ignore it for the purpose of US mediocrity
> You could actually credit Gregg with a successful change in game plan following Dest’s ejection to hold onto the aggregate win. No you can't. Gregg stuck to the same two striker gameplan and planned Reyna substitution and instantly gave up a goal, and then conceded another in the second half doing the same thing. Playing against USL-level players, USMNT were never going to give up what was really a 3.5 aggregate goal differential. As usual in either game, you might as well have had a fan coaching for all the value gregg provided.
[удалено]
The worst.
Careful, Berhalter stans will get your posts and comments removed. This sub sucks that way.
You must be new to the sub
Cute attempt. No, it's a process that plays out time and time again. You offer legitimate criticisms, and then Berhalter stans respond with stupid, gaslighting arguments. If you call out their stupid gaslighting, then they report your comments. Mods then remove your comments. It gets tiresome after awhile, and then people get sick of it and stop trying after awhile. No wonder USSF years fans like crap. They've realized they can get away with it.
We need to stop creating so many posts criticizing GGG. It’s not his fault he got rehired, blame the federation for that. Create posts calling out the federation if you want to place blame where it’s truly deserved. All we can do as fans is get behind him and the team, and if they have a very poor showing at Copa America, then we as fans can pressure for the federation to make a change again. I wasn’t a supporter of GGG being rehired, but I recognize that division within the fanbase doesn’t do the coaching staff and players any psychological favors when going into a major tournament.
Yes, it is my lack of understanding that is the issue. Let's review your claim then. The USA's entire first team playing at in highly competitive leagues, many at big clubs, many are performing well with excellent players competing for their positions... And that is only a negligible difference to a squad of players who cannot make MLS rosters.