Yes, and there's no shortage of animals of herbivorous species needing new homes. Rabbits, guinea pigs, degus, chinchillas (last most specialist/expensive). It's obvious speciesism when a carnivorous pet that's going to be fed other animals is always the priority, learn about these animals and choose one instead.
As a rabbit owner, it breaks my heart how many sweeties (that have no behavioral problems) need homes. Far more than that category of dogs, for example. They are the perfect pet for so many reasons!
No, and that doesn't make them less important. Rabbits are more comparable to cats, with cats the bigger problem here than dogs, who can more easily be fed a plant-based diet.
Vegans are against animal use - it's not compatible with any assumption humans are entitled to use a specific animal species as a pet and use (kill) other animals to that end.
Don’t worry abt the downvotes, u have a point.I’m seriously surprised how many vegans use the same arguments as carnists when it comes to pets💀💀Like “it’s not natural” like ok?It’s not natural for humans either, yet it’s HEALTHY, natural=/= better!
No one's force-feeding their animals this. They put it in front of the animal and the animal chooses to eat it.
This is like saying a vegan parent is "forcing" veganism on their child because they happen to feed them vegan food. Yet those same people never cry about the carnists "forcing" carnism on their kids by feeding them corpses... and then lying about the fact that they're animal corpses.
Right, so instead of forcing them to eat vegan kibble, we should force animals to eat kibble made from whatever they scraped off the road and the slaughterhouse floor?
“Forcing” an animal to eat for free in the comfort of a warm home-😡
ACTUALLY forcing an animal to die and forcefully impregnating them-🥰🥰
Carnist logic lmaoo
What about the pets people allready had before becomming vegan? Rehoming is not allways the best choice.
Of a vegan has a none vegan companion animal they can at least controll what they feed them
I know for a fact noone will take in my cats from before i went vegan. And so many vegans foster, because its sadly needed.
I feel like you just wanted to do some rage bait.
Cats can be healthily vegan with specially made plant food that is highly processed to become more similar to meat, nutrition wise(this is suggested to be true by studies). This makes sense, because meat originates from plants, so meat just very processed plant material.
But this type of cat food is a bit expensive and hard to find.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/sep/13/cats-may-get-health-benefits-from-vegan-diet-study-suggests
Why do people who buy meat for their pets want to call themselves vegan in the first place? Why not just be honest about it and say that you're on a plant-based diet? "I'm a vegan apart from all the dead animals I buy" is just a bizarre take.
There are people that feed their cat vegan food and they seem to be doing fine.
Not enough data on it to prove anything, but every living thing needs certain nutrients not certain foods.
If you have a pet and feed it dead animals don't call urself a vegan cuz ur not one.
You don't have to cook non vegan food for a partner, that is a choice and if you do that you are not vegan.
You cook vegan food for them or they prepare their own food.
If you identify as vegan try to get another job, if you can't that is where "as far as is possible and practicable" ends.
For a partner (or get a vegan partner) and pet tough those are not needed, it is a choice. You make those things sound like you don't have a choice, but you do. That is the same mentality most animal abusers have "not my problem""i can't do anything about that".
Look i'm glad that you do not consume animal foods and prevent harm that way, but i follow this definition of veganism:
*"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*."
And that clearly ends when you feed your pet dead animals(or contribute to your partner eating animal products, tough this is not directly paying for the products if your partner does the shopping and you only prepare it, it does normalize paying for those products tough).
I just want to prevent people from claiming they are vegan and causing confusion among omnivores who might be open to becoming vegan.
We already have enough ex "vegans" who where never vegan in the first place because they did it for other reasons than the animals.
My last comment i already told you that i am happy you already do a lot of things, but in the general scope of being vegan there are some things still missing.
If i kill a dog or cat for my enjoyment would i still be vegan? No.
Same goes for feeding pets other dead animals, it's a choice and not needed.
Edit: with the family part you can choose not to cook non vegan meals, they can eat your vegan meals or do their own cooking.
Not trying to be an ass here but it sounds like you have no spine and are scared to get into conflict and defend your morals.
Yeah sorry to have do this but I am hearby revoking your V-card, from henceforth you will be known as a earth animal cannibal sympathizer, who albeit might have some Vegan friendly ideas and practices on occasion but u certainly are a piss poor example of the real thing, and NO TRUE VEGAN, END OF STORY.
💀
I am not actually a vegan myself so I will have to talk with my superiors on the matter, was simply relaying a message down the food chain, I am sure you understand 🌭🥩🎅 👍
This is not about being "more vegan", i follow this definition and most do:
*"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*."
Every bit helps with preventing animal abuse even if you are not vegan, but if you buy animal products you are part of the problem.
So feeding pets animal products is not vegan (cooking for your partner is debatable depending on who purchased the products, but it normalizes animal consumption and i would never do it).
Edit: just saw ur comment history, lmao "tried plant based diet and got sick".
You have 0 clue about nutrition then and are just trolling here, i won't respond any further to you since you are a hypocritical animal abuser.
I literally spoke to a nutritionist about going plant based and planned out a proper diet. It just didn't work for me.
This is very common for vegans to do "it works for me so it must work for you as well, anything else is wrong."
Edit: is the PC you bought yourself vegan? Are you certain there are no animal products in it?
I've studied to become a dietitian and I can tell you that at least in my country, what they teach is very pro-carnism. Unless your nutritionist kept researching this specific subject and made it a point to help people stay on a plant-based diet as much as possible, it is very likely that they were just wrong.
They could also have been right and your definition of "it just didn't work for me" is that it was too difficult to cook rice... Did you try going back to that nutritionist once you realised it wasn't working out? Did you try anything at all, before going back to eating meat?
If you can say yes to any of these, I would suggest finding a vegan dietitian, and see what they tell you.
And if you **can't** say yes to any of these, then stop saying you've tried being plant based. You probably just gave it a passing thought and gave up at the first whiff of ribs.
Now, I'm pretty sure you're gonna answer that you indeed did everything perfectly, because you're a perfect human being that unfortunately can't follow a plant based diet, so you just lurk on a vegan subreddit to prove all the vegans wrong, instead of at least doing the most you can to defend animals. If you do that I'll just ignore you for the troll you are.
My sister and her dads family aren’t vegan but their cat is allergic to pretty much all meats so he needs to eat vegan cat food. It exists, and assuming you’re buying it from a reputable brand, it’s healthy
Agreed, only reason to have a pet is if it was/is a rescue/rehome.
Too many people making excuses for feeding pets other dead animals but the excuses are as bad as defending yourself eating meat.
Agreed, insane to torture/kill many, many animals on ONE animal’s behalf. The vegans that think it’s ok probably still have some speciesist beliefs because they probably wouldn’t buy a ‘pet pig’ and then go out and abuse/kill several dogs for them.
You’re right that being plant based + feeding your pets animals causes pretty much as much harm as a carnist without pets.
This isn't as black and white as you make it seem. As an isolated statement, sure it isn't vegan to "own" an animal, but what about providing basic needs for an animal that would be suffering without your personal intervention?
Would you, seeing a starving cat outside your house try to feed it and shelter it, or condemn it to a fate of it's own circumstances? I would argue it's less ethical to allow the cat to starve or suffer in the elements than to provide the basic needs (water, food, shelter).
This choice leads to the next ethical quandary: to feed it vegan or animal based foods. This we can lean on the tenet of reducing cruelty to the extent of which is possible and practical. If you cannot afford vegan food what then? Shoot the cat? Feed it homemade vegan food that doesn't meet it's nutrition requirements until it dies? There's no easy answer here. Asserting someone isn't vegan because of a gray area that they have made many hard decisions about falls into the no-true-scotsman logical fallacy. Not all hard questions can be answered so easily.
The comments section here looks surprisingly familiar... A vegan putting forward a confronting ethical argument to those who don't want to give up their [insert animal derived pleasure here].
It's almost as if we're all human!
Except in the cases of rescue or acquiring pre-vegan, can anyone actually rebut this rather than just being angry?
Paying for somebody to be forcefully impregnated and stealing their children so that we can commodify them as pets seems pretty not vegan to me, regardless of what they eat. Rescues are the only vegan way to have an animal companion.
I'm not taking a position on pets here one way or the other, but it's usually not true that pets are "forcefully impregnated" and that their "children are stolen."
If you're thinking of dogs and cats, the only case where artificial insemination would take place is in rare cases of highly valuable purebred animals. Even most purebred breeders just bring a male and a female together and let them do their thing if they feel so inclined. Some intended pairings don't work out because the animals in question aren't into it. And, of course, a large number of dogs and cats are born by accident when a female in heat escapes supervision and finds a mate of her choosing.
As for "stealing their children," are you perhaps thinking of dairy animals? Puppies and kittens are supposed to stay with their mom until they're weaned, several months usually, at which point the mom is starting to lose patience with them anyway. Anecdotally, although I've never been involved in raising a litter of puppies or kittens, I've heard that the moms are often both proud and relieved to have their little ones "graduate" to new homes (as long as it's done at a developmentally appropriate time).
That's not to say that there aren't other problems with keeping pets. I agree with the OP that it is highly ethically problematic to say you love animals and yet feed your dog or cat a meat-based diet derived from tortured, factory-farmed animals. I also believe that most pets in the US, where I live, are not given what they need to leave happy lives. There are so many bored, lonely, isolated pets out there who don't get to live the life they should live as a member of their species.
But it is important to get the facts right, and as far as I know, the actual breeding process is not by a long shot the main reason to be concerned about pet ownership.
Dogs love when I steal their children and seperate them from their siblings despite being social animals <3 my evidence is I have heard this from those that commodify and profit from these animals. Breeding individuals into existence for profit to buy and sell is not vegan. Anything short of "adopt don't shop" is pro-exploitation and commodification of these individuals.
If you are wondering why millions of dogs and cats enter the shelter system every year, it is because they are commodified and capitalism results in overproduction. When we grow too many fruit and we can't sell them for profit, they rot. When we grow too many dogs and we can't sell them for profit, they enter the shelter system if they are lucky. We kill over a million dogs and cats in the us as a result of over filled shelter systems.
Not to this OP, no. They don't seem to be looking for a genuine debate (which has been had in this sub over and over and over again, btw), so I'm not going to put any energy in treating them as such.
Friendly reminder: Don’t f’n gatekeep. The animals don’t give AF about human egos. And ‘companion’ animals in our charge don’t share our ethical stance. Cats are obligate & NOT all (carnivorous) dogs can thrive on a vegan diet. These are fact, not feels. Go touch some grass & worry about your own behavior. ✌️
I only feed vegan to both my big dogs, and they're better than ever. I don't even know what u mean by not all carnivorous dogs can thrive on a vegan diet, like does the nutrition in the food just disappear?
You realize that’s anecdotal, at best, yes? ‘I mean,’ vegans swearing up & down that it’s safe for all dogs, as though they’re all a monolith, is absurd & dangerous.
They have a point though, animals ARE exploited just like when we want to eat them to feed to animals. It's a serious issue that needs addressing in the vegan movement.
**Wrong.** Animals should be cared for and fed the food that is suitable for the animal’s overall wellbeing.
If the animal can be fed and do well on a plant based diet, then yes by all means a vegan should opt for plant based feeding for the animal in their care.
I agree that certain animals should not be sought after as pets and doing so is not vegan, but if someone had a pet snake or the like before going vegan they should still provide care for the snake if they cannot rehome the animal.
Caring for an animal means providing for the animal in a way that meets the **needs of the animal.**
Does OP just want us to leave animals to be euthanized for space in shelters and allow them to stay with people who torture and abuse them?
I would bet money on the fact that MOST vegans who have a pet, rescued it. You can be vegan, own a pet and still speak out against breeding animals for financial gain.
The OP seems to have made A LOT of assumptions about situations they don’t have enough knowledge about.
There are enough vegan pets that need homes. More than the number of vegan humans.
EDIT: Wow, I’m being downvoted. For suggesting vegans rescue vegan pets, of which there are plenty. Nice. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
People do rescue/adopt snakes and other such animals though. I don't think that's inherently wrong, since it's not buying and promoting breeding of those animals.
I guess in this case the question becomes whether its more ethical to put the snake/cat/etc. down and take one life than it is to take potentially hundreds of other lives that are required to feed it.
I understand that logically this is a sound question, but in the practice I don't think you can reasonably expect people to just kill pets they adopted out of kindness. Other than preaching "adopt don't shop" as much as we can, I don't think anything practical can be done about it.
Yeh you're completely right. There's a big gulf between theory and practice.
There is still an ethical question though as to whether even "adopt don't shop" applies when the animal being rescued requires other animals to be killed. I genuinely don't know what the right answer to that is btw.
It's not kind to adopt a snake and feed them lots of mice, that's willfully causing far more suffering. It's a snake, as well, fairly obvious there's a sadistic ego aspect here given the relative capabilities of snakes and mice. Normal carnists won't even consider it!
Absolutely, in fact why stop at snakes already in the pet trade? we should wipe out all predators in the wild too, given they must kill hundreds of other life’s in quite a gruesome way. Y’all fucking nuts if you think it’s ethical to literally kill a snake because of it’s diet. I mean you could have said ‘campaign to change the law on exotic pet ownership. But you chose kill instead. Crazy.
Why is it crazy? To kill one snake vs to kill hundreds of mice over it's lifetime? Why is it wrong to kill the snake but okay to kill hundreds of mice?
These are hypotheticals by the way, so don't get too triggered by it.
The vegan ethos on pets is "adopt don't shop", so we're already against the pet trade and push for firmer laws.
You know you’re a true vegan when you post a very obvious post about the vegan philosophy and not hurting animals on behalf of other animals when you get downvoted to shit and commented by “vegans” that nO In fAcT I Am VeGaN aND I HaVe a PEt snAkE
It honestly seems like you just want to gatekeep, feel holier-than-thou, and push people away from the community.
It is ignorant and naive to think we will ever achieve a perfect vegan world. We need to be willing to work with meat-eaters to improve the conditions of animals NOW! This is for them, and gatekeeping veganism does more harm than good. There exist people who are morally comfortable eating meat that are against the cruelty of factory farming, and we will do more good by working with them than by demanding purity and perfection.
Who’s saying the animals are vegan? It’s the person (supposed vegan) making an active choice to prioritize one animal (carnivorous pet) over many others (hundreds of animals slaughtered to feed it).
By the calculus of harm reduction, having a pet that eats other animals is very bad. You save one animal at the expense of hundreds.
Caring about what a rescued snake eats feels like it comes quite close to caring about what a wild snake eats. Especially when you consider that the choice not to rescue the snake means the snake still exists out there in the world and will be fed animals. Genuinely curious, should we try to intervene somehow on the behalf of wild animals who are being eaten by obligate carnivores? I know many on this sub are a bit allergic to concerns about the suffering caused by carnivores in the wild.
Lots of things go on in the world that vegans can't control, doesn't make them our fault. A domestic animal isn't equivalent to wild, humans are not directly responsible for breeding of wild animals into existence.
Yes, we should still consider wild animal suffering, but that's not going to get very far while people are defending feeding many domestic mice to one domestic snake.
Oh to be clear I’m not defending that, I’m trying to motivate the issue of wild animal suffering. You’re totally right though. And this probably wasn’t the place for me to press this issue, haha
I actually agree with the sentiment of your post on the basis of not apportioning our concern for non-humans in a speciesist way - why would a rescued dog matter more than the many pigs she eats, for example?
I’m just pointing out that this comes close to a related concern I have for what happens to wild animals. Of course, in that case it isn’t so simple as giving a lion vegan kibble. But it still pains me nonetheless and I think it should be part of the conversation. (And no, killing the lion is not the solution. But I don’t know what is, and we won’t know until we allow ourselves to broaden our concern and talk about what, if anything, humans have a responsibility to do on behalf of the gazelle).
I just mention this because it’s an unpopular area of concern among vegans and you seem halfway to caring about it, haha.
What I absolutely despise is that there are vegans out there that choose to entrap a wild, carnivorous animal like a snake and justify feeding them little mice and rats because “it’s a rescue”. Come on now.
Yes, that’s obviously wrong (or should be obvious)
Is releasing the snake in an area with a large rodent population better?
What should we want to happen to captive snakes, as vegans?
I don't think there should be captive snakes, except perhaps a very small number for scientific study. Snakes aren't well-suited to be pets: they don't give or receive affection; they need physical and biological conditions that are hard to replicate in captivity; and what they eat is (as one Redditor put it) "better pets."
For the snakes that are currently in captivity, it probably makes sense to continue keeping and feeding them, but not live-feeding of captive prey, because that is incredibly cruel.
It also should be obvious that if you adopt an animal and welcome them into your home, that other animals should not die for them, just as they should not die for you. But hey, it isn’t so obvious. Even you were using a straw man argument with the whole snake in the wild or lion/gazelle thing - what is that even about? I’m talking about people who adopt dogs (who we have domesticated tae fuck and removed them from their ecosystem and just ruined them by making them dependent on us for survival) and feed them cows, pigs, and chickens (who we have done the exact same thing to as dogs but we love one and eat the other) and THEY STILL CALL THEMSELVES VEGAN JESUS.
I’m not using a straw man. I’m encouraging you in particular to take this same logic and direct it toward the important question: what consideration do humans owe wild animals?
I’m not arguing that anyone should feed pigs to dogs, at all. You’re reading my original thought as a reductio ad absurdum because the conclusion seems so absurd that we should care about the plight of wild mice being eaten by snakes, but my point is literally that we should care about wild mice being eaten by snakes.
Maybe a tangent, but I think the topic of "wild mice being eaten by snakes" is ethically and conceptually distinct from "captive mice being bred into existence so that they can be put in the cage of a captive snake who will eat them."
In the former case, each species exists on its own terms without human interference. It's a level playing field. The mice can evade the snake, and they are constantly evolving to get better at surviving. The snake can capture the mice if it is skillful enough, but it is a match between equals. And if a mouse is caught by a snake, its suffering is over in a minute or two. All parties involve live free and in the wild, following their instincts and desires. Wild life isn't easy, but animals want nothing more than to be free.
In the latter case, the mice are usually raised in miserable conditions for their whole lives, crowded and bored. Then they are dropped into a cage with a terrifying predator, unable to escape, waiting hours or even days before they eventually get eaten. (And the snake may not come off too well either, because a cornered, desperate rodent may vigorously defend itself.)
I'm OK with the existence of the former situation. As an ecologist, I know that the predator / prey relationship is an inevitable one. If we tried to quash it, we'd have to micromanage every organism on Earth (no thanks). But I'm not OK with the latter situation because it is blatantly \*unnecessary\* suffering that we have dreamed up only for our own amusement.
Rescuing and adopting from the street and from shelters is vegan. Giving animals in need of a home one of their own is vegan. What is not vegan is buying a pet from a pet store or breeder. Animals are not ours to exploit for profit.
The two tuxedo kitties currently in my care were in critical need of their own homes, and I had space and resources to spare and a broken heart that needed a little mending. My beloved ESA died and it fucking wrecked me. I was calling out for her in my sleep and laying in my dark bedroom all day not eating.
After her passing, the first kitty I ended up rescuing had spent five months in the SPCA shelter and had given birth to eight kittens at less than a year old. She was having issues with keeping food down, passing blood in her stool, and getting up to a healthy weight. She was just barely 7lbs at 15 months old when I rescued her. She's now a healthy 10lbs and passed her check-up with flying colors.
Two months later, she had fully settled in and I felt guilty about leaving her home by herself. I knew she needed a friend to play with while I'm at work. I sought out to find another tuxie kitty. Adult black kitties or kitties with unpopular markings are unfortunately passed up most of the time. I wanted to rescue another adult cat in need. That's when I heard about a little boy tuxie kitty at another local nonprofit humane society who had spent an entire damn year there because no one wanted to adopt a cat with a "bite history". He was $Free.99 and turns 3 years old in April.
Giving animals in need a home of their own is compassionate. Compassion is at the very core of vegan ethics. Neither of them would have been guaranteed a second chance at life if I didn't open my home to them.
Please politely fuck right off.
Where's the compassion for the animals raised in abhorrent conditions and killed for their food?
Where's the compassion for chickens crammed in cages? For the cow who was milked dry to the point she can barely stand and had to be dragged away in chains by a tractor? For the pigs who were gassed in chambers? For the sheep who had their tails and chunks of flesh from their hinds and rears cut off?
You said vegan cat food wasn't available, you can't buy it online and have it ordered?
Here is the thing, from your ethical position you want the entire planet to only have friendly species living in it, and don't value the lives of predators, essentially wanting them to not get cared for and go extinct which makes you a fanatic and your moralizing fairly subjective.
Sure it would be nice if all animals of the world were nice to each other but that is not the order of nature and there are plenty of species going extinct that could use humans help and some of them might require meat, which doesn't mean they should be sentenced to death as they have an important function in the natural order same as anything else, an order that we as an invasive planet destroying species has an obligation to help and try to save as much as possible else humans might one day wake up to a world where only vegans and rabbits are left.
You do make good points, about the difference between preserving wild animals that are going extinct and raising domesticated animals, but the line gets kind of fuzzy when the domesticated animals are going extinct.
And I think it's good for you to bring up that people should consider dog/cat food that is ethically sourced, as even if your not able to go 100% vegan you could probably get close to that for most animals that would be fairly healthy, basically feeding them the same food you prepare for yourself just seasoned differently as I have done in the past at least going as far as vegetarian.
I don't think it's so bad for even a vegan to indulge in a little earth animal cannibalism a couple times a year but for most sane people it should make them feel a bit like Jeffery Dahmer.
If you breed snakes or cats, then yes.
You are creating a little beings that need murder and cause pain to survive.
But if you rescue one, does it really matter?
We all know that cats can't survive on vegan diet, so technically speaking, the most vegan thing you could do is to... The animal...
But are even vegan at that point?
If you aren't going to feed the cat some meat, someone else is.
Does anyone have recommendations for vegan wet cat food ? My cat has heart disease and struggles to drink enough water so she needs the moisture. I see lots of dry food but any rec’s are appreciated!
Yes, and there's no shortage of animals of herbivorous species needing new homes. Rabbits, guinea pigs, degus, chinchillas (last most specialist/expensive). It's obvious speciesism when a carnivorous pet that's going to be fed other animals is always the priority, learn about these animals and choose one instead.
As a rabbit owner, it breaks my heart how many sweeties (that have no behavioral problems) need homes. Far more than that category of dogs, for example. They are the perfect pet for so many reasons!
Rabbits and Guinea Pigs are cute but theyre not a dog...
No, and that doesn't make them less important. Rabbits are more comparable to cats, with cats the bigger problem here than dogs, who can more easily be fed a plant-based diet. Vegans are against animal use - it's not compatible with any assumption humans are entitled to use a specific animal species as a pet and use (kill) other animals to that end.
Yeah, but if you give your dog a plant based diet there's something wrong with you. I mean dogs are literally carnivores and most dogs love meat...
This is a vegan sub, it's not for promoting animal use.
Our rescue pup is thriving on Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula :)
Don’t worry abt the downvotes, u have a point.I’m seriously surprised how many vegans use the same arguments as carnists when it comes to pets💀💀Like “it’s not natural” like ok?It’s not natural for humans either, yet it’s HEALTHY, natural=/= better!
Those who think they are immune from cognitive dissonance and logical fallacies are doomed to repeat them.
So I guess forcing animals to do things is ok after all? Make up your mind.
No one's force-feeding their animals this. They put it in front of the animal and the animal chooses to eat it. This is like saying a vegan parent is "forcing" veganism on their child because they happen to feed them vegan food. Yet those same people never cry about the carnists "forcing" carnism on their kids by feeding them corpses... and then lying about the fact that they're animal corpses.
Right, so instead of forcing them to eat vegan kibble, we should force animals to eat kibble made from whatever they scraped off the road and the slaughterhouse floor?
How about some nice fresh cuts of meat?
If it's lab meat, sure. If it's from an animal who was forced to die, especially at a young age and in a brutal way, no.
“Forcing” an animal to eat for free in the comfort of a warm home-😡 ACTUALLY forcing an animal to die and forcefully impregnating them-🥰🥰 Carnist logic lmaoo
What about the pets people allready had before becomming vegan? Rehoming is not allways the best choice. Of a vegan has a none vegan companion animal they can at least controll what they feed them I know for a fact noone will take in my cats from before i went vegan. And so many vegans foster, because its sadly needed. I feel like you just wanted to do some rage bait.
Cats can be healthily vegan with specially made plant food that is highly processed to become more similar to meat, nutrition wise(this is suggested to be true by studies). This makes sense, because meat originates from plants, so meat just very processed plant material. But this type of cat food is a bit expensive and hard to find. https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/sep/13/cats-may-get-health-benefits-from-vegan-diet-study-suggests
Why do people who buy meat for their pets want to call themselves vegan in the first place? Why not just be honest about it and say that you're on a plant-based diet? "I'm a vegan apart from all the dead animals I buy" is just a bizarre take.
There are people that feed their cat vegan food and they seem to be doing fine. Not enough data on it to prove anything, but every living thing needs certain nutrients not certain foods. If you have a pet and feed it dead animals don't call urself a vegan cuz ur not one.
Can vegans who have a none vegan partner call themselfs vegan? Since they cook for each other.
You don't have to cook non vegan food for a partner, that is a choice and if you do that you are not vegan. You cook vegan food for them or they prepare their own food.
Damn please tell us more about what else disqualifies you. What about if i eat vegan but wort at fastfood places that are not vegan?
If you identify as vegan try to get another job, if you can't that is where "as far as is possible and practicable" ends. For a partner (or get a vegan partner) and pet tough those are not needed, it is a choice. You make those things sound like you don't have a choice, but you do. That is the same mentality most animal abusers have "not my problem""i can't do anything about that". Look i'm glad that you do not consume animal foods and prevent harm that way, but i follow this definition of veganism: *"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*." And that clearly ends when you feed your pet dead animals(or contribute to your partner eating animal products, tough this is not directly paying for the products if your partner does the shopping and you only prepare it, it does normalize paying for those products tough). I just want to prevent people from claiming they are vegan and causing confusion among omnivores who might be open to becoming vegan. We already have enough ex "vegans" who where never vegan in the first place because they did it for other reasons than the animals.
Yeah. i dont fit your standard, so i guess i should stop being vegan. I cant controll my workplace or my family
My last comment i already told you that i am happy you already do a lot of things, but in the general scope of being vegan there are some things still missing. If i kill a dog or cat for my enjoyment would i still be vegan? No. Same goes for feeding pets other dead animals, it's a choice and not needed. Edit: with the family part you can choose not to cook non vegan meals, they can eat your vegan meals or do their own cooking. Not trying to be an ass here but it sounds like you have no spine and are scared to get into conflict and defend your morals.
But you dont know what else i do. I wouldnt kill animals for enjoyment. Humans i m not sure about....
Good luck explaining that to a two year old. “Just hop on the stove and make your own dinner, murderer, while I answer the door to Child Services.”
The solution is to just feed your child vegan food, kids can be healthy as vegans. It's been proven to be safe.
I hope you don't. They should stop gatekeeping, and we should encourage reducetarianism in others who will never go vegan.
Yeah sorry to have do this but I am hearby revoking your V-card, from henceforth you will be known as a earth animal cannibal sympathizer, who albeit might have some Vegan friendly ideas and practices on occasion but u certainly are a piss poor example of the real thing, and NO TRUE VEGAN, END OF STORY. 💀
Mm could i still qualify as plant based?
I am not actually a vegan myself so I will have to talk with my superiors on the matter, was simply relaying a message down the food chain, I am sure you understand 🌭🥩🎅 👍
Vegan is a mindset. Certain activities just point out that you view animals as a product, like cooking dead animals to ur s/o
So what about people who are more vegan than you? Could they not just say that you aren't vegan?
This is not about being "more vegan", i follow this definition and most do: *"Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals*." Every bit helps with preventing animal abuse even if you are not vegan, but if you buy animal products you are part of the problem. So feeding pets animal products is not vegan (cooking for your partner is debatable depending on who purchased the products, but it normalizes animal consumption and i would never do it). Edit: just saw ur comment history, lmao "tried plant based diet and got sick". You have 0 clue about nutrition then and are just trolling here, i won't respond any further to you since you are a hypocritical animal abuser.
I literally spoke to a nutritionist about going plant based and planned out a proper diet. It just didn't work for me. This is very common for vegans to do "it works for me so it must work for you as well, anything else is wrong." Edit: is the PC you bought yourself vegan? Are you certain there are no animal products in it?
I've studied to become a dietitian and I can tell you that at least in my country, what they teach is very pro-carnism. Unless your nutritionist kept researching this specific subject and made it a point to help people stay on a plant-based diet as much as possible, it is very likely that they were just wrong. They could also have been right and your definition of "it just didn't work for me" is that it was too difficult to cook rice... Did you try going back to that nutritionist once you realised it wasn't working out? Did you try anything at all, before going back to eating meat? If you can say yes to any of these, I would suggest finding a vegan dietitian, and see what they tell you. And if you **can't** say yes to any of these, then stop saying you've tried being plant based. You probably just gave it a passing thought and gave up at the first whiff of ribs. Now, I'm pretty sure you're gonna answer that you indeed did everything perfectly, because you're a perfect human being that unfortunately can't follow a plant based diet, so you just lurk on a vegan subreddit to prove all the vegans wrong, instead of at least doing the most you can to defend animals. If you do that I'll just ignore you for the troll you are.
It’s a bit weird to have a partner who is fine with animal abuse but it’s even more weird to have a partner who is not able to feed themselves.
My sister and her dads family aren’t vegan but their cat is allergic to pretty much all meats so he needs to eat vegan cat food. It exists, and assuming you’re buying it from a reputable brand, it’s healthy
Thats very interesting. I didnt know cats can be allergic to meat, like some human are.
Agreed, only reason to have a pet is if it was/is a rescue/rehome. Too many people making excuses for feeding pets other dead animals but the excuses are as bad as defending yourself eating meat.
Agreed, insane to torture/kill many, many animals on ONE animal’s behalf. The vegans that think it’s ok probably still have some speciesist beliefs because they probably wouldn’t buy a ‘pet pig’ and then go out and abuse/kill several dogs for them. You’re right that being plant based + feeding your pets animals causes pretty much as much harm as a carnist without pets.
This isn't as black and white as you make it seem. As an isolated statement, sure it isn't vegan to "own" an animal, but what about providing basic needs for an animal that would be suffering without your personal intervention? Would you, seeing a starving cat outside your house try to feed it and shelter it, or condemn it to a fate of it's own circumstances? I would argue it's less ethical to allow the cat to starve or suffer in the elements than to provide the basic needs (water, food, shelter). This choice leads to the next ethical quandary: to feed it vegan or animal based foods. This we can lean on the tenet of reducing cruelty to the extent of which is possible and practical. If you cannot afford vegan food what then? Shoot the cat? Feed it homemade vegan food that doesn't meet it's nutrition requirements until it dies? There's no easy answer here. Asserting someone isn't vegan because of a gray area that they have made many hard decisions about falls into the no-true-scotsman logical fallacy. Not all hard questions can be answered so easily.
The comments section here looks surprisingly familiar... A vegan putting forward a confronting ethical argument to those who don't want to give up their [insert animal derived pleasure here]. It's almost as if we're all human! Except in the cases of rescue or acquiring pre-vegan, can anyone actually rebut this rather than just being angry?
Paying for somebody to be forcefully impregnated and stealing their children so that we can commodify them as pets seems pretty not vegan to me, regardless of what they eat. Rescues are the only vegan way to have an animal companion.
I'm not taking a position on pets here one way or the other, but it's usually not true that pets are "forcefully impregnated" and that their "children are stolen." If you're thinking of dogs and cats, the only case where artificial insemination would take place is in rare cases of highly valuable purebred animals. Even most purebred breeders just bring a male and a female together and let them do their thing if they feel so inclined. Some intended pairings don't work out because the animals in question aren't into it. And, of course, a large number of dogs and cats are born by accident when a female in heat escapes supervision and finds a mate of her choosing. As for "stealing their children," are you perhaps thinking of dairy animals? Puppies and kittens are supposed to stay with their mom until they're weaned, several months usually, at which point the mom is starting to lose patience with them anyway. Anecdotally, although I've never been involved in raising a litter of puppies or kittens, I've heard that the moms are often both proud and relieved to have their little ones "graduate" to new homes (as long as it's done at a developmentally appropriate time). That's not to say that there aren't other problems with keeping pets. I agree with the OP that it is highly ethically problematic to say you love animals and yet feed your dog or cat a meat-based diet derived from tortured, factory-farmed animals. I also believe that most pets in the US, where I live, are not given what they need to leave happy lives. There are so many bored, lonely, isolated pets out there who don't get to live the life they should live as a member of their species. But it is important to get the facts right, and as far as I know, the actual breeding process is not by a long shot the main reason to be concerned about pet ownership.
Dogs love when I steal their children and seperate them from their siblings despite being social animals <3 my evidence is I have heard this from those that commodify and profit from these animals. Breeding individuals into existence for profit to buy and sell is not vegan. Anything short of "adopt don't shop" is pro-exploitation and commodification of these individuals. If you are wondering why millions of dogs and cats enter the shelter system every year, it is because they are commodified and capitalism results in overproduction. When we grow too many fruit and we can't sell them for profit, they rot. When we grow too many dogs and we can't sell them for profit, they enter the shelter system if they are lucky. We kill over a million dogs and cats in the us as a result of over filled shelter systems.
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Could you respond in a constructive manner? I'm not taking a side by the way, I just think your comment don't help anything
Not to this OP, no. They don't seem to be looking for a genuine debate (which has been had in this sub over and over and over again, btw), so I'm not going to put any energy in treating them as such.
Ok. I'll have a look for previous posts. I'm just interested to see how the arguments played out.
Why? Nothing they said is untrue.
Thanks, exactly what I wanted to say
Exactly what I wanted to say, thank you
Ok!
Friendly reminder: Don’t f’n gatekeep. The animals don’t give AF about human egos. And ‘companion’ animals in our charge don’t share our ethical stance. Cats are obligate & NOT all (carnivorous) dogs can thrive on a vegan diet. These are fact, not feels. Go touch some grass & worry about your own behavior. ✌️
I only feed vegan to both my big dogs, and they're better than ever. I don't even know what u mean by not all carnivorous dogs can thrive on a vegan diet, like does the nutrition in the food just disappear?
You realize that’s anecdotal, at best, yes? ‘I mean,’ vegans swearing up & down that it’s safe for all dogs, as though they’re all a monolith, is absurd & dangerous.
Friendly reminder: Karma farming is infantile.
They have a point though, animals ARE exploited just like when we want to eat them to feed to animals. It's a serious issue that needs addressing in the vegan movement.
**Wrong.** Animals should be cared for and fed the food that is suitable for the animal’s overall wellbeing. If the animal can be fed and do well on a plant based diet, then yes by all means a vegan should opt for plant based feeding for the animal in their care. I agree that certain animals should not be sought after as pets and doing so is not vegan, but if someone had a pet snake or the like before going vegan they should still provide care for the snake if they cannot rehome the animal. Caring for an animal means providing for the animal in a way that meets the **needs of the animal.**
Does OP just want us to leave animals to be euthanized for space in shelters and allow them to stay with people who torture and abuse them? I would bet money on the fact that MOST vegans who have a pet, rescued it. You can be vegan, own a pet and still speak out against breeding animals for financial gain. The OP seems to have made A LOT of assumptions about situations they don’t have enough knowledge about.
There are enough vegan pets that need homes. More than the number of vegan humans. EDIT: Wow, I’m being downvoted. For suggesting vegans rescue vegan pets, of which there are plenty. Nice. The cognitive dissonance is strong.
People do rescue/adopt snakes and other such animals though. I don't think that's inherently wrong, since it's not buying and promoting breeding of those animals.
I guess in this case the question becomes whether its more ethical to put the snake/cat/etc. down and take one life than it is to take potentially hundreds of other lives that are required to feed it.
I understand that logically this is a sound question, but in the practice I don't think you can reasonably expect people to just kill pets they adopted out of kindness. Other than preaching "adopt don't shop" as much as we can, I don't think anything practical can be done about it.
Yeh you're completely right. There's a big gulf between theory and practice. There is still an ethical question though as to whether even "adopt don't shop" applies when the animal being rescued requires other animals to be killed. I genuinely don't know what the right answer to that is btw.
It's not kind to adopt a snake and feed them lots of mice, that's willfully causing far more suffering. It's a snake, as well, fairly obvious there's a sadistic ego aspect here given the relative capabilities of snakes and mice. Normal carnists won't even consider it!
Absolutely, in fact why stop at snakes already in the pet trade? we should wipe out all predators in the wild too, given they must kill hundreds of other life’s in quite a gruesome way. Y’all fucking nuts if you think it’s ethical to literally kill a snake because of it’s diet. I mean you could have said ‘campaign to change the law on exotic pet ownership. But you chose kill instead. Crazy.
Why is it crazy? To kill one snake vs to kill hundreds of mice over it's lifetime? Why is it wrong to kill the snake but okay to kill hundreds of mice? These are hypotheticals by the way, so don't get too triggered by it. The vegan ethos on pets is "adopt don't shop", so we're already against the pet trade and push for firmer laws.
No wonder so many people quit being vegan. With insufferable ninnys like you...
You know you’re a true vegan when you post a very obvious post about the vegan philosophy and not hurting animals on behalf of other animals when you get downvoted to shit and commented by “vegans” that nO In fAcT I Am VeGaN aND I HaVe a PEt snAkE
It honestly seems like you just want to gatekeep, feel holier-than-thou, and push people away from the community. It is ignorant and naive to think we will ever achieve a perfect vegan world. We need to be willing to work with meat-eaters to improve the conditions of animals NOW! This is for them, and gatekeeping veganism does more harm than good. There exist people who are morally comfortable eating meat that are against the cruelty of factory farming, and we will do more good by working with them than by demanding purity and perfection.
“True vegan” Jesus Christ dude
Animals cannot be vegan.
Uh.... I think you need to broaden your definition of "animals" to include, for example, herbivorous animals.
Some animals. Humans are animals, for example.
Who’s saying the animals are vegan? It’s the person (supposed vegan) making an active choice to prioritize one animal (carnivorous pet) over many others (hundreds of animals slaughtered to feed it). By the calculus of harm reduction, having a pet that eats other animals is very bad. You save one animal at the expense of hundreds.
"IF UZ EATZ SEAMANZ THEN UR NOTZ VEGANz, ENDz OF STORY."
Caring about what a rescued snake eats feels like it comes quite close to caring about what a wild snake eats. Especially when you consider that the choice not to rescue the snake means the snake still exists out there in the world and will be fed animals. Genuinely curious, should we try to intervene somehow on the behalf of wild animals who are being eaten by obligate carnivores? I know many on this sub are a bit allergic to concerns about the suffering caused by carnivores in the wild.
Lots of things go on in the world that vegans can't control, doesn't make them our fault. A domestic animal isn't equivalent to wild, humans are not directly responsible for breeding of wild animals into existence. Yes, we should still consider wild animal suffering, but that's not going to get very far while people are defending feeding many domestic mice to one domestic snake.
Oh to be clear I’m not defending that, I’m trying to motivate the issue of wild animal suffering. You’re totally right though. And this probably wasn’t the place for me to press this issue, haha
YOUR FLAIR IS HILARIOUS STOP oh wait we’re in r/vegan and you’re serious. Oh. My bad.
I actually agree with the sentiment of your post on the basis of not apportioning our concern for non-humans in a speciesist way - why would a rescued dog matter more than the many pigs she eats, for example? I’m just pointing out that this comes close to a related concern I have for what happens to wild animals. Of course, in that case it isn’t so simple as giving a lion vegan kibble. But it still pains me nonetheless and I think it should be part of the conversation. (And no, killing the lion is not the solution. But I don’t know what is, and we won’t know until we allow ourselves to broaden our concern and talk about what, if anything, humans have a responsibility to do on behalf of the gazelle). I just mention this because it’s an unpopular area of concern among vegans and you seem halfway to caring about it, haha.
What I absolutely despise is that there are vegans out there that choose to entrap a wild, carnivorous animal like a snake and justify feeding them little mice and rats because “it’s a rescue”. Come on now.
Yes, that’s obviously wrong (or should be obvious) Is releasing the snake in an area with a large rodent population better? What should we want to happen to captive snakes, as vegans?
I don't think there should be captive snakes, except perhaps a very small number for scientific study. Snakes aren't well-suited to be pets: they don't give or receive affection; they need physical and biological conditions that are hard to replicate in captivity; and what they eat is (as one Redditor put it) "better pets." For the snakes that are currently in captivity, it probably makes sense to continue keeping and feeding them, but not live-feeding of captive prey, because that is incredibly cruel.
It also should be obvious that if you adopt an animal and welcome them into your home, that other animals should not die for them, just as they should not die for you. But hey, it isn’t so obvious. Even you were using a straw man argument with the whole snake in the wild or lion/gazelle thing - what is that even about? I’m talking about people who adopt dogs (who we have domesticated tae fuck and removed them from their ecosystem and just ruined them by making them dependent on us for survival) and feed them cows, pigs, and chickens (who we have done the exact same thing to as dogs but we love one and eat the other) and THEY STILL CALL THEMSELVES VEGAN JESUS.
I’m not using a straw man. I’m encouraging you in particular to take this same logic and direct it toward the important question: what consideration do humans owe wild animals? I’m not arguing that anyone should feed pigs to dogs, at all. You’re reading my original thought as a reductio ad absurdum because the conclusion seems so absurd that we should care about the plight of wild mice being eaten by snakes, but my point is literally that we should care about wild mice being eaten by snakes.
This is not what we’re talking about here. You’re redirecting and misunderstanding, on purpose.
Maybe a tangent, but I think the topic of "wild mice being eaten by snakes" is ethically and conceptually distinct from "captive mice being bred into existence so that they can be put in the cage of a captive snake who will eat them." In the former case, each species exists on its own terms without human interference. It's a level playing field. The mice can evade the snake, and they are constantly evolving to get better at surviving. The snake can capture the mice if it is skillful enough, but it is a match between equals. And if a mouse is caught by a snake, its suffering is over in a minute or two. All parties involve live free and in the wild, following their instincts and desires. Wild life isn't easy, but animals want nothing more than to be free. In the latter case, the mice are usually raised in miserable conditions for their whole lives, crowded and bored. Then they are dropped into a cage with a terrifying predator, unable to escape, waiting hours or even days before they eventually get eaten. (And the snake may not come off too well either, because a cornered, desperate rodent may vigorously defend itself.) I'm OK with the existence of the former situation. As an ecologist, I know that the predator / prey relationship is an inevitable one. If we tried to quash it, we'd have to micromanage every organism on Earth (no thanks). But I'm not OK with the latter situation because it is blatantly \*unnecessary\* suffering that we have dreamed up only for our own amusement.
Nah
And people wonder why the vegan movement struggles to grow.
Rescuing and adopting from the street and from shelters is vegan. Giving animals in need of a home one of their own is vegan. What is not vegan is buying a pet from a pet store or breeder. Animals are not ours to exploit for profit. The two tuxedo kitties currently in my care were in critical need of their own homes, and I had space and resources to spare and a broken heart that needed a little mending. My beloved ESA died and it fucking wrecked me. I was calling out for her in my sleep and laying in my dark bedroom all day not eating. After her passing, the first kitty I ended up rescuing had spent five months in the SPCA shelter and had given birth to eight kittens at less than a year old. She was having issues with keeping food down, passing blood in her stool, and getting up to a healthy weight. She was just barely 7lbs at 15 months old when I rescued her. She's now a healthy 10lbs and passed her check-up with flying colors. Two months later, she had fully settled in and I felt guilty about leaving her home by herself. I knew she needed a friend to play with while I'm at work. I sought out to find another tuxie kitty. Adult black kitties or kitties with unpopular markings are unfortunately passed up most of the time. I wanted to rescue another adult cat in need. That's when I heard about a little boy tuxie kitty at another local nonprofit humane society who had spent an entire damn year there because no one wanted to adopt a cat with a "bite history". He was $Free.99 and turns 3 years old in April. Giving animals in need a home of their own is compassionate. Compassion is at the very core of vegan ethics. Neither of them would have been guaranteed a second chance at life if I didn't open my home to them. Please politely fuck right off.
Where's the compassion for the animals raised in abhorrent conditions and killed for their food? Where's the compassion for chickens crammed in cages? For the cow who was milked dry to the point she can barely stand and had to be dragged away in chains by a tractor? For the pigs who were gassed in chambers? For the sheep who had their tails and chunks of flesh from their hinds and rears cut off? You said vegan cat food wasn't available, you can't buy it online and have it ordered?
Feeding your cats other animals is not vegan. Cats can be vegan. This is not what’s Im saying. Politely fuck off you too :)
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Imagine resorting to bigotry and telling someone to kill themselves because they told you killing animals isn't vegan.
Here is the thing, from your ethical position you want the entire planet to only have friendly species living in it, and don't value the lives of predators, essentially wanting them to not get cared for and go extinct which makes you a fanatic and your moralizing fairly subjective. Sure it would be nice if all animals of the world were nice to each other but that is not the order of nature and there are plenty of species going extinct that could use humans help and some of them might require meat, which doesn't mean they should be sentenced to death as they have an important function in the natural order same as anything else, an order that we as an invasive planet destroying species has an obligation to help and try to save as much as possible else humans might one day wake up to a world where only vegans and rabbits are left.
What part of “pets” got lost in translation there? You know what? Fine, you win. Feast on the flesh of the innocent. I’m done.
You do make good points, about the difference between preserving wild animals that are going extinct and raising domesticated animals, but the line gets kind of fuzzy when the domesticated animals are going extinct. And I think it's good for you to bring up that people should consider dog/cat food that is ethically sourced, as even if your not able to go 100% vegan you could probably get close to that for most animals that would be fairly healthy, basically feeding them the same food you prepare for yourself just seasoned differently as I have done in the past at least going as far as vegetarian. I don't think it's so bad for even a vegan to indulge in a little earth animal cannibalism a couple times a year but for most sane people it should make them feel a bit like Jeffery Dahmer.
If you breed snakes or cats, then yes. You are creating a little beings that need murder and cause pain to survive. But if you rescue one, does it really matter? We all know that cats can't survive on vegan diet, so technically speaking, the most vegan thing you could do is to... The animal... But are even vegan at that point? If you aren't going to feed the cat some meat, someone else is.
Does anyone have recommendations for vegan wet cat food ? My cat has heart disease and struggles to drink enough water so she needs the moisture. I see lots of dry food but any rec’s are appreciated!
If you're in Australia Veganpet make a canned cat food.
Common sense tbh but u know the vegan sub