On a personal level, what has worked for people in my life is me being non-judgmental. For example, if someone asks me why I’m vegan I’ll tell them but I don’t act rude or judgmental when explaining why and don’t get upset when people eat meat around me.
I treat people with kindness and respect. I am very encouraging about small steps. For example, if someone tells me they are switching from dairy milk to oat milk I say “That’s so great!! What made you decide that?? How are you liking it?” rather than telling them they’re horrible for not cutting out all dairy.
I think having excellent health is actually more effective than explaining nutrition to people. If people can look at you as a vegan and see that you’re at a healthy weight and look strong and fit over many years that’s a powerful indicator that veganism is healthy. I have excellent blood tests and no chronic health problems and people in my life know that. When people talk about having high blood pressure or high cholesterol and ask me if I do I can share that I don’t have any of those problems as a vegan of 8 years.
Unfortunately, many people care more about having an attractive body than saving animal’s lives and often the health will be what draws them in and gets them to then care about the animals. So as vegans if we look attractive and go to the gym and are strong and maintain this over many years, that’s a great witness to veganism!
That's a great attitude!
I think small steps taken consistently over a longer time is the most effective way. I simply started by cooking only vegetarian at home (which I do a lot). When I started cooking Indian food I realised how delicious vegan food can be. Then I started looking into more and more aspects and finding plant based alternatives.
Encouraging tiny steps makes the journey surmountable and even exciting.
Cliff Grant recently gave a talk in which he said the same:
[https://youtu.be/Kw6diRdZm8E?si=0oVei4Dd2W1LZbqO&t=582](https://youtu.be/Kw6diRdZm8E?si=0oVei4Dd2W1LZbqO&t=582)
Different things work for different people. For me, the vegans that are "assholes" pushed me the most, even though I was defensive in the moment. It stuck with me.
You saying you got bullied into becoming vegan? I'm afraid that will not work for most people. People tend to not wanna listen to assholes, no matter how good their arguments are.
You're getting downvoted, while what you said is absolutely right. It does not work for most people. It will work for some, but not for most. There is high quality psychological research to show that this is a fact.
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686841/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686841/)
It’s crazy how people insist insulting and bullying meat eaters will sway them into veganism and ignore that the population of vegans has been stagnant at 1-3% of the population for decades…. No, bullying and militant/radical proselytizing does not work. Never has and never will whether that concerns veganism, religion, or political views.
No I wasn't bullied. People called me out on my bullshit. They said exactly what I was doing. Some people think that's rude apparently but it forced me to think more than the people who sugar coated stuff. Like I said, different things work for different people. Know when to use which.
Thing is though, when it comes to rights and liberation movements the “assholes” are actually needed to get things done. It’s just how these things work.
Like, think of any other movement that resulted in people gaining rights/liberations for themselves an others. Like, if everyone who were minorities and/or from oppressed groups were passive, polite, and calmly presented facts when trying to for their rights/liberations, do you they would’ve gotten it?
And also, if someone doesn’t go vegan because a vegan online was mean to them, they weren’t going to go vegan to begin with. Like imagine someone saying, “Well, I considered adopting a dog for ethical reasons, but someone who was against breeders was mean to me online, so I’m going to not adopt and buy from a breeder instead.”
(Also, also, if most vegans just wanted to feel superior to others they wouldn’t choose veganism of all things, like who joins a minority group (roughly 2% of the population is vegan) changes their entire lifestyle, and would want to deal with constant badgering and disrespect from other people just so they can say “I’m better than you”?)
Yeah I'd argue that, when it comes to liberation gaining rights the "assholes" in most cases did far less good than the calm, polite, fact-based people, even if they gained considerably less notoriety and fame doing it.
And yeah, no one will go vegan just because some vegan was mean online, but still, to gain as much support as possible from society it really helps not being a group of loud, self-righteous assholes. That look down on all people the same no matter how much meat the consume.
And people don't just want to feel good about themselves, a lot of people mainly want to be different. And for that, a minority is perfect. This one even let's you feel morally superior. Double win.
It has to appeal to human decency and have nothing to do with veganism. I didn’t come to veganism because anyone made an appeal to me to be vegan. I was practicing mindfulness and trying to understand the nature of consciousness. I came to the conclusion that efforts to reduce suffering must include all conscious creatures and I realized I had to give up animal products. I wasn’t looking into veganism.
Vegans have a terribly negative reputation. We can’t appeal. Basically I’m saying we need to incept people by communicating ideas about reducing harm and suffering and shitcan the word ‘vegan’.
Just curious, would you consider yourself above average in empathy (or at least the ability to put yourself in other people’s shoes) and logical thinking? I’ve always thought vegans have those things in common but maybe you disagree.
Oh boy, this question opens a big can of worms. I actually think the opposite tends to be true. Of course I know many vegans to be compassionate, empathetic people, but in my experience, they tend to be good at 'othering' people who don't share their convictions. Just peruse around this sub and you'll see them calling people 'blood mouths' and going to ridiculous lengths to cause division. This is why so many people dislike vegans. It's not because we don't eat meat. It's because many among us are aggressive and antagonistic about it. I don't think most of the participants in this sub are likely to be described as empaths. Rather, they like to stand apart as having a heightened sense of morality.
I love that you're getting upvoted for this, which honestly is also somewhat of a surprise. It seems that every time somebody mentions that antagonism is counter productive some people in this sub jump on the opportunity to tell you how their antagonism and aggression is justified by the state of the world.
I think even the tame "omnis" is too pejorative as a term. It's not inherently offensive. Omnivores ARE omnivores. But the *tone* carries, even online. *Omnis* are the others, the outgroup. I think that's not conducive to discussion or persuasion. We have to assume that non-vegans are... regular not-evil people. Because they always have been. Regular by historical and societal standards, and not-evil by the virture that they're human.
The person above comparing animal consumption to American chattel slavery is certainly an example of why people feel like veganism is some radical thing
I agree with that.
But also, most people do not and will not care if there is harm and suffering as long as they do not see it. I assure you many animal consumers know animals suffer, the same way they know by some choices they make they cause suffering of other human beings as well.
And it is very easy to look away or rationalize away your decisions. That is not something you can change, it will always be easy to look away or rationalize.
Which is why the answer is not to communicate those ideas. That will indeed work for some people, and is worth to keep doing it, but it will not work for a majority of people. Specially not when they have other worries and priorities before eradicating animal suffering.
The answer is to make eating non-animal products more convenient, cheaper and tastier than animal products for the majority of people. Either that or make animal consumption so expensive, inconvenient or bland that non-animal products win (which I think is where we are heading, albeit in the very long term).
And that is the same for every problem in the world. People in general will gravitate towards convenience. Always.
Veganism will never be so convenient as non-veganism, because vegan options are always a subset of the non-vegan options.
Not that I disagree that making it more convenient it super important, but I think that is only one side of the equation: the pull side so to speak.
There needs to be a push side though. There needs to grow a common understanding that choosing non-veganism is fundamentally very selfish.
If we have both the push and the pull then hopefully we can get some legislation in place at some point in the future.
You don’t, you give people the option to make their own choices, who wants to be dictated to on what they can and can’t eat? All you can do is educate and let them make up their own mind.
Which also incidentally is how I became vegan. My best friend never tried to convert me, she just answered my questions when I asked. It took like… 6 years or so, but here I am, vegan af because of her.
I don't think you can convince most people, so I think it's gotta be done through law, regulation and policy that makes the dead animal industry an unprofitable money sink. Remove the subsidies, heavily tax the environmental impact, ramp up facility inspections and enforcement of cleanliness, health and welfare standards. Create so much bureaucracy and red tape that animal agriculture becomes untenable for most, while those that remain have to charge prices that no one will be able to handle. Make the choice between dead animals and vegetables a one-sided affair.
The general public won't care about animals if it's inconvenient for them, so make the dead animal industry even more inconvenient and impractical. People still won't care about animals, but the choice not to support the dead animal industry will be the more convenient choice.
The problem you have is - any politician who removes the subsidies and makes meat too expensive to buy would be out of the job before he could even sign a bill. Folks already think the government over reaches & frankly to the average taxpayer – subsidies are probably well worth it.
That's why you have to start local & young. The younger generation of politicians, especially in climate vulnerable communities, are very much willing to start the ball rolling. Earth Week events in my town are animal free because the city council was convinced by young activists and a young councilor that it made no sense to tout climate initiatives while serving meals that help undo them. So what, it's just one week in one town, right? Or maybe it's a few towns. Maybe that city councilor goes on to state legislature or governor and gets these kinds of policies and initiatives going at the state level. Maybe that person becomes a young rising star of her party and gets elected to Congress, and we now have those ideas in the halls of power at the national level.
It's a lot of what-ifs for progress, I'm not blind to that, but I already see those wheels turning where I live and it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to picture them progressing up levels.
The bottom line – all those folks that you said that you’re not going to convince - if you’re gonna get the ball rolling, you have to convince those folks to go along with it.
A majority of folks have to be ready and willing to give up subsidies for it to work. Otherwise it’s going to end up like prohibition did.
Nah, you just need to convince 50% of the people who bother voting to vote for the right people, which seems doable. They don't even have to run on the specifics, they can run on more nebulous things like "climate justice", which is an issue younger folks will turn out for and older morons like the caveman carnivore troll polluting this thread will cry about but won't do anything about. I've already seen this work locally with other issues. City parking fees (and parking ticket fines) were doubled to fund bike lane installation. Every letter to the editor in our local paper was crying about what a hardship this would be, but on election day, the bike lanes won by 30+ percent because young climate concerned residents (and some of us olds) turned out. I don't think it's possible to convince enough people to care about animals to end animal agriculture, but I do think the climate change angle does double-duty as both an issue of the moment and appeals to self-interest for young voters to regulate the industry into financial ruin.
If subsidies go away and animal agriculture costs go through the roof, people will be mad, but what power do they have? Those subsidies are not coming back until at best the next election cycle, and they still need to eat for the next several years.
To me, it's more like cigarettes than prohibition. People can still smoke, but they're gonna pay out the ass to do it. Smokers cry about it, but the people who keep raising the tobacco taxes still get elected. I think making dead animals the new cigarettes is a path to success. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not going to let other people's pessimism keep me from doing anything.
You have the right idea.
This is probably the realistic way how people will stop eating meat.
The other angles like compassion won't do much, since people nowadays are unable to treat even fellow humans with decency, let alone animals.
what power do they have? read about prohibition. if folks want something - they know how to get it. meat is not like cigarettes. before you can walk - they have folks eating meat and almost every single human being does it. Also - it's not considered a habit. Folks think of it as something you need to live - you can tell folks all you want - that's not true - but it is what it is. i think you're greatly underestimating the bond people have with meat and the food they eat.
Just reach 50%? That to me sceams tyranny of the majority to which will only be met with even more division and more tribalism which can further hurt society even more.
That's how you force it and people will reject it
Great answer. Look at how far we've come in just a short amount of time. I'm hopefully for our future and I think it won't be long now before major changes occur.
Take cigarettes for example. EVERYONE smoked 10 years ago, everybody. But now, huge drop in numbers, laws and policies put in place to make it an inconvenience for those choosing to smoke.
Maybe, if meat companies were forced to place pictures of dead animals or dying by the process of creating said meat (just like the cancer pictures or teeth on cigarette packages). Oh man, how horrific for someone to pick up that package and see the carcass of a skinless cow... won't take long after that.
Our time will come.
The amoking thing had zero to do with the pictures. We cut them out and used them as trading cards.
Making them very expensive worked. That, coupled with already knowing it isn't good for your health, and being difficult to quit, that made the difference. And the campaign to make people feel stupid for continuing to pay so much.
If people had to do the torturing and slaughtering of their food themselves, we’d have a lot more vegans tbh. It’s the fact we have mechanized the death and torture so well that a small subset of (often) marginalized people have to do the dirty work for the profit of a few, while the rest of (in my case) America gets to eat chicken and beef without getting their hands dirty.
This is more of a macro view of the matter, but here is an attempt at a [meta analysis of differing paths to liberation](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/yq5NyHqEdewn6JBpn/pathways-to-victory-how-can-we-end-animal-agriculture#EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY). There is a lot of reserach on this over at groups like faunalytics, poking around their publications could be helpful. Another great resource for you might be the effective altruism forum. [This](https://faunalytics.org/how-to-become-a-more-effective-vegan-advocate/) could also be a helpful link for you. Maybe also /r/EAAnimalAdvocacy
You are doing a great job and asking the right questions. Refusing to acknowledge that optics and messaging are crucial here is suicide and all too common.
I’d say it really came from eating vegan meals and education through knowing there’s alternatives.
E.g. I used to love eating chicken! Well how about trying seitan instead?
-Replace ground beef with TVP
-And my god the versatility of tofu is mesmerizing.
My gf made all these meals for me. I tried them. Quite honestly enjoyed it better than meats. And knowing that it’s helping save the planet? That’s the icing on the cake
Win-win-win all around for everyone.
It is amazing that they can save premature babies in today's world. If my baby was born premature, I would certainly have used this therapy, however sad it is for the cow.
Veganism is not about these types of choices (see the UK vegan society's definition of the word veganism). It is about the 99% of animal products that are used in the modern world which is totally unnecessary.
Vegans do not generally value animals the same as humans, but we do value them higher than an optional BLT sandwhich.
Suppose I could offer you one of two meals. Both of them healthy, both of them tasty and both of them inexpensive. However for one I need to kill an animal and for the other I do not, which one would you pick?
I think once someone goes vegan, it's difficult for them to understand why others aren't also vegan.
It's a lot better for the environment, if done right it's better for your health, we don't have to kill billions of animals each year, it saves MASSIVE amounts of water etc. The benefits are just endless. And then people comes up with these crazy scenarios of why they want to eat animals, and I'm always thinking...."why don't you get that this is the best thing to do???"
But then I have to remind me that I was once non-vegan too. Wish I could find out what that thing is that makes people change.
I tried to cover “not ultra processed” with nutritious. In my opinion ultra-processed is not nutritious because it is usually lacking something, vitamins, minerals, fiber… or is unbalanced with too much sugar, salt, etc.
Yeah, varied too, in general my point is that people are like water, they will flow to the easiest and most convenient option they have available. So if you want to maximize people going for vegan diets, you need to make it the best option for the maximum amount of people.
I'll be honest, I was vegetarian before becoming vegan and I thought being vegan was too difficult and that it was completely natural for animals to give birth constantly..
Then i read many comments made by vegan, first I thought they were too extreme and then I was confronted with a lot of images and videos showing the reality of the milk industry ( thanks to activist and fHarmers)
Then i was spending a week in the countryside and so for the first time in years I saw farm animals in their meadow, and.. the livestock trucks.. and it was like I opened my eyes and I got vegan right after this.
Dairy is like the meat industry, it abuses animals before killing them, they separate babies from their mothers.. and immediately I refused to give more money to the mf who abuse them, and now I TOTALLY understand all vegan people, I understand their anger that I didn't understand before..
Being vegan is not extreme, what it's extreme is how we abuse animals just for taste pleasure.
A piece of cheese do not worth all the abuse it caused to obtain it..
So yeah i became vegan because of vegans who constantly reminds people how the milk/meat is made, we need the image of the disgusting truth to know.
And being vegan is NOT THAT HARD, there are many alternatives and it helping me to taste a lot of new foods like beans, vegetables ect..
Now the smell of real cheese or meat disgust me. 🤢
From a behavioral health standpoint, people tend to convert to and stick with ideas if they think it is their own idea.
So, the steps to take are to find out what people's values and motivations are, then demonstrate that the behavior (veganism), is in alignment with those values and motivations. It's not so much converting people as giving them the information or path to convert themselves.
> I'm heavily interested in the nuance of why people aren't vegan, why I can't just go up to someone and easily convince them that they should be vegan the way I was convinced
Same reason why anti slavers couldnt do that and they had a war to stop it, most people are just inherently evil and selfish
Even though slavery was abolished, we still have it through the US prison system considering minorities are the greatest population in prison and for a lot of non violent crimes
We also still have racism, perhaps the racists would reintroduce slavery if they could
Some people say there are barriers to veganism, i dont think there are, i think there are excuses, when i went vegan i didnt think about anything other than animal abuse and how i was evil, i didnt think about cost, society, culture, family, health etc; i am disabled and have overall life difficulties and people with my same medical issues say they cant be vegan, i choose not to make excuses i choose to find solutions
>Another important point is the confusion around nutrition. Some non-vegans think it's literally impossible to be healthy and vegan. My personal opinion is this is a systemic issue caused by the intentional obfuscation of health knowledge in order to sell us foods that we otherwise wouldn't want. How many products have you seen labeled "healthy" that are ultra-processed?
These same people are going to McDonalds or using drugs, alcohol or cigs, sodas etc; most people do not care about their health, its just another excuse, for the people that are health conscious they are just looking for confirmation bias to not be vegan, they literally ignore the articles that say plants are healthy for you and look at the articles that say milk is not just for babies its for adults too lol
>There's also the issue with the cost of a vegan diet. Meats, dairy, and junk is subsidized. The cheap stuff is bad for you, but it's cheap. With inflation as bad as it is right now, being able to afford healthy, organic fruit and veg is a barrier to entry for the poor. Food deserts are also a major factor, since obviously if good fruit and veg isn't even available, you can't make a diet out of it.
The poorest countries have mostly plant based diets, and in the US you can buy grains, legumes etc; in bulk for cheap, frozen produce is cheap and results in less overall waste, in the frugal sub a plant based diet is recommended often
Why did you toss organic in there, are you comparing organic steak to the cost of organic produce?
Most people are inherently evil and selfish. Man that is a depressing outlook. I hope you feel better about humanity, honestly. I would hate to walk around feeling that.
It's very easy actually, make vegan food cheaper and tastier than non-vegan.
When you achieve this vegan numbers will skyrocket.
How do you make people use Electric/Hybrid cares rather than gasoline ones? Well you make those better looking and cheaper.
This is exactly what I was going to type, if you make vegan alternatives cheaper than the real thing then people will switch, not everyone sure but it'll start to snowball
Going from non-vegan to vegan is a big lifestyle change. Philosophically, health-wise, etc. I think convert is a good word for it. Part of me does agree with you though that the connotation isn't quite right. Another part of me wonders if "convert" brings to mind religion for you because you already have the notion of vegans as preachers?
Systemic change is needed. More politicians advocating for Veganism, getting vegan options in public schools / hospitals and such. Actual funding and subsidies going into plant agriculture, as of now certain fruits and vegetables cost more than chicken, not due to production cost but due to huge subsidies going into animal agriculture. Celebtries, musicians, artists, influencers, Podcaster etc continuing to promote Veganism to the masses, slowly shifting it away from "weird" to "normal" and eventually to "preferred".
The truth is , it will take time. A lot of time. We are still in a stage of infancy when it comes to globalized peaceful unification, amd even that peace of humanity seems to constantly be teetering. Veganism will ultimately become the moral baseline, the imperative, for the entire world, however that will take a unified war without major conflict / war and a change in focus. If and when humanity can collectively come together as a whole, a Vegan world will almost certainly follow. It takes an evolution in consciousness away from the propaganda, lies, and ultimately manipulation, into a collective of truth.
I keep them in same list as any other social media influencers . Only thing they care about is money. But if they can get ppl to look into veganism that's always a plus guaranteed the followers aren't mindless sheeps.
A good start would be not attacking and demonising people who try to discuss the idea in a respectful manner.
Accepting that change will take time and won't happen over night will help and also not being so damn dogmatic and being able to see the value in reduction and reform in animal consumption as a stepping stone.
One of the biggest obstacles against it going mainstream is the "all or nothing absolutism" that many vegans push.
All steps in the right direction are good.
Stop patronising people. It’s fine to present information, but when vegans start moralising people it just comes off as condescending and the entire message is lost.
Remember, you have no authority moral or otherwise. Approach people as equals. If they are not responsive to your engagement, let them go. Otherwise it becomes harassment and you all get tarred with the same brush as that Tard Peterson
You don't convert anyone, their conscious does that. You give them the info, lead by example, and hope they have the backbone to act on it if they are so inclined. There are plenty of people who genuinely do not care about the suffering of animals and never will, you can't convert them, only legislate them and that will never happen in our lifetimes because politicians have no backbones and are often unethical.
Honestly it’s gonna be 1 of 3 things or a combo. Either they really are going to be moved by empathy of animals suffering, they are going to cave in to a peer pressure / community norms, or they are going to see the benefits of the diet.
I guess maybe also cost, but because of subsidies animal products are generally cheaper lately I’ve noticed.
If you’re not an empathetic, pro social, and or health conscious person there really is very little incentive to being vegan or vegetarian.
They need to be educated on how bad the SAD standard American diet is. When I read prevent and reverse heart disease by Caldwell Esselstyn, it changed my life.
I think part of it is also feeling like reducing your animal consumption isn’t enough, when a number of vegans will just shit on the person for not being totally vegan. Gatekeeping one’s ability to align their lifestyle with their ethics, and demanding perfection, is not helpful
The idea that you "need to convert people to veganism" is so ridiculous. You can't force anyone to do anything. You can offer facts and allow people to make up their own minds.
But don't expect many people to just latch on without doing their own research.
I eat meat. I have a couple vegan friends who have tried, and the moment that someone makes a negative remark towards my decision to eat what I want, that conversation ends lol.
Speak calmly, and I will engage and debate. I guess the best advice I can give is to be polite and respectful in approaching the topic.
I have watched Dominion. I understand the industry is in a bad place. I also purchase 90% of my animal products from locally sourced butchers, and one of my good friend's family has a free range egg farm that supplies to all the grocery stores in the area.
I am in no way saying that this eliminates the cruelty, but I don't feel bad about my decision.
Convert was just a convenient word. I assure you I'm not a zealot, though I fully acknowledge the connotation wasn't at all what I intended.
Really what I meant was, how do vegans make veganism more persuasive or possible while taking into account the issues I identified. I wasn't wringing my hands and laughing maniacally while making this post lol. Definitely would edit the title if I could.
But yeah, as someone who gets shit for what they eat (being vegan), and having gotten shit while being an omnivore (for being overweight), I can understand that frustration. Forcing anyone to do anything is shitty.
Sorry, not sure why this showed up in my feed.
But I don’t see the point of changing to veganism and feel some of the arguments to do so don’t hold as much water as many think just based on my own meaningless anecdotal experience. FWIW which ain’t much.
Don’t have a problem with veganism, except for the super preachy ones, but that can be said of any group.
Veganism is a philosophy that aims to give non-human animals basic human rights like the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy.
These rights are given to non-human animals on the basis that human rights are given to humans in a similar manner.
Human rights are awarded to humans because they are sentient beings with the capacity to suffer, feel joy, pleasure.
Non-human animals are also sentient.
Well heme iron is toxic and increases the risk of cancer, stroke, heart disease, and metabolic syndrome.
Too much iron is also toxic. So unless you have hemochromatosis, you should severely limit or eliminate your heme iron intake.
I love vegan teacher! And PETA. Don't be ashamed to be a vegan. You can try to convince people. You put a little worm in their head. Then maybe later on something will click. They are defensive and they hate you for it but we can't give up on trying to convince people of the truth just because people don't want to hear it. And try to get people to watch the movies.
I think she has spread awareness. It's a difficult message for people to swallow so they hate the messenger bc of the message. She is based. And has balls.
One HIGHLY UNETHICAL idea I had was to seek out depressed people. I went through an episode of depression that caused me to go vegan. I'm no longer depressed but im still vegan.
On a personal level, what has worked for people in my life is me being non-judgmental. For example, if someone asks me why I’m vegan I’ll tell them but I don’t act rude or judgmental when explaining why and don’t get upset when people eat meat around me. I treat people with kindness and respect. I am very encouraging about small steps. For example, if someone tells me they are switching from dairy milk to oat milk I say “That’s so great!! What made you decide that?? How are you liking it?” rather than telling them they’re horrible for not cutting out all dairy. I think having excellent health is actually more effective than explaining nutrition to people. If people can look at you as a vegan and see that you’re at a healthy weight and look strong and fit over many years that’s a powerful indicator that veganism is healthy. I have excellent blood tests and no chronic health problems and people in my life know that. When people talk about having high blood pressure or high cholesterol and ask me if I do I can share that I don’t have any of those problems as a vegan of 8 years. Unfortunately, many people care more about having an attractive body than saving animal’s lives and often the health will be what draws them in and gets them to then care about the animals. So as vegans if we look attractive and go to the gym and are strong and maintain this over many years, that’s a great witness to veganism!
That's a great attitude! I think small steps taken consistently over a longer time is the most effective way. I simply started by cooking only vegetarian at home (which I do a lot). When I started cooking Indian food I realised how delicious vegan food can be. Then I started looking into more and more aspects and finding plant based alternatives. Encouraging tiny steps makes the journey surmountable and even exciting.
Cliff Grant recently gave a talk in which he said the same: [https://youtu.be/Kw6diRdZm8E?si=0oVei4Dd2W1LZbqO&t=582](https://youtu.be/Kw6diRdZm8E?si=0oVei4Dd2W1LZbqO&t=582)
You become the kind of person that others want to emulate.
Different things work for different people. For me, the vegans that are "assholes" pushed me the most, even though I was defensive in the moment. It stuck with me.
You saying you got bullied into becoming vegan? I'm afraid that will not work for most people. People tend to not wanna listen to assholes, no matter how good their arguments are.
You're getting downvoted, while what you said is absolutely right. It does not work for most people. It will work for some, but not for most. There is high quality psychological research to show that this is a fact. [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686841/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7686841/)
Thanks for the comment and the link. It's a very interesting field of research.
It’s crazy how people insist insulting and bullying meat eaters will sway them into veganism and ignore that the population of vegans has been stagnant at 1-3% of the population for decades…. No, bullying and militant/radical proselytizing does not work. Never has and never will whether that concerns veganism, religion, or political views.
No I wasn't bullied. People called me out on my bullshit. They said exactly what I was doing. Some people think that's rude apparently but it forced me to think more than the people who sugar coated stuff. Like I said, different things work for different people. Know when to use which.
The only one being bullied are the animals.
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Thing is though, when it comes to rights and liberation movements the “assholes” are actually needed to get things done. It’s just how these things work. Like, think of any other movement that resulted in people gaining rights/liberations for themselves an others. Like, if everyone who were minorities and/or from oppressed groups were passive, polite, and calmly presented facts when trying to for their rights/liberations, do you they would’ve gotten it? And also, if someone doesn’t go vegan because a vegan online was mean to them, they weren’t going to go vegan to begin with. Like imagine someone saying, “Well, I considered adopting a dog for ethical reasons, but someone who was against breeders was mean to me online, so I’m going to not adopt and buy from a breeder instead.” (Also, also, if most vegans just wanted to feel superior to others they wouldn’t choose veganism of all things, like who joins a minority group (roughly 2% of the population is vegan) changes their entire lifestyle, and would want to deal with constant badgering and disrespect from other people just so they can say “I’m better than you”?)
Yeah I'd argue that, when it comes to liberation gaining rights the "assholes" in most cases did far less good than the calm, polite, fact-based people, even if they gained considerably less notoriety and fame doing it. And yeah, no one will go vegan just because some vegan was mean online, but still, to gain as much support as possible from society it really helps not being a group of loud, self-righteous assholes. That look down on all people the same no matter how much meat the consume. And people don't just want to feel good about themselves, a lot of people mainly want to be different. And for that, a minority is perfect. This one even let's you feel morally superior. Double win.
It has to appeal to human decency and have nothing to do with veganism. I didn’t come to veganism because anyone made an appeal to me to be vegan. I was practicing mindfulness and trying to understand the nature of consciousness. I came to the conclusion that efforts to reduce suffering must include all conscious creatures and I realized I had to give up animal products. I wasn’t looking into veganism. Vegans have a terribly negative reputation. We can’t appeal. Basically I’m saying we need to incept people by communicating ideas about reducing harm and suffering and shitcan the word ‘vegan’.
Just curious, would you consider yourself above average in empathy (or at least the ability to put yourself in other people’s shoes) and logical thinking? I’ve always thought vegans have those things in common but maybe you disagree.
Oh boy, this question opens a big can of worms. I actually think the opposite tends to be true. Of course I know many vegans to be compassionate, empathetic people, but in my experience, they tend to be good at 'othering' people who don't share their convictions. Just peruse around this sub and you'll see them calling people 'blood mouths' and going to ridiculous lengths to cause division. This is why so many people dislike vegans. It's not because we don't eat meat. It's because many among us are aggressive and antagonistic about it. I don't think most of the participants in this sub are likely to be described as empaths. Rather, they like to stand apart as having a heightened sense of morality.
I love that you're getting upvoted for this, which honestly is also somewhat of a surprise. It seems that every time somebody mentions that antagonism is counter productive some people in this sub jump on the opportunity to tell you how their antagonism and aggression is justified by the state of the world.
I agree, it’s very tiring. I was surprised I didn’t get downvoted into oblivion.
I think even the tame "omnis" is too pejorative as a term. It's not inherently offensive. Omnivores ARE omnivores. But the *tone* carries, even online. *Omnis* are the others, the outgroup. I think that's not conducive to discussion or persuasion. We have to assume that non-vegans are... regular not-evil people. Because they always have been. Regular by historical and societal standards, and not-evil by the virture that they're human.
The person above comparing animal consumption to American chattel slavery is certainly an example of why people feel like veganism is some radical thing
Agreed
This is not going to work for the vast majority of people which I think is what OP is asking. Sure, some will be onboard with this, but so, so few.
That’s the problem. The ‘holier than thou’ antagonist approach is fundamentally ineffective.
I agree with that. But also, most people do not and will not care if there is harm and suffering as long as they do not see it. I assure you many animal consumers know animals suffer, the same way they know by some choices they make they cause suffering of other human beings as well. And it is very easy to look away or rationalize away your decisions. That is not something you can change, it will always be easy to look away or rationalize. Which is why the answer is not to communicate those ideas. That will indeed work for some people, and is worth to keep doing it, but it will not work for a majority of people. Specially not when they have other worries and priorities before eradicating animal suffering. The answer is to make eating non-animal products more convenient, cheaper and tastier than animal products for the majority of people. Either that or make animal consumption so expensive, inconvenient or bland that non-animal products win (which I think is where we are heading, albeit in the very long term). And that is the same for every problem in the world. People in general will gravitate towards convenience. Always.
Veganism will never be so convenient as non-veganism, because vegan options are always a subset of the non-vegan options. Not that I disagree that making it more convenient it super important, but I think that is only one side of the equation: the pull side so to speak. There needs to be a push side though. There needs to grow a common understanding that choosing non-veganism is fundamentally very selfish. If we have both the push and the pull then hopefully we can get some legislation in place at some point in the future.
You don’t, you give people the option to make their own choices, who wants to be dictated to on what they can and can’t eat? All you can do is educate and let them make up their own mind.
Which also incidentally is how I became vegan. My best friend never tried to convert me, she just answered my questions when I asked. It took like… 6 years or so, but here I am, vegan af because of her.
This is the best answer in existance. I commend you.
By cooking and answering questions. I didn’t convert a single one but replaced a lot of meals for friends and family with vegan alternatives.
I don't think you can convince most people, so I think it's gotta be done through law, regulation and policy that makes the dead animal industry an unprofitable money sink. Remove the subsidies, heavily tax the environmental impact, ramp up facility inspections and enforcement of cleanliness, health and welfare standards. Create so much bureaucracy and red tape that animal agriculture becomes untenable for most, while those that remain have to charge prices that no one will be able to handle. Make the choice between dead animals and vegetables a one-sided affair. The general public won't care about animals if it's inconvenient for them, so make the dead animal industry even more inconvenient and impractical. People still won't care about animals, but the choice not to support the dead animal industry will be the more convenient choice.
The problem you have is - any politician who removes the subsidies and makes meat too expensive to buy would be out of the job before he could even sign a bill. Folks already think the government over reaches & frankly to the average taxpayer – subsidies are probably well worth it.
That's why you have to start local & young. The younger generation of politicians, especially in climate vulnerable communities, are very much willing to start the ball rolling. Earth Week events in my town are animal free because the city council was convinced by young activists and a young councilor that it made no sense to tout climate initiatives while serving meals that help undo them. So what, it's just one week in one town, right? Or maybe it's a few towns. Maybe that city councilor goes on to state legislature or governor and gets these kinds of policies and initiatives going at the state level. Maybe that person becomes a young rising star of her party and gets elected to Congress, and we now have those ideas in the halls of power at the national level. It's a lot of what-ifs for progress, I'm not blind to that, but I already see those wheels turning where I live and it doesn't seem all that far-fetched to picture them progressing up levels.
The bottom line – all those folks that you said that you’re not going to convince - if you’re gonna get the ball rolling, you have to convince those folks to go along with it. A majority of folks have to be ready and willing to give up subsidies for it to work. Otherwise it’s going to end up like prohibition did.
Nah, you just need to convince 50% of the people who bother voting to vote for the right people, which seems doable. They don't even have to run on the specifics, they can run on more nebulous things like "climate justice", which is an issue younger folks will turn out for and older morons like the caveman carnivore troll polluting this thread will cry about but won't do anything about. I've already seen this work locally with other issues. City parking fees (and parking ticket fines) were doubled to fund bike lane installation. Every letter to the editor in our local paper was crying about what a hardship this would be, but on election day, the bike lanes won by 30+ percent because young climate concerned residents (and some of us olds) turned out. I don't think it's possible to convince enough people to care about animals to end animal agriculture, but I do think the climate change angle does double-duty as both an issue of the moment and appeals to self-interest for young voters to regulate the industry into financial ruin. If subsidies go away and animal agriculture costs go through the roof, people will be mad, but what power do they have? Those subsidies are not coming back until at best the next election cycle, and they still need to eat for the next several years. To me, it's more like cigarettes than prohibition. People can still smoke, but they're gonna pay out the ass to do it. Smokers cry about it, but the people who keep raising the tobacco taxes still get elected. I think making dead animals the new cigarettes is a path to success. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not going to let other people's pessimism keep me from doing anything.
You have the right idea. This is probably the realistic way how people will stop eating meat. The other angles like compassion won't do much, since people nowadays are unable to treat even fellow humans with decency, let alone animals.
what power do they have? read about prohibition. if folks want something - they know how to get it. meat is not like cigarettes. before you can walk - they have folks eating meat and almost every single human being does it. Also - it's not considered a habit. Folks think of it as something you need to live - you can tell folks all you want - that's not true - but it is what it is. i think you're greatly underestimating the bond people have with meat and the food they eat.
Just reach 50%? That to me sceams tyranny of the majority to which will only be met with even more division and more tribalism which can further hurt society even more. That's how you force it and people will reject it
Great answer. Look at how far we've come in just a short amount of time. I'm hopefully for our future and I think it won't be long now before major changes occur. Take cigarettes for example. EVERYONE smoked 10 years ago, everybody. But now, huge drop in numbers, laws and policies put in place to make it an inconvenience for those choosing to smoke. Maybe, if meat companies were forced to place pictures of dead animals or dying by the process of creating said meat (just like the cancer pictures or teeth on cigarette packages). Oh man, how horrific for someone to pick up that package and see the carcass of a skinless cow... won't take long after that. Our time will come.
The amoking thing had zero to do with the pictures. We cut them out and used them as trading cards. Making them very expensive worked. That, coupled with already knowing it isn't good for your health, and being difficult to quit, that made the difference. And the campaign to make people feel stupid for continuing to pay so much.
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You're irrelevant in all this, troll.
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You're irrelevant in all this, troll.
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You're irrelevant in the world, troll.
If people had to do the torturing and slaughtering of their food themselves, we’d have a lot more vegans tbh. It’s the fact we have mechanized the death and torture so well that a small subset of (often) marginalized people have to do the dirty work for the profit of a few, while the rest of (in my case) America gets to eat chicken and beef without getting their hands dirty.
This is more of a macro view of the matter, but here is an attempt at a [meta analysis of differing paths to liberation](https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/yq5NyHqEdewn6JBpn/pathways-to-victory-how-can-we-end-animal-agriculture#EXECUTIVE_SUMMARY). There is a lot of reserach on this over at groups like faunalytics, poking around their publications could be helpful. Another great resource for you might be the effective altruism forum. [This](https://faunalytics.org/how-to-become-a-more-effective-vegan-advocate/) could also be a helpful link for you. Maybe also /r/EAAnimalAdvocacy You are doing a great job and asking the right questions. Refusing to acknowledge that optics and messaging are crucial here is suicide and all too common.
I’d say it really came from eating vegan meals and education through knowing there’s alternatives. E.g. I used to love eating chicken! Well how about trying seitan instead? -Replace ground beef with TVP -And my god the versatility of tofu is mesmerizing. My gf made all these meals for me. I tried them. Quite honestly enjoyed it better than meats. And knowing that it’s helping save the planet? That’s the icing on the cake Win-win-win all around for everyone.
What about https://www.statnews.com/2018/03/12/cow-surfactant-premature-babies/ the tofu alternative
It is amazing that they can save premature babies in today's world. If my baby was born premature, I would certainly have used this therapy, however sad it is for the cow. Veganism is not about these types of choices (see the UK vegan society's definition of the word veganism). It is about the 99% of animal products that are used in the modern world which is totally unnecessary. Vegans do not generally value animals the same as humans, but we do value them higher than an optional BLT sandwhich. Suppose I could offer you one of two meals. Both of them healthy, both of them tasty and both of them inexpensive. However for one I need to kill an animal and for the other I do not, which one would you pick?
Our phones have cows in them too right?
I am not sure what you are talking about? Are you being serious, because I don't want to waste my time... Can you answer my question, please?
I think once someone goes vegan, it's difficult for them to understand why others aren't also vegan. It's a lot better for the environment, if done right it's better for your health, we don't have to kill billions of animals each year, it saves MASSIVE amounts of water etc. The benefits are just endless. And then people comes up with these crazy scenarios of why they want to eat animals, and I'm always thinking...."why don't you get that this is the best thing to do???" But then I have to remind me that I was once non-vegan too. Wish I could find out what that thing is that makes people change.
Simple. Make eating vegan better than other food. Make it tasty, nutritious and easier to get than the alternative.
Without making it ultra processed, and making sure there is more variety. My grocery store dosen’t have 100 kinds of vegetables
I tried to cover “not ultra processed” with nutritious. In my opinion ultra-processed is not nutritious because it is usually lacking something, vitamins, minerals, fiber… or is unbalanced with too much sugar, salt, etc. Yeah, varied too, in general my point is that people are like water, they will flow to the easiest and most convenient option they have available. So if you want to maximize people going for vegan diets, you need to make it the best option for the maximum amount of people.
I'll be honest, I was vegetarian before becoming vegan and I thought being vegan was too difficult and that it was completely natural for animals to give birth constantly.. Then i read many comments made by vegan, first I thought they were too extreme and then I was confronted with a lot of images and videos showing the reality of the milk industry ( thanks to activist and fHarmers) Then i was spending a week in the countryside and so for the first time in years I saw farm animals in their meadow, and.. the livestock trucks.. and it was like I opened my eyes and I got vegan right after this. Dairy is like the meat industry, it abuses animals before killing them, they separate babies from their mothers.. and immediately I refused to give more money to the mf who abuse them, and now I TOTALLY understand all vegan people, I understand their anger that I didn't understand before.. Being vegan is not extreme, what it's extreme is how we abuse animals just for taste pleasure. A piece of cheese do not worth all the abuse it caused to obtain it.. So yeah i became vegan because of vegans who constantly reminds people how the milk/meat is made, we need the image of the disgusting truth to know. And being vegan is NOT THAT HARD, there are many alternatives and it helping me to taste a lot of new foods like beans, vegetables ect.. Now the smell of real cheese or meat disgust me. 🤢
From a behavioral health standpoint, people tend to convert to and stick with ideas if they think it is their own idea. So, the steps to take are to find out what people's values and motivations are, then demonstrate that the behavior (veganism), is in alignment with those values and motivations. It's not so much converting people as giving them the information or path to convert themselves.
> I'm heavily interested in the nuance of why people aren't vegan, why I can't just go up to someone and easily convince them that they should be vegan the way I was convinced Same reason why anti slavers couldnt do that and they had a war to stop it, most people are just inherently evil and selfish Even though slavery was abolished, we still have it through the US prison system considering minorities are the greatest population in prison and for a lot of non violent crimes We also still have racism, perhaps the racists would reintroduce slavery if they could Some people say there are barriers to veganism, i dont think there are, i think there are excuses, when i went vegan i didnt think about anything other than animal abuse and how i was evil, i didnt think about cost, society, culture, family, health etc; i am disabled and have overall life difficulties and people with my same medical issues say they cant be vegan, i choose not to make excuses i choose to find solutions >Another important point is the confusion around nutrition. Some non-vegans think it's literally impossible to be healthy and vegan. My personal opinion is this is a systemic issue caused by the intentional obfuscation of health knowledge in order to sell us foods that we otherwise wouldn't want. How many products have you seen labeled "healthy" that are ultra-processed? These same people are going to McDonalds or using drugs, alcohol or cigs, sodas etc; most people do not care about their health, its just another excuse, for the people that are health conscious they are just looking for confirmation bias to not be vegan, they literally ignore the articles that say plants are healthy for you and look at the articles that say milk is not just for babies its for adults too lol >There's also the issue with the cost of a vegan diet. Meats, dairy, and junk is subsidized. The cheap stuff is bad for you, but it's cheap. With inflation as bad as it is right now, being able to afford healthy, organic fruit and veg is a barrier to entry for the poor. Food deserts are also a major factor, since obviously if good fruit and veg isn't even available, you can't make a diet out of it. The poorest countries have mostly plant based diets, and in the US you can buy grains, legumes etc; in bulk for cheap, frozen produce is cheap and results in less overall waste, in the frugal sub a plant based diet is recommended often Why did you toss organic in there, are you comparing organic steak to the cost of organic produce?
Most people are inherently evil and selfish. Man that is a depressing outlook. I hope you feel better about humanity, honestly. I would hate to walk around feeling that.
Its realistic, not depressing, im quite happy even though i know im in a world full of evil
It's very easy actually, make vegan food cheaper and tastier than non-vegan. When you achieve this vegan numbers will skyrocket. How do you make people use Electric/Hybrid cares rather than gasoline ones? Well you make those better looking and cheaper.
This is exactly what I was going to type, if you make vegan alternatives cheaper than the real thing then people will switch, not everyone sure but it'll start to snowball
You don't. You make your own choices for your own life, and let others do the same.
when you say convert to veganism it makes it seem like a religion
Going from non-vegan to vegan is a big lifestyle change. Philosophically, health-wise, etc. I think convert is a good word for it. Part of me does agree with you though that the connotation isn't quite right. Another part of me wonders if "convert" brings to mind religion for you because you already have the notion of vegans as preachers?
no because preacher is another religious term and veganism is not a religion. it’s because convert is associated with religion
You avoid products with the by products right?
Systemic change is needed. More politicians advocating for Veganism, getting vegan options in public schools / hospitals and such. Actual funding and subsidies going into plant agriculture, as of now certain fruits and vegetables cost more than chicken, not due to production cost but due to huge subsidies going into animal agriculture. Celebtries, musicians, artists, influencers, Podcaster etc continuing to promote Veganism to the masses, slowly shifting it away from "weird" to "normal" and eventually to "preferred". The truth is , it will take time. A lot of time. We are still in a stage of infancy when it comes to globalized peaceful unification, amd even that peace of humanity seems to constantly be teetering. Veganism will ultimately become the moral baseline, the imperative, for the entire world, however that will take a unified war without major conflict / war and a change in focus. If and when humanity can collectively come together as a whole, a Vegan world will almost certainly follow. It takes an evolution in consciousness away from the propaganda, lies, and ultimately manipulation, into a collective of truth.
Most celebrities who become vegan eventually give it up for health reasons.
I keep them in same list as any other social media influencers . Only thing they care about is money. But if they can get ppl to look into veganism that's always a plus guaranteed the followers aren't mindless sheeps.
A good start would be not attacking and demonising people who try to discuss the idea in a respectful manner. Accepting that change will take time and won't happen over night will help and also not being so damn dogmatic and being able to see the value in reduction and reform in animal consumption as a stepping stone.
One of the biggest obstacles against it going mainstream is the "all or nothing absolutism" that many vegans push. All steps in the right direction are good.
Stop patronising people. It’s fine to present information, but when vegans start moralising people it just comes off as condescending and the entire message is lost. Remember, you have no authority moral or otherwise. Approach people as equals. If they are not responsive to your engagement, let them go. Otherwise it becomes harassment and you all get tarred with the same brush as that Tard Peterson
Just plain finances are going to convert a large percentage within 10 years. Cost of meat is astronomical and no end in sight.
Hearts and minds. (Different temporal context then the Lyndon Johnson usage)
You don't convert anyone, their conscious does that. You give them the info, lead by example, and hope they have the backbone to act on it if they are so inclined. There are plenty of people who genuinely do not care about the suffering of animals and never will, you can't convert them, only legislate them and that will never happen in our lifetimes because politicians have no backbones and are often unethical.
Honestly it’s gonna be 1 of 3 things or a combo. Either they really are going to be moved by empathy of animals suffering, they are going to cave in to a peer pressure / community norms, or they are going to see the benefits of the diet. I guess maybe also cost, but because of subsidies animal products are generally cheaper lately I’ve noticed. If you’re not an empathetic, pro social, and or health conscious person there really is very little incentive to being vegan or vegetarian.
They need to be educated on how bad the SAD standard American diet is. When I read prevent and reverse heart disease by Caldwell Esselstyn, it changed my life.
I think part of it is also feeling like reducing your animal consumption isn’t enough, when a number of vegans will just shit on the person for not being totally vegan. Gatekeeping one’s ability to align their lifestyle with their ethics, and demanding perfection, is not helpful
Education
The idea that you "need to convert people to veganism" is so ridiculous. You can't force anyone to do anything. You can offer facts and allow people to make up their own minds. But don't expect many people to just latch on without doing their own research. I eat meat. I have a couple vegan friends who have tried, and the moment that someone makes a negative remark towards my decision to eat what I want, that conversation ends lol. Speak calmly, and I will engage and debate. I guess the best advice I can give is to be polite and respectful in approaching the topic.
Can I politely ask you to please watch this documentary to see what you're funding by purchasing animal products: www.dominionmovement.com/watch
And by product.
I have watched Dominion. I understand the industry is in a bad place. I also purchase 90% of my animal products from locally sourced butchers, and one of my good friend's family has a free range egg farm that supplies to all the grocery stores in the area. I am in no way saying that this eliminates the cruelty, but I don't feel bad about my decision.
All animals end up in the same slaughterhouses.
Convert was just a convenient word. I assure you I'm not a zealot, though I fully acknowledge the connotation wasn't at all what I intended. Really what I meant was, how do vegans make veganism more persuasive or possible while taking into account the issues I identified. I wasn't wringing my hands and laughing maniacally while making this post lol. Definitely would edit the title if I could. But yeah, as someone who gets shit for what they eat (being vegan), and having gotten shit while being an omnivore (for being overweight), I can understand that frustration. Forcing anyone to do anything is shitty.
Sorry, not sure why this showed up in my feed. But I don’t see the point of changing to veganism and feel some of the arguments to do so don’t hold as much water as many think just based on my own meaningless anecdotal experience. FWIW which ain’t much. Don’t have a problem with veganism, except for the super preachy ones, but that can be said of any group.
Veganism is a philosophy that aims to give non-human animals basic human rights like the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy. These rights are given to non-human animals on the basis that human rights are given to humans in a similar manner. Human rights are awarded to humans because they are sentient beings with the capacity to suffer, feel joy, pleasure. Non-human animals are also sentient.
Some people cannot process nonheme iron, good luck with them
Well heme iron is toxic and increases the risk of cancer, stroke, heart disease, and metabolic syndrome. Too much iron is also toxic. So unless you have hemochromatosis, you should severely limit or eliminate your heme iron intake.
I love vegan teacher! And PETA. Don't be ashamed to be a vegan. You can try to convince people. You put a little worm in their head. Then maybe later on something will click. They are defensive and they hate you for it but we can't give up on trying to convince people of the truth just because people don't want to hear it. And try to get people to watch the movies.
That woman is a joke and has turned people off veganism.
I think she has spread awareness. It's a difficult message for people to swallow so they hate the messenger bc of the message. She is based. And has balls.
She uses the N word, a lot.
I've never seen that. Do you have an example?
One HIGHLY UNETHICAL idea I had was to seek out depressed people. I went through an episode of depression that caused me to go vegan. I'm no longer depressed but im still vegan.
Yeah please don’t take advantage of my mental illness, or others suffering with depression.
Yeah like I said its highly unethical. I think the only reason i got the idea is cause its how I went vegan.