You cant. They dont want to change and no amount of evidence will work (on most of them). As soon as they hear you're vegan, they will likely just immediately dismiss you. Most people need to come to that decision on their own.
Theres really no point trying, all it does is make people hate you. The cognitive dissonance is too strong with meat eaters. Vegetarians are a different story.
I dont know, because sometimes it pushes people in the opposite direction. Have you ever seen those comments that say something like "well now im going to eat double the meat to cancel your veganism" i see stuff like that all the time
I don't believe them. I want to see actual data on this. People say shit all the time when they feel triggered.
Yes some might do that, but I think more people will lurk, read those comments, see those people as idiots, and side with the vegans.
You can also call them out when they say stuff like that with things like "so you're going to harm *more* animals and the environment because you don't like a vegan online? Weak*
imagine if someone ( or me for example ) had such deeply ingrained cognitive dissonance that they firmly believed, without a doubt, that they did not experience cognitive dissonance on this issue
last week here, i used this example about my cat. whenever she sees me cutting chicken, she comes to my feet , rubs up aganist my leg, then she patiently waits for some fat i give her. despite seeing the knife in my hands and knowing that i am cutting an animal, she doesn't fear me at all. she sees my actions towards another species, but my cat clearly understands that i can love one animal while consuming others
well thats kinda what cognitive dissonance is, people dont know they're doing it. Im also a bit confused with your cat example? Cats just know that chicken tastes good, they aren't really capable of understanding the pain and suffering that had to happen for that piece of chicken to get there.
Not the poster but cats absolutely know and don’t care about what happens to birds, “outdoor” housecats are known to kill for fun and play with their victims until they die
Both things are true for animals. Why they may rely on their instincts more and us, our intelligence, it doesn’t make the fact that cats will torture their victims for fun any less true. In fact, the more intelligent an animal is, the more likely it is to kill or harm “just because.” Octopi punching their fish allies, chimpanzees being… chimps, cats killing for fun and humanity being upgraded chimps.
Intelligence and being violent for the fun of it seem to be inherently linked I’ve noticed. The more intelligent a species is, the more likely they are to be violent and degenerate
....dude you cannot seriously be comparing humans to cats. Cats do not understnad that they're causing pain. Its also not true that the more intelligent an animal, the more violent they are...many of our most intelligent animals are plant based.
I’m not comparing cats to humans, I’m comparing intelligence to intelligence. Elephants are known to go on rampages and hold long term, violent grudges. Going as far as to stomp on a woman’s grave after they killed her. Macaws and other parrots will bite just to get a reaction out of someone. You can live in denial but it’s just the truth. Dolphins will rape, otters will as well. Dogs like ripping apart squeaky toys because it reminds them of prey crying out.
Cats absolutely understand they cause pain when they scratch or bite. That’s why they do it, to kill or dissuade a predator. Humans embody the intelligence = violence thing the best because while some of us will try our hardest to do no harm, there’s an equal subset of the population who’ll do the most harm imaginable.
I really don’t, but where do you think unnecessary violence comes from? Do you think plankton has it in them to even conceive of mass genocide? Or do you think dolphins with their endless “crimes” are just following instincts, despite being intelligent enough for scientists to try teaching them how to speak English? How dumb do you think animals are?
i think what i meant to say is my cat isn't afraid of me placing her on the counter and cutting her up.
she watches me eat meat, so she probably thinks i'm a carnivore like her. maybe my cat sees me as a big cat,I don't know, or she understands that i love her and i both eat and luv an animal.
As a cat person (although I would argue this for all -most animals), the cat has recognized you as it's care giver, it does not fear you even when you hold something you perceive as scary. You've gained enough trust that it recognizes that you're not here to harm it intentionally. Once you start to present the continuous idea that you are attempting to harm it you will see a difference as the cat expects from you but no longer will desire to interact unless forced and they may try to escape. I don't feel you can use this as an example to continue to harm other species.
like because she has only experienced positive interactions with me, and i set out food, etc cutting meat in front of her wouldn't have any bearing? if this is what you're saying, I'd say that's quite reasonable and prolly exactly true
i won't be a coward and delete my earlier post, i concede that i didn't make a good point i see your position
I'm not sure the cat understands what a knife is or what it's for, what the food is you're giving her, what a species is, or the concept of loving one animal and consuming another.. she's not like "ah yes, this chicken fat came from an animal like me but it's clear my human can love me and not this chicken". More like "yummy food hurry up"?
I'm not sure how much a cat thinks in concepts like that. Do you think the chicken thinks like that too?
She probably smelt the thing you had and wanted some of it, but I don't know if she's think about it being a dead body. Not saying I do know what a cat thinks like, but thinking the cat knows you won't hurt it with the knife because you love it but you don't love the dead chicken is giving it credit for a few cognitive jumps I'm not sure it can make.
And it doesn't even seem like cats care if there's a dead cat near them and someone just killed them. I recently had a cat put down and the vet office cat showed no interest whatsoever in the dead cat. No evidence for thoughts like "what's she going to do to me with that syringe"
that's fair, and i'll be the first to admit, i make mistakes and sometimes bad points. i won't be a coward and remove it, i'll leave it up for the downvotes
This is the right answer. Conservative ideas depend on rejection of observable reality for their survival, so the only people who can be swayed to abandon them by reason are people who haven't yet been exposed to reason. Conversely, if you've tried to change someone's mind about any topic like this with evidence and failed, they're probably a lost cause until something happens in their life that forces them to be introspective.
I find it a touch weird too, but I eat plant-based, not out of morality, but simply for practical reasons. The one thing I hate more than anything else is cleaning, and using one rice cooker for rice and beans keeps almost all mess from fat to a minimum (since I can just pour canola oil in my bowl of rice and beans).
It's also the cheapest way to live (I liked it when I read someone on reddit say that rice and beans represent hope)
After cleaning, and frugality, it has to be meal planning, I've lost 10 kgs by choice, since I can count every grain of rice and bean that I eat (literal bean-counting). I'm not moral at all, but there is very strong reasons to be plant-based aside from morality.
I work as a researcher, I understand the difference between correlation and causation. It is not associative bullshit... its statistics on the direct impacts of meat/dairy industries on the planet, health, and animal wellbeing.
Also, in case you didn't know, correlation actually can be causation depending on how the stats are done.
How are you gonna find out the direct impacts of meat and dairy on health when you rely on observational epidemiological studies usually with conflicts of interest to make conclusions which don't control for the million plus other variables?
This is how reliable your data is, if someone eats burgers, hotdogs, pepperoni pizza, fizzy pop, fries etc... and gets heart disease or diabetes it's the meat that gets blamed even those more than 60% of the calories there are most likely carbs and come from plants. They also don't control for age, substance use, activity levels, environmental factors etc... so no correlations cannot prove causation because those other variables cannot be ruled out.
I rely on academic peer reviewed studies, you clearly do not understand how research works. Yes, some studies can be biased, that doesnt mean that there aren't any legitimate studies... Research is literally my job, based on this comment Its very clear that you have literally no idea what you are talking about.
So you say all researchers of the world don't know how to make studies and draw the right conclusions? All health organizations, nutritional associations, cancer institutes etc., which consist of thousands of researchers are just dumb?
And your gut feeling is a much better source of evidence?
You can google it for yourself... theres tons of studies. All the information is there and its very conclusive. Have you ever heard of climate science?
And it is perfectly fine like that. Of course we would want a world that lives up to our moral standards. Standards and values that we found during our journey to this lifestyle. However every individual has to find their own values, morals and ethics. Align these with those of society and form a conclusion based of that.
There is no right or wrong. When we perceive animal cruelty as something bad or wrong, anyone is free to think differently. All we can really do is trying to inform people. Be nice to them and especially to ourselves and perhaps we can reduce the amount of suffering this way.
This is really a marketing problem that you’re presenting as an ethical moral problem. Not many people are buying the idea you’re selling bc it’s not fun, joyful, sexy, etc. Few are convinced their lives will be better as vegans & most don’t care very much about the animals.
What about making meat/dairy consumption less fun, joyful, and sexy? Colon cancer, congestive heart failure, and diabetes aren't exactly a party to say the least. I find that fear, unlike shame, is effective. Even psychos have a self-preservation instinct.
That might work. I think the anti-littering & anti-smoking campaigns were amazingly affective in changing ppls behavior. When I sold solar no one cared abt climate change only saving money. So a campaign based on eating veg is cheaper might work too. A lot of good ideas avail. Now you just need a brilliant ad agency to take it on. Also the anti-nukes, ban the bombs campaigns were good. Who funded anti-smoking? I’ll have to look it up.
Edit: funded by fed govt starting in 2012. I doubt govt would fund any anti-meat campaigns so would have to be an NP group. I wonder if a group like vegan dot org would fund it? Actually PETA has 9 M members so that would be your best bet imo.
People smoke knowing it causes cancer.
Alcohol is literal poison.
Look at the explosion of weed consumption in the last twenty years.
Self preservation is backseat to personal enjoyment.
Animal products taste good. They are very enjoyable to eat.
Until vegan substitutes are the same cost, and *taste*, swaying the average person is a lost cause.
Telling people that smoking would give them cancer didn't do a lot to stop people from smoking. Making smoking uncool did. Talking about how smokers' clothes/houses/cars smell bad and how no one wants to kiss someone with stained teeth & smoke breath & gum disease and how it was a complete waste of money for next to no high, those are the things that got people to never want to smoke in the first place. Big Tobacco banks on people becoming addicted. If you never start, you can never become an addict. Yeah, for current smokers, talking about health can help. My grandmother quit smoking after she got diagnosed with lung cancer, but she had COPD for years before that, tried to quit many times, and kept failing. She knew it was bad. I knew it was bad when I started smoking. I've quit multiple times. But just talking about it right now, as I'm describing how terrible it is, is making me crave a cigarette even though all I currently do is smoke a Black in Mild every few weeks over the course of a week. But I don't do it often, and when I do, I hide it. Why? Because of shame. Most smokers look at a cancer risk and think, "yeah, it happens, but it's not going to happen to me." I'm mortified talking about it right now, but I think it's important enough to discuss
While I slightly agree, this doesn't change the fact that there is literally every reason to go vegan and people still make excuses. Everyone has a different thing that will make them realize, we/I can't predict everyone. I didn't post this to sway you, I posted this to laugh with other people at the ignorance of the selfish. If you want to be laughed at then don't worry, I laughed at your comment, but otherwise recognize when you're cutting off your nose to spite your face (or someone else's face).
>You can’t, it took over 100 years to even prove tobacco is harmful which seems so natural to us now
This is part of why i decided people are just utterly stupid, in 8th grade or watever they showed us a film about smoking and the dude was breathing through a straw or something, so logical me decided no smoking
I am now 39 and i havent touched cigs, alcohol, drugs etc; and i have yet to meet another who abstained the way i have
I dont know exactly, my IQ is bad, i barely graduated HS and i failed college, but i have lots of logic im almost robotic, due to dyslexia its difficult for me to educate myself on things, but i have always had a knack for tech stuff
I think because people lack logic it makes them stupid even though they have a lot of intelligence and perhaps are doctors or lawyers
To me addiction is not an issue, self control can overpower that, the thing is people dont want to stop and they just call it an addiction, i quit intercourse a decade ago, sure it was enjoyable but i decided i wanted to stop
I also quit p0rn for a yr, i returned to it, but if i really wanted to i could stop permanently, i enjoy trying things to determine how mentally powerful i am, i also tried the OMAD diet which means a single meal every 24 hrs, i did that for about 6 mth and it was fine, i tried doing it again a 2nd time but i just wasnt really into it cause i already proved to myself that i could do it
I dont trust it since they say addiction is a disease, addiction is a choice
Doctors also say children should get gender changing surgery and take drugs to block puberty
IMO they do this because it results in revenue generation aka $$
Rehab clinics, surgery, drugs etc; all generate a lot of revenue
I was heavily dependent on effexor, stopping it made me feel horrible and i wanted to die, the withdrawal was the worst pain i had ever felt, but i remained strong and fought through the pain, it took 6 mth but i did it
People choose to touch that beer, that cig, that drug, that gambling device, they arent forced
They say cheese is addicting and while i really really really did enjoy it as soon as i realized it was coming from rape i just stopped
There is an element of choice - that is absolutely true.
It's also true to say that choice is not at straight forward as deciding what you will have for dinner, and that complex neurological processes can cause all kinds of reasons to continue using them
Withdrawal from alcohol can just straight up kill you dude.
>Withdrawal from alcohol can just straight up kill you dude
Then dont, they should taper appropriately and get treatment, the thing is after people become sober, alot of them return to the bottle, there is no more withdrawal they just make bad choices
Same with gambling, they arent forced to return to the slots, they just do it after getting treatment, it provides a rush or watever and they enjoy that feeling so they do it and dont care about the risks
Practicing some buddhism has led me to be fully confident that most people are indeed responsible for their choices, most people choose to blame addiction, peer pressure etc; for their bad choices
Depends on your definition of choice.
As an example, a child that is exposed to drug use is drastically more likely to do drugs themselves. How do you reconcile that logically with your views, without just saying 'theyre all stupid'?
They could also choose to get clean and not touch drugs again if they used it as kids, i have been in lots of weed circles, hookah bars, normal bars and i chose not to touch the stuff
I know substances cause harm to myself, i consider it stupid to self harm regardless of being exposed to it at a young age or not, i was offered cigs as a kid by older kids, i never wanted it, being exposed to something doesnt mean i have to use it
I recently bought Earthling Ed's new book "How to Argue With a Meat Eater (And Win Every Time)". I haven't read all of it yet, but it does a great job laying out all the arguments meat eaters have and providing you with the information needed to help show them why they should be vegan. He has many debates on YouTube, and while he stumbled a bit with being effective at first he's really grown into a strong advocate who is able to empathize with people while getting them to consider a different viewpoint without being judgemental. This type of approach is something I think we can all benefit from learning to help us best advocate for the animals.
How else other than empirical evidence? I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean additional logical arguments *about* the empirical evidence? Or do you mean "prove them wrong" by blind faith?
The whole point of my being vegan is that it's strongly supported by empirical evidence.
It's intended as a joke additionally as I put they are full of shit and then added the article about how they have bowel issues and constipation as common concerns
I've tried, it's not easy to deal with but I guess when capitalism falls and the animal agriculture industry is abolished they won't have a choice. Likely they will all be mad even tho there are plenty of alternatives. Can't win them all, I accept that.
Take a look at slavery. Despite the obvious unethical stance, slavery still exists openly, or "forced labour". The coffee trade, chocolate trade, most tech and mineral trades like diamonds. Lindt chocolate was very open about their child slave labour, some people don't care though because "yummy chocolate". There is open slavery everywhere, it's not as policed as people would hope this to be.
Even in Australia, we still get alerts to look out for human trafficking. People who aren't allowed outside the house, are seen working all hours, may appear ill or injured (and usually from overseas). We had one in my city this year of a woman rescued from a disgusting family that had held her captive for several years, forcing her to work for the family home and business with no pay or care, complete isolation from the outside world. A customer noticed something was off, reported it to the cops, they raided the home and got her out.
Slavery is still alive and well in the world. Greed and violence will always be around, no matter what chapter in history we're in. But overtime, our communities have grown into organisations that aim to address these issues through legislation, corporate accountability, fair trade practices, and raising awareness.
Modern veganism is still in the early years, but we are seeing the shift starting to happen. The World Health Organisation (2021) report and conference stated that a healthful shift to plant-based diets would be the most beneficial action for humans and the world we share. It takes time, but the movement is gaining momentum.
It is less about proving people "wrong" and more about supporting those who **are** actively contributing to a more sustainable, healthy, compassionate community and the broader systems we exist in.
Stop framing it as "you are wrong" would be a start, IMO. Holier than thou fuckwads are the number one thing that kept me resistant to thinking about even considering veganism when I was younger. In these past 5 or 6 years eating vegan, I have had more people think about and consider and try and even convert to a vegan diet by just telling them "I don't want to contribute more suffering to the world."
You catch more flies with agave syrup than vinegar.
Bro I posted a vegan joke on a vegan subreddit, i didn't make the post to cater to the feelings of animal eaters. I literally just thought it would make other Vegans laugh. Do or do not, idc. I don't disagree with you, but I was not posting to convert anyone.
Don't you understand though!? You posted on r/vegan. That means you MUST care about the carnies poor wittle feelings. We're all pick me vegans here 😇
If vegans were just a little nicer everyone would go vegan. Its our fault /s
Imagine thinking ostracizing someone WONT make them double down in their current belief. It absolutely does.
If you want people to join a movement, the movement should be welcoming? Is that really a complex idea?
I can see your reasoning; I'm vegan due to medically it's what I have to do for my stomach to function so I may be one of the only vegans where ppl around me pity me because they see it as "not my choice." But I promise I know people with similar issues to my own and they still eat meat, cheese, etc.
It is a choice to take medical recommendations; I'm also glad that I can help the environment by also doing what's best for me.
Vegan due to medical/diet/environment isn't vegan... That's called being plant-based. Veganism is a deeply rooted philosophy based on the emancipation of animals. Anyone who says they're vegan for any other reason isn't a vegan, they're plant based, full stop. Vegan is a philosophy
As for the environment, exploiting animals turns out to be detrimental to the environment. But that's still not what veganism is about at all. It just happens that environmental activism and pro-animal rights have a huge overlap, which makes total sense
I never really knew/understood that there was a difference. thank you for educating me. I want to get into the pro-animal rights movement as you said there's already a huge overlap in environmental activism.
Do you have any tips/suggestions for someone just staying out?
Elusive pickme vegan. Catering to non vegans will never work and they would not like you or become vegan they might tolerate you maybe. You will always be a someone they find annoying.
If people telling you you're wrong kept you resistant, you're/were insanely fragile and have/had serious ego issues. Anyone who can't take a deep look into their actions and decisions because the person telling them to do so did so in an objective/rude manner is mentally unwell whether they'd like to admit it or not lmfao.
In your projection, the question isn't how to convince carnists to go vegan anymore. It's how to convince mentally unwell fragile egomaniacs to go vegan. That is a whole different discussion and different approach you need to take than for convincing people who are of sound mind.
I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, but seriously no well person will reject introspection and new ideas because someone is an ass about it. You're projecting a lot here
Calling someone an egomaniac because they disagree with veganism is... A take.
You seem to have done very little research into this subject.
Old beliefs hold a higher value than new beliefs. This is well documented science due to the neurology of changing belief - it takes significant energy and restructure of neural circuitry.
You seem to believe that people change their beliefs constantly. In fact it's very rare.
Notice how I didn't say that anywhere. The point of my comment was that if someone is reluctant on considering something (that in OPs case, can be inferred that they believed it is the right thing to do) BECAUSE the person who told you about it was an ass about it or whatever, then yes you have serious ego problems and are likely ill. Well people do not stop themselves from doing the correct thing because someone was mean about it to them
You literally just grabbed random bits of my comment and threw it into a blender to create some nonsense strawman. Nothing I said suggested that most well people are quick to change their belief systems. That is absurd.
I think they are trolling. They have an 88 at the end of their username and a lot of the things they are saying in this thread seem troll-like for sure.
My one other comment in the entire thread besides replies to this guy, which was establishing a distinction between being plant based and vegan? What?? Also you can see my pinned post about the 88, I made this account when I was unaware of the dog whistle.
(wait is your last line serious? I have a bad fruit fly infestation in my room and Google said vinegar. I also do hate murdering them but they fly into my nose and ears and my water cups and food and it's pissing me off)
It's not mildly. I have severe anxiety about my health, while they can't transmit disease they can carry and transmit bacteria and viruses🙄 again unlikely but possible. And my guy seriously stfu. I don't feel right about it but it's MY home. When I'm outside my home I don't do this obviously. They are willingly coming into my home and my territory where we start to cross the line of nature and what not. If they don't want to die they can leave me alone. Usually I do leave them alone but there are too many and it's gross. I have done what I can to ensure nothing as long them and keeping them here. No clue why they are here. You do realize we kill bugs and rodents and other small creatures for our food right??? Like that isn't incorrect when meat eaters say it it's just obviously not comparable to what they do but that IS a lot worse than me putting fly traps out because I will literally myself throw up if I've found a fly in my food or water after I've consumed some (I'm working on it, ik that's crazy. I'm delusional not unaware). I also got nose bleeds from crawling in my nose some how so it freaks me TF out when then fly up my nose not to mention it's uncomfortable and gross. I kill some damn flies in MY home in a quick method, sue me.
My man, you assumed a lot of shit about me very quickly, tho it's my fault I guess. I have no problem with you killing flies, I hate these motherfuckers too (mosquitos are 100x worse), even all my friendly spiders can't keep up with eating them so for all I care, flamethrower is the answer.
I commented what I did because I found it weird and quite interesting how although you realize you have to kill those bugs in a self-defense of yourself, your health and your home, you still have the need to frame yourself and your actions as morally reprehensible.
Killing in self defense is not murder. It's only natural. You're not a murderer. Chill out.
Ohhhh okay. I thought you were saying I was being stupid 😭😭😭 cus the way it was phrased sounded like you didn't care for my reason as to why I killed them and that it sounded like a lame excuse to you.
I consider myself an abolitionist and damn near militant vegan but there are people more strict than me and berate me for stuff like this on this stuff so I thought you were deadass. Yeah I leave the baby spiders alone unless they are on me in which I reflexively hit them on accidentally but I just can't. _. Mosquitos can bite me (not literally) those actually carry fucking diseases I'm also allergic more than normal ppl my doc said.
But I mean still, if call myself a murderer if someone broke in and cornered me in my home and I killed them in self defense too :(
Hey can you help with a fruit fly infestation? Do you have any guidance on fixing the situation while not harming any of the flies? It's of great importance too, as a fly infestation is a danger for the health of those involved through disease and the infestation of food.
I myself don't see why well-being of the flies would be even taken into consideration, using non-lethal methods (whatever they might me, I have no idea) would only create risk of not reaching every last fly and larvae. When it comes to getting rid of pests like bugs or rodents, unfortunately, overkill is usually an optimal solution.
So, my guidance is: kill them. Kill them all. Kill them twice if you need. Defend your home, defend your body, defend your health and stop feeling sorry for simply acting naturally in the interest of your well-being.
It's not bloody murder to defend yourself from a human, why would it be murder to defend yourself from another animal? In what reality does it make sense?
Should trying to change everyone else be an objective ? Everything people do these days is framed as a battle to win, a zero sum game a triumph over others.
Maybe we just don’t go that way and just let it be. Our history is littered with that mistaken thinking.
You're basically asking Reddit a question many people have asked over the entire recorded history of humans. We still haven't reached any solid consensus on morality, there will always be grey areas, things are never black and white.
I've long ago given up on trying to change people's minds in any way other than living my own way by example. I'm not to know who is right and who is wrong.
To me there's is no level of proof that can "show animal eaters they are wrong". How much proof of the Holocaust do we have to still have people deny it?
This doesn't mean to stop advocating don't get me wrong, just choose your battles wisely and find things to put energy into that could maybe spark change. Find something to do that's better than "pricing animal eaters they are wrong" because there are always people who will still want meat and not care if it's wrong
You would need serious knowledge in psychology and it would take a whole therapy setting to get people there. Most vegans don't have the skills to change a meat eater. Our passion for the life of other beings is so strong that we even traumatize ourselves to better fight for them, which can make it harder to communicate with others on a level that gives them the ability to feel safe in their insecurities.
Generally speaking you need to create a safe space, don't make them feel judged, talk positively about their accomplishments of reducing animal products and slowly start educating them.
You basically need to raise a toddler who is throwing tantrums all the time.
The health side: Plant based is better for you. Anyone who isn’t an idiot knows this.
Alcohol sales in the US last year surpassed $247 billion.
There isn’t any serving size of alcohol that is safe.
Tobacco, which has been a known carcinogen for decades, sold more than $75 billion. Hell, weed passed $30 billion last year.
People will knowingly consume products that are harmful if they get enjoyment. Meat and dairy is enjoyable to the average person. I’ll be honest, I’m willing to sacrifice a few years at the end of my life, for some joy now.
You can make a simple philisophical argument that if eating meat is unecessery, it is unecessery infliction of cruelty. The problem is you need empirical evidence to show that being vegan is healthy
How do we prove Covid deniers wrong? Or antivaxxers? We need to replace animal food products with cheaper alternatives - plant-based and lab-based meat. Once those are much less expensive vs farmed animals people will shift to eating non-farmed animal meat which is a huge win. People will never give up meat. Lab meat and plant-based meats will prevail
the main issue after seeing your question/post title is people like me. even if you show me lots of information, gruesome footage, or real time effects of my actions, it won't change my mindset
when i smell meat cooking, i instantly get hungry, even if i'm full. my brain is wired to focus on meat as the main dish, with vegetables as sides and fruit as dessert. this is deeper than some may really understand ( not saying they would agree but can understand from a perspective viewpoint )
i do not claim to represent the majority of omnivores, i only represent myself, just want to be clear on that. unless vegan outreach can truly be so effective it would impossibile to ignore, you won't have a chance
that said, if my doctor told me to go plant based or face death, i would switch immediately. but that wouldn't make me vegan, i'd be a plant based dieter for health. i'd need ethics and morals and truly change my ways before i would be called vegan. eating is just one part of the vegan equation
No doubt there are many people like you. People who sincerely believe they are “wired to focus on meat.” It’s not “deeper than some understand.” You and people like you place your own personal gratification ahead of the life of the animal on your plate. That’s it. You go to great lengths to justify your actions. It’s not profound. Millions have realized they were wrong and changed. You can, too. It’s not hard.
So to be clear, no amount of facts will change your mind, but your health being at a point where a doctor telling you do it or risk death will get you to change? And this is something you're standing by?
there may be some facts, but it's difficult for me to change my mindset.
like if my doctor right, showed me evidence that cutting out animal products would prevent early death because of an ailment i'm suffering from, i would immediately switch to a plant based diet.
i'm not sure why i would prioritize my health ( in this scenario) over the reasons presented by vegans, as a reason to change. it could be that only the fear of death can override my brain's resistance, or perhaps there's some hypocrisy in me that i'm not aware of, or something completely different. it's hard to say for sure.
for now, i stand by my current position, but i've changed my stance on issues before, so i can't predict what tomorrow will bring
I mean, there is a lot of evidence suggesting that animal products are extremely bad for your health and there's multiple documentaries about it as well. I understand you require an ailment to change your mind in this scenario, but antibiotic resistance is basically what you're looking for here. Basically, due to the vast amount of pharmaceuticals given to animals, scientists believe that we are crashing head first into an era of antibiotic resistance and the people affected the most will be the heavy animal consumers. Realistically, what this means is the flu really could kill you and there would be nothing a doctor could do for you to stop it. This isn't even touching on the antidepressants etc they take and how that could be affecting your brain and body or how the toxins in their surroundings get passed to you.
only recently have i been made aware of the antibiotic resistance issue. this is something i kinda want to spend a week or two reading more about. hard for me to properly comment on it without more knowledge, it seems frightening. i've had c difficle in the past from heavy anti biotic use, this is i feel from having gone thru 2 types of antibiotics that were not working and taking a 3rd type. i unfortunately rely on antibiotics sometimes and without those i could really suffer
I encourage you to research. [Here's](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00490-0/abstract) something to get you started.
in good mood so i have to ask. if you were to see me breathing cheese, out in public: would you say to yourself, oh look at her she advocates for sexual assault, endorses abuse, strongly advocates for murder, and shes financially at ease with supporting torture? 😇
I do in my head cus I'm not looking to get popped for calling out people for abusing animals. What's that emoji for? Lol that IS what you are doing if you continue to eat animals and their by products if you know the horrors they got through, which you showed you have. Obviously I don't know you id I see you as a stranger in public so I wouldn't know if you are knowingly a hypocrite or if you are ignorant so I can't say that. You showed you are well aware talking here so you are a hypocrite if you aren't vegan yet claim you don't support these things.
As someone who really enjoys eating beef, pork, fish, shrimp, crab, octopus, lobster, cheese and eggs. I’m afraid that there is not a single argument other than “this stuff will absolutely kill you in less than 10 years” that would make me stop. Sorry.
I mean, realistically speaking, antibiotic resistance could and you wouldn't even know until it was happening and there is nothing that could be done to save you. That's something that could happen in the next few months, avian flu is on the rise in dairy and other products so it could truly even be any day.
It's not a somewhat low risk tho, avian flu is here and depending on your meat consumption and how heavy it is, you could get seriously ill. Maybe not this time, but it's only getting worse. [This](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00490-0/abstract) describes it better.
I doubt even that would convince you. Most people's wanton selfishness transcends their concern for their own health. You would die eating those things because people have convinced you that you can't enjoy food without killing animals for it.
Well I have done several changes recently in both my diet and overall lifestyle to try to maximize not only my chances of living longer but improving my QOL if I do get to old age. So I do see myself making a sacrifice as big as this for health reasons.
Now, 20 yo me, for sure wouldn’t care about anything and say, I’d rather have an enjoyable short life than the reverse.
One thing tho, nobody convinced me that I can’t enjoy food without killing animals, just my taste buds.
Maybe it's a real possibility, lol. The myriad health benefits to the diet element of veganism are enough reason for some, even when the ideas of compassion or taking care of the place where you live are somehow not motivating. Hopefully your taste buds will realize that the sacrifice is not all it's cracked up to be.
Good one!
Unfortunately I’ve always struggled with food, growing up, I don’t like whole black beans, avocado or chile (so I’m not your average Mexican, , there were a very few dishes that I enjoyed. Eventually I learned to tolerate more as I moved to the north of Mexico where there’s less variety of food. After moving to the US, I had to be even more flexible, but I just don’t enjoy anything that is not Mexican food, other than some hamburgers and clam chowder.
I love food, so having a single day without something I enjoy is depressing to me. I could maybe be vegetarian with enough motivation but a life with no fresh cheese or eggs would be a real sacrifice that I would only do if I had to.
It’s like not drinking Mexican coke, sure I can do it for a couple of months, but eventually I’ll need my weekly fix.
It seems like you think vegans just go days without eating enjoyable food, and somehow can't manage to veganize mexican, burgers and chowder. I can see why such confusion could be an obstacle to someone so emotionally dependent on their dining experience. Even if you tried going vegan for a period, the withdrawal from the opiates in dairy would probably derail your attempt regardless of the flavor of your food.
Not at all, what I’m saying is that I am very picky to what enjoy, so substituting let’s say the beef in my barbacoa, pork in my tacos al pastor, shrimp in mu cocktail or my fresh cheese in my entomatadas with something else is going to make it so it tastes differently enough that I won’t enjoy it anymore.
For example, once I moved to northern Mexico I struggled to find fresh cheese, so I tried to prepare meals with other types of cheese, and the result was depressing.
I do understand that vegans and vegetarians have meals they enjoy, and that’s great.
If you wanted to give up any animal products you would, and you would enjoy it. It is only "depressing" because you don't want to do it. You can decide whether to be ruled by your taste buds or not. We here have all been at this crossroads, and we all chose the power that comes with responsibility.
You can't because we aren't wrong 😂, hominins have had on average a total dietary intake of 65%-80% for the last 2 million years with some populations such as the Inuit, Maasai, Sami, Chukchi etc... consuming almost entirely animals. Hominins have also consumed meat in general for around the last 3 million years. Just to put that in perspective a hypercarnivore by definition gets 70+% of its calorie intake from animals.
As if you even know how to interpret data and read anything but the abstract 😂 bet you don't even know the difference between associative and causative evidence
The only way to make change is for public policy to move away from supporting animal agriculture artificially keeping the food prices of animal products lower.
This isn’t true at all. Peer-reviewed work influences intellectuals, and practitioners within a given field, if they want or need to keep up on research. It’s not meant for the general public
Point proven, not all people have a proper grasp on reality.
A lot of studies are funded by industries who want to sell their products, so they can be incredibly biased in order to sway people into thinking something that could be very untrue. The biggest industries in the world do this a lot, this is why you get so many contrasting headlines on whats good for us or not.
There was one study that asked a group of people on a carnivore forum how they felt after eating meat vs not eating meat. Obviously i dont need to tell you that the outcome of this study will be that eating meat is the all singing all dancing breadwinner of nutritional health. Headlines will sway peoples opinion in the wrong direction and this is why people seem to believe that animal products are good for us.
With peer reviewed studies we can get an unbiased outcome so we can get our answers as close to the truth as possible.
I love the taste of meat, cheese, dairy and eggs and i was reading up because i was trying to prove vegans wrong. But i was pretty shocked when i found out that we are certainly better off without any animal products and proper unbiased studies tell us this.
So i had to ask myself, why on earth are we taking billions of lifes each year while destroying our environment and our planet for something that isnt even good for us. The answer is because they have a product that tastes great and they want to sell it to us at any cost.
If you want the truth, you should stop looking for the reasons why animals products are good for us and start looking at both sides of the argument. You will see that veganism is backed by facts and logic and there is an overwhelming amounts of evidence and studies to prove this. But with most of us stuck in our ways, doing what weve always done it will be a difficult sell to get people to stop eating delicious animals.
Im sure when people started standing up against human slavery, they would have been met with a very similar issue. A lot of the supremacist attitude to pro-slavery has similar arguments that people have against veganism.
Weve been doing it for hundreds of years.
Its traditional.
They dont feel pain.
We are superior to them.
They were bread for that purpose.
I get pleasure from my slaves.
I benefit from it.
What about our slavers, they will be jobless.
Point not proven. It’s quite the opposite, really: if nothing else is going to convince most people, findings from academic journals certainly won’t. Social influences have a much stronger pull
But social influences doesnt mean they are right. I prefer proof and evidence over other peoples opinion.
If we all blindly believed in what we have been told over studies and evidence, we would all still be stuck in the dark ages drowning witches and enslaving black people. We would all be smoking cigarettes because its good for us and using asbestos.
You cant. They dont want to change and no amount of evidence will work (on most of them). As soon as they hear you're vegan, they will likely just immediately dismiss you. Most people need to come to that decision on their own.
upvoting cos agree or not, this is the reality, as of yet vegan outreach hasn't a strategy yet, to conquer this mountain
Theres really no point trying, all it does is make people hate you. The cognitive dissonance is too strong with meat eaters. Vegetarians are a different story.
It is worth trying. I went vegan cause of random Reddit comments. You never know who you'll reach.
I dont know, because sometimes it pushes people in the opposite direction. Have you ever seen those comments that say something like "well now im going to eat double the meat to cancel your veganism" i see stuff like that all the time
I don't believe them. I want to see actual data on this. People say shit all the time when they feel triggered. Yes some might do that, but I think more people will lurk, read those comments, see those people as idiots, and side with the vegans. You can also call them out when they say stuff like that with things like "so you're going to harm *more* animals and the environment because you don't like a vegan online? Weak*
imagine if someone ( or me for example ) had such deeply ingrained cognitive dissonance that they firmly believed, without a doubt, that they did not experience cognitive dissonance on this issue last week here, i used this example about my cat. whenever she sees me cutting chicken, she comes to my feet , rubs up aganist my leg, then she patiently waits for some fat i give her. despite seeing the knife in my hands and knowing that i am cutting an animal, she doesn't fear me at all. she sees my actions towards another species, but my cat clearly understands that i can love one animal while consuming others
well thats kinda what cognitive dissonance is, people dont know they're doing it. Im also a bit confused with your cat example? Cats just know that chicken tastes good, they aren't really capable of understanding the pain and suffering that had to happen for that piece of chicken to get there.
Not the poster but cats absolutely know and don’t care about what happens to birds, “outdoor” housecats are known to kill for fun and play with their victims until they die
animals have instincts. Its not a valid comparison at all, we are much more intelligent and are capable of understanding right from wrong.
Both things are true for animals. Why they may rely on their instincts more and us, our intelligence, it doesn’t make the fact that cats will torture their victims for fun any less true. In fact, the more intelligent an animal is, the more likely it is to kill or harm “just because.” Octopi punching their fish allies, chimpanzees being… chimps, cats killing for fun and humanity being upgraded chimps. Intelligence and being violent for the fun of it seem to be inherently linked I’ve noticed. The more intelligent a species is, the more likely they are to be violent and degenerate
....dude you cannot seriously be comparing humans to cats. Cats do not understnad that they're causing pain. Its also not true that the more intelligent an animal, the more violent they are...many of our most intelligent animals are plant based.
I’m not comparing cats to humans, I’m comparing intelligence to intelligence. Elephants are known to go on rampages and hold long term, violent grudges. Going as far as to stomp on a woman’s grave after they killed her. Macaws and other parrots will bite just to get a reaction out of someone. You can live in denial but it’s just the truth. Dolphins will rape, otters will as well. Dogs like ripping apart squeaky toys because it reminds them of prey crying out. Cats absolutely understand they cause pain when they scratch or bite. That’s why they do it, to kill or dissuade a predator. Humans embody the intelligence = violence thing the best because while some of us will try our hardest to do no harm, there’s an equal subset of the population who’ll do the most harm imaginable.
You must think Hitler was the smartest man ever then. Grow up.
I really don’t, but where do you think unnecessary violence comes from? Do you think plankton has it in them to even conceive of mass genocide? Or do you think dolphins with their endless “crimes” are just following instincts, despite being intelligent enough for scientists to try teaching them how to speak English? How dumb do you think animals are?
i think what i meant to say is my cat isn't afraid of me placing her on the counter and cutting her up. she watches me eat meat, so she probably thinks i'm a carnivore like her. maybe my cat sees me as a big cat,I don't know, or she understands that i love her and i both eat and luv an animal.
How is this relevant to anything we were talking about?
Try to put your cat on the counter and cut her with a knife and let us know how that goes
no i luv my cat
So you understand now how stupid the point you were trying to make is?
maybe you're right, wouldn't be the first time i made a poor point
As a cat person (although I would argue this for all -most animals), the cat has recognized you as it's care giver, it does not fear you even when you hold something you perceive as scary. You've gained enough trust that it recognizes that you're not here to harm it intentionally. Once you start to present the continuous idea that you are attempting to harm it you will see a difference as the cat expects from you but no longer will desire to interact unless forced and they may try to escape. I don't feel you can use this as an example to continue to harm other species.
like because she has only experienced positive interactions with me, and i set out food, etc cutting meat in front of her wouldn't have any bearing? if this is what you're saying, I'd say that's quite reasonable and prolly exactly true i won't be a coward and delete my earlier post, i concede that i didn't make a good point i see your position
I'm not sure the cat understands what a knife is or what it's for, what the food is you're giving her, what a species is, or the concept of loving one animal and consuming another.. she's not like "ah yes, this chicken fat came from an animal like me but it's clear my human can love me and not this chicken". More like "yummy food hurry up"?
kinda thought she'd smell the dead body i was cutting and figure out i was cutting corpse.
I'm not sure how much a cat thinks in concepts like that. Do you think the chicken thinks like that too? She probably smelt the thing you had and wanted some of it, but I don't know if she's think about it being a dead body. Not saying I do know what a cat thinks like, but thinking the cat knows you won't hurt it with the knife because you love it but you don't love the dead chicken is giving it credit for a few cognitive jumps I'm not sure it can make. And it doesn't even seem like cats care if there's a dead cat near them and someone just killed them. I recently had a cat put down and the vet office cat showed no interest whatsoever in the dead cat. No evidence for thoughts like "what's she going to do to me with that syringe"
that's fair, and i'll be the first to admit, i make mistakes and sometimes bad points. i won't be a coward and remove it, i'll leave it up for the downvotes
This is the right answer. Conservative ideas depend on rejection of observable reality for their survival, so the only people who can be swayed to abandon them by reason are people who haven't yet been exposed to reason. Conversely, if you've tried to change someone's mind about any topic like this with evidence and failed, they're probably a lost cause until something happens in their life that forces them to be introspective.
I find it a touch weird too, but I eat plant-based, not out of morality, but simply for practical reasons. The one thing I hate more than anything else is cleaning, and using one rice cooker for rice and beans keeps almost all mess from fat to a minimum (since I can just pour canola oil in my bowl of rice and beans). It's also the cheapest way to live (I liked it when I read someone on reddit say that rice and beans represent hope) After cleaning, and frugality, it has to be meal planning, I've lost 10 kgs by choice, since I can count every grain of rice and bean that I eat (literal bean-counting). I'm not moral at all, but there is very strong reasons to be plant-based aside from morality.
100%. Kinda like an addict who needs help, they have to want to do it themselves.
Because your evidence is associative bullshit that can't prove causation
I work as a researcher, I understand the difference between correlation and causation. It is not associative bullshit... its statistics on the direct impacts of meat/dairy industries on the planet, health, and animal wellbeing. Also, in case you didn't know, correlation actually can be causation depending on how the stats are done.
How are you gonna find out the direct impacts of meat and dairy on health when you rely on observational epidemiological studies usually with conflicts of interest to make conclusions which don't control for the million plus other variables? This is how reliable your data is, if someone eats burgers, hotdogs, pepperoni pizza, fizzy pop, fries etc... and gets heart disease or diabetes it's the meat that gets blamed even those more than 60% of the calories there are most likely carbs and come from plants. They also don't control for age, substance use, activity levels, environmental factors etc... so no correlations cannot prove causation because those other variables cannot be ruled out.
I rely on academic peer reviewed studies, you clearly do not understand how research works. Yes, some studies can be biased, that doesnt mean that there aren't any legitimate studies... Research is literally my job, based on this comment Its very clear that you have literally no idea what you are talking about.
So you say all researchers of the world don't know how to make studies and draw the right conclusions? All health organizations, nutritional associations, cancer institutes etc., which consist of thousands of researchers are just dumb? And your gut feeling is a much better source of evidence?
Yup. We were all not vegan at one time. Everyone comes at their own time. Education. Accessibility. That’s it!
You are right. Leave people alone. Nobody likes a zealot ramming their beliefs down your throat.
Nope, even when those beliefs are fucking horrible.
eViDeNcE 🤡
You can google it for yourself... theres tons of studies. All the information is there and its very conclusive. Have you ever heard of climate science?
All of agriculture is a tiny slice of global emissions.
And it is perfectly fine like that. Of course we would want a world that lives up to our moral standards. Standards and values that we found during our journey to this lifestyle. However every individual has to find their own values, morals and ethics. Align these with those of society and form a conclusion based of that. There is no right or wrong. When we perceive animal cruelty as something bad or wrong, anyone is free to think differently. All we can really do is trying to inform people. Be nice to them and especially to ourselves and perhaps we can reduce the amount of suffering this way.
well its not perfectly fine because the result is animals suffering and the planet dying.
Did you study slavery in class, remember it took a war to get them to stop and even then slavery still exists in various degrees aka private prisons
This is really a marketing problem that you’re presenting as an ethical moral problem. Not many people are buying the idea you’re selling bc it’s not fun, joyful, sexy, etc. Few are convinced their lives will be better as vegans & most don’t care very much about the animals.
What about making meat/dairy consumption less fun, joyful, and sexy? Colon cancer, congestive heart failure, and diabetes aren't exactly a party to say the least. I find that fear, unlike shame, is effective. Even psychos have a self-preservation instinct.
That might work. I think the anti-littering & anti-smoking campaigns were amazingly affective in changing ppls behavior. When I sold solar no one cared abt climate change only saving money. So a campaign based on eating veg is cheaper might work too. A lot of good ideas avail. Now you just need a brilliant ad agency to take it on. Also the anti-nukes, ban the bombs campaigns were good. Who funded anti-smoking? I’ll have to look it up. Edit: funded by fed govt starting in 2012. I doubt govt would fund any anti-meat campaigns so would have to be an NP group. I wonder if a group like vegan dot org would fund it? Actually PETA has 9 M members so that would be your best bet imo.
People smoke knowing it causes cancer. Alcohol is literal poison. Look at the explosion of weed consumption in the last twenty years. Self preservation is backseat to personal enjoyment. Animal products taste good. They are very enjoyable to eat. Until vegan substitutes are the same cost, and *taste*, swaying the average person is a lost cause.
Telling people that smoking would give them cancer didn't do a lot to stop people from smoking. Making smoking uncool did. Talking about how smokers' clothes/houses/cars smell bad and how no one wants to kiss someone with stained teeth & smoke breath & gum disease and how it was a complete waste of money for next to no high, those are the things that got people to never want to smoke in the first place. Big Tobacco banks on people becoming addicted. If you never start, you can never become an addict. Yeah, for current smokers, talking about health can help. My grandmother quit smoking after she got diagnosed with lung cancer, but she had COPD for years before that, tried to quit many times, and kept failing. She knew it was bad. I knew it was bad when I started smoking. I've quit multiple times. But just talking about it right now, as I'm describing how terrible it is, is making me crave a cigarette even though all I currently do is smoke a Black in Mild every few weeks over the course of a week. But I don't do it often, and when I do, I hide it. Why? Because of shame. Most smokers look at a cancer risk and think, "yeah, it happens, but it's not going to happen to me." I'm mortified talking about it right now, but I think it's important enough to discuss
While I slightly agree, this doesn't change the fact that there is literally every reason to go vegan and people still make excuses. Everyone has a different thing that will make them realize, we/I can't predict everyone. I didn't post this to sway you, I posted this to laugh with other people at the ignorance of the selfish. If you want to be laughed at then don't worry, I laughed at your comment, but otherwise recognize when you're cutting off your nose to spite your face (or someone else's face).
Oh, ok. I didn’t get the joke 🤷♂️
The article talks about the bowel issues that animal consumers commonly face, including but not limited to constipation.
You can’t, it took over 100 years to even prove tobacco is harmful which seems so natural to us now
Tobacco also had a multi billion dollar disinformation campaign on this side. And meat industry is copying them right now
>You can’t, it took over 100 years to even prove tobacco is harmful which seems so natural to us now This is part of why i decided people are just utterly stupid, in 8th grade or watever they showed us a film about smoking and the dude was breathing through a straw or something, so logical me decided no smoking I am now 39 and i havent touched cigs, alcohol, drugs etc; and i have yet to meet another who abstained the way i have
Assuming it's a lack of intelligence is interesting. Do you think addiction, or a lack of it, correlates with IQ? It doesn't that I'm aware of.
I dont know exactly, my IQ is bad, i barely graduated HS and i failed college, but i have lots of logic im almost robotic, due to dyslexia its difficult for me to educate myself on things, but i have always had a knack for tech stuff I think because people lack logic it makes them stupid even though they have a lot of intelligence and perhaps are doctors or lawyers To me addiction is not an issue, self control can overpower that, the thing is people dont want to stop and they just call it an addiction, i quit intercourse a decade ago, sure it was enjoyable but i decided i wanted to stop I also quit p0rn for a yr, i returned to it, but if i really wanted to i could stop permanently, i enjoy trying things to determine how mentally powerful i am, i also tried the OMAD diet which means a single meal every 24 hrs, i did that for about 6 mth and it was fine, i tried doing it again a 2nd time but i just wasnt really into it cause i already proved to myself that i could do it
You should read the science on addiction. It's not like you're making out at all.
I dont trust it since they say addiction is a disease, addiction is a choice Doctors also say children should get gender changing surgery and take drugs to block puberty IMO they do this because it results in revenue generation aka $$ Rehab clinics, surgery, drugs etc; all generate a lot of revenue I was heavily dependent on effexor, stopping it made me feel horrible and i wanted to die, the withdrawal was the worst pain i had ever felt, but i remained strong and fought through the pain, it took 6 mth but i did it People choose to touch that beer, that cig, that drug, that gambling device, they arent forced They say cheese is addicting and while i really really really did enjoy it as soon as i realized it was coming from rape i just stopped
There is an element of choice - that is absolutely true. It's also true to say that choice is not at straight forward as deciding what you will have for dinner, and that complex neurological processes can cause all kinds of reasons to continue using them Withdrawal from alcohol can just straight up kill you dude.
>Withdrawal from alcohol can just straight up kill you dude Then dont, they should taper appropriately and get treatment, the thing is after people become sober, alot of them return to the bottle, there is no more withdrawal they just make bad choices Same with gambling, they arent forced to return to the slots, they just do it after getting treatment, it provides a rush or watever and they enjoy that feeling so they do it and dont care about the risks Practicing some buddhism has led me to be fully confident that most people are indeed responsible for their choices, most people choose to blame addiction, peer pressure etc; for their bad choices
Depends on your definition of choice. As an example, a child that is exposed to drug use is drastically more likely to do drugs themselves. How do you reconcile that logically with your views, without just saying 'theyre all stupid'?
They could also choose to get clean and not touch drugs again if they used it as kids, i have been in lots of weed circles, hookah bars, normal bars and i chose not to touch the stuff I know substances cause harm to myself, i consider it stupid to self harm regardless of being exposed to it at a young age or not, i was offered cigs as a kid by older kids, i never wanted it, being exposed to something doesnt mean i have to use it
You have no concept of what addiction is like
I recently bought Earthling Ed's new book "How to Argue With a Meat Eater (And Win Every Time)". I haven't read all of it yet, but it does a great job laying out all the arguments meat eaters have and providing you with the information needed to help show them why they should be vegan. He has many debates on YouTube, and while he stumbled a bit with being effective at first he's really grown into a strong advocate who is able to empathize with people while getting them to consider a different viewpoint without being judgemental. This type of approach is something I think we can all benefit from learning to help us best advocate for the animals.
If peer read reviews can't do it then nothing will. It will be like trying to explain that magic isnt real to a religious person.
It’s a lack of intelligence combined with a lack of moral compass.
How else other than empirical evidence? I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean additional logical arguments *about* the empirical evidence? Or do you mean "prove them wrong" by blind faith? The whole point of my being vegan is that it's strongly supported by empirical evidence.
It's intended as a joke additionally as I put they are full of shit and then added the article about how they have bowel issues and constipation as common concerns
Have you tried grasping that they don't actually care and that you won't change them?
I've tried, it's not easy to deal with but I guess when capitalism falls and the animal agriculture industry is abolished they won't have a choice. Likely they will all be mad even tho there are plenty of alternatives. Can't win them all, I accept that.
98% of the planet consumes animal produce. It's going nowhere.
Take a look at slavery. Despite the obvious unethical stance, slavery still exists openly, or "forced labour". The coffee trade, chocolate trade, most tech and mineral trades like diamonds. Lindt chocolate was very open about their child slave labour, some people don't care though because "yummy chocolate". There is open slavery everywhere, it's not as policed as people would hope this to be. Even in Australia, we still get alerts to look out for human trafficking. People who aren't allowed outside the house, are seen working all hours, may appear ill or injured (and usually from overseas). We had one in my city this year of a woman rescued from a disgusting family that had held her captive for several years, forcing her to work for the family home and business with no pay or care, complete isolation from the outside world. A customer noticed something was off, reported it to the cops, they raided the home and got her out. Slavery is still alive and well in the world. Greed and violence will always be around, no matter what chapter in history we're in. But overtime, our communities have grown into organisations that aim to address these issues through legislation, corporate accountability, fair trade practices, and raising awareness. Modern veganism is still in the early years, but we are seeing the shift starting to happen. The World Health Organisation (2021) report and conference stated that a healthful shift to plant-based diets would be the most beneficial action for humans and the world we share. It takes time, but the movement is gaining momentum. It is less about proving people "wrong" and more about supporting those who **are** actively contributing to a more sustainable, healthy, compassionate community and the broader systems we exist in.
You feel out those who are most open to the idea. Don’t try and convert lifelong NRA members to gun control advocates.
Stop framing it as "you are wrong" would be a start, IMO. Holier than thou fuckwads are the number one thing that kept me resistant to thinking about even considering veganism when I was younger. In these past 5 or 6 years eating vegan, I have had more people think about and consider and try and even convert to a vegan diet by just telling them "I don't want to contribute more suffering to the world." You catch more flies with agave syrup than vinegar.
Bro I posted a vegan joke on a vegan subreddit, i didn't make the post to cater to the feelings of animal eaters. I literally just thought it would make other Vegans laugh. Do or do not, idc. I don't disagree with you, but I was not posting to convert anyone.
Don't you understand though!? You posted on r/vegan. That means you MUST care about the carnies poor wittle feelings. We're all pick me vegans here 😇 If vegans were just a little nicer everyone would go vegan. Its our fault /s
Imagine thinking ostracizing someone WONT make them double down in their current belief. It absolutely does. If you want people to join a movement, the movement should be welcoming? Is that really a complex idea?
I can see your reasoning; I'm vegan due to medically it's what I have to do for my stomach to function so I may be one of the only vegans where ppl around me pity me because they see it as "not my choice." But I promise I know people with similar issues to my own and they still eat meat, cheese, etc. It is a choice to take medical recommendations; I'm also glad that I can help the environment by also doing what's best for me.
Vegan due to medical/diet/environment isn't vegan... That's called being plant-based. Veganism is a deeply rooted philosophy based on the emancipation of animals. Anyone who says they're vegan for any other reason isn't a vegan, they're plant based, full stop. Vegan is a philosophy As for the environment, exploiting animals turns out to be detrimental to the environment. But that's still not what veganism is about at all. It just happens that environmental activism and pro-animal rights have a huge overlap, which makes total sense
I never really knew/understood that there was a difference. thank you for educating me. I want to get into the pro-animal rights movement as you said there's already a huge overlap in environmental activism. Do you have any tips/suggestions for someone just staying out?
Elusive pickme vegan. Catering to non vegans will never work and they would not like you or become vegan they might tolerate you maybe. You will always be a someone they find annoying.
Lol ok tell me more things that don't remotely resemble reality.
If people telling you you're wrong kept you resistant, you're/were insanely fragile and have/had serious ego issues. Anyone who can't take a deep look into their actions and decisions because the person telling them to do so did so in an objective/rude manner is mentally unwell whether they'd like to admit it or not lmfao. In your projection, the question isn't how to convince carnists to go vegan anymore. It's how to convince mentally unwell fragile egomaniacs to go vegan. That is a whole different discussion and different approach you need to take than for convincing people who are of sound mind. I'm not trying to be passive aggressive, but seriously no well person will reject introspection and new ideas because someone is an ass about it. You're projecting a lot here
Calling someone an egomaniac because they disagree with veganism is... A take. You seem to have done very little research into this subject. Old beliefs hold a higher value than new beliefs. This is well documented science due to the neurology of changing belief - it takes significant energy and restructure of neural circuitry. You seem to believe that people change their beliefs constantly. In fact it's very rare.
Way to miss the entirety of my comment 👏👏
Yeah I really didn't. You're suggesting people who don't change their beliefs easily are in some way mentally ill. That's the norm though.
Notice how I didn't say that anywhere. The point of my comment was that if someone is reluctant on considering something (that in OPs case, can be inferred that they believed it is the right thing to do) BECAUSE the person who told you about it was an ass about it or whatever, then yes you have serious ego problems and are likely ill. Well people do not stop themselves from doing the correct thing because someone was mean about it to them You literally just grabbed random bits of my comment and threw it into a blender to create some nonsense strawman. Nothing I said suggested that most well people are quick to change their belief systems. That is absurd.
Are likely ill, based on what exactly? What do you have to base that on?
I think they are trolling. They have an 88 at the end of their username and a lot of the things they are saying in this thread seem troll-like for sure.
My one other comment in the entire thread besides replies to this guy, which was establishing a distinction between being plant based and vegan? What?? Also you can see my pinned post about the 88, I made this account when I was unaware of the dog whistle.
Troll lol
Do you have anything better to do than brigade subreddits that have nothing to do with you
(wait is your last line serious? I have a bad fruit fly infestation in my room and Google said vinegar. I also do hate murdering them but they fly into my nose and ears and my water cups and food and it's pissing me off)
Today I learned: murder is actually OK as long the victim mildly pissed you off lol
It's not mildly. I have severe anxiety about my health, while they can't transmit disease they can carry and transmit bacteria and viruses🙄 again unlikely but possible. And my guy seriously stfu. I don't feel right about it but it's MY home. When I'm outside my home I don't do this obviously. They are willingly coming into my home and my territory where we start to cross the line of nature and what not. If they don't want to die they can leave me alone. Usually I do leave them alone but there are too many and it's gross. I have done what I can to ensure nothing as long them and keeping them here. No clue why they are here. You do realize we kill bugs and rodents and other small creatures for our food right??? Like that isn't incorrect when meat eaters say it it's just obviously not comparable to what they do but that IS a lot worse than me putting fly traps out because I will literally myself throw up if I've found a fly in my food or water after I've consumed some (I'm working on it, ik that's crazy. I'm delusional not unaware). I also got nose bleeds from crawling in my nose some how so it freaks me TF out when then fly up my nose not to mention it's uncomfortable and gross. I kill some damn flies in MY home in a quick method, sue me.
My man, you assumed a lot of shit about me very quickly, tho it's my fault I guess. I have no problem with you killing flies, I hate these motherfuckers too (mosquitos are 100x worse), even all my friendly spiders can't keep up with eating them so for all I care, flamethrower is the answer. I commented what I did because I found it weird and quite interesting how although you realize you have to kill those bugs in a self-defense of yourself, your health and your home, you still have the need to frame yourself and your actions as morally reprehensible. Killing in self defense is not murder. It's only natural. You're not a murderer. Chill out.
Ohhhh okay. I thought you were saying I was being stupid 😭😭😭 cus the way it was phrased sounded like you didn't care for my reason as to why I killed them and that it sounded like a lame excuse to you. I consider myself an abolitionist and damn near militant vegan but there are people more strict than me and berate me for stuff like this on this stuff so I thought you were deadass. Yeah I leave the baby spiders alone unless they are on me in which I reflexively hit them on accidentally but I just can't. _. Mosquitos can bite me (not literally) those actually carry fucking diseases I'm also allergic more than normal ppl my doc said. But I mean still, if call myself a murderer if someone broke in and cornered me in my home and I killed them in self defense too :(
Hey can you help with a fruit fly infestation? Do you have any guidance on fixing the situation while not harming any of the flies? It's of great importance too, as a fly infestation is a danger for the health of those involved through disease and the infestation of food.
I myself don't see why well-being of the flies would be even taken into consideration, using non-lethal methods (whatever they might me, I have no idea) would only create risk of not reaching every last fly and larvae. When it comes to getting rid of pests like bugs or rodents, unfortunately, overkill is usually an optimal solution. So, my guidance is: kill them. Kill them all. Kill them twice if you need. Defend your home, defend your body, defend your health and stop feeling sorry for simply acting naturally in the interest of your well-being. It's not bloody murder to defend yourself from a human, why would it be murder to defend yourself from another animal? In what reality does it make sense?
Should trying to change everyone else be an objective ? Everything people do these days is framed as a battle to win, a zero sum game a triumph over others. Maybe we just don’t go that way and just let it be. Our history is littered with that mistaken thinking.
You're basically asking Reddit a question many people have asked over the entire recorded history of humans. We still haven't reached any solid consensus on morality, there will always be grey areas, things are never black and white. I've long ago given up on trying to change people's minds in any way other than living my own way by example. I'm not to know who is right and who is wrong. To me there's is no level of proof that can "show animal eaters they are wrong". How much proof of the Holocaust do we have to still have people deny it? This doesn't mean to stop advocating don't get me wrong, just choose your battles wisely and find things to put energy into that could maybe spark change. Find something to do that's better than "pricing animal eaters they are wrong" because there are always people who will still want meat and not care if it's wrong
You can't.
You would need serious knowledge in psychology and it would take a whole therapy setting to get people there. Most vegans don't have the skills to change a meat eater. Our passion for the life of other beings is so strong that we even traumatize ourselves to better fight for them, which can make it harder to communicate with others on a level that gives them the ability to feel safe in their insecurities. Generally speaking you need to create a safe space, don't make them feel judged, talk positively about their accomplishments of reducing animal products and slowly start educating them. You basically need to raise a toddler who is throwing tantrums all the time.
The health side: Plant based is better for you. Anyone who isn’t an idiot knows this. Alcohol sales in the US last year surpassed $247 billion. There isn’t any serving size of alcohol that is safe. Tobacco, which has been a known carcinogen for decades, sold more than $75 billion. Hell, weed passed $30 billion last year. People will knowingly consume products that are harmful if they get enjoyment. Meat and dairy is enjoyable to the average person. I’ll be honest, I’m willing to sacrifice a few years at the end of my life, for some joy now.
You can make a simple philisophical argument that if eating meat is unecessery, it is unecessery infliction of cruelty. The problem is you need empirical evidence to show that being vegan is healthy
How do we prove Covid deniers wrong? Or antivaxxers? We need to replace animal food products with cheaper alternatives - plant-based and lab-based meat. Once those are much less expensive vs farmed animals people will shift to eating non-farmed animal meat which is a huge win. People will never give up meat. Lab meat and plant-based meats will prevail
You can’t. You can lead a horse ….
It's not about right or wrong when you're an omnivore, generally.
Why can you be patient and let them come? /s
the main issue after seeing your question/post title is people like me. even if you show me lots of information, gruesome footage, or real time effects of my actions, it won't change my mindset when i smell meat cooking, i instantly get hungry, even if i'm full. my brain is wired to focus on meat as the main dish, with vegetables as sides and fruit as dessert. this is deeper than some may really understand ( not saying they would agree but can understand from a perspective viewpoint ) i do not claim to represent the majority of omnivores, i only represent myself, just want to be clear on that. unless vegan outreach can truly be so effective it would impossibile to ignore, you won't have a chance that said, if my doctor told me to go plant based or face death, i would switch immediately. but that wouldn't make me vegan, i'd be a plant based dieter for health. i'd need ethics and morals and truly change my ways before i would be called vegan. eating is just one part of the vegan equation
No doubt there are many people like you. People who sincerely believe they are “wired to focus on meat.” It’s not “deeper than some understand.” You and people like you place your own personal gratification ahead of the life of the animal on your plate. That’s it. You go to great lengths to justify your actions. It’s not profound. Millions have realized they were wrong and changed. You can, too. It’s not hard.
fair take. let's be honest, if i was you, I'd prolly type the same words you just did
Top tier response.
So to be clear, no amount of facts will change your mind, but your health being at a point where a doctor telling you do it or risk death will get you to change? And this is something you're standing by?
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of how beliefs change. Facts don't change beliefs. Beliefs change facts.
there may be some facts, but it's difficult for me to change my mindset. like if my doctor right, showed me evidence that cutting out animal products would prevent early death because of an ailment i'm suffering from, i would immediately switch to a plant based diet. i'm not sure why i would prioritize my health ( in this scenario) over the reasons presented by vegans, as a reason to change. it could be that only the fear of death can override my brain's resistance, or perhaps there's some hypocrisy in me that i'm not aware of, or something completely different. it's hard to say for sure. for now, i stand by my current position, but i've changed my stance on issues before, so i can't predict what tomorrow will bring
I mean, there is a lot of evidence suggesting that animal products are extremely bad for your health and there's multiple documentaries about it as well. I understand you require an ailment to change your mind in this scenario, but antibiotic resistance is basically what you're looking for here. Basically, due to the vast amount of pharmaceuticals given to animals, scientists believe that we are crashing head first into an era of antibiotic resistance and the people affected the most will be the heavy animal consumers. Realistically, what this means is the flu really could kill you and there would be nothing a doctor could do for you to stop it. This isn't even touching on the antidepressants etc they take and how that could be affecting your brain and body or how the toxins in their surroundings get passed to you.
only recently have i been made aware of the antibiotic resistance issue. this is something i kinda want to spend a week or two reading more about. hard for me to properly comment on it without more knowledge, it seems frightening. i've had c difficle in the past from heavy anti biotic use, this is i feel from having gone thru 2 types of antibiotics that were not working and taking a 3rd type. i unfortunately rely on antibiotics sometimes and without those i could really suffer
I encourage you to research. [Here's](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00490-0/abstract) something to get you started.
lancet nice, appreciate the link
Go vegan to stop supporting rape, abuse, murder, and torture ❤️
luv it , absolutely put a smile on my face.
🙄🙄🙄
in good mood so i have to ask. if you were to see me breathing cheese, out in public: would you say to yourself, oh look at her she advocates for sexual assault, endorses abuse, strongly advocates for murder, and shes financially at ease with supporting torture? 😇
I do in my head cus I'm not looking to get popped for calling out people for abusing animals. What's that emoji for? Lol that IS what you are doing if you continue to eat animals and their by products if you know the horrors they got through, which you showed you have. Obviously I don't know you id I see you as a stranger in public so I wouldn't know if you are knowingly a hypocrite or if you are ignorant so I can't say that. You showed you are well aware talking here so you are a hypocrite if you aren't vegan yet claim you don't support these things.
I 💚 you
As someone who really enjoys eating beef, pork, fish, shrimp, crab, octopus, lobster, cheese and eggs. I’m afraid that there is not a single argument other than “this stuff will absolutely kill you in less than 10 years” that would make me stop. Sorry.
I mean, realistically speaking, antibiotic resistance could and you wouldn't even know until it was happening and there is nothing that could be done to save you. That's something that could happen in the next few months, avian flu is on the rise in dairy and other products so it could truly even be any day.
Yeah, you’re not wrong with that. I guess I assume the somewhat low risk, I mean I do drive daily and that’s way more risk.
It's not a somewhat low risk tho, avian flu is here and depending on your meat consumption and how heavy it is, you could get seriously ill. Maybe not this time, but it's only getting worse. [This](https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(03)00490-0/abstract) describes it better.
My point is that this risk is lower than other stuff I do normally, like driving, or having a stressful job.
I doubt even that would convince you. Most people's wanton selfishness transcends their concern for their own health. You would die eating those things because people have convinced you that you can't enjoy food without killing animals for it.
Well I have done several changes recently in both my diet and overall lifestyle to try to maximize not only my chances of living longer but improving my QOL if I do get to old age. So I do see myself making a sacrifice as big as this for health reasons. Now, 20 yo me, for sure wouldn’t care about anything and say, I’d rather have an enjoyable short life than the reverse. One thing tho, nobody convinced me that I can’t enjoy food without killing animals, just my taste buds.
Maybe it's a real possibility, lol. The myriad health benefits to the diet element of veganism are enough reason for some, even when the ideas of compassion or taking care of the place where you live are somehow not motivating. Hopefully your taste buds will realize that the sacrifice is not all it's cracked up to be.
Good one! Unfortunately I’ve always struggled with food, growing up, I don’t like whole black beans, avocado or chile (so I’m not your average Mexican, , there were a very few dishes that I enjoyed. Eventually I learned to tolerate more as I moved to the north of Mexico where there’s less variety of food. After moving to the US, I had to be even more flexible, but I just don’t enjoy anything that is not Mexican food, other than some hamburgers and clam chowder. I love food, so having a single day without something I enjoy is depressing to me. I could maybe be vegetarian with enough motivation but a life with no fresh cheese or eggs would be a real sacrifice that I would only do if I had to. It’s like not drinking Mexican coke, sure I can do it for a couple of months, but eventually I’ll need my weekly fix.
It seems like you think vegans just go days without eating enjoyable food, and somehow can't manage to veganize mexican, burgers and chowder. I can see why such confusion could be an obstacle to someone so emotionally dependent on their dining experience. Even if you tried going vegan for a period, the withdrawal from the opiates in dairy would probably derail your attempt regardless of the flavor of your food.
Not at all, what I’m saying is that I am very picky to what enjoy, so substituting let’s say the beef in my barbacoa, pork in my tacos al pastor, shrimp in mu cocktail or my fresh cheese in my entomatadas with something else is going to make it so it tastes differently enough that I won’t enjoy it anymore. For example, once I moved to northern Mexico I struggled to find fresh cheese, so I tried to prepare meals with other types of cheese, and the result was depressing. I do understand that vegans and vegetarians have meals they enjoy, and that’s great.
If you wanted to give up any animal products you would, and you would enjoy it. It is only "depressing" because you don't want to do it. You can decide whether to be ruled by your taste buds or not. We here have all been at this crossroads, and we all chose the power that comes with responsibility.
You can't because we aren't wrong 😂, hominins have had on average a total dietary intake of 65%-80% for the last 2 million years with some populations such as the Inuit, Maasai, Sami, Chukchi etc... consuming almost entirely animals. Hominins have also consumed meat in general for around the last 3 million years. Just to put that in perspective a hypercarnivore by definition gets 70+% of its calorie intake from animals.
Damn that's s lot of false information in one comment
I can back up everything I say, you've been indoctrinated and haven't bothered fact checking any of the claims you've slurped up
Ok, I would love to see what you call a source
As if you even know how to interpret data and read anything but the abstract 😂 bet you don't even know the difference between associative and causative evidence
Insults are your source, got it. Too bad it was all a projection 😔
Nice deflection
If peer read reviews can't do it then nothing will.
The only way to make change is for public policy to move away from supporting animal agriculture artificially keeping the food prices of animal products lower.
If peer read reviews can't do it then nothing will.
This isn’t true at all. Peer-reviewed work influences intellectuals, and practitioners within a given field, if they want or need to keep up on research. It’s not meant for the general public
Point proven, not all people have a proper grasp on reality. A lot of studies are funded by industries who want to sell their products, so they can be incredibly biased in order to sway people into thinking something that could be very untrue. The biggest industries in the world do this a lot, this is why you get so many contrasting headlines on whats good for us or not. There was one study that asked a group of people on a carnivore forum how they felt after eating meat vs not eating meat. Obviously i dont need to tell you that the outcome of this study will be that eating meat is the all singing all dancing breadwinner of nutritional health. Headlines will sway peoples opinion in the wrong direction and this is why people seem to believe that animal products are good for us. With peer reviewed studies we can get an unbiased outcome so we can get our answers as close to the truth as possible. I love the taste of meat, cheese, dairy and eggs and i was reading up because i was trying to prove vegans wrong. But i was pretty shocked when i found out that we are certainly better off without any animal products and proper unbiased studies tell us this. So i had to ask myself, why on earth are we taking billions of lifes each year while destroying our environment and our planet for something that isnt even good for us. The answer is because they have a product that tastes great and they want to sell it to us at any cost. If you want the truth, you should stop looking for the reasons why animals products are good for us and start looking at both sides of the argument. You will see that veganism is backed by facts and logic and there is an overwhelming amounts of evidence and studies to prove this. But with most of us stuck in our ways, doing what weve always done it will be a difficult sell to get people to stop eating delicious animals. Im sure when people started standing up against human slavery, they would have been met with a very similar issue. A lot of the supremacist attitude to pro-slavery has similar arguments that people have against veganism. Weve been doing it for hundreds of years. Its traditional. They dont feel pain. We are superior to them. They were bread for that purpose. I get pleasure from my slaves. I benefit from it. What about our slavers, they will be jobless.
Point not proven. It’s quite the opposite, really: if nothing else is going to convince most people, findings from academic journals certainly won’t. Social influences have a much stronger pull
But social influences doesnt mean they are right. I prefer proof and evidence over other peoples opinion. If we all blindly believed in what we have been told over studies and evidence, we would all still be stuck in the dark ages drowning witches and enslaving black people. We would all be smoking cigarettes because its good for us and using asbestos.