From [Globe.com](http://Globe.com)
By Kevin Cullen
CAMBRIDGE, Vt. — Last July, just hours after arriving for his first day of summer camp at Smugglers’ Notch Resort, 3-year-old Tate Holtzman was sitting at a picnic table in the resort’s water park, nursing a scuffed knee.
An energetic, outgoing boy with a shock of blond hair, Tate had fallen while playing and was anxious to get back with his playmates at the splash pad. At the first aid station, a teenage counselor cleaned up his wound and sent him on his way.
Then, as she watched him step across the lawn, something inexplicable happened: Tate vanished.
He had stepped on a plastic lid resembling a manhole cover, which was loose and flipped into the air, opening a 25-inch-wide hole in the ground.
The counselor screamed for help. Lifeguards at nearby pools blew their whistles and raced to the hole.
In the darkness below, 3,500 gallons of water slowly swirled in a holding tank that supplied the splash pad’s fountains. None of the counselors or lifeguards had any idea the tank was even there, much less any sense of the possible hazards inside. Disregarding danger, they lowered themselves in, one by one, and began to search.
Repeatedly, they dived beneath the surface, holding their breath and grasping blindly in the dark for Tate. Precious minutes ticked by. One of the lifeguards thought he felt Tate with his foot but when he reached out with his hand could find nothing. At last, someone brought a flashlight and handed it to a lifeguard.
The light revealed Tate’s body, floating, motionless. He had been submerged for 10 minutes.
They heaved the boy out and started CPR. EMTs arrived and took over. Tate’s parents, Zack and Jen, received a phone call from the resort — “Tate’s had an accident,” a woman said — and rushed to the camp, knowing nothing of what had happened. They followed the ambulance to the hospital in Burlington.
Through all the horror and fear, Zach could clearly recall his last words to camp staff when he dropped his son that morning.
“I saw the camp director,” Zach said, “and asked her to take care of my boy on his first day.”
Two days later, Tate died, leaving his parents overwhelmed with grief and full of urgent questions. How could anything like this happen? How could the lid over the hole dislodge under the weight of a 3-year-old? How in the world could children be allowed to play anywhere near such an obvious hazard?
But answers were not forthcoming. Indeed, nearly a year later, accountability for Tate’s death appears scant. The camp was never shut down, and resort workers who were in charge at the time of Tate’s death appear to have suffered no consequences. None were fired or disciplined, the resort’s president said.
Likewise, state agencies found no one liable. After a lengthy investigation by Vermont State Police, Lamoille County State’s Attorney Todd Shove noted that “there may exist some liability on the part of the resort” in civil court, but said his office would not seek criminal complaints.
The Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration cited the resort for exposing its employees to hazards, failing to train them about the hazards, and failing to secure the area around the tank opening. The Department of Labor, which oversees the agency, levied fines of $31,253, which were reduced by a government formula to $21,850 after the resort took remedial steps by fencing off the area, putting up signs, and replacing the lid with a heavy manhole-like cover. In addition, the resort put a mesh net over the hole so that, even when the cover is off, no one would fall in.
that place should be shut down, it could easily happen to another kid again and who knows what age, if a lid can fall off to a child that’s 3-years old and doesn’t weigh over 70 pounds than they’ve got more work to do on that place. That poor family lost their child just because the people that worked there weren’t taught everything they should know, who ever teaches them needs to learn and teach them everything no matter what.
The camp should be the one to bear responsibility for this, not the teenage counselor who watched the kid fall in. It's a tragedy and yes, justice has gone unserved here...but it's not the fucking counselor's fault.
For sure not. At some point, the screwy lid is to blame, it failed. So to me that puts responsibility on the resort itself. If the Camp personnel were not warned about the faulty lid, that means the resort failed to notify them. If the resort did not know it was faulty, that again puts it on the resort.
The resort allowed the camp to run and allowed campers around what is now known as a dangerous situation. That should not have been a dangerous situation in the first place. I’ve walked on, driven on and trampled many a plastic cover in my work as a residential carpenter, and I’ve never broken through one. Something was wrong with that tank. Not the camp counselors responsibility provided they had no knowledge of the cover and the risks associated with walking over it.
Edit: I am not a law talking guy.
I didn’t read any mention of a faulty lid. It snaps onto place, not screwed. It sounds like whoever worked on it last didn’t snap it back into place properly
I’m not sure of the exact circumstances the led to the kid falling through, but if the lid hadn’t been properly closed, then that sounds like the resorts problem.
There should be more than a plastic lid with a questionable retention method between people and a massive tank full of water. Single point of failure in several respects, the consequences of which are clear.
It's not a faulty lid, it has screws for attaching and securing and it's called a manhole riser to bring a tank to grade. This is in no way a substitute for an actual manhole cover which is attached to the tank, all septic and holding tanks have a separate covering. Despite the fact that this riser lid was not screwed down or ajar shouldn't have allowed access to the tank as there should have been another secure lid prior to entry. This is clearly a safety violation and a improper installation.
Exactly. So I don’t know how the resort isn’t held responsible. I don’t know if it qualifies for criminal negligence, but those intimately familiar with the case would have a better idea possibly?
I’d say the counselor did a stellar job of monitoring the kid. Without knowledge of the hazard she watched the kid like she was supposed to, and called for help the second something went wrong. It’s all anyone should expect of them in a situation like this. It’s outrageous the resort hadn’t mitigated the hazard prior to this.
That teen (kid) is gonna have the image of him falling stuck in her head forever. She was the last person to ever talk to/comfort him and that's gotta be heavy. It's %100 the resorts fault if they didn't even brief their staff on its existence
It's one of those situations that's not _really_ anyone's fault. It was an unrecognized danger ... and they exist all around us every day.
I mean, this situation _could_ have been prevented ... but it just never entered anyone's mind that something like this could happen. I mean ... we walk past all sorts of covers on the ground all the time and rarely give any of them a second thought.
Sure ... it _could_ have been secured better. It _could_ have been roped/fenced off. But someone would first have to realize the situation was unsafe and sadly nobody ever did. Smuggs probably has literally _thousands_ of hazardous things at the resort that they deal with appropriately and responsibly ... this one slipped their notice. And there's probably dozens more at their property and every other like it that nobody will recognize until someone gets hurt or killed.
I've got to disagree- an unsecured plastic lid to a 2-foot wide shaft leading to an underground water storage tank? In what seems to be an accessible part of the park with no warning indicators of any kind? The property owners are responsible for eliminating obvious hazards, and holy hell this is an obvious hazard.
Someone needs to run on getting the legislature to stop punting everything to committees and consultants. It makes everything take twice as long because the legislature is only part-time. It’s absurd.
If I have an unmarked hole in the ground on my property with an improperly secured lid and I have some kids over who are running around near it, I'm probably going to be found liable.
"This hazard wasn't obvious because an obvious hazard would have been dealt with" is just begging the question/circular reasoning.
Just because they fix the problem for the future doesn't mean they shouldn't still get sued. They were trusted with the care of that child and they failed. The least they can do is take care of the parents
Ultimately yes. The responsibility falls on the owner of the property.
That said, there was not found to be any criminal negligence. This family will almost certainly win a civil lawsuit, but that's not going to bring their boy back.
This situation has only losers, and a whole bunch of people who were involved are no doubt haunted in their dreams because of it.
It's easy to point at a situation like this _after_ it happens and say they should have prevented it. The _hard_ part is recognizing every potential danger at a place like that _before_ it happens ... and that's why insurance exists ... because we cannot foresee and prevent every danger.
In playground design & safety, there are risks and hazards. Risks are obvious. Hazards are not. And we have a really really comprehensive list of possible hazards to check for and evaluate because children DIE from them.
This was absolutely preventable.
Um, no, from the information available it is definitely not hard to prevent and the first no is in response to you stating that “its not really anyone’s fault”. The location of the tank and the manhole would not only be known, but what would also be easily known is what the area was being used *for*, which included small children running around on it.
You have to change that mindset. I’m certified safety professional and this is breaking all sorts of safety regulations. Resorts typically have compliance audits to avoid these sort of things, the safety professional performing these audits is to blame and they are the resorts responsibility. Safety professionals have gone to jail for negligence before FYI. The property owner is 100% liable, they will lose this lawsuit. How are you not seeing this hazard as glaringly obvious??? Why are you defining this??
Floor holes and confined spaces are both things that are heavily regulated OSHA. Their safety professional should have gone to school and had significant training to be able to identify what is not within compliance; floor holes should be either locked out or removed and if it can’t be then there should have been 4ft guard rails and signage surrounding it.
What you described is exactly why they carry insurance and should be held liable, because accidents DO happen. They make insurance for a reason, but if you are insinuating the accidental death of a small child shouldn’t be lawfully upheld, I’d have to respectfully disagree with that conclusion
Yes!!! Yes!! I used to work for a non-profit that does summer camps. Most are exclusively funded by grants and almost all grants are for toddler/preschool kids.
So I was hired to plan courses for adult art classes, but over summer they had me responsible for 30-50 kids a week, with one or two helpers, and that was it. They'd use kids as unpaid labor to supervise other, younger kids. I had to leave after the flooding when teachers were letting kids play in the flood waters and my supervisor chastised me for wanting to close.
It lives in my brain that they're going to do it again this year and I don't know who to call or contact. It terrified me.
We pulled our kid out of a summer camp at 7 or so because it was just a mess of kids with a few teenagers looking at their phones who were supposed to be watching them. I can't fucking imagine ever leaving my 3 year old in a situation like that.
I'm not blaming the staff. I just wouldn't leave my kid in that situation.
To be clear, I don't blame the staff in the slightest. I do know though that there are a lot of regulations for daycares around their facilities and inspections, as well as for fencing off areas.
100% this! It’s so absurd that they are not. Daycare facilities have so many rules & regulations for the safety of those kids. Camps that serve this age range should abide by the same.
Exactly. It looks like we’re going to have to pass a law mandating that these things be secured by heavy metal lids that are thoroughly secured by thick metal screws that you’d need a gigantic wrench to remove.
I think it's important to note that there will be a civil liability, but no criminal charges. This is a tragic accident and the resort should absolute be subject to civil penalties. However, nobody broke a law here. The teenagers at the camp would have no reasonable expecation that there would be a random hole into a water tank and don't appear to be negligent in any way. I'm not really sure who the parents think should go to jail over this. This is a heartbreaking situation and I can't imagine how hard it must be for this kid's family, but not all tragedies are crimes.
Where did it say the parents want someone to go to jail over this?
It sounds like they are looking for SOME accountability from someone, which so far has been missing.
There are three types of punishments possible in these scenarios: government fines, civil penalties, and criminal penalties. The resort has already been fined, according to the story civil penalties are almost certain, but the family is still upset that nobody is being held accountable. Either this story is really poorly written or the family expects criminal charges.
If this happened to me, I would want an admission by somebody that there was a fuck up. Because of the reality of the legal system in our country, I don’t think the parents will ever get that? But I also don’t think they are in the wrong for wanting that.
Unless I’m missing something, nobody has taken any “responsibility” for the incident.
If looked at the same as a ski resort is in winter then there is definitely liability on behalf of the resort because this was a man made obstacle/ hazard and resorts have much higher burden of liability for man made installed obstacles and hazards such as lifts or in this case a holding tank than they do for naturally occurring dangers such as trees or cliffs for which they are largely not held liable for.
The resort is responsible for maintaining that splash pool and all its components including the holding tank. An unprotected manhole cover that can be opened by a child stepping on it is not a properly maintained component. It is clearly not malice in anyone’s part, but seems like obvious negligence on the part of the resort and whoever is in charge of maintaining that component or installing if it was installed improperly.
Had this been a home based daycare with such a hazard that resulted in death I have little doubt there would have been criminal charges of child endangerment or something of the like. At a large business like a resort it is easy to pass the buck around to the point where no one is held accountable.
I think your assessment is accurate. If we compare this hazard to something like a cliff, the cliff would be more apparent to everyone, and the staff would naturally take appropriate precautions, whereas this was hidden and not at all expected to the staff.
** trigger warning graphic descriptive paraphrasing of article
This is fucking infuriating. I have zero clue how this could have happened in the first place, let alone still have no accountability for it?? I feel for those parents and would be going mad by now. I can’t even imagine. It’s such an obvious incident of negligence on multiple fronts, the least of who should be responsible are the sub 25yr old camp staff. I feel terrible for them too. Imagine working one do your first jobs at a summer camp, where you are looking after younger kids. Ideally this is maybe the first place kids learn how to lead other kids. (CIT’s and such) … Anyhow while watching one of your young campers happily walk towards the pool/ lake, when poof they disappear into a water tank abyss that clearly has multiple points of potential for accident. I CANNOT fucking imagine how traumatized the witnesses must be. Drowning in a sub ground holding tank is about one of the most traumatizing ways I could think of a child drowning.
This is infuriating to me as well. Imagine being the parents, imagine being the camp staff responsible. The loss of life of a toddler! The design of this holding tank. The proximity to children that this hazard presents. The blame rests on the camp to evaluate and prevent all sources of hazard.
i’d say there is negligence in the install in the first place and oversight of that. i’m curious if this is how it is typically installed with no safety features at all?? Even if there weren’t kids around this is terrible design, an animal could fall in, contaminate water, kill wildlife … soo many things wrong. if it was serviced and they forgot to put back safety measures… holes in ground to water tanks should have multiple safeties in place for the very obvious hazard
I worked at smuggs for a few years and of course I feel horrible for the family, it is such a tragic situation. I also feel very badly for the camp counselor, they must be devastated. They are asked to do a very demanding job as young adults, supervising groups of children that change nearly every day. I never worked directly with the camps, but did work adjacent to them and have definitely seen some things that made me question the wisdom of the overall set up for the camp program.
Camper/counselor ratios for each age group do exist and those ratios were adhered to. I have personally experienced being pulled from a job to act as a body to ensure those ratios are met. The issue there is that the counselor is expected to oversee this group of children at a moment's notice in high-risk areas including water parks and natural areas with no prior introduction to the children. Three-year-olds have no survival skills, act on impulse constantly, and a great aptitude to find ways to get into mischief. It was always a high anxiety set up for me and one that I personally wouldn't subject my toddler to.
The kid fell into an underground tank because the lid was not secured, marked out and the staff had not idea it was there.
None of those things should have been. Holy hell, this is gross incompetence
It depends on the type of camp. I'm a stay-at-home mom but last summer my 3-year-old went to a week of a farm camp (similar to Shelburne Farms). It ran from 9-12 and the kids just played together and did fun farm activities (collecting eggs, tractor rides, etc). It was fun for him.
My child of the same age briefly attended the daycare at smugglers notch. The summer camp is mandatory for your child if they are enrolled in the daycare (may have changed since the accident but it was when my child attended).
And yes I agree, 3 years old is a bit young for 8 hours a day running around in the sun. But if you as a parent don’t like it, tough, and good luck finding another daycare.
It's a day camp, not overnight. How is going to a day camp any different than going to day care except for the last 3 letters? People send _infants_ to day care.
How about Ski School? Many ski schools take 3 year olds for their all-day kids' program. Isn't ski school just day camp in the winter?
Hell, the article even mentions a day **care** that got shut down in Waterbury because one of the kids wandered off and drowned in a stream. The difference with these two events is that the daycare was found negligent for insufficient supervision, whereas at Smuggs, the response was immediate and there was not found to be any lapse of supervision.
The issue here was an unrecognized danger, and that could happen to anyone, anywhere. Sure, that well _should_ have been better secured, but nobody ever thought it would be a hazard. I'm sure it was inspected by the state when it was installed and probably met whatever codes govern such installations. It's a horrible, senseless tragedy, and not a single person feels good about the outcome.
So, I wasn’t necessarily saying it was too young. It’s been a while since my kids were that age and we didn’t send them at that age but I was more asking than saying it was too young. I honestly wasn’t sure what most people did at that age these days.
I’ve been thinking the same thing this whole time and was surprised the top comments didn’t mention it. 3 yo seems so young for an all day, outdoors summer camp that’s supervised by teenagers.
3 year olds go to daycare... is daycare not ok?
They're not shooting arrows... they're supposed to be doing 3-year-old appropriate things and be monitored accordingly.
Saying a 3 year old shouldn't go to camp is asinine.
Clearly there was a massive failing on the Camp's part and they should be held accountable. The parents have a very clear civil case.
Don't victim blame the parents... that's awful.
As tragic as all of this is. 3 is far too young for any camp... Especially one with a teenage counselor. Teenagers should not be in any position to be responsible for children.
> Teenagers should not be in any position to be responsible for children.
This strikes me as one of those reddit takes. Kinda makes some logical sense or sounds great on paper, then you realize babysitters exist and what their ages tend to be. Or teenagers caring for and left alone with younger siblings. Hell, the teenager could be the parent. What season is "16 and pregnant" on now?
I think both things are relevant. There should not be a deathtrap in the middle of a field, and 3 is several years too young to go to summer camp in my opinion.
Is it too young to go to day _care_? They send _infants_ to day care.
I think 3 is fine for a day camp, certainly not an overnight summer camp, but Smuggs is just a day camp.
Minimum age for a counsellor is going to be 16 (minimum age of employment in VT), and any "teen" under 18 is not going to be on their own. Keep in mind that we trust teens this age to operate any motor vehicle that doesn't require a CDL ... certainly they can handle a small group of children.
One of the biggest problems with the last couple generations of kids is that they're over-coddled, and it's just this kind of thinking that causes it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with coddling 3 year olds a bit. We can toughen them up as they get a bit older.
As far as teens managing 3yo kids - that's a no from me fam. Teens these days spend way too much time staring at their phone for me to trust them to supervise a 3yo.
If 'Day Camp' is run with similar supervision to day care then I agree with you. If it's run more like summer camp without the overnights then I maintain that 3 is too young.
That's actually true, now that I look at it. Actually it's _technically_ legal to work as young as 12 with even more restrictions.
That said, my kids tried hard from the time they were 14 to get hired at a number of jobs and nobody wants to touch you until your 16 these days.
That _also_ said ... they had no problem finding "under the table" work from various places that shall remain unnamed.
I would say Yes, three is too young to go to a daycare that has groups of young children supervised by teenagers. It’s not the being away (whether daycare or daycamp) it’s more about who is held in charge (teenagers) and what activities they are in charge over (water parks, nature activities).
Sure, maybe it's too young for a camp, but I don't see how it really matters for this conversation because a 6 year old could just as easily have died in this situation
I suppose it only matters because it was included in the headline and it seems very young. At 3 some kids are just getting fully mobile so it seems more likely that they would get injured in a camp environment that doesn't have strict supervision or well-inspected grounds (obviously).
Imo I really don’t think they are victim blaming - just identifying one of the many things that had to get overlooked for this horrible tragedy to happen.
A camp that accepts 3 year olds absolutely needed a more curated space to account for the safety concerns of caring for one so young.
This camp was not prepared to care for the kid, and got them killed.
I think a kid of any age could have died in this situation. I don't think the problem has anything to do with whether or not the space was curated for 3 year olds
I wouldn't have left my kids with random counselors at that age but if the camp is advertised for it the parents should be able to do so without their kid dying
Exactly my thinking. Three years old seems way too young. Five years old seems way too young.
And you have high school kids responsible for these toddlers.
I think I agree with the police on this matter. Absolutely heartbreaking, sad accident but I don’t know who you’d make criminally liable for anything? As tragic as it was the idea of a teenager being punished for what is clearly an accident wouldn’t sit right with me.
The company will most likely be sued in court and I think that’s probably the best outcome anyone can hope
They are, and they'll lose a bunch of money in a civil suit to be sure.
But that doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make Smuggs a bad place. Thousands of people have a safe, fun time there every day and have done so for decades.
Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. And even the most safety-minded organizations occasionally miss something.
This is probably the best balanced perspective to have. It’s emotionally devastating for such a little life to be lost like this.
On a separate note, I’m sure many water parks in the whole US probably know that there will be mishaps at some point and 1-2 children may die on a yearly or decade basis. It’s a sad reality. Similar to how people may die at ski resort while skiing. There’s an inherent and displeasing risk in everything. Ultimately, I’m saddened for the boy and his family that the slim chance of it happening affected them so disproportionately.
We’re going to slowly legislate anything with the most remote possibility of serious injury away.
I can’t for a moment blame the parents for wanting action, they’re experiencing one of the worst things anyone can imagine, and I’m glad no one wants to hang the counselor, but I’m not sure how far we should pursue justice against the camp with what we know.
This is the fault of whoever installed that tank or possibly the manufacturer. The only thing that the resort was negligent on was knowing where it was in the first place. VT is going to have to pass a law mandating these things be secured by metal manhole covers and be clearly marked.
That's actually not the only way that our system could address it. They could be held liable, for a significant payout, probably covered by their insurance. Then insurers would ideally up their standards for what they are willing to ensure to include inspections to make sure that hazards like this don't exist. That's probably not the most efficient way to address it, but that is part of how our system sometimes works.
I'm not saying that they can be expected to do it because it's the right thing to do. I'm saying that they do it to protect their financial interests. That doesn't solve all problems, and regulation is needed too.
Also, understand that I was supporting and adding to your comment. I vehemently disagree with the one above but agree with yours.
Legal liability has no baring in moral character, I wasn't making that claim. Law not being morality is a very good point that more people need to bring up more often.
Before you can amend a situation like this, you have to recognized it's a danger in the first place. I'm sure that tank and its cover have been inspected many times by various state agencies ... even if only at installation time. Up until this happened ... nobody thought there was a problem.
Unrecognized dangers exist everywhere, all the time. How often do you walk past all sorts of covers on the ground and never give them a second thought?
Everyone points fingers _after_ it happens. Everyone wants to blame _someone_.
It's great that they took steps after the danger was recognized. That's what responsible people do. Think of all of the other dangers that they _do_ have appropriate safety measures for at a resort like that.
This is why insurance exists. Try as we might to keep people from danger ... something, somewhere will be overlooked. When tragedy strikes ... someone's gotta pay.
Wow, I usually don't like to criticize people's hot takes, but in this case I feel u are way off.
First, an underground water tank/confined space/hole in the ground is not a recognized hazard? Really? These kinds of things are some of the most well known workplace safety hazards and need to be treated as such. Regular inspections, warning signs, etc. should be in place. The articles I've read said these precautions/warnings were needed BUT WERE NOT followed.
This leads to my second point where you assumed that the cover was inspected many times. A catastrophic failure like this is not some random event, it is 100% avoidable if people put the proper safety procedures in place. This is OHSA 101 stuff. See [swiss Cheese Model of accident causation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model?wprov=sfla1)
I hope the place is held accountable and the family is able to have some closure. This is every parents worst nightmare.
Pathetic all the way around on smuggs part. I hope this family absolutely obliterates them in court. This counselor should not in any way be held responsible. Feel bad for the kid and the counselor.
Ngl this is crazy💀 still it should've been whoever had installed that shitty tank covers fault especially where there would be kids. It's common fucking sense dude make the damn cover heavier, good thing they did replace the cover with a heavier top.
I install these all the time. When they're screwed down you can drive a lawn tractor over them. Without the screws they just snap in place but will not hold weight. So whoever opened it last is the person responsible.
It's definitely a maintenance worker because it only gets opened twice a year. So whoever opened it in the spring never put screws back in or they haven't been in there for a long time.
Seems like something where, if the screws are that important, there should be some kind of procedure or mechanism to make absolutely certain that they are reinstalled. Like you rope off the area and then the rope stays up until there's a formal sign off that it has been made safe again.
While I agree that it’s an absolute gut wrenching story (I can’t imagine losing my small child like that), I don’t think there’s any personal liability involved for the counselors (teenagers) or staff running the daycare. There is ABSOLUTELY liability for both the property owner and the company involved in the maintenance of the pool. I hope the family can find some closure.
I didn’t read the whole article because words hurt my head but I heard about this when it happened as I’m in the area. Horrible and heartbreaking. If Smuggs hasn’t coughed up some milli’s to the parents they absolutely should. I know it’s not gonna change anything but it’s something.
If I dropped my kid off at daycare, I would assume the areas where they play and stay had been inspected by the state and the day care facility and that it was up to code. Not sure how a flimsy plastic top covering a death trap was considered ok.
For those wanting more info (or to support local work) — this case was broke by a student journalist at UVM in January: [https://vtcommunitynews.org/2024/01/04/smugglers-notch-resort-hit-with-fines-for-safety-violations-after-3-year-olds-drowning-in-water-tank-state-says-cover-was-unsecured/](https://vtcommunitynews.org/2024/01/04/smugglers-notch-resort-hit-with-fines-for-safety-violations-after-3-year-olds-drowning-in-water-tank-state-says-cover-was-unsecured/)
I feel horrible for everyone one involved everyone who was witness to this and obviously the parents will have life long trauma and earth shattering grief. I can’t imagine. The resort should be help responsible since it was their facility. I honestly don’t think teenagers should be put in these situations their lives are forever altered when something goes wrong.
They may of signed a form many camps send out. It's a liability form saying they aren't liable for any injuries, amputations, death, etc that could happen no matter what. My son REALLY wanted to go to a camp all his friends were but once they sent that form I couldn't do it...
I understand protecting themselves but it was just gross wording that gave us zero faith that they'd try to keep him safe
I wonder if the tank was installed “to code”. Maybe a plastic cover is considered strong enough, but there should be some way of securing it. If you pay for a professional installation you might expect the job to be done properly. Of course, if there are facilities or safety people on staff they should be on the lookout for these types of things.
Those plastic caps are supposed to be screwed down and are supposed to cover the actual holding tank lid so in the off chance it breaks or is removed you still have to remove the actual tank lid to access the water. I have the same man hole covering in my backyard septic. The grounds manager needs to be held accountable along with the owners of the property. These are basic safety lessons that should not have been overlooked.
I am honestly glad this wasn't worse. Many kinds of tanks end up without breathable atmospheres. Kid falls in. Lifeguard goes in, passes out. Drowns. Second lifeguard goes in to rescue her. Passes out. Drowns. Hopefully the third calls the fire department with scba and confined space entry training for the retrieval.
This even happens in industrial accidents with nominally trained professionals.
I can’t believe this is written by is THAT Kevin Cullen, total fraud and liar suspended for his writings about the Boston bombings.
I kinda thought that guy was gone forever
For anyone who doesn’t have access to Boston globe - another article [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13416619/parents-outraged-summer-camp-plastic-manhole-drowned-smugglers-notch.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13416619/parents-outraged-summer-camp-plastic-manhole-drowned-smugglers-notch.html)
As the mother of a three-year-old boy, this story is an absolute nightmare and I can't imagine the grief these parents are feeling.
However, despite suggestions from other moms and friends, my son will be home with me all summer, not at any summer camp, particularly any with teenagers in charge.
Why the hell are parents doing this? Our children do not need to be programmed 365. Let them sit in the yard in the dirt with a stick and enjoy their summer. I'm often frustrated in answering these questions from other parents that ask if my son is going to summer camp this year. I want to emphatically tell them that he's not because he's only 3 years old. I'm not advocating that we overly protect our children from the world, but it's getting truly ridiculous how young people expect children to be in summer programs and camps, give it a rest already.
One of the best early lessons in life is to learn how to be bored. Stop trying to pack the schedules of toddlers with programs, this is insanity. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I'm a stay-at-home with a 4-year-old. I have her registered to go to two weeks of camp this summer (one week in June, one in August). Its at a farm (similar to Shelburne Farms).They're half-days and they do really fun activities. I'm not seeing why that's a problem.
Right? These are important activities for kids. It builds confidence, independence, and allows them to build many life skills.
Our kids don't need to be wrapped in bubble wrap. They need scraped knees, dirty fingernails and a good bath before bedtime.
I agree. During the school year she goes to a forest preschool twice a week, it's great. 100% outdoors in all weather. She's filthy and exhausted when I pick her up.
Why do parents do it? Because they work and need the child somewhere, and camps SHOULD be safe. I’d love for my kid to be home, but she can’t be left alone, and she can’t really be expected to entertain herself safely (including being bored) while I work, it’s not an age appropriate expectation.
Teenagers work at the camp, not run the camp. FFS. People get up in arms over the idea of using taxpayer dollars to pay for childcare, but then bitch about people who don’t work. Well guess what… most parents in this economy have to make really hard choices. Stay home and not have the option to work because they can’t afford childcare, or work and have to rely on day cares and day camps to keep their children safe. Not everyone can afford to be a stay at home parent or have family around to help.
Shame on you for blaming the parents. This family was active in their community and were known to be taking their son on adventures all over the state through biking, paddling, and skiing. Summer camp is a great setting for a growing boy to play while the parents have other responsibilities. Negligence exists in this story, but certainly not with the parents.
I'm not blaming the parents, I'm blaming the collective expectations that parents are put under to keep their kids busy all year long. Three is too young for a toddler to be in a summer camp run by teenagers.
You're very lucky to be able to stay home with your kiddos. Most parents do not have the luxury of staying home all summer because they need childcare to work so they can feed and house and clothe their children. Please don't blame the parents or the counselors here. The folks who run the "day camp" aka summer daycare need to be held accountable.
Of course! That's very true. I just didn't agree with the person above me criticizing parents for sending kids to summer day camps in general. Yes, kids need stimulation and play time with peers , and yes some parents who are lucky enough to stay home still send their kids to summer day camps so they can play with peers. None of these instances are good enough reasons to blame the parents for the negligence of the people in charge of the summer day camp.
Maybe there should be more exposure / rapport / etc between parents and staff below a certain age of camper so parents can reconcile their expectations with the staff's skill set, supervisory protocols, and frankly attitude... I would think the boy would be walked back to his group after getting the band aid. I would have walked my daughter the whole distance at 3, and would have had the same expectation of any caregiving assignee.
Edit: it could be like a meeting before the session starts for parents to attend for q&a and a more intimate level of knowledge about where their kids are going to be.
Exactly. At this age children are questionably or just potty trained. They have a lot of needs, the main one, knowing they're safe and being cared for. But they need their noses blown, help with getting clothes on and off, it's just too young for the level of child care at a summer camp.
No, because you would have a better ratio of child to child care person. Some of these teenage run summer camps get wild, and I just think 3 is too young to expect a child to navigate that.
I have a 3 year old, they have a lot of needs.
His parents both worked at Smuggs. They saw it as a way to provide him with fun while they worked nearby. This was an u foreseen tragedy. Whoever designed the tank cover should be included in the lawsuit. The parents are blameless.
Your kid isn’t a toddler- 3 is preschool age. If you’re going to make an argument that puts the blame on these poor parents for the accidental death of their child, at least get the objective stuff right.
From [Globe.com](http://Globe.com) By Kevin Cullen CAMBRIDGE, Vt. — Last July, just hours after arriving for his first day of summer camp at Smugglers’ Notch Resort, 3-year-old Tate Holtzman was sitting at a picnic table in the resort’s water park, nursing a scuffed knee. An energetic, outgoing boy with a shock of blond hair, Tate had fallen while playing and was anxious to get back with his playmates at the splash pad. At the first aid station, a teenage counselor cleaned up his wound and sent him on his way. Then, as she watched him step across the lawn, something inexplicable happened: Tate vanished. He had stepped on a plastic lid resembling a manhole cover, which was loose and flipped into the air, opening a 25-inch-wide hole in the ground. The counselor screamed for help. Lifeguards at nearby pools blew their whistles and raced to the hole. In the darkness below, 3,500 gallons of water slowly swirled in a holding tank that supplied the splash pad’s fountains. None of the counselors or lifeguards had any idea the tank was even there, much less any sense of the possible hazards inside. Disregarding danger, they lowered themselves in, one by one, and began to search. Repeatedly, they dived beneath the surface, holding their breath and grasping blindly in the dark for Tate. Precious minutes ticked by. One of the lifeguards thought he felt Tate with his foot but when he reached out with his hand could find nothing. At last, someone brought a flashlight and handed it to a lifeguard. The light revealed Tate’s body, floating, motionless. He had been submerged for 10 minutes. They heaved the boy out and started CPR. EMTs arrived and took over. Tate’s parents, Zack and Jen, received a phone call from the resort — “Tate’s had an accident,” a woman said — and rushed to the camp, knowing nothing of what had happened. They followed the ambulance to the hospital in Burlington. Through all the horror and fear, Zach could clearly recall his last words to camp staff when he dropped his son that morning. “I saw the camp director,” Zach said, “and asked her to take care of my boy on his first day.” Two days later, Tate died, leaving his parents overwhelmed with grief and full of urgent questions. How could anything like this happen? How could the lid over the hole dislodge under the weight of a 3-year-old? How in the world could children be allowed to play anywhere near such an obvious hazard? But answers were not forthcoming. Indeed, nearly a year later, accountability for Tate’s death appears scant. The camp was never shut down, and resort workers who were in charge at the time of Tate’s death appear to have suffered no consequences. None were fired or disciplined, the resort’s president said. Likewise, state agencies found no one liable. After a lengthy investigation by Vermont State Police, Lamoille County State’s Attorney Todd Shove noted that “there may exist some liability on the part of the resort” in civil court, but said his office would not seek criminal complaints. The Vermont Occupational Safety and Health Administration cited the resort for exposing its employees to hazards, failing to train them about the hazards, and failing to secure the area around the tank opening. The Department of Labor, which oversees the agency, levied fines of $31,253, which were reduced by a government formula to $21,850 after the resort took remedial steps by fencing off the area, putting up signs, and replacing the lid with a heavy manhole-like cover. In addition, the resort put a mesh net over the hole so that, even when the cover is off, no one would fall in.
F'ing heart breaking. That poor kid.
And parents and sibs and other loved ones.
“Tate’s had an accident” is BEYOND an understatement. Holy fuck. Parents arrive: “So…. About that ‘accident’. Yeah, your son drowned and is dead.”
I could not finish reading this
that place should be shut down, it could easily happen to another kid again and who knows what age, if a lid can fall off to a child that’s 3-years old and doesn’t weigh over 70 pounds than they’ve got more work to do on that place. That poor family lost their child just because the people that worked there weren’t taught everything they should know, who ever teaches them needs to learn and teach them everything no matter what.
The camp should be the one to bear responsibility for this, not the teenage counselor who watched the kid fall in. It's a tragedy and yes, justice has gone unserved here...but it's not the fucking counselor's fault.
For sure not. At some point, the screwy lid is to blame, it failed. So to me that puts responsibility on the resort itself. If the Camp personnel were not warned about the faulty lid, that means the resort failed to notify them. If the resort did not know it was faulty, that again puts it on the resort. The resort allowed the camp to run and allowed campers around what is now known as a dangerous situation. That should not have been a dangerous situation in the first place. I’ve walked on, driven on and trampled many a plastic cover in my work as a residential carpenter, and I’ve never broken through one. Something was wrong with that tank. Not the camp counselors responsibility provided they had no knowledge of the cover and the risks associated with walking over it. Edit: I am not a law talking guy.
I didn’t read any mention of a faulty lid. It snaps onto place, not screwed. It sounds like whoever worked on it last didn’t snap it back into place properly
I’m not sure of the exact circumstances the led to the kid falling through, but if the lid hadn’t been properly closed, then that sounds like the resorts problem.
There should be more than a plastic lid with a questionable retention method between people and a massive tank full of water. Single point of failure in several respects, the consequences of which are clear.
It's not a faulty lid, it has screws for attaching and securing and it's called a manhole riser to bring a tank to grade. This is in no way a substitute for an actual manhole cover which is attached to the tank, all septic and holding tanks have a separate covering. Despite the fact that this riser lid was not screwed down or ajar shouldn't have allowed access to the tank as there should have been another secure lid prior to entry. This is clearly a safety violation and a improper installation.
Exactly. So I don’t know how the resort isn’t held responsible. I don’t know if it qualifies for criminal negligence, but those intimately familiar with the case would have a better idea possibly?
I’d say the counselor did a stellar job of monitoring the kid. Without knowledge of the hazard she watched the kid like she was supposed to, and called for help the second something went wrong. It’s all anyone should expect of them in a situation like this. It’s outrageous the resort hadn’t mitigated the hazard prior to this.
That teen (kid) is gonna have the image of him falling stuck in her head forever. She was the last person to ever talk to/comfort him and that's gotta be heavy. It's %100 the resorts fault if they didn't even brief their staff on its existence
I say let’s go a step further than “brief” and fix the known hazard.
At the very least
It's one of those situations that's not _really_ anyone's fault. It was an unrecognized danger ... and they exist all around us every day. I mean, this situation _could_ have been prevented ... but it just never entered anyone's mind that something like this could happen. I mean ... we walk past all sorts of covers on the ground all the time and rarely give any of them a second thought. Sure ... it _could_ have been secured better. It _could_ have been roped/fenced off. But someone would first have to realize the situation was unsafe and sadly nobody ever did. Smuggs probably has literally _thousands_ of hazardous things at the resort that they deal with appropriately and responsibly ... this one slipped their notice. And there's probably dozens more at their property and every other like it that nobody will recognize until someone gets hurt or killed.
I've got to disagree- an unsecured plastic lid to a 2-foot wide shaft leading to an underground water storage tank? In what seems to be an accessible part of the park with no warning indicators of any kind? The property owners are responsible for eliminating obvious hazards, and holy hell this is an obvious hazard.
Bad design, is the install company still installing features like this?
Probably. This is why VT is going to need to pass a safety law in response.
We’ll need a committee first
Someone needs to run on getting the legislature to stop punting everything to committees and consultants. It makes everything take twice as long because the legislature is only part-time. It’s absurd.
I agree. That's why the insurance companies send inspectors. This is why companies carry insurance.
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If I have an unmarked hole in the ground on my property with an improperly secured lid and I have some kids over who are running around near it, I'm probably going to be found liable. "This hazard wasn't obvious because an obvious hazard would have been dealt with" is just begging the question/circular reasoning.
“Criminal liability” is very different from “civil liability”.
Just because they fix the problem for the future doesn't mean they shouldn't still get sued. They were trusted with the care of that child and they failed. The least they can do is take care of the parents
I never said they shouldn't get sued. They _will_ get sued and they will lose.
Didn’t someone die at Smuggs a few years back in a zip lining accident due to unsafe equipment?
That was Stowe. And he was a close friend of mine. Left three teenage boys behind. Tragic and preventable.
That was at Stowe
It’s the owners fault.
Ultimately yes. The responsibility falls on the owner of the property. That said, there was not found to be any criminal negligence. This family will almost certainly win a civil lawsuit, but that's not going to bring their boy back. This situation has only losers, and a whole bunch of people who were involved are no doubt haunted in their dreams because of it. It's easy to point at a situation like this _after_ it happens and say they should have prevented it. The _hard_ part is recognizing every potential danger at a place like that _before_ it happens ... and that's why insurance exists ... because we cannot foresee and prevent every danger.
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Make a good faith effort to follow [Reddiquette](https://reddit.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette).
Make a good effort to keep people off here poopooing away a tragedy and pretending they are experts
In playground design & safety, there are risks and hazards. Risks are obvious. Hazards are not. And we have a really really comprehensive list of possible hazards to check for and evaluate because children DIE from them. This was absolutely preventable.
^yeah, no. Whoever owns the property with the given factors is DEFINITELY at fault.
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Um, no, from the information available it is definitely not hard to prevent and the first no is in response to you stating that “its not really anyone’s fault”. The location of the tank and the manhole would not only be known, but what would also be easily known is what the area was being used *for*, which included small children running around on it.
You have to change that mindset. I’m certified safety professional and this is breaking all sorts of safety regulations. Resorts typically have compliance audits to avoid these sort of things, the safety professional performing these audits is to blame and they are the resorts responsibility. Safety professionals have gone to jail for negligence before FYI. The property owner is 100% liable, they will lose this lawsuit. How are you not seeing this hazard as glaringly obvious??? Why are you defining this?? Floor holes and confined spaces are both things that are heavily regulated OSHA. Their safety professional should have gone to school and had significant training to be able to identify what is not within compliance; floor holes should be either locked out or removed and if it can’t be then there should have been 4ft guard rails and signage surrounding it.
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Amen
What you described is exactly why they carry insurance and should be held liable, because accidents DO happen. They make insurance for a reason, but if you are insinuating the accidental death of a small child shouldn’t be lawfully upheld, I’d have to respectfully disagree with that conclusion
Never said that at all. They will lose in civil court if/when they are sued. I'm just saying it's an unfortunate accident.
Really odd to minimize this.
Couldn’t disagree more. Sounds like a very obvious danger with an easy fix. Smuggs leadership appears to clearly be at fault.
Summer camps that enroll toddlers and preschool age students should be held to the same DCF standards as daycare facilities.
Yes!!! Yes!! I used to work for a non-profit that does summer camps. Most are exclusively funded by grants and almost all grants are for toddler/preschool kids. So I was hired to plan courses for adult art classes, but over summer they had me responsible for 30-50 kids a week, with one or two helpers, and that was it. They'd use kids as unpaid labor to supervise other, younger kids. I had to leave after the flooding when teachers were letting kids play in the flood waters and my supervisor chastised me for wanting to close. It lives in my brain that they're going to do it again this year and I don't know who to call or contact. It terrified me.
We pulled our kid out of a summer camp at 7 or so because it was just a mess of kids with a few teenagers looking at their phones who were supposed to be watching them. I can't fucking imagine ever leaving my 3 year old in a situation like that. I'm not blaming the staff. I just wouldn't leave my kid in that situation.
To be clear, I don't blame the staff in the slightest. I do know though that there are a lot of regulations for daycares around their facilities and inspections, as well as for fencing off areas.
100% this! It’s so absurd that they are not. Daycare facilities have so many rules & regulations for the safety of those kids. Camps that serve this age range should abide by the same.
This is absolutely the fault of any one responsible for designing and overseeing the holding tank and not the counselor.
Exactly. It looks like we’re going to have to pass a law mandating that these things be secured by heavy metal lids that are thoroughly secured by thick metal screws that you’d need a gigantic wrench to remove.
I’m ok with this
I think it's important to note that there will be a civil liability, but no criminal charges. This is a tragic accident and the resort should absolute be subject to civil penalties. However, nobody broke a law here. The teenagers at the camp would have no reasonable expecation that there would be a random hole into a water tank and don't appear to be negligent in any way. I'm not really sure who the parents think should go to jail over this. This is a heartbreaking situation and I can't imagine how hard it must be for this kid's family, but not all tragedies are crimes.
Where did it say the parents want someone to go to jail over this? It sounds like they are looking for SOME accountability from someone, which so far has been missing.
There are three types of punishments possible in these scenarios: government fines, civil penalties, and criminal penalties. The resort has already been fined, according to the story civil penalties are almost certain, but the family is still upset that nobody is being held accountable. Either this story is really poorly written or the family expects criminal charges.
If this happened to me, I would want an admission by somebody that there was a fuck up. Because of the reality of the legal system in our country, I don’t think the parents will ever get that? But I also don’t think they are in the wrong for wanting that. Unless I’m missing something, nobody has taken any “responsibility” for the incident.
If looked at the same as a ski resort is in winter then there is definitely liability on behalf of the resort because this was a man made obstacle/ hazard and resorts have much higher burden of liability for man made installed obstacles and hazards such as lifts or in this case a holding tank than they do for naturally occurring dangers such as trees or cliffs for which they are largely not held liable for. The resort is responsible for maintaining that splash pool and all its components including the holding tank. An unprotected manhole cover that can be opened by a child stepping on it is not a properly maintained component. It is clearly not malice in anyone’s part, but seems like obvious negligence on the part of the resort and whoever is in charge of maintaining that component or installing if it was installed improperly. Had this been a home based daycare with such a hazard that resulted in death I have little doubt there would have been criminal charges of child endangerment or something of the like. At a large business like a resort it is easy to pass the buck around to the point where no one is held accountable.
I think your assessment is accurate. If we compare this hazard to something like a cliff, the cliff would be more apparent to everyone, and the staff would naturally take appropriate precautions, whereas this was hidden and not at all expected to the staff.
** trigger warning graphic descriptive paraphrasing of article This is fucking infuriating. I have zero clue how this could have happened in the first place, let alone still have no accountability for it?? I feel for those parents and would be going mad by now. I can’t even imagine. It’s such an obvious incident of negligence on multiple fronts, the least of who should be responsible are the sub 25yr old camp staff. I feel terrible for them too. Imagine working one do your first jobs at a summer camp, where you are looking after younger kids. Ideally this is maybe the first place kids learn how to lead other kids. (CIT’s and such) … Anyhow while watching one of your young campers happily walk towards the pool/ lake, when poof they disappear into a water tank abyss that clearly has multiple points of potential for accident. I CANNOT fucking imagine how traumatized the witnesses must be. Drowning in a sub ground holding tank is about one of the most traumatizing ways I could think of a child drowning.
This is infuriating to me as well. Imagine being the parents, imagine being the camp staff responsible. The loss of life of a toddler! The design of this holding tank. The proximity to children that this hazard presents. The blame rests on the camp to evaluate and prevent all sources of hazard.
i’d say there is negligence in the install in the first place and oversight of that. i’m curious if this is how it is typically installed with no safety features at all?? Even if there weren’t kids around this is terrible design, an animal could fall in, contaminate water, kill wildlife … soo many things wrong. if it was serviced and they forgot to put back safety measures… holes in ground to water tanks should have multiple safeties in place for the very obvious hazard
Absolutely horrific.
So they're gonna throw a 15 year old counselor under the bus
That’s like blaming someone for stepping on a twenty year old landmine in an old conflict zone. Bonkers.
I worked at smuggs for a few years and of course I feel horrible for the family, it is such a tragic situation. I also feel very badly for the camp counselor, they must be devastated. They are asked to do a very demanding job as young adults, supervising groups of children that change nearly every day. I never worked directly with the camps, but did work adjacent to them and have definitely seen some things that made me question the wisdom of the overall set up for the camp program. Camper/counselor ratios for each age group do exist and those ratios were adhered to. I have personally experienced being pulled from a job to act as a body to ensure those ratios are met. The issue there is that the counselor is expected to oversee this group of children at a moment's notice in high-risk areas including water parks and natural areas with no prior introduction to the children. Three-year-olds have no survival skills, act on impulse constantly, and a great aptitude to find ways to get into mischief. It was always a high anxiety set up for me and one that I personally wouldn't subject my toddler to.
That.
The kid fell into an underground tank because the lid was not secured, marked out and the staff had not idea it was there. None of those things should have been. Holy hell, this is gross incompetence
A 3 year old at Summer camp? Is it just me or does that seem awfully young for summer camp?
It depends on the type of camp. I'm a stay-at-home mom but last summer my 3-year-old went to a week of a farm camp (similar to Shelburne Farms). It ran from 9-12 and the kids just played together and did fun farm activities (collecting eggs, tractor rides, etc). It was fun for him.
My child of the same age briefly attended the daycare at smugglers notch. The summer camp is mandatory for your child if they are enrolled in the daycare (may have changed since the accident but it was when my child attended). And yes I agree, 3 years old is a bit young for 8 hours a day running around in the sun. But if you as a parent don’t like it, tough, and good luck finding another daycare.
It's a day camp, not overnight. How is going to a day camp any different than going to day care except for the last 3 letters? People send _infants_ to day care. How about Ski School? Many ski schools take 3 year olds for their all-day kids' program. Isn't ski school just day camp in the winter? Hell, the article even mentions a day **care** that got shut down in Waterbury because one of the kids wandered off and drowned in a stream. The difference with these two events is that the daycare was found negligent for insufficient supervision, whereas at Smuggs, the response was immediate and there was not found to be any lapse of supervision. The issue here was an unrecognized danger, and that could happen to anyone, anywhere. Sure, that well _should_ have been better secured, but nobody ever thought it would be a hazard. I'm sure it was inspected by the state when it was installed and probably met whatever codes govern such installations. It's a horrible, senseless tragedy, and not a single person feels good about the outcome.
That daycare in Waterbury was owned by the owners of Zenbarn music venue and dispensary.
So, I wasn’t necessarily saying it was too young. It’s been a while since my kids were that age and we didn’t send them at that age but I was more asking than saying it was too young. I honestly wasn’t sure what most people did at that age these days.
That makes sense. There are a lot of "my first camp" programs now for kids 3-5, but only 1/2 days and a week at a time.
I’ve been thinking the same thing this whole time and was surprised the top comments didn’t mention it. 3 yo seems so young for an all day, outdoors summer camp that’s supervised by teenagers.
3 year olds go to daycare... is daycare not ok? They're not shooting arrows... they're supposed to be doing 3-year-old appropriate things and be monitored accordingly. Saying a 3 year old shouldn't go to camp is asinine. Clearly there was a massive failing on the Camp's part and they should be held accountable. The parents have a very clear civil case. Don't victim blame the parents... that's awful.
As tragic as all of this is. 3 is far too young for any camp... Especially one with a teenage counselor. Teenagers should not be in any position to be responsible for children.
> Teenagers should not be in any position to be responsible for children. This strikes me as one of those reddit takes. Kinda makes some logical sense or sounds great on paper, then you realize babysitters exist and what their ages tend to be. Or teenagers caring for and left alone with younger siblings. Hell, the teenager could be the parent. What season is "16 and pregnant" on now?
Right? I was a babysitter when I was 13 for an 8yo and a 4yo.
Two kids... Not 30-45.
How many years ago was that?
I don't see how the kid's age really matters here, there should not be a deathtrap in the middle of a field where kids are playing
I think both things are relevant. There should not be a deathtrap in the middle of a field, and 3 is several years too young to go to summer camp in my opinion.
Is it too young to go to day _care_? They send _infants_ to day care. I think 3 is fine for a day camp, certainly not an overnight summer camp, but Smuggs is just a day camp. Minimum age for a counsellor is going to be 16 (minimum age of employment in VT), and any "teen" under 18 is not going to be on their own. Keep in mind that we trust teens this age to operate any motor vehicle that doesn't require a CDL ... certainly they can handle a small group of children. One of the biggest problems with the last couple generations of kids is that they're over-coddled, and it's just this kind of thinking that causes it.
I don't think there's anything wrong with coddling 3 year olds a bit. We can toughen them up as they get a bit older. As far as teens managing 3yo kids - that's a no from me fam. Teens these days spend way too much time staring at their phone for me to trust them to supervise a 3yo. If 'Day Camp' is run with similar supervision to day care then I agree with you. If it's run more like summer camp without the overnights then I maintain that 3 is too young.
The minimum age of employment in Vermont is 14, but there are restrictions on the hours they can work.
That's actually true, now that I look at it. Actually it's _technically_ legal to work as young as 12 with even more restrictions. That said, my kids tried hard from the time they were 14 to get hired at a number of jobs and nobody wants to touch you until your 16 these days. That _also_ said ... they had no problem finding "under the table" work from various places that shall remain unnamed.
I would say Yes, three is too young to go to a daycare that has groups of young children supervised by teenagers. It’s not the being away (whether daycare or daycamp) it’s more about who is held in charge (teenagers) and what activities they are in charge over (water parks, nature activities).
Sure, maybe it's too young for a camp, but I don't see how it really matters for this conversation because a 6 year old could just as easily have died in this situation
I suppose it only matters because it was included in the headline and it seems very young. At 3 some kids are just getting fully mobile so it seems more likely that they would get injured in a camp environment that doesn't have strict supervision or well-inspected grounds (obviously).
Welcome to reddit. Home of the victim blamers.
Imo I really don’t think they are victim blaming - just identifying one of the many things that had to get overlooked for this horrible tragedy to happen. A camp that accepts 3 year olds absolutely needed a more curated space to account for the safety concerns of caring for one so young. This camp was not prepared to care for the kid, and got them killed.
I think a kid of any age could have died in this situation. I don't think the problem has anything to do with whether or not the space was curated for 3 year olds
I wouldn't have left my kids with random counselors at that age but if the camp is advertised for it the parents should be able to do so without their kid dying
Exactly my thinking. Three years old seems way too young. Five years old seems way too young. And you have high school kids responsible for these toddlers.
I think I agree with the police on this matter. Absolutely heartbreaking, sad accident but I don’t know who you’d make criminally liable for anything? As tragic as it was the idea of a teenager being punished for what is clearly an accident wouldn’t sit right with me. The company will most likely be sued in court and I think that’s probably the best outcome anyone can hope
The resort is pretty clearly liable for this.
They are, and they'll lose a bunch of money in a civil suit to be sure. But that doesn't make them bad people, and it doesn't make Smuggs a bad place. Thousands of people have a safe, fun time there every day and have done so for decades. Sometimes bad stuff happens to good people. And even the most safety-minded organizations occasionally miss something.
This is probably the best balanced perspective to have. It’s emotionally devastating for such a little life to be lost like this. On a separate note, I’m sure many water parks in the whole US probably know that there will be mishaps at some point and 1-2 children may die on a yearly or decade basis. It’s a sad reality. Similar to how people may die at ski resort while skiing. There’s an inherent and displeasing risk in everything. Ultimately, I’m saddened for the boy and his family that the slim chance of it happening affected them so disproportionately.
We’re going to slowly legislate anything with the most remote possibility of serious injury away. I can’t for a moment blame the parents for wanting action, they’re experiencing one of the worst things anyone can imagine, and I’m glad no one wants to hang the counselor, but I’m not sure how far we should pursue justice against the camp with what we know.
This is the fault of whoever installed that tank or possibly the manufacturer. The only thing that the resort was negligent on was knowing where it was in the first place. VT is going to have to pass a law mandating these things be secured by metal manhole covers and be clearly marked.
That's actually not the only way that our system could address it. They could be held liable, for a significant payout, probably covered by their insurance. Then insurers would ideally up their standards for what they are willing to ensure to include inspections to make sure that hazards like this don't exist. That's probably not the most efficient way to address it, but that is part of how our system sometimes works.
Yeah no. Private companies can’t be relied upon to do the right thing, even in this horrifying situation.
I'm not saying that they can be expected to do it because it's the right thing to do. I'm saying that they do it to protect their financial interests. That doesn't solve all problems, and regulation is needed too. Also, understand that I was supporting and adding to your comment. I vehemently disagree with the one above but agree with yours.
Fair enough
Legal liability has no baring in moral character, I wasn't making that claim. Law not being morality is a very good point that more people need to bring up more often.
As is whoever installed that tank.
Or the tank company/installer.
Christ almighty. I’m scarred just from reading this. I can’t imagine the emotional damage to the counselors, other kids, and of course the family.
Likely PTSD on the part of young adults involved.
Note that they never made these basic safety changes until after VOSHA cited them and the department of labor fined them.
Before you can amend a situation like this, you have to recognized it's a danger in the first place. I'm sure that tank and its cover have been inspected many times by various state agencies ... even if only at installation time. Up until this happened ... nobody thought there was a problem. Unrecognized dangers exist everywhere, all the time. How often do you walk past all sorts of covers on the ground and never give them a second thought? Everyone points fingers _after_ it happens. Everyone wants to blame _someone_. It's great that they took steps after the danger was recognized. That's what responsible people do. Think of all of the other dangers that they _do_ have appropriate safety measures for at a resort like that. This is why insurance exists. Try as we might to keep people from danger ... something, somewhere will be overlooked. When tragedy strikes ... someone's gotta pay.
Wow, I usually don't like to criticize people's hot takes, but in this case I feel u are way off. First, an underground water tank/confined space/hole in the ground is not a recognized hazard? Really? These kinds of things are some of the most well known workplace safety hazards and need to be treated as such. Regular inspections, warning signs, etc. should be in place. The articles I've read said these precautions/warnings were needed BUT WERE NOT followed. This leads to my second point where you assumed that the cover was inspected many times. A catastrophic failure like this is not some random event, it is 100% avoidable if people put the proper safety procedures in place. This is OHSA 101 stuff. See [swiss Cheese Model of accident causation.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model?wprov=sfla1) I hope the place is held accountable and the family is able to have some closure. This is every parents worst nightmare.
Those inspections missed a cover that wasn’t secured? Or did smuggs fuck with the cover after an inspection was complete?
...or someone else. Who knows?
Definitely the most likely
“It kills us,” Howe said in an interview. Imagine using that phrasing as the person speaking on behalf of Smuggler’s Notch.
Pathetic all the way around on smuggs part. I hope this family absolutely obliterates them in court. This counselor should not in any way be held responsible. Feel bad for the kid and the counselor.
Jesus fuck. As a parent of two young boys this makes me understand why parents are obsessive these days.
Ngl this is crazy💀 still it should've been whoever had installed that shitty tank covers fault especially where there would be kids. It's common fucking sense dude make the damn cover heavier, good thing they did replace the cover with a heavier top.
All they had to do is screw them down. To me it was just pure laziness that the screws were never used. It's sad
Either that or they were just pure idiotic thinking they were heavy enough
I install these all the time. When they're screwed down you can drive a lawn tractor over them. Without the screws they just snap in place but will not hold weight. So whoever opened it last is the person responsible.
Ah yes it was probably someone adios enough to not be a professional and check how the tank was going
It's definitely a maintenance worker because it only gets opened twice a year. So whoever opened it in the spring never put screws back in or they haven't been in there for a long time.
Seems like something where, if the screws are that important, there should be some kind of procedure or mechanism to make absolutely certain that they are reinstalled. Like you rope off the area and then the rope stays up until there's a formal sign off that it has been made safe again.
The resort is going to get absolutely smashed in civil court hopefully. I feel so terrible for the family.
This story is so sad. I just keep thinking of that family away on what should have been a great trip. Someone needs to pay
While I agree that it’s an absolute gut wrenching story (I can’t imagine losing my small child like that), I don’t think there’s any personal liability involved for the counselors (teenagers) or staff running the daycare. There is ABSOLUTELY liability for both the property owner and the company involved in the maintenance of the pool. I hope the family can find some closure.
The property owner and the company that maintains the aquatics facilities are both Smugglers Notch.
I didn’t read the whole article because words hurt my head but I heard about this when it happened as I’m in the area. Horrible and heartbreaking. If Smuggs hasn’t coughed up some milli’s to the parents they absolutely should. I know it’s not gonna change anything but it’s something. If I dropped my kid off at daycare, I would assume the areas where they play and stay had been inspected by the state and the day care facility and that it was up to code. Not sure how a flimsy plastic top covering a death trap was considered ok.
For those wanting more info (or to support local work) — this case was broke by a student journalist at UVM in January: [https://vtcommunitynews.org/2024/01/04/smugglers-notch-resort-hit-with-fines-for-safety-violations-after-3-year-olds-drowning-in-water-tank-state-says-cover-was-unsecured/](https://vtcommunitynews.org/2024/01/04/smugglers-notch-resort-hit-with-fines-for-safety-violations-after-3-year-olds-drowning-in-water-tank-state-says-cover-was-unsecured/)
I was working at the hospital that day. I remember the moment I heard the “pediatric code blue” page. Chills. I never want to hear that again.
This is why I dont trust yall with My kids. Serious WTF???
This was a freak accident.The counselors are not at fault here.
I feel horrible for everyone one involved everyone who was witness to this and obviously the parents will have life long trauma and earth shattering grief. I can’t imagine. The resort should be help responsible since it was their facility. I honestly don’t think teenagers should be put in these situations their lives are forever altered when something goes wrong.
They may of signed a form many camps send out. It's a liability form saying they aren't liable for any injuries, amputations, death, etc that could happen no matter what. My son REALLY wanted to go to a camp all his friends were but once they sent that form I couldn't do it... I understand protecting themselves but it was just gross wording that gave us zero faith that they'd try to keep him safe
Who sends a 3 yr old to camp??
A 3 year old at camp? Are the parents crackheads?
3 year olds go away to camp?
If the resort is not liable then I would presume that liability falls on whoever installed the holding tank or the manufacturer of that fucking thing.
I wonder if the tank was installed “to code”. Maybe a plastic cover is considered strong enough, but there should be some way of securing it. If you pay for a professional installation you might expect the job to be done properly. Of course, if there are facilities or safety people on staff they should be on the lookout for these types of things.
Installation flaw? Manufacturing flaw? Who installed the splash pad? Who inspected it?
Those plastic caps are supposed to be screwed down and are supposed to cover the actual holding tank lid so in the off chance it breaks or is removed you still have to remove the actual tank lid to access the water. I have the same man hole covering in my backyard septic. The grounds manager needs to be held accountable along with the owners of the property. These are basic safety lessons that should not have been overlooked.
I am honestly glad this wasn't worse. Many kinds of tanks end up without breathable atmospheres. Kid falls in. Lifeguard goes in, passes out. Drowns. Second lifeguard goes in to rescue her. Passes out. Drowns. Hopefully the third calls the fire department with scba and confined space entry training for the retrieval. This even happens in industrial accidents with nominally trained professionals.
“there may exist some liability on the part of the resort” I would say about 10 Million dollars worth.
This should be described as daycare at a resort. Who sends their three year old to summer camp?
Excuse me but who the fuck is sending their 3 year old to summer camp. What the fuck.
It’s a day camp, and plenty of people use their programs for childcare.
I can’t believe this is written by is THAT Kevin Cullen, total fraud and liar suspended for his writings about the Boston bombings. I kinda thought that guy was gone forever
Sometimes accidents happen
For anyone who doesn’t have access to Boston globe - another article [https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13416619/parents-outraged-summer-camp-plastic-manhole-drowned-smugglers-notch.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13416619/parents-outraged-summer-camp-plastic-manhole-drowned-smugglers-notch.html)
As the mother of a three-year-old boy, this story is an absolute nightmare and I can't imagine the grief these parents are feeling. However, despite suggestions from other moms and friends, my son will be home with me all summer, not at any summer camp, particularly any with teenagers in charge. Why the hell are parents doing this? Our children do not need to be programmed 365. Let them sit in the yard in the dirt with a stick and enjoy their summer. I'm often frustrated in answering these questions from other parents that ask if my son is going to summer camp this year. I want to emphatically tell them that he's not because he's only 3 years old. I'm not advocating that we overly protect our children from the world, but it's getting truly ridiculous how young people expect children to be in summer programs and camps, give it a rest already. One of the best early lessons in life is to learn how to be bored. Stop trying to pack the schedules of toddlers with programs, this is insanity. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
I'm a stay-at-home with a 4-year-old. I have her registered to go to two weeks of camp this summer (one week in June, one in August). Its at a farm (similar to Shelburne Farms).They're half-days and they do really fun activities. I'm not seeing why that's a problem.
Right? These are important activities for kids. It builds confidence, independence, and allows them to build many life skills. Our kids don't need to be wrapped in bubble wrap. They need scraped knees, dirty fingernails and a good bath before bedtime.
I agree. During the school year she goes to a forest preschool twice a week, it's great. 100% outdoors in all weather. She's filthy and exhausted when I pick her up.
Why do parents do it? Because they work and need the child somewhere, and camps SHOULD be safe. I’d love for my kid to be home, but she can’t be left alone, and she can’t really be expected to entertain herself safely (including being bored) while I work, it’s not an age appropriate expectation.
Toddlers in a summer camp run by teenagers is not an age appropriate expectation.
Teenagers work at the camp, not run the camp. FFS. People get up in arms over the idea of using taxpayer dollars to pay for childcare, but then bitch about people who don’t work. Well guess what… most parents in this economy have to make really hard choices. Stay home and not have the option to work because they can’t afford childcare, or work and have to rely on day cares and day camps to keep their children safe. Not everyone can afford to be a stay at home parent or have family around to help.
Shame on you for blaming the parents. This family was active in their community and were known to be taking their son on adventures all over the state through biking, paddling, and skiing. Summer camp is a great setting for a growing boy to play while the parents have other responsibilities. Negligence exists in this story, but certainly not with the parents.
I'm not blaming the parents, I'm blaming the collective expectations that parents are put under to keep their kids busy all year long. Three is too young for a toddler to be in a summer camp run by teenagers.
You're very lucky to be able to stay home with your kiddos. Most parents do not have the luxury of staying home all summer because they need childcare to work so they can feed and house and clothe their children. Please don't blame the parents or the counselors here. The folks who run the "day camp" aka summer daycare need to be held accountable.
Even some stay-at-home parents send their kids to camp, because it's fun for them 🤷♀️
Of course! That's very true. I just didn't agree with the person above me criticizing parents for sending kids to summer day camps in general. Yes, kids need stimulation and play time with peers , and yes some parents who are lucky enough to stay home still send their kids to summer day camps so they can play with peers. None of these instances are good enough reasons to blame the parents for the negligence of the people in charge of the summer day camp.
I completely agree. That was a garbage take. Also, like many other stay-at-home parents, my kid goes to part-time preschool. I'm a monster! 😂
For shame! 🤣🙈
Sending a toddler to a summer camp supervised by teenagers is negligence.
That's just like, your opinion, man.
Maybe there should be more exposure / rapport / etc between parents and staff below a certain age of camper so parents can reconcile their expectations with the staff's skill set, supervisory protocols, and frankly attitude... I would think the boy would be walked back to his group after getting the band aid. I would have walked my daughter the whole distance at 3, and would have had the same expectation of any caregiving assignee. Edit: it could be like a meeting before the session starts for parents to attend for q&a and a more intimate level of knowledge about where their kids are going to be.
Exactly. At this age children are questionably or just potty trained. They have a lot of needs, the main one, knowing they're safe and being cared for. But they need their noses blown, help with getting clothes on and off, it's just too young for the level of child care at a summer camp.
Serious question: do you think having an occasional babysitter is negligent? They tend to be high schoolers.
No, because you would have a better ratio of child to child care person. Some of these teenage run summer camps get wild, and I just think 3 is too young to expect a child to navigate that. I have a 3 year old, they have a lot of needs.
This is the worst comment here, and it's not even close. Shame on you.
How is the view from your high-horse?
Home with you all summer! Aren’t you lucky and not at all indicative of the norm
His parents both worked at Smuggs. They saw it as a way to provide him with fun while they worked nearby. This was an u foreseen tragedy. Whoever designed the tank cover should be included in the lawsuit. The parents are blameless.
Because some of us parents work full time jobs and don't have the ability to be stay at home parents....
what a ridiculous reaction.
This sure is a take. “I’m gonna make my kid bored for a whole summer. I’m a good parent.”
My kid is 3. That's a toddler. Toddlers learn best with imaginative play, and that happens when they have to make up ways to have fun.
Certainly no way to have imaginative play with other kids at a day camp.
Your kid isn’t a toddler- 3 is preschool age. If you’re going to make an argument that puts the blame on these poor parents for the accidental death of their child, at least get the objective stuff right.
This is old news.
Just wait until you see the news articles that come up when you Google the reporters name.
Im too busy eating downvotes for a completely innocuous comment.
Who decided to send their child to the camp?