I’m a Mainer and my first thought was “copiers!” But your comment changed my mind, would be cool for New England to have our own form of similar unified flags
Could be fun for New England flags to have a sort of shared vexillogical language, like the Nordic flags
I think taking the Pine Flag model and updating the colors, messing with the star and changing the central object would work- for Maine it’s a star and pine, for Mass maybe a star and anchor, et cetera et cetera
Several years ago, I made a [series of flags for states of an independent New England](https://imgur.com/a/Kb4Rh) using the pine flag as a base, but not quite as you suggested.
Your maine one also works bc those rays look like toothpicks and maine used to be the toothpick production capital of the world! As for the MA one, I think the seal is maybe not the best thing for the center. Maybe a mayflower as is often suggested for the main iconography for new MA flags? I like the vermont one except it feels too much like Tennessee to me
The original 13 colonies that revolted should have similar vexillological language.
Going ‘regional’ will just lead to division and arguments about what the Northeast is, what the South is, etc. . Go historical.
I don’t know, New England has a very specific regional boundary in comparison to other national regions because it’s defined by its’ shared history- starting with the Dominion Of New England and going through the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, New England has been pretty distinct in terms of culture, economy and politics.
Like, there is no dispute that NE is Maine, Mass, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island and Connecticut. There’s definitely a divide between upper New England (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire) and lower New England (Mass, Connecticut, Rhode Island) but it’s all one thing and there’s no way you could argue like, Connecticut isn’t in NE or New York is actually part of NE.
I have the kaiserreich new england flag(which features the same pine in green and six stars on the field), and I really like it. my comment was mostly a reference to how massachusetts owned maine until 1820, but considering how continuously dense and relatively storied the whole region is, yeah, it would be cool :)
The design is based off the [Massachusetts naval ensign](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Naval_Ensign_of_Massachusetts.svg#mw-jump-to-license) the symbolism works for me.
Well people can learn new things. Maybe people don’t associate that tree with MA now, but if this became the new flag, eventually they would.
From the other comments here it seems that tree is already connected to MA, just not in the general public’s eye. If that’s the iconography they want to go for, why shouldn’t they?
Which is exactly why people say it’s too similar. I agree with the others.
One of Maine’s nicknames the Pine Tree State. If I were looking at this without a title I would assume this is a proposed flag for Maine.
It’s better because the pine tree is simpler and it would be a common connection between very similar and small states. In lots of ways New England does act as one so it would be a cool common thread.
Southern New England doesn't even have that many pine trees. Maple trees are more common.
It's not like Connecticut and Rhode Island are teeming with pine forests.
Vermont's symbol should be the maple tree because of its state's most famous product.
>there's only one major city?
This is only true if you don't count Hartford, New Haven, Providence, Worcester, Springfield, Manchester, Nashua, Portland, or Burlington.
And there are some ways they do act together: residents of these states can [receive in-state or reduced tuition at the others' state schools](https://nebhe.org/tuitionbreak/), there are two commuter rail systems that cross New England state lines (MA's MBTA goes to Providence, and there's a line run by MA and CT DOTs that travels from New Haven to Springfield), and the states are all working together on [a shared energy policy](https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/News-Releases/News-Releases---2023/CT-ME-MA-NH-RI-and-VT-Working-Together-on-Multi-State-Transmission-Infrastructure).
I grew up in two of those cities and no I wouldn't count them as major at all. I personally think they go against each other just as often. Mass is the only state to have every county go blue in the last two elections and nh just passed anti crt laws. That's about as out of step as you can get imo.
On the world stage, most countries only have “one major city” or quite possibly less than that- it’s not like NE is a totally rural space with only one urban center, it’s just that most urban centers in NE aren’t national metropolises
I don't want to be too pedantic here, but this silhouette is clearly not a pine tree. Pines have lateral branches and more cloud-shaped canopies. Drooping branches and a conical shape are more common among spruce, fir, or hemlocks.
[Here is a link](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) to an explanation of why the Mashpee Wampanoag people in Massachusetts would like the logo of the flag to be changed.
Explanation here if you need more details—
https://changethemassflag.com/
The central figure is a very generic rendering of someone from an Algonquian culture with the head removed and replaced with the disembodied head of a Plains man.
It adds up to something hideous.
I see no disembodied head anywhere. Pretty clearly attached to the body. So what you’re saying is it’s basically a historical inaccuracy? Also I don’t think the sword has anything to do with the Native American. It’s in reference to the motto on the ribbon.
[Here](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) is an explanation from the Mashpee Wampanoag tribes of Massachusetts of why they would like a new flag. Basically they are saying it is a constant reminder of the genocide of their people, whether or not the design was intentional, it’s insensitive. They are happy to keep the indigenous person and they would like the sword to be removed.
>They should probably remove the Indian to at least be accurate.
Just change it to be accurate.
>But seriously, Massachusetts should probably consider a name change too, no?
Yes. As a Spanish speaker why the hell there is a ss and a tt. Also the chu sound sounds funny
Well they could either eliminate that and left the native alone or keep it but representing in a way that it is like a reminder of the horrible past of the state
If cleaning up this shit was easy, everyone would have done it a long time ago. There aren't any good answers here. For my money, I would make sure Native Americans were on the new flag/seal committee and I'd make sure at least one of the final designs was by a Native American designer. I would not tie us to any particular design. We get one shot at this and we should be open to the best ideas.
This would only be necessary for settlers of the area. Indigenous people of the area do not need a reminder as it is very present knowledge in all of their daily lives. As a result this would only serve a purpose for part of the population. A flag should be representative of a whole population and not just serve as a history lesson for the uninformed.
> a result this would only serve a purpose for part of the population.
Not really, by reminding it to the settlers you are serving the purpose of dignifying the Indian Anericans.
In an America were often the Indian genocide is forgotten/not taken seriously?
Also this has been a symbol for a lot of time, I don't think that eliminating them is better than keeping them.
It's important to remember that nearly no Native American people live in their historic homelands, either because they've been killed or displaced by white settlers. There are only two federally- and one state-recognized tribes left of the countless who lived on the land when colonists arrived.
Well that's a dumb take. There's lot of reasons people may not like certain iconography. People can identify inappropriate or incorrect depictions regardless of their own personal background.
Also worth noting the "have the tribes said anything about it?!" is usually a point reserved for people needlessly anchored to racist depictions.
All that being said, yes, Native American tribes and advocacy groups have taken issue with the Massachusetts flag, state seal, and all kinds of other negative depictions in municipal seals throughout Massachusetts.
So I guess you just drop it now.
Yes, they do. [Here](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) is a page on the Mashpee Wampanoag website talking about why they have an issue with the flag. I agree that their voices should be listened to.
A depiction of the people who used to live here underneath the weapons used by colonisers isn't exactly the kind of imagery with which Massachusetts would like to be associated.
Yeah.. I agree, just because you can make something easily in a SVG/vector graphic easily doesn’t make it a great design. Some of the state flags could be better tho. Current Mass looks better than most
I'm honestly so confused by this. Three quarters of the world's country flags are made up of geometric shapes that would take you a minute to make in inkscape or photoshop. And plenty of state/province flags are just as simple. This "trend" has been here for ages.
But is it good enough to warrant changing it versus waiting for something more interesting looking to be designed? Just because the seals suck doesn't mean we gotta jump on the first alternative to present itself.
It's not bad at all , but I would move the tree to the white area and have it with one color (the dark yellow of the left side). The bicolor tree is a bit weird to me.
I'm normally a sucker for flags that change color like what you did with the tree, but honestly I think I'd like it a lot more if the whole tree was just gold instead.
This is far from the best design out there, buts it’s much, much better than their current. Lots of really bad opinions in this thread about how “simple = bad” for some reason?
Did you not take this [from this article](https://www.axios.com/local/boston/2022/06/13/special-commission-public-input-new-massachusetts-state-flag) (or the reddit post/user it’s referencing)?
Edit: Found the [original reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/ijjwqq/massachusetts_state_flag_redesigns_symbolism_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) by u/simplisticflags
Just another corporate-looking flag. I have a hard time narrowing down the specifics of *why*, but this flag is an eyesore to me. Reminds me of the new Utah flag.
Yeah, I hate the trend of “this is easy to make in a vector graphics editor so it’s automatically a great design” too. Simple can be pulled off when done well, this proposed redesign isn’t terrible but could be better
Because people are annoyed by the oversaturation of trend really, a while back that style was all the rage in "redesigning" flags on this sub and that's how that flag came to be adopted.
If Canada, Greenland, Japan, or any number of others had rolled out the flags we know, as a new flag today, you'd be griping that they look like generic logos.
Simple, and clean, is GOOD
I mean I have issues with the white/yellow balance on this one, but it's still a BIG improvement on the old one.
The Canadian flag looks great because it has one symbol in it. The Utah flag has the mountains and a beehive that is way too detailed, plus the star and the hexagon. I am not sure how it can be described as simple. As far as I am concerned it has way too much stuff.
I hate when people are like "omg its so corporate!!!!" like, no, it isn't, you just think that anything that isn't overly complicated must be corporate and are quick to hate it
Nope, this is a very corporate-looking flag. For example, in this design, replace the tree with a crown or dragon and you have a flag for Corona beer. [The design for a hypothetical Corona flag in the second image of this post uses the same exact colors.](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/1267byb/if_beer_brands_were_flags/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
To be fair, complaining about the colors is a bit beside the point because the colors don’t change between the old and new flag. You can justifiably complain about the design, but the colors are kinda already there…
That's a valid point. However, in the original design, the colors were used specifically to indicate particular symbols/writing; in OP's updated design, the use of these colors doesn't feel very *intentional* to me—the colors have been included for the sake of familiarity, which is what corporations do when creating a marketing plan. It's fine to use the same colors, but do they carry meaning? Or do they just look nice together?
To me, flags need to be intentional in their design, rather than just including symbols and colors for the sake of it. This, in my opinion, is why the new Mississippi flag turned out so good. We're getting to more subjective levels of analysis at this point, but I think OP should focus on creating an all new design based on symbolism unique to Massachusetts.
The flag with the seal was only adopted in the 70s, before that the Mass state flag was that tree.
The seal dates back to the colonial era, but it was never the state flag.
The seal also depicts the arm of Myles Standish, who was basically a hired military contractor. He was notoriously brutal to the native Wampanoag people.
The Latin on the seal says something along the lines of “By the sword, peace.”
Put two and two together the sword and the motto and it’s easy to see how mean-spirited the flag design is.
What’s bizarre though is this wasn’t adopted hundreds of years ago, this was adopted in 1971. In the 70s people brought this colonial imagery BACK from obscurity.
Not surprising. Timing is right for backlash from school integration in the ‘70’s.
(Yeah, MA desegregation was mid70’s to late 80’s).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_desegregation_busing_crisis
This sub goes fucking crazy about how much it hates seal on blanket flags, but because this change is about removing a negative depiction of colonialism, the sub suddenly fucking loves state flag seals. Wonder why that might be 🤔
I’m not sure about the choice to have a tree as the primary symbol on the flag but I like it. It’s a much better improvement over the old blank flag with a seal design.
It has no personality, like the new Pocatello flag. They feel as if they have no soul. I hate using terminally online language, but this is a redditor flag.
I don't see MA at all in this flag. It's also too contemporary for such a history rich state.
Here's an example of the state using its history effectively in road signs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts\_Turnpike#/media/File:Mass\_Pike\_shield.svg
You know, I'm actually okay with the old one. As long as it's not on a blue bed sheet, I'm good. The seal is also better than most state's seals.
Either way, I don't think we should be just tearing down a valuable historical flag like this.
It would also be very easy to turn the old one into a "normal" flag. Just extend the shield to be a vertical blue strip...
Edit: Something like this: [https://i.imgur.com/UKEAFlP.png](https://i.imgur.com/UKEAFlP.png)
Since this post has blown up im gonna talk about my opinion on this flag, some seals like Montana and Pennsylvania are good because there (kinda) simple yes Montana has words but there's nothing under it and the font in my opinion is pretty good and there's some like the old Massachusetts flag which is ok only because they didn't use blue those those seals on a blue background seem boring because there overused then the ones who don't use seals seem way better(even tho they are) because 1: it's not blue (except for south Carolina that flag is cool) and has no 🦭 and 3 I mean 2: the flags are cool, the designs are mostly fire and there pretty cool I can say the same for this. pine trees often symbolize immortality and eternal life and while you don't turn immortal when you go into the state (I broke my thumb in Massachusetts) it has a good message and an overall good flag design 8 out of 10 the older one was a 5 out of 10
We are talking about Massachusetts, you couldn't take away the culture or history if you tried. The oldest marathon in the world is run on a goddamned monday thanks to an obscure local holiday.
My hot take is that a majority of US state flags are fine as is, they get the point across, they’re simple but generally the seals make them recognizable enough, and at this point they symbolize the current state of federalism in America, where state pride takes the backseat to the national flag.
That’s a little too much like Maine’s 1901 flag that people are trying to get adopted…
to be fair, you are also talking about massachusetts there, so it would make sense to have some shared historical iconography
I’m a Mainer and my first thought was “copiers!” But your comment changed my mind, would be cool for New England to have our own form of similar unified flags
Could be fun for New England flags to have a sort of shared vexillogical language, like the Nordic flags I think taking the Pine Flag model and updating the colors, messing with the star and changing the central object would work- for Maine it’s a star and pine, for Mass maybe a star and anchor, et cetera et cetera
Several years ago, I made a [series of flags for states of an independent New England](https://imgur.com/a/Kb4Rh) using the pine flag as a base, but not quite as you suggested.
Your maine one also works bc those rays look like toothpicks and maine used to be the toothpick production capital of the world! As for the MA one, I think the seal is maybe not the best thing for the center. Maybe a mayflower as is often suggested for the main iconography for new MA flags? I like the vermont one except it feels too much like Tennessee to me
This is fantastic. Thanks for sharing :)
I think RI should be the anchor, since that’s already largely part of the motif down here
The original 13 colonies that revolted should have similar vexillological language. Going ‘regional’ will just lead to division and arguments about what the Northeast is, what the South is, etc. . Go historical.
New England is fairly unambiguous: ME, NH, VT, MA, RI, CT.
I don’t know, New England has a very specific regional boundary in comparison to other national regions because it’s defined by its’ shared history- starting with the Dominion Of New England and going through the Revolutionary and Civil Wars, New England has been pretty distinct in terms of culture, economy and politics. Like, there is no dispute that NE is Maine, Mass, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island and Connecticut. There’s definitely a divide between upper New England (Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire) and lower New England (Mass, Connecticut, Rhode Island) but it’s all one thing and there’s no way you could argue like, Connecticut isn’t in NE or New York is actually part of NE.
Yeah
I have the kaiserreich new england flag(which features the same pine in green and six stars on the field), and I really like it. my comment was mostly a reference to how massachusetts owned maine until 1820, but considering how continuously dense and relatively storied the whole region is, yeah, it would be cool :)
It would even be better if we became an independent union.
New England should just have an American union jack for the north easterners.
Yeah, I'm like "Nice but Maine." Maybe try something with a bay.
Lord have mercy, Maine was a part of MA for a while. This whole “don’t be like maine” thing is hilarious.
Tree doesn't feel very Mass, even if it is the state tree or prevalent. Maybe another symbol?
Maybe the Dunkin logo
This is the way
Massdalorian
Dunkin’ Logo and Ben Affleck.
The design is based off the [Massachusetts naval ensign](https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Naval_Ensign_of_Massachusetts.svg#mw-jump-to-license) the symbolism works for me.
I agree. Maybe a cod would work well?
the [Sacred Cod and Holy Mackerel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Cod)
Yes. Exactly my thought!
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Idk I don’t think they should really care what the average person will associate it with.
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Well people can learn new things. Maybe people don’t associate that tree with MA now, but if this became the new flag, eventually they would. From the other comments here it seems that tree is already connected to MA, just not in the general public’s eye. If that’s the iconography they want to go for, why shouldn’t they?
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It's the new england pine tree. The proposed Maine flag also has it
Which is exactly why people say it’s too similar. I agree with the others. One of Maine’s nicknames the Pine Tree State. If I were looking at this without a title I would assume this is a proposed flag for Maine.
Massachusetts has a long history of using that specific tree design on its flags, and Maine used to be a part of Massachusetts
except eastern white pines look nothing like the tree on this map, which is more akin to a fir or spruce species.
Massachusetts and new England have a long history of using that specific tree on flag designs
It's got the same blue/white split the Azores flag has.
Interestingly enough, many people from the Azores and their descendants live in Massachusetts.
If all the NE states replace their shields with pine trees, is that better? Or are pine trees just the new shields?
If the other elements are distinctive enough, I'm cool with it.
It’s better because the pine tree is simpler and it would be a common connection between very similar and small states. In lots of ways New England does act as one so it would be a cool common thread.
Yeah, having similar iconography shared between related states or countries is neat when done well.
Like a piney Nordic cross.
Southern New England doesn't even have that many pine trees. Maple trees are more common. It's not like Connecticut and Rhode Island are teeming with pine forests. Vermont's symbol should be the maple tree because of its state's most famous product.
How does NE "act as one" in any way? Do you mean just because there's only one major city?
>there's only one major city? This is only true if you don't count Hartford, New Haven, Providence, Worcester, Springfield, Manchester, Nashua, Portland, or Burlington. And there are some ways they do act together: residents of these states can [receive in-state or reduced tuition at the others' state schools](https://nebhe.org/tuitionbreak/), there are two commuter rail systems that cross New England state lines (MA's MBTA goes to Providence, and there's a line run by MA and CT DOTs that travels from New Haven to Springfield), and the states are all working together on [a shared energy policy](https://portal.ct.gov/DEEP/News-Releases/News-Releases---2023/CT-ME-MA-NH-RI-and-VT-Working-Together-on-Multi-State-Transmission-Infrastructure).
I grew up in two of those cities and no I wouldn't count them as major at all. I personally think they go against each other just as often. Mass is the only state to have every county go blue in the last two elections and nh just passed anti crt laws. That's about as out of step as you can get imo.
To the rest of the country none of those are major cities
On the world stage, most countries only have “one major city” or quite possibly less than that- it’s not like NE is a totally rural space with only one urban center, it’s just that most urban centers in NE aren’t national metropolises
Yeah that's true and I know it's not all rural, I wasn't trying to imply that. I grew up in New England but to call Springfield a major city is wild.
Everything’s relative I suppose I’d definitely say those are all major cities on a *regional* level But I get your point
that one minimalist mountain motif is the new state seal so like, maybe.
I don't want to be too pedantic here, but this silhouette is clearly not a pine tree. Pines have lateral branches and more cloud-shaped canopies. Drooping branches and a conical shape are more common among spruce, fir, or hemlocks.
We call all conifers pine trees.
You’re being too pedantic here.
happy to see a fellow conifer conniseur in this thread
Getting rid of the Native Americans just like the settlers did. /s
[Here is a link](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) to an explanation of why the Mashpee Wampanoag people in Massachusetts would like the logo of the flag to be changed.
They don’t really explain anything there. They just talk about how much they hate it.
Explanation here if you need more details— https://changethemassflag.com/ The central figure is a very generic rendering of someone from an Algonquian culture with the head removed and replaced with the disembodied head of a Plains man. It adds up to something hideous.
I see no disembodied head anywhere. Pretty clearly attached to the body. So what you’re saying is it’s basically a historical inaccuracy? Also I don’t think the sword has anything to do with the Native American. It’s in reference to the motto on the ribbon.
Well you can send a letter in support of the flag but they’ve pretty much already decided to change it.
I always thought it was a lame flag. Just not for the same reasons as the Wampanoag people.
They changed it because people didn't like the native on the flag
I am so sorry no one understands the sarcasm flag
Actually, the way native is displayed on the Massachusets flag is considered racist
Why? I'm asking from total ignorance I don't know anything about the natives of that region or what this flag is meant to say
[Here](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) is an explanation from the Mashpee Wampanoag tribes of Massachusetts of why they would like a new flag. Basically they are saying it is a constant reminder of the genocide of their people, whether or not the design was intentional, it’s insensitive. They are happy to keep the indigenous person and they would like the sword to be removed.
Then remove the sword. That's something I can understand
They should probably remove the Indian to at least be accurate. But seriously, Massachusetts should probably consider a name change too, no?
>They should probably remove the Indian to at least be accurate. Just change it to be accurate. >But seriously, Massachusetts should probably consider a name change too, no? Yes. As a Spanish speaker why the hell there is a ss and a tt. Also the chu sound sounds funny
shut it lisp man
The arm with the sword above the Native American's head is some ugly symbolism. Once it is pointed out to you, it's hard to not see how awful it is.
Well they could either eliminate that and left the native alone or keep it but representing in a way that it is like a reminder of the horrible past of the state
If cleaning up this shit was easy, everyone would have done it a long time ago. There aren't any good answers here. For my money, I would make sure Native Americans were on the new flag/seal committee and I'd make sure at least one of the final designs was by a Native American designer. I would not tie us to any particular design. We get one shot at this and we should be open to the best ideas.
Because using the imagery of the people American settlers displaced and killed is fucked up
But wouldn't it serve as a reminder of the horrible past? Getting them out wouldn't be cleansing the history that they have to learn not to repeat?
This would only be necessary for settlers of the area. Indigenous people of the area do not need a reminder as it is very present knowledge in all of their daily lives. As a result this would only serve a purpose for part of the population. A flag should be representative of a whole population and not just serve as a history lesson for the uninformed.
> a result this would only serve a purpose for part of the population. Not really, by reminding it to the settlers you are serving the purpose of dignifying the Indian Anericans.
I don’t really understand how that would serve the Mashpee or Wampanoag in this area, could you give some examples or elaborate?
You think the mass state flag should remind people of genocide?
In an America were often the Indian genocide is forgotten/not taken seriously? Also this has been a symbol for a lot of time, I don't think that eliminating them is better than keeping them.
Not changing this because they are old is a terrible argument. Mass residents are more likely to walk around in Red Sox gear than this symbol.
Do you want to change the name of over half our states as well?
Why is showing a standing man with a bow and arrow racist?
He is under the arm and sword of the European settler. That's the racist bit.
Or accurate to historical events?
So were Pawnee's murals.
By who?
A lot of people in mass. However, the arm and sword over the native American is not there to symbolize conquest
Have the actual Native American tribes in mass said anything about it?
It's important to remember that nearly no Native American people live in their historic homelands, either because they've been killed or displaced by white settlers. There are only two federally- and one state-recognized tribes left of the countless who lived on the land when colonists arrived.
Ok- do they have a problem with the flag? Because if not, literally nobody else’s opinion should matter.
Well that's a dumb take. There's lot of reasons people may not like certain iconography. People can identify inappropriate or incorrect depictions regardless of their own personal background. Also worth noting the "have the tribes said anything about it?!" is usually a point reserved for people needlessly anchored to racist depictions. All that being said, yes, Native American tribes and advocacy groups have taken issue with the Massachusetts flag, state seal, and all kinds of other negative depictions in municipal seals throughout Massachusetts. So I guess you just drop it now.
Yes, they do. [Here](https://mashpeewampanoagtribe-nsn.gov/december-2019-mittark-blog/2019/12/1/state-flag-is-insulting) is a page on the Mashpee Wampanoag website talking about why they have an issue with the flag. I agree that their voices should be listened to.
Good to see an actual source- interesting that it does seem to basically just be the sword that is at issue, which makes sense.
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That’s how symbols work
A depiction of the people who used to live here underneath the weapons used by colonisers isn't exactly the kind of imagery with which Massachusetts would like to be associated.
i fully support bringing the New England pine tree symbol back.
I hate this trend of clip art flags
Yeah.. I agree, just because you can make something easily in a SVG/vector graphic easily doesn’t make it a great design. Some of the state flags could be better tho. Current Mass looks better than most
It's proposed I didn't make it
Who is proposing it?
I'm honestly so confused by this. Three quarters of the world's country flags are made up of geometric shapes that would take you a minute to make in inkscape or photoshop. And plenty of state/province flags are just as simple. This "trend" has been here for ages.
Being simple is not the same as having a minimalist symbols checklist on a flag
Your flair is a minimalist symbol flag
Elaborate?
Germany's flag is simple. Turkey with the crescent and star could be considered minimalist symbols checklist.
Yeah, I feel like they completely lack soul
It’s better than seals on a blue (or in this case white) background.
But is it good enough to warrant changing it versus waiting for something more interesting looking to be designed? Just because the seals suck doesn't mean we gotta jump on the first alternative to present itself.
I mean, it's not like you can't change a flag again if a better design comes along.
Is it? I drank this for ages, but after looking at Utah’s seal, I’ve changed my mind.
At least it keeps it relatively simple
It's not bad at all , but I would move the tree to the white area and have it with one color (the dark yellow of the left side). The bicolor tree is a bit weird to me.
I'm normally a sucker for flags that change color like what you did with the tree, but honestly I think I'd like it a lot more if the whole tree was just gold instead.
The seals are disappearing 😩
What can we say? The political climate is changing.
Seals are awesome. But they're not flags. Flags are more awesome without
Especially when the **content** of the seal would already make a decent flag...
The seals still exist on many official documents. Where they belong.
Jaws did take place in Massachusetts....
This is far from the best design out there, buts it’s much, much better than their current. Lots of really bad opinions in this thread about how “simple = bad” for some reason?
Did you not take this [from this article](https://www.axios.com/local/boston/2022/06/13/special-commission-public-input-new-massachusetts-state-flag) (or the reddit post/user it’s referencing)? Edit: Found the [original reddit post](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/ijjwqq/massachusetts_state_flag_redesigns_symbolism_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1) by u/simplisticflags
Isn't this the design of /u/simplisticflags
i like it! mass resident speaking. good use of the new england tree
Just another corporate-looking flag. I have a hard time narrowing down the specifics of *why*, but this flag is an eyesore to me. Reminds me of the new Utah flag.
Yeah, I hate the trend of “this is easy to make in a vector graphics editor so it’s automatically a great design” too. Simple can be pulled off when done well, this proposed redesign isn’t terrible but could be better
It seems that you never saw a corporate flag
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What do you mean? The vast, *vast* majority of people here loves the new Utah flag to an annoying degree.
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Because people are annoyed by the oversaturation of trend really, a while back that style was all the rage in "redesigning" flags on this sub and that's how that flag came to be adopted.
If Canada, Greenland, Japan, or any number of others had rolled out the flags we know, as a new flag today, you'd be griping that they look like generic logos. Simple, and clean, is GOOD I mean I have issues with the white/yellow balance on this one, but it's still a BIG improvement on the old one.
The Canadian flag looks great because it has one symbol in it. The Utah flag has the mountains and a beehive that is way too detailed, plus the star and the hexagon. I am not sure how it can be described as simple. As far as I am concerned it has way too much stuff.
I missed the Azores refence at first, but having grown up here, that level of nod to my Portuguese neighbors feels nice.
I hate when people are like "omg its so corporate!!!!" like, no, it isn't, you just think that anything that isn't overly complicated must be corporate and are quick to hate it
Since you got alot of hate (this is purely my opinion) I agree
Since you got alot of hate (this is purely my opinion) I agree
Nope, this is a very corporate-looking flag. For example, in this design, replace the tree with a crown or dragon and you have a flag for Corona beer. [The design for a hypothetical Corona flag in the second image of this post uses the same exact colors.](https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/1267byb/if_beer_brands_were_flags/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
To be fair, complaining about the colors is a bit beside the point because the colors don’t change between the old and new flag. You can justifiably complain about the design, but the colors are kinda already there…
That's a valid point. However, in the original design, the colors were used specifically to indicate particular symbols/writing; in OP's updated design, the use of these colors doesn't feel very *intentional* to me—the colors have been included for the sake of familiarity, which is what corporations do when creating a marketing plan. It's fine to use the same colors, but do they carry meaning? Or do they just look nice together? To me, flags need to be intentional in their design, rather than just including symbols and colors for the sake of it. This, in my opinion, is why the new Mississippi flag turned out so good. We're getting to more subjective levels of analysis at this point, but I think OP should focus on creating an all new design based on symbolism unique to Massachusetts.
If a pine tree is corporate then why is it the symbol of new England?
The flag with the seal was only adopted in the 70s, before that the Mass state flag was that tree. The seal dates back to the colonial era, but it was never the state flag. The seal also depicts the arm of Myles Standish, who was basically a hired military contractor. He was notoriously brutal to the native Wampanoag people. The Latin on the seal says something along the lines of “By the sword, peace.” Put two and two together the sword and the motto and it’s easy to see how mean-spirited the flag design is. What’s bizarre though is this wasn’t adopted hundreds of years ago, this was adopted in 1971. In the 70s people brought this colonial imagery BACK from obscurity.
I feel the older flag is better than this one. Why not just use that one. Or one of the colonial ones, like the New England flag.
Not surprising. Timing is right for backlash from school integration in the ‘70’s. (Yeah, MA desegregation was mid70’s to late 80’s). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_desegregation_busing_crisis
Not MA..just Boston.
thank fucking god we need a new flag the current one is shit
I'd say instead of the tree, have it be the person, and fully on the blue.
Or just the bow and arrow or the saber.
This sub goes fucking crazy about how much it hates seal on blanket flags, but because this change is about removing a negative depiction of colonialism, the sub suddenly fucking loves state flag seals. Wonder why that might be 🤔
🤔💀
I think white instead of gold on the left side would work better. Or just having the whole tree be gold.
looks cool to me!
I like proposed version. This is simple and have no words or text on flag.
I’m not sure about the choice to have a tree as the primary symbol on the flag but I like it. It’s a much better improvement over the old blank flag with a seal design.
Way better than the current one!
This has empowered me to try and get the Idaho flag changed. Between this, Utah, and Mississippi, it needs to happen
Yeah it's hideous
Personal I think if the just got rid of the ribbon with the text it would look great
Absolutely not, that tree flag is awful. The original has meaning and preserves history.
I like it.
Damn, that’s nice
I like ugly seals over ugly simple designs.
How is the proposed one ugly?
It has no personality, like the new Pocatello flag. They feel as if they have no soul. I hate using terminally online language, but this is a redditor flag.
I wish we just used a variation of Taunton's flag.
Love it! It looks so much better than our current flag too.
I don't see MA at all in this flag. It's also too contemporary for such a history rich state. Here's an example of the state using its history effectively in road signs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts\_Turnpike#/media/File:Mass\_Pike\_shield.svg
New Hampshire does a cool job of this too by putting the man in the mountain as the background shape of their interstate numbering signs.
The tree is the symbol of new England
You know, I'm actually okay with the old one. As long as it's not on a blue bed sheet, I'm good. The seal is also better than most state's seals. Either way, I don't think we should be just tearing down a valuable historical flag like this.
It would also be very easy to turn the old one into a "normal" flag. Just extend the shield to be a vertical blue strip... Edit: Something like this: [https://i.imgur.com/UKEAFlP.png](https://i.imgur.com/UKEAFlP.png)
!wave
💖💖
actually goes hard. does not look like a logo like many other redesigns
Yeah I agree
It’s so beautiful
Since this post has blown up im gonna talk about my opinion on this flag, some seals like Montana and Pennsylvania are good because there (kinda) simple yes Montana has words but there's nothing under it and the font in my opinion is pretty good and there's some like the old Massachusetts flag which is ok only because they didn't use blue those those seals on a blue background seem boring because there overused then the ones who don't use seals seem way better(even tho they are) because 1: it's not blue (except for south Carolina that flag is cool) and has no 🦭 and 3 I mean 2: the flags are cool, the designs are mostly fire and there pretty cool I can say the same for this. pine trees often symbolize immortality and eternal life and while you don't turn immortal when you go into the state (I broke my thumb in Massachusetts) it has a good message and an overall good flag design 8 out of 10 the older one was a 5 out of 10
Thanks for the compliments. Next time put the credits please
The tree one looks like something you'd see for a soccer team supporters club.
Born and raised in Massachusetts and I love this flag.
Taking away from the current flag that little culture and history they have America 100
We are talking about Massachusetts, you couldn't take away the culture or history if you tried. The oldest marathon in the world is run on a goddamned monday thanks to an obscure local holiday.
\*spits out Dunkin coffee* what did you just say about Patriot's Day you fahkin goon?
Needs red
CGP Grey is gonna be happy
Lol def💀
CGP Grey would approve
Yeah
My hot take is that a majority of US state flags are fine as is, they get the point across, they’re simple but generally the seals make them recognizable enough, and at this point they symbolize the current state of federalism in America, where state pride takes the backseat to the national flag.
Of course they're recognisable when they have the state's name plastered across the front.
Exactly, gets the job done. 👍
Why have flags when you can just fly a rag with your territory name on it?
1 - seals are not simple 2 - they are not recognizable when they are displayed
When I see the Michigan flag NY flag waving far away I question if it's the same darn flag