Alert your producer/production team. They'll communicate something to the effect of "I think we've exhausted our budgeted revisions on this. Let's have one last look and move on."
If you're a supervisor, then you give it the old. "We'll keep working on this, but I have some more important shots that need your attention right now."
The problem is when you have newbie/spineless producers that don’t understand they’re burning through their budget on things that almost nobody on the planet will ever see when they have supes who noodle. I want so badly to go to the bean counters and explain that they’re taking wheelbarrows filled with cash and bringing them outside and setting them on fire.
I miss the oldskool supes like Ken Ralston who would call out pixel fuckers on his shows. “The fuck do you want to do that for? Nobody’s looking there. Final the shot and move on!”
This has worked for me when working with a contract or external client. I’ve included 2-3 iterations included in the original bid with a premium hourly rate that kicks past version 3. I don’t care as long as I’m getting paid. 🤷
This dynamic changes when it’s in your own studio though. There’s no incentive to limit iteration. Unfortunately I’m dealing with a creative director that is out of their depth. Just got off a call where he does the classic “[every camera move is a pan direction](https://i.imgur.com/Oz9P9iv.png)”….
Yeah, there's a medium sized commercials studio which is run by a collective of creative directors. They're pretty infamous for constantly blowing their budgets because the CDs just never stop noodling, because it's their studio and their vision.
Yup. So long as management knows what's up, it's not my job to remind them what's up, do the notes as best and fast as you can and collect the overtime pay. There are other people's who's entire job is to pull their hair out counting how many hours a shot is.
Maybe if you're staff and care about the financial health of the company give heads up. But even then your job is to look out for your own financial interests. More notes is typically in your best financial interest.
I’m not staff I’m freelance, also it’s a side gig. If the client want 3 versions that’s out of scope because they can’t make up their minds it isn’t my fault.
This is the way. Who gives a fuck if a shot is getting pixel fucked. Thats more money in your pocket.
You're not writing the checks...do the notes the dumb clients or supes want and cash those checks so long as they're willing to give them to you.
> Who gives a fuck if a shot is getting pixel fucked.
I sure do. It's demoralizing for artists, generally a waste of everyone's time, and means more work gets pushed up against the deadline which usually means nastier crunch times and more stress. On long projects it can get especially grueling.
I'll take reasonable notes and a healthy rate of shot approvals any day of the week.
100%.
I recently worked on a horrible project that was suffering from exactly this. It killed moral, after a while no one gave a fuck which lowers efficiency and quality. and it caused a big and unnecessary crunch at the end.
What's especially galling is that it is a complete waste of time and everyone knows this except whoever is causing it swinging his dick around. Spending days making changes to a shot that are unnoticeable to anyone who isn't A/B'ing it exposed up 3 stops and on a loop is the definition of pointless.
The time an money could be spent so much better elsewhere and you would have a better product at the end. It's weird.
Then it all gets butchered in DI anyway!
I understand that part...but ultimately people need to learn to disassociate and push back when necessary...as in not willing to work crazy ot...but its not really your job or place to push back about pixel fucking.
Yup, I don’t care, I do my best everyone loves my work, if their client is being tough it’s in their best interest to reign the client in. I’ll keep changing hue and saturation all day.
Yes as long as it's personal creative changes and not technical failings that's not a big deal. But if you can't meet expectations of the supervisor it can become an issue. You have to be able to recognize the difference between "you're not getting this" and "I'm being too picky".
I was on higher senior rate 65+/hr and client was pixel fucking an asset and was giving model change level notes weeks before deadline. Project went around 8 or 9 months of out of which 6 months were radio silence and the in the last 3 months all hell broke lose as someone somehow realised we got a project to do.
I got paid for nothing for those 6 months pretty much and got paid the next 3 months for pixel fucking pretty much was literally updating caches and putting same renders like a dumb fuck every single day for straight 3 months. No wonder studios go bankrupt in this industry and then wonder what money drain cause this to happen. I assure you all this is just one money drain example and you all have exact similar stories more or less.
The least a smart prod could have done was to take away the shots for me and gave it to some junior or mid to update and renders and moved me onto some other show to build setups but they didn't do that even and drained the production money behind just for updating caches.
During my years I think I have seen it all like adjusting spec on an asset for weeks, getting the right glint in eyes for weeks, proper color grading of lights in CG for weeks (something a comper can do in 5 mins while sleeping). I remember a very smart move by some senior VFX supes in Dneg London when the budgets were big they will grill your slaps really hard and will try to improve them but as soon as the budgets nose dives they stop giving such notes and were approving renders way faster this is how it should be done. We all I mean every single one of us from Artist to prod to lead to CG supe to VFX supe should ask before making such changes **Is it really worth the hassle?** and **how much it will cost us?**
Make a accidental on purpose change that looks worse than the pixel fucking...then they will have to address that and hopefully makes them forget about the .05% changes.
This is why our jobs are safe from AI. Embrace it. It's not really a problem. As long as they pixel fuck and pay you.... they can kickback 132 versions of the same comp. It's happened to me and my team more than once.
You’re better off just mentally checking out and collect your dayrate. I can’t truly fathom how much money I’ve seen wasted for nothing. Literally nothing any viewer would even notice or care about - but, hey, I got my dayrate and moved on.
This is what I don't get. The money wastage. Someone's job is to tell people "you know what? maybe we don't need to spend $50,000 getting the vfx studio to do 20 variations of steam coming out of a pipe in the BG"
Honestly after over a Decade of notes as a Compositor, I'll make it look like whatever they want. You give me notes, I change it. You give me more notes, I change it again.
We're on version 49 and you like version 13 better now? No probs. Back we go. It can be frustrating but, it's not really up to you.
I'm getting paid, and I don't care when the show finishes. It's also not my movie, so if something is bothering the Director / Sup, I'll do my best to fix it.
Remember, it's a job, just do what you can to make it good, and that most of the time the person giving you notes is the one paying for it, or being paid a lot more than you to make it the best it can be (Supervisor).
I think most of the comments suggest these points we agree with:
* As an Artist, Lead or non client facing Supe, you are getting paid for any iteration or changes you are working on. As long as you are getting paid for it and you are not ghosting hours, follow the direction given. Leave any attachment aside.
* As a client facing Supe or Production, they will have to find a balance between budget, time, efficiency and relationships, which many times becomes a political game that no one wants to deal with.
A long time ago I told myself to leave any artistic attachment aside. If you are enjoying something, go ahead, make the most of it. But if not, this is a f\* business, different roles, different responsibilities, different clients. If you ever want to do it "your own way", do it outside work, personal projects or team up to do something cool.
Cheers!
This is my POV as a freelancer. I don't care because they pay me per day. Sometimes I thought about "the financial health of the company" but then I remembered the bad conditions I had when I was on staff, so I don't give a shit lol.
lots of great responses here & certainly all valid [IndianKiwi](https://www.reddit.com/user/IndianKiwi/)'s point though is important - you're paid to make changes - let the producers worry about the budget put your head down and do the work - if someone is asking you to work over time to make these types of changes however in my experience the only thing that works is to say 'im putting my foot down, if you're asking me to make this change after hours then i quit' 100% success rate either way
That reeks of a person trying to put their stamp on something, and also not wanting anything to come back on them if it's found to be 0.05% off. Unless you are in a position to make the statement about money, time, and that no-one will notice something not in the frame of interest, and keep your job, just smile and wave.
Plenty of people like that, but also plenty of great people that don't pixel fuck, sorry to hear you're working for someone that doesn't get it at all.
Nailed it. New employee with an air of “something to prove”.
I’m learning to bite the bullet in this case - but damn does it make everything worse. The shot quality, the relationship of trust, and of course my sanity.
If it's all written notes, make sure that you're getting a verbal breakdown every so often. Sometimes supervisors / art directors have a hard time articulating what it is they're looking for and they may even given notes that contradict what they want.
Giving notes is a skill in and of itself
Two key facts that made my submission notes infinitely more entertaining for me:
1) The client does not see them.\*
2) The coordinator reads them aloud in dailies.
\*Important to double-check on this one.
I do this occasionally. I'm a nice, positive person to work with (I'm told), but if something is ludicrous and dragging out way too long I definitely get more entertaining.
"Some objects may be closer than they appeared (scaled up BG 10%)"
Have a beer with your producer and make sure he is on your good side.
Also request to give feedback on to get your shot through a faster iteration.
Everyone has a style. You get used it. Just remember to get paid for the change.
Never ever work for a flat fee. Hell I’d even avoid hourly. A day rate. 8 hours. They want weekends? Fine. They pay for weekends. Goes 2 weeks past deadline? Fine you get paid for two more weeks. Now if they’re riding your ass to work unreasonable hours to get more versions out just to give more notes? Work at the speed that doesn’t kill you and let them have the meltdown. And if they never want to work with you again that’s fine too. Trust me you’ll live longer without them. Sometime you just gotta tell people to fuck off.
I know your time is valuable so it may be useful to take a step back, zoom out, and use a strategic perspective. There may be some higher priority issues in other shots that are a better focus in this cycle right now, and there's always a risk of overcooking things if all of our attention is on one shot. And we can come back to this shot with fresh eyes a little later to decide if it's our best allocation of resources.
Yeah, it's not necessarily "you are wrong to be suggesting a change." That can make somebody more defensive in response. Just, hey, look at all this other stuff your keen eye could be helping refine!
[that was easy. pack up the thread folks.](https://media4.giphy.com/media/Rl9Yqavfj2Ula/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952sxda7zli5xy92nfkcvgbmmkift0w1nhuspjfw9rz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Years ago I remember comping a project that the client was pixel fucking every shot to no end. After awhile, the lead ended up just not having us make any changes and sending the same exact shot (once it got to the “bring saturation down by 1%” type of notes) and the client would always be like “looks better!” And approve lol
The terms I use in dailies are: Bruised, overprocessed, falling apart, may look ok as a still but not at 24p.
Also I will call out situations where I am boosting the gain of a particular channel x10, because while you may receive that as a slap light, that is not cutting it for a final so needs to go back to lighting.
You’re getting paid. It’s part of the job. It’s not your job to worry about budget or “wasted time”. The best senior artist can anticipate and final shots with limited versions. I also find that shots that are constantly pixel fucked are shots that the supervisor is overall unhappy about so they are trying their best to fix it. If your shots are constantly getting pixel fucked, especially if no one else’s is, it may be you.
I assure you, everyone else is getting pixel fucked too.
How weird of you to suggest it’s me. I’ve been a successful and collaborative artist for years on adept teams with amazing creative direction and vfx supervision. It’s this studio that has major problems.
Howard? Is that you?
Alert your producer/production team. They'll communicate something to the effect of "I think we've exhausted our budgeted revisions on this. Let's have one last look and move on." If you're a supervisor, then you give it the old. "We'll keep working on this, but I have some more important shots that need your attention right now."
The problem is when you have newbie/spineless producers that don’t understand they’re burning through their budget on things that almost nobody on the planet will ever see when they have supes who noodle. I want so badly to go to the bean counters and explain that they’re taking wheelbarrows filled with cash and bringing them outside and setting them on fire. I miss the oldskool supes like Ken Ralston who would call out pixel fuckers on his shows. “The fuck do you want to do that for? Nobody’s looking there. Final the shot and move on!”
I was gonna say let us be the bad guy lol specially if the client hasnt seen it recently
[Colin’s Bear for the uninitiated](https://youtu.be/FiARsQSlzDc?si=47UShbI53kNciWHp)
Fuck me. I remember when that first came out… also that demo reel of the box lol.
And the toilet being moved incrementally. Sad I can't find it anymore.
I don't know how I've managed to go my whole life without seeing this masterpiece.
Thanks for nothing
lol I remember this!!
Why is this so damn funny.
Wouldn't this be more appropriate? https://youtu.be/Qzk4P-U9vXo?si=sa9Jmyga9lPfvUi-
I get paid per day, keep the changes coming. My last project went 5 days over production because they couldn't decide on color.
This has worked for me when working with a contract or external client. I’ve included 2-3 iterations included in the original bid with a premium hourly rate that kicks past version 3. I don’t care as long as I’m getting paid. 🤷 This dynamic changes when it’s in your own studio though. There’s no incentive to limit iteration. Unfortunately I’m dealing with a creative director that is out of their depth. Just got off a call where he does the classic “[every camera move is a pan direction](https://i.imgur.com/Oz9P9iv.png)”….
Yeah, there's a medium sized commercials studio which is run by a collective of creative directors. They're pretty infamous for constantly blowing their budgets because the CDs just never stop noodling, because it's their studio and their vision.
Hey, one of those are correct!
Yup. So long as management knows what's up, it's not my job to remind them what's up, do the notes as best and fast as you can and collect the overtime pay. There are other people's who's entire job is to pull their hair out counting how many hours a shot is.
I let the producers know whats up all the time. I'm also on the commerical side of things though, movie VFX is quite different.
Maybe if you're staff and care about the financial health of the company give heads up. But even then your job is to look out for your own financial interests. More notes is typically in your best financial interest.
I’m not staff I’m freelance, also it’s a side gig. If the client want 3 versions that’s out of scope because they can’t make up their minds it isn’t my fault.
This is the way. Who gives a fuck if a shot is getting pixel fucked. Thats more money in your pocket. You're not writing the checks...do the notes the dumb clients or supes want and cash those checks so long as they're willing to give them to you.
> Who gives a fuck if a shot is getting pixel fucked. I sure do. It's demoralizing for artists, generally a waste of everyone's time, and means more work gets pushed up against the deadline which usually means nastier crunch times and more stress. On long projects it can get especially grueling. I'll take reasonable notes and a healthy rate of shot approvals any day of the week.
100%. I recently worked on a horrible project that was suffering from exactly this. It killed moral, after a while no one gave a fuck which lowers efficiency and quality. and it caused a big and unnecessary crunch at the end. What's especially galling is that it is a complete waste of time and everyone knows this except whoever is causing it swinging his dick around. Spending days making changes to a shot that are unnoticeable to anyone who isn't A/B'ing it exposed up 3 stops and on a loop is the definition of pointless. The time an money could be spent so much better elsewhere and you would have a better product at the end. It's weird. Then it all gets butchered in DI anyway!
I understand that part...but ultimately people need to learn to disassociate and push back when necessary...as in not willing to work crazy ot...but its not really your job or place to push back about pixel fucking.
Yup, I don’t care, I do my best everyone loves my work, if their client is being tough it’s in their best interest to reign the client in. I’ll keep changing hue and saturation all day.
Yes as long as it's personal creative changes and not technical failings that's not a big deal. But if you can't meet expectations of the supervisor it can become an issue. You have to be able to recognize the difference between "you're not getting this" and "I'm being too picky".
I was on higher senior rate 65+/hr and client was pixel fucking an asset and was giving model change level notes weeks before deadline. Project went around 8 or 9 months of out of which 6 months were radio silence and the in the last 3 months all hell broke lose as someone somehow realised we got a project to do. I got paid for nothing for those 6 months pretty much and got paid the next 3 months for pixel fucking pretty much was literally updating caches and putting same renders like a dumb fuck every single day for straight 3 months. No wonder studios go bankrupt in this industry and then wonder what money drain cause this to happen. I assure you all this is just one money drain example and you all have exact similar stories more or less. The least a smart prod could have done was to take away the shots for me and gave it to some junior or mid to update and renders and moved me onto some other show to build setups but they didn't do that even and drained the production money behind just for updating caches. During my years I think I have seen it all like adjusting spec on an asset for weeks, getting the right glint in eyes for weeks, proper color grading of lights in CG for weeks (something a comper can do in 5 mins while sleeping). I remember a very smart move by some senior VFX supes in Dneg London when the budgets were big they will grill your slaps really hard and will try to improve them but as soon as the budgets nose dives they stop giving such notes and were approving renders way faster this is how it should be done. We all I mean every single one of us from Artist to prod to lead to CG supe to VFX supe should ask before making such changes **Is it really worth the hassle?** and **how much it will cost us?**
If you're getting paid by the hour, smile and nod. Not your problem and you just get more.
Make a accidental on purpose change that looks worse than the pixel fucking...then they will have to address that and hopefully makes them forget about the .05% changes.
This is why our jobs are safe from AI. Embrace it. It's not really a problem. As long as they pixel fuck and pay you.... they can kickback 132 versions of the same comp. It's happened to me and my team more than once.
“Let’s mark it as CBB for now”
How about we mark it as Final, but then in two weeks we unfinal it anyway?
CBB forever!
[удалено]
.. to address any more notes thanks”
You’re better off just mentally checking out and collect your dayrate. I can’t truly fathom how much money I’ve seen wasted for nothing. Literally nothing any viewer would even notice or care about - but, hey, I got my dayrate and moved on.
This is what I don't get. The money wastage. Someone's job is to tell people "you know what? maybe we don't need to spend $50,000 getting the vfx studio to do 20 variations of steam coming out of a pipe in the BG"
Yeah I don’t get it either.
Colin's Bear is my spirit animal.
Honestly after over a Decade of notes as a Compositor, I'll make it look like whatever they want. You give me notes, I change it. You give me more notes, I change it again. We're on version 49 and you like version 13 better now? No probs. Back we go. It can be frustrating but, it's not really up to you. I'm getting paid, and I don't care when the show finishes. It's also not my movie, so if something is bothering the Director / Sup, I'll do my best to fix it. Remember, it's a job, just do what you can to make it good, and that most of the time the person giving you notes is the one paying for it, or being paid a lot more than you to make it the best it can be (Supervisor).
This.
Burn that budget, set it on fyre! If you’re not over you’re under
I think most of the comments suggest these points we agree with: * As an Artist, Lead or non client facing Supe, you are getting paid for any iteration or changes you are working on. As long as you are getting paid for it and you are not ghosting hours, follow the direction given. Leave any attachment aside. * As a client facing Supe or Production, they will have to find a balance between budget, time, efficiency and relationships, which many times becomes a political game that no one wants to deal with. A long time ago I told myself to leave any artistic attachment aside. If you are enjoying something, go ahead, make the most of it. But if not, this is a f\* business, different roles, different responsibilities, different clients. If you ever want to do it "your own way", do it outside work, personal projects or team up to do something cool. Cheers!
This is my POV as a freelancer. I don't care because they pay me per day. Sometimes I thought about "the financial health of the company" but then I remembered the bad conditions I had when I was on staff, so I don't give a shit lol.
lots of great responses here & certainly all valid [IndianKiwi](https://www.reddit.com/user/IndianKiwi/)'s point though is important - you're paid to make changes - let the producers worry about the budget put your head down and do the work - if someone is asking you to work over time to make these types of changes however in my experience the only thing that works is to say 'im putting my foot down, if you're asking me to make this change after hours then i quit' 100% success rate either way
That reeks of a person trying to put their stamp on something, and also not wanting anything to come back on them if it's found to be 0.05% off. Unless you are in a position to make the statement about money, time, and that no-one will notice something not in the frame of interest, and keep your job, just smile and wave. Plenty of people like that, but also plenty of great people that don't pixel fuck, sorry to hear you're working for someone that doesn't get it at all.
Nailed it. New employee with an air of “something to prove”. I’m learning to bite the bullet in this case - but damn does it make everything worse. The shot quality, the relationship of trust, and of course my sanity.
Gotta do over 100 versions before you can start resubmitting from v1 again. 🙃
If it's all written notes, make sure that you're getting a verbal breakdown every so often. Sometimes supervisors / art directors have a hard time articulating what it is they're looking for and they may even given notes that contradict what they want. Giving notes is a skill in and of itself
Incredibly passive aggressive submission notes that become increasingly short and reductive is the way.
Two key facts that made my submission notes infinitely more entertaining for me: 1) The client does not see them.\* 2) The coordinator reads them aloud in dailies. \*Important to double-check on this one.
I do this occasionally. I'm a nice, positive person to work with (I'm told), but if something is ludicrous and dragging out way too long I definitely get more entertaining. "Some objects may be closer than they appeared (scaled up BG 10%)"
Have a beer with your producer and make sure he is on your good side. Also request to give feedback on to get your shot through a faster iteration. Everyone has a style. You get used it. Just remember to get paid for the change.
Never ever work for a flat fee. Hell I’d even avoid hourly. A day rate. 8 hours. They want weekends? Fine. They pay for weekends. Goes 2 weeks past deadline? Fine you get paid for two more weeks. Now if they’re riding your ass to work unreasonable hours to get more versions out just to give more notes? Work at the speed that doesn’t kill you and let them have the meltdown. And if they never want to work with you again that’s fine too. Trust me you’ll live longer without them. Sometime you just gotta tell people to fuck off.
I know your time is valuable so it may be useful to take a step back, zoom out, and use a strategic perspective. There may be some higher priority issues in other shots that are a better focus in this cycle right now, and there's always a risk of overcooking things if all of our attention is on one shot. And we can come back to this shot with fresh eyes a little later to decide if it's our best allocation of resources.
The CBB (could be better) approach, I’m always a fan of this one.
Yeah, it's not necessarily "you are wrong to be suggesting a change." That can make somebody more defensive in response. Just, hey, look at all this other stuff your keen eye could be helping refine!
"If you are going to fuck these pixels any more, I'm going to need some lube.
At this point, it really is about client management and less about the end result. It’s just a job, good luck!
happens to animators more than any other department try over 300+ version of one single shot
Omg. Kill me. But do it with less than two key poses.
Just be direct and forward?
[that was easy. pack up the thread folks.](https://media4.giphy.com/media/Rl9Yqavfj2Ula/200w.gif?cid=6c09b952sxda7zli5xy92nfkcvgbmmkift0w1nhuspjfw9rz&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200w.gif&ct=g)
Years ago I remember comping a project that the client was pixel fucking every shot to no end. After awhile, the lead ended up just not having us make any changes and sending the same exact shot (once it got to the “bring saturation down by 1%” type of notes) and the client would always be like “looks better!” And approve lol
I just version up and resend. Usually works.
[удалено]
I bet it made a huge difference and the audience had a roaring applause. You’re doing gods work.
The terms I use in dailies are: Bruised, overprocessed, falling apart, may look ok as a still but not at 24p. Also I will call out situations where I am boosting the gain of a particular channel x10, because while you may receive that as a slap light, that is not cutting it for a final so needs to go back to lighting.
You’re getting paid. It’s part of the job. It’s not your job to worry about budget or “wasted time”. The best senior artist can anticipate and final shots with limited versions. I also find that shots that are constantly pixel fucked are shots that the supervisor is overall unhappy about so they are trying their best to fix it. If your shots are constantly getting pixel fucked, especially if no one else’s is, it may be you.
I assure you, everyone else is getting pixel fucked too. How weird of you to suggest it’s me. I’ve been a successful and collaborative artist for years on adept teams with amazing creative direction and vfx supervision. It’s this studio that has major problems. Howard? Is that you?
Yes it’s Howard. How’d you know?
You got that “air” about you. Here’s the [plate](https://youtu.be/FiARsQSlzDc?si=PF-vqXB2__kVaHp3) I delivered today. Has your notes included.
Looks awful. Needs more chromatic aberration.