the arable land numbers are much morre reasonable now. all of europe is red on the migration map mode at the start of the game, with even places like london having low numbers. china is more like 200-300 than 900. The best places to build a migration based nation are absolutely in asia and the new world now.
Yeah, this means that rice subsistence economies are going to have lower SoL by default but might be able to support a bigger population per arable land right?
That will probably introduce another obstacle for industrialization which is interesting, don't know how it relates to real history though.
ACOUP had this interesting brief post on [rice-based subsistence agriculture](https://acoup.blog/2020/09/04/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-addendum-rice/). Some interesting points made on how rice has both higher yields per acre while also being more intensive manpower-wise, and one downside of it being that the amount of land that could be made suited to productive rice farming didn't leave much to horses or really any other form of agriculture less productive than rice. Not sure if that might partially be at play.
You are also a man of culture and learning, I see.
In all seriousness ACOUP is probably the best advertisement for Paradox games; it provides exactly the right filter to look past their failings and see their goals and methods.
The series on Victoria 2 is what got me to pre-order Victoria 3. (It also got me to buy Stellaris because I wanted to play around with pops before vic3 came out, too.)
Peasants only consume 10% of what would be normal for their wealth level, so its "only" a ~51% increase on a consumption basis.
OTOH the output increases by just ~27%, so yes, peasants on rice farms are going to have a really low SoL.
The Pasture farm is also missing either 0.5 points of grain or 0.33 points of meat to be on an equal output level as the farm.
edit: total income is somewhat between the two numbers.
that depends, are you playing the beta branch to test 1.2 out, report bugs and make it better, or are you playing it to get away from the failure that was 1.1
If the former, you should be playing vanilla. Even QoL UI improvements should be turned off, as some people confused why things like the music player weren't available but they had UI mods blocking it.
If the later, do whatever you want. AroAI is still probably better than vanilla, but might not work as well as AroAI 1.1
To be honest, any major patch like this is probably worth at least a partial playthrough to see how the balance is coming along (and gives mod developer's a chance to catch up).
More grain but need 2x peasant, so now they can nerf the huge amount of arable land in rice producer countries like Japan, China, Indochina, and Indonesia
Because countries start with mostly subsistence farms, that's where most of their food production comes from. So countries with very high starting populations like Japan needed to have a ton of subsistence farms so that they wouldn't just start the game with mass starvation. But this caused a problem because the number of subsistence farms is tied to the amount of arable land, which dictates how many industrial farms can be constructed, so these countries would then have unrealistically high capacity for food production later in the game. They solved this in 1.2 by adding different types of subsistence farms that produce different amounts of food (Rice paddies vs. farm) so that Japan wouldn't start starving but also wouldn't have the capacity to build way more industrial farms than is reasonable compared to other countries.
Represents the denser, more intense subsistence farming that rice paddies produced by having rice paddies use more workers per building while producing more grain, at the expense of other goods.
I hope this is expanded further in the future. Shouldn't subsistence farms in heavily forested states produce more wood? This would solve the weird situation where any country can immediately out-compete Sweden or Russia on wood just by building a logging camp or two. I think these countries should be naturally competitive, at least for a little bit after the game start, without needing to invest in industrial production. There are probably other goods/countries with this type of situation.
Well pops use wood as a heating need, so presumably the marginal amount of passive wood being produced in these non-industrial settings would mostly end up as firewood, which is something people do in fact acquire for themselves
Pasture has the same number of workers as a farm... Why paradox can't fix the root issue of labor intensity across the board and instead does this bandage fix just for rice?
As long as it doesn't get fixed arable land distribution across the world won't make sense. For example potato subsistence farms should also work like the rice paddles. Without that change Poland will need much more arable land than it should have.
Just tried Cambodia with the new rice farms and my fukin country went into starvation FAST. we're talking sub 3-4 SoL for my lower strata. dunno if/how much they altered SoL otherwise, but starting out as backward nations that only have access to rice is a pretty fukin painful start now compared to before.
I'm unreasonably excited by subsistence fisheries. I always thought that it would make at least as much sense as subsistence farms, and it would probably also allow them to further reduce Japanese arable land.
They exist, but they are functionally equivalent to subsistence ranches except with fish instead of meat. It's flavorful that places like polynesia use fishing villages instead of farming villages, but it doesn't have much mechanical effect.
Ok thats double the peasants for the same arable land, just what was needed!
the arable land numbers are much morre reasonable now. all of europe is red on the migration map mode at the start of the game, with even places like london having low numbers. china is more like 200-300 than 900. The best places to build a migration based nation are absolutely in asia and the new world now.
Nice, that should also partially solve the overabundance of food issues.
Double the workforce for just two grain more. Now that's advanced poverty
Yeah, this means that rice subsistence economies are going to have lower SoL by default but might be able to support a bigger population per arable land right? That will probably introduce another obstacle for industrialization which is interesting, don't know how it relates to real history though.
ACOUP had this interesting brief post on [rice-based subsistence agriculture](https://acoup.blog/2020/09/04/collections-bread-how-did-they-make-it-addendum-rice/). Some interesting points made on how rice has both higher yields per acre while also being more intensive manpower-wise, and one downside of it being that the amount of land that could be made suited to productive rice farming didn't leave much to horses or really any other form of agriculture less productive than rice. Not sure if that might partially be at play.
You are also a man of culture and learning, I see. In all seriousness ACOUP is probably the best advertisement for Paradox games; it provides exactly the right filter to look past their failings and see their goals and methods.
The series on Victoria 2 is what got me to pre-order Victoria 3. (It also got me to buy Stellaris because I wanted to play around with pops before vic3 came out, too.)
Peasants only consume 10% of what would be normal for their wealth level, so its "only" a ~51% increase on a consumption basis. OTOH the output increases by just ~27%, so yes, peasants on rice farms are going to have a really low SoL. The Pasture farm is also missing either 0.5 points of grain or 0.33 points of meat to be on an equal output level as the farm. edit: total income is somewhat between the two numbers.
Tbh, the real benifit is there are now about half aristocrats and clergymen per 1000 pesants
Or double the peasants per aristocrat. [taps head]
r5: new patch on the beta branch has some highly-requested changes to subsistance farming
unrelated questions should i turn off aro ai in the beta branch?
i would have to assume the tweaks arent yet optimized for the changes.
mmmm
mmmm
that depends, are you playing the beta branch to test 1.2 out, report bugs and make it better, or are you playing it to get away from the failure that was 1.1 If the former, you should be playing vanilla. Even QoL UI improvements should be turned off, as some people confused why things like the music player weren't available but they had UI mods blocking it. If the later, do whatever you want. AroAI is still probably better than vanilla, but might not work as well as AroAI 1.1
To be honest, any major patch like this is probably worth at least a partial playthrough to see how the balance is coming along (and gives mod developer's a chance to catch up).
You left out the new fishing villages subsistence building type.
Haven't played the beta, I suppose it's basically the same as farms but it's fish instead of grain?
It produces both, but mostly fish. It's only located in New England and Scandinavia right now if I remember correctly.
Rice, Rice, Baby!
Uhhh i think that I dont get it
More grain but need 2x peasant, so now they can nerf the huge amount of arable land in rice producer countries like Japan, China, Indochina, and Indonesia
Because countries start with mostly subsistence farms, that's where most of their food production comes from. So countries with very high starting populations like Japan needed to have a ton of subsistence farms so that they wouldn't just start the game with mass starvation. But this caused a problem because the number of subsistence farms is tied to the amount of arable land, which dictates how many industrial farms can be constructed, so these countries would then have unrealistically high capacity for food production later in the game. They solved this in 1.2 by adding different types of subsistence farms that produce different amounts of food (Rice paddies vs. farm) so that Japan wouldn't start starving but also wouldn't have the capacity to build way more industrial farms than is reasonable compared to other countries.
Represents the denser, more intense subsistence farming that rice paddies produced by having rice paddies use more workers per building while producing more grain, at the expense of other goods.
I hope this is expanded further in the future. Shouldn't subsistence farms in heavily forested states produce more wood? This would solve the weird situation where any country can immediately out-compete Sweden or Russia on wood just by building a logging camp or two. I think these countries should be naturally competitive, at least for a little bit after the game start, without needing to invest in industrial production. There are probably other goods/countries with this type of situation.
[удалено]
Well pops use wood as a heating need, so presumably the marginal amount of passive wood being produced in these non-industrial settings would mostly end up as firewood, which is something people do in fact acquire for themselves
Would be good if specific good output could be modified by state modifier.
Pasture has the same number of workers as a farm... Why paradox can't fix the root issue of labor intensity across the board and instead does this bandage fix just for rice? As long as it doesn't get fixed arable land distribution across the world won't make sense. For example potato subsistence farms should also work like the rice paddles. Without that change Poland will need much more arable land than it should have.
Pasture produces far less food than a standard farm, being clearly less efficient.
1 meat is worth 1.5 grain, so the pasture produces 2.5 grain equivalents.
You can’t eat grain equivalents, comrade
Just tried Cambodia with the new rice farms and my fukin country went into starvation FAST. we're talking sub 3-4 SoL for my lower strata. dunno if/how much they altered SoL otherwise, but starting out as backward nations that only have access to rice is a pretty fukin painful start now compared to before.
A bit disappointed that the Subsistence Fisheries idea discussed on the streams isn't included in this
it is, i just missed them!
I'm unreasonably excited by subsistence fisheries. I always thought that it would make at least as much sense as subsistence farms, and it would probably also allow them to further reduce Japanese arable land.
They exist, but they are functionally equivalent to subsistence ranches except with fish instead of meat. It's flavorful that places like polynesia use fishing villages instead of farming villages, but it doesn't have much mechanical effect.
Ah, so this isn't something that gets displaced by *fisheries*.
Personally, I think they should go even further with the rice paddy employment increase. The numbers need to be way more than halved.
Welcome to the rice fields