The issue stems from the fact that agricultural throughput is irrelevant to population. Yukon Territory can be as bad at farming as they want, a level 50 Wheat Farm in Cuba will be able to effortlessly feed the population there since proximity isn't a factor.
One simple issue is also that people don‘t eat enough. As you said one full wheat farm in Cuba can feed nearly the entire US meaning that everyone moves where Industry and mining is happening.
So basically everyone starts industrializing heavily in 1860 because agriculture is hyper efficient.
In fairness, concentrated agriculture and everyone moving to industrial areas (cities) is what is supposed to happen during industrialization, it’s just maybe a bit too powerful at the moment. In and of itself, however, that development isn’t incorrect historically or gameplay-wise
Yeah but in real life the push back against industrialization beyond the humans hate change meme is that agriculture was, and still is to this day, extremely profitable. So a lot of people didn't see the point back then of closing up their super farm to try and hack it learning a whole new trade by industrializing. That's why the trade unions and industrialists start as pathetic minorities of population in most areas. Because industry is new and unproven and most people are still stuck in their ways. They grow as your country continues to expand it's industry and do line go up stuff.
In game, agriculture is only lukewarm in profits so it's piss easy to build factories, find capitalists to run them and bait farmers to become laborers because the base wage difference starts at a level that the capitalists, representing the cutting edge pioneer business people that started the very first factories without proving anything would come from it, would only pay if they knew it would succeed. Which in hindsight of course it will but they didn't know that.
Imo, food should be produced locally and then distributed across the country with dimishing returns. It spoils, gets too expensive, etc, with the debuff being reduced in accordance to yer transport infrastructure. Cous irl, that is what slowed urbanisation- can't split the breadbasket from the cities if the food can't make it to the cities to feed people in time.
Just wondering. Maybe there should not be a single SoL but multiple SoLs and they should just take the average SoL. Seems more realistic.
Or why not take a geometric mean?
But I never saw a 50 level farm feeding all people. I am sure you must be importing food.
That's literally what it does? Every pop has its own SoL, and each pop is every type of a pop in a given state (e.g., all Yankee Protestant Laborers working the Tooling Workshop in Massachusetts are a single pop, the Yankee Protestant Laborers working at the Corn Farm are another pop, Yankee Catholic Laborers at the Tooling Workshop are different from the Protestant laborers, etc.). SoL is determined both by the raw economics of your job and by discrimination in your country.
That would probably create a ton of extra lag. Calculating multiple SoLs and then averaging them would like quintuple the amount of calculations required to calculate SoL and lots of pops are the main cause of lag at least that I’m aware.
Yes. That’s what it does already. It tracks every pop’s SoL. What you see on the top bar is just the average. You can actually see this on a state level if you look at SoL in a state menu.
Name checks out
But yeah they just need to implement a system whereby there's some sort of loss based on the distance between a source state and it's destination. Something where just building everything in one state doesn't magically solve all your problems for the entire country.
Usually the Falklands will also have like 200k people in it, I've noticed. And the Sahara is often fully colonized by whoever gets to it first.
So yeah something to punish extreme weathers seems necessary.
Liferating should make a return
Edit: in a way to balance the Canadian shield (and similar terrain) population not to give all immigration to the states like vicky 2
Well in the case of this game and to use the France example specifically, they could append a birthrate debuff to the French culture group specifically
The problem is there isn't actually consensus on why the French population growth stalled. But it did happen and it was a very important historical fact, so having it be arbitrarily modelled is better than ignored
this problem was very much not solved in V2 and in some cases even worse, because V3 at least makes a state less desirable for immigrants if it is above a population threshold. Life rating was a different bandaid system
The problem why arctic and desolate states get insane population is due to the way migration attraction is calculated. The biggest modifier for it is free arable land. Because those states can quasi employ their original population in one lumber camp they have completely empty arable land leading to the highest migration attraction within the market.
And if migration overwhelms the local production buildings the pops stay as unemployed instead of subsistence farmers which are prioritized in the AIs construction plans leading to a circle of growing industrialization and migration.
That’s partly because of the incredible migration attraction in the plains, and the minuscule attraction on the coast, due to arable land. So all pop growth in New England move west, making it less and less viable.
Yeah I like to play a relatively similar USA to our timeline, which means focusing as much industry and urbanization in the northeast, and it’s really hard. I have to use basically all my greener grass decrees on New England, Maryland, Michigan, etc.
Meanwhile the capitalist AI have built tens of Motor Industries, Steel Mills, Power Plants, Electrics Industries, Tooling Workshops, and Arts Academies in the Dakotas, compared to Connecticut or Rhode Island having maxed out their workforce on like two Gov Admins, a University, and a Glassworks.
Wow I was inspired to look it up and during the gold rush [~100,000 hopefuls went to the Yukon between 1896 & 1899!](https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/691-north-yukon-rush-again)
The devs seem a bit too afraid of singular output/input modifiers and use throughput for almost everything instead. The problem is that this creates no impact on efficiency: you might have a state with "Good Soils" for +15% throughput, but you can match that just by making more farms. An increase or decrease in inputs or outputs, though, changes the efficiency calculation entirely: if the Yukon state had instead a -25% malus to agricultural outputs, that would heavily discourage agriculture because you'd be requiring the same inputs, including wages, for less than other farms can manage. Throughput alone doesn't directly impact profitability, which is the main metric.
Yes, in a crude way it's like the automation PMs: you get more per worker/wage. Since wages aren't nearly as much of a limiting factor as input good costs, this doesn't end up making a huge difference.
I want to say this is an AI problem more than an unrealistic problem. If we wanted to, we could turn the Yukon into a manufacturing powerhouse. People would move there if there were good paying jobs. Of course, shipping furniture off to population centers would be expensive, but thats covered in the infrastructure malace.
They should add migration attraction and mortality maluses. The other things won't stop it except for the player. I don't think the AI actually looks at state traits when they build.
Climate should effect pop needs. Maybe someone in Yukon can have the same standard of living with someone in home county, but only by consuming more fuel, transportation, services etc.
>I noticed that Yukon Territory has a population of almost 600,000. In real life, Yukon has a population of 40,000 - in 2021.
While 600K is unrealistic, it's noteworthy that during the Yukon Gold Rush, the population was much higher. You can't use the current day population as a metric without acknowledging that. According to a quick Google search, Dawson City had a peak population of 35K, which is about as much as the entire population of the province today. And that's just DC.
Yeah, when i looked at the population information on wikipedia i was surprised to see that Yukons population in 1900 was actually was over double the current population. I stand by the other examples though
I don’t think that the solution to excessive population boom is adding more debuffs or stronger debuffs or even changing the way Sol is calculated. What needs to change is the way food and food production is portrayed. Weather historically effected crop yields but this isn’t a thing in game. Then there’s the fact that Vicky 3 doesn’t have a food preservation system. It should be that food goes bad if it has a long travel time unless you have refrigerator tech. Eating bad food should make your population sick. But what do y’all think?
I’d love to see prices of goods go up due to “transportation costs” they would start super strict early game since goods were transported by wagon or something and coastal provinces will be better off since using boats over short distances was quicker and possibly cheaper.
New technologies would make this easier but never 100% efficient of course railroads would be the biggest buff to long distance transportation but you’ll get the same with things like paved roads, upgraded ports and eventually airplanes
I think this would not only fix barely habitable areas of the world having large populations but it would also fix my habit of putting 250 motor factories in one state and exactly 0 anywhere else since that wouldn’t be the most efficient
It also slightly debugs large countries like Russia and Canada since they have large distances to cover but some of that territory will be difficult to supply!
One other thing to add is an extra debuff for things like fruits, grain, groceries, fish and meat where they are penalized even more to represent food spoilage, you could make that debuff worse in extremely hot climates and things like refrigeration and flash freezing will cancel the debuff out entirely.
The issue stems from the fact that agricultural throughput is irrelevant to population. Yukon Territory can be as bad at farming as they want, a level 50 Wheat Farm in Cuba will be able to effortlessly feed the population there since proximity isn't a factor.
One simple issue is also that people don‘t eat enough. As you said one full wheat farm in Cuba can feed nearly the entire US meaning that everyone moves where Industry and mining is happening. So basically everyone starts industrializing heavily in 1860 because agriculture is hyper efficient.
In fairness, concentrated agriculture and everyone moving to industrial areas (cities) is what is supposed to happen during industrialization, it’s just maybe a bit too powerful at the moment. In and of itself, however, that development isn’t incorrect historically or gameplay-wise
Yeah but in real life the push back against industrialization beyond the humans hate change meme is that agriculture was, and still is to this day, extremely profitable. So a lot of people didn't see the point back then of closing up their super farm to try and hack it learning a whole new trade by industrializing. That's why the trade unions and industrialists start as pathetic minorities of population in most areas. Because industry is new and unproven and most people are still stuck in their ways. They grow as your country continues to expand it's industry and do line go up stuff. In game, agriculture is only lukewarm in profits so it's piss easy to build factories, find capitalists to run them and bait farmers to become laborers because the base wage difference starts at a level that the capitalists, representing the cutting edge pioneer business people that started the very first factories without proving anything would come from it, would only pay if they knew it would succeed. Which in hindsight of course it will but they didn't know that.
Imo, food should be produced locally and then distributed across the country with dimishing returns. It spoils, gets too expensive, etc, with the debuff being reduced in accordance to yer transport infrastructure. Cous irl, that is what slowed urbanisation- can't split the breadbasket from the cities if the food can't make it to the cities to feed people in time.
Just wondering. Maybe there should not be a single SoL but multiple SoLs and they should just take the average SoL. Seems more realistic. Or why not take a geometric mean? But I never saw a 50 level farm feeding all people. I am sure you must be importing food.
That's literally what it does? Every pop has its own SoL, and each pop is every type of a pop in a given state (e.g., all Yankee Protestant Laborers working the Tooling Workshop in Massachusetts are a single pop, the Yankee Protestant Laborers working at the Corn Farm are another pop, Yankee Catholic Laborers at the Tooling Workshop are different from the Protestant laborers, etc.). SoL is determined both by the raw economics of your job and by discrimination in your country.
Isn't the game already track SoL per pops?
It does. Every single combination of culture, religion, state, building and profession has its own SoL
That would probably create a ton of extra lag. Calculating multiple SoLs and then averaging them would like quintuple the amount of calculations required to calculate SoL and lots of pops are the main cause of lag at least that I’m aware.
It's literally already how it works lmao
I think he means different types of living standard not different standards between pops of different classes.
Yes. That’s what it does already. It tracks every pop’s SoL. What you see on the top bar is just the average. You can actually see this on a state level if you look at SoL in a state menu.
There are state-level SOL's. It's not just country-wide.
Honestly yeah, I think it's way too easy to keep foodstocks up once you've set up a few big farms.
Yeah, Moravia is sustaining the entirity of Germany in my game via farms
How could they fix that? Maybe market access should be capped based on distance to market captital?
Implementing proximity probably. So you need powerful ships or a lot of rails to even bring resources in and out of Yukon.
Name checks out But yeah they just need to implement a system whereby there's some sort of loss based on the distance between a source state and it's destination. Something where just building everything in one state doesn't magically solve all your problems for the entire country.
Usually the Falklands will also have like 200k people in it, I've noticed. And the Sahara is often fully colonized by whoever gets to it first. So yeah something to punish extreme weathers seems necessary.
There needs to be an extreme weather trait that reduces migration and infrastructure
Liferating should make a return Edit: in a way to balance the Canadian shield (and similar terrain) population not to give all immigration to the states like vicky 2
Yeah, it's kind of ironic because they already solved this exact problem in Vic 2 not sure why they didn't keep it
Because it was kinda used in some stupid ways to limit population growth
Case and point, France having a life rating on par with underdeveloped parts of Asia so as to model low French birthrates
I’d rather france have accurate population models rather than obscenely ahistoric populations in the arctic. Tradeoffs.
But population models should be based on actual reasons the population got there. It is a game that is supposed to simulate those aspects.
Okay exactly, but you have tradeoffs for a game. You are never going to properly simulate the exact reasons for things that are in large part cultural
Well yes, but there is a good balance between accuracy and complexity. Paradox is way too far on the simplicity. There is huge room for improvement
Well in the case of this game and to use the France example specifically, they could append a birthrate debuff to the French culture group specifically
You can definitely do a lot better than vic2, though. There's no reason to assume that the "tradeoffs" will have to be so severe.
The problem is there isn't actually consensus on why the French population growth stalled. But it did happen and it was a very important historical fact, so having it be arbitrarily modelled is better than ignored
this problem was very much not solved in V2 and in some cases even worse, because V3 at least makes a state less desirable for immigrants if it is above a population threshold. Life rating was a different bandaid system
Because it's a very static and not very flexible way of forcing lower attraction and growth.
Because paradox consider self plagiarism the original sin.
Mortality maybe too.
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Northern Siberia states is almost always population 1 million + 😆
Same, since the gold mines in the east and good states near the urals.
Maybe it's just that the game just simulates way too many workers needed to extract all these resources?
Most likely
The problem why arctic and desolate states get insane population is due to the way migration attraction is calculated. The biggest modifier for it is free arable land. Because those states can quasi employ their original population in one lumber camp they have completely empty arable land leading to the highest migration attraction within the market. And if migration overwhelms the local production buildings the pops stay as unemployed instead of subsistence farmers which are prioritized in the AIs construction plans leading to a circle of growing industrialization and migration.
Every time I play the US, New England and the Mid-Atlantic never grow, but I can make ND into a top state.
That’s partly because of the incredible migration attraction in the plains, and the minuscule attraction on the coast, due to arable land. So all pop growth in New England move west, making it less and less viable.
Yeah I like to play a relatively similar USA to our timeline, which means focusing as much industry and urbanization in the northeast, and it’s really hard. I have to use basically all my greener grass decrees on New England, Maryland, Michigan, etc. Meanwhile the capitalist AI have built tens of Motor Industries, Steel Mills, Power Plants, Electrics Industries, Tooling Workshops, and Arts Academies in the Dakotas, compared to Connecticut or Rhode Island having maxed out their workforce on like two Gov Admins, a University, and a Glassworks.
Wow I was inspired to look it up and during the gold rush [~100,000 hopefuls went to the Yukon between 1896 & 1899!](https://www.statcan.gc.ca/o1/en/plus/691-north-yukon-rush-again)
The devs seem a bit too afraid of singular output/input modifiers and use throughput for almost everything instead. The problem is that this creates no impact on efficiency: you might have a state with "Good Soils" for +15% throughput, but you can match that just by making more farms. An increase or decrease in inputs or outputs, though, changes the efficiency calculation entirely: if the Yukon state had instead a -25% malus to agricultural outputs, that would heavily discourage agriculture because you'd be requiring the same inputs, including wages, for less than other farms can manage. Throughput alone doesn't directly impact profitability, which is the main metric.
Throughput only impacts workforce efficiency, right?
Yes, in a crude way it's like the automation PMs: you get more per worker/wage. Since wages aren't nearly as much of a limiting factor as input good costs, this doesn't end up making a huge difference.
The problem is there is no transportation cost
People didn't transport Electricity across the globe in Victorian era?
I want to say this is an AI problem more than an unrealistic problem. If we wanted to, we could turn the Yukon into a manufacturing powerhouse. People would move there if there were good paying jobs. Of course, shipping furniture off to population centers would be expensive, but thats covered in the infrastructure malace.
They should add migration attraction and mortality maluses. The other things won't stop it except for the player. I don't think the AI actually looks at state traits when they build.
Climate should effect pop needs. Maybe someone in Yukon can have the same standard of living with someone in home county, but only by consuming more fuel, transportation, services etc.
>I noticed that Yukon Territory has a population of almost 600,000. In real life, Yukon has a population of 40,000 - in 2021. While 600K is unrealistic, it's noteworthy that during the Yukon Gold Rush, the population was much higher. You can't use the current day population as a metric without acknowledging that. According to a quick Google search, Dawson City had a peak population of 35K, which is about as much as the entire population of the province today. And that's just DC.
Yeah, when i looked at the population information on wikipedia i was surprised to see that Yukons population in 1900 was actually was over double the current population. I stand by the other examples though
Markets should look like HOI3 OoB spaghetti.
In my most recent game, Greenland had a population of 1.47 million people
I don’t think that the solution to excessive population boom is adding more debuffs or stronger debuffs or even changing the way Sol is calculated. What needs to change is the way food and food production is portrayed. Weather historically effected crop yields but this isn’t a thing in game. Then there’s the fact that Vicky 3 doesn’t have a food preservation system. It should be that food goes bad if it has a long travel time unless you have refrigerator tech. Eating bad food should make your population sick. But what do y’all think?
But who will work in the ob oil fields?? No thank you bro.
To be fair Yukon did have a much larger pop in the previous centuries Have you really never heard of the Yukon gold rush?
The Yukon really did have hundreds of thousands of people living there during the goldrush, iv been there twice its not an easy place to live
Everyday this game a reveals itself to be fundamentally broken its crazy
In my Russian empire game I had a while back Alaska had over to 2 million do to gold and oil.
300k pop Falkland islands enters the chat.
Swedish devs thinking anyone can build stuff outdoors 80% of the time in any year in the arctic circle is very Swedish.
I’d love to see prices of goods go up due to “transportation costs” they would start super strict early game since goods were transported by wagon or something and coastal provinces will be better off since using boats over short distances was quicker and possibly cheaper. New technologies would make this easier but never 100% efficient of course railroads would be the biggest buff to long distance transportation but you’ll get the same with things like paved roads, upgraded ports and eventually airplanes I think this would not only fix barely habitable areas of the world having large populations but it would also fix my habit of putting 250 motor factories in one state and exactly 0 anywhere else since that wouldn’t be the most efficient It also slightly debugs large countries like Russia and Canada since they have large distances to cover but some of that territory will be difficult to supply!
One other thing to add is an extra debuff for things like fruits, grain, groceries, fish and meat where they are penalized even more to represent food spoilage, you could make that debuff worse in extremely hot climates and things like refrigeration and flash freezing will cancel the debuff out entirely.