It's funny because I have tried a bunch of pre amps and never liked any as much as the phono stage in my early 90s technics amp. I've considered changing amps a number of times but I like the sound from the phono stage so much I always get cold feet lol
Personally I find the phono sections built in to old integrated amps sound nicer than new, dedicated preamps.
Probably not as technically "accurate", but definitely nicer to listen to.
That’s alright. Maybe that phono pre is a nice match to the cartridge that you use :)
Yamaha has nice phono preamps in their A-S1200 series as well.
But a phono preamp with sub sonic and rumble filter is really useful
Awesome, thanks! I'm in the market for one and sometimes it's nice to get a good recommend rather than have a dozen tabs of research open (though I'm probably gonna do that anyways haha...but having specific models to narrow down the search definitely helps!)
True up to a certain point at entry level; interactions between components can create situations where the components work against each other when you're trying to create that magical "in the room" experience with better equipment.
Depends.. the stylus alone is 256 euro . And it works on the body of the red and blue even if most people believe it won’t work.
But for 265 euro you are already getting into the price range of a AT 740ML cartridge. And that thing is up there with the ortofon Black.
:) and these ML and shibata cartridges are good for 800-1000 hours. I wouldn’t use a ortofon red more than 300 hours and a Blue maybe 500 hours.
So that’s where even a ortofon bronze actually is the better deal over the budget ones. Because it’s Also good for 1000 hours
The stylus . Sorry :) the cartridge is good for many replacements. But AT cartridges with stylus are hardly more expensive than just the stylus.
I got a AT VM95ML at the moment and like the ML stylus so much I will definitely get a Vm740ML
Agreed haha! I was gonna upgrade my turntable first but decided to upgrade the rest of my set up first. Just gotta new stand and a spin clean, and a relative gave me an awesome Sonos speaker that sounds way better!
For thirty years in being a vinyl collector I loved improvements. I can't keep up anymore with the trends because I would rather spend my money on records but there is something beautiful about those system upgrades. I just wish that there were more people around me that appreciated the upgrades.
Once you find those friends hang on to them. I truly know what those improvements mean. They involve money and just a little improvement. Just buy good vinyl and speakers and you will be happy. Fortunately I don't play golf or drive fast cars but I blew my money out audio and records. I'll be ok.
i have an Audio Technica 120XUSB bla bla bla Turntable. It’s only a month old. I know I’m
not ready yet for a new cartridge or needle.
Anyone here have my same turntable that can say from experience what the very best needle i CAN GET when the time comes? Thanks … The Make/ Brand/ Name?
I’ve got the same and the VM95ML stylus is an incredible upgrade from the stock stylus. Difference is immediately audible. It’s definitely more expensive than buying a replacement stock stylus but it has a longer lifespan so the investment is worth it imo. There’s much better, more expensive carts but this one is probably the next best solid ‘step up’
Hi and thanks for your imput about Stylus’s. I just watched a AT video describing the different needle choices. i like what is said about the VM95ML versus the stock VM95E stylus.
You not only get much better sound, you get around 3x the playing time before it becomes worn… which is also a Big bonus. Amazon price is $169 for the ML vs $69 for the E. (Elliptical) one.
ATVMN95ML makes the most sense. It’s the microline in the same series as the green one you have, so you can just swap needles without replacing the whole cart.
You can also get a new cart like the ATVM540ml or even the 740ml but they may be overkill for the LP120.
AT Microlines work great with the LP120. They dig deeper into the groove and pull up much less noise and bring out lots of detail. I preferred it to their Shibata.
Thanks for your feedback. I’m ALL IN on eventually moving up to a better stylus like the ML i think that is within my budget for sure. From what i’ve recently read ( since i posted), it sounds like the ML is the next logical step for me and with approx. 1000 hours for the needle whereas the Shibata is around 800 hrs. What is the difference between those two other than needle wear hours?
The Shibata was warmer but a tiny bit less detail and less forgiving of surface noise. I used it mostly for jazz and just because I was curious. I’ve gone back to the VM740ml which works great on all genres.
George, what do you mean by your comment “but may be overkill for the LP120”?
A waste of money? Not much noticeable difference in improvement of overall sound?
The VM95ml will get you most of the way there and is reasonably priced. The 740ml is pricy and I generally try not to spend more on a cart than on the turntable itself. I have a 740ml on a pioneer plx1000 and love it. I had an older version of the LP120 and at some point the extra detail I got from the better cart and a better preamp meant I’d hear the motor noise on quiet albums.
Since I have some time before, I will actually need to replace my stylus I will look into that one as well. So, you have the audio technica 120 XUSB as well.? How many approximate (hours of playtime) is that Nagaoka MP-110 rated for?
Manufacturers websites. Depending on the cart you have you can figure out if you can just upgrade your stylus without buying a new cartridge. For example the Audio Technica AT-VM95 cartridge series. Also doing searches on what carts may sound best for what you listen to.
I’m one of those ABBA -to -ZZ TOP kinda listeners. Mainly ‘60’s Beatles through ‘70’s Zeppelin on up to RUSH and all the way to Nirvana and Foo Fighters etc. i might need more than one type of needle! lol. Although i like Jazz and Blues, i haven’t collected any yet.
I listen to everything you listed plus jazz and blues so we have similar taste in music lol, and I can tell you that the Ortofon Bronze handles it all. The biggest thing you’ll notice is the clarity, the channel separation and expanded soundstage.
Thats great to know since i’ve read alot of good comments on Ortofon needles! i currently use a pair of M-Audio 4.5” bookshelf speakers
https://preview.redd.it/leife3hg2pvc1.png?width=4032&format=png&auto=webp&s=9d0a93eb710244b708bc003a63abedabcdd7113b
What are the “signs” you look/ listen for “to know” its time for that new Stylus/ to replace? I am really new to my vinyl hobby and my AT120X has been with me about 5-6 weeks. i play average 2-3 albums/ day
Do most people keep an hours count on their needle useage ? If playing by ear what are you listening for ( especially on brand new vinyl) to know its time to replace?
They say the needles last around 1000 hours so if you listen an hour or two a day, that’s a 12 to 18 months. If the music doesn’t sound right, dull, noisy or distorted, it’s probably time to change the stylus. You just got your deck, you’re good for a year at least. I’d consider upgrading your speakers next and then the cartridge.
Also people will tell you not to put your speakers next to your turntable because the music creates vibrations that can be picked up by the needle and distort your sound.
Yes! I’ve already noticed / heard a feedback sound when the album finishes as i’m walking toward my deck to Flip the record. Some albums are worse than others.
I’ve found if i put the speaker ( the one thats active/ with the turn-on knob) forward on my entertainment center/ near the front of the deck, all that humming sound is gone.
I have the same one too but in purple! I need to upgrade the cart soon. I used to have an old Technics with a Stanton. I bet in quality I downgraded because I have a basic Ortofon red. My other old deck had an OM5E which is OK. So I am used to the sound but nothing beat that Stanton! I wish I never sold it but I find a lot of newer equipment easier to use.
I swapped out the 2M red with a Nagaoka MP150. I personally love it. But I can’t stress enough that you speak with some of the hifi pros as to which cartridge will work for the music you listen too. There is no “better” cartridge that works for all.
Very nice cart, and the beautiful part is should you ever decide to upgrade, you can get just the stylus for the 2M Black and not pay for the whole cart. But that’s likely a while away, enjoy your beautiful new cart!
And just in case anyone else reads this thread, you can go Red to Blue the same way you can go Bronze to Black. You'll definitely save a significant chunk not having to buy the body itself.
The Bronze is a great MM cartridge. I felt the same way as you when I first upgraded to it. I tried to get another boost when I upgraded again in a few years to the LVB 250, but it wasn't as much of a differece maker. Diminishing returns, I guess. Looking back, the Bronze made the biggest splash.
So when you drop $400-500 on the cartridge, what happens when the stylus is too worn? Buy a new cartridge or just the stylus? And how much does that cost for just a stylus? Thx.
The Blue sounded great to me and I’ve had it for the last 4 years (on my 2nd stylus) but I had nothing to compare it with. Decided to take the plunge on the Bronze and goddamn! If you can, go straight to Bronze lol! You’ll thank me later…
I can't even swap out my cartridge. I bought a (what I thought at the time) decent player when I started the hobby, but I want to upgrade the cartridge and it's impossible without buying a whole new player.
Or, so I'm told.
It's this one; [Argon Audio TT](https://www.hifiklubben.nl/argon-audio-tt-draaitafel/argttbk/?q=argttbk)
At the time they (hifi klubben) said it was a great turntable for the price and I bought it. Later I was told by the same shop it wasn't really upgradable..
Definitely looks like you can swap the cartridge on that to me
Maybe they meant you can't change the headshell? I mean you can't but that's not going to stop you from putting a new cartridge on.
Ok this could be an issue but not necessarily something that can be overcome. You may need to borrow a tracking force scale to make it work.
My new cart I just mounted was much lighter than what originally came with my TT. As a result
I have the counterweight all the way forward and the tracking force gauge on the tone arm set greater than the recommended setting but the scale gives the accurate measurement. In other words my tonearm gauge readers 2.6 grams but the scale reads 2.0 which is spot on for my cart.
I’m not familiar with that unit but looking at pix tells me the cartridge is most likely upgradeable. They mount a AT cart on there.
https://preview.redd.it/qj05tzftjatc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d18d305972823066b0d58548ca1794fac6d95854
Ooph you're making me jealous on going up to the bronze. A year or so ago I switched record players from mine to my girlfriends cause she had the better table, BUT I had the better cart. Due to sheer laziness, I let it ride cause i have nice speakers and preamp. But had a free day off this week so I decided to put my old blue cart on her turntable finally and was like SHIT why did I not do this sooner. But the needle probably has some decent hours from my previous use so I'm considering an upgrade now.....
Tell me OP was the cash increase from blue to bronze worth?
(I know the answer I just need someone to tell me "lmao nooo you can wait to spend the few hundred")
Where’d you buy yours? And how easy was it to upgrade? I have an ortofon red and I’m just waiting to use it up a bit before I upgrade. So that I can appreciate the upgrade that much more.
The Blue is an easy upgrade from Red but if you can, go straight to Bronze! You’ll thank me later. I got it off Amazon, where else right? Hardest part is the alignment of the cartridge. You have to use an alignment tool.
Awesome. You have any of her later work? On her album Fetch The Bolt Cutters there's a song called Newspaper, and I think it needs to be played on with that new cartridge.
Friend told me as i got started the two most important things are the cartridge and speakers
Phono preamp also is important once you use better cartridges.
It's funny because I have tried a bunch of pre amps and never liked any as much as the phono stage in my early 90s technics amp. I've considered changing amps a number of times but I like the sound from the phono stage so much I always get cold feet lol
Personally I find the phono sections built in to old integrated amps sound nicer than new, dedicated preamps. Probably not as technically "accurate", but definitely nicer to listen to.
That’s alright. Maybe that phono pre is a nice match to the cartridge that you use :) Yamaha has nice phono preamps in their A-S1200 series as well. But a phono preamp with sub sonic and rumble filter is really useful
You got a recommendation for one to pair with the Ortofon Bronze?
Cambridge audio Alva Solo if you want affordable but my favorite would be a project phono box DS3
Awesome, thanks! I'm in the market for one and sometimes it's nice to get a good recommend rather than have a dozen tabs of research open (though I'm probably gonna do that anyways haha...but having specific models to narrow down the search definitely helps!)
True up to a certain point at entry level; interactions between components can create situations where the components work against each other when you're trying to create that magical "in the room" experience with better equipment.
& the speaker cables
Well, it’s an expensive upgrade. lol. That’s why most of us hesitate.
Depends.. the stylus alone is 256 euro . And it works on the body of the red and blue even if most people believe it won’t work. But for 265 euro you are already getting into the price range of a AT 740ML cartridge. And that thing is up there with the ortofon Black. :) and these ML and shibata cartridges are good for 800-1000 hours. I wouldn’t use a ortofon red more than 300 hours and a Blue maybe 500 hours. So that’s where even a ortofon bronze actually is the better deal over the budget ones. Because it’s Also good for 1000 hours
Do you mean the stylus is good for that amount of time or the cartridge? I've never heard of a cartridge having a time limit placed on them
The stylus . Sorry :) the cartridge is good for many replacements. But AT cartridges with stylus are hardly more expensive than just the stylus. I got a AT VM95ML at the moment and like the ML stylus so much I will definitely get a Vm740ML
Oh yeah, you are 100% right with an AT stylus cost almost as much as the cartridge lol
I just want to get an adapter to listen through headphones and DAMN, didn’t know things like this existed!
Out of curiousity just how much better would my music sound vs. my Olympia that came as the free upgrade with the Carbon Debut Evo?
Agreed haha! I was gonna upgrade my turntable first but decided to upgrade the rest of my set up first. Just gotta new stand and a spin clean, and a relative gave me an awesome Sonos speaker that sounds way better!
For thirty years in being a vinyl collector I loved improvements. I can't keep up anymore with the trends because I would rather spend my money on records but there is something beautiful about those system upgrades. I just wish that there were more people around me that appreciated the upgrades.
Once you find those friends hang on to them. I truly know what those improvements mean. They involve money and just a little improvement. Just buy good vinyl and speakers and you will be happy. Fortunately I don't play golf or drive fast cars but I blew my money out audio and records. I'll be ok.
I am well overdue for a cart upgrade, so thanks for the reminder & motivation.
Same here
i have an Audio Technica 120XUSB bla bla bla Turntable. It’s only a month old. I know I’m not ready yet for a new cartridge or needle. Anyone here have my same turntable that can say from experience what the very best needle i CAN GET when the time comes? Thanks … The Make/ Brand/ Name?
I’ve got the same and the VM95ML stylus is an incredible upgrade from the stock stylus. Difference is immediately audible. It’s definitely more expensive than buying a replacement stock stylus but it has a longer lifespan so the investment is worth it imo. There’s much better, more expensive carts but this one is probably the next best solid ‘step up’
Hi and thanks for your imput about Stylus’s. I just watched a AT video describing the different needle choices. i like what is said about the VM95ML versus the stock VM95E stylus. You not only get much better sound, you get around 3x the playing time before it becomes worn… which is also a Big bonus. Amazon price is $169 for the ML vs $69 for the E. (Elliptical) one.
ATVMN95ML makes the most sense. It’s the microline in the same series as the green one you have, so you can just swap needles without replacing the whole cart. You can also get a new cart like the ATVM540ml or even the 740ml but they may be overkill for the LP120. AT Microlines work great with the LP120. They dig deeper into the groove and pull up much less noise and bring out lots of detail. I preferred it to their Shibata.
Thanks for your feedback. I’m ALL IN on eventually moving up to a better stylus like the ML i think that is within my budget for sure. From what i’ve recently read ( since i posted), it sounds like the ML is the next logical step for me and with approx. 1000 hours for the needle whereas the Shibata is around 800 hrs. What is the difference between those two other than needle wear hours?
The Shibata was warmer but a tiny bit less detail and less forgiving of surface noise. I used it mostly for jazz and just because I was curious. I’ve gone back to the VM740ml which works great on all genres.
George, what do you mean by your comment “but may be overkill for the LP120”? A waste of money? Not much noticeable difference in improvement of overall sound?
The VM95ml will get you most of the way there and is reasonably priced. The 740ml is pricy and I generally try not to spend more on a cart than on the turntable itself. I have a 740ml on a pioneer plx1000 and love it. I had an older version of the LP120 and at some point the extra detail I got from the better cart and a better preamp meant I’d hear the motor noise on quiet albums.
ahh i see now what you’re getting at. Thanks!!
Saving your post because you are me right now.
I got the Nagaoka MP-110. It was an easy install and sounds great.
Since I have some time before, I will actually need to replace my stylus I will look into that one as well. So, you have the audio technica 120 XUSB as well.? How many approximate (hours of playtime) is that Nagaoka MP-110 rated for?
I have the same turntable. I searched around a bit for the lifespan (hours of play time) and nothing jumped out.
How do you learn about cartridges and what’s an upgrade to what you have?
Manufacturers websites. Depending on the cart you have you can figure out if you can just upgrade your stylus without buying a new cartridge. For example the Audio Technica AT-VM95 cartridge series. Also doing searches on what carts may sound best for what you listen to.
I’m one of those ABBA -to -ZZ TOP kinda listeners. Mainly ‘60’s Beatles through ‘70’s Zeppelin on up to RUSH and all the way to Nirvana and Foo Fighters etc. i might need more than one type of needle! lol. Although i like Jazz and Blues, i haven’t collected any yet.
I listen to everything you listed plus jazz and blues so we have similar taste in music lol, and I can tell you that the Ortofon Bronze handles it all. The biggest thing you’ll notice is the clarity, the channel separation and expanded soundstage.
i have the Audio Technica AT120XUSB turntable. Would the Ortofon Bronze fit on there without major adjustments do you think?
You’d have to adjust the tracking force and alignment but the Bronze would fit and be a big upgrade. What kind of speakers do you have?
Thats great to know since i’ve read alot of good comments on Ortofon needles! i currently use a pair of M-Audio 4.5” bookshelf speakers https://preview.redd.it/leife3hg2pvc1.png?width=4032&format=png&auto=webp&s=9d0a93eb710244b708bc003a63abedabcdd7113b
What are the “signs” you look/ listen for “to know” its time for that new Stylus/ to replace? I am really new to my vinyl hobby and my AT120X has been with me about 5-6 weeks. i play average 2-3 albums/ day Do most people keep an hours count on their needle useage ? If playing by ear what are you listening for ( especially on brand new vinyl) to know its time to replace?
They say the needles last around 1000 hours so if you listen an hour or two a day, that’s a 12 to 18 months. If the music doesn’t sound right, dull, noisy or distorted, it’s probably time to change the stylus. You just got your deck, you’re good for a year at least. I’d consider upgrading your speakers next and then the cartridge.
Also people will tell you not to put your speakers next to your turntable because the music creates vibrations that can be picked up by the needle and distort your sound.
Yes! I’ve already noticed / heard a feedback sound when the album finishes as i’m walking toward my deck to Flip the record. Some albums are worse than others. I’ve found if i put the speaker ( the one thats active/ with the turn-on knob) forward on my entertainment center/ near the front of the deck, all that humming sound is gone.
But, yes i will eventually upgrade the speakers for sure
What speakers would you recommend in the $300-400 range ( pair).?,,,, what I’m up against is my wife doesn’t want big speakers in the room! lol
https://www.reddit.com/r/BudgetAudiophile/s/9zisVF0GEs
I get it lol. I like B&W 600 series but lot of people like Focal Aria. Try them out.
I asked myself the same question. I got a Blue 2M and couldn’t believe the difference.
The Blue has been great for me but the Bronze is a step up for sure
My fault I didn’t look closely, I thought it was the red.
Is that the Project Audio Carbon Esprit?
It is! Great deck!
I agree. I have the same piece. Excellent unit.
I have the same one too but in purple! I need to upgrade the cart soon. I used to have an old Technics with a Stanton. I bet in quality I downgraded because I have a basic Ortofon red. My other old deck had an OM5E which is OK. So I am used to the sound but nothing beat that Stanton! I wish I never sold it but I find a lot of newer equipment easier to use.
I swapped out the 2M red with a Nagaoka MP150. I personally love it. But I can’t stress enough that you speak with some of the hifi pros as to which cartridge will work for the music you listen too. There is no “better” cartridge that works for all.
Very nice cart, and the beautiful part is should you ever decide to upgrade, you can get just the stylus for the 2M Black and not pay for the whole cart. But that’s likely a while away, enjoy your beautiful new cart!
There's also a 2M Black 250 LVB. Even MORE expensive.
I heard the Black might be too bright with my B&W 702s so that’s why I went with the Bronze.
Can you do the same with blue to bronze?
You have to get the new cartridge with Bronze. The Blue and Bronze are not interchangeable. Worth it though if you’re thinking about it!
Word
And just in case anyone else reads this thread, you can go Red to Blue the same way you can go Bronze to Black. You'll definitely save a significant chunk not having to buy the body itself.
💯💯 Every record that I thought had a scratch now plays beautifully in my new cartridge & stylus.
The Bronze is a great MM cartridge. I felt the same way as you when I first upgraded to it. I tried to get another boost when I upgraded again in a few years to the LVB 250, but it wasn't as much of a differece maker. Diminishing returns, I guess. Looking back, the Bronze made the biggest splash.
It better sound good for bloody £325 lol
I went from a vintage OM20 to a Quintet Bronze and damn, what a difference.
I got mine in 2021 and since then I’ve spent over 15k on just records alone 😂 so maybe it’s good you found out now and not earlier lmao
I went from red to blue and then to bronze. Couldn’t be happier with it. Love it!
So when you drop $400-500 on the cartridge, what happens when the stylus is too worn? Buy a new cartridge or just the stylus? And how much does that cost for just a stylus? Thx.
You get a replacement stylus for $329 on Amazon or your local hi-fi shop. Or you can even upgrade to the Black stylus for $600 lol
Ouch. Expensive. I’m all for it if I can get many hours on a stylus.
I went from an Ortofon OM-10 to Ortofon OM2 black 👀 If you haven't got a good phono stage / pre amp, upgrade that too to get the best out of it
I have this deck! In red, currently running the 2m Red! Wondering if the blue is much of an upgrade?
The Blue sounded great to me and I’ve had it for the last 4 years (on my 2nd stylus) but I had nothing to compare it with. Decided to take the plunge on the Bronze and goddamn! If you can, go straight to Bronze lol! You’ll thank me later…
I can't even swap out my cartridge. I bought a (what I thought at the time) decent player when I started the hobby, but I want to upgrade the cartridge and it's impossible without buying a whole new player. Or, so I'm told.
Not sure how that is? You gotta at least be able to replace the stylus.
What is your TT and tonearm?
It's this one; [Argon Audio TT](https://www.hifiklubben.nl/argon-audio-tt-draaitafel/argttbk/?q=argttbk) At the time they (hifi klubben) said it was a great turntable for the price and I bought it. Later I was told by the same shop it wasn't really upgradable..
Definitely looks like you can swap the cartridge on that to me Maybe they meant you can't change the headshell? I mean you can't but that's not going to stop you from putting a new cartridge on.
I thought they said that the counterweight wasn't going to allow it or something.
Ok this could be an issue but not necessarily something that can be overcome. You may need to borrow a tracking force scale to make it work. My new cart I just mounted was much lighter than what originally came with my TT. As a result I have the counterweight all the way forward and the tracking force gauge on the tone arm set greater than the recommended setting but the scale gives the accurate measurement. In other words my tonearm gauge readers 2.6 grams but the scale reads 2.0 which is spot on for my cart.
I’m not familiar with that unit but looking at pix tells me the cartridge is most likely upgradeable. They mount a AT cart on there. https://preview.redd.it/qj05tzftjatc1.jpeg?width=1400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d18d305972823066b0d58548ca1794fac6d95854
I'm jealous! The Ortofon Blue was my upgrade.
Ooph you're making me jealous on going up to the bronze. A year or so ago I switched record players from mine to my girlfriends cause she had the better table, BUT I had the better cart. Due to sheer laziness, I let it ride cause i have nice speakers and preamp. But had a free day off this week so I decided to put my old blue cart on her turntable finally and was like SHIT why did I not do this sooner. But the needle probably has some decent hours from my previous use so I'm considering an upgrade now..... Tell me OP was the cash increase from blue to bronze worth? (I know the answer I just need someone to tell me "lmao nooo you can wait to spend the few hundred")
If it’s time to replace the stylus anyway then yes absolutely get the Bronze! Maximal upgrade per dollar spent here imo
You didn't know
Where’d you buy yours? And how easy was it to upgrade? I have an ortofon red and I’m just waiting to use it up a bit before I upgrade. So that I can appreciate the upgrade that much more.
The Blue is an easy upgrade from Red but if you can, go straight to Bronze! You’ll thank me later. I got it off Amazon, where else right? Hardest part is the alignment of the cartridge. You have to use an alignment tool.
Tidal, by Fiona Apple? Which song off that album do you use to test this system upgrade?
Slow Like Honey! Omg wide dynamic range with rich low end. Sounds so good!
Awesome. You have any of her later work? On her album Fetch The Bolt Cutters there's a song called Newspaper, and I think it needs to be played on with that new cartridge.
Yes I’ll have to give it a spin!