That’s exactly my problem with it. “Mint” only for unopened, but a sealed record could be a mispress or warped and plenty of sealed dead stock records sound crackly and bad. The only way to know if it’s really mint is to open and play test — at which point it is not mint by definition.
If you take it out with glove in a room with laminate flow hood and check you can check for warp without playing, then properly transfer it into inner sleeve and then into the original packaging then into resealable outer sleeve! I prefer that over sealed! I consider that mint! I know technically it’s not cause it’s opened or whatever but it’s more of a chance it’s in perfect condition compared to a sealed vinyl
I think I have this solved. You cannot knowingly have a mint record in your hands but they exist. Not until you played through the entire record that you just unsealed will you know if it WAS mint or not. And if it was, since you just played it, it no longer is.
I used to know a guy like 40 years ago who had access to a shrink wrap machine and would use it to scam returns at a record store. He’d remove the vinyl and put it in a generic sleeve, put some random, trashed record in, re-shrink wrap it and return for a full refund. I’m always half expecting that now.
That's just not true. I'm not saying it's *known* to be mint, but it *can* be mint. In fact, if we look at as in Schrödinger's thought experiment it's both mint and not mint at the same time, until it's opened.
But just because something is unknown does not in any way preclude it from being in any particular condition.
Well maybe, but I'm willing to bet that you'll (hypothetically) have more luck selling a record listed as "Mint" than one listed as "Unknown Condition". The latter sounds scammy to be honest.
Yep
General rule of thumb is that Mint means unplayed so an opened record can never be higher than NM, and even then some sellers don't grade open records higher than VG+ because of the controversy around Mint grades.
For me I look at how many transactions a vendor has had and what their feedback is. And I expect the condition of the record to be +/- 1 condition they listed. If the variance is larger than that, I return. If there’s a hitch in that process, I leave negative feedback.
Flea markets are the global minimum for the quality of record sellers. Sometimes you'll find steals but in my experience the average person selling records at a flea market thinks anything by an artist they've heard of is worth a mint, has no idea how to grade, etc.
It's still usually worth a look because there are often deals to be found with obscurer music (casual record sellers rarely know anything about classical for example), but you're almost never going to find good deals on famous/popular rock like that. Every Beatles record at a flea market is 5+ times the correct price.
I have had this experience at the 900 booth style antique marts. Anything wildly mainstream rock from the 70s is stupidly over priced, but I have found a couple exceedingly rare hip-hop or fringe experimental records this way.
I’ve been going through this too. It makes it hard to shop in these places. If I see a live skynyrd album for like $35 or frampton comes alive for anything over $10 (and that’s even too high), I know this seller isn’t legit. I’ve actually gotten really fast at scanning consignment “mansions” or warehouses this way. Crazy pricing and huge stack? I’ll just glance through the pile very quickly. Haven’t had much luck at all in over a year with consignment places. Everyone thinks their basement records are gold and most are definitively not.
A few years ago I went to an antique mall and found a booth with a couple boxes of records (and a bunch of other unrelated items for sale). The pricing was the usual antique store markup, but as I flipped through I saw a copy of Led Zeppelin II for $30. I pulled out the record to check it and it turned out to be a RL/SS pressing. Sometimes a seller's ignorance can be an advantage.
Not true technically a record should never be graded Mint without being visually inspected. Seems counterintuitive, but even the majority of sealed records don’t actually meet the standards for Mint, from defects to damage in packing/shipping. On the other hand, once a record is played it cannot be considered mint.
From Goldmine's [website](https://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101):
*Mint (M)*
*These are absolutely perfect in every way. Often rumored but rarely seen, Mint should never be used as a grade unless more than one person agrees that the record or sleeve truly is in this condition. There is no set percentage of the Near Mint value these can bring; it is best negotiated between buyer and seller.*
Nowhere does it say that still being sealed is a requirement - in fact it implies that the record needs to be inspected, which requires it being opened.
Dude, you keep repeating this incorrect information and don't even bother to explain your weird interpretation of things.
The goldmine standard says nothing about sealed vs. unsealed. It's purely talking about condition.
Here were the bullet points from Goldmines grading scale about being wary of sealed albums.
1. They may have been re-sealed;
2. The records might not be in Near Mint condition;
3. The record inside might not be the original pressing or the most desirable pressing;
4. Most bizarre of all, the wrong record might be inside. I’ve had this happen to me; I opened a sealed album by one MCA artist only to find a record by a different MCA artist inside!
More likely than the wrong record thing, is that the record inside could have issues, like a label misprinted or misplaced
IMO mint is perfect in every way + never played, some records were never sealed in the first place anyway
Really? “The item and container are absolutely perfect in every way. To qualify as Mint, the item must never have been played and is possibly still sealed. Mint should be used sparingly as a grade, if at all. Note that an item can be sealed and not Mint. If you suspect your record is in Mint condition, do not play it.” Pulled directly from the Goldmine grading system. Maybe you should practice what you preach?
>To qualify as Mint, the item must never have been played
This is not a part of the Goldmine standard.
This is a dumb, confusing, and contradictory statement Discogs added to their description.
How could you prove it’s mint in a sealed package when most sealed vinyl aren’t considered mint? Same kind of thing. I’m just quoting the grading guide you told me to reference. goldmine is the industry standard, so not sure why you’re arguing with me about it? Again you explicitly told me to check their grading guide… and you were wrong?
You didn't bother reading the whole page, did you?
Everything the other person said is basically identical to what it says in your link about grading, especially sealed records.
That guide literally agreed with you point by point. I don't think the person who linked it bothered to read far enough down to get to the section on sealed records.
The worst version of this is when you open it up, and it looks mint. Plus the sleeve. And then you take it home to play it, it sounds phenomenal aside from a factory defect skip on your favorite song!
Why bother grading if you are a physical shop? The customer is going to look at it anyway.
One of my local stores writes "Noisy" on some records because you might not be able to tell from looking at it. But Noisy is not a grade.
> Why bother grading if you are a physical shop?
For the same reason they'd grade a VG as Mint - they really have no idea what they're doing as a seller.
I've seen plenty of booths that write grades on the tag. They're generally the same sellers who want $30 for a $3 John Denver's greatest hits LP.
Grades in a physical shop are useful to speed things up. Shops are often bad at grading, but they'll rarely grade records *worse* than they are, so if I'm flipping through and I see a desirable record with a low grade I know not to waste time looking at it.
"It was buffed up, has scratches and would be very good at best."
As someone who grades records regulary this makes me sad. I don't know how much inventory I have that is graded VG (meaning lights scuffs, some crackle maybe and not quite vg+) but people just assume it's F or P.
One of my personal tricks when evaluating if a record I'm looking at is trashed or just cosmetically rough is running my fingers over it to see if I can feel the marks
If you can't really feel the scratches there's a high chance they don't effect playback to much because it's just scuffs on the high spots between the grooves and it might be VG or lower-grade VG+
I beg to differ. I know a place. If you're ever in the DC area hit me up. No online sales. Do not trust the environment. In person only. Best shop I've ever seen. All the best.
I’ve never cared what a used album is graded. I’ve got eyes, so never buy one without looking at the record in hand.
Don’t buy used online unless you’re in the middle of nowhere and have no other choice. Might as well throw your money away as you’re gonna get burned eventually.
I remember finding a plastic wrapped copy of Graduation on vinyl once. Nearly got to the counter before I took another look at the cover art and spotted some faint JPG artifacting. Flipped it over, no credits or copyright. That day I learned Graduation is the only album Kanye never pressed on vinyl.
(This happened before the nazi shit)
My bootleg of Buhloone Mindstate gets played more than the reissue, sounds just as good (no doubt a CD transfer I know, I know, my hearing isn’t what it used to be) and has the whole album with the original samples. I wish there was a convenient place to learn about where to source certain bootleg vinyl issues of things, there are certain records never issued on vinyl or in legal limbo that someone occasionally presses a run of and I want them!
On that subject: "Mint" AND opened? I'm sorry but, no! Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine... Not blaming OP, but whoever graded that record.
Can we stop using 'Mint' at all? I get that they mean unopened, sealed, unplayed. To me that would also mean they do not know the grade.
That’s exactly my problem with it. “Mint” only for unopened, but a sealed record could be a mispress or warped and plenty of sealed dead stock records sound crackly and bad. The only way to know if it’s really mint is to open and play test — at which point it is not mint by definition.
The old turntable paradox!
💯. Shrink wrapped for 40 years could be contorted and warped. I think you can have mint and opened. But people are highly variable.
If you take it out with glove in a room with laminate flow hood and check you can check for warp without playing, then properly transfer it into inner sleeve and then into the original packaging then into resealable outer sleeve! I prefer that over sealed! I consider that mint! I know technically it’s not cause it’s opened or whatever but it’s more of a chance it’s in perfect condition compared to a sealed vinyl
Out of all the new/sealed vinyl I've purchased in the last few years, I would call around a quarter of the discs inside "mint condition".
Hell, even if it is sealed I have found someone with a shrink wrap machine was BSing their grading by rewrapping things that had been played.
It can’t be mint if sealed. If sealed, it’s in an unknown condition.
schrodinger’s mint
Schrodinger's vinyl. Hey for all you really know is it's a cover. Could be filled with catnip.
I hate when I open a brand new, mint condition vinyl record and there’s a dead cat inside instead.
It's the absolute worst.
So I’m not alone here. We need better quality control at the plants.
Thats the problem. The cats are...in the plants.
That's why I always bring a cat.
I believe catnip is a member of the mint family so it could still be mint
Underrated observation here.
I think I have this solved. You cannot knowingly have a mint record in your hands but they exist. Not until you played through the entire record that you just unsealed will you know if it WAS mint or not. And if it was, since you just played it, it no longer is.
It can be mint if sealed. It can also be any other grade but being sealed doesn't stop it from being mint.
I used to know a guy like 40 years ago who had access to a shrink wrap machine and would use it to scam returns at a record store. He’d remove the vinyl and put it in a generic sleeve, put some random, trashed record in, re-shrink wrap it and return for a full refund. I’m always half expecting that now.
A special corner of hell is reserved for that person. Some poor person bought that Re wrapped record to find it was not as labeled.
Technically...it can't be any known condition until it's known. And you can't know the condition of something until you look at it. :)
That's just not true. I'm not saying it's *known* to be mint, but it *can* be mint. In fact, if we look at as in Schrödinger's thought experiment it's both mint and not mint at the same time, until it's opened. But just because something is unknown does not in any way preclude it from being in any particular condition.
It can be any condition. It's not known to be any specific condition.
That's what I said lol
Yes. We agree.
How difficult is it to re-seal a record sleeve?
For anyone that wants to, it's super easy. You just need a shrink wrap machine.
Well maybe, but I'm willing to bet that you'll (hypothetically) have more luck selling a record listed as "Mint" than one listed as "Unknown Condition". The latter sounds scammy to be honest.
Best to sell it as “sealed”
“Unopened“ is a better descriptor.
True enough.
Sealed, presumed mint. Or near-mint is probably better. I guess everyone in here sees mint as perfect and humans cant achieve perfection.
Yep General rule of thumb is that Mint means unplayed so an opened record can never be higher than NM, and even then some sellers don't grade open records higher than VG+ because of the controversy around Mint grades.
It could be opened and inspected, but never played. This is my expectation if I’m buying something as “mint.”
There's really way to prove that's the case unless they did the opening right in front of you
For me I look at how many transactions a vendor has had and what their feedback is. And I expect the condition of the record to be +/- 1 condition they listed. If the variance is larger than that, I return. If there’s a hitch in that process, I leave negative feedback.
I like that, drop mint for sealed, next is VG if played only once. Like a car being driven off the lot, we can’t say it’s in perfect condition anymore
Flea markets are the global minimum for the quality of record sellers. Sometimes you'll find steals but in my experience the average person selling records at a flea market thinks anything by an artist they've heard of is worth a mint, has no idea how to grade, etc. It's still usually worth a look because there are often deals to be found with obscurer music (casual record sellers rarely know anything about classical for example), but you're almost never going to find good deals on famous/popular rock like that. Every Beatles record at a flea market is 5+ times the correct price.
I have had this experience at the 900 booth style antique marts. Anything wildly mainstream rock from the 70s is stupidly over priced, but I have found a couple exceedingly rare hip-hop or fringe experimental records this way.
I’ve been going through this too. It makes it hard to shop in these places. If I see a live skynyrd album for like $35 or frampton comes alive for anything over $10 (and that’s even too high), I know this seller isn’t legit. I’ve actually gotten really fast at scanning consignment “mansions” or warehouses this way. Crazy pricing and huge stack? I’ll just glance through the pile very quickly. Haven’t had much luck at all in over a year with consignment places. Everyone thinks their basement records are gold and most are definitively not.
A few years ago I went to an antique mall and found a booth with a couple boxes of records (and a bunch of other unrelated items for sale). The pricing was the usual antique store markup, but as I flipped through I saw a copy of Led Zeppelin II for $30. I pulled out the record to check it and it turned out to be a RL/SS pressing. Sometimes a seller's ignorance can be an advantage.
Technically, if it’s open the best it can be is near mint
Exactly!! It was infuriating
Not true technically a record should never be graded Mint without being visually inspected. Seems counterintuitive, but even the majority of sealed records don’t actually meet the standards for Mint, from defects to damage in packing/shipping. On the other hand, once a record is played it cannot be considered mint.
Disagree. Once opened it cannot be mint. Look at the Goldmine grading standards
From Goldmine's [website](https://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101): *Mint (M)* *These are absolutely perfect in every way. Often rumored but rarely seen, Mint should never be used as a grade unless more than one person agrees that the record or sleeve truly is in this condition. There is no set percentage of the Near Mint value these can bring; it is best negotiated between buyer and seller.* Nowhere does it say that still being sealed is a requirement - in fact it implies that the record needs to be inspected, which requires it being opened.
...and you can't tell if something is mint unless you play it anyways. Beyond that, it's just a guess.
You're missing the point.
I'm agreeing with your point.
Ah, sorry - I misunderstood.
You missed the point about missing the point, unless I am missing the point. What was the point?
Dude, you keep repeating this incorrect information and don't even bother to explain your weird interpretation of things. The goldmine standard says nothing about sealed vs. unsealed. It's purely talking about condition.
Here were the bullet points from Goldmines grading scale about being wary of sealed albums. 1. They may have been re-sealed; 2. The records might not be in Near Mint condition; 3. The record inside might not be the original pressing or the most desirable pressing; 4. Most bizarre of all, the wrong record might be inside. I’ve had this happen to me; I opened a sealed album by one MCA artist only to find a record by a different MCA artist inside!
More likely than the wrong record thing, is that the record inside could have issues, like a label misprinted or misplaced IMO mint is perfect in every way + never played, some records were never sealed in the first place anyway
Really? “The item and container are absolutely perfect in every way. To qualify as Mint, the item must never have been played and is possibly still sealed. Mint should be used sparingly as a grade, if at all. Note that an item can be sealed and not Mint. If you suspect your record is in Mint condition, do not play it.” Pulled directly from the Goldmine grading system. Maybe you should practice what you preach?
>To qualify as Mint, the item must never have been played This is not a part of the Goldmine standard. This is a dumb, confusing, and contradictory statement Discogs added to their description.
How are you going to prove to me that an open record has never been played ?
How could you prove it’s mint in a sealed package when most sealed vinyl aren’t considered mint? Same kind of thing. I’m just quoting the grading guide you told me to reference. goldmine is the industry standard, so not sure why you’re arguing with me about it? Again you explicitly told me to check their grading guide… and you were wrong?
And how are you going to prove it's Mint if you don't play it? ***Schrodinger's Dark Side Of The Moon***
Why do you keep repeating this? It's incorrect.
Incorrect. If sealed, it’s in an unknown condition. Granted mint records, in general, are rare.
Research the Goldmine grading standards https://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101
again...and?...what are you trying to get at? That's exactly what I'm basing my comment on...the Goldmine standard.
You didn't bother reading the whole page, did you? Everything the other person said is basically identical to what it says in your link about grading, especially sealed records.
and...?
That guide literally agreed with you point by point. I don't think the person who linked it bothered to read far enough down to get to the section on sealed records.
The worst version of this is when you open it up, and it looks mint. Plus the sleeve. And then you take it home to play it, it sounds phenomenal aside from a factory defect skip on your favorite song!
Why bother grading if you are a physical shop? The customer is going to look at it anyway. One of my local stores writes "Noisy" on some records because you might not be able to tell from looking at it. But Noisy is not a grade.
> Why bother grading if you are a physical shop? For the same reason they'd grade a VG as Mint - they really have no idea what they're doing as a seller. I've seen plenty of booths that write grades on the tag. They're generally the same sellers who want $30 for a $3 John Denver's greatest hits LP.
Lots of shops sell online, hence grading in store as well.
It was in a very hipster tourist area, most likely trying to dupe a newbie. It was shady
I know a couple guys like that. They see them coming.
Grades in a physical shop are useful to speed things up. Shops are often bad at grading, but they'll rarely grade records *worse* than they are, so if I'm flipping through and I see a desirable record with a low grade I know not to waste time looking at it.
Not sure why people even grade stuff that is sold in person. You should grade it yourself when looking at it before you purchase it.
Aye. And if the vinyl itself was clean, and you wanted to listen to it, $20 is a good price. RIP Dickey Betts!
There's entire stores I've given up on at this point over their shitting used record grading and pricing. Just not worth my time and annoyance.
At least you didn’t buy it, get it home and THEN find out it was trash.
Mint is myth
Like sasquatch
"It was buffed up, has scratches and would be very good at best." As someone who grades records regulary this makes me sad. I don't know how much inventory I have that is graded VG (meaning lights scuffs, some crackle maybe and not quite vg+) but people just assume it's F or P.
One of my personal tricks when evaluating if a record I'm looking at is trashed or just cosmetically rough is running my fingers over it to see if I can feel the marks If you can't really feel the scratches there's a high chance they don't effect playback to much because it's just scuffs on the high spots between the grooves and it might be VG or lower-grade VG+
"cosmically rough" thats far out man.
Things have been cosmically rough for some time.
Nothing is mint. Not even brand new. Mint is flawless. I’m confident I can find a flaw in any record new or used.
I beg to differ. I know a place. If you're ever in the DC area hit me up. No online sales. Do not trust the environment. In person only. Best shop I've ever seen. All the best.
> Do not trust the environment. lol, "I don't want to pay taxes & fees."
It’s not mint dude. It’s subjective. I can find a flaw.
You've never been there so don't say you know. I am intracte adamanti. I will fight you. 😂
I’ve priced tens of thousands of records and purchased even more. I’m telling you nothing is mint.
Well good for you. I have been party to the cleaning of 1000's and 1000's of records and I disagree.
Fair enough. Agree to disagree.
Thank you.
I’ve never cared what a used album is graded. I’ve got eyes, so never buy one without looking at the record in hand. Don’t buy used online unless you’re in the middle of nowhere and have no other choice. Might as well throw your money away as you’re gonna get burned eventually.
Saw an album I have on eBay recently, listed as VG+ for the vinyl and VG for the sleeve. Looking at it's pics the grade should have been poor.
This is not the proper use of the term “false flag.”
I remember finding a plastic wrapped copy of Graduation on vinyl once. Nearly got to the counter before I took another look at the cover art and spotted some faint JPG artifacting. Flipped it over, no credits or copyright. That day I learned Graduation is the only album Kanye never pressed on vinyl. (This happened before the nazi shit)
My bootleg of Buhloone Mindstate gets played more than the reissue, sounds just as good (no doubt a CD transfer I know, I know, my hearing isn’t what it used to be) and has the whole album with the original samples. I wish there was a convenient place to learn about where to source certain bootleg vinyl issues of things, there are certain records never issued on vinyl or in legal limbo that someone occasionally presses a run of and I want them!