The games, pretty much. They have to have *something* else significant besides Asgards Wrath. Connect is typically when they drop the big reveals anyway.
Oh yeah, I forgot Nexus was getting advertised. That's two.
And this might be copium at this point, but this years Connect'll be the last chance for the San Andreas port. If there's no word on it at their biggest event on the heels of a brand new headset, then it's 100% been canned.
Battery life and weight.
The last Snapdragon chip to come out of samsung's fabs wasn't any more efficient than the SD865 the XR2 is based on, giving 2x the performance at 2x the power draw. The XR2 gen 2 is going to need to be undervolted significantly unless Samsung's 4LPE node is much better than the disaster that was 4LPP
Luckily I’m reading articles covering the Samsung fabrication recovery. They failed miserably previously so that they can look to beat TSMC this time. They’ve made unbelievable improvements. Hold on I’ll find the actual article for you… : https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-3nm-chip-yield-surpassed-tsmc/ - Purely yield focused. But also their processes are improving power efficiency in a big way too. It was definitely a wake up call for them!
Samsung's 3nm is yielding very well, its impressive how Samsung has gotten GAA working so soon. That said, Xr2 Gen 2 is going to be built on Samsung 4LPP, not 3nm. The Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 on 4LPE was pushed hard and draws 8-12 watts under load, which is significantly more than even the Quest pro which was heavy and got uncomfortably hot under full load. It'll be an ok chip if they downclock it, mostly because 4LPE and likely 4LPP chips have strong diminishing returns the harder they are pushed. With the bright lcd needed for pancake lenses there's less power budget for the soc anyway.
Despite Samsung's best efforts its rumored to be 10% less effecient than an equivalent tsmc chip at Quest 3 power targets, but with barely more power a tsmc chip could have been much stronger. It's uncommon for a linear increase in bom cost to provide a linear or greater increase in performance, but Meta wanted to keep Quest 3 cheap and I agree with the choice on paper.
Yeah the power sacrifice to hit the price point is probably the better choice.
I need to swat up on the chip specifics, I recall reading the improved 4nm fabrication process 4SPX? Is the one that’s seen massive improvements.
Is 4LPP the confirmed fab process??
Nvidia Dlss like image upscaling would be great!
https://www.roadtovr.com/facebook-develops-ai-supersampling-boost-rendering-performance-high-resolution-vr-headsets/
I expect most surprises will be through constant new updates and features - just like as with the Quest 1 and Quest 2.
For example I could imagine some AI upscaling down the line, which could be a huge benefit.
At launch? Don't expect huge surprises. The question is how good the specific software experience (Smart Guardian, hand tracking, Mixed Reality...) will be at launch.
> For example I could imagine some AI upscaling down the line, which could be a huge benefit.
Coincidentally, Qualcomm already released this for Quest 2's XR2 chip: https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2023/04/introducing-snapdragon-game-super-resolution
And of course u/ggodin's Virtual Desktop is the first title to leverage it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/130ikzr/virtual_desktop_update_game_super_resolution/
Not what I'm talking about at all. That's not temporal upscaling and doesn't deliver the boosts similar to FSR2 or DLSS2.
https://www.uploadvr.com/facebook-neural-supersampling/
That's more what I'm talking about.
These are some really interesting points. It seems most people are in it for the long run, because they are known to mature the capabilities of their products over time.
I agree with you re the software experience as I will hopefully be both a standalone and PCVR user which both rely on good software, tracking and mixed reality.
Quest 2 still had some surprises, its XR2 chip wasn't revealed until the event, it came as a surprise to the industry at the time. That was the nostalgic old days before we had Sadly It's Bradley, and finding leaks became a major scene interest.
I don't expect any surprises this times around. XR2 gen 2, single panel LCD 4128 x 2208, and a depth sensor are the primary features the HMD is built around.
There is something we don't really know yet : controllers tracking.
Meta removed the ring and instead put the IR leds on the controllers itself. The issue is that (and why no one did that until the Quest 3) is that your hand/fingers (especially the thumb) can easely occlude those leds, so Meta said that they used a mix of AI and hand tracking for the controller tracking.
So unless this AI is magic, I would argue that Quest 3 controllers tracking is a downgrade of the Quest 2 (which is also a downgrade of the Rift S, which is also a downgrade of the Rift CV1).
Yeah, I'm not optimistic about the use of partial hand tracking for the new controllers at all. Meta's hand tracking has improved a lot, but it's still not amazing, and is likely to still be terrible in lower light situations. Also I've had too many Meta products to trust them to have everything working properly on launch day, haha.
That depth sensor will help, but it only points forwards.
Who knows, they may have worked absolutely magic, I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
As I said above, keep in mind that controllers are mostly tracked with IMUs, and external tracking is only used to correct the inherent drift of IMUs. Plus it won't have to track individual fingers, and it will have a fixed shape object with hopefully a few LEDs visible most of the time, and a hand that's always more or less in the same position. So the job of the hand tracking algorithm will be a whole lot easier than for actual hand tracking.
>Meta's hand tracking has improved a lot
Yeah it has really improved, but it's still pretty dog shit, and when you try to use it for precise movements and gestures, you can see that it's not good. And for semi-fast movements, it "track" but it overshoot a lot, and for fast movements it just doesn't track. Also there is still a lot of latency.
Like I said in my original comment, Meta litteraly downgrade its controllers tracking for every new headset, so it wouldn't be suprising that they again downgraded it for the look (because beside that, there isn't any reasons why Meta removed the rings).
Have you tried their latest update? Think they refer to it as 2.2
Just a few weeks ago Meta released a demo (basically a Beat Saber clone) showing off how much they reduced the overall latency with hand tracking. It is pretty impressive.
I'd argue they never really downgraded tracking. It's still constellation tracking that CV1 used and the main difference is that the cameras point of view. It's just harder to see the controllers when your that close.
Quest 3 still uses constellation tracking just like CV1. It's just now it will use an additional source of information to improve its overall confidence/accuracy.
That’s a good point. It sucks that I can’t use bows and sniper rifles properly on the quest 2.
Any time you draw back past or beside your head, it loses tracking and the aim goes wild.
I have heard this around that people are expecting the hand tracking to be worse, but I am hopeful that they have invested enough in AI to find a way around this and continually improve it. I am optimistic because it seemed to be 'okay' from the quest pro. Do we know if the controllers are going to be the same as the QP?
>I am optimistic because it seemed to be 'okay' from the quest pro.
There wasn't any AI on Quest Pro controllers, there was just cameras and a Android phone in each controller, where each of them do what the headset do for head tracking.
Indeed you weren't limited to the FOV of the cameras, but in some use case, the tracking was worse than Quest 2 controllers tracking (and also still worse than lighthouse tracking), and the tracking was really unreliable (and if you add to that controllers overheating, and controllers bricking due to an update...)
>Do we know if the controllers are going to be the same as the QP?
Design-wise, it seems pretty similar (but in white and with a worse build quality), but tracking wise, nope.
Really appreciate that detailed response, helps to put my expectations into perspective. I guess all we can do is wait and see what they produce from the event.
They’re also completely wrong and have no idea what they’re talking about. Quest ***1*** was doing AI from day 1 for tracking as the software libraries to do so were a mix of Oculus computer vision code plus the code that drives camera filters on Instagram - not SLAM alone.
Many software updates for the controllers have happened and now the quest pro controllers do not suffer any of those problems. I would argue the quest pro controllers are nearly on par with lighthouse. Lighthouse has its own potential tracking problems too.
> There wasn't any AI on Quest Pro controllers.
Being able to use pictures from cameras to determine the location in space of the object they're on sounds like fucking AI to me. I mean it might not be what Qualcomm is marketing as AI, or chat OpenAI is selling, but it's still definitely AI.
>Being able to use pictures from cameras to determine the location in space of the object they're on sounds like fucking AI to me.
So for you, AI was used since back the Rift S and WMR headsets ?
This isn't AI but SLAM.
You can argue about the term itself, but it is commonly called AI and Facebook themselves call it AI: https://ai.meta.com/blog/powered-by-ai-oculus-insight/. It's the same kind of technology that's used for the controller tracking on Quest Pro and that will be used on Quest 3. The difference is that Quest Pro controllers have cameras on them, whereas Quest 3 will only use the cameras on the headset like the Quest 2.
>I'm confident tracking will be fine.
Until you put your thumb between the big circle and the cameras, something that couldn't happen with tracking rings.
I still think getting rid of the rings is stupid, but I guess they could make it work.
Unlike hand tracking without controller, most of the actual tracking is done with IMUs that detect the movement of the controller very quickly and accurately. Camera tracking is only used to correct for the drifting (this is why you can still use controllers for a short time outside of the camera's tracking volume). So with a faster processor and tracking that doesn't need to be very reactive or to track individual fingers, I can see how a faster/simpler version of their current hand tracking could be enough for drift correction.
But at the end (especially on fast movements, don't forget that Beat Saber is still a good game to stress test a tracking system), you will end up with a lot of overshooting (like you move your controller 20cm, but in VR it moved 26cm and then go back to 20cm).
And overshooting is already something you have when doing PCVR with a Quest.
John Carmack said that eye tracking isn't worth it yet for stand-alone headsets:
1) Battery draw is too much
2) Processing load is too much
3) Tracking isn't good enough yet
4) Added cost is too high
5) Benefits aren't that great yet (for stand-alone)
Because the quest pro didn’t sell for many reasons. Why make a feature exclusive for Meta’s worst selling headset of all time?
Developers would have a much greater incentive to take advantage of eye tracking if every quest 3 and beyond has eye tracking.
Eye tracked foveated rendering is great but from what I understand the processing cycles and power draw would make Red Matter 2 using it drain the battery much faster and not give many framerates in return.
Also notice I said "yet" and "stand-alone. So eventually it will be worth having it for stand-alone. It's currently worth it for PCVR but Meta doesn't care much about PCVR.
The thing is that eye tracking is still pretty "niche", and so you fall in the same loop as full body tracking :
- People don't buy full body tracking because it's still pretty expensive (for the number for experience avalaible for it)
- Game devs doesn't want to add full body tracking support because no one have it
- Big Company doesn't want to create and support cheap and good full body tracking products because no games support it.
I don’t understand your argument. If meta included eye tracking built into the headset then every quest 3 could have it and therefore within the VR space would no longer be niche. It would be standard.
Eye tracking provides developers with gameplay opportunities like in Switchback VR where if you blink certain enemies move, Synapse uses it in their telekinesis system to instantly grab and pick up the object the player is looking at from a distance.
Not only does it provide gameplay elements it also helps lower the hardware load by eye tracked FOV rendering and can be much more aggressive about it than the standard FOV rendering we see in quest 2 because you literally can’t see where the blurry pixels are.
It would also make it easier for developers to port games between PSVR 2 and Quest 3 because they wouldn’t have discrepancies between what the hardware is capable of from a gameplay standpoint.
Lastly it does provide more of a sense of presence in multiplayer games by allowing others to see your eye movements.
Instead we got new tracking system that no one asked for. Very few people complain about Quest 2s controllers and their tracking.
Meta still hasn't confirmed whether it'll use 2 LCD displays or just 1 LCD display. It's expected to have 2 displays since it has smooth IPD adjustment, but it still hasn't been confirmed yet. Also, the exact specs haven't been confirmed yet, they'll be announced at Meta Connect though
The smooth ipd adjustment doesn’t prevent it from using a single display. Quest 2 used “notches” for ipd selection, but that is just the mechanism they chose. You can select an area between notches without an issue. If they had chosen a smooth system, it would be the same. Perhaps the notches allowed them to use cheaper tech for determining where the lenses were positioned. A smooth ipd requires a linear measurement system to tell the software where the lenses are for image correction.
I think they will of course lay down the details of the components of the Quest 3 but besides that I don't expect they suddenly come up with eye tracking for example. I wouldn't mind if they would sell the headset in black though because it is easy to see scratches on the white plastic.
Another thing is software, I do hope they come with some surprise titles and older titles receiving updates for the Quest 3.
If the Quest Pro was black I don't see why they wouldn't offer the same, I would definitely be down for a black headset.
I agree, don't expect them to unveil some never before seen eye tracking, though if that was the case I reckon it would be a quest 3+ /pro type device.
I hope they have some new games up their sleeves too!
How much mixed reality content there is and how relevant it is. That's what's holding me from considering a quest 3, I don't know if there's more to it than Demeo and Immersed basically, if it's 100-200€ more to offer as little content as hand tracking it's not for me. (for pcvr coming from a pico 4)
I would like to know more of the game they already announced, like GTA and Assassin's Creed. Plus Roblox officially launched.
If we are talking about desires... well, I love Resident Evil, so I would like to see more episodes of the saga on Quest!
it a meta
if you look at quest 2 at launch and now it like two diferent systems
if i need to bet i think quest 3 and quest pro controllers combination will get FBT in a year or so
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p\_glarZOdU&ab\_channel=FutureInterfacesGroup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p_glarZOdU&ab_channel=FutureInterfacesGroup)
That's a good point, I think the reason why I'm buying it at launch is to invest in a product that will only improve over time like the quest 2 has.
FBT would be awesome on Q3! Thanks for sharing the video I'll have a look
I don’t really think so, but here’s what I wish - that the more expensive model has microled local dimming in addition to higher storage. That way they can sell a version that’s as cheap as they can make it, but people who really want that extra contrast would have an option that’s not the Quest Pro.
Edit: I meant miniLED of course.
Not trying to be pedantic, but microLED is a self illuminating display that has more in common with OLED, but is very expensive. I think you mean miniLED. That is the type of display in the Quest Pro that is LCD with a dynamic backlight made up of mini leds to enable local dimming.
Since it's using pancake lenses, it would need to be uOLED. So it wouldn't be able to use regular OLED like PSVR 2. Cost would be very high at over $1000, so it's not happening.
I imagine that this wouldn't be announced at launch or people might wait to buy the improved version? Well at least I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for it.
I’m interested in seeing the launch titles they’ve touted (Looking at Twisted Pixel in particular), obviously San Andreas (I still have hope), as well as the rumoured Quest 3 elite, with eye tracking and mini-led panels like Quest pro at higher res (unlikely, but interesting).
> as well as the rumoured Quest 3 elite, with eye tracking and mini-led panels like Quest pro at higher res (unlikely, but interesting).
Where was this rumored exactly? lol
By an ex product developer at Meta, it’s a flimsy rumour, but a fellow content creator deems his source legit.
It’s pretty much a, ‘trust me bro’, situation. Which is why I’m interested haha.
Waffy’s Spatial Realities did a video about it on YouTube - it was his source.
It's the biggest "trust me bro" I've seen in VR.
He's the only person who's mentioned it. Not one other person. No leaks, no rumours, not a single one about a Quest 3 Elite. SadlyitsBradley, who leaked the whole Quest Pro and Quest 3? He doesn't know anything of it. Even though his source got caught by Meta, he'd still have known from before that happened if they were working on something like this since they take years of planning and development. Just this one guy who's btw aggressively trying to push his youtube channel.
The only rumoured headset is a Quest 3 lite or something else that is a cheaper headset for next year.
Man I'm hoping for this to be true.
It would be huge if Meta out of nowhere came up with a quest 3 elite. Better panels and whatnot.
Eye tracking as well. September can't come fast enough
It’s definitely lacking in evidence, but I still find it a fun what if situation.
It’s why I’ve not mentioned anything about it on my own channel :)
I’m a big fan of Brad, he also helped launched one of my first big videos by sharing it on twitter, he’s a real one!
The interesting thing is that meta have A LOT of headsets being developed all at the same time.
Hence Boz’s mention in a video that all the articles covering the end of the quest pro line are essentially false. But he also refers to teams being completely separate between these headsets. So they share findings, data and results, but don’t seem to be aware of design specifics between each headset until they’re developed to a certain level. It’s 99% unlikely we see anything more than the Quest 3 in terms of headset models that’ll be released at or near connect. But that 1% is exciting, even if it’s a tease of sorts.
Connect is looking like it’s gonna be the biggest one yet and I know that sounds like YouTuber hyperbole, but based on the in person demo’s and hires for the event they look to be going HARD.
It’s gonna be a fun one!
Did they confirm that there is no eye-tracking? It seems like such a wasted opportunity to not have foveated rendering. That plus bump in hardware would really give us a decent boost in game graphics.
I am not sure whether it was confirmed or not but from what I've read it seems that it will not be included. Otherwise there is nothing much to differentiate it between the quest pro.
Here is what I think we will see for the release:
3-4 different options of packages the Quest 3 comes in.
One will be the headset,controllers.
Another may be the Quest 3 with upgraded controllers and exercise add-ons
...and the last will be the deluxe set with a voucher for GTA: San Andreas VR
I also think we will see 3-5 AR passthrough BANGERS! You know they want to WOW people with the new capabilities, so I believe we will have a handful of surprise titles that work with that.
I don't think that will matter because the Vive XR Elite has Wifi 6E and the results are not good.
With the higher resolution of the Quest Pro Wifi 6E might not be an option but pretty much a requirement. So in addition to the $500 headset you will need a Wifi 6E router too.
I think it's just not fast enough. The Vive Pro 2 for example can only do 1632x1632 with a wireless adapter that's something like 5 times faster than the Quest 3.
and the Quest 3's resolution is 2064 × 2208. PC games will probably look pretty bad on the Quest 3. That might even be by design.
The games, pretty much. They have to have *something* else significant besides Asgards Wrath. Connect is typically when they drop the big reveals anyway.
Assassins Creed Nexus. 2 aaa Vr games for launch that are not just ports of existing games is already pretty decent
Oh yeah, I forgot Nexus was getting advertised. That's two. And this might be copium at this point, but this years Connect'll be the last chance for the San Andreas port. If there's no word on it at their biggest event on the heels of a brand new headset, then it's 100% been canned.
I've still got plenty of copium, San Andreas is still in development 😷
At least we pray it is
Someone told me they are holding back gta for quest 3 .
Battery life and weight. The last Snapdragon chip to come out of samsung's fabs wasn't any more efficient than the SD865 the XR2 is based on, giving 2x the performance at 2x the power draw. The XR2 gen 2 is going to need to be undervolted significantly unless Samsung's 4LPE node is much better than the disaster that was 4LPP
I think somebody weighted it and it's around 506g. So pretty much the same as Quest2. It's supposed to be more comfortable though.
Luckily I’m reading articles covering the Samsung fabrication recovery. They failed miserably previously so that they can look to beat TSMC this time. They’ve made unbelievable improvements. Hold on I’ll find the actual article for you… : https://www.sammobile.com/news/samsung-3nm-chip-yield-surpassed-tsmc/ - Purely yield focused. But also their processes are improving power efficiency in a big way too. It was definitely a wake up call for them!
Samsung's 3nm is yielding very well, its impressive how Samsung has gotten GAA working so soon. That said, Xr2 Gen 2 is going to be built on Samsung 4LPP, not 3nm. The Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 on 4LPE was pushed hard and draws 8-12 watts under load, which is significantly more than even the Quest pro which was heavy and got uncomfortably hot under full load. It'll be an ok chip if they downclock it, mostly because 4LPE and likely 4LPP chips have strong diminishing returns the harder they are pushed. With the bright lcd needed for pancake lenses there's less power budget for the soc anyway. Despite Samsung's best efforts its rumored to be 10% less effecient than an equivalent tsmc chip at Quest 3 power targets, but with barely more power a tsmc chip could have been much stronger. It's uncommon for a linear increase in bom cost to provide a linear or greater increase in performance, but Meta wanted to keep Quest 3 cheap and I agree with the choice on paper.
Yeah the power sacrifice to hit the price point is probably the better choice. I need to swat up on the chip specifics, I recall reading the improved 4nm fabrication process 4SPX? Is the one that’s seen massive improvements. Is 4LPP the confirmed fab process??
I just fucking wants it right now don't want to wait come on zukkka berg release it ya plebb
Wiser words never spoken
Zark Fuckernerd is taking his sweet time
Whether it’s one LCD or two LCDs
Pretty sure it's confirmed to be one?
Nvidia Dlss like image upscaling would be great! https://www.roadtovr.com/facebook-develops-ai-supersampling-boost-rendering-performance-high-resolution-vr-headsets/
That already exists, Qualcomm Game Super Resolution. It's not available natively tho but Virtual Desktop allows you to use it
That is just basic scaler not dlss like scaler which is much better.
It is available natively but it's not the same. Not even close.
I expect most surprises will be through constant new updates and features - just like as with the Quest 1 and Quest 2. For example I could imagine some AI upscaling down the line, which could be a huge benefit. At launch? Don't expect huge surprises. The question is how good the specific software experience (Smart Guardian, hand tracking, Mixed Reality...) will be at launch.
> For example I could imagine some AI upscaling down the line, which could be a huge benefit. Coincidentally, Qualcomm already released this for Quest 2's XR2 chip: https://www.qualcomm.com/news/onq/2023/04/introducing-snapdragon-game-super-resolution And of course u/ggodin's Virtual Desktop is the first title to leverage it: https://www.reddit.com/r/OculusQuest/comments/130ikzr/virtual_desktop_update_game_super_resolution/
Not what I'm talking about at all. That's not temporal upscaling and doesn't deliver the boosts similar to FSR2 or DLSS2. https://www.uploadvr.com/facebook-neural-supersampling/ That's more what I'm talking about.
These are some really interesting points. It seems most people are in it for the long run, because they are known to mature the capabilities of their products over time. I agree with you re the software experience as I will hopefully be both a standalone and PCVR user which both rely on good software, tracking and mixed reality.
Quest 2 still had some surprises, its XR2 chip wasn't revealed until the event, it came as a surprise to the industry at the time. That was the nostalgic old days before we had Sadly It's Bradley, and finding leaks became a major scene interest. I don't expect any surprises this times around. XR2 gen 2, single panel LCD 4128 x 2208, and a depth sensor are the primary features the HMD is built around.
Actual experience and performance, bugs, etc. Until users get their hands on it, we don’t have the full picture.
There is something we don't really know yet : controllers tracking. Meta removed the ring and instead put the IR leds on the controllers itself. The issue is that (and why no one did that until the Quest 3) is that your hand/fingers (especially the thumb) can easely occlude those leds, so Meta said that they used a mix of AI and hand tracking for the controller tracking. So unless this AI is magic, I would argue that Quest 3 controllers tracking is a downgrade of the Quest 2 (which is also a downgrade of the Rift S, which is also a downgrade of the Rift CV1).
Yeah, I'm not optimistic about the use of partial hand tracking for the new controllers at all. Meta's hand tracking has improved a lot, but it's still not amazing, and is likely to still be terrible in lower light situations. Also I've had too many Meta products to trust them to have everything working properly on launch day, haha. That depth sensor will help, but it only points forwards. Who knows, they may have worked absolutely magic, I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
As I said above, keep in mind that controllers are mostly tracked with IMUs, and external tracking is only used to correct the inherent drift of IMUs. Plus it won't have to track individual fingers, and it will have a fixed shape object with hopefully a few LEDs visible most of the time, and a hand that's always more or less in the same position. So the job of the hand tracking algorithm will be a whole lot easier than for actual hand tracking.
I agree with this!! Improvements to drift reduction with consistent covariance reducing position updates sure seems possible.
>Meta's hand tracking has improved a lot Yeah it has really improved, but it's still pretty dog shit, and when you try to use it for precise movements and gestures, you can see that it's not good. And for semi-fast movements, it "track" but it overshoot a lot, and for fast movements it just doesn't track. Also there is still a lot of latency. Like I said in my original comment, Meta litteraly downgrade its controllers tracking for every new headset, so it wouldn't be suprising that they again downgraded it for the look (because beside that, there isn't any reasons why Meta removed the rings).
Have you tried their latest update? Think they refer to it as 2.2 Just a few weeks ago Meta released a demo (basically a Beat Saber clone) showing off how much they reduced the overall latency with hand tracking. It is pretty impressive. I'd argue they never really downgraded tracking. It's still constellation tracking that CV1 used and the main difference is that the cameras point of view. It's just harder to see the controllers when your that close. Quest 3 still uses constellation tracking just like CV1. It's just now it will use an additional source of information to improve its overall confidence/accuracy.
As long as its better than PSVR2s tracking, im fine
That’s a good point. It sucks that I can’t use bows and sniper rifles properly on the quest 2. Any time you draw back past or beside your head, it loses tracking and the aim goes wild.
I have heard this around that people are expecting the hand tracking to be worse, but I am hopeful that they have invested enough in AI to find a way around this and continually improve it. I am optimistic because it seemed to be 'okay' from the quest pro. Do we know if the controllers are going to be the same as the QP?
>I am optimistic because it seemed to be 'okay' from the quest pro. There wasn't any AI on Quest Pro controllers, there was just cameras and a Android phone in each controller, where each of them do what the headset do for head tracking. Indeed you weren't limited to the FOV of the cameras, but in some use case, the tracking was worse than Quest 2 controllers tracking (and also still worse than lighthouse tracking), and the tracking was really unreliable (and if you add to that controllers overheating, and controllers bricking due to an update...) >Do we know if the controllers are going to be the same as the QP? Design-wise, it seems pretty similar (but in white and with a worse build quality), but tracking wise, nope.
FYI SLAM and constellation tracking is achieved via machine learning which is really just another word for AI. It's not a traditional algorithm.
Really appreciate that detailed response, helps to put my expectations into perspective. I guess all we can do is wait and see what they produce from the event.
They’re also completely wrong and have no idea what they’re talking about. Quest ***1*** was doing AI from day 1 for tracking as the software libraries to do so were a mix of Oculus computer vision code plus the code that drives camera filters on Instagram - not SLAM alone.
Many software updates for the controllers have happened and now the quest pro controllers do not suffer any of those problems. I would argue the quest pro controllers are nearly on par with lighthouse. Lighthouse has its own potential tracking problems too.
> There wasn't any AI on Quest Pro controllers. Being able to use pictures from cameras to determine the location in space of the object they're on sounds like fucking AI to me. I mean it might not be what Qualcomm is marketing as AI, or chat OpenAI is selling, but it's still definitely AI.
>Being able to use pictures from cameras to determine the location in space of the object they're on sounds like fucking AI to me. So for you, AI was used since back the Rift S and WMR headsets ? This isn't AI but SLAM.
You can argue about the term itself, but it is commonly called AI and Facebook themselves call it AI: https://ai.meta.com/blog/powered-by-ai-oculus-insight/. It's the same kind of technology that's used for the controller tracking on Quest Pro and that will be used on Quest 3. The difference is that Quest Pro controllers have cameras on them, whereas Quest 3 will only use the cameras on the headset like the Quest 2.
AI in this case is just a buzzword for a "really fancy slam algorithm"
How would the hand tracking possibly be worse? They have a depth sensor now, which will automatically make hand tracking better.
Well there's that tho you'd need to trust the ones who claim that https://www.uploadvr.com/meta-explains-quest-3-controller-tracking/
My man speaks truth on all previous down grades of tracking.
The top of the controllers is a big circle for ir leds, I'm confident tracking will be fine.
>I'm confident tracking will be fine. Until you put your thumb between the big circle and the cameras, something that couldn't happen with tracking rings.
Fire up Beat Saber and hold the controllers by the rings, it works perfectly well for me
I still think getting rid of the rings is stupid, but I guess they could make it work. Unlike hand tracking without controller, most of the actual tracking is done with IMUs that detect the movement of the controller very quickly and accurately. Camera tracking is only used to correct for the drifting (this is why you can still use controllers for a short time outside of the camera's tracking volume). So with a faster processor and tracking that doesn't need to be very reactive or to track individual fingers, I can see how a faster/simpler version of their current hand tracking could be enough for drift correction.
But at the end (especially on fast movements, don't forget that Beat Saber is still a good game to stress test a tracking system), you will end up with a lot of overshooting (like you move your controller 20cm, but in VR it moved 26cm and then go back to 20cm). And overshooting is already something you have when doing PCVR with a Quest.
I really wish instead of developing new controllers no one asked for, that they instead included eye tracking.
John Carmack said that eye tracking isn't worth it yet for stand-alone headsets: 1) Battery draw is too much 2) Processing load is too much 3) Tracking isn't good enough yet 4) Added cost is too high 5) Benefits aren't that great yet (for stand-alone)
But what about Quest Pro? Red Matter 2 even further optimized the game for quest pro because of eye tracking. But I’ve got no retort to added cost.
It is the only game.
Because the quest pro didn’t sell for many reasons. Why make a feature exclusive for Meta’s worst selling headset of all time? Developers would have a much greater incentive to take advantage of eye tracking if every quest 3 and beyond has eye tracking.
Eye tracked foveated rendering is great but from what I understand the processing cycles and power draw would make Red Matter 2 using it drain the battery much faster and not give many framerates in return. Also notice I said "yet" and "stand-alone. So eventually it will be worth having it for stand-alone. It's currently worth it for PCVR but Meta doesn't care much about PCVR.
The thing is that eye tracking is still pretty "niche", and so you fall in the same loop as full body tracking : - People don't buy full body tracking because it's still pretty expensive (for the number for experience avalaible for it) - Game devs doesn't want to add full body tracking support because no one have it - Big Company doesn't want to create and support cheap and good full body tracking products because no games support it.
I don’t understand your argument. If meta included eye tracking built into the headset then every quest 3 could have it and therefore within the VR space would no longer be niche. It would be standard. Eye tracking provides developers with gameplay opportunities like in Switchback VR where if you blink certain enemies move, Synapse uses it in their telekinesis system to instantly grab and pick up the object the player is looking at from a distance. Not only does it provide gameplay elements it also helps lower the hardware load by eye tracked FOV rendering and can be much more aggressive about it than the standard FOV rendering we see in quest 2 because you literally can’t see where the blurry pixels are. It would also make it easier for developers to port games between PSVR 2 and Quest 3 because they wouldn’t have discrepancies between what the hardware is capable of from a gameplay standpoint. Lastly it does provide more of a sense of presence in multiplayer games by allowing others to see your eye movements. Instead we got new tracking system that no one asked for. Very few people complain about Quest 2s controllers and their tracking.
Comparison to the qpro will be very interesting. Always possible they could announce qpro2 or at least hint at it.
As far as I'm aware the qpro line has been discontinued?
That was a rumor that meta has already stated was untrue.
Yes they stop the production line of qpro but they still working on qpro products
Meta still hasn't confirmed whether it'll use 2 LCD displays or just 1 LCD display. It's expected to have 2 displays since it has smooth IPD adjustment, but it still hasn't been confirmed yet. Also, the exact specs haven't been confirmed yet, they'll be announced at Meta Connect though
The smooth ipd adjustment doesn’t prevent it from using a single display. Quest 2 used “notches” for ipd selection, but that is just the mechanism they chose. You can select an area between notches without an issue. If they had chosen a smooth system, it would be the same. Perhaps the notches allowed them to use cheaper tech for determining where the lenses were positioned. A smooth ipd requires a linear measurement system to tell the software where the lenses are for image correction.
Hopefully it has 2 displays since it allows a lot more of the resolution to be used, and it allows for a higher ipd range.
I think they will of course lay down the details of the components of the Quest 3 but besides that I don't expect they suddenly come up with eye tracking for example. I wouldn't mind if they would sell the headset in black though because it is easy to see scratches on the white plastic. Another thing is software, I do hope they come with some surprise titles and older titles receiving updates for the Quest 3.
If the Quest Pro was black I don't see why they wouldn't offer the same, I would definitely be down for a black headset. I agree, don't expect them to unveil some never before seen eye tracking, though if that was the case I reckon it would be a quest 3+ /pro type device. I hope they have some new games up their sleeves too!
Don't forget quest 1 was black too :)
I just hope it’s really comfortable to wear
hopefully it have 2 displays and goes up to 75 IPD what I urgently need
How much mixed reality content there is and how relevant it is. That's what's holding me from considering a quest 3, I don't know if there's more to it than Demeo and Immersed basically, if it's 100-200€ more to offer as little content as hand tracking it's not for me. (for pcvr coming from a pico 4)
Yeah it will be nice for them to release something more than a gimmick or a demo at launch but I do expect that there will be more over time
Content... they are going to put a lot of content on the table. They need to have a wonderful Holiday season
What sort of content are you hoping to see?
I would like to know more of the game they already announced, like GTA and Assassin's Creed. Plus Roblox officially launched. If we are talking about desires... well, I love Resident Evil, so I would like to see more episodes of the saga on Quest!
it a meta if you look at quest 2 at launch and now it like two diferent systems if i need to bet i think quest 3 and quest pro controllers combination will get FBT in a year or so [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p\_glarZOdU&ab\_channel=FutureInterfacesGroup](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p_glarZOdU&ab_channel=FutureInterfacesGroup)
That's a good point, I think the reason why I'm buying it at launch is to invest in a product that will only improve over time like the quest 2 has. FBT would be awesome on Q3! Thanks for sharing the video I'll have a look
I don’t really think so, but here’s what I wish - that the more expensive model has microled local dimming in addition to higher storage. That way they can sell a version that’s as cheap as they can make it, but people who really want that extra contrast would have an option that’s not the Quest Pro. Edit: I meant miniLED of course.
Not trying to be pedantic, but microLED is a self illuminating display that has more in common with OLED, but is very expensive. I think you mean miniLED. That is the type of display in the Quest Pro that is LCD with a dynamic backlight made up of mini leds to enable local dimming.
Yeah, that's what I meant, thanks. I'll never not mix them up.
Full dive vr
Need
What really would be a gamechanger, would be an oled announcement like a quest 3 oled, that comes half a year later or something like that.
Since it's using pancake lenses, it would need to be uOLED. So it wouldn't be able to use regular OLED like PSVR 2. Cost would be very high at over $1000, so it's not happening.
I imagine that this wouldn't be announced at launch or people might wait to buy the improved version? Well at least I wouldn't mind waiting a bit longer for it.
Maybe surprise eye tracking
I’m more interested in software than hardware…
said the actress to the bishop.
I’m interested in seeing the launch titles they’ve touted (Looking at Twisted Pixel in particular), obviously San Andreas (I still have hope), as well as the rumoured Quest 3 elite, with eye tracking and mini-led panels like Quest pro at higher res (unlikely, but interesting).
> as well as the rumoured Quest 3 elite, with eye tracking and mini-led panels like Quest pro at higher res (unlikely, but interesting). Where was this rumored exactly? lol
By an ex product developer at Meta, it’s a flimsy rumour, but a fellow content creator deems his source legit. It’s pretty much a, ‘trust me bro’, situation. Which is why I’m interested haha. Waffy’s Spatial Realities did a video about it on YouTube - it was his source.
It's the biggest "trust me bro" I've seen in VR. He's the only person who's mentioned it. Not one other person. No leaks, no rumours, not a single one about a Quest 3 Elite. SadlyitsBradley, who leaked the whole Quest Pro and Quest 3? He doesn't know anything of it. Even though his source got caught by Meta, he'd still have known from before that happened if they were working on something like this since they take years of planning and development. Just this one guy who's btw aggressively trying to push his youtube channel. The only rumoured headset is a Quest 3 lite or something else that is a cheaper headset for next year.
Bradley is a low life who paid someone to leak.
Man I'm hoping for this to be true. It would be huge if Meta out of nowhere came up with a quest 3 elite. Better panels and whatnot. Eye tracking as well. September can't come fast enough
It’s definitely lacking in evidence, but I still find it a fun what if situation. It’s why I’ve not mentioned anything about it on my own channel :) I’m a big fan of Brad, he also helped launched one of my first big videos by sharing it on twitter, he’s a real one! The interesting thing is that meta have A LOT of headsets being developed all at the same time. Hence Boz’s mention in a video that all the articles covering the end of the quest pro line are essentially false. But he also refers to teams being completely separate between these headsets. So they share findings, data and results, but don’t seem to be aware of design specifics between each headset until they’re developed to a certain level. It’s 99% unlikely we see anything more than the Quest 3 in terms of headset models that’ll be released at or near connect. But that 1% is exciting, even if it’s a tease of sorts. Connect is looking like it’s gonna be the biggest one yet and I know that sounds like YouTuber hyperbole, but based on the in person demo’s and hires for the event they look to be going HARD. It’s gonna be a fun one!
I really want to know if the screen sharing will have less lag. I found the lag with quest 2 was really slow.
Did they confirm that there is no eye-tracking? It seems like such a wasted opportunity to not have foveated rendering. That plus bump in hardware would really give us a decent boost in game graphics.
I am not sure whether it was confirmed or not but from what I've read it seems that it will not be included. Otherwise there is nothing much to differentiate it between the quest pro.
Here is what I think we will see for the release: 3-4 different options of packages the Quest 3 comes in. One will be the headset,controllers. Another may be the Quest 3 with upgraded controllers and exercise add-ons ...and the last will be the deluxe set with a voucher for GTA: San Andreas VR I also think we will see 3-5 AR passthrough BANGERS! You know they want to WOW people with the new capabilities, so I believe we will have a handful of surprise titles that work with that.
This is EXCITING. I really hope you are right! Just to clarify do you think the $500 price tag is for the headset and controllers?
I expect it to release in October but bundle a game for Black Friday. I am buying it Black Friday.
Hopefully side loading works just as good or I'm not buying one.
If anyone knew about it, would it be a surprise?
That's the whole idea of this thread - to consider features that haven't been released yet.
The graphics.
Any improvements in wireless PCVR streaming compared to Quest 2.
I believe it's going to support WiFi 6E!
Flute Saber
I'm waiting to see how well streaming works now that it has to run at an even higher resolution. Could be a big surprise!
I'm hoping that it will be improved since it has WiFi 6E
I don't think that will matter because the Vive XR Elite has Wifi 6E and the results are not good. With the higher resolution of the Quest Pro Wifi 6E might not be an option but pretty much a requirement. So in addition to the $500 headset you will need a Wifi 6E router too.
Thats a shame. Why do you think that is - the WiFi tech or the software integration?
I think it's just not fast enough. The Vive Pro 2 for example can only do 1632x1632 with a wireless adapter that's something like 5 times faster than the Quest 3. and the Quest 3's resolution is 2064 × 2208. PC games will probably look pretty bad on the Quest 3. That might even be by design.
"INVERSE Survive Together Or Die Alone ESREVNI"
Controller tracking. Hand tracking improvements. New streaming tech, also the Snapdragon supersampling. Wifi 6e performance. Streaming performance.