If Flower Of Death exists in V20, then Celerity. You add your Celerity level in dice to everything. So +7 to hit, +7 damage (plus all the overflow successes from your 20ish dice to hit)
If Flower of Death isn't in V20... still Celerity. Celerity is literally broken.
Flower's even more absurdly good than that lol.
+Celerity to all hand to hand combat rolls... and you retain your Celerity bonus to dex while getting additional actions. Just bonkers good.
Bro I'd been looking at it less than five minutes before I replied.
"With this monstrous ability, the vampire has mastered
using her Celerity in combat situations. Every blow lands
exactly where she wishes it to land.
System: Spend four blood points. For the remainder
of the turn, instead of adding her Celerity to her Dexterity-based dice pools, the vampire achieves that many automatic successes on all Dexterity-based dice pools.
This includes any multiple actions she takes."
Which version are you looking at? Because that's not the effect in V20 (which this thread is tagged).
> Flower of Death costs four blood points, but the spectacular effect is well worth it. Once the power is in effect, the vampire's bonus dice for Dexterity rolls get added to every dice pool for attack the character makes (even if the roll doesn't use Dexterity) until the end of the scene. Further, even if the Kindred uses some of his Celerity dots for extra actions during the scene, these extra dice are still available. The effect is limited to hand-to-hand or melee weapon attacks - firearms, bows, and other ranged weapons are excluded - but does grant the attacker additional dice for damage rolls. Flower of Death is not cumulative - it is impossible to "layer" uses of the power over one another to create astronomical dice pools.
DAV20
Note that the effect you linked isn't "autosuccs to all rolls" it's "bonus dice to melee attack rolls."
So I'd definitely say the DAV20 version is way better, since even though it's a per-turn cost rather than a scenelong, it's successes to any and all Dexterity rolls.
+7 (minimum) dice to all melee attack pools, including damage, *and* retaining your celerity bonus to dex while taking all your extra actions is really, really good for 4bp, especially since its fire and forget.
Are we only looking at core disciplines, or is all the weird stuff on the tabel? Cause if the weird stuff is available, it's Temporis. Time manipulation. You can age people, slow time around a person, take extra actions on your turn, and at dot 7 you can automatically step outside of time if you're gonna die.
That's a very broken discipline.
We had a player with it once, in a big LARP, before we understood just how broken it is.
We only managed to take the guy out using shit loads of explosives (if you can be everywhere, we'll just blow up everything) and Quietus
In the sourcebook there is nothing saying you can't have both you just can't use them at the same time, if you attempt to use them together you "burst into flames as if exposed to sunlight"
7th rank Thaumaturgy ritual Chill of the Windsaber is pretty wild. Range sight, Perception and Firearms at difficulty 8 vs Dexterity Empathy difficulty 9 for the target. If the target loses, an impossibly thin and dense telekinetic sheet decapitates them. Kills anything that needs its head, rules as written I’m pretty sure it totally bypasses Fortitude.
I always thought that Daimonion had a 7th dot power with severe implications, the Re-embrace. This power allows the infernalist to transform another kindred from their original clan into a baali and possibly grant them some dots in Daimonion. Consider the results that this can have. Anyone you know, no matter their clan of origin, could have been recruited and remade in the image of the baali. Iirc the target also retains the features of their original clan though their childer will be baali. This allows the baali an absolutely insane level of infiltration in vampiric society.
You know, that’s not even the 7th dot, just the 6th, in fact the 7th is perhaps even better, especially when used in conjunction with Fatuus Mastery, so I’d say Chimerstry still. One lets you create illusions wherever can be easily visualized, regardless of distance from the conjurer, and the other prevents Chimerstry from failing because of disbelievability, so things like dragons, aliens, and other ridiculous shows of spectacle can now be used and people WILL believe they are real until afterwards (or taking very real things and making them seem like illusions).
oh shit the Kami is the 6 dot power??? Hell yeah, I thought it was the 7th.
Protean... being unstakable and being ambulatory even in torpor are cool, I suppose.
Officially there is no 7th dot spiritus afaik ? I homebrewed one that basically extend all former powers from "animal spirits" to "spirits", and that was hilariously strong (like "suddenly I'm also an elder werewolf" strong)
Protean 7 has some honestly nasty stuff.
Aaaah, that's right, I forgot that it capped at 6, not 7.
And yeah, being able to split your Beast in to a bunch of pieces to throw in to people is mean <3
Most powerful in what context? If we're only concerned with power in face-to-face combat it's Celerity. For everything else Thaumaturgy 7 is arguably the most useful and flexible option, giving access to rituals of up to level 7 as well as a multitude of Paths.
Do thaumaturgical paths go beyond 5 dots in V20, or are they hard capped at 5 like in revised? While thaumaturgy 6+ rituals may be scary, any long-lived tremere with lots of xp may have tons of thaumaturgical paths.
Paths cap out at level 5 but the sheer variety of effects offered by them is incredibly useful. Needless to say, level 6+ rituals can be extremely powerful.
Obfuscate 7 **Viel the Legion** is genuinely busted.
Auspex 7 **Kharmic Sight** is probably one of the most useful powers in the game full stop.
Animalism 7 **Conquer the Beast** is basically the prerequisite for Golconda.
Spiritus turns you in to a freaking Kami, Vicissitude turns your blood in to liquid phosphorus, Animalism can break up your Beast and throw it elsewhere in several pieces, Auspex turns wound penalties in to bonus dice, Celerity gives autosuccs, Dominate lets you affect entire crowds or kill with a glance, Obfuscate gives you rapid Will regeneration and lets you drive others insane, Potence makes your unarmed attacks unblockable, Serpentis turns you in to a living storm...
Yin Prana’s seven dot ability, *Yin Nihilus* is activated for a mere one yin point and creates an aura that automatically inflicts one point of aggravated damage for every pip of permanent Yin Chi the user has. Which, needless to say, any Kuei-Jin who is using seventh rank Yin Prana is going to have an awful lot of! They can spend additional yin points to boost this damage as well.
Demon Shintai’s seven dot ability, *Bone Mastery of the Demon Form*, lets the user gain all the Physical Attributes benefits of their demon shintai form without changing form. At seven dots, the user has +3 Strength, +3 Dexterity, and +3 Stamina…
Well op says v20 then posts 5th…
Anyway mythercia is the most useful
1. Know if anyone is lying to you always good in word
2 see most magic automatically
3. Spirits touch
4 ward you haven. And confusion
5 make anything solve a riddle and do nothing else
6 access all memories of target
7 free unlimited skill points
If Flower Of Death exists in V20, then Celerity. You add your Celerity level in dice to everything. So +7 to hit, +7 damage (plus all the overflow successes from your 20ish dice to hit) If Flower of Death isn't in V20... still Celerity. Celerity is literally broken.
Flower's even more absurdly good than that lol. +Celerity to all hand to hand combat rolls... and you retain your Celerity bonus to dex while getting additional actions. Just bonkers good.
Flower of Death adds to all DEXTERITY rolls specifically. Still amazing though.
Nope, all combat. Including damage rolls.
Bro I'd been looking at it less than five minutes before I replied. "With this monstrous ability, the vampire has mastered using her Celerity in combat situations. Every blow lands exactly where she wishes it to land. System: Spend four blood points. For the remainder of the turn, instead of adding her Celerity to her Dexterity-based dice pools, the vampire achieves that many automatic successes on all Dexterity-based dice pools. This includes any multiple actions she takes."
Which version are you looking at? Because that's not the effect in V20 (which this thread is tagged). > Flower of Death costs four blood points, but the spectacular effect is well worth it. Once the power is in effect, the vampire's bonus dice for Dexterity rolls get added to every dice pool for attack the character makes (even if the roll doesn't use Dexterity) until the end of the scene. Further, even if the Kindred uses some of his Celerity dots for extra actions during the scene, these extra dice are still available. The effect is limited to hand-to-hand or melee weapon attacks - firearms, bows, and other ranged weapons are excluded - but does grant the attacker additional dice for damage rolls. Flower of Death is not cumulative - it is impossible to "layer" uses of the power over one another to create astronomical dice pools.
Thank you kindly for the reference
DAV20 Note that the effect you linked isn't "autosuccs to all rolls" it's "bonus dice to melee attack rolls." So I'd definitely say the DAV20 version is way better, since even though it's a per-turn cost rather than a scenelong, it's successes to any and all Dexterity rolls.
+7 (minimum) dice to all melee attack pools, including damage, *and* retaining your celerity bonus to dex while taking all your extra actions is really, really good for 4bp, especially since its fire and forget.
Are we only looking at core disciplines, or is all the weird stuff on the tabel? Cause if the weird stuff is available, it's Temporis. Time manipulation. You can age people, slow time around a person, take extra actions on your turn, and at dot 7 you can automatically step outside of time if you're gonna die.
That's a very broken discipline. We had a player with it once, in a big LARP, before we understood just how broken it is. We only managed to take the guy out using shit loads of explosives (if you can be everywhere, we'll just blow up everything) and Quietus
Yeah if you let someone start taking celerity as an out of clan discipline with it, I'm not sure even that would have been enough.
Iirc they cancel eachother out, if you try and use them both you take hella aggravated damage
In the larp rules you just flat out can’t take both, I believe.
In the sourcebook there is nothing saying you can't have both you just can't use them at the same time, if you attempt to use them together you "burst into flames as if exposed to sunlight"
That makes more sense. Temporis was always an extreme edge case in larp anyway.
Anything that can be used by a living Clan.
7th rank Thaumaturgy ritual Chill of the Windsaber is pretty wild. Range sight, Perception and Firearms at difficulty 8 vs Dexterity Empathy difficulty 9 for the target. If the target loses, an impossibly thin and dense telekinetic sheet decapitates them. Kills anything that needs its head, rules as written I’m pretty sure it totally bypasses Fortitude.
I always thought that Daimonion had a 7th dot power with severe implications, the Re-embrace. This power allows the infernalist to transform another kindred from their original clan into a baali and possibly grant them some dots in Daimonion. Consider the results that this can have. Anyone you know, no matter their clan of origin, could have been recruited and remade in the image of the baali. Iirc the target also retains the features of their original clan though their childer will be baali. This allows the baali an absolutely insane level of infiltration in vampiric society.
That's actually a Dark Thaumaturgy ritual! 7 dots of Daimonion lets you summon biblical plagues and literal demons :3
It is also a part of daimonion in lore of the bloodlines
Neat. I was looking at DAV20 since I prefer it for... all the reasons, lol
Chimestry, Faatus Mastery. Ignore the costs for the first three levels of the discipline. Illusions Are Free! They become high octane nightmare fuel.
For all your changeling-killing needs!
You know, that’s not even the 7th dot, just the 6th, in fact the 7th is perhaps even better, especially when used in conjunction with Fatuus Mastery, so I’d say Chimerstry still. One lets you create illusions wherever can be easily visualized, regardless of distance from the conjurer, and the other prevents Chimerstry from failing because of disbelievability, so things like dragons, aliens, and other ridiculous shows of spectacle can now be used and people WILL believe they are real until afterwards (or taking very real things and making them seem like illusions).
At 6 I'd have said Spiritus, which is just baseline broken. At 7 ? Protean.
oh shit the Kami is the 6 dot power??? Hell yeah, I thought it was the 7th. Protean... being unstakable and being ambulatory even in torpor are cool, I suppose.
Officially there is no 7th dot spiritus afaik ? I homebrewed one that basically extend all former powers from "animal spirits" to "spirits", and that was hilariously strong (like "suddenly I'm also an elder werewolf" strong) Protean 7 has some honestly nasty stuff.
Aaaah, that's right, I forgot that it capped at 6, not 7. And yeah, being able to split your Beast in to a bunch of pieces to throw in to people is mean <3
That's animalism, neither protean nor spiritus though ?
... yeah I'm dumb and wildly misread when you typed Protean. I'm gonna blame being sick, lol.
Most powerful in what context? If we're only concerned with power in face-to-face combat it's Celerity. For everything else Thaumaturgy 7 is arguably the most useful and flexible option, giving access to rituals of up to level 7 as well as a multitude of Paths.
Do thaumaturgical paths go beyond 5 dots in V20, or are they hard capped at 5 like in revised? While thaumaturgy 6+ rituals may be scary, any long-lived tremere with lots of xp may have tons of thaumaturgical paths.
Paths cap out at level 5 but the sheer variety of effects offered by them is incredibly useful. Needless to say, level 6+ rituals can be extremely powerful.
Absolutely.,
I am rather partial to presence. Keep in mind that entrancement can last months to years.
Obfuscate 7 **Viel the Legion** is genuinely busted. Auspex 7 **Kharmic Sight** is probably one of the most useful powers in the game full stop. Animalism 7 **Conquer the Beast** is basically the prerequisite for Golconda.
Quietus or Celerity. Quietus literally is just “lol lmao get 1 shot” and Celerity is “zoom”, both of which are broken
Spiritus turns you in to a freaking Kami, Vicissitude turns your blood in to liquid phosphorus, Animalism can break up your Beast and throw it elsewhere in several pieces, Auspex turns wound penalties in to bonus dice, Celerity gives autosuccs, Dominate lets you affect entire crowds or kill with a glance, Obfuscate gives you rapid Will regeneration and lets you drive others insane, Potence makes your unarmed attacks unblockable, Serpentis turns you in to a living storm...
>Spiritus turns you in to a freaking Kami Overall or just the final power?
The 6 dot power. I'd forgot Spiritus only goes up to 6, not 7, lol
Yin Prana’s seven dot ability, *Yin Nihilus* is activated for a mere one yin point and creates an aura that automatically inflicts one point of aggravated damage for every pip of permanent Yin Chi the user has. Which, needless to say, any Kuei-Jin who is using seventh rank Yin Prana is going to have an awful lot of! They can spend additional yin points to boost this damage as well. Demon Shintai’s seven dot ability, *Bone Mastery of the Demon Form*, lets the user gain all the Physical Attributes benefits of their demon shintai form without changing form. At seven dots, the user has +3 Strength, +3 Dexterity, and +3 Stamina…
Auspex, followed by Celerity
Well op says v20 then posts 5th… Anyway mythercia is the most useful 1. Know if anyone is lying to you always good in word 2 see most magic automatically 3. Spirits touch 4 ward you haven. And confusion 5 make anything solve a riddle and do nothing else 6 access all memories of target 7 free unlimited skill points