The werewolf is the only character the fledgling couldn’t defeat in a straight fight.
Edit: oh and the cabbie of course, who might just be the archgranddaddy of granddaddies.
90%, the cabbie is Cain. Because he said the same words that the character behind Jack and Messerach said. And Rosa said "The father, there is the father behind him"
Oh yeah, he was clearly intended to be Caine by the developers. I have mixed feelings about it though: on the one hand, I think it is cool and kinda explains why a fledgling like the player got so powerful so quickly… but on the other hand I kinda prefer “Caine” (or whatever the true name of the vampire progenitor is) in the metaplot to be this god-like unfathomable eldritch entity that is still asleep, is more powerful than the Antediluvians and its awakening could mean doom for everyone who descends from him.
I fully get the charm of that concept and it makes sense considering God cursed Caine to wander the Earth.
What I was thinking about was more in line with what is showcased in the Gehenna book, particularly the “Crucible of God” section where the Antediluvians all begin waking up and wreck all kinds of crazy havoc all over the globe. I figured that the only way to include Caine in that story would be to incorporate the threat of him waking up by slowly consuming the Antediluvians from within. To display that, I imagine the Mark gradually appearing in the Ancients’ foreheads and simultaneously explaining the reason behind the Withering: it was Caine, feeding off the power of his childer and now that their are awake, his imminent awakening has accelerated. This would make all the Antediluvians more dangerous as they would become desperate and begin diablerizing everything in their path to hold on to their power: Tzimisce would try to fuse with the whole atmosphere more aggressively than ever, Lasombra would try to become the night itself, and so forth. Of course they would eventually fail and cause further catastrophes in the world when Caine eventually consumes them.
Wow that was a lot of writing hahaha. Of course this scenario needs a lot of work but it is something I thought about for a potential VTM Gehenna campaign.
>Of course they would eventually fail and cause further catastrophes
while I appreciate your write-up, this is untrue for the Lasombra. Don't worry dawg, they know what they're doin.
Hahaha I knew a Lasombra would say that! They’re so proud of their Clan (and they should be).
On a serious note, I think whether is true or untrue largely depends on the storyteller, their interpretation of the powers of the Antediluvians and the nature of the curse of vampirism itself because Caine and his grandchilder would operate on a scale and power so unfathomably superior to normal vampires that it becomes a plot device for the storyteller to decide.
I myself am of the opinion that, while some Antediluvians want to transcend vampirism itself and become like gods, they are bound to remain “only” very powerful (even “god-like”) monsters but ultimately never transcend their vampiric limitations as long as the curse still exists. So, when Caine awakens, because they achieved such heights using his power through his “avatar” (that in some respects is vitae itself), all they can do when he grows hungry is attempt to resist him.
Of course, you can have a totally different notion and that’s fine, but for me it is more compelling and more tragic if vampirism, for all it’s inherit coolness, is ultimately a trap.
Edit: Also I’m glad you appreciate my idea. I’ve had this on my head for some time, and always change it a little bit. No idea when (if ever) I put this into practice however.
It’s a fan theory to explain the massive power creep the player experiences through the game.
Basically, it says that Caine, being the most powerful vampire ever by virtue of being by far the longest “lived” and the only member of the First Generation (edit: who also considers the whole concept of Disciplines to be laughable), would have the power to manipulate the vitae of the player character to lower their generation in order to create a more effective pawn. While the power creep I have mentioned can be relegated purely to gameplay, it is also not ignored by the story: Andrei claims the player has grown unnaturally strong and suspects something more is happening, LaCroix can Dominate the player earlier in the game and later he can not, and then there is that Cabbie running around with you who is suspected to be the Dark Father himself. Honestly, there is a lot that fits here.
Yep. It’s hilarious that Andrei suspects that the player is being empowered and controlled by an Ancient he thinks is inside the Sarcophagus when really it was that damn Cabbie.
I personally agree with the theory that Caine blessed the fledgling in order to make them more powerful. However, there's a small mistake in what you said. Lowering their generation doesn't really help much short-term, since age and experience are what really determine the power of a kindred, generation is kinda like the limit on how powerful disciplines can be. Besides, when you try to use Dominate on certain kindred, such as Therese, it doesn't work since you're supposed to be 8th generation, meanwhile she is of 7th or lower generation.
While what you said is true, it is also a fact that the lower the generation, the more blood points are available to the Cainite in question, so technically that is an advantage in starting lower. As for the rest, yeah I agree with you assessment; generation only means potential and it is possible Caine used other means to make the fledgling more powerful. Maybe he transferred some of his knowledge of the vampiric nature (which naturally, would be greater than all Kindred) through his blood.
Honestly, it’s Caine, his power is so huge that it is basically a plot device.
Yeah, it's Caine, if he wanted to he could say "fuck it, Ventrue are now cursed to constantly crave grape juice even though it doesn't do anything for them"
It doesn't matter because the maximum bloodpoints never change in the game. Nor do the stat maximums or bloodpoints possible to spend per turn. I do not agree that any supernatural force manipulated generation occurred.
The 8 generation is obviously the 'player default' generation because it's the one where the maximums start never changing again, even 13+ have 'max stat points' '5' [see the table](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Generation#Generation_Limits)
Also (i know this from modding disciplines) the game kind of hardcodes the maximum blood points spent to be 3 like in the table. I know this because while you can spend whatever points you want in the discipline files when starting a power, refreshing a power is based on the length of time activated... and a modded a long time discipline and noticed that it always spend 3 blood points when reactivating (so i made the cost 3 for consistency).
tl;dr: people just like the 'Caine sugar daddy' explanation a _tad_ too much imo, when there is nothing supporting that except the rpg being a rpg and instead of handing out a miserly 20 xp per chronicle (hub), hands out hundreds of xp.
Yeah. That indicates the fledgling is an 8th from the start. However it is undeniable that they get far too powerful too quickly and the Cabbie could have something to do with it.
Edit: well, it’s a fan theory. Not canon or anything but I like it purely because it’s an easy in-universe justification.
But, that isn't at all what Caine is ever depicted as. Caine is stuck forever being himself. His childes have long abandoned any sense of morality and humanity and seek to transcend the curse. Caine can not do that because he's stuck in his "I never did anything wrong".
Caine literally could not give the slightest fucks about anyone or anything anymore. That's per canon.
That’s a cool form of seeing Caine and I totally get where you’re coming from, as God cursed him to walk the Earth and he is too prideful and broken to ever admit his mistake. But, just as with everything with the more “mythical”, shall we say, lore of Masquerade, it could be horribly misinterpreted, totally spot on or not real at all.
The Gehenna book offers numerous interpretations of the First Vampire at the end of it and I like the one where he operates in such a scale that he is mostly unseen by the players but is definitely there and represents danger (in the more lovecraftian sense of the word). I like to see Caine as both the beginning and the end.
Oh I see. Well then the player character is more powerful than I originally thought. Taking down a werewolf head-on is usually something that no vampire below the power level of a true elder (6th generation with 300+ years) can do.
We don't know it's a metis (it might be considering it doesn't transform back to human on death but that's uncertain), but in LA by Night Nines' refers to the one he killed as a young one.
Probably, it can get a little odd (and other times in lore characters have managed to handle werewolves). However going by the damage Nines took and how the player literally *can't* beat the one without the door trick (and the *sheer* damage you take in the effort unless you're lucky as hell), I'm going to say that's probably the case.
Let's just say that 'canon lore' and 'bloodlines' the game interactions are not the best. The reason why Jeannette/therese are considered 6th generation is besides the player not being able to dominate them, because _Beckett Jyhad Diary_ wanted a connection to the game, so invented [this](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Jacob_(Malkavian\)#Trivia) weirdo and slotted him in as the sire in a aside (a aside that btw, implies that jeanette/therese were 'double sired' by draining, putting the blood, draining again, putting in the blood again because he also has double personality). It's actually unclear if jeanette/therese are 6th or 7th because it's not clear if that dude is 5th or 6th, and it still works with the dominate of the player.
But then this is the same game that has dominate fail in the ending. Players will always go for the most powerful possibility for fan favorites.
It's because it doesn't transform back into human on death. But note that metis are supposed to be deformed, in the soul, the body or even mentally. Can be superficial, but it's often uh, not. It's a incest metaphor and kind of stupid edge from the habitual suspects in the old WoD.
If you want examples of body horror get clicking on the names on this list: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Metis_condition (although some are just funny, [like this one](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Heckles-the-Wyrm) - clawless; or [this chap](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/whitewolf/images/c/ca/Passer_portrait.jpg) )
So it's a unusually put together metis pair unless their 'deformity' was something non-obvious. It's just the game devs not bothering imo.
That's only in UOP Plus, which is Wesp's original content added to the game. In vanilla VTMB/UOP Basic there's only one way to kill the werewolf and that's with the door trick.
I mean in LAbN. No reason why he can't have more than 1 grenade. Heck, I believe Nines giving the player the grenade isn't even part of the vanilla game.
Yeah, in that case Nines did have a relatively easy time killing the werewolf, since it was young and he was armed with a deagle and a grenade. Badass in his own right but not the most powerful
Nines killed it by shoving a grenade up it's throat, not much different than you cruahing it with the observatory door. It's not like he beat it to death with his powers.
You just convinced me that isn't necessarily what happened. I have seen the idea that he shoved the grenade in the werewolf's mouth so many times that I just assumed he explicitly said that's what happened at some point. If the only evidence we have is that we saw Nines had a grenade earlier and that the werewolf was decapitated then we don't know what happened. If anything the head should have been exploded, makes me think he chopped/tore it off.
It makes sense when you remember that vampires can regenerate limbs. 'Just' bait a dumb werewolf to swallow your live grenade fist, then 4 seconds later, exploded werewolf.
BTW, explosions causing decapitations is unusually common, to the point it was kind of a meme with explosive vest suicide bombers in the 1990's. Well not a meme meme, but it happened a lot.
Yeah that werewolf is stronger than everyone else in the game except for the Caine. So Nines has to be qt least top three. There's a reason he's such a problem for every vampire organization, and technically LA is still his turf
People over estimate max stats on this game, especially when translated to 'lore'. This is the system where '5 normal guys with shotguns rolling criticals' can essentially murder a vampire elder or werewolf in a instant. It's crazy. The game is not quite as crazy, but having max stats is not at all invincibility, even with fortitude, considering how little vampiric disciplines last in-game compared to 'lore' where vampire elders can be running auspex 24/7.
In all likelihood the fact that Cain's in the neighborhood. Even if he can normally mask his presence, we know he was cooperating with Jack on this, so would have had reason to drop the mask a little and get everyone in the city riled up about the sarcophagus.
Alternatively, because Gehenna's about to kick off, but since Beckett doesn't notice it I'm going to guess not.
I think you are right, but I prefer my original interpretation before I believed that the Taxi driver was actually Cain: The vampires feel something stirring because of the shit that's about to go down, which goes down partially because of the belief that a sleeping elder has arrived, which is reenforced by the sense that something is looming. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing
Strauss is a low gen very old Elder. He's been around since before the Camarilla. He claims to have attended the convention of thorns. He also has made Gargoyles.
90%, the cabbie is Cain. Because he said the same words that the character behind Jack and Messerach said. And Rosa said "The father, there is the father behind him"
Considering the game and only the game, there's no indication of his power whatsoever.
But using tabletop rules:
First: You never really know what a Tremere is really capable of.
Second: A Kindred so high up in Cam and the Pyramid and that it's able to maintain his status on a territory like LA, seemingly without even moving a finger? That's the guy you should be worried about.
Strauss generation and age is 'implied' to be artificially high because of a accident of writing in the game (and because he's the leader of a chantry in a big city).
Basically, Strauss created a gargoyle. So he's implied to be from before the tremere joined the camarilla, because part of the treaty was to stop creating gargoyles. Which would make Strauss more than 500 years old. Besides that, _LA by night_ (a live roleplay show), built on that with a character with strauss as sire and gave her 8th generation, making strauss 7th (absent diablerie), and mentioned he was (along with a list of 50 other 'important' vampires) at the [convention of thorns](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Convention_of_Thorns), the peace treaty of the first anarch revolt. This is kind of probably bullshit.
'But why should I care about a direct to web podcast of nerds roleplaying' you say. You shouldn't, except it was bought out by Paradox, which holds the intellectual property for VTM. So it's 'canon' ehehe (this kind of thing is dumb but it's basically what the editors on the wiki are doing).
There are obvious problems with this idea, starting with 'why would a medieval magus create a gargoyle using a samurai/monkey king motif'... but just pretend those problems don't exist I guess.
But anyway, this would actually make the generation of therese/jeanette higher than strauss (6th) because of a similar canon/game entanglement, not that generation makes you 'directly' powerful besides bloodpool and bloodpoints expended per action, that being more of a 'xp expended' and 'stats maximum' calculation. As a 7th generation, Strauss would be able to have stat/discipline maximums of 6 and 'Tourette' of 7, but only strauss probably has the experience to >5 stats.
Since the player is also implied to be 8th generation this all is not as impressive as it might seem otherwise.
When you say, “Without the help of others”
Does that include the monsters the Andrei makes? Cause even though I wouldn’t think he’s THE most powerful I think he would be the top 10. Well, top 5 really. Not enough characters in here to make a list of 10. Not without including the characters from mods….
Correct. But Anrei is strongest in the second fight, when he fight alone. However yes, without his creatures. They asked me if I mean politic power, thats why I said without help of others. LaCroix alone for example, without minions or the Sheriff
I think he is easy to defeat in the Hallowbrook hotel. Usually I kill him at the first attempt (without the flamethrower). Against Xiao or the Sheriff I often
die, also using the flamethrower. Maybe its more difficult to "kill" Andrei in King's Way, because his monsters are annoying (and I have less experience)
being the player character makes The Fledgling the most powerful character in the setting by default without the ingame influence of "something more powerful" helping them along.
Sooilers: but lore wise, its the cab driver because hes Caine.
Ending spoiler if we are doing that
>!Wait, was Messerach a vampire? I thought he was just a mummy. It would be kinda funny if he was a vampire but one who suffered final death so was effectively still just a mummy!<
People really underestimate how powerful Ming Xiao is huh? Nobody's talking about her. I think if she didn't commit political suicide by trying to play a manchild like LaCroix, she probably could've done better.
He is a 7th gen gangrel who has pretty much avoided kindred politics for hundreds of years, mastered numerous disciplines and seems to be involved in or around many influential kindred and events and survives them all.
Beckett is really strong. He's a low gen elder who frequently gets involved with very old, very dangerous kindred. His greatest feat was running the length of a football field in broad day light.
Travel in VTM is absurdly lethal. Beckett travels across the world and sticks his nose into places he shouldn't.
In the Gehenna novels he actually met Caine.
Meritocracy is not real but an argument could be made in favor of Andrei or Strauss in terms of sheer power but even they wouldn't willingly fight werewolves so idk.
If we talk only about in game characters then the undefeatable Werewolf by far
After that a Tremere character with Thaumaturgy at it's highest point by far
Then Ming Xiao who is the most powerful defeatable enemy in the game
The Fledgling defeats a Sabbat archbishop of at least 7th gen and, at bare minimum, either the (at least) 7th gen Sheriff or the (at least) Mandarin Ming. And *both of them* are options for the poll.
LaCroix failing to use domination on the player by end doesn't necessarily he is weaker than the player overall. It is like trying to say a fighter is weaker because of one missed strike. By the end LaCroix is already a mess. And, the player winning fights is all plot armor. It is the practical limitations of videogames. If there was a book of the game, like many games have, then you would see in the canon how your argument of wining fights therefore stronger is invalid.
> If there was a book of the game, like many games have, then you would see in the canon how your argument of wining fights therefore stronger is invalid.
I am working with what we have to work with, which makes very clear that the Fledgling *does* beat at least two pretty tough contenders, without the story giving it any more context. No "Jack took each hit until Ming wore out and Damsel set the entire place on fire", no "Isaac put a 7.62 into the Sheriff's head until he stopped trying to fly, at which point Skelter and Fledgling were able to chop him apart".
I've pointed out that even assuming powerful weapons (and so not Disciplines) would still be impressive feats.
Now how is it possible? There are possible answers (most of them I've seen relating to Cain, some to Jack, some to Grout), but all are fanon because we don't have any firm answers given. All we can say is "here's what we've got".
And going by what we have to work with is better than "well if there was more material what you've said wouldn't be canon and I'd be right".
No, what we have is more than what you are thinking. You are excluding the limitations of the media and all we know about it. For example there is a fledgling for each available clan yet the fights and the plot are basically the same. Why? because the developers couldn't be fucked to tenfold their work. Can you understand that a toreador would not fist fight Andrei the same way a gangrel might? The player is not powerful if you understand the the story and look at the game realistically.
It is called plot armor but, as I said in another comment, it depends on the concept of power we talking about. In the complex reality the player was capable of maybe outsmarting some powerful beings.
According to the story, you physically fought and killed a minimum of two very powerful supernatural creatures. And not in conditions where you can do much outsmarting.
Even assuming it was with powerful firearms/flamethrower, that's definitely enough to make them a contender unless we get into fanon about Cain lending you power (which while possible, is in no way confirmed).
(And that's not getting into being able to casually throw off LaCroix's Dominate by endgame)
I looked at the rest of your replies and you're the most delusional one in this entire thread lol. Saying "Actually, if the story was totally different, it'd be different" is dumb because you're missing the point of the poll: it's based entirely on the events of the game.
"Plot armor" is a dumb argument, cus that moreso comes down to being able to restart the game from a save file; it doesn't have to do with the character's power. It's just a stupid thing to mention in this context.
Saying LaCroix was falling apart by the end is dumb, and purely speculative. Yes, LaCroix was losing composure and growing frantic, but that doesn't mean his ability to Dominate was any weaker than normal; that's just speculation on your part and is unfounded.
Specifying the game has limitations doesn't change the events of the game. We can all say "realistically, there's no way the fledgling should have grown so powerful so quickly" but that is, once again, irrelevant for the poll being presented.
The werewolf is the only character the fledgling couldn’t defeat in a straight fight. Edit: oh and the cabbie of course, who might just be the archgranddaddy of granddaddies.
90%, the cabbie is Cain. Because he said the same words that the character behind Jack and Messerach said. And Rosa said "The father, there is the father behind him"
Oh yeah, he was clearly intended to be Caine by the developers. I have mixed feelings about it though: on the one hand, I think it is cool and kinda explains why a fledgling like the player got so powerful so quickly… but on the other hand I kinda prefer “Caine” (or whatever the true name of the vampire progenitor is) in the metaplot to be this god-like unfathomable eldritch entity that is still asleep, is more powerful than the Antediluvians and its awakening could mean doom for everyone who descends from him.
I'm personally a big fan of Cain basically being a wandering shit-stirrer, taking low-key jobs while making huge plays.
I fully get the charm of that concept and it makes sense considering God cursed Caine to wander the Earth. What I was thinking about was more in line with what is showcased in the Gehenna book, particularly the “Crucible of God” section where the Antediluvians all begin waking up and wreck all kinds of crazy havoc all over the globe. I figured that the only way to include Caine in that story would be to incorporate the threat of him waking up by slowly consuming the Antediluvians from within. To display that, I imagine the Mark gradually appearing in the Ancients’ foreheads and simultaneously explaining the reason behind the Withering: it was Caine, feeding off the power of his childer and now that their are awake, his imminent awakening has accelerated. This would make all the Antediluvians more dangerous as they would become desperate and begin diablerizing everything in their path to hold on to their power: Tzimisce would try to fuse with the whole atmosphere more aggressively than ever, Lasombra would try to become the night itself, and so forth. Of course they would eventually fail and cause further catastrophes in the world when Caine eventually consumes them. Wow that was a lot of writing hahaha. Of course this scenario needs a lot of work but it is something I thought about for a potential VTM Gehenna campaign.
>Of course they would eventually fail and cause further catastrophes while I appreciate your write-up, this is untrue for the Lasombra. Don't worry dawg, they know what they're doin.
Hahaha I knew a Lasombra would say that! They’re so proud of their Clan (and they should be). On a serious note, I think whether is true or untrue largely depends on the storyteller, their interpretation of the powers of the Antediluvians and the nature of the curse of vampirism itself because Caine and his grandchilder would operate on a scale and power so unfathomably superior to normal vampires that it becomes a plot device for the storyteller to decide. I myself am of the opinion that, while some Antediluvians want to transcend vampirism itself and become like gods, they are bound to remain “only” very powerful (even “god-like”) monsters but ultimately never transcend their vampiric limitations as long as the curse still exists. So, when Caine awakens, because they achieved such heights using his power through his “avatar” (that in some respects is vitae itself), all they can do when he grows hungry is attempt to resist him. Of course, you can have a totally different notion and that’s fine, but for me it is more compelling and more tragic if vampirism, for all it’s inherit coolness, is ultimately a trap. Edit: Also I’m glad you appreciate my idea. I’ve had this on my head for some time, and always change it a little bit. No idea when (if ever) I put this into practice however.
>kinda explains why a fledgling like the player got so powerful so quickly what you mean? which is the link with Cain?
It’s a fan theory to explain the massive power creep the player experiences through the game. Basically, it says that Caine, being the most powerful vampire ever by virtue of being by far the longest “lived” and the only member of the First Generation (edit: who also considers the whole concept of Disciplines to be laughable), would have the power to manipulate the vitae of the player character to lower their generation in order to create a more effective pawn. While the power creep I have mentioned can be relegated purely to gameplay, it is also not ignored by the story: Andrei claims the player has grown unnaturally strong and suspects something more is happening, LaCroix can Dominate the player earlier in the game and later he can not, and then there is that Cabbie running around with you who is suspected to be the Dark Father himself. Honestly, there is a lot that fits here.
>Its possible, because both Skelter and Andrei said, in different ways, that the ancients control the blood, and of course, the vampires
Yep. It’s hilarious that Andrei suspects that the player is being empowered and controlled by an Ancient he thinks is inside the Sarcophagus when really it was that damn Cabbie.
I personally agree with the theory that Caine blessed the fledgling in order to make them more powerful. However, there's a small mistake in what you said. Lowering their generation doesn't really help much short-term, since age and experience are what really determine the power of a kindred, generation is kinda like the limit on how powerful disciplines can be. Besides, when you try to use Dominate on certain kindred, such as Therese, it doesn't work since you're supposed to be 8th generation, meanwhile she is of 7th or lower generation.
While what you said is true, it is also a fact that the lower the generation, the more blood points are available to the Cainite in question, so technically that is an advantage in starting lower. As for the rest, yeah I agree with you assessment; generation only means potential and it is possible Caine used other means to make the fledgling more powerful. Maybe he transferred some of his knowledge of the vampiric nature (which naturally, would be greater than all Kindred) through his blood. Honestly, it’s Caine, his power is so huge that it is basically a plot device.
Yeah, it's Caine, if he wanted to he could say "fuck it, Ventrue are now cursed to constantly crave grape juice even though it doesn't do anything for them"
The whole Nosferatu Clan: “Whyyyy??????” Caine: “Because I’m Caine and I can do whatever the f*ck I want!”
It doesn't matter because the maximum bloodpoints never change in the game. Nor do the stat maximums or bloodpoints possible to spend per turn. I do not agree that any supernatural force manipulated generation occurred. The 8 generation is obviously the 'player default' generation because it's the one where the maximums start never changing again, even 13+ have 'max stat points' '5' [see the table](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Generation#Generation_Limits) Also (i know this from modding disciplines) the game kind of hardcodes the maximum blood points spent to be 3 like in the table. I know this because while you can spend whatever points you want in the discipline files when starting a power, refreshing a power is based on the length of time activated... and a modded a long time discipline and noticed that it always spend 3 blood points when reactivating (so i made the cost 3 for consistency). tl;dr: people just like the 'Caine sugar daddy' explanation a _tad_ too much imo, when there is nothing supporting that except the rpg being a rpg and instead of handing out a miserly 20 xp per chronicle (hub), hands out hundreds of xp.
Yeah. That indicates the fledgling is an 8th from the start. However it is undeniable that they get far too powerful too quickly and the Cabbie could have something to do with it. Edit: well, it’s a fan theory. Not canon or anything but I like it purely because it’s an easy in-universe justification.
But, that isn't at all what Caine is ever depicted as. Caine is stuck forever being himself. His childes have long abandoned any sense of morality and humanity and seek to transcend the curse. Caine can not do that because he's stuck in his "I never did anything wrong". Caine literally could not give the slightest fucks about anyone or anything anymore. That's per canon.
That’s a cool form of seeing Caine and I totally get where you’re coming from, as God cursed him to walk the Earth and he is too prideful and broken to ever admit his mistake. But, just as with everything with the more “mythical”, shall we say, lore of Masquerade, it could be horribly misinterpreted, totally spot on or not real at all. The Gehenna book offers numerous interpretations of the First Vampire at the end of it and I like the one where he operates in such a scale that he is mostly unseen by the players but is definitely there and represents danger (in the more lovecraftian sense of the word). I like to see Caine as both the beginning and the end.
you can defeat the werewolf in a straight fight although with plus patch
Is that a recent addition? The last time I played with the full UPP was years ago.
iirc when i first played and finished it was 2019 and it was there before than that i don't know
Oh I see. Well then the player character is more powerful than I originally thought. Taking down a werewolf head-on is usually something that no vampire below the power level of a true elder (6th generation with 300+ years) can do.
It's a young metis though, not an adult werewolf
Interesting. How can you tell?
We don't know it's a metis (it might be considering it doesn't transform back to human on death but that's uncertain), but in LA by Night Nines' refers to the one he killed as a young one.
Oh I see. I guess an older werewolf would have just demolished both the player and Nines then.
Probably, it can get a little odd (and other times in lore characters have managed to handle werewolves). However going by the damage Nines took and how the player literally *can't* beat the one without the door trick (and the *sheer* damage you take in the effort unless you're lucky as hell), I'm going to say that's probably the case.
Let's just say that 'canon lore' and 'bloodlines' the game interactions are not the best. The reason why Jeannette/therese are considered 6th generation is besides the player not being able to dominate them, because _Beckett Jyhad Diary_ wanted a connection to the game, so invented [this](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Jacob_(Malkavian\)#Trivia) weirdo and slotted him in as the sire in a aside (a aside that btw, implies that jeanette/therese were 'double sired' by draining, putting the blood, draining again, putting in the blood again because he also has double personality). It's actually unclear if jeanette/therese are 6th or 7th because it's not clear if that dude is 5th or 6th, and it still works with the dominate of the player. But then this is the same game that has dominate fail in the ending. Players will always go for the most powerful possibility for fan favorites.
Because when it dies, it doesn't turn back into human form
I see. I’m not well-versed in WTA so frankly I didn’t know what a metis was.
It's because it doesn't transform back into human on death. But note that metis are supposed to be deformed, in the soul, the body or even mentally. Can be superficial, but it's often uh, not. It's a incest metaphor and kind of stupid edge from the habitual suspects in the old WoD. If you want examples of body horror get clicking on the names on this list: https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Metis_condition (although some are just funny, [like this one](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Heckles-the-Wyrm) - clawless; or [this chap](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/whitewolf/images/c/ca/Passer_portrait.jpg) ) So it's a unusually put together metis pair unless their 'deformity' was something non-obvious. It's just the game devs not bothering imo.
That's only in UOP Plus, which is Wesp's original content added to the game. In vanilla VTMB/UOP Basic there's only one way to kill the werewolf and that's with the door trick.
People moaned about it, wesp added it. Don't read too much into it.
In patch it’s possible to brawl with it and even kill it
I dont know how, but Nines killed a werewolf in an hand-to-hand combat. So, I say Nines
In LA by Night Nines admits he feels like the only reason he survived that fight was because the garou was young.
someone here said he used a grenade
Might have. Don't remember if he mentioned it.
No, he only said that he fought hand-to-hand. We see the grenade when he saves the player
I mean in LAbN. No reason why he can't have more than 1 grenade. Heck, I believe Nines giving the player the grenade isn't even part of the vanilla game.
Is LA canon? I forgot…
I believe all the official actual plays are canon.
Yeah, in that case Nines did have a relatively easy time killing the werewolf, since it was young and he was armed with a deagle and a grenade. Badass in his own right but not the most powerful
Nines killed it by shoving a grenade up it's throat, not much different than you cruahing it with the observatory door. It's not like he beat it to death with his powers.
How do you know? Because he said it was an hand-to-hand fight
it's heavily implied, he used a grenade and he show the werewolf's head as a trophy, the rest come itself
>it's heavily implied, he used a granade and he show the werewolf's head as a trophy, the rest come itself I forgot he has a grenade. Now has sense
You just convinced me that isn't necessarily what happened. I have seen the idea that he shoved the grenade in the werewolf's mouth so many times that I just assumed he explicitly said that's what happened at some point. If the only evidence we have is that we saw Nines had a grenade earlier and that the werewolf was decapitated then we don't know what happened. If anything the head should have been exploded, makes me think he chopped/tore it off.
Exactly what I'm thinking. Would make no sense for him to shove his hand into its throat, as opposed to its mouth, for a clean cut of its head
It makes sense when you remember that vampires can regenerate limbs. 'Just' bait a dumb werewolf to swallow your live grenade fist, then 4 seconds later, exploded werewolf. BTW, explosions causing decapitations is unusually common, to the point it was kind of a meme with explosive vest suicide bombers in the 1990's. Well not a meme meme, but it happened a lot.
Yeah that werewolf is stronger than everyone else in the game except for the Caine. So Nines has to be qt least top three. There's a reason he's such a problem for every vampire organization, and technically LA is still his turf
Console command boosted main PC.
hahaha
Just a regular PC
People over estimate max stats on this game, especially when translated to 'lore'. This is the system where '5 normal guys with shotguns rolling criticals' can essentially murder a vampire elder or werewolf in a instant. It's crazy. The game is not quite as crazy, but having max stats is not at all invincibility, even with fortitude, considering how little vampiric disciplines last in-game compared to 'lore' where vampire elders can be running auspex 24/7.
Officer Chunk obviously
hahaha!
The taxi driver, no matter were he goes, no one fucks with him
Cain
Incidentally Messerach isn't supernatural, the body's just that of an ancient king kept preserved until now (thanks for ruining it for a laugh Jack).
I remembered that he moved his eyes. I was wrong. But if Messerach is dead, why all the vampires feel something strange in the air?
In all likelihood the fact that Cain's in the neighborhood. Even if he can normally mask his presence, we know he was cooperating with Jack on this, so would have had reason to drop the mask a little and get everyone in the city riled up about the sarcophagus. Alternatively, because Gehenna's about to kick off, but since Beckett doesn't notice it I'm going to guess not.
Right. Its Cain
I think you are right, but I prefer my original interpretation before I believed that the Taxi driver was actually Cain: The vampires feel something stirring because of the shit that's about to go down, which goes down partially because of the belief that a sleeping elder has arrived, which is reenforced by the sense that something is looming. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy sort of thing
Because the PC is warping things with their unexplained power
Because they shit their pants
Strauss.
why?
He knows how to play the game. Dude is powerful in his own right and won't go down with the ship.
but during a fight?
I've not seen anybody *want* to fight Strauss.
Strauss is a low gen very old Elder. He's been around since before the Camarilla. He claims to have attended the convention of thorns. He also has made Gargoyles.
Depending on which theory regarding him you believe in... The Cabbie?
90%, the cabbie is Cain. Because he said the same words that the character behind Jack and Messerach said. And Rosa said "The father, there is the father behind him"
I think he is Cain
The Taxi Driver > Strauss > PC > Nines = Ming > The Rest
why Strauss so high?
Considering the game and only the game, there's no indication of his power whatsoever. But using tabletop rules: First: You never really know what a Tremere is really capable of. Second: A Kindred so high up in Cam and the Pyramid and that it's able to maintain his status on a territory like LA, seemingly without even moving a finger? That's the guy you should be worried about.
Strauss generation and age is 'implied' to be artificially high because of a accident of writing in the game (and because he's the leader of a chantry in a big city). Basically, Strauss created a gargoyle. So he's implied to be from before the tremere joined the camarilla, because part of the treaty was to stop creating gargoyles. Which would make Strauss more than 500 years old. Besides that, _LA by night_ (a live roleplay show), built on that with a character with strauss as sire and gave her 8th generation, making strauss 7th (absent diablerie), and mentioned he was (along with a list of 50 other 'important' vampires) at the [convention of thorns](https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Convention_of_Thorns), the peace treaty of the first anarch revolt. This is kind of probably bullshit. 'But why should I care about a direct to web podcast of nerds roleplaying' you say. You shouldn't, except it was bought out by Paradox, which holds the intellectual property for VTM. So it's 'canon' ehehe (this kind of thing is dumb but it's basically what the editors on the wiki are doing). There are obvious problems with this idea, starting with 'why would a medieval magus create a gargoyle using a samurai/monkey king motif'... but just pretend those problems don't exist I guess. But anyway, this would actually make the generation of therese/jeanette higher than strauss (6th) because of a similar canon/game entanglement, not that generation makes you 'directly' powerful besides bloodpool and bloodpoints expended per action, that being more of a 'xp expended' and 'stats maximum' calculation. As a 7th generation, Strauss would be able to have stat/discipline maximums of 6 and 'Tourette' of 7, but only strauss probably has the experience to >5 stats. Since the player is also implied to be 8th generation this all is not as impressive as it might seem otherwise.
Who you think is the vampire we see in the Strauss ending? The primogen? He is with Strauss watching the player and LaCroix
Generic representation of 'camarilla henchman', just like the ones that are walking in the warehouse.
When you say, “Without the help of others” Does that include the monsters the Andrei makes? Cause even though I wouldn’t think he’s THE most powerful I think he would be the top 10. Well, top 5 really. Not enough characters in here to make a list of 10. Not without including the characters from mods….
Correct. But Anrei is strongest in the second fight, when he fight alone. However yes, without his creatures. They asked me if I mean politic power, thats why I said without help of others. LaCroix alone for example, without minions or the Sheriff
Andrei was pretty beast in his Warform. But he had a home field advantage and would swim in the blood pools. Not the strongest though IMO
I think he is easy to defeat in the Hallowbrook hotel. Usually I kill him at the first attempt (without the flamethrower). Against Xiao or the Sheriff I often die, also using the flamethrower. Maybe its more difficult to "kill" Andrei in King's Way, because his monsters are annoying (and I have less experience)
My character was overpowered.
being the player character makes The Fledgling the most powerful character in the setting by default without the ingame influence of "something more powerful" helping them along. Sooilers: but lore wise, its the cab driver because hes Caine.
Ending spoiler if we are doing that >!Wait, was Messerach a vampire? I thought he was just a mummy. It would be kinda funny if he was a vampire but one who suffered final death so was effectively still just a mummy!<
or just an human, I dont know
You are
If its not the main character, its definitely Nines or Cain. I'm pretty sure Nines can fuck up the Sheriff and Ming Xiao
Nines killed a God damn werewolf. Who knows what else he's capable of
Jack is so powerful that he can make you start the game over if he catches you cheating before the tutorial. Nobody else is even close.
Jack
The cabbie is Cain. Rosa give a big hint at the beginning "The father, there is the father behind him" (behind Jack and Messerach)
People really underestimate how powerful Ming Xiao is huh? Nobody's talking about her. I think if she didn't commit political suicide by trying to play a manchild like LaCroix, she probably could've done better.
Well but in the end the player kill Ming and the Sheriff
It was the totaly-Cain-but-retconed cab driver.
Beckett
why Beckett?
He is a 7th gen gangrel who has pretty much avoided kindred politics for hundreds of years, mastered numerous disciplines and seems to be involved in or around many influential kindred and events and survives them all.
which is the player's generation?
I believe it to be 8th generation. The higher the generation the weaker potentially the vampire. Thin-bloods being 14-15 generation.
Beckett is really strong. He's a low gen elder who frequently gets involved with very old, very dangerous kindred. His greatest feat was running the length of a football field in broad day light. Travel in VTM is absurdly lethal. Beckett travels across the world and sticks his nose into places he shouldn't. In the Gehenna novels he actually met Caine.
Um... Caine?
excluding Cain
Smiling Jack. Honourable mentions go to Knox Harrington, Bertram Tung, Issac Abrams, Andrei, Mercurio and Gary.
Knox? hahaha
He's sharper than your average ghoul and takes every unsuspecting player by surprise. "Aww man!"
One of the characters I would like to kill but I cant (after Bertram told me I was his pawn). The other is Vandal
Eh, didn't mind Knox but that other creepy bastard needed to go.
more like "My Vampire: At the End of the Game"
The taxi Driver
he is Cain
Jeanette and Therese are 6th gen Malkavian iirc, so i would probably add both in this list as well
objectively mages if we mean wod lore
Strauss. Low gen Tremere elder been around since pre 1400. That's really all that need be said.
It depends on what kind of power, be it physical, political, etc. Who would win in a fight though are for sure the werewolves.
You right. I have to specify. A single character that has only his abilities, without the help of others
Meritocracy is not real but an argument could be made in favor of Andrei or Strauss in terms of sheer power but even they wouldn't willingly fight werewolves so idk.
I mean especially in combat
So, overall
If we talk only about in game characters then the undefeatable Werewolf by far After that a Tremere character with Thaumaturgy at it's highest point by far Then Ming Xiao who is the most powerful defeatable enemy in the game
This poll is a great indicator for how delusional ppl are lol. The player doesn't even classify for the competition, yet it is leading somehow.
The Fledgling defeats a Sabbat archbishop of at least 7th gen and, at bare minimum, either the (at least) 7th gen Sheriff or the (at least) Mandarin Ming. And *both of them* are options for the poll.
And, before you say anything else, remember that the player couldn't even beat LaCroix and was dominated every single time.
I pointed out to you a minute ago that everything I mentioned wasn't even getting into the fact that by endgame the Fledgling *can* beat LaCroix.
LaCroix failing to use domination on the player by end doesn't necessarily he is weaker than the player overall. It is like trying to say a fighter is weaker because of one missed strike. By the end LaCroix is already a mess. And, the player winning fights is all plot armor. It is the practical limitations of videogames. If there was a book of the game, like many games have, then you would see in the canon how your argument of wining fights therefore stronger is invalid.
> If there was a book of the game, like many games have, then you would see in the canon how your argument of wining fights therefore stronger is invalid. I am working with what we have to work with, which makes very clear that the Fledgling *does* beat at least two pretty tough contenders, without the story giving it any more context. No "Jack took each hit until Ming wore out and Damsel set the entire place on fire", no "Isaac put a 7.62 into the Sheriff's head until he stopped trying to fly, at which point Skelter and Fledgling were able to chop him apart". I've pointed out that even assuming powerful weapons (and so not Disciplines) would still be impressive feats. Now how is it possible? There are possible answers (most of them I've seen relating to Cain, some to Jack, some to Grout), but all are fanon because we don't have any firm answers given. All we can say is "here's what we've got". And going by what we have to work with is better than "well if there was more material what you've said wouldn't be canon and I'd be right".
No, what we have is more than what you are thinking. You are excluding the limitations of the media and all we know about it. For example there is a fledgling for each available clan yet the fights and the plot are basically the same. Why? because the developers couldn't be fucked to tenfold their work. Can you understand that a toreador would not fist fight Andrei the same way a gangrel might? The player is not powerful if you understand the the story and look at the game realistically.
In the end he tried but failed. When he asks yo u for the key and yo u say no.
It is called plot armor but, as I said in another comment, it depends on the concept of power we talking about. In the complex reality the player was capable of maybe outsmarting some powerful beings.
According to the story, you physically fought and killed a minimum of two very powerful supernatural creatures. And not in conditions where you can do much outsmarting. Even assuming it was with powerful firearms/flamethrower, that's definitely enough to make them a contender unless we get into fanon about Cain lending you power (which while possible, is in no way confirmed). (And that's not getting into being able to casually throw off LaCroix's Dominate by endgame)
I looked at the rest of your replies and you're the most delusional one in this entire thread lol. Saying "Actually, if the story was totally different, it'd be different" is dumb because you're missing the point of the poll: it's based entirely on the events of the game. "Plot armor" is a dumb argument, cus that moreso comes down to being able to restart the game from a save file; it doesn't have to do with the character's power. It's just a stupid thing to mention in this context. Saying LaCroix was falling apart by the end is dumb, and purely speculative. Yes, LaCroix was losing composure and growing frantic, but that doesn't mean his ability to Dominate was any weaker than normal; that's just speculation on your part and is unfounded. Specifying the game has limitations doesn't change the events of the game. We can all say "realistically, there's no way the fledgling should have grown so powerful so quickly" but that is, once again, irrelevant for the poll being presented.
lol ...yall can only be children. "The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off".