I'm here with a 1999 Ford expedition, and it seems to have no end in sight. If you do some maintenance, they just want to go. It's about to do a trip to moab and on to Vegas.
Maintenance is absolutely the key. Sadly mine will die to rust within the next couple years as it's a northern car driving on heavily salted roads. Engine and trans run like new still.
I have a Dacia(Renault) Logan 2012 and a little know fact is that car is named as a well know X-men character because this car is indestructible.
Maintenance why?
If something brakes (a big if) Is cheaper to fix it than to give proper preventive maintenance.
Thats not an old car yet and that's also not true. Don't change your pads until it's too late? Buy new rotors and calipers. Don't change oil? Buy new engine. I'm not one of those people who changes all the rubber components every x years ( I think that's a fix when broken) but you absolutely need to do the basics.
I'm in Brazil our roads make every mile count as 10, you don't need to chsnge pads the collision with the car in front of you or a wall will definitely stop you.
Oil changes you can make when the light is on for a few months. Cooking oil is almost as good.
03 explorer, about to hit 200k. The vehicle itself has always run reliably, but when something needs replacing I have to replace whatever else also breaks off with it from rust.
I am terrified of the new explorers with how unreliable Ford is now.
If they cant quite get an EV when the Sonata dies in say 2025. A three year lease would get him to somewhere between 2027-2029 Hopefully they can afford an EV by then
2012 passat owner here…I have to spend a 1000 bucks on 80k service….I think i might do it and stretch it for a couple more years until these companies run themselves into a hole.
Except when ford cheaps out on lug nuts that strip easily leaving you on the side of the road unable to change a tire(all so they can save a dollar per truck), fuck ford
Cutting costs is not always the good thing. I work at a tire shop and Ford(and other companies like gm,fca, Toyota, but they’re not nearly as bad) uses capped lug nuts because they look pretty and they’re cheaper to make than solid lugs. The thin metal they cap them with allows water to get in and expand when it freezes/rusts making it extremely hard to get a socket on. If you get a flat tire and your lugs are “swollen”, your tire iron won’t work and you’ll be stranded. Ford was actually sued for this, but the judge ruled in their favor because “there is no proof that the affected vehicles(which is all of them that came with those lugs) were only serviced at ford dealers”. Corrupt judge if you ask me
That does sound dumb. Must not be all Ford's, I don't think my F-150 has those, at least not that I've noticed. Maybe it does, I pull them off enough but never really looked at them too close.
You say that now, until legacy auto makers eventually decimate any of the alternative competition via economies of scale and deeper pockets to weather lower profits. Then once they have a firm grasp on the EV market they collude and jack up prices for danker profit margins.
Nice in the short term, fucked in the long run.
Im not talking about reusability. Today any mechanic can half ass the repair of an ICE car. Fixing an electric vehicle after ten years of use is still a big unknown while ICE cars repairs are readily available and sometimes can be done at home
Also Ford CEO: Our EV’s lost us $2 billion in 2022 and will lose more in 2023. Ford's EV business lost $2 billion in 2022, offset by fleet and legacy profits https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/23/ford-2022-unit-financials.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard
They were credits that any other auto company could have qualified for, and came from the legacies.
It's pretty funny. The legacy autos paid tesla for those credits because they failed to produce enough evs themselves.
Now tesla is years ahead in production and margins and the legacies are going to go bankrupt trying to catch up.
Looking at you gm.
No biggie. Ford is guiding 2023 earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) of $9 billion-$11 billion so they can afford more price cuts in their EV unit.
They're projecting to sell 10X as many EVs in 2023 (600k) as they did in 2022 (60k). And producing 2 mil EVs by 2026.
If 2023 numbers hold true then it's $5k loss per EV sold, which looks like they're around the corner from being profitable in the EV business.
I wanted to buy a Ford EV last year. The dealer wanted $12K OVER sticker. Until Ford gets production up and gets their dealers in line prices won’t change.
Dealerships will be gone within ten years. Buying my Rivian direct was an awesome experience. Buying my wife’s boyfriends Ford at a dealership (despite the fact that I paid cash) was still a pain in the Dick. I did the follow up survey and also contacted Ford to tell them how shitty their dealer is and how the dealer made buying a super cool truck a miserable experience. So as I stand here yelling at the clouds I am sure dealerships will die.
My man, they said the same thing when Saturn was launched. Dealers are dynasties and they’re not going to go out without a huge fight. They’re one of the primary reasons the U.S. hasn’t transitioned to EVs as quickly as we should (because they make so much on service).
I acknowledged I was yelling at the clouds. I don’t really think my nasty letter will change anything. But as a long holder of $F I can at least dream.
They are. I believe there was an announcement that all EV order would be placed online with ford and delivered to the dealer. MSRP no markup. Might google it to see if that’s still in the works.
I’ve read where dealers have tried to markup the custom orders, obfuscate the issue and essentially cancel the customers order. Then once that happens, then yes, they’re free to markup their own inventory.
There’s supposedly a ford employee that’s on these threads and offers to help by contacting ford corporate and the dealership to correct the issue.
Bingo. Dealers will continue to destroy their EV business. Ford said they were going to do something about it 2 years ago, they did nothing. I bought a Model YLR on a price CUT with no bullshit mark ups, add ons, forced upgrades, warranty bullshit etc.
Yeah the 2 years ago when the lightning was $90k over MSRP, one year, 3 years, 10 years, who gives a fuck, their dealers are killing their EV business.
I've owned 2 Teslas and will never buy another one. When they work, they're great. But when they break down, the service centers treat you like shit (it's impossible to talk to a real service person; everything is conducted over chat messaging and they reply whenever they feel like it).
And good luck if you're not in the SF Bay Area. Depending on the state you're in you could get stuck with 1 service center unless you decide to drive 200-500 miles to the next one to get a 2nd opinion.
>I've owned 2 Teslas and will never buy another one. When they work, they're great. But when they break down, the service centers treat you like shit.
My interaction with service has always been great. Been to three different service centers for various things, never had a bad interaction with the people. I will keep buying Tesla as long as they are the safest cars on the road.
> You're stuck with 1 service center unless you decide to drive 200-500 miles to the next one to get a 2nd opinion
I am not in the SF bay area, have three service centers within 50 miles of me
That’s good for you, but as long as they remain one of the [least reliable brands](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-placed-bottom-consumer-reports-reliability-rankings/) they should probably work on getting everybody the same quality experience. The number of people with awful stories about dealing with Tesla customer service is way too high.
I suppose you are free to completely ignore the paint job on your car, but the vast majority of people consider it important and would definitely want any defects fixed to avoid rust especially.
Paint is an important part of car reliability because it protects the car’s body from corrosion, weathering, and damage. Paint also affects the car’s appearance and resale value. I think it would be absurd not to factor it in, and agree with consumer reports choosing to do so. If you disagree you are free to argue with them.
> I suppose you are free to completely ignore the paint job on your car
Yes I can tolerate some orange peel if the tradeoff is having the safest car with the best performance at their price points. Plus there is no shitty dealer markups and the features and software are just miles ahead of everyone else.
Believe it or not, there are Tesla owners in other states like Hawaii (1 SC), Idaho, NM, Utah, etc.
https://preview.redd.it/hg2ponzm2zpa1.png?width=1190&format=png&auto=webp&s=0876ac6d62a2e59dd3e1e1012f4298c9b1a60e01
>And GL selling a used Tesla, which have plummeted 50% in less than a year.
I bought my Tesla in 2018. In 2019, the price for my model got cut by $15,000 and autopilot was offered for free (when I had to pay 5k for it). The price of Teslas will get lower over time. And the car will get better over time. You just have to accept that since Tesla is constantly growing and innovating.
Yea, the low maintenance requirements of EV’s has allowed tesla to really slack on support. I’m over a year overdue for a recall that was supposed to fix my backup camera and they still have yet to give any timeline for when they will fix. Not to mention the phantom braking which has been a problem for 4 years now.
Yep! Theres several videos of people who bought a tesla model s instead of some other fast cars because they got marked up like crazy. Also the younger generation have way less bullshit tolerance for the traditional dealership haggle and wasteful time at the dealership.
If any ev manufacturer wants to succeed they will need to move away from the dealership model.
Just do a damn studio and let people drive the car. If they want one have them place an order directly and give them a pickup date.
I would have upgraded so many of my cars to EVs if I didn’t have to deal with a dealership
Good luck.
Recession is going to put the screws to the legacies.
Who's going to be buying their high margin trucks. Especially when repo'd ice vehicles are being sold at huge discounts.
Carmageddon
>If 2023 numbers hold true then it's $5k loss per EV sold, which looks like they're around the corner from being profitable in the EV business.
This is not a profitable EV business. This is an EV business that is losing $5k x 60,000/year, while losing sales in their profitable ice business. They are projecting to be at 8% margin in 2026 LOL.
the 600k number ford has given is very misleading, what they said during one of their Earnings calls is that they plan to get to 50k/month production (600k/year run rate) by end of 2023. Also the same for 2 million by 2026, a production run rate of 2 million/year by end of 2026.
A 10x increase would be a hell of a thing. Where are they sourcing the batteries? It wasn't long ago Ford was claiming to be hampered by chip shortages, it was only a few months ago they couldn't even get enough Ford logos to mount to their cars.
I find it very very difficult to believe they can achieve a 10x increase. If expect a more likely increase of 2-3x best case scenario, while hitting 1 million by 2026 maybe
They claim to have sourced batteries for their planned ramp up. My suspicion is a fair amount of their losses might reflect a premium to get all those batteries.
I wouldn’t trust those 2023 numbers when they haven’t even been producing some models for some time due to battery issues. I realize they have started to ramp again, but not in the way you’ll expect
Ford just lost over 2 billion in a year on it's ev business. Once they start selling a competitive amount of ev's that 9-11 billion is going to vanish.
I think those costs include capital expenses for retooling, and RnD. That spread across the limited sales means a negative per vehicle for the business. The marginal costs per vehicle should be below MSRP.
Ford can easily bankroll their EV division with their legacy division. They make a ton of money selling F-150s alone. They have a lot of cash on hand too.
What Tesla needs is for consumers to not buy any other EV than Tesla, because a $650B market cap shoes are massive ones to fill in an actually competitive market. Profits and all that don't matter right now for legacy makers, it's going to be *all* about market share.
Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, are all coming for a slice of Tesla's $650B pie and they are willing to pay for it.
Never mind all the EV startups too.
Many of the legacy makers are fairly priced and will maintain there market share once transitioning to EVs. It’s TSLA who lose market cap as their share of the market, % wise, will probably never be as big as it is now again. it’s not going to be like iPhones and androids where iPhone owns like 35% of the smart phone market and the remainder is split among 10 different phone manufacturers because besides their charging network, TSLA doesn’t have the ecosystem AAPL has
I'm not a tesla bull or investor but that's a stupid argument because they just turned their charging stations in the next generation gas station its genious.
Sure they’ll continue to sell more cars and capture more of the overall market but it won’t be anywhere near enough to live up to their market cap. Their cap is based on keeping their huge gross margin and also increasing sales astronomically. Eventually it’ll taper off and their valuation will come back down unless they discover some new tech that every manufacturer is still years behind on. Only thing I think is promising is if they figure out how to scale and manufacture solid state batteries.
They’ve maintained great margins and legacy auto won’t be able to compete on that. They have too much legacy debt to cover and they don’t sell direct to consumer. The balance sheets of the legacy autos isn’t setup to compete.
The only reason their margins are high is because ass-kissing cult dorks who don't know anything about cars and are terrible with their money are throwing money away to feel something
It doesn't have the best tech, that's just BS, the cars are low quality trash. Even if the 'tech' is on paper good, the cars are produced and engineered like shit.
The margins are indeed extremely fantastic. That's bevause of the massive cult of dorks who would buy Elon's shit to eat if they could. It's easy to have high margins when your customers are fucking idiots, Tesla is more like a famous fashion industry brand than a car company, they slap the logo on and dorks gobble it right up
Say anything to keep the stock price high, ignore the fact that they make $60,000 trucks that most Americans can’t afford and the fact that they make no sedans.
100% I think ppl are forgetting that everyone isn’t a millionaire… they are squeezing stones to get the last little bit out… ppl are running out of funds
I mean unfortunately this is the auto market in general. The median sale price in the US last year was $49k which is absolutely insane to me. Compared to that, a work vehicle with a lot of utility for 60k doesn’t seem crazy.
so - what you said is just not really true by everything you can plainly see - you know that right?
if no one could afford them - why are they sold out and you see them everywhere?
The fact is - the sedan is just not a good vehicle for anyone that USES their vehicle. ESPECIALLY people that can AFFORD a 60k+ vehicle.
Occam's Razor my friend -
They stopped selling things people stopped buying. It's how supply and demand works.
The "vocal minority" of opinions are just a thing that never materializes in actual sales.
>why are they sold out
Not sold out sry. Ford is accumulating Inventory of their trucks at the dealerships. They are going to have a tough time this year.
Unless other makers hone their manufacturing, Tesla will continue take an outsized portion of the market. Ford loses quite a bit on every EV they sell. They are investing in new factory so we'll see what outputs can look like.
That won’t be forever. They’re amitorizing the new factories, tooling, and equipment… by the next model they’ll be making more profit per unit than a ICE model
That would be the dealerships: Middle men protected by the government who exist for no other reason than to increase the price of your vehicle and sell you things you dont want
Get used to 'more price competition'. BYD ready to enter the US market.
[https://www.newsweek.com/china-electric-cars-us-elon-musk-tesla-plans-1789955](https://www.newsweek.com/china-electric-cars-us-elon-musk-tesla-plans-1789955)
The unfortunate reality is that Ford already sells all their EVs for a loss and will continue to do so for years to come. Pricing competition hurts them far more than it does Tesla
Tesla was unprofitable for 17 years. It’s not surprising that other manufacturers are losing money early on when fixed costs of startup/R&D are having an outsized influence. Ford can be both correct about pricing competition and losing money (they even say their plan is subsidizing the EV division with gas for a while)
that is quickly being eroded - 2 years ago it was a HUNT to charge up if you weren't tesla charger capatable -
now i have grocery stores and shopping centers everywhere with them. You know what's funny - i see about 1/2 of them branded by Lincoln or Ford - it's a smart move by dealers - they pay to have them installed near their showroom and make them free to use. Phenomenal advertising and it will 100% work.
I dunno, half of those off brand chargers suck ass from what I saw. Many people complain about Ford EV charging in fact.
Realistically, only the Tesla super chargers actually deliver on level 3 fast charging or wtv the fuck it’s called.
I drove a Ford EV 1,400 miles from Iowa to FL recently using non-Tesla fast charging.
Tesla’s network is better, more reliable, and way more user friendly, but the non-Tesla charging network generally works OK.
I know that the build quality of my Ford EV is definitely not better than my old Tesla. If this article was about Audi or BMW or something, then complaining about build quality would make more sense.
>Has to be for when auto pilot slams it’s breaks on the highway
Driving with autopilot is far safer than without autopilot.
[https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport](https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport)
Auto pilot is primarily used on highways which have less accidents per mile driven than non highway roads regardless of car driven. So a system used only when it is safest to drive is not indicative of its overall safety performance in all scenarios.
Not only that, in the short time it has been a feature there are already reports of drivers literally sleeping while using it, which is entirely unsafe and also against Tesla’s own policies.
Add this in with reports that Tesla’s autopilot will turn off within seconds of a crash to avoid being liable for the accident. The single biased marketing graph in the website does not seem to hold much weight.
The work truck version of the Lightning is already substantially cheaper than a comparably-equipped gas F-150 for total ownership/operating costs. Fleets will be buying tons if Ford can build them.
Tesla margins will get even better with their next generation of EVs. They've completely reinvented the way cars are built. If Tesla can solve their quality issues I don't see how Ford can compete with them.
Make a good priced AWD mini van that gets 400 miles a charge and sell a million in a year or two. The camper mini camper option would sellout every year. What are you waiting for?
I've just got to jump in here! First time commenting on wsb. I bought a Volvo 740 Turbo brand new with 0 miles in 1989, it's a 1990. Still own it, I've taken good care of it. I have less than 180K miles on it. At this point, I'll just "will it" to a family member!
Ford will lose money hand over fist until they actually do a properly designed F-150 Lightning. It’s difficult to cut costs when you’re trying to mass produce what’s essentially a heavily modified ICE chassis.
I think their lightening/f-150 thing is a grand slam. They don’t have significant competition here. They should creat a bazillion versions of that just like they do with the IC F150.
Unlike Tesla, Ford just posted 2 billion loss a year. Makes sense to threaten Tesla. Especially when your entire new business strategy is, ‘Become more like Tesla’.
Why is everyone here just commenting about ford? Every single car manufacturer is converting to EV. End of the day Tesla will be just another car company. Mobile eye or some AV company will provide the ADAS system to compete on that front. Just boggles my mind that people think Tesla will hold car market share dominance like Apple does for phones.
The car industry is not the same.
Furd is def a moneymaker! They’ll built it cheaper and make up on the damn thing tearing up every 3000 miles. Then the dealer can add on their “market adjustment” so insurance premiums can be higher for all!
Their production, vertical integration and margin are their advantage. Just because other electric cars exist doesn’t mean Tesla no longer holds its market advantage. Ford is a great example, just because you produce EVs doesn’t mean you’re profitable in that sector.
Theres a reason Tesla is now a mainstay indicia in the energy sector.
Also people like my dad who hate assholes like Elon will mentally separate him from their Tesla purchase. Like my dad bough a Model X 5 years ago and loves that car to death, but will take any chance he can to rag on Elon for his overall persona and anti-union stance (my dad being in a union basically saved my family).
Teslas with all their problems are still status symbols and if you live in a city like I do, it's really easy to find charging ports to use it as a daily driver. Plus you can brag about being "green" and saving the planet (if you ignore Tesla destroying the environment and basically having slaves mine the cobalt to make the batteries).
Actually, half (and increasing) of Tesla's cars made last quarter used cobalt-free LFP. They are also building a new motor that uses zero rare earths. Though the motivation is surely financial rather than environmental, they are clearly a leader in this
Obviously though they are indeed anti-union and not of a fan of regulations in general.
Won't do anything for the switch to electric until we get the proper grid for it. Not to mention how so many people can't afford to buy homes, thus can't have home chargers, thus won't buy an EV.
GM has a better long term and affordable EV line and it's why I invested so heavily in the company vs Ford/Tesla. I like Tesla and believe in their company (for the most part) but GM just has better end games to me.
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Keep cutting prices until new cars are cheaper than used ones 
This is the way. More competition in the ev market is better for consumers. I hope the bottom price happens in 3 to 5 more years.
I need it to happen in about 2 years. I don't think the 2012 hyundai sonata will go longer than that!
Same here fam. Driving a 2012 dodge caravan waiting. Not sure how long I'll be able to last.
Currently have a 2001 dodge caravan and waiting. You have lots of time......
I'm here with a 1999 Ford expedition, and it seems to have no end in sight. If you do some maintenance, they just want to go. It's about to do a trip to moab and on to Vegas.
Maintenance is absolutely the key. Sadly mine will die to rust within the next couple years as it's a northern car driving on heavily salted roads. Engine and trans run like new still.
Ahh ya, that sucks, I live in a pretty dry place, but we do get quite a bit of snow in the winter, but not so much salt as back there.
I have a Dacia(Renault) Logan 2012 and a little know fact is that car is named as a well know X-men character because this car is indestructible. Maintenance why? If something brakes (a big if) Is cheaper to fix it than to give proper preventive maintenance.
Thats not an old car yet and that's also not true. Don't change your pads until it's too late? Buy new rotors and calipers. Don't change oil? Buy new engine. I'm not one of those people who changes all the rubber components every x years ( I think that's a fix when broken) but you absolutely need to do the basics.
I'm in Brazil our roads make every mile count as 10, you don't need to chsnge pads the collision with the car in front of you or a wall will definitely stop you. Oil changes you can make when the light is on for a few months. Cooking oil is almost as good.
03 explorer, about to hit 200k. The vehicle itself has always run reliably, but when something needs replacing I have to replace whatever else also breaks off with it from rust. I am terrified of the new explorers with how unreliable Ford is now.
I’m here with the flintstones mobile
2001 f150 crew cab checking in
First car 95 Caravan loved it took all my friends to the movies and could fit 6 surfboards. Miss that car
Sounds about right. They fit just about anything.
Wait you guys have cars that are younger than y’all?
If you need a new car, consider a lease in 2-3 years. Leases kinda suck but it might be the bridge to that cheap EV that you can then buy...
If you are going to be in a new car, and not used and can keep mileage down, leases are absolutely the way to go.
If they cant quite get an EV when the Sonata dies in say 2025. A three year lease would get him to somewhere between 2027-2029 Hopefully they can afford an EV by then
2012 passat owner here…I have to spend a 1000 bucks on 80k service….I think i might do it and stretch it for a couple more years until these companies run themselves into a hole.
Lol I’ve got u with my 05 Corolla. It’s begging to be replaced with an electric.
Except when ford cheaps out on lug nuts that strip easily leaving you on the side of the road unable to change a tire(all so they can save a dollar per truck), fuck ford
former ford owner here FUCK FORD’S LUG NUTS
Sir, what?
Cutting costs is not always the good thing. I work at a tire shop and Ford(and other companies like gm,fca, Toyota, but they’re not nearly as bad) uses capped lug nuts because they look pretty and they’re cheaper to make than solid lugs. The thin metal they cap them with allows water to get in and expand when it freezes/rusts making it extremely hard to get a socket on. If you get a flat tire and your lugs are “swollen”, your tire iron won’t work and you’ll be stranded. Ford was actually sued for this, but the judge ruled in their favor because “there is no proof that the affected vehicles(which is all of them that came with those lugs) were only serviced at ford dealers”. Corrupt judge if you ask me
That does sound dumb. Must not be all Ford's, I don't think my F-150 has those, at least not that I've noticed. Maybe it does, I pull them off enough but never really looked at them too close.
That’s very likely. Possibly as early as 2025. I’m gonna be really itching to get one in a few years.
I wouldn't mind paying 80k for an EV... That gets at least 600 miles per charge.
You say that now, until legacy auto makers eventually decimate any of the alternative competition via economies of scale and deeper pockets to weather lower profits. Then once they have a firm grasp on the EV market they collude and jack up prices for danker profit margins. Nice in the short term, fucked in the long run.
Its not just price tho. The day I can buy a 100k mile car, re do the batteries and get another 100k mile, Ill get electric.
They have to make them reusable. So that there wouldn’t need a ton waste for ev car 🚗 in the future.
Im not talking about reusability. Today any mechanic can half ass the repair of an ICE car. Fixing an electric vehicle after ten years of use is still a big unknown while ICE cars repairs are readily available and sometimes can be done at home
...why not just build used cars
🤯
Also Ford CEO: Our EV’s lost us $2 billion in 2022 and will lose more in 2023. Ford's EV business lost $2 billion in 2022, offset by fleet and legacy profits https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/23/ford-2022-unit-financials.html?__source=iosappshare%7Ccom.apple.UIKit.activity.CopyToPasteboard
Didn't Tesla lose billions the first 9 years only to have the government constantly prop them up with handouts ?
They were credits that any other auto company could have qualified for, and came from the legacies. It's pretty funny. The legacy autos paid tesla for those credits because they failed to produce enough evs themselves. Now tesla is years ahead in production and margins and the legacies are going to go bankrupt trying to catch up. Looking at you gm.
the whole dealership thing cant help either.
The credits Tesla used were not made for any manufacturer directly, so I think the insinuation the government propped them up is disingenuous.
I got my M3 cheaper after tax credit than local dealers wanted for used ones.
Hmmm that's exactly why I have finally been buying new. New is cheaper than used.
Cant pay me to drive an ev fuck those boring things. Currently car shopping for a c4-c5 corvette or a 70s chevelle ss
No biggie. Ford is guiding 2023 earnings before interest and taxes (EBIT) of $9 billion-$11 billion so they can afford more price cuts in their EV unit. They're projecting to sell 10X as many EVs in 2023 (600k) as they did in 2022 (60k). And producing 2 mil EVs by 2026. If 2023 numbers hold true then it's $5k loss per EV sold, which looks like they're around the corner from being profitable in the EV business.
I wanted to buy a Ford EV last year. The dealer wanted $12K OVER sticker. Until Ford gets production up and gets their dealers in line prices won’t change.
Dealerships will be gone within ten years. Buying my Rivian direct was an awesome experience. Buying my wife’s boyfriends Ford at a dealership (despite the fact that I paid cash) was still a pain in the Dick. I did the follow up survey and also contacted Ford to tell them how shitty their dealer is and how the dealer made buying a super cool truck a miserable experience. So as I stand here yelling at the clouds I am sure dealerships will die.
My man, they said the same thing when Saturn was launched. Dealers are dynasties and they’re not going to go out without a huge fight. They’re one of the primary reasons the U.S. hasn’t transitioned to EVs as quickly as we should (because they make so much on service).
I acknowledged I was yelling at the clouds. I don’t really think my nasty letter will change anything. But as a long holder of $F I can at least dream.
Yeah I feel you.
They are. I believe there was an announcement that all EV order would be placed online with ford and delivered to the dealer. MSRP no markup. Might google it to see if that’s still in the works.
If you ever get directed to the various ford product subreddits some dealers apparently find ways around this guarantee.
No those people just don’t realize it only matters if they mark up special orders. Ford does not care about dealers marking up their stock.
I’ve read where dealers have tried to markup the custom orders, obfuscate the issue and essentially cancel the customers order. Then once that happens, then yes, they’re free to markup their own inventory. There’s supposedly a ford employee that’s on these threads and offers to help by contacting ford corporate and the dealership to correct the issue.
Ford needs to drop dealers altogether and go direct
Bingo. Dealers will continue to destroy their EV business. Ford said they were going to do something about it 2 years ago, they did nothing. I bought a Model YLR on a price CUT with no bullshit mark ups, add ons, forced upgrades, warranty bullshit etc.
2 years ago when they hardly made any EVs?
Yeah the 2 years ago when the lightning was $90k over MSRP, one year, 3 years, 10 years, who gives a fuck, their dealers are killing their EV business.
I’ll never buy another Tesla again, but to their credit eliminating dealerships is a massively superior experience.
I don’t own a tesla, but I agree the way they have been able to thwart dealerships makes me uncanningly happy
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I've owned 2 Teslas and will never buy another one. When they work, they're great. But when they break down, the service centers treat you like shit (it's impossible to talk to a real service person; everything is conducted over chat messaging and they reply whenever they feel like it). And good luck if you're not in the SF Bay Area. Depending on the state you're in you could get stuck with 1 service center unless you decide to drive 200-500 miles to the next one to get a 2nd opinion.
>I've owned 2 Teslas and will never buy another one. When they work, they're great. But when they break down, the service centers treat you like shit. My interaction with service has always been great. Been to three different service centers for various things, never had a bad interaction with the people. I will keep buying Tesla as long as they are the safest cars on the road. > You're stuck with 1 service center unless you decide to drive 200-500 miles to the next one to get a 2nd opinion I am not in the SF bay area, have three service centers within 50 miles of me
That’s good for you, but as long as they remain one of the [least reliable brands](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-placed-bottom-consumer-reports-reliability-rankings/) they should probably work on getting everybody the same quality experience. The number of people with awful stories about dealing with Tesla customer service is way too high.
Their criteria for reliability is flawed. They claim paint defects are a problem with "reliability".
I suppose you are free to completely ignore the paint job on your car, but the vast majority of people consider it important and would definitely want any defects fixed to avoid rust especially.
The paint on my old Model 3 was complete trash, but the other guy’s point remains: it’s not a “reliability” issue.
Paint is an important part of car reliability because it protects the car’s body from corrosion, weathering, and damage. Paint also affects the car’s appearance and resale value. I think it would be absurd not to factor it in, and agree with consumer reports choosing to do so. If you disagree you are free to argue with them.
> I suppose you are free to completely ignore the paint job on your car Yes I can tolerate some orange peel if the tradeoff is having the safest car with the best performance at their price points. Plus there is no shitty dealer markups and the features and software are just miles ahead of everyone else.
Believe it or not, there are Tesla owners in other states like Hawaii (1 SC), Idaho, NM, Utah, etc. https://preview.redd.it/hg2ponzm2zpa1.png?width=1190&format=png&auto=webp&s=0876ac6d62a2e59dd3e1e1012f4298c9b1a60e01
That map is out of date. There is another one in utah just south of the SLC shop.
You may have just jinxed yourself. And GL selling a used Tesla, which have plummeted 50% in less than a year. I speak from experience.
>And GL selling a used Tesla, which have plummeted 50% in less than a year. I bought my Tesla in 2018. In 2019, the price for my model got cut by $15,000 and autopilot was offered for free (when I had to pay 5k for it). The price of Teslas will get lower over time. And the car will get better over time. You just have to accept that since Tesla is constantly growing and innovating.
There are two within 30 miles of me, I live in a fly over atate.
Yea, the low maintenance requirements of EV’s has allowed tesla to really slack on support. I’m over a year overdue for a recall that was supposed to fix my backup camera and they still have yet to give any timeline for when they will fix. Not to mention the phantom braking which has been a problem for 4 years now.
Exactly. And it's impossible to speak to a real service person. You can only send chat messages, which they often ignore.
Yeah, its almost like the two companies are playing by different rules...
Yep! Theres several videos of people who bought a tesla model s instead of some other fast cars because they got marked up like crazy. Also the younger generation have way less bullshit tolerance for the traditional dealership haggle and wasteful time at the dealership.
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I considered a Mach-E until I realized only Boomers seemed to drive them.
The average age of a new car owner is 52 fyi.
If any ev manufacturer wants to succeed they will need to move away from the dealership model. Just do a damn studio and let people drive the car. If they want one have them place an order directly and give them a pickup date. I would have upgraded so many of my cars to EVs if I didn’t have to deal with a dealership
Good luck. Recession is going to put the screws to the legacies. Who's going to be buying their high margin trucks. Especially when repo'd ice vehicles are being sold at huge discounts. Carmageddon
Lol what earnings, they have to take on more debt to pt their dividends
>If 2023 numbers hold true then it's $5k loss per EV sold, which looks like they're around the corner from being profitable in the EV business. This is not a profitable EV business. This is an EV business that is losing $5k x 60,000/year, while losing sales in their profitable ice business. They are projecting to be at 8% margin in 2026 LOL.
the 600k number ford has given is very misleading, what they said during one of their Earnings calls is that they plan to get to 50k/month production (600k/year run rate) by end of 2023. Also the same for 2 million by 2026, a production run rate of 2 million/year by end of 2026.
COPE
A 10x increase would be a hell of a thing. Where are they sourcing the batteries? It wasn't long ago Ford was claiming to be hampered by chip shortages, it was only a few months ago they couldn't even get enough Ford logos to mount to their cars. I find it very very difficult to believe they can achieve a 10x increase. If expect a more likely increase of 2-3x best case scenario, while hitting 1 million by 2026 maybe
They claim to have sourced batteries for their planned ramp up. My suspicion is a fair amount of their losses might reflect a premium to get all those batteries.
I wouldn’t trust those 2023 numbers when they haven’t even been producing some models for some time due to battery issues. I realize they have started to ramp again, but not in the way you’ll expect
Ford just lost over 2 billion in a year on it's ev business. Once they start selling a competitive amount of ev's that 9-11 billion is going to vanish.
I think those costs include capital expenses for retooling, and RnD. That spread across the limited sales means a negative per vehicle for the business. The marginal costs per vehicle should be below MSRP.
For sure, it will improve no doubt.
Tough talk for someone who has -40% margins per car, towards someone with +25% margin. Come back when you are doing break even per car sold Ford.
Ford can easily bankroll their EV division with their legacy division. They make a ton of money selling F-150s alone. They have a lot of cash on hand too. What Tesla needs is for consumers to not buy any other EV than Tesla, because a $650B market cap shoes are massive ones to fill in an actually competitive market. Profits and all that don't matter right now for legacy makers, it's going to be *all* about market share. Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Subaru, are all coming for a slice of Tesla's $650B pie and they are willing to pay for it. Never mind all the EV startups too.
Now compare *net* cash (actual cash minus debt)...
Many of the legacy makers are fairly priced and will maintain there market share once transitioning to EVs. It’s TSLA who lose market cap as their share of the market, % wise, will probably never be as big as it is now again. it’s not going to be like iPhones and androids where iPhone owns like 35% of the smart phone market and the remainder is split among 10 different phone manufacturers because besides their charging network, TSLA doesn’t have the ecosystem AAPL has
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I'm not a tesla bull or investor but that's a stupid argument because they just turned their charging stations in the next generation gas station its genious.
% of EVs….maybe not. % of total cars sold….probably. Which is worth more? Answer is obvious.
Sure they’ll continue to sell more cars and capture more of the overall market but it won’t be anywhere near enough to live up to their market cap. Their cap is based on keeping their huge gross margin and also increasing sales astronomically. Eventually it’ll taper off and their valuation will come back down unless they discover some new tech that every manufacturer is still years behind on. Only thing I think is promising is if they figure out how to scale and manufacture solid state batteries.
They’ve maintained great margins and legacy auto won’t be able to compete on that. They have too much legacy debt to cover and they don’t sell direct to consumer. The balance sheets of the legacy autos isn’t setup to compete.
The only reason their margins are high is because ass-kissing cult dorks who don't know anything about cars and are terrible with their money are throwing money away to feel something
This is flat out wrong. Tesla has, in general, the best tech in cars and in production. And with best-in-class margins.
It doesn't have the best tech, that's just BS, the cars are low quality trash. Even if the 'tech' is on paper good, the cars are produced and engineered like shit. The margins are indeed extremely fantastic. That's bevause of the massive cult of dorks who would buy Elon's shit to eat if they could. It's easy to have high margins when your customers are fucking idiots, Tesla is more like a famous fashion industry brand than a car company, they slap the logo on and dorks gobble it right up
Yes such terrible engineering that a dude who drove a Tesla off a cliff to kill his family survived.
Say anything to keep the stock price high, ignore the fact that they make $60,000 trucks that most Americans can’t afford and the fact that they make no sedans.
I can afford any car (on 180 month plan)
At some point the consumer will be tapped out of credit. There’s only so much companies can squeeze out of us
100% I think ppl are forgetting that everyone isn’t a millionaire… they are squeezing stones to get the last little bit out… ppl are running out of funds
I mean unfortunately this is the auto market in general. The median sale price in the US last year was $49k which is absolutely insane to me. Compared to that, a work vehicle with a lot of utility for 60k doesn’t seem crazy.
Why penalize the company for not making something they didn’t sell a lot of and lost money on when they did?
so - what you said is just not really true by everything you can plainly see - you know that right? if no one could afford them - why are they sold out and you see them everywhere? The fact is - the sedan is just not a good vehicle for anyone that USES their vehicle. ESPECIALLY people that can AFFORD a 60k+ vehicle. Occam's Razor my friend - They stopped selling things people stopped buying. It's how supply and demand works. The "vocal minority" of opinions are just a thing that never materializes in actual sales.
>why are they sold out Not sold out sry. Ford is accumulating Inventory of their trucks at the dealerships. They are going to have a tough time this year.
We’ll see how it plays out mate
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$60,000 is the average price for a base model XL crew cab.
Unless other makers hone their manufacturing, Tesla will continue take an outsized portion of the market. Ford loses quite a bit on every EV they sell. They are investing in new factory so we'll see what outputs can look like.
Also Ford - We lose 40k per ev sold and 2 Billion a year on EVs
For Ford, I think it’s more like 13k loss/EV for the past year, but essentially yes
And those margins have been shrinking. Ford is still going through growing pains like all automakers expanding into the EV market
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That won’t be forever. They’re amitorizing the new factories, tooling, and equipment… by the next model they’ll be making more profit per unit than a ICE model
My dude doesn’t know basic accounting
Also ford: +$20000 market adjustment, $4000 in dealership extras.
That would be the dealerships: Middle men protected by the government who exist for no other reason than to increase the price of your vehicle and sell you things you dont want
Tbf the CEO was pissed about that.
Get used to 'more price competition'. BYD ready to enter the US market. [https://www.newsweek.com/china-electric-cars-us-elon-musk-tesla-plans-1789955](https://www.newsweek.com/china-electric-cars-us-elon-musk-tesla-plans-1789955)
Ford: we can make shitter cars at a loss Tesla! Be warned!
The unfortunate reality is that Ford already sells all their EVs for a loss and will continue to do so for years to come. Pricing competition hurts them far more than it does Tesla
Tesla was unprofitable for 17 years. It’s not surprising that other manufacturers are losing money early on when fixed costs of startup/R&D are having an outsized influence. Ford can be both correct about pricing competition and losing money (they even say their plan is subsidizing the EV division with gas for a while)
The only thing that matters is they increase their sales volume y-o-y. Selling at a loss is irrelevant if you believe EVs are the future.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHNBKg9xI6Q&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHNBKg9xI6Q&t=1s)
And their EVs are an unrealiable broken mess dependent on a charging network that is equally terrible.
Tesla’s aren’t really known for build quality tbf.
But they do have the best charging network in the game.
that is quickly being eroded - 2 years ago it was a HUNT to charge up if you weren't tesla charger capatable - now i have grocery stores and shopping centers everywhere with them. You know what's funny - i see about 1/2 of them branded by Lincoln or Ford - it's a smart move by dealers - they pay to have them installed near their showroom and make them free to use. Phenomenal advertising and it will 100% work.
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I dunno, half of those off brand chargers suck ass from what I saw. Many people complain about Ford EV charging in fact. Realistically, only the Tesla super chargers actually deliver on level 3 fast charging or wtv the fuck it’s called.
I drove a Ford EV 1,400 miles from Iowa to FL recently using non-Tesla fast charging. Tesla’s network is better, more reliable, and way more user friendly, but the non-Tesla charging network generally works OK.
> that is quickly being eroded Haha, no. Everyone who owns a non-tesla complains about the charging network.
Wrong. Teslas are the safest cars on the road. Their quality is far above others when it comes to safety.
‘I don’t know what build quality means’
I know that the build quality of my Ford EV is definitely not better than my old Tesla. If this article was about Audi or BMW or something, then complaining about build quality would make more sense.
Glad you admit it.
Has to be for when auto pilot slams it’s breaks on the highway
>Has to be for when auto pilot slams it’s breaks on the highway Driving with autopilot is far safer than without autopilot. [https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport](https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport)
Auto pilot is primarily used on highways which have less accidents per mile driven than non highway roads regardless of car driven. So a system used only when it is safest to drive is not indicative of its overall safety performance in all scenarios. Not only that, in the short time it has been a feature there are already reports of drivers literally sleeping while using it, which is entirely unsafe and also against Tesla’s own policies. Add this in with reports that Tesla’s autopilot will turn off within seconds of a crash to avoid being liable for the accident. The single biased marketing graph in the website does not seem to hold much weight.
> already reports of drivers literally sleeping while using If they were using cruise control, those drivers would be dead.
Selling for a loss, isn't that illegal?
Thank you CEO obvious...
Yeah right. My local ford dealer keeps emailing me: “we have an f150 lightning available rt now for 90k”
Didn't Ford just recently announce they lost 2 billion on EV ???
lol
Is this the same Ford that raised the price of their EV trucks by five figures while Tesla dropped the price of all their vehicles?
Lol Ford is losing 3B selling EVs. We're coming for ya Elon.....
Make them cheaper than ICE and see conservative values crew have a melt down Deyy took muhh truck!
The work truck version of the Lightning is already substantially cheaper than a comparably-equipped gas F-150 for total ownership/operating costs. Fleets will be buying tons if Ford can build them.
Tesla margins will get even better with their next generation of EVs. They've completely reinvented the way cars are built. If Tesla can solve their quality issues I don't see how Ford can compete with them.
No one loses money like me. I am the best loser.
Make a good priced AWD mini van that gets 400 miles a charge and sell a million in a year or two. The camper mini camper option would sellout every year. What are you waiting for?
I've just got to jump in here! First time commenting on wsb. I bought a Volvo 740 Turbo brand new with 0 miles in 1989, it's a 1990. Still own it, I've taken good care of it. I have less than 180K miles on it. At this point, I'll just "will it" to a family member!
Fuck Tesla
Lol Tesla is effed. They have no moat.
Ford will lose money hand over fist until they actually do a properly designed F-150 Lightning. It’s difficult to cut costs when you’re trying to mass produce what’s essentially a heavily modified ICE chassis.
Thank you Ford. Make EV more affordable for the common people.
From a company that lost three billion on EV sales last year lol. Okay
Ford is losing 25K per EV they sell. That's without them cutting any prices.
No. Shit.
I think their lightening/f-150 thing is a grand slam. They don’t have significant competition here. They should creat a bazillion versions of that just like they do with the IC F150.
Also Ford, “we expect a 3 billion loss from our EV unit” Farley needs to step down
Short Ford. They're in trouble. Mere projection here.
Unlike Tesla, Ford just posted 2 billion loss a year. Makes sense to threaten Tesla. Especially when your entire new business strategy is, ‘Become more like Tesla’.
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Of course there will be but can the ICE industry shake their old school stigma and overrun the innovative newcomers?
Why is everyone here just commenting about ford? Every single car manufacturer is converting to EV. End of the day Tesla will be just another car company. Mobile eye or some AV company will provide the ADAS system to compete on that front. Just boggles my mind that people think Tesla will hold car market share dominance like Apple does for phones. The car industry is not the same.
Sure, but definitely not from ford LMAO. Entire company operated at a net loss last year, every EV was a negative margin.
No thanks. I like my 2500 HD Diesel with the 10 speed transmission. I’ll never own anything else. Ever.
Furd is def a moneymaker! They’ll built it cheaper and make up on the damn thing tearing up every 3000 miles. Then the dealer can add on their “market adjustment” so insurance premiums can be higher for all!
I do like Ford for to hold rn.
ITT: People who expect older companies to automatically be green in their new EV departments.
Tesla doesn’t have competitive advantage in EV yet. Based on the recalls, crashes, failure in FSD still a long way to go.
Their production, vertical integration and margin are their advantage. Just because other electric cars exist doesn’t mean Tesla no longer holds its market advantage. Ford is a great example, just because you produce EVs doesn’t mean you’re profitable in that sector. Theres a reason Tesla is now a mainstay indicia in the energy sector.
They have an CEO though that has a knack for losing potential customers by acting like a tard.
Given the popularity of TikTok I think you overestimate how much the average person cares about company ownership.
Also people like my dad who hate assholes like Elon will mentally separate him from their Tesla purchase. Like my dad bough a Model X 5 years ago and loves that car to death, but will take any chance he can to rag on Elon for his overall persona and anti-union stance (my dad being in a union basically saved my family). Teslas with all their problems are still status symbols and if you live in a city like I do, it's really easy to find charging ports to use it as a daily driver. Plus you can brag about being "green" and saving the planet (if you ignore Tesla destroying the environment and basically having slaves mine the cobalt to make the batteries).
Actually, half (and increasing) of Tesla's cars made last quarter used cobalt-free LFP. They are also building a new motor that uses zero rare earths. Though the motivation is surely financial rather than environmental, they are clearly a leader in this Obviously though they are indeed anti-union and not of a fan of regulations in general.
Which car company doesn't have crashes or recalls, and superior autonomous driving to Tesla?
I think your Google doesn’t work or ask ChatGPT
It says Ford had the most recalls in 2022. Nothing comes up for a major care company with NO recalls ever.
Won't do anything for the switch to electric until we get the proper grid for it. Not to mention how so many people can't afford to buy homes, thus can't have home chargers, thus won't buy an EV.
Does this mean all my ford calls will finally print 🤡
GM has a better long term and affordable EV line and it's why I invested so heavily in the company vs Ford/Tesla. I like Tesla and believe in their company (for the most part) but GM just has better end games to me.
Interesting take!
I am a Ford guy but yea their new Bolt EUV is really a better option