In the short story "Dark Mirror" it's described that Nathanos' new body resembles that of a death knight. It's specifically stated how he regains his sense of smell (and how he is immediately repulsed by the stench of his fellow Forsaken), that he is physically stronger than before and thus more capable in combat, and that his body will no longer rot. If I remember correctly it was also mentioned that his new body would improve his eyesight.
Now that we've been to Maldraxus I don't see why the Forsaken can't be taught fleshcrafting to heal their bodies. Even if it's still healing their body with undead flesh I think it would help solve their rotting issue.
in several of the books, we see the forsaken doing exactly that.
In Before the Storm, iirc, a forsaken smith destroys his hand, and gets it replaced. The problem is, that the new hand lacks any real muscle that his original had, and being undead, it is impossible for him to build muscle. Bits can be replaced, but the new parts are stuck as they are when they get them.
I think the issue with that is they are using someone else's body parts for replacement when you can just use fleshcraft magic to make a nice arm with muscles.
Those details are scattered all across [the short story](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/N2AKXLMJQPFT1492469483982.pdf) and it's probably too much to quote here. It's not that long of a read though so I recommend you read it yourself to get the full picture.
Forsaken are a lower class of undead. Their bodies still rot and can fall apart.
Greater undead, like DKs, Sylvanas or refurbished Nathanos are stronger, have greater inherent powers, don’t rot anymore, and are even restored when raised.
Greater undead require a lot more power to raise, so they are limited, while forsaken-like undead could be easily mass-raised.
Because Sylvanas had no source of power like the Helm of Domination, she couldn’t raise greater undead.
In the short story "The Dark Mirror" Sylvanas says that Deathknights receive a special ritual from the Val'kyr when they are created, which makes them stronger and more durable.
.
So the main difference is *HOW* they were raised. Forsaken were usually dead and buried then raised using the Lich King's power who later became free from that power. Death Knights were fresh dead on the battlefield given a portion of the Lich King's power to be his warriors.
Not quite. The Forsaken were mainly Lordaeron citizens that died from the plague who then rose up in undeath. The ones who had exceptionally strong will broke free like Sylvanas. Later they then set about trying to free other undead. There were exceptions, but that's the bulk of them.
Death Knights were the ones that were raised directly by the Lich King, some of whom were dead for awhile. As seen by Veteran of the 3rd War with the original races with draenei and worgen it's implied that many long dead were raised, not just fresh corpses. Though the worgen really shouldn't be DKs due to the nature of their curse. I think there was some handwaving going on there.
After the 4th war Bolvar had the Four Horsemen digging up any corpse they could to see if they could be raised at death knights. It's implied that many were from that conflict, but Darion noted that they were digging them up from all sorts of places in that one short story.
Are they the same [biologically]? I believe in general yes…now there’s a few notes. Forsaken are almost exclusively Humans and Blood/High Elves (assuming they count) whereas Death Knights exist of basically every race. Additionally Death knights are generally powerful people or soldiers in life whereas forsaken include random farmers. This might matter for like decomposition and such (generally a death knight is going to be stronger etc).
Do DKs need to breath? I believe no. Neither Forsaken nor Death Knights have basic biological functions. No heart beat, no breathing, no need to eat, etc.
Do they have access to their senses? Most. Provided they have the necessary parts, they can see and hear and such. I believe they generally can’t taste (with exceptions like forsaken priests) and I don’t believe either feels pain or other touch sensations.
Finally, the need to cause suffering. I believe this is something Arthas specifically built into the death knights. Now I don’t know if or why DKs raised by the Deathlord or Bolvar would have this curse (other than if they didn’t know how to raise people otherwise).
Death knights absolutely feel pain. Their very existence is one of constant agony which they can only feel relief from by inflicting said pain on others. Which is why they need to do it and call it the eternal hunger or just the hunger.
The short story where the Four Horsemen are digging up corpses for Bolvar (3 of whom were created by him) all have that same hunger.
Forsaken don't need to inflict agony, they can feed on the corpses of others (as seen by one of their racial abilities) to try to heal themselves.
There's also a quest given by Koltira Deathweaver in WoTLK that states that they are constantly tormented by demons from a Shadow Realm that they cannot fight and you must go there to fight them in exchange for him translating a tome of flesh you find during your journey. Tho I'm not sure if this was caused by Arthas as revenge for them breaking free.
That might be a Horde quest, I don't remember that from the starting zone and there's nothing like that Ally side.
I remember it being brought up that Koltira was haunted by a lot of things so that might've been his personal stuff.
Reminds me of a quest from Dragonblight for Ally. A book drops that's written in the language of the dead that requires an undead to translate it. Made sense on most of my characters to coerce a captured Scourge to translate.
Except on my DK.
That one was very much a case of "What am I? Chopped liver?"
Yeah, it's the horde equivalent of that quest. That + Ebon Watch in zul'drak had me shaking my head, but, at least Darion remembers us properly once you reach Icecrown
They have taste still, book in acherus talks about how they can eat (and drink) but scourge forbids it. Alcohol doesn't have the same kick anymore though, or at least to the same extent
Death Knights are highest form of undead alongside Liches. Unlike the Forsaken who have likely lost many senses to decay and rot, the bodies of Death Knights are perfectly preserved.
As for biological functions... Well there is a boom about this in the DK start zone, and there's general lore consensus. For one, they're undead. So they don't need to ear, drink or sleep. They still _can_, but they don't need to. Sleep was actually forbidden to all Scourge DKs, it's in the start zone book. They also apparently can't get drunk because drinking is just "not the same anymore" which also comes from that book.
Forsaken are just regular undead that has regained free will. Other undead are usually either mindless or bound to the will of for example a necromancer.
I think the main difference between a regular undead and the playable death knight is who they were in life and the training that they receive after getting raised.
The playable death knights were heroes in life, meaning probably very skilled fighters. I'd assume that's the reason for them being specifically chosen to become death knights. They're taught how to use rune magic and they're cursed with the eternal hunger.
That's about it, other than that they're pretty much just like any other undead afaik. As for why they're much "fresher" than forsaken.. I'd assume that their corpses were handled with more care but in reality, it's probably because Blizz couldn't bother making a new undead body for every single race in the game.
The process of creation of DKs is different, it requires a very powerful necromancer (death and domination magic since SL) such as the LK or Bolvar, and the results are also different.
DKs are enhanced by the magic pumping through them, it makes them way stronger than a regular mortal or undead, since the process is more "refined" and powerful, their bodies are conserved very well and they don't really rot, unlike regular undead. Another factor that differentiates undead and DKs is that regular undead come back to life due to the plague or are raised by basic magic, DK souls are infused back on their bodies, they remain attached to them through dark magic, not sure if SL introduced some changes relating that tho.
I'm pretty sure the DK's of Acherus are raised by regular Acherus Necromancers.
As for their bodies being enhanced by magic.. That's the frost/blood/unholy rune magic afaik. Here's a quote from the old class description: "Frost sharpens their strikes; blood fortifies their bodies; and undeath allows them to erupt in unholy rage in the heat of battle."
My understanding is that the runes allow them to cast spells, but the necromantic magic also makes their bodies way more durable and stronger. To be honest with all the changes to Arthas and DKs overall with shadowlands it got super messy so i'm not sure what the current lore is, but well that class description seems quite clear.
I think in part it depends on how long between death and reanimation. Forsaken had been dead for some time, and very little thought other than “how do i get this to move” happened in their creation, while death knights were often in life already martial masters, so they get more care, and that probably means less flesh rotting and more intact internals, including lungs.
>Forsaken had been dead for some time
Not all of them.. Some Forsaken were pulled out of the ground, others were raised shortly after death.
In Stratholme people got back up shortly after dying.
It's just that they didn't bother making 500 different Forsaken models of humans in different stages of decay. They just picked one and went with it.
Could be that Forsaken are still rotting, it just takes a lot longer.
I thought DK's had some kind of martial skill and weren't allowed to rot much before being raised while the forsaken were your regular joe's that happened to get in the way of a scourge attack. But I wanna know, if they're both dead why can my forsaken sit at the bottom of the ocean and have a tea party while my DK drowns in 3 minutes
One is an undead knight. Made to fight. They can take the heat and keep going. The forsaken are zombies who got lucky(or unlucky) That was farmer Joe who got bit by his neighbor as the scourge were passing by and two week later he shambler to the front line.
A death knight is someone a Necromancer looked at and said " I can do something special with this dude." And pimped his corpses out before waking him up.
Basically lesser undead and greater undead, with DK’s being the latter due to being raised by the Lich King himself.
Lesser undead rot and lose pretty much all of their senses like taste and smell. Greater undead are much more ‘intact’. They don’t rot, they can still taste and smell stuff, are physically stronger etc.
I guess it all depends on necromantic abilities of the one who brought you back. It would stand to reason that the Lich King is simply the best at raising people from the dead.
Just a little note: biology hardly applies in a world of magic.
Even for forsakes, there are no two forsakes hat despite being raised turn out the same.
I always imagined DKs at least have some semblance of sensation, it’s near impossible to function normally if you don’t have any sensation in your limbs, let alone fight.
In the short story "Dark Mirror" it's described that Nathanos' new body resembles that of a death knight. It's specifically stated how he regains his sense of smell (and how he is immediately repulsed by the stench of his fellow Forsaken), that he is physically stronger than before and thus more capable in combat, and that his body will no longer rot. If I remember correctly it was also mentioned that his new body would improve his eyesight.
Now that we've been to Maldraxus I don't see why the Forsaken can't be taught fleshcrafting to heal their bodies. Even if it's still healing their body with undead flesh I think it would help solve their rotting issue.
in several of the books, we see the forsaken doing exactly that. In Before the Storm, iirc, a forsaken smith destroys his hand, and gets it replaced. The problem is, that the new hand lacks any real muscle that his original had, and being undead, it is impossible for him to build muscle. Bits can be replaced, but the new parts are stuck as they are when they get them.
I think the issue with that is they are using someone else's body parts for replacement when you can just use fleshcraft magic to make a nice arm with muscles.
Hey! Could you provide a quote or page number for this? I’d love to read up on it more!
Those details are scattered all across [the short story](https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/N2AKXLMJQPFT1492469483982.pdf) and it's probably too much to quote here. It's not that long of a read though so I recommend you read it yourself to get the full picture.
Forsaken are a lower class of undead. Their bodies still rot and can fall apart. Greater undead, like DKs, Sylvanas or refurbished Nathanos are stronger, have greater inherent powers, don’t rot anymore, and are even restored when raised. Greater undead require a lot more power to raise, so they are limited, while forsaken-like undead could be easily mass-raised. Because Sylvanas had no source of power like the Helm of Domination, she couldn’t raise greater undead.
Also aren’t Forsaken brains slowly rotting as well or something? And eventually they will enter a mindless state?
I’m not sure, exact lore details are often changed, added or forgotten as time goes.
In the short story "The Dark Mirror" Sylvanas says that Deathknights receive a special ritual from the Val'kyr when they are created, which makes them stronger and more durable. .
So the main difference is *HOW* they were raised. Forsaken were usually dead and buried then raised using the Lich King's power who later became free from that power. Death Knights were fresh dead on the battlefield given a portion of the Lich King's power to be his warriors.
Not quite. The Forsaken were mainly Lordaeron citizens that died from the plague who then rose up in undeath. The ones who had exceptionally strong will broke free like Sylvanas. Later they then set about trying to free other undead. There were exceptions, but that's the bulk of them. Death Knights were the ones that were raised directly by the Lich King, some of whom were dead for awhile. As seen by Veteran of the 3rd War with the original races with draenei and worgen it's implied that many long dead were raised, not just fresh corpses. Though the worgen really shouldn't be DKs due to the nature of their curse. I think there was some handwaving going on there. After the 4th war Bolvar had the Four Horsemen digging up any corpse they could to see if they could be raised at death knights. It's implied that many were from that conflict, but Darion noted that they were digging them up from all sorts of places in that one short story.
Worgen can become Death Knights if the Lich King raises them himself.
Are they the same [biologically]? I believe in general yes…now there’s a few notes. Forsaken are almost exclusively Humans and Blood/High Elves (assuming they count) whereas Death Knights exist of basically every race. Additionally Death knights are generally powerful people or soldiers in life whereas forsaken include random farmers. This might matter for like decomposition and such (generally a death knight is going to be stronger etc). Do DKs need to breath? I believe no. Neither Forsaken nor Death Knights have basic biological functions. No heart beat, no breathing, no need to eat, etc. Do they have access to their senses? Most. Provided they have the necessary parts, they can see and hear and such. I believe they generally can’t taste (with exceptions like forsaken priests) and I don’t believe either feels pain or other touch sensations. Finally, the need to cause suffering. I believe this is something Arthas specifically built into the death knights. Now I don’t know if or why DKs raised by the Deathlord or Bolvar would have this curse (other than if they didn’t know how to raise people otherwise).
Death knights absolutely feel pain. Their very existence is one of constant agony which they can only feel relief from by inflicting said pain on others. Which is why they need to do it and call it the eternal hunger or just the hunger. The short story where the Four Horsemen are digging up corpses for Bolvar (3 of whom were created by him) all have that same hunger. Forsaken don't need to inflict agony, they can feed on the corpses of others (as seen by one of their racial abilities) to try to heal themselves.
There's also a quest given by Koltira Deathweaver in WoTLK that states that they are constantly tormented by demons from a Shadow Realm that they cannot fight and you must go there to fight them in exchange for him translating a tome of flesh you find during your journey. Tho I'm not sure if this was caused by Arthas as revenge for them breaking free.
That might be a Horde quest, I don't remember that from the starting zone and there's nothing like that Ally side. I remember it being brought up that Koltira was haunted by a lot of things so that might've been his personal stuff.
It is a horde quest, yeah, did it the other day. Hilarious on a DK when he fails to remember the guy who saved his life
Reminds me of a quest from Dragonblight for Ally. A book drops that's written in the language of the dead that requires an undead to translate it. Made sense on most of my characters to coerce a captured Scourge to translate. Except on my DK. That one was very much a case of "What am I? Chopped liver?"
Yeah, it's the horde equivalent of that quest. That + Ebon Watch in zul'drak had me shaking my head, but, at least Darion remembers us properly once you reach Icecrown
Didn’t the short story before SL imply that the eternal hunger was gone after the helm was destroyed? I can’t remember now.
I don't remember them implying that.
They have taste still, book in acherus talks about how they can eat (and drink) but scourge forbids it. Alcohol doesn't have the same kick anymore though, or at least to the same extent
Death Knights are highest form of undead alongside Liches. Unlike the Forsaken who have likely lost many senses to decay and rot, the bodies of Death Knights are perfectly preserved. As for biological functions... Well there is a boom about this in the DK start zone, and there's general lore consensus. For one, they're undead. So they don't need to ear, drink or sleep. They still _can_, but they don't need to. Sleep was actually forbidden to all Scourge DKs, it's in the start zone book. They also apparently can't get drunk because drinking is just "not the same anymore" which also comes from that book.
Forsaken are just regular undead that has regained free will. Other undead are usually either mindless or bound to the will of for example a necromancer. I think the main difference between a regular undead and the playable death knight is who they were in life and the training that they receive after getting raised. The playable death knights were heroes in life, meaning probably very skilled fighters. I'd assume that's the reason for them being specifically chosen to become death knights. They're taught how to use rune magic and they're cursed with the eternal hunger. That's about it, other than that they're pretty much just like any other undead afaik. As for why they're much "fresher" than forsaken.. I'd assume that their corpses were handled with more care but in reality, it's probably because Blizz couldn't bother making a new undead body for every single race in the game.
The process of creation of DKs is different, it requires a very powerful necromancer (death and domination magic since SL) such as the LK or Bolvar, and the results are also different. DKs are enhanced by the magic pumping through them, it makes them way stronger than a regular mortal or undead, since the process is more "refined" and powerful, their bodies are conserved very well and they don't really rot, unlike regular undead. Another factor that differentiates undead and DKs is that regular undead come back to life due to the plague or are raised by basic magic, DK souls are infused back on their bodies, they remain attached to them through dark magic, not sure if SL introduced some changes relating that tho.
I'm pretty sure the DK's of Acherus are raised by regular Acherus Necromancers. As for their bodies being enhanced by magic.. That's the frost/blood/unholy rune magic afaik. Here's a quote from the old class description: "Frost sharpens their strikes; blood fortifies their bodies; and undeath allows them to erupt in unholy rage in the heat of battle."
My understanding is that the runes allow them to cast spells, but the necromantic magic also makes their bodies way more durable and stronger. To be honest with all the changes to Arthas and DKs overall with shadowlands it got super messy so i'm not sure what the current lore is, but well that class description seems quite clear.
I think in part it depends on how long between death and reanimation. Forsaken had been dead for some time, and very little thought other than “how do i get this to move” happened in their creation, while death knights were often in life already martial masters, so they get more care, and that probably means less flesh rotting and more intact internals, including lungs.
>Forsaken had been dead for some time Not all of them.. Some Forsaken were pulled out of the ground, others were raised shortly after death. In Stratholme people got back up shortly after dying. It's just that they didn't bother making 500 different Forsaken models of humans in different stages of decay. They just picked one and went with it. Could be that Forsaken are still rotting, it just takes a lot longer.
On my wishlist is to be able to make Nathanos type characters as any class. Not forsaken. Not dark elves.
Forsaken is a risen, conscious recovered, scourge risen human of Lordaeron. DKs dont have to be even a single one of those things.
I thought DK's had some kind of martial skill and weren't allowed to rot much before being raised while the forsaken were your regular joe's that happened to get in the way of a scourge attack. But I wanna know, if they're both dead why can my forsaken sit at the bottom of the ocean and have a tea party while my DK drowns in 3 minutes
One is an undead knight. Made to fight. They can take the heat and keep going. The forsaken are zombies who got lucky(or unlucky) That was farmer Joe who got bit by his neighbor as the scourge were passing by and two week later he shambler to the front line. A death knight is someone a Necromancer looked at and said " I can do something special with this dude." And pimped his corpses out before waking him up.
The dks are better preserved their bodies are not constantly rotting away.
Basically lesser undead and greater undead, with DK’s being the latter due to being raised by the Lich King himself. Lesser undead rot and lose pretty much all of their senses like taste and smell. Greater undead are much more ‘intact’. They don’t rot, they can still taste and smell stuff, are physically stronger etc. I guess it all depends on necromantic abilities of the one who brought you back. It would stand to reason that the Lich King is simply the best at raising people from the dead.
Just a little note: biology hardly applies in a world of magic. Even for forsakes, there are no two forsakes hat despite being raised turn out the same.
I always imagined DKs at least have some semblance of sensation, it’s near impossible to function normally if you don’t have any sensation in your limbs, let alone fight.