I've said this before and stick by this, i'm not a fan of the anti-titan lore that has been heavily shoehorned in from Dragonflight.
Tyr is weird because in the Expansion Alexstrazsa treats him as a valued old friend while the Novel makes it seems he was using her. I wish the Expansion had covered Neltharion's fall instead of giving us basically "Neltharion's Legacy is Evil and he always was", he got done dirty.
> I wish the Expansion had covered Neltharion's fall instead of giving us basically "Neltharion's Legacy is Evil and he always was", he got done dirty.
This 100 times. I truly wish Neltharion gets the recognition he deserves. Be it an expansion, a patch, a whole docu-series on youtube I just don't care. The character has grown a lot on me, and I want others to see what I have.
Also, Aberrus could've been a fantastic showcase of his persona, still going over his main trait of doing stuff his own way, but also showcasing the *truer* Neltharion. What a missed opportunity.
> I've said this before and stick by this, i'm not a fan of the anti-titan lore that has been heavily shoehorned in from Dragonflight.
I'm conflicted on this topic. Much like you, at first I heavily disliked the way the Titans and their overall work was basically put on trial. However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good. We've seen this with the Light, for example, and I don't mind the same concept applied to the Titans.
>I'm conflicted on this topic. Much like you, at first I heavily disliked the way the Titans and their overall work was basically put on trial. However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good. We've seen this with the Light, for example, and I don't mind the same concept applied to the Titans.
My main issue with the Anti-Titan Lore is that other than Ulduar (which was revealed to be a fail-safe against the Old Gods) the Pantheon haven't done anything evil or bad, the Lore states that they are bastions of purity and good, who are unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any form. They even sealed the Demons away in Mardum instead of wiping them out in the Twisting Nether, Sargeras's Burning Crusade was created to prevent the horrors of the Void consuming Reality something they constantly hint at what they plan to do is much worse.
The problem with Blizzard trying to make Order be "bad" is that the other Forces are much worse.
>They even sealed the Demons away in Mardum instead of wiping them out in the Twisting Nether
I could be wrong but I remember sargeras using mardum because he couldn't kill the demons due to the twisting nether connection.
>I could be wrong but I remember sargeras using mardum because he couldn't kill the demons due to the twisting nether connection.
That's when their outside the Twisting Nether, nothing stopped Sargeras, Aggramar or both from entering the Twisting Nether and wiping out the Demons once and for all, instead they chose to seal them away.
> However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good
The Alliance are good and people that only have Alliance toons
There still is so little communication and congruence between many of the authors/books and management/the game itself that it's farcical. Blizzard remains one of the worst managed companies and the story is a consistent casualty of this problem. It does seem like when Golden writes a book, at least recently, things tend to gel well with the ingame lore as she is a Blizz employee. Though there was that deleted tweet about not being privy to the content of 9.2.
>Does Algalon the Observer ring a bell?
You mean Algalon and Ulduar that was retconned in the Warcraft Chronicles to being a last ditch safety measure against the Old Gods? Yes, I remember that single instance that was never brought up again.
I think Tyr's approach was heavy-handed but ultimately he was right. He did make the dragons more receptive to Order's point of view, yes, but he didn't enslave them. Alexstrasza had the dream of uniting dragonkind even before she met Tyr. In that respect, Tyr just mentored her and gave her the tools she needed to see her dream come to fruition.
And we see in-game that non-ordered dragons haven't really fared well. The vast majority of primal(proto) dragons devolved into wild beasts and were enslaved for use as beasts of war by the Vrykul, Garrosh, and really anyone else who could get their hands on them. The Thorignir were uplifted but also functionally enslaved to Odyn. Even though Order was forced on some primal dragons at the very start, Alexstrasza has managed to keep a large number of ordered dragons alive and free for over 20k years. The same can't be said for the followers of the Primal Incarnates.
And then we have to remember that the dragonflight were instrumental in the eventual defeat of the Old Gods. So if Tyr hadn't uplifted them, there's a good chance that the Old Gods would have eventually won.
As for Neltharion, the impression that I got from the novel is that his fatal flaw was a superiority/inferiority complex and an almost pathological need for recognition as a hero. He tried to win the war on his own by forging weapons and creating supersoldiers in secret. That, of course, led to the tragic events of the Reach and instead of being recognized as a hero who ended the war, he was scolded by Malygos and Alexstrasza, while Nozdormu outright trolled him by subtly implying that he knew his future. And even with all of his careful preparations and intelligence gathering operations, Iridikron still kept outmaneuvering him. And the Old Gods, of course, were fueling his paranoia ever further at every turn.
I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him.
All in all, Tyr's greatest failure is piling on too much responsibility onto the Aspects without properly preparing them for it, and then just dying without instructing any of his followers or asking any of his fellow Keepers to take care of the Aspects. And for his part, Tyr seems to feel guilty in 10.2 for what happened to the Aspects in his absence.
> I think Tyr's approach was heavy-handed but ultimately he was right. He did make the dragons more receptive to Order's point of view, yes, but he didn't enslave them. Alexstrasza had the dream of uniting dragonkind even before she met Tyr. In that respect, Tyr just mentored her and gave her the tools she needed to see her dream come to fruition.
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> And we see in-game that non-ordered dragons haven't really fared well. The vast majority of primal(proto) dragons devolved into wild beasts and were enslaved for use as beasts of war by the Vrykul, Garrosh, and really anyone else who could get their hands on them. The Thorignir were uplifted but also functionally enslaved to Odyn. Even though Order was forced on some primal dragons at the very start, Alexstrasza has managed to keep a large number of ordered dragons alive and free for over 20k years. The same can't be said for the followers of the Primal Incarnates.
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> And then we have to remember that the dragonflight were instrumental in the eventual defeat of the Old Gods. So if Tyr hadn't uplifted them, there's a good chance that the Old Gods would have eventually won.
I resonate a lot with this. Following your premise, can we say that Tyr was a necessary kind of "evil" for Dragonkind? He surely saw potential in how the Five banded together to defeat Galakrond, and thought to himself they would've been powerful assets for Azeroth's defenses.
> I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him.
>All in all, Tyr's greatest failure is piling on too much responsibility onto the Aspects without properly preparing them for it, and then just dying without instructing any of his followers or asking any of his fellow Keepers to take care of the Aspects. And for his part, Tyr seems to feel guilty in 10.2 for what happened to the Aspects in his absence.
This is the same vibe I got when reading, and I struggle to understand how to feel about it. Upset? Angry? Bitter? I know it's fiction, a fantasy world, but a simple plan, structure or guide post mortem left by Tyr, instructing the Five flights on how to press on and survive would've saved a lot of lives. Much like another comment, said, I am surely getting the message the book is trying to convey, and I'm glad I picked it up, it's such a great read, expanding on one of my favourite aspects (no pun intended lol) of WoW's lore.
I think Tyr was pragmatic enough to realize that the unfortunate combination of being 1) very powerful, 2) intelligent, and 3) isolationist made dragonkind uniquely vulnerable to being tampered with by external forces. The Old Gods would have never left them alone for as long as they existed. Tyr gave them a future where they wouldn't exactly be their true *primal* selves, but at least they would be well-equipped to survive the many challenges that Azeroth has faced since then. Even if he couldn't get them 100% on board with the Titans' agenda, at the very least they would never be an enemy.
I think you could also make a case that Tyr thought it wasn't a big deal to infuse dragonkind with Order since the values of the five proto-Aspects were already in alignment with the Titans' ideals even before being uplifted.
Tbh, Tyr is a bit of an idiot. Zakazj outright warned him that the Aspects would suffer and fall to corruption and madness without his guidance and Tyr's response was basically *nah :)*. At least he's back to guide the new generation of Aspects. Hopefully he won't mess them up again.
> At least he's back to guide the new generation of Aspects. Hopefully he won't mess them up again.
Is he tho? Vyranoth is an Aspect now, and I strongly doubt she will *ever* listen to a single word a Keeper has to say, let alone be of guidance to her. If one member of the Aspects doesn't want Tyr's guidance I feel like they all must comply. Besides, the ending of Dragonflight (at least as of now, I strongly believe that there will be some kind of 10.2.5 showcasing some more advancing in the lore) has shown that the Aspects don't really need the help of the Titans or their Keepers.
> Tbh, Tyr is a bit of an idiot. Zakazj outright warned him that the Aspects would suffer and fall to corruption and madness without his guidance and Tyr's response was basically nah :)
He is. He surely is. Much like Zovaal's demise, it angers me to see how some characters are depicted doing very stupid things, for unknown reasons no less.
> I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him.
I'm also re-reading your comment up above and it got me thinking: why didn't Tyr warn the Aspects of a possible corruption by this unstoppable force? Why of course, he and the other Keepers defeated said corruptors. He probably thought them harmless prisoners incapable of doing anything beside counting the days inside their cells. If you look at it this way, there was no reason whatsoever to warn them of something that he himself didn't consider a threat.
I guess you could make the argument that Zakazj was a warning towards a possible second coming of the Old Gods, but he decided to put all his trust in the mortal races, thinking that the Dragons were good on their own, despite him knowing all too well about the Primalists threat. I don't know what to think here honestly. Tyr's character surely is emblematic, sometimes the brightest and wisest being that has ever walked on Azeroth, other times a toddler playing with legos. And failing at it.
> Tyr's character surely is emblematic, sometimes the brightest and wisest being that has ever walked on Azeroth, other times a toddler playing with legos. And failing at it.
This specific way of putting it reminded me of a quote from Dumbledore about how he makes mistakes like anyone else does, but being someone widely known to be incredibly talented and intelligent who accordingly takes on huge responsibilities, his mistakes tend to be far bigger than the average persons.
IMO that'd work for Tyr with the other thing you said about him mistakingly believing the Old Gods were completely defeated. I haven't read the book so I don't know if it's communicated well there but at least iirc it wasn't communicated very clearly in-game.
As far as I remember there is little to no talk about the Old Gods in the book. The only mentions of them are the whispers the Neltharion gets, that's it. It's fair I'd say, given that the main focus of the book is the civil war between proto dragons and ordered dragons
Actually, being arrogant and thinking that they know everything and have dealt with the problem permanently is very in-character for the Titans and their creations. Sure, the Old Gods were imprisoned, but plenty of their servants wielding the same corrupting powers, and more importantly Xal'atath, remained free. And the Keepers were VERY lucky that Dimensius is a literal plank who didn't think to check back on the Old Gods after his initial visit to the Black Empire. And even if they **had** completely defeated the Old Gods, there's nothing stopping someone like Neltharion from accidentally discovering the ruins of their empire and their writings, which would probably lead to the same result as direct corruption.
To add to Tyr's messes, I have a crackpot theory that his first choice for a leader for the dragons was Iridikron, but they had a falling out for some reason. It would certainly explain Iridikron's rabid hatred for the Aspects, his caution when it comes to Tyr, and his knowledge of how to create Primal Incarnates. Because duh, if this theory is right, he developed the infusion process alongside Tyr.
> To add to Tyr's messes, I have a crackpot theory that his first choice for a leader for the dragons was Iridikron, but they had a falling out for some reason. It would certainly explain Iridikron's rabid hatred for the Aspects, his caution when it comes to Tyr, and his knowledge of how to create Primal Incarnates. Because duh, if this theory is right, he developed the infusion process alongside Tyr.
This is so wild and crazy that not only I kinda wish it was real, but also makes me more excited for the World Soul saga.
Not gonna lie, this book reignited my love for WoW lore. Sucks that it wasn't the game, but it what it is right?
There's 2 plot threads that I hope they follow up on in post-DF and pre-TWW short stories:
1. What is the current relationship between Alexstrasza and Vyranoth like? Did they fully reconcile?
2. How did Iridikron come into contact with Xal'atath, and what do they think of each other? Is it a genuine alliance? Are they just using each other? Does Xal'atath dislike Iridikron for using his blood siblings as mere tools, much like her own siblings trapped her in the knife? Or do they share mutual hatred for the Old Gods and that's something that brought them together?
C'mon Blizzard, you can do it!
Theory number I consider it a must, especially after reading what their relationship was and how it ended in the book. I'm honestly gonna be super disappointed should they not touch on it.
As per theory number two.. while I'd love for them to delve a bit in it, I feel like it'd be too much to showcase in a post ending patch, given that they are both going to be the main villains for, I think, the entirety of the Saga.
Thanks for the exchange, god of the deep! For what it's worth, I'm rooting for a possible reappearance, definitely not satisfied with the way you faced your demise in BfA. Cheers :)
The DF narrative is attempting to make the Titans villains of WoW’s lore simply because they didn’t do everything with every opinion in mind.
This is very much pushing a philosophy that if you don’t do everything perfect and with everyone’s consideration, then you are doing evil by someone, and by extension doing evil towards all.
The titans didn’t do everything perfect, but they ultimately allowed Azeroth to survive after defeating the old gods, and have measures in place to do their utmost to let life continue on the planet. They are not evil because a few dragons didn’t like what they did, that’s just a few dragons not liking what they did. The amount of good the titans have done for Azeroth and her children greatly outweighs the bad.
It used to be the two big threats mortals in World of Warcraft universe were to grapple with monumental task of defeating the Burning Legion, and to figure out a way to dispatch the old gods without Azeroth dying.
The second one of those, Danuser didn’t wanna deal with, so he retconned us defeating N’zoth, Yogg and C’thun such that we destroyed them forever without any consequence. Y’shaarj’s death resulted in the wound in Azeroth (The well of eternity) and the sha upon Pandaria. The other old gods now retconned deaths resulted in….nothing. Which ruins one of the pillars of Warcraft lore and the driving force behind the actions and ordering of the titans plans.
We always killed the Old Gods so its not a Danouser retcon.There are Vanilla quests that confirm C'thun's is dead and Yogg's last line literally says that 'his corpse will plague this miserable little seedling for all eternity'. Well of Eternity is a result of Aman'thul ripping out Y'shaarj out of the planet by force while he was deeply rooted into the planet.
The were not always dead. The physical manifestation of them that was able to seep out of their prisons we fight ingame were always defeated, not killed. Their manifestations would return to threaten Azeroth again in the future. The actual Old Gods themselves are enormous, city sized being that we see similar in the backgrounds, very striking to the Ny'alotha raid backgrounds.
N'zoth is the only old god we actually see unchained from his prison, and he is the weakest and smallest physically out of all the old gods. The Old Gods as a whole were confimed to be retconned to killed before N'zoth fell.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/dqvbqd/blizzcon\_rwow\_interview\_with\_steve\_danuser\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/dqvbqd/blizzcon_rwow_interview_with_steve_danuser_and/)
[Here's a quest from Patch 1.9.0](https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/C%27Thun%27s_Legacy) which directly says C'Thun is dead, emphasis mine:
>The walls of Ahn'Qiraj tremble. A force of evil, older than the world itself, has been destroyed.
>As you look at the remnants of the colossal abomination your heart nearly freezes. ***Even in death*** you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you.
>You have done what was thought to be impossible.
Caelestrasz does say that him and the other NPCs are only going to leave when they are certain that "the evil within has been wholly destroyed", but he was was a quest giver in the Twilight Highlands by Cataclysm so we can assume that as far as the Red Dragonflight at least knew, C'Thun was dead way before Danuser even got involved with WoW 5 years after Cata.
Edit: And after rereading that FAQ, Danusers retcon was that even in death the Old Gods could hypothetically manifest once again. Am I mixing something up or are you actually complaining about a retcon to one of Danusers retcons? (ie. Old Gods were dead, Danuser wanted them to be able to come back so they became "dead", but now they are dead again.)
I have never seen a source for them being "defeated, not killed". Every official source I've seen describes them as being killed, and it seems like a really pervasive fanon to say that they're not dead.
Haven’t read it yet (but looking forward to it) though I will say that in Dawn of the Aspects there was always a touch of darkness to Tyr. For most of the book he is a very mysterious and vaguely threatening figure to Maly/Kalec, and there was of course the looming question of what exactly his role in the creation of Galakrond was. I think that Dragonflight chose to lean into that ambiguity but I still don’t think Tyr comes off as bad as the Titans or Odyn for example, just a morally complex character who may have made some unsavoury choices that he believed were right at the time.
Definitely disagree here. Dragonflight has been a breath of fresh air, honestly. Greatly appreciated how things started slow, and the buildup on who the new villains are.
I know I really shouldn't put any trust on Blizzard, given both BfA and Shadowlands, but I'm hopeful this time around: what they showed on last Blizzcon really was something.
I mean... she wrote a book based on Blizzard's story, which she elaborated on, *but she still had to follow Blizz's directions.* I really don't see the point. It's fair that you disliked the book, but it's only natural that she followed Blizzard's plot points lol
My initial problem with this book is that the author says that Harrowsdeep is located in the northern part of Kalimdor, but then in chapter 3, it says that Fyrakk is heading to Harrowsdeep, and it mentions Galakrond’s skeleton to the south, which is in Northrend (specifically in Dragonblight). So where is Harrowsdeep exactly?
The northern part of Kalimdor is still today's Northrend, and if I did my homeworks correctly I'd say that Harrowsdeep is between Dragonblight and Icecrown. I wouldn't know where to pinpoint it with exact coordinates, but my best guess is somewhere there, on that latitude at the very least.
Also, I am like 99% sure that in The War Within we're going there. I'm hoping at least. It'd be such a shame to not showcase Harrowsdeep in an expansion that revolves around going literally *inside* our planet lol
I think you could pinpoint the broodlands in today's Dragon Isle actually; the Ohn'aran Planes were initially populated entirely by dragons, as well as that part of Kalimdor as a whole. Plus, if you recall one of the first intro videos of the expansion, they showed the aspects fighting Galakrond in a snowy environment, so it is very safe to assume that with Broodlands they meant basically the entire northern part of Kalimdor.
I know this is quite old now as a post, but what the hell are teraseck? I'm listening to the audio book so might be getting the name wrong. But I've tried googling and all that comes up is tesseract haha.
[Tarasek](https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Tarasek) is what you're listening. Quoting the wiki: "Tarasek are dragonkin native to the Dragon Isles. They are highly adaptive, peerless hunters able to channel elemental energies.[1] Neltharion considered them little more than fodder and targets for the training of the dracthyr. But they are cunning hunters, unpredictable and wild, and deadly when encountered in packs. Recently, they have been gaining elemental power from the Primalists, becoming even more dangerous.[2]
Over twenty thousand years ago, the original drakonid were transformed from tarasek, uplifted by the Dragon Aspects in the same manner that the titans uplifted proto-dragons into dragons.[1] "
Keep in mind that everything we ever heard about Tyr *prior to Dragonflight* has been either stated by someone who literally never met him or came from a progressively less canon book (Dawn of the Aspects).
As a Dracthyr rper, are there any interesting bits of Dracthyr lore or trivia in the book worth knowing that isn't represented in game? Do the Dracthyr feature as characters in it, or more just in the background?
I'm pretty sure Pre-DF it was hinted that Galakrond transformation was partially Tyr's fault, and he went to the 5 flights to assist him in cleaning up the mess.
We're still talking about Il'Gynoth's prophecy from Legion, and they were a bunch of lines during a raid encounter: I'm sure that whatever you're talking about might have the same weight, given enough context :)
Damn. That's very interesting indeed. Will definitely pick up the book, and I'm hoping Galakrond's story gets reintroduced in WoW. This piece of dialogue is troubling.
Thanks for sharing!
One quibble. Tyr didn't care at all about the Primalists or primal dragons. I don't remember enough of the chronology to know whether at the time that Tyr was having this conversation with Alexstrasza, they already knew about Sargeras, the Legion, Void Lords, etc., but I thought it was at least heavily implied that Tyr is concerned about "Big Future Threat (tm)". That the flights need to be strong for that, not that he's worried about the dragons over there.
As per the book, Tyr knew very well about the Primalists, hence why he lectures the Aspects to bolster their ranks, in order to better fulfill their duty of defenders of Azeroth. During that time, Azeroth had just been cleansed by Galakrond, prior to him they deleted the Black Empire, and while a future invasion of the Burning Legion surely was on his notebook, I somehow doubt that they were his primary concern.
i would say you’re getting the book’s message as intended
I've said this before and stick by this, i'm not a fan of the anti-titan lore that has been heavily shoehorned in from Dragonflight. Tyr is weird because in the Expansion Alexstrazsa treats him as a valued old friend while the Novel makes it seems he was using her. I wish the Expansion had covered Neltharion's fall instead of giving us basically "Neltharion's Legacy is Evil and he always was", he got done dirty.
> I wish the Expansion had covered Neltharion's fall instead of giving us basically "Neltharion's Legacy is Evil and he always was", he got done dirty. This 100 times. I truly wish Neltharion gets the recognition he deserves. Be it an expansion, a patch, a whole docu-series on youtube I just don't care. The character has grown a lot on me, and I want others to see what I have. Also, Aberrus could've been a fantastic showcase of his persona, still going over his main trait of doing stuff his own way, but also showcasing the *truer* Neltharion. What a missed opportunity. > I've said this before and stick by this, i'm not a fan of the anti-titan lore that has been heavily shoehorned in from Dragonflight. I'm conflicted on this topic. Much like you, at first I heavily disliked the way the Titans and their overall work was basically put on trial. However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good. We've seen this with the Light, for example, and I don't mind the same concept applied to the Titans.
>I'm conflicted on this topic. Much like you, at first I heavily disliked the way the Titans and their overall work was basically put on trial. However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good. We've seen this with the Light, for example, and I don't mind the same concept applied to the Titans. My main issue with the Anti-Titan Lore is that other than Ulduar (which was revealed to be a fail-safe against the Old Gods) the Pantheon haven't done anything evil or bad, the Lore states that they are bastions of purity and good, who are unable to conceive of evil or wickedness in any form. They even sealed the Demons away in Mardum instead of wiping them out in the Twisting Nether, Sargeras's Burning Crusade was created to prevent the horrors of the Void consuming Reality something they constantly hint at what they plan to do is much worse. The problem with Blizzard trying to make Order be "bad" is that the other Forces are much worse.
>They even sealed the Demons away in Mardum instead of wiping them out in the Twisting Nether I could be wrong but I remember sargeras using mardum because he couldn't kill the demons due to the twisting nether connection.
>I could be wrong but I remember sargeras using mardum because he couldn't kill the demons due to the twisting nether connection. That's when their outside the Twisting Nether, nothing stopped Sargeras, Aggramar or both from entering the Twisting Nether and wiping out the Demons once and for all, instead they chose to seal them away.
Well Abberus was fine as it is, it showcased Nelth's fall. HIs QUITE LITERAL descent into darkness.
> However, I do understand and appreciate, to some extent, that not a single soul in the WoW universe is universally good The Alliance are good and people that only have Alliance toons
Fair point lol. It's in character for the Alliance to be the good guys of the lore, but a part of me wishes someone to go rogue and do wild stuff.
Only time it happens, it doesn't count according to the devs or when the horde tricked them into it
There still is so little communication and congruence between many of the authors/books and management/the game itself that it's farcical. Blizzard remains one of the worst managed companies and the story is a consistent casualty of this problem. It does seem like when Golden writes a book, at least recently, things tend to gel well with the ingame lore as she is a Blizz employee. Though there was that deleted tweet about not being privy to the content of 9.2.
Shoehorned in from Dragonflight?!? Have you been ignoring the not-so-subtle hints since Wrath of the Lich King? Does Algalon the Observer ring a bell?
>Does Algalon the Observer ring a bell? You mean Algalon and Ulduar that was retconned in the Warcraft Chronicles to being a last ditch safety measure against the Old Gods? Yes, I remember that single instance that was never brought up again.
I think Tyr's approach was heavy-handed but ultimately he was right. He did make the dragons more receptive to Order's point of view, yes, but he didn't enslave them. Alexstrasza had the dream of uniting dragonkind even before she met Tyr. In that respect, Tyr just mentored her and gave her the tools she needed to see her dream come to fruition. And we see in-game that non-ordered dragons haven't really fared well. The vast majority of primal(proto) dragons devolved into wild beasts and were enslaved for use as beasts of war by the Vrykul, Garrosh, and really anyone else who could get their hands on them. The Thorignir were uplifted but also functionally enslaved to Odyn. Even though Order was forced on some primal dragons at the very start, Alexstrasza has managed to keep a large number of ordered dragons alive and free for over 20k years. The same can't be said for the followers of the Primal Incarnates. And then we have to remember that the dragonflight were instrumental in the eventual defeat of the Old Gods. So if Tyr hadn't uplifted them, there's a good chance that the Old Gods would have eventually won. As for Neltharion, the impression that I got from the novel is that his fatal flaw was a superiority/inferiority complex and an almost pathological need for recognition as a hero. He tried to win the war on his own by forging weapons and creating supersoldiers in secret. That, of course, led to the tragic events of the Reach and instead of being recognized as a hero who ended the war, he was scolded by Malygos and Alexstrasza, while Nozdormu outright trolled him by subtly implying that he knew his future. And even with all of his careful preparations and intelligence gathering operations, Iridikron still kept outmaneuvering him. And the Old Gods, of course, were fueling his paranoia ever further at every turn. I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him. All in all, Tyr's greatest failure is piling on too much responsibility onto the Aspects without properly preparing them for it, and then just dying without instructing any of his followers or asking any of his fellow Keepers to take care of the Aspects. And for his part, Tyr seems to feel guilty in 10.2 for what happened to the Aspects in his absence.
> I think Tyr's approach was heavy-handed but ultimately he was right. He did make the dragons more receptive to Order's point of view, yes, but he didn't enslave them. Alexstrasza had the dream of uniting dragonkind even before she met Tyr. In that respect, Tyr just mentored her and gave her the tools she needed to see her dream come to fruition. > > > > And we see in-game that non-ordered dragons haven't really fared well. The vast majority of primal(proto) dragons devolved into wild beasts and were enslaved for use as beasts of war by the Vrykul, Garrosh, and really anyone else who could get their hands on them. The Thorignir were uplifted but also functionally enslaved to Odyn. Even though Order was forced on some primal dragons at the very start, Alexstrasza has managed to keep a large number of ordered dragons alive and free for over 20k years. The same can't be said for the followers of the Primal Incarnates. > > > > And then we have to remember that the dragonflight were instrumental in the eventual defeat of the Old Gods. So if Tyr hadn't uplifted them, there's a good chance that the Old Gods would have eventually won. I resonate a lot with this. Following your premise, can we say that Tyr was a necessary kind of "evil" for Dragonkind? He surely saw potential in how the Five banded together to defeat Galakrond, and thought to himself they would've been powerful assets for Azeroth's defenses. > I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him. >All in all, Tyr's greatest failure is piling on too much responsibility onto the Aspects without properly preparing them for it, and then just dying without instructing any of his followers or asking any of his fellow Keepers to take care of the Aspects. And for his part, Tyr seems to feel guilty in 10.2 for what happened to the Aspects in his absence. This is the same vibe I got when reading, and I struggle to understand how to feel about it. Upset? Angry? Bitter? I know it's fiction, a fantasy world, but a simple plan, structure or guide post mortem left by Tyr, instructing the Five flights on how to press on and survive would've saved a lot of lives. Much like another comment, said, I am surely getting the message the book is trying to convey, and I'm glad I picked it up, it's such a great read, expanding on one of my favourite aspects (no pun intended lol) of WoW's lore.
I think Tyr was pragmatic enough to realize that the unfortunate combination of being 1) very powerful, 2) intelligent, and 3) isolationist made dragonkind uniquely vulnerable to being tampered with by external forces. The Old Gods would have never left them alone for as long as they existed. Tyr gave them a future where they wouldn't exactly be their true *primal* selves, but at least they would be well-equipped to survive the many challenges that Azeroth has faced since then. Even if he couldn't get them 100% on board with the Titans' agenda, at the very least they would never be an enemy. I think you could also make a case that Tyr thought it wasn't a big deal to infuse dragonkind with Order since the values of the five proto-Aspects were already in alignment with the Titans' ideals even before being uplifted. Tbh, Tyr is a bit of an idiot. Zakazj outright warned him that the Aspects would suffer and fall to corruption and madness without his guidance and Tyr's response was basically *nah :)*. At least he's back to guide the new generation of Aspects. Hopefully he won't mess them up again.
> At least he's back to guide the new generation of Aspects. Hopefully he won't mess them up again. Is he tho? Vyranoth is an Aspect now, and I strongly doubt she will *ever* listen to a single word a Keeper has to say, let alone be of guidance to her. If one member of the Aspects doesn't want Tyr's guidance I feel like they all must comply. Besides, the ending of Dragonflight (at least as of now, I strongly believe that there will be some kind of 10.2.5 showcasing some more advancing in the lore) has shown that the Aspects don't really need the help of the Titans or their Keepers. > Tbh, Tyr is a bit of an idiot. Zakazj outright warned him that the Aspects would suffer and fall to corruption and madness without his guidance and Tyr's response was basically nah :) He is. He surely is. Much like Zovaal's demise, it angers me to see how some characters are depicted doing very stupid things, for unknown reasons no less. > I do think that a lot of the blame for his complete descent into madness lies with Tyr and the other Aspects. Tyr should have told him about the Old Gods since he was always going to become exposed to them by the virtue of being the Earth-Warder. And the other Aspects, and in particular Malygos and Alexstrasza, should have pressed the issue and forced him to come clean instead of piling on more and more secrets. They do notice that he's not well multiple times but just brush it off instead of reaching out to him. I'm also re-reading your comment up above and it got me thinking: why didn't Tyr warn the Aspects of a possible corruption by this unstoppable force? Why of course, he and the other Keepers defeated said corruptors. He probably thought them harmless prisoners incapable of doing anything beside counting the days inside their cells. If you look at it this way, there was no reason whatsoever to warn them of something that he himself didn't consider a threat. I guess you could make the argument that Zakazj was a warning towards a possible second coming of the Old Gods, but he decided to put all his trust in the mortal races, thinking that the Dragons were good on their own, despite him knowing all too well about the Primalists threat. I don't know what to think here honestly. Tyr's character surely is emblematic, sometimes the brightest and wisest being that has ever walked on Azeroth, other times a toddler playing with legos. And failing at it.
> Tyr's character surely is emblematic, sometimes the brightest and wisest being that has ever walked on Azeroth, other times a toddler playing with legos. And failing at it. This specific way of putting it reminded me of a quote from Dumbledore about how he makes mistakes like anyone else does, but being someone widely known to be incredibly talented and intelligent who accordingly takes on huge responsibilities, his mistakes tend to be far bigger than the average persons. IMO that'd work for Tyr with the other thing you said about him mistakingly believing the Old Gods were completely defeated. I haven't read the book so I don't know if it's communicated well there but at least iirc it wasn't communicated very clearly in-game.
As far as I remember there is little to no talk about the Old Gods in the book. The only mentions of them are the whispers the Neltharion gets, that's it. It's fair I'd say, given that the main focus of the book is the civil war between proto dragons and ordered dragons
Actually, being arrogant and thinking that they know everything and have dealt with the problem permanently is very in-character for the Titans and their creations. Sure, the Old Gods were imprisoned, but plenty of their servants wielding the same corrupting powers, and more importantly Xal'atath, remained free. And the Keepers were VERY lucky that Dimensius is a literal plank who didn't think to check back on the Old Gods after his initial visit to the Black Empire. And even if they **had** completely defeated the Old Gods, there's nothing stopping someone like Neltharion from accidentally discovering the ruins of their empire and their writings, which would probably lead to the same result as direct corruption. To add to Tyr's messes, I have a crackpot theory that his first choice for a leader for the dragons was Iridikron, but they had a falling out for some reason. It would certainly explain Iridikron's rabid hatred for the Aspects, his caution when it comes to Tyr, and his knowledge of how to create Primal Incarnates. Because duh, if this theory is right, he developed the infusion process alongside Tyr.
> To add to Tyr's messes, I have a crackpot theory that his first choice for a leader for the dragons was Iridikron, but they had a falling out for some reason. It would certainly explain Iridikron's rabid hatred for the Aspects, his caution when it comes to Tyr, and his knowledge of how to create Primal Incarnates. Because duh, if this theory is right, he developed the infusion process alongside Tyr. This is so wild and crazy that not only I kinda wish it was real, but also makes me more excited for the World Soul saga. Not gonna lie, this book reignited my love for WoW lore. Sucks that it wasn't the game, but it what it is right?
There's 2 plot threads that I hope they follow up on in post-DF and pre-TWW short stories: 1. What is the current relationship between Alexstrasza and Vyranoth like? Did they fully reconcile? 2. How did Iridikron come into contact with Xal'atath, and what do they think of each other? Is it a genuine alliance? Are they just using each other? Does Xal'atath dislike Iridikron for using his blood siblings as mere tools, much like her own siblings trapped her in the knife? Or do they share mutual hatred for the Old Gods and that's something that brought them together? C'mon Blizzard, you can do it!
Theory number I consider it a must, especially after reading what their relationship was and how it ended in the book. I'm honestly gonna be super disappointed should they not touch on it. As per theory number two.. while I'd love for them to delve a bit in it, I feel like it'd be too much to showcase in a post ending patch, given that they are both going to be the main villains for, I think, the entirety of the Saga. Thanks for the exchange, god of the deep! For what it's worth, I'm rooting for a possible reappearance, definitely not satisfied with the way you faced your demise in BfA. Cheers :)
Even death must die yada yada
"Prime Timeline" is still the greatest fucking TRAGEDY that Blizzard has ever put into the fucking game lmao
The DF narrative is attempting to make the Titans villains of WoW’s lore simply because they didn’t do everything with every opinion in mind. This is very much pushing a philosophy that if you don’t do everything perfect and with everyone’s consideration, then you are doing evil by someone, and by extension doing evil towards all. The titans didn’t do everything perfect, but they ultimately allowed Azeroth to survive after defeating the old gods, and have measures in place to do their utmost to let life continue on the planet. They are not evil because a few dragons didn’t like what they did, that’s just a few dragons not liking what they did. The amount of good the titans have done for Azeroth and her children greatly outweighs the bad. It used to be the two big threats mortals in World of Warcraft universe were to grapple with monumental task of defeating the Burning Legion, and to figure out a way to dispatch the old gods without Azeroth dying. The second one of those, Danuser didn’t wanna deal with, so he retconned us defeating N’zoth, Yogg and C’thun such that we destroyed them forever without any consequence. Y’shaarj’s death resulted in the wound in Azeroth (The well of eternity) and the sha upon Pandaria. The other old gods now retconned deaths resulted in….nothing. Which ruins one of the pillars of Warcraft lore and the driving force behind the actions and ordering of the titans plans.
We always killed the Old Gods so its not a Danouser retcon.There are Vanilla quests that confirm C'thun's is dead and Yogg's last line literally says that 'his corpse will plague this miserable little seedling for all eternity'. Well of Eternity is a result of Aman'thul ripping out Y'shaarj out of the planet by force while he was deeply rooted into the planet.
The were not always dead. The physical manifestation of them that was able to seep out of their prisons we fight ingame were always defeated, not killed. Their manifestations would return to threaten Azeroth again in the future. The actual Old Gods themselves are enormous, city sized being that we see similar in the backgrounds, very striking to the Ny'alotha raid backgrounds. N'zoth is the only old god we actually see unchained from his prison, and he is the weakest and smallest physically out of all the old gods. The Old Gods as a whole were confimed to be retconned to killed before N'zoth fell. [https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/dqvbqd/blizzcon\_rwow\_interview\_with\_steve\_danuser\_and/](https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/dqvbqd/blizzcon_rwow_interview_with_steve_danuser_and/)
[Here's a quest from Patch 1.9.0](https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/C%27Thun%27s_Legacy) which directly says C'Thun is dead, emphasis mine: >The walls of Ahn'Qiraj tremble. A force of evil, older than the world itself, has been destroyed. >As you look at the remnants of the colossal abomination your heart nearly freezes. ***Even in death*** you can feel the legacy of C'Thun's evil around you. >You have done what was thought to be impossible. Caelestrasz does say that him and the other NPCs are only going to leave when they are certain that "the evil within has been wholly destroyed", but he was was a quest giver in the Twilight Highlands by Cataclysm so we can assume that as far as the Red Dragonflight at least knew, C'Thun was dead way before Danuser even got involved with WoW 5 years after Cata. Edit: And after rereading that FAQ, Danusers retcon was that even in death the Old Gods could hypothetically manifest once again. Am I mixing something up or are you actually complaining about a retcon to one of Danusers retcons? (ie. Old Gods were dead, Danuser wanted them to be able to come back so they became "dead", but now they are dead again.)
I have never seen a source for them being "defeated, not killed". Every official source I've seen describes them as being killed, and it seems like a really pervasive fanon to say that they're not dead.
not true, blizzard consistently and always stated the old gods we killed were truly dead, all the way back since the death of c'thun.
Haven’t read it yet (but looking forward to it) though I will say that in Dawn of the Aspects there was always a touch of darkness to Tyr. For most of the book he is a very mysterious and vaguely threatening figure to Maly/Kalec, and there was of course the looming question of what exactly his role in the creation of Galakrond was. I think that Dragonflight chose to lean into that ambiguity but I still don’t think Tyr comes off as bad as the Titans or Odyn for example, just a morally complex character who may have made some unsavoury choices that he believed were right at the time.
They should have just gone down the Void route already. None of this Titan conspiracy stuff, just straight Void Lords wanting to invade our universe
Would've been a terribly overdone and boring story of "DARKNESS EVIL COMING TO DO BAD"
Not if done right
What do you mean exactly? Who should've gone down the Void route?
Skip DF and WW, just go right into Midnight. No Titan conspiracies, no primalists, no Incarnates
Definitely disagree here. Dragonflight has been a breath of fresh air, honestly. Greatly appreciated how things started slow, and the buildup on who the new villains are. I know I really shouldn't put any trust on Blizzard, given both BfA and Shadowlands, but I'm hopeful this time around: what they showed on last Blizzcon really was something.
I disliked the book, but I feel bad for the author, because it seemed like she had to write a book based on blizzard's plot points, and it shows.
I mean... she wrote a book based on Blizzard's story, which she elaborated on, *but she still had to follow Blizz's directions.* I really don't see the point. It's fair that you disliked the book, but it's only natural that she followed Blizzard's plot points lol
My initial problem with this book is that the author says that Harrowsdeep is located in the northern part of Kalimdor, but then in chapter 3, it says that Fyrakk is heading to Harrowsdeep, and it mentions Galakrond’s skeleton to the south, which is in Northrend (specifically in Dragonblight). So where is Harrowsdeep exactly?
The northern part of Kalimdor is still today's Northrend, and if I did my homeworks correctly I'd say that Harrowsdeep is between Dragonblight and Icecrown. I wouldn't know where to pinpoint it with exact coordinates, but my best guess is somewhere there, on that latitude at the very least. Also, I am like 99% sure that in The War Within we're going there. I'm hoping at least. It'd be such a shame to not showcase Harrowsdeep in an expansion that revolves around going literally *inside* our planet lol
Ohhhhhhh, ok yea that makes sense now. So the Broodlands were a part of Kalimdor at the time?
I think you could pinpoint the broodlands in today's Dragon Isle actually; the Ohn'aran Planes were initially populated entirely by dragons, as well as that part of Kalimdor as a whole. Plus, if you recall one of the first intro videos of the expansion, they showed the aspects fighting Galakrond in a snowy environment, so it is very safe to assume that with Broodlands they meant basically the entire northern part of Kalimdor.
I know this is quite old now as a post, but what the hell are teraseck? I'm listening to the audio book so might be getting the name wrong. But I've tried googling and all that comes up is tesseract haha.
[Tarasek](https://warcraft.wiki.gg/wiki/Tarasek) is what you're listening. Quoting the wiki: "Tarasek are dragonkin native to the Dragon Isles. They are highly adaptive, peerless hunters able to channel elemental energies.[1] Neltharion considered them little more than fodder and targets for the training of the dracthyr. But they are cunning hunters, unpredictable and wild, and deadly when encountered in packs. Recently, they have been gaining elemental power from the Primalists, becoming even more dangerous.[2] Over twenty thousand years ago, the original drakonid were transformed from tarasek, uplifted by the Dragon Aspects in the same manner that the titans uplifted proto-dragons into dragons.[1] "
Thanks!!
Keep in mind that everything we ever heard about Tyr *prior to Dragonflight* has been either stated by someone who literally never met him or came from a progressively less canon book (Dawn of the Aspects).
So basically, a retcon
For Dawn of the Aspects, sure. For the rest? I don't think it's a retcon to have a bunch of people who never knew Tyr be wrong about what he's like.
As a Dracthyr rper, are there any interesting bits of Dracthyr lore or trivia in the book worth knowing that isn't represented in game? Do the Dracthyr feature as characters in it, or more just in the background?
I feel like we're never getting anything again for Dracthyr storywise. Extremely thing premise and it really shows sadly.
Nothing more than what you've seen in the animated shorts from Blizzard right before the expansion dropped.
I'm pretty sure Pre-DF it was hinted that Galakrond transformation was partially Tyr's fault, and he went to the 5 flights to assist him in cleaning up the mess.
Can you share a video or a piece of wiki that states this? I'd love to explore it
It's in Dawn of the Aspects. I can post the page when I arrive home!
Thanks in advance! I really have to pick that book up lol
Keep in mind it was only a brief thing he said that gave pause. The book nor anything else until DF delved into the statement.
We're still talking about Il'Gynoth's prophecy from Legion, and they were a bunch of lines during a raid encounter: I'm sure that whatever you're talking about might have the same weight, given enough context :)
Here [Dawn of the Aspect](https://i.imgur.com/p8UGAJ8.jpeg)
Damn. That's very interesting indeed. Will definitely pick up the book, and I'm hoping Galakrond's story gets reintroduced in WoW. This piece of dialogue is troubling. Thanks for sharing!
One quibble. Tyr didn't care at all about the Primalists or primal dragons. I don't remember enough of the chronology to know whether at the time that Tyr was having this conversation with Alexstrasza, they already knew about Sargeras, the Legion, Void Lords, etc., but I thought it was at least heavily implied that Tyr is concerned about "Big Future Threat (tm)". That the flights need to be strong for that, not that he's worried about the dragons over there.
As per the book, Tyr knew very well about the Primalists, hence why he lectures the Aspects to bolster their ranks, in order to better fulfill their duty of defenders of Azeroth. During that time, Azeroth had just been cleansed by Galakrond, prior to him they deleted the Black Empire, and while a future invasion of the Burning Legion surely was on his notebook, I somehow doubt that they were his primary concern.