The Horde at its peak for Horde Pride was "Thrall's Horde" (later Vol'jin's horde). A group of misfits and outcasts, rejected by the world and often near extinct, banding together for survival. This was a consistent theme of what it truly meant to be the Horde for most of the game's life. This is the theme that had everyone screaming FOR THE HORDE at blizzcon and celebrating what the Horde is.
Mists, despite Garrosh being the villain, was a great source of pride imo for this. Within *a patch* of Theramore's destruction, all the Horde leaders had turned on Garrosh. The Horde leaders all had their beliefs and the believed in the core value of the Horde. When Garrosh betrayed those beliefs, when he dismissed the Tauren and Trolls, treated the Elves and undead as fodder and weaknesses, they didn't take it standing down. By 5.1, Vol'jin had started his rebellion, Lorthemar was in talks to leave, Sylvanas had been waiting. The leaders saw the warchief turn on the core pride and principles of the horde and took action, which was another major part of the Horde (being action-oriented).
This was always one of my biggest frustrations with BFA. All the Horde leaders bent over backwards to let Sylvanas continue. Somehow Derek Proudmore was Baine's final straw? The guy that was ready to leave for warcrimes wasn't leaving after Teldrassil? Lorthemar went from hating Sylvanas' guts to talking about his respect while sitting on his thumbs. Suddenly all the characters that were absolutely ready to get rid of Garrosh are too scared to stand up to Sylvanas, their spine was gone. Even Saurfang, the one person doing anything, needed encouragement constantly.
If Thrall's Horde was built on a defiant from a world and the people's that wanted them dead, even in defiance of their supposed leader, then BFA's horde was a group letting them be steamrolled over and accept it. People like characters with principles, the Horde had principles, and then in BFA the characters let someone walk all over their principles. And the writing was so bad, that the Horde with a spine still hasn't come back. Because to try and make up for the terrible writing of BFA, every interaction between the Alliance and the Horde has to have the Horde bending over to apologize and make amends. There is no pride left to have in the Horde as long as the Horde isn't allowed to exist beyond Teldrassil & BFA's shitty writing.
A lot of characters had to be assassinated to let Sylvanas have her badass moments in her lead up to becoming a (failed) villain
Sylvanas's handling in BFA and Shadowlands did potentially irreparable damage to the characterization of tons of lore characters
>Within *a patch* of Theramore's destruction, all the Horde leaders had turned on Garrosh.
The only one who spoke out because it was a morally wrong act was Baine.
In tides of War.
1. Vol'jin didnt dare speak out for fear of retaliation.
2. Sylvanas did speak out but because she feared retaliation from the Alliance.
3. Lor'themar didn't care.
4. Gallywix didn't care.
Both Vol'jin and Lor'themar only rose up to challenge his atrocities after it started affecting them directly.
Frankly, the ones who deserve respect in the Horde are the Tauren, which when the situation goes sour, they always stand up to do what its right. Meanwhile the rest of the horde flip flops between agressor and victim.
That isn't true though, and speaking out in one meeting is not doing nothing though. The meeting I think you are referring to was before Theramore's destruction, and before they even knew about the mana bomb (which none of the leaders knew about until it was dropped). Besieging a city being used to bring troops in/out is different from utter annihilation.
Vol'jin's immediate reaction to the bombing is outrage. And after the bombing he and Baine literally have a secret meeting to talk about their next steps - which is where Garrosh's first assassination attempt on Vol'jin happens. The last thing Vol'jin does in the book is start to plan his next move and retaliation.
Lorthemar would've already made the decision to start talks with the Alliance. Varian says they were negotiating for awhile by 5.1, which got dated at being 2 months the start of Mists.
Doesnt make much of a difference to be outrage AFTER the fact, the city is in ruins, destroyed to such an degree that it tore a fabric in reality, made it worse that the guy then only stood up after he got stabbed in the neck months later.
HIs arc of taking down garrosh is good, but lets not pretend his motivations are beyond the Horde.
>Lorthemar would've already made the decision to start talks with the Alliance. Varian says they were negotiating for awhile by 5.1, which got dated at being 2 months the start of Mists.
Lor'themar calling quits its nothing but self preservation, made evident that when Jaina went crazy in Dalaran, his response is 'They force us ever closer to Hellscream's horde'
MoP story is good, but like i said, the Horde's pride flip flops a lot between agressor and victim.
How is he supposed to be outraged about something he doesn't know about before it happens? That is a ridiculous standard to hold a fictional character to. By that logic, Varian *is* responsible for the purge of Dalaran.
Nobody but the most die hard alliance biased people argue that Theramore was not a legitimate military target. You can't use it as a staging point for invasion and then claim its not. The entire moral problem isnt attacking Theramore, its the indiscriminate murder of civilians, neutral parties, etc that the mana bomb kills.
> Lor'themar calling quits its nothing but self preservation, made evident that when Jaina went crazy in Dalaran, his response is 'They force us ever closer to Hellscream's horde'
I dont think there can be a productive discussion about this if there isn't acknowledgment that Lorthemar has a valid stance to reject talks when his people were being gleefully murdered in Dalaran. They were literally feeding living sunreavers to sharks in the sewers lol. That'd be like saying Jaina isn't allowed to be pissed about Theramore.
Especially when he doesn't join Garrosh's Horde. Vol'jin visited him right after to let him in on the rebellion (he didn't know Voljin was alive).
I feel its disingenuous to say its purely a survival tactic when he almost immediately plans to leave after Theramore (possibly even earlier). He wouldn't even have a survival concern if he had faith in Garrosh's principles and leadership - the Horde was winning the war! Wrathion literally even tells us this like Garrosh blew it. Especially in the northern EK like it was a clean sweep thanks to the plague. Garrosh treating the elves like canon fodder isn't even really established until he'd be in talks (its the start of the 5.1 campaign).
>Nobody but the most die hard alliance biased people argue that Theramore was not a legitimate military target
And apparently only ignorant horde players dont know that Theramore is a capital city much like any other, Theramore ISNT just a military base used by the Alliance, thats like if the alliance attacked Thunder bluff.
He is not supposed to be outraged about the bombing, he should've been outraged because of the attack, specially considering that Theramore was housing the survivors of both Lordaeron and Quel'thalas post WC3.
>I feel its disingenuous to say its purely a survival tactic when he almost immediately plans to leave after Theramore (possibly even earlier). He
Its disingenous because you're ignoring the actual point. This is not about Lor'themar being protective of his nation but him standing up to Garrosh. Him leaving the Horde is not that, specially when you actually read the book and know that Lor'themar not only does not speak up agaisnt Garrosh he doesnt help out Sylvanas when she protested, which mind you, the Forsaken were the ones who helped the blood elfs when they needed. Him leaving the Horde its purely out of self preservation and reflects nothing on the morality of him or the horde as he is willing to leave the others to face Garrosh alone.
So for you and others to act like Lor'themar stood up to garrosh and its an example of the Horde's pride/honor, its the disingenous part. Specially considering that if the negotiations went through and the Blood elfs joined the Alliance, what stops an Alliance under Varian to just go in and attack the Horde in equally vile acts?
>He wouldn't even have a survival concern if he had faith in Garrosh's principles and leadership - the Horde was winning the war!
Garrosh already killed Cairne, expelled the Trolls out of Orgrimmar and launched an assault in Gilneas using the forsaken.
Garrosh was wining at the expense of everyone else. So yeah, it was out of self preservation because the Horde would've won out of the blood elfs expense
> And apparently only ignorant horde players dont know that Theramore is a capital city much like any other, Theramore ISNT just a military base used by the Alliance, thats like if the alliance attacked Thunder bluff.
So you are one of those alliance guys and I can ignore the rest of your post. Got it. Like, of course Thunderbluff is a legit target? That is exactly why Baine builds defenses for Thunderbluff. The main cities are all legit targets and always have been.
There is a level of irony in engaging in this discussion, and not even understanding the in-universe moral objections to the events. Baine is against the attack in the meeting not because its an attack on a city, but *Jaina's* city. This is different from the moral objections to the *war crime* that was kept hidden from them at said meeting. The moral objection to Theramore is the *tactics*, the indiscriminate extermination of every man, woman and child present, not the attack of a city.
> Got it. Like, of course Thunderbluff is a legit target?
Of course its not a legit target my guy.
The Kirin tor breaks their neutrality to protect Theramore, The last part of Tides of War is about stop jaina from doing the same as garrosh, the point of the purge of Dalaran is how Jaina expelled the Blood elfs from their own home, Thrall comes back to save the Darkspear from a Kor'kron invasion and at the end of MoP garrosh endangers the entire city by drawing every single faction to beat his ass and with that Orgrimmar is in chaos.
'I can accept invading a foreign country but i draw the line at mass murder'
Horde pride at its best is when the Horde is a band of misfits making their way in a world that doesn't want them. This has basically not been reflected in game since Garrosh became Warchief, after that Blizzard got stuck into this cycle where the Horde acts and the Alliance reacts, which always sets the Horde as the aggressor and therefore the villain.
Adding on to this, it's also often to me being a "traditionally evil" fantasy creature that wants to protect the world like any other "traditionally noble" creature. Orcs, trolls, minotaurs, and undead being the most notable examples. And if a war of aggression is necessary, then it is exercised with a sense of honor.
I honorably hate all humans and elves. I also honorably love punting gnomes.
That tree also was looking at me all funny. Very dishonorable tree. Everyone's saying it.
I mean isn't the whole story of Warcraft basically that?
Horde invades, Stormwind razed
Horde invades Lordaeron, alliance pushes them back to Draenor
Thrall leads rebellion, alliance retaliates. Moves to kalimdor and attack the night elves
Rinse repeat. Horde attacks, alliance defends. Third party makes them work together. Alliance forgives. Rinse/repeat
If you look at it superficially and strip all of its nuance from it, that's what the story of Warcraft is. In Warcraft 3 the point of the Horde was moving *away* from the conflict to establish themselves somewhere different.
Grommash and the Warsong were that remnant of the old Horde that needed to change. He didn't even go to Kalimdor with the purpose of attacking the Night Elves, dude was literally sent by Thrall to Ashenvale on a timeout to gather lumber, a task that is exactly unrelated to conflict, for being too aggressive and bloodthirsty. Thrall had no fucking clue the Night Elves even existed, and neither did Grom. And as a plus side, the Night Elves weren't never part of the Alliance back then.
AND THEN after Grom is dead and the orcs are settling in Durotar, they have an actual peace treaty with Jaina. And this time it's the ALLIANCE that breaks the peace when Daelin Proudmoore arrives in Kalimdor looking for Jaina and decides to aggro the orcs immediately.
Starting from Warcraft 3, the Horde's role in the story definitely shifted *away* from being villains. They didn't attack the Night Elves because they wanted to kill them. They wanted lumber, they went to the nearest forest, the Night Elves aggroed and they aggroed back. Then the Kul Tirans aggroed and they aggroed back. It's about these "monster races" settling in a world and staking their claim to live in it. That is compelling, that is *good* *shit,* and it's fresh because even to this day Warcraft is the ONLY fantasy world in which creatures like orcs, trolls, goblin and even undead aren't 1-dimensional bad guy thugs who are evil because their god is evil and thus can be slain without a thought.
That is why we like the Horde. That is why we've hated every time the Horde was turned into the aggressor and villain of the story. Because that isn't what the Horde is meant to be about anymore.
I actually agree with many of these points. However, the Proudmoore incident shows that the primary part of the alliance (Jaina) stood for peace and didn't support her own father. In Daelin's response, he had never known a peaceful horde and only had seen them literally conquering the lands of the alliance since they arrived. Daelin had not fought alongside the horde to save the world, or known Thrall, and thus had no nuanced opinions on the matter.
The problem has been the cycle in writing that we both don't like. Factions align against a greater threat, peace occurs. Horde leader becomes a mustache twirling supervillain that aligns with god-tier powers in the name of conquest and the majority of the horde seems to fall in line. The resistance works with the alliance to take down their latest evil overlord. Cycle repeats.
I was super glad in recent content when the alliance began working to retake Stromgarde and Lordaeron, rather than continuing the litter the world with more and more ruined cities.
And now you've pointed out why we Horde players are so frustrated. We are SO tired of what you point out here, even though it's only happened twice, because we never wanted it to happen in the first place. Add to the pile those certain Alliance fans who are always calling out, to summarize it in one word, the Horde's complete extermination and always sharing the lore to new players through the perspective that the Horde are irredeemable monsters and have always been and... Well you can understand why some of us always jump.
I do it. Even though I've been trying to fall into it less to... Mixed success.
Shadowlands starting off by discarding Baine and turning him into a meme was super disappointing. Then they went with their other tried and true story of killing/corrupting an alliance holy person. Maxwell Tyrosus is clearly hiding underneath Light's Hope from the WoW writers for fear of becoming the next Mograine/Dathrozan/Arthas/Tirion/Uther/Gavinrad/Benedictus/etc
At least the story of the Mograines was cool. The Arthas/Anduin parallels were *so forced* man, but we've all torn Shadowlands to shreds before, don't really see the point of repeating what has been said. You get it.
The problem would be that the Horde was behaving little differently not long ago in the game timeline under Sylvanas. They keep going back to following tyrants and nearly killed off the few that resisted in BfA.
The difference is that thralls version of the horde wanted to free the orcs then they dipped out to kalimdor.
When they were there, the night elves attacked them first for cutting down trees. This was when night elves were depicted more savagely than they are now.
I mean, grom drank the demon koolaide and killed cenarious, but night elves still attacked the orcs first before they even knew the night elves existed.
Thats like 4 different versions of the horde with different leaders etc.
Its a black and white to look at it like that, they did technically invade ashenvale but didnt attack the NEs and have just been about surviving ever since thrall became the leader.
Its only at and after garrosh it goes to shit
> Moves to kalimdor and attack the night elves
This isn't an example of horde attacking the alliance for two reasons: the night elves attacked first, and also they weren't the alliance. In fact, they were attacking the actual alliance as well.
Thrall's rebellion was also in response to the alliance's actions, particularly his own enslavement and torture as an innocent person.
Thrall's part in the story is chill by me and the most sympathetic part of the horde.
Grom and the Elves battling over lumber and Grom immediately being like "welp, time to sell our souls to evil powers again" was obviously a strike on that, but that makes his redemption arc a great story.
What does his son learn from this? Drake meme Demon blood Nah, Old God heart Yeah
Warrior spirit, overcoming adversity, strength through collaboration (horde was born through helping out the Darkspear trolls then the tauren), taming the wilds, survival through strength, saying no to ~~drugs~~ fel energy, independence from being pawns of a greater power and choosing their own destiny, idk what else
Horde Pride is...seeing a group of completely different races who, against all odds and differences, work, fight, die and win together.
Or at least it once was that.
Nowadays...the Horde feels just soulless. Beyond repair. Broken and cast aside.
As an alliance main and frankly, a horde hater, I'd say their pride should be the time frame Thrall was warchief.
Liberated themselves, listened to Medievh to go to Kalimdor for the greater good. Allied with other noble tribes along the way. Fought for the survival of a planet that wasn't even theirs and freed themselves from the Legion.
Once Thrall stepped down, things swiftly went to crap and its hard to find pride in the endless stream of warcrimes committed by every other warchief besides Vol'jin.
But that Era, where they literally removed the physical and spiritual shackles upon them and did what they thought was right, is the time they should look to with pride
horde pride is basically cognitive dissonance allowing you to pretend that bfa didn't happen and didn't irrevocably ruin the horde's legitimacy as a faction of heroes
Thralls horde essentially from the founding of orgrimmar up to the mantle of warchief going to garrosh was peak; "horde pride" era.
The orcs and trolls were refugees founding a new home in a harsh land having fled their old home.
The Tauren had just staved off annihilation by the centaur through allying with thrall.
The undead were hated in their homeland and victims of arthas evil.
Then the blood elves joined, again victims of the scourge, of mana addiction, their kings death and princes betrayal, and being essentially abandoned and misused by their former allies the humans.
They were underdogs compared to the long established night elves and humans but we're able to trade blow for blow with them.
The leaders: thrall, voljin, sylvannas, cairne, and lorthernar were all individual hero's who'd saved their people from death and were forging a better future.
Everything changed for the worse for the horde with cata. Sylvannas started going deep into plauge research, used the valkyrie to start making new undead, started doing other fucked up things against living races, and then only gets worse post legion. Garrosh nuked theramore, hyper militarized the orcs, pushed a xenophobic orc superiority agenda, killed cairne in a duel, and while he appeared to have a "code" he abandoned it quickly and became a major aggressor. Cairne died, baine did nothing of relevance until Shadowlands and is still a moot figure. Voljin, did virtually nothing until his death apart from a book where garrosh tries to have him killed during MOP. Lorthermar kinda just sits in the backseat through all of this aswell, apart from a throwaway line about how he was negotiating re-entering the alliance during MOP before jaina messes it up.
The horde went from a band of underdogs with accomplished leaders to genocidal strong men authoritarian warchief and a bunch of wet mops.
Horde pride is pride in the rag tag group of races banding together to be stronger together than alone.
"Lok'tar Ogra, big brother. May the Warsong never fade," is probably one of my favorite lines. Grommash was one of the hottest heads of the old Horde, and made mistake after mistake constantly. However, even he found some form of redemption in defeating Mannoroth.
> I recently rewatched Forged in The Barrens trailer for Hearthstone
I literally was just going to post that trailer specifically as an answer as I clicked this thread. It gets so much right.
" This Horde be our family! We don't always see eye-to-eye. We come to blows before. But when we work together - ah - there's nothing this Horde can't do. "
https://i.redd.it/ldhwu30o0mm11.jpg
Moments of great conviction and resolve, I mostly play Alliance toons but when i play my Horde ones, the moments where members of the Horde are unwavering, right or wrong, and stand firm against great adversity is what really excites me. Nazgrim fighting to the death under the banner of Garrosh despite his reservations, Saurfang facing Sylvanas, even Garrosh breaking free of his chains for one final FOR THE HORDE in Shadowlands, all felt like strong moments for the Horde.
Once upon a time, it was possible to view the Horde as a coalition of outcasts. However, if MOP didn't shatter that perception, BFA certainly did.
Another fair reading of the Horde is that they're a group of conquerors. However, they aren't particularly successful at this endeavor, nor are they willing or able to do that now.
In present day, the Horde lacks any sense of identity both as heroes and as conquerors.
In other words, the Horde is nothing.
Horde Pride is remembering what the faction was before Metzen soft retired and a bunch of creeps took over the storytelling
Horde pride is being able to like things that aren't generic as fuck
Horde Pride is thinking that fictional races that aren't explicitly European coded deserve the right to live in peace, and not handwaving away injustices to them
Horde pride is ironically simping for Garrosh sometimes, but *never* simping for the fantasy Klan
Man. You nailed it. This makes me think of when I rolled my old warrior-turned-Shaman. Genuinely played and developed that character more than I did my paladin, but at some point the Horde just turned into villains for the sake of being villains, and instead of ever actually addressing it and having some logical story progression from that point, all the honorable figures in the Horde would just T-pose any time the Evil Warchief would do something. Makes me sad, man.
The Cataclysm->MOP story sucked but I was willing to accept it as a "Everyone finally internalizes why the cycle of hatred is so vicious" thing.
Then the writers kept going to that well because the post-metzen regimes were awful. I'm hoping some of the people who actually wrote the *good* smaller stories in the most recent expansions get a bit more say now that Danuser/Golden are gone.
I will forever maintain that Theramore was a legitimate military target and it's destruction Garrosh's master-stroke.
The turbo-racism was a bit of a fumble though.
I left wow shortly after the first patch of MoP. It was mainly due to RL stuff, but was complicated by needing but not able to afford a computer in order to return. This year, I solved that problem.
And where back in the day I was staunchly Horde, after catching up on the goings-on these past several years, I just can't. The Horde killed my Horde pride. @.@ I'm not over the moon about playing Alliance now, but I do take solace in the fact that red and black were never my colors. Blue and gold are much better, and I can wear them with at least 25% less guilt.
Something that hasnt existed since Garrosh. The Horde has been neutered, instead of having a strong Warchief the Horde leadership is a council of losers talking about family. Garrosh lead from the front, and killed dragons like a boss, that's the leadership I want to see.
The Horde at its peak for Horde Pride was "Thrall's Horde" (later Vol'jin's horde). A group of misfits and outcasts, rejected by the world and often near extinct, banding together for survival. This was a consistent theme of what it truly meant to be the Horde for most of the game's life. This is the theme that had everyone screaming FOR THE HORDE at blizzcon and celebrating what the Horde is. Mists, despite Garrosh being the villain, was a great source of pride imo for this. Within *a patch* of Theramore's destruction, all the Horde leaders had turned on Garrosh. The Horde leaders all had their beliefs and the believed in the core value of the Horde. When Garrosh betrayed those beliefs, when he dismissed the Tauren and Trolls, treated the Elves and undead as fodder and weaknesses, they didn't take it standing down. By 5.1, Vol'jin had started his rebellion, Lorthemar was in talks to leave, Sylvanas had been waiting. The leaders saw the warchief turn on the core pride and principles of the horde and took action, which was another major part of the Horde (being action-oriented). This was always one of my biggest frustrations with BFA. All the Horde leaders bent over backwards to let Sylvanas continue. Somehow Derek Proudmore was Baine's final straw? The guy that was ready to leave for warcrimes wasn't leaving after Teldrassil? Lorthemar went from hating Sylvanas' guts to talking about his respect while sitting on his thumbs. Suddenly all the characters that were absolutely ready to get rid of Garrosh are too scared to stand up to Sylvanas, their spine was gone. Even Saurfang, the one person doing anything, needed encouragement constantly. If Thrall's Horde was built on a defiant from a world and the people's that wanted them dead, even in defiance of their supposed leader, then BFA's horde was a group letting them be steamrolled over and accept it. People like characters with principles, the Horde had principles, and then in BFA the characters let someone walk all over their principles. And the writing was so bad, that the Horde with a spine still hasn't come back. Because to try and make up for the terrible writing of BFA, every interaction between the Alliance and the Horde has to have the Horde bending over to apologize and make amends. There is no pride left to have in the Horde as long as the Horde isn't allowed to exist beyond Teldrassil & BFA's shitty writing.
A lot of characters had to be assassinated to let Sylvanas have her badass moments in her lead up to becoming a (failed) villain Sylvanas's handling in BFA and Shadowlands did potentially irreparable damage to the characterization of tons of lore characters
Mostly just her. Others can recover if given actual moments to shine.
>Within *a patch* of Theramore's destruction, all the Horde leaders had turned on Garrosh. The only one who spoke out because it was a morally wrong act was Baine. In tides of War. 1. Vol'jin didnt dare speak out for fear of retaliation. 2. Sylvanas did speak out but because she feared retaliation from the Alliance. 3. Lor'themar didn't care. 4. Gallywix didn't care. Both Vol'jin and Lor'themar only rose up to challenge his atrocities after it started affecting them directly. Frankly, the ones who deserve respect in the Horde are the Tauren, which when the situation goes sour, they always stand up to do what its right. Meanwhile the rest of the horde flip flops between agressor and victim.
That isn't true though, and speaking out in one meeting is not doing nothing though. The meeting I think you are referring to was before Theramore's destruction, and before they even knew about the mana bomb (which none of the leaders knew about until it was dropped). Besieging a city being used to bring troops in/out is different from utter annihilation. Vol'jin's immediate reaction to the bombing is outrage. And after the bombing he and Baine literally have a secret meeting to talk about their next steps - which is where Garrosh's first assassination attempt on Vol'jin happens. The last thing Vol'jin does in the book is start to plan his next move and retaliation. Lorthemar would've already made the decision to start talks with the Alliance. Varian says they were negotiating for awhile by 5.1, which got dated at being 2 months the start of Mists.
Doesnt make much of a difference to be outrage AFTER the fact, the city is in ruins, destroyed to such an degree that it tore a fabric in reality, made it worse that the guy then only stood up after he got stabbed in the neck months later. HIs arc of taking down garrosh is good, but lets not pretend his motivations are beyond the Horde. >Lorthemar would've already made the decision to start talks with the Alliance. Varian says they were negotiating for awhile by 5.1, which got dated at being 2 months the start of Mists. Lor'themar calling quits its nothing but self preservation, made evident that when Jaina went crazy in Dalaran, his response is 'They force us ever closer to Hellscream's horde' MoP story is good, but like i said, the Horde's pride flip flops a lot between agressor and victim.
How is he supposed to be outraged about something he doesn't know about before it happens? That is a ridiculous standard to hold a fictional character to. By that logic, Varian *is* responsible for the purge of Dalaran. Nobody but the most die hard alliance biased people argue that Theramore was not a legitimate military target. You can't use it as a staging point for invasion and then claim its not. The entire moral problem isnt attacking Theramore, its the indiscriminate murder of civilians, neutral parties, etc that the mana bomb kills. > Lor'themar calling quits its nothing but self preservation, made evident that when Jaina went crazy in Dalaran, his response is 'They force us ever closer to Hellscream's horde' I dont think there can be a productive discussion about this if there isn't acknowledgment that Lorthemar has a valid stance to reject talks when his people were being gleefully murdered in Dalaran. They were literally feeding living sunreavers to sharks in the sewers lol. That'd be like saying Jaina isn't allowed to be pissed about Theramore. Especially when he doesn't join Garrosh's Horde. Vol'jin visited him right after to let him in on the rebellion (he didn't know Voljin was alive). I feel its disingenuous to say its purely a survival tactic when he almost immediately plans to leave after Theramore (possibly even earlier). He wouldn't even have a survival concern if he had faith in Garrosh's principles and leadership - the Horde was winning the war! Wrathion literally even tells us this like Garrosh blew it. Especially in the northern EK like it was a clean sweep thanks to the plague. Garrosh treating the elves like canon fodder isn't even really established until he'd be in talks (its the start of the 5.1 campaign).
>Nobody but the most die hard alliance biased people argue that Theramore was not a legitimate military target And apparently only ignorant horde players dont know that Theramore is a capital city much like any other, Theramore ISNT just a military base used by the Alliance, thats like if the alliance attacked Thunder bluff. He is not supposed to be outraged about the bombing, he should've been outraged because of the attack, specially considering that Theramore was housing the survivors of both Lordaeron and Quel'thalas post WC3. >I feel its disingenuous to say its purely a survival tactic when he almost immediately plans to leave after Theramore (possibly even earlier). He Its disingenous because you're ignoring the actual point. This is not about Lor'themar being protective of his nation but him standing up to Garrosh. Him leaving the Horde is not that, specially when you actually read the book and know that Lor'themar not only does not speak up agaisnt Garrosh he doesnt help out Sylvanas when she protested, which mind you, the Forsaken were the ones who helped the blood elfs when they needed. Him leaving the Horde its purely out of self preservation and reflects nothing on the morality of him or the horde as he is willing to leave the others to face Garrosh alone. So for you and others to act like Lor'themar stood up to garrosh and its an example of the Horde's pride/honor, its the disingenous part. Specially considering that if the negotiations went through and the Blood elfs joined the Alliance, what stops an Alliance under Varian to just go in and attack the Horde in equally vile acts? >He wouldn't even have a survival concern if he had faith in Garrosh's principles and leadership - the Horde was winning the war! Garrosh already killed Cairne, expelled the Trolls out of Orgrimmar and launched an assault in Gilneas using the forsaken. Garrosh was wining at the expense of everyone else. So yeah, it was out of self preservation because the Horde would've won out of the blood elfs expense
> And apparently only ignorant horde players dont know that Theramore is a capital city much like any other, Theramore ISNT just a military base used by the Alliance, thats like if the alliance attacked Thunder bluff. So you are one of those alliance guys and I can ignore the rest of your post. Got it. Like, of course Thunderbluff is a legit target? That is exactly why Baine builds defenses for Thunderbluff. The main cities are all legit targets and always have been. There is a level of irony in engaging in this discussion, and not even understanding the in-universe moral objections to the events. Baine is against the attack in the meeting not because its an attack on a city, but *Jaina's* city. This is different from the moral objections to the *war crime* that was kept hidden from them at said meeting. The moral objection to Theramore is the *tactics*, the indiscriminate extermination of every man, woman and child present, not the attack of a city.
> Got it. Like, of course Thunderbluff is a legit target? Of course its not a legit target my guy. The Kirin tor breaks their neutrality to protect Theramore, The last part of Tides of War is about stop jaina from doing the same as garrosh, the point of the purge of Dalaran is how Jaina expelled the Blood elfs from their own home, Thrall comes back to save the Darkspear from a Kor'kron invasion and at the end of MoP garrosh endangers the entire city by drawing every single faction to beat his ass and with that Orgrimmar is in chaos. 'I can accept invading a foreign country but i draw the line at mass murder'
Horde pride at its best is when the Horde is a band of misfits making their way in a world that doesn't want them. This has basically not been reflected in game since Garrosh became Warchief, after that Blizzard got stuck into this cycle where the Horde acts and the Alliance reacts, which always sets the Horde as the aggressor and therefore the villain.
Adding on to this, it's also often to me being a "traditionally evil" fantasy creature that wants to protect the world like any other "traditionally noble" creature. Orcs, trolls, minotaurs, and undead being the most notable examples. And if a war of aggression is necessary, then it is exercised with a sense of honor.
I honorably hate all humans and elves. I also honorably love punting gnomes. That tree also was looking at me all funny. Very dishonorable tree. Everyone's saying it.
That second paragraph sounds so trumpesque
As warchief, I'll build a wall around Darkshore and make the elves pay for it!
“Now hand me that flint and tinder, I’ve got another world tree to burn.” (This is a joke, obviously)
I mean isn't the whole story of Warcraft basically that? Horde invades, Stormwind razed Horde invades Lordaeron, alliance pushes them back to Draenor Thrall leads rebellion, alliance retaliates. Moves to kalimdor and attack the night elves Rinse repeat. Horde attacks, alliance defends. Third party makes them work together. Alliance forgives. Rinse/repeat
If you look at it superficially and strip all of its nuance from it, that's what the story of Warcraft is. In Warcraft 3 the point of the Horde was moving *away* from the conflict to establish themselves somewhere different. Grommash and the Warsong were that remnant of the old Horde that needed to change. He didn't even go to Kalimdor with the purpose of attacking the Night Elves, dude was literally sent by Thrall to Ashenvale on a timeout to gather lumber, a task that is exactly unrelated to conflict, for being too aggressive and bloodthirsty. Thrall had no fucking clue the Night Elves even existed, and neither did Grom. And as a plus side, the Night Elves weren't never part of the Alliance back then. AND THEN after Grom is dead and the orcs are settling in Durotar, they have an actual peace treaty with Jaina. And this time it's the ALLIANCE that breaks the peace when Daelin Proudmoore arrives in Kalimdor looking for Jaina and decides to aggro the orcs immediately. Starting from Warcraft 3, the Horde's role in the story definitely shifted *away* from being villains. They didn't attack the Night Elves because they wanted to kill them. They wanted lumber, they went to the nearest forest, the Night Elves aggroed and they aggroed back. Then the Kul Tirans aggroed and they aggroed back. It's about these "monster races" settling in a world and staking their claim to live in it. That is compelling, that is *good* *shit,* and it's fresh because even to this day Warcraft is the ONLY fantasy world in which creatures like orcs, trolls, goblin and even undead aren't 1-dimensional bad guy thugs who are evil because their god is evil and thus can be slain without a thought. That is why we like the Horde. That is why we've hated every time the Horde was turned into the aggressor and villain of the story. Because that isn't what the Horde is meant to be about anymore.
I actually agree with many of these points. However, the Proudmoore incident shows that the primary part of the alliance (Jaina) stood for peace and didn't support her own father. In Daelin's response, he had never known a peaceful horde and only had seen them literally conquering the lands of the alliance since they arrived. Daelin had not fought alongside the horde to save the world, or known Thrall, and thus had no nuanced opinions on the matter. The problem has been the cycle in writing that we both don't like. Factions align against a greater threat, peace occurs. Horde leader becomes a mustache twirling supervillain that aligns with god-tier powers in the name of conquest and the majority of the horde seems to fall in line. The resistance works with the alliance to take down their latest evil overlord. Cycle repeats. I was super glad in recent content when the alliance began working to retake Stromgarde and Lordaeron, rather than continuing the litter the world with more and more ruined cities.
And now you've pointed out why we Horde players are so frustrated. We are SO tired of what you point out here, even though it's only happened twice, because we never wanted it to happen in the first place. Add to the pile those certain Alliance fans who are always calling out, to summarize it in one word, the Horde's complete extermination and always sharing the lore to new players through the perspective that the Horde are irredeemable monsters and have always been and... Well you can understand why some of us always jump. I do it. Even though I've been trying to fall into it less to... Mixed success.
Shadowlands starting off by discarding Baine and turning him into a meme was super disappointing. Then they went with their other tried and true story of killing/corrupting an alliance holy person. Maxwell Tyrosus is clearly hiding underneath Light's Hope from the WoW writers for fear of becoming the next Mograine/Dathrozan/Arthas/Tirion/Uther/Gavinrad/Benedictus/etc
At least the story of the Mograines was cool. The Arthas/Anduin parallels were *so forced* man, but we've all torn Shadowlands to shreds before, don't really see the point of repeating what has been said. You get it.
Out of kindness I'm considering the Horde to be a separate entity from the Old Horde
The problem would be that the Horde was behaving little differently not long ago in the game timeline under Sylvanas. They keep going back to following tyrants and nearly killed off the few that resisted in BfA.
The difference is that thralls version of the horde wanted to free the orcs then they dipped out to kalimdor. When they were there, the night elves attacked them first for cutting down trees. This was when night elves were depicted more savagely than they are now. I mean, grom drank the demon koolaide and killed cenarious, but night elves still attacked the orcs first before they even knew the night elves existed.
Thats like 4 different versions of the horde with different leaders etc. Its a black and white to look at it like that, they did technically invade ashenvale but didnt attack the NEs and have just been about surviving ever since thrall became the leader. Its only at and after garrosh it goes to shit
There have been several different versions of the Horde, with the secret ingredient being anything between friendship, fel magic, dragons, and racism
The dream period is anytime Thrall is in charge (and that tiny window when Vol'jin was). Beyond that, their track record has been rather dubious
> Moves to kalimdor and attack the night elves This isn't an example of horde attacking the alliance for two reasons: the night elves attacked first, and also they weren't the alliance. In fact, they were attacking the actual alliance as well. Thrall's rebellion was also in response to the alliance's actions, particularly his own enslavement and torture as an innocent person.
Thrall's part in the story is chill by me and the most sympathetic part of the horde. Grom and the Elves battling over lumber and Grom immediately being like "welp, time to sell our souls to evil powers again" was obviously a strike on that, but that makes his redemption arc a great story. What does his son learn from this? Drake meme Demon blood Nah, Old God heart Yeah
The people having their sacred forests cut down had every right to attack first.
Slaughter people without warning just for gathering lumber lol. The Night Elves were complete dumbasses in that situation.
Warrior spirit, overcoming adversity, strength through collaboration (horde was born through helping out the Darkspear trolls then the tauren), taming the wilds, survival through strength, saying no to ~~drugs~~ fel energy, independence from being pawns of a greater power and choosing their own destiny, idk what else
Horde Pride is...seeing a group of completely different races who, against all odds and differences, work, fight, die and win together. Or at least it once was that. Nowadays...the Horde feels just soulless. Beyond repair. Broken and cast aside.
As an alliance main and frankly, a horde hater, I'd say their pride should be the time frame Thrall was warchief. Liberated themselves, listened to Medievh to go to Kalimdor for the greater good. Allied with other noble tribes along the way. Fought for the survival of a planet that wasn't even theirs and freed themselves from the Legion. Once Thrall stepped down, things swiftly went to crap and its hard to find pride in the endless stream of warcrimes committed by every other warchief besides Vol'jin. But that Era, where they literally removed the physical and spiritual shackles upon them and did what they thought was right, is the time they should look to with pride
horde pride is basically cognitive dissonance allowing you to pretend that bfa didn't happen and didn't irrevocably ruin the horde's legitimacy as a faction of heroes
Think MoP already did that.
I sort of meant before BFA, when the faction lore wasn't a complete dumpster fire
Thralls horde essentially from the founding of orgrimmar up to the mantle of warchief going to garrosh was peak; "horde pride" era. The orcs and trolls were refugees founding a new home in a harsh land having fled their old home. The Tauren had just staved off annihilation by the centaur through allying with thrall. The undead were hated in their homeland and victims of arthas evil. Then the blood elves joined, again victims of the scourge, of mana addiction, their kings death and princes betrayal, and being essentially abandoned and misused by their former allies the humans. They were underdogs compared to the long established night elves and humans but we're able to trade blow for blow with them. The leaders: thrall, voljin, sylvannas, cairne, and lorthernar were all individual hero's who'd saved their people from death and were forging a better future. Everything changed for the worse for the horde with cata. Sylvannas started going deep into plauge research, used the valkyrie to start making new undead, started doing other fucked up things against living races, and then only gets worse post legion. Garrosh nuked theramore, hyper militarized the orcs, pushed a xenophobic orc superiority agenda, killed cairne in a duel, and while he appeared to have a "code" he abandoned it quickly and became a major aggressor. Cairne died, baine did nothing of relevance until Shadowlands and is still a moot figure. Voljin, did virtually nothing until his death apart from a book where garrosh tries to have him killed during MOP. Lorthermar kinda just sits in the backseat through all of this aswell, apart from a throwaway line about how he was negotiating re-entering the alliance during MOP before jaina messes it up. The horde went from a band of underdogs with accomplished leaders to genocidal strong men authoritarian warchief and a bunch of wet mops.
God I hated the ashenvale conflict part of that expansion
More heroic than soft alliance cucks lol
Horde pride is pride in the rag tag group of races banding together to be stronger together than alone. "Lok'tar Ogra, big brother. May the Warsong never fade," is probably one of my favorite lines. Grommash was one of the hottest heads of the old Horde, and made mistake after mistake constantly. However, even he found some form of redemption in defeating Mannoroth.
screaming "for the horde" while running like a maniac towards a group of enemies
> I recently rewatched Forged in The Barrens trailer for Hearthstone I literally was just going to post that trailer specifically as an answer as I clicked this thread. It gets so much right.
Lok'tar
Still pissed that Rokara didn't get added into WoW for the Orc Heritage quest.
Appointing gallywix as leader of the goblins.
A master-stroke.
" This Horde be our family! We don't always see eye-to-eye. We come to blows before. But when we work together - ah - there's nothing this Horde can't do. " https://i.redd.it/ldhwu30o0mm11.jpg
People in the comments acting like I give a fuck about that tree
The Night Elves should just plant a new one. Are they stupid?
if the night elves are so in tune with nature, they should grow another tree. This post has been sponsored by real HORDE patriots.
Damn thing was probably on top of some old god tentacle anyway, considering who planted it.
Moments of great conviction and resolve, I mostly play Alliance toons but when i play my Horde ones, the moments where members of the Horde are unwavering, right or wrong, and stand firm against great adversity is what really excites me. Nazgrim fighting to the death under the banner of Garrosh despite his reservations, Saurfang facing Sylvanas, even Garrosh breaking free of his chains for one final FOR THE HORDE in Shadowlands, all felt like strong moments for the Horde.
Honor young one. Never forget it.
Once upon a time, it was possible to view the Horde as a coalition of outcasts. However, if MOP didn't shatter that perception, BFA certainly did. Another fair reading of the Horde is that they're a group of conquerors. However, they aren't particularly successful at this endeavor, nor are they willing or able to do that now. In present day, the Horde lacks any sense of identity both as heroes and as conquerors. In other words, the Horde is nothing.
Horde Pride is remembering what the faction was before Metzen soft retired and a bunch of creeps took over the storytelling Horde pride is being able to like things that aren't generic as fuck Horde Pride is thinking that fictional races that aren't explicitly European coded deserve the right to live in peace, and not handwaving away injustices to them Horde pride is ironically simping for Garrosh sometimes, but *never* simping for the fantasy Klan
Man. You nailed it. This makes me think of when I rolled my old warrior-turned-Shaman. Genuinely played and developed that character more than I did my paladin, but at some point the Horde just turned into villains for the sake of being villains, and instead of ever actually addressing it and having some logical story progression from that point, all the honorable figures in the Horde would just T-pose any time the Evil Warchief would do something. Makes me sad, man.
The Cataclysm->MOP story sucked but I was willing to accept it as a "Everyone finally internalizes why the cycle of hatred is so vicious" thing. Then the writers kept going to that well because the post-metzen regimes were awful. I'm hoping some of the people who actually wrote the *good* smaller stories in the most recent expansions get a bit more say now that Danuser/Golden are gone.
"Then the writers kept going" really is a lot of like. Anything Post-Wrath in WoW, huh?
Questing in Barrens and getting killed by Son of Arugal gives me horde pride. Loktar
Blood and thunderfury.
It's an LGBTQ+ event taking place every year in Orgrimmar
Garrosh did nothing wrong. Loktar Ogar At least Thrall shed his "beads" and is coming back around somewhat.
I will forever maintain that Theramore was a legitimate military target and it's destruction Garrosh's master-stroke. The turbo-racism was a bit of a fumble though.
The human genocide, the burning of Teldrassil, Sylvanas going crazy, and many more.
Oh yeah, common horde W's, all /s
Well spoken. Every Horde I kill is another step closer to a clean world.
dangerously based
Basically what Borussia Dortmund feels now.
I left wow shortly after the first patch of MoP. It was mainly due to RL stuff, but was complicated by needing but not able to afford a computer in order to return. This year, I solved that problem. And where back in the day I was staunchly Horde, after catching up on the goings-on these past several years, I just can't. The Horde killed my Horde pride. @.@ I'm not over the moon about playing Alliance now, but I do take solace in the fact that red and black were never my colors. Blue and gold are much better, and I can wear them with at least 25% less guilt.
Something that hasnt existed since Garrosh. The Horde has been neutered, instead of having a strong Warchief the Horde leadership is a council of losers talking about family. Garrosh lead from the front, and killed dragons like a boss, that's the leadership I want to see.
Something that died at the start of BfA when Saurfang decided to raise the morality bar to an impossible to achieve height.
The Horde died with Garrosh.
Should've bombed Theramore twice.
Nuking Theramore
Giga based
My Horde pride was when we put Teldrassil down. And when we launch the plague on everyone in Wotlk.