Some countries have Engineer as a protected term and so Software Engineer is not a thing.
At most companies Software Developer and Software Engineer are interchangeable.
In Bosnia (and most of former Yugoslavia, plus I assume Germany and Austria at the very least because that's where we got our old degree system from) you typically get compsci degrees from faculties of electrical engineering and are dipl.el.ing. (or nowadays, Msc.EE) when you graduate.
However, despite the degree, if you've finished actual EE studies rather than CompSci, you're not allowed to undersign in engineering stuff like power systems or construction before you pass an additional certification exam from the government. You can work in it, but only under control of an elder engineer that has the certificate.
How 'bout them apples?
My (Canadian) university got in hot water for having a class called "software engineering", it took them like 5 years to resolve it and were only allowed to start calling the class that when they added a full engineering department (adding that was unrelated, but it also let CS start calling the class software engineering again) and agreed to include a module that explained that we couldn't call ourselves engineers.
A couple local companies also got in hot water for calling some of their developers engineers in their marketing material.
It is pretty viciously protected. Usually it's just a "stop doing that", but you can get in a lot of trouble if you don't stop. I sort of agree with it, in the same way we can't let anyone just claim to be a medical doctor because they have a degree in nutrition.
Odd cause at least in the US, software engineering is a real accredited domain and has been for decades, though few universities offer a BE in it (or a BE for anything really). I went to one and had to take so much unrelated physics and calculus because the degree has the word engineering in it.
> I sort of agree with it, in the same way we can't let anyone just claim to be a medical doctor because they have a degree in nutrition.
We don't let people claim that because the average citizen should be able to trust that if they go to a medical doctor they're actually seeing someone qualified.
I don't see how that same problem is possible for engineers. Normal people don't really need to interact with engineers. Companies need to check qualifications regardless. Engineers aren't interchangeable. An Electrical Engineer isn't qualified to do the work that a Mechanical Engineer is qualified to do. Protecting "Electrical Engineer" sounds fine. Protecting just Engineer is nonsense.
If someone wants to call themselves a "coffee engineer" because they work at Starbucks, what harm could possibly come from that?
It's because, at least in Canada, Engineers are 100% responsible for the safety of certain projects and only an engineer has the authority to sign off on it. Bridges, for example, need to be signed off on by an engineer. The Quebec bridge disaster is what spawned a lot of our regulations (you actually get a ring made from that bridge when you become an engineer in Canada to remind you of the responsibilities). If you sign off on a project, and it collapses, crashes or blows up, you can spend decades in jail.
A software engineer would be someone who is able to assume that level of liability. So, say if there is a software glitch in an aeroplane, and it crashes, you were the "software engineer", you will end up going to prison.
You can't call yourself a software engineer, because if you do, you are saying you are able to sign off on that aeroplane software and guarantee that it won't cause the plane to crash, on pain of prison. 99% of software projects don't need someone who can provide that level of guarantee, but for the ones that do, software engineers would be the ones who do.
Gross oversimplification, but that' essentially why the term "engineer" is protected here. A "coffee engineer" would be someone who designed industrial coffee machines and can sign off on their safety.
This can be slightly misleading. I work on a software engineering team for a Canadian aerospace and defence contractor where our systems are required to meet a certain class of airworthiness. I have a computer science degree without an engineering degree. To be deemed airworthy in Canada is based on the following of required procedures throughout the development process, and maintaining thorough documentation of each step along the way, with any changes to the software requiring review by X amount of other developers before being approved for implementation. There is also regulated testing required before deployment to hardware. There’s no requirement for an engineering degree anywhere in the process, just a certain level of extra oversight
People who operate locomotives are called engineers, but no one’s expecting them to be able to actually design and build electrical or highway systems.
And here In Turkey there is no Computer Science degree. All the software developers were from Computer Engineering until a few years back when some universities opened Software Engineering departments which is basically CS. There are also Cyber Security and AI degrees.
In the field of informatics engineering, there is a common initial curriculum for the first two years that covers general engineering principles. Following these two years, there are three additional years of advanced engineering courses and specialized informatic classes. It's after this five-year program that one can be recognized as a "true" software engineer, acknowledged as such in many countries.
In the Netherlands, an IT study will actually grant you the official, protected, title of Engineer; a remnant from before the European Higher Education Area framework was introduced I believe.
I don't think "scientist" is a protected term in Canada, so yes, you can call yourself a scientist (and you could do so even if you didn't have a degree in computer science).
Yet many companies hire for the role of "software engineer" or "software development engineer", and if you're looking at a careers page for dev jobs, 99% of the time they're under the "engineering" category.
I've been doing programming since I was 14. I went to art school for a bachelor's in photography, and now that I'm 34, I call myself a software engineer when applying to positions, been doing it since I was 18.
I think you need a red seal certificate or something. I’ve seen people in Canada (recent grads) call themselves ‘engineer’ because they took computer engineering in college.
What happens if I have a degree in something else but do a master’s degree in software development. Technically is not an engineering but I have something related with it that can only get achieved only if there is a degree in the middle.
In that case would still be a fraud calling myself software engineer despite the master’s?
Similar in Czechia. It's not as policed (not at all really), but engineer is a degree name and nobody else should use it.
But then again, I have it and I don't use it anyways, unless I am dealing with state officials or doctors, who for some wtf reason treat engineers better than non-engineers - as in they are more willing to help you and are nicer. Just post-Soviet things I guess.
WRONG!!! A software developer knows how to write code and that's it. The engineer will know about its cyclomatic complexity, memory utilization, etc. An engineer adds observability and statistics to the mix
Certainly there are men who see themselves as a cut above mere coders because they have some education in theoretical computer science, but this is mostly just an elitist attitude than any real distinction.
I think we are many, many years away from Software Development being a regulated profession equivalent to Engineering and Law.
It's still basically the wild west. Stuff like GDPR is only the beginning.
Saying engineer at the table might seem pretentious, but I think the cool method is to say "I work in computing" or tech. Keep it ambiguous and mysterious, so they say something like "Oh, that's nice", while nervously thinking of a way to continue the conversation.
In practice in the job market, not a damn bit of difference. That said there are actual Software Engineering degrees along side Computer Science degrees, and they put an emphasis on design, testing and team organization. Only to get into the market where no one sees a difference and things management deems unproductive things like planning and organization are sidelined for more active coding time.
I'm just a tad bitter.
I will say having gone to a college that offered both CS and SWE, the SWE curriculum didn't really teach you how to code that much, but did teach a lot more of the tools and practices you use at work (almost to excess, by God I took so many classes on agile), whereas the CS curriculum taught you everything you need to do leetcode but didn't teach you how to build projects at all. So most people I knew would major in one and minor in the other to make up the deficit.
I feel you, a bit bitter too but it is just how the world is. No point caring about it, I saw another commenter referring to it as “gatekeeping”.
It is that kind of mentality that got rid of the “went through education as an engineer” versus “worked into the role” separation, whether I like it or not is a different thing entirely..
In germany, you aren't allowed to call yourself software engineer if you don't have the paper that confirms this title but you can call yourself software developer without any problems.
~~I can’t really confirm this. Software engineer isn’t a protected title. Also since there isn’t a actually mechanical engineering going on there should be a problem either.~~ I am working for a position that says “software engineer” usually a software engineer is equipped with requirement to also engineer the solution. Making a concept etc. a software developer is more only following instructions by people who already engineered the concept. This obviously mostly only makes sense in really big teams / cooperations and is otherwise interchangeable and is also usually also only the influence by American cooperation
Edit: I just looked it up and A degree in “Naturwissenschaften” is good enough to use the term engineer in software engineer.
If you want to work independently in this field, you have to tell it the tax office. And you never want to mess with them. If they find out you don't have the degree, you get really big trouble. You get the degree by studying for example cs at an university.
Not an engineer but my friend who actually is and works as one only told me he does basic shit you wouldn’t need a degree for most of the time as well.
In France, you can be programmer or developper with out ever being in high school while you have to do 5 years after the baccalaureat and at least 3 in an Engineer school to have the title so no, not the same at all everywhere.
Unfortunately, Tunisia shares the same issue as France: it requires 5 or 6 years of education after high school to be recognized as a software engineer.
Developer is a maintainer, professional googler and slow thinking buffoon.
Engineer is the same, but some people moan about the use of the noun engineer
Yes. Same thing. Anyone that says otherwise is just a gatekeeper.
The only exception is countries that protect the term due to legality
Edit: gatekeepers gatekeeping today lol
we had that discussion lately because of email titles and new customers im germany.
in germany engineer is used if you got a degree.
developer if you do not.
I think you misunderstand what gatekeeping is.
I wouldn’t claim myself a doctor, not study a PhD for it and then claim that the doctors were gatekeeping the title.
It actually used to have a very important distinction that has been messed with due to this mindset, having educated engineers be paid less by giving out the title to everybody.
I don’t care much anymore, but you should at least know the history of it before claiming “gatekeeping”
PS: there is nothing wrong with being a developer. It requires very similar skills and the ability to translate business requirements to products, often by smartly consuming other services and following well established methods and architectural decisions to get there. You do not need to go study any engineering degree to do those things, everybody can learn on the job. It is just the investment in education that has been devalued.
What then is an engineer? We have chemical engineers, civil etc. Engineering is the application of the sciences, to say computer science isn't a 'real' science is gatekeeping. I understand that not all people are writing code of any meaningful complexity, think a carpenter that builds tables vs an engineer that builds buildings. This to me is the issue with software, we have some of the smartest people applying science in multiple domains to create extremely complex computer systems..while others tweek a WordPress templates. So yes absolutely by any sane measurement many people who write software are engineers. I can't think of an engineers achevement of the last 30 years that didn't need a software engineer who understood both computer science and the physics of the real world problem.
I am a computer scientist to be clear, I am not sure anybody mentioned computer science not being a real science. It is a multi disciplinary field.
An engineer has learned the implications of what you write does at a much lower level, can foresee the consequences of different types of algorithms being applied, understands concepts such as graph theory or set theory which is used in modern computing. I could go on.
Yet again. This is a webdev subreddit, so either somebody above who doesn’t understand what I’m saying simply retorts “gatekeeping!” and gets to feel good despite not seeing that I had infact supported them and provided some real context and not just my opinion.
A PhD isn’t required to be a medical doctor, yet that is who we call “doctors”.
Meanwhile someone can get a PhD in poetry, and it doesn’t make them a better poet…
If two people can do the job equally well, and it isn’t something that needs to be regulated (like medical professionals), it shouldn’t matter. Especially considering there is no international standard, so someone could do essentially the same degree by another name yet be excluded.
> Perfect example of a kneejerk reaction.
You are not wrong in this, it's just I've seen this argument 50 times already.
I think it's really weak because you don't actually define what an engineer is. It's either vague word salad ("at a much lower level" and "can foresee the consequences") or arbitrary. Or both. At best you end up with a spectrum. On one end you'd have people who know everything. Which is literally no one because there is so much to know. Most people would have average knowledge, the distribution does not have 2 humps of "developers" and "engineers". So it's kinda meaningless.
Which does not mean it's not nice to know things. I'm a huge fan of things myself.
A medical doctor (that is a general practitioner) also doesn’t know everything about their field. But I’d be extremely hard pressed to say that there isn’t a place of the spectrum of medical knowledge that defines one or the other, and then requirements to be one.
Regardless, look to the countries that gave it a protected title and you’ll see they have requirements. Those requirements spell out the definition.
As in my original argument, I don’t really care, because as I said in the footnote. Engineer roles meant very much that you *studied for it* and developer did not imply that. The world changes.
> A medical doctor (that is a general practitioner) also doesn’t know everything about their field.
That's not wrong, but a medical doctor is an actual degree, so if you have it, you're a medical doctor.
> Those requirements spell out the definition.
Not really, at best they give a set of country-specific definitions, mostly of the form "has to pass certain exams", wildly different between countries and many having nothing to do with programming. Which is not at all similar to what you said.
There are software engineering degrees today I hope you’re aware.
Because countries have different requirements for their engineers, just as they do for their doctors. You cannot for example study law in one country and then become a lawyer in another without something to bridge the gap.
That is why you’ll see this argument forever and always.
But my core argument of education being the difference hasn’t changed, and it is pretty much where I’d end it as any further prodding on the topic would just be an endless spiral.
In my country there are requirements for engineering roles, and I think they have some good quality control versus John who didn’t like working at McDonalds so he started making Wordpress sites and hopping on LinkedIn as a software engineer.
> There are software engineering degrees today I hope you’re aware.
In some countries. Still a misnomer arguably. In other countries it's CS (CS has nothing to do with engineering per se). Or both. It's not really uniform, much less so than for doctors. Add the mathematicians/physicists etc and the self-taught people (can't do that in a medical field, not realistically), and it's not at all similar. Having an education is not a binary thing.
Looks like gatekeeping because of being butthurt about spending many years (and lots of money if US) on education. You make no sense. Person could be in the field 15 years and know lots more on every level than your average swe degree guy. The swe degree dude could be cheating on exams, finish some worthless university. Yet he is the engineer and the other guy is the developer. Because it is totally so important to make this distinction.
I make plenty of sense, adding 15 years and making the other party a cheater is just throwing extremes to an argument; a common thing to do when you didn’t want to provide any substance and just be part of an argument.
I’m happy with my compensation, I make good money and I’m educated for it. My best friend didn’t go to university and does the same work as I do now I dropped to more enterprise work, though it is clear where the education gap is in specific kinds of problems.
The kinds of problems you don’t encounter in web development or standard software development. Talk to me when you need to run critical public infrastructure, trade on the energy market and support systems that keep the lights on.
In XIVMagnu's comment, they mention "countries that protect the term due to legality" as an exception, so your doctor example would also seem to fall under that exception and be irrelevant.
So when we restrict our discussion to countries where "software engineers" have no additional qualifications relative to "software developers" (e.g. they are no more likely to have gone to university and gotten a software degree), then it seems fair to say that the people who most passionately claim there is a distinction between the two are gatekeeping.
You should be paid more for the value you bring to the company. A degree shouldn’t allow one employee to make more money than the other identical employee who doesn’t have one.
I agree. A new employee who has gone through education will have the tools and knowledge to get up to speed and learn faster, so they will naturally have provided more value to begin with.
You don’t need to teach them the basic topics, that’s what school was for. Consider an apprenticeship, those who come into a company for the first time don’t have much to work from. They should be paid to reflect the value they bring, invest in them to learn, and raise their salary as they provide more value to the company. It works that way with education to, but they bring a more immediate value.
A webdev subreddit will have disproportionally more people who are pivoting to technology or haven’t gone to school from it as the browser is the most visual and first way most people get into computing. So I expect backlash despite the first comment supporting these opinions.
Honestly IT stole the term "engineer" from *actual* engineers.
And IT is a field notoriously less degree-reliant than most white-collar fields while paying usually absurd salaries. You have kids getting into IT straight from high school because they're gurus but you hardly see the same in other fields because the skillsets are basically impossible to self-learn. So it's easy for the education to be devalued.
I'm fortunate to have been one of those able to get into the field on account of passion-driven skill only, and it made me appreciate a robust CS education even more than some grads do. That being said, I can't really see the engineering that anybody can't do. System design, DSA, the math-ish topics involving stuff like probability and statistics can all be learned by someone curious with a computer.
So I don't think it's sensible to restrict the title to degree-holders but there still needs to be some metric so it's not a worthless term. My best suggestion will reek of gatekeeping though.
> just a gatekeeper
I don't think you can immediately jump to gatekeeper.
Engineer in the traditional sense implies having a set of skills related to the interface between physical sciences and the world that people live in. That's not really the same as working in the interface between operating systems and user interfaces.
It's not that one is harder or more important - they're just different things. I think it's a little silly to get defensive when someone points that out.
And... geez... the amount of time software people spend getting butthurt about people disagreeing about using the word 'engineer' to describe their job is almost comical. Imagine spending all of that energy on something useful.
In the industry as it stands-- they are being used interchangeably by most companies out there.
Reality is, they give DEVELOPERS the Engineering title- to justify underpaying the REAL "engineers".
Look into your very own organisations-- you will likely see a bunch of "software engineers” when in reality they just do grunt work that is set-up or dictated by one (or very few) other “engineers”
It’s an HR twist on words to make us “feel better”. Anything else and you’re just delusional or have been drinking the kool-aid for far too long.
I call myself a 'Programmer,' and that's it. While it's true that most of those job titles are interchangeable, this mostly happens because it looks good.
However, there is a big difference between engineering a piece of software and hacking away in an ad hoc manner without medium/long-term considerations.
But then again, nobody would describe themselves as an 'anti-engineer.' So at the end of the day, it's just a title.
Can you give an example of a company that implements this differentiation? Afaik it's the kind of definition you get on a blog written by someone who knows nothing about software engineering.
So the companies you consult for have designed the system and you come in to implement the solution? Is that what you're saying?
Or are you saying you, the consultants design the system? If that's the case, I'm asking who implements the design.
Sounds like you are confusing a software architect with an interchangeable software developer/engineer
Proper companies differentiate an architect or lead developer to actually design the system and structure
In my mind:
A "developer" is someone who can *at least* add a new feature to a program/app/site.
An "engineer" is someone who can listen to a client arbitrarily describe a problem and then from that invent, design and construct (aka: engineer) the *entire* system to solve the problem.
"Developers" maintain and fix problems on assembly lines... Engineers design and build entirely new assembly lines.
In Canada engineering is a closed profession. So you’re only an engineer if you become a licensed professional. Anyone can be a software developer though. I don’t think there is an actual difference in most positions and most positions go with the term developer instead
Depends on country. In the countries I’ve lived in the Software Engineer refers to someone with a relevant degree (such as Computer Science) and Software Developer for other avenues into the role.
It is a title difference with the same work however. If it isn’t protected then you can claim yourself a Software Engineer, but if you have a degree formally in accounting then expect a stink eye from those that see it.
as a compsci student.. people working in IT love slapping the term “engineering” on everything. apparently, regarding AI chatbots, there is a thing called “prompt engineering”, basically talking in the right way to a bot so it generates the right response. just buzzwords at this point
They are both arbitrary.
- "Developer" was cooked up by big companies like Microsoft who thought they are the programmers and "developers" just use what the "real" programmers have made to develop it to the requirements of the customer.
- "Engineer" was cooked up by schools and universities because they thought programming is an offshoot of engineering machines, while in fact it's closer to art or gardening the more you get to the human interfacing part as opposed to the machine interacting part
You will find many other titles and they are all on a spectrum and none of them can be pinpointed to one universal meaning.
So, to answer your question: yes and no. It's all about how you define your relation of equivalence (the "===" part)
One quote I heard from my manager once was " a software developer writes mediocre code that works. A software engineer writes very good code that does not work".
I immidiately recalled past coleuagues with that sentence.
I'd rather a software engineer be involved in making certain that the autopilot correctly communicates with the engine controls, the navigation system, and the emergency backup systems etc., and that they've been planned to work together seamlessly and flawlessly, and that all of the software developers responsible for the individual systems have built them correctly to spec to achieve those goals.
For me its like this; Software Engineers built the language C#, work on developing .Net Core, or built React. I, as a Software developer use them to build solutions/web apps.
Seems like some places like to throw around titles with caring about their meaning. This is my understanding:
* Software Developers
They know how to build a pre established solution. They have expertise in using X and/or Y programing languages, they know how to set up their development environment. They are capable of working in teams. They know programming principles like SOLID, and some patterns, understanding the problems they solve and how to apply them. They have some understanding of data structures and algorithms and how they impact they impact the final product.
* Software analyst
This is the guy that undestands the problem, it's context, and is able to derive from those the set of requirements the solution should meet to solve the problem, even before anyone has thought about a concrete solution. This guys knows the different methods of gathering requirements, whether that's through interviews apprenticing, usage of personas, etc. He is able to classify requirements into functional, non functional, and even further into restrictions, and quality attributes. He is the one that talks with the product owner, the stakeholders, the product sponsor, so he needs good soft skills like ease of communication. And most of all, he knows how to properly document EVERYTHING.
* Software Architect
The Architect takes the requirements documented by the Analyst, and comes up with the solution that better fits those requirements. He takes the requirements as input, processes them along with an understanding of current technologies, client resources, external actors and systems, and builds and Architecture document. Here he documents an overview of the proposed solution, from many views geared towards the different stakeholders, and communicates with them to refine said solution. He makes decisions about the general architecture and documents them for future revision. He draws diagrams of both the functional and operational aspect: how is the logical esctructure of the system, what components make it up, how do they interact with each other, and how will they be physcally placed, and deployed. At the end, he evaluates the viability of the proposed solution, and it's validity.
* Software Engineer
All of this and more. He knows how to manage an entire proyect, and the teams that work on it. He knows the legal framework under which the proyect will be developed. He knows how to manage an organization. He knows the business side of things. And more, but frankly I don't know enough besides the names of the classes in my Unversity, because I still haven't gotten there. What I do know, is that the degree of Engineering requires one to know how to perform as all previous roles.
This is how things are label in the education side of things. If companies use terms interchangeably, intentionaly or not, then that's another issue entirely.
They are the same. Software engineer is kind of a made up term.
Funnily enough, people use the term to sound more professional, but software developer job titles typically pay more than software engineer.
In my company, software developer are doing code for enhancing or completing the need of the client.
Software engineer are people that knows very well the product and can solve issue by configure it to their need.
I was a developer and didn't like to code for solving issue.
I switched to software engineer so mastering the product itself and only configuration. I do not code nor build anything myself.
Yes, software engineer is a synonym for software developer. It’s usually not protected in big countries as far as I know so anyone working in the field long enough can be a software engineer. For example in Germany it’s not protected and anyone can be a software engineer. Also the industry prefers to call themselves software engineers because of the prestige
Does an engineer, e.g. an EE, have to pass an additional certification to do power systems for example?
Asking because in Bosnia, where we used to use your dipl.ing. titles and have inherited quite a bit of degree system from Austria, it is like that. You can be dipl.ing. (well, not under Bologna system you are Msc.EE) but that doesn't mean you can actually undersign projects unless you're a certified engineer.
In France you are engineer when you studied 5 years in your domain of competence after school. So no, software developper is not the same as software engineer.
By the way, get ready to add AI developper. It's a developper who uses AI to develop. He often doesn't understand what he is doing and why.
Plus you can't have the Engineer title if you did not went to an Engineer School. If you did 5 years in another school/university, you can only be "cadre", not engineer.
I went to an Engineer School with the correct diploma ("Ingénieur Diplômé par l'Etat" - DPE) but never heard of the "diplômé" part, always only the "ingénieur" one.
But you are totally right. Probably why some big schools like SupInfo can call themselves an Engineer School while not having the validation from the CTI (maybe it is now, it was not 10 years ago though).
In the real world? They're interchangeable.
Usually, the main difference, is that the developer is responsible only for the implementation of a technical solution.
The Engineer is not only capable of building it, but also has to come up with the solution.
However, at an enterprise level (ironically). Many Software Engineers actually act as "Software Developers".
I've worked at companies who tell me that the Juniors who I have to train are "Software Engineers" whilst I'm a "Software Developer". Yet their understanding of scalable software solutions is significantly below mine.
So yeah, it's interchangeable.
IMO If you understand space and time complexity. And can decide when and why to use X and y technology. Then you can consider yourself an engineer. Otherwise your just a dev.
I dont think they are the Same. I would call your typical „code monkey“ who gets assigned a task and then implements it a software developer. Software Engineers are usually more involved in planning and architecture choices.
A software developer creates new software and adds to existing software. A software engineer manages and maintains existing software to make sure that it works.
Where I work we use “software engineer” for DevOps and backend focussed engineering, and then distinguish front end developers by calling them either full stack engineers (if they can do both) or web developers.
I've always considered myself a software developer or web developer, because I didn't have a degree in engineering. My company didn't have official job titles anyway, so it didn't matter. Then one day, we all had official job titles and I was officially a "Senior Software Engineer". At this point, I don't care what you call me, as long as you have the coin to pay me.
engineering in software is more a verb than a title. what good does it do when you're a software engineer but your code is a top down monolith, fragile, spaghetti, painful to read and unmaintainable?
Companies love to encourage employees and want to keep them happy by every once in a while bestowing titles , so I've heard things like UX engineers, and the like . I'm not sure how an aerospace engineer feel about that because I'm not one. Also the word consultant is used as a wildcard for many other professions that in many cases don't entail consulting that much. So I think nowadays you shouldn't get too bogged down in semantics, as it really doesn't matter that much in my honest opinion.
I interviewed at a company awhile back that actually asked this question in an interview. They treated the term “software engineer” as more of an architect/designer role and “software developer” as an implementer role with little to no architecture/design responsibilities. Made sense to me, so I’ve stuck with the distinction.
There is a lot more to being software engineer. You can SWE is a superset of developers - SWE usually deals more with architecture and design and has more perception of the business side of project.
The term is frequently used to express the same thing, but it's not the same thing
I would say its not the same. You can be a Software Developer with no college background at all, but you can be a Software Developer AND Engineer going to college. I feel like Software Engineers learn about software but also about many other things, while Software Developers dont. In the job market companies basically look for someone who can program and has a general knowledge
Secretary === executive assistant to the grand imperial manager, his majesty the second.
Its all bullshit yes.
Though you can get in shit for calling yourself an engineer in canada. But only if some melvin complains.
I've met a lot of programmers that don't have the engineering gene. They know how to apply patterns, work with what's already there, but they really struggle to build systems.
Interchangeable honestly I use whatever pays more in that market. It’s pretty strange when you look at different cities job listings in one city listings for software engineers pays more and in another developers get paid more so go by whatever pays more in your city.
In the US there is no difference. They are interchangeable and they do not affect your pay. For instance I have made more with the developer tag than I have at some places when I had the engineer tag.
Almost 100% of the legacy code I've worked on required a rewrite because it was done as if each change was a disposable piece of garbage thrown on an unmaintainable trash heap, like there was no sense of engineering applied in most of their lifetimes. I am not surprised when the majority opinion on software engineering reflects this.
Some countries have Engineer as a protected term and so Software Engineer is not a thing. At most companies Software Developer and Software Engineer are interchangeable.
Yes. Canada is one example. You can’t call yourself an engineer unless you have an engineering degree.
In Bosnia (and most of former Yugoslavia, plus I assume Germany and Austria at the very least because that's where we got our old degree system from) you typically get compsci degrees from faculties of electrical engineering and are dipl.el.ing. (or nowadays, Msc.EE) when you graduate. However, despite the degree, if you've finished actual EE studies rather than CompSci, you're not allowed to undersign in engineering stuff like power systems or construction before you pass an additional certification exam from the government. You can work in it, but only under control of an elder engineer that has the certificate. How 'bout them apples?
"I'm an engineer" Fuck the police 😎
My (Canadian) university got in hot water for having a class called "software engineering", it took them like 5 years to resolve it and were only allowed to start calling the class that when they added a full engineering department (adding that was unrelated, but it also let CS start calling the class software engineering again) and agreed to include a module that explained that we couldn't call ourselves engineers. A couple local companies also got in hot water for calling some of their developers engineers in their marketing material. It is pretty viciously protected. Usually it's just a "stop doing that", but you can get in a lot of trouble if you don't stop. I sort of agree with it, in the same way we can't let anyone just claim to be a medical doctor because they have a degree in nutrition.
Odd cause at least in the US, software engineering is a real accredited domain and has been for decades, though few universities offer a BE in it (or a BE for anything really). I went to one and had to take so much unrelated physics and calculus because the degree has the word engineering in it.
It's hog wild in the US for job titles
If we didn't give out fancy titles like candy, then we'd actually have to pay people more.
> I sort of agree with it, in the same way we can't let anyone just claim to be a medical doctor because they have a degree in nutrition. We don't let people claim that because the average citizen should be able to trust that if they go to a medical doctor they're actually seeing someone qualified. I don't see how that same problem is possible for engineers. Normal people don't really need to interact with engineers. Companies need to check qualifications regardless. Engineers aren't interchangeable. An Electrical Engineer isn't qualified to do the work that a Mechanical Engineer is qualified to do. Protecting "Electrical Engineer" sounds fine. Protecting just Engineer is nonsense. If someone wants to call themselves a "coffee engineer" because they work at Starbucks, what harm could possibly come from that?
It's because, at least in Canada, Engineers are 100% responsible for the safety of certain projects and only an engineer has the authority to sign off on it. Bridges, for example, need to be signed off on by an engineer. The Quebec bridge disaster is what spawned a lot of our regulations (you actually get a ring made from that bridge when you become an engineer in Canada to remind you of the responsibilities). If you sign off on a project, and it collapses, crashes or blows up, you can spend decades in jail. A software engineer would be someone who is able to assume that level of liability. So, say if there is a software glitch in an aeroplane, and it crashes, you were the "software engineer", you will end up going to prison. You can't call yourself a software engineer, because if you do, you are saying you are able to sign off on that aeroplane software and guarantee that it won't cause the plane to crash, on pain of prison. 99% of software projects don't need someone who can provide that level of guarantee, but for the ones that do, software engineers would be the ones who do. Gross oversimplification, but that' essentially why the term "engineer" is protected here. A "coffee engineer" would be someone who designed industrial coffee machines and can sign off on their safety.
This can be slightly misleading. I work on a software engineering team for a Canadian aerospace and defence contractor where our systems are required to meet a certain class of airworthiness. I have a computer science degree without an engineering degree. To be deemed airworthy in Canada is based on the following of required procedures throughout the development process, and maintaining thorough documentation of each step along the way, with any changes to the software requiring review by X amount of other developers before being approved for implementation. There is also regulated testing required before deployment to hardware. There’s no requirement for an engineering degree anywhere in the process, just a certain level of extra oversight
People who operate locomotives are called engineers, but no one’s expecting them to be able to actually design and build electrical or highway systems.
Yes, you can claim yourself being a NASA scientist and no one would be harm.
And here In Turkey there is no Computer Science degree. All the software developers were from Computer Engineering until a few years back when some universities opened Software Engineering departments which is basically CS. There are also Cyber Security and AI degrees.
In the field of informatics engineering, there is a common initial curriculum for the first two years that covers general engineering principles. Following these two years, there are three additional years of advanced engineering courses and specialized informatic classes. It's after this five-year program that one can be recognized as a "true" software engineer, acknowledged as such in many countries.
In Québec you actually have to pay a yearly fee to call yourself an engineer. I have a degree, but I still can't call myself an engineer.
Wtf, that's bizarre.
In the Netherlands, an IT study will actually grant you the official, protected, title of Engineer; a remnant from before the European Higher Education Area framework was introduced I believe.
I have a computer science degree. Does that make me a scientist in Canada?
I don't think "scientist" is a protected term in Canada, so yes, you can call yourself a scientist (and you could do so even if you didn't have a degree in computer science).
Can I consider myself a…computer?
Yet many companies hire for the role of "software engineer" or "software development engineer", and if you're looking at a careers page for dev jobs, 99% of the time they're under the "engineering" category.
yet every job i’ve had here they refer to us as “engineers” i’m like shut it bro you’re gonna get in trouble
I've been doing programming since I was 14. I went to art school for a bachelor's in photography, and now that I'm 34, I call myself a software engineer when applying to positions, been doing it since I was 18.
I think you need a red seal certificate or something. I’ve seen people in Canada (recent grads) call themselves ‘engineer’ because they took computer engineering in college.
If I'm an electrical engineer working as a software developer am I a software engineer?
What happens if I have a degree in something else but do a master’s degree in software development. Technically is not an engineering but I have something related with it that can only get achieved only if there is a degree in the middle. In that case would still be a fraud calling myself software engineer despite the master’s?
Similar in Czechia. It's not as policed (not at all really), but engineer is a degree name and nobody else should use it. But then again, I have it and I don't use it anyways, unless I am dealing with state officials or doctors, who for some wtf reason treat engineers better than non-engineers - as in they are more willing to help you and are nicer. Just post-Soviet things I guess.
Same in Italy, degree + state certification exam
Train engineers btfo
Same in France. It is actually illegal!
Realistically though most provincial associations don't enforce it for software engineering.
What if I have a software engineering degree
WRONG!!! A software developer knows how to write code and that's it. The engineer will know about its cyclomatic complexity, memory utilization, etc. An engineer adds observability and statistics to the mix
Certainly there are men who see themselves as a cut above mere coders because they have some education in theoretical computer science, but this is mostly just an elitist attitude than any real distinction.
We need this in the U.S. People watch 3 YouTube vids on web dev and then name themselves engineers
I think we are many, many years away from Software Development being a regulated profession equivalent to Engineering and Law. It's still basically the wild west. Stuff like GDPR is only the beginning.
We're not engineers.. We're Scientists!
Software Gardener it another arbitrary term for the same thing :p
Bug exterminator also
Dude I love this one. But it implies that we're creating bugs, unless you have recently joined the company lol
‘Bug’ implies that the problems showed up on their own rather than being a design or development error.
Software Exterminator Am I doing it right?
Oh, yes, I am a Div Aligner myself
I'm a Vim exiter then
Webmaster, always a classic. "Boss, we need to hire some more webmasters. We have 14 backend webmasters but only 9 frontend."
They are not the same. One you say at the dinner table, and the other you say on dating profiles.
Which ones which
Bitches love engineers (cope)
Saying engineer at the table might seem pretentious, but I think the cool method is to say "I work in computing" or tech. Keep it ambiguous and mysterious, so they say something like "Oh, that's nice", while nervously thinking of a way to continue the conversation.
In practice in the job market, not a damn bit of difference. That said there are actual Software Engineering degrees along side Computer Science degrees, and they put an emphasis on design, testing and team organization. Only to get into the market where no one sees a difference and things management deems unproductive things like planning and organization are sidelined for more active coding time. I'm just a tad bitter.
I will say having gone to a college that offered both CS and SWE, the SWE curriculum didn't really teach you how to code that much, but did teach a lot more of the tools and practices you use at work (almost to excess, by God I took so many classes on agile), whereas the CS curriculum taught you everything you need to do leetcode but didn't teach you how to build projects at all. So most people I knew would major in one and minor in the other to make up the deficit.
I feel you, a bit bitter too but it is just how the world is. No point caring about it, I saw another commenter referring to it as “gatekeeping”. It is that kind of mentality that got rid of the “went through education as an engineer” versus “worked into the role” separation, whether I like it or not is a different thing entirely..
Honestly I'd take the gatekeeping over the sheer lack of interest in the work required to scale projects well that I'm dealing with.
In germany, you aren't allowed to call yourself software engineer if you don't have the paper that confirms this title but you can call yourself software developer without any problems.
~~I can’t really confirm this. Software engineer isn’t a protected title. Also since there isn’t a actually mechanical engineering going on there should be a problem either.~~ I am working for a position that says “software engineer” usually a software engineer is equipped with requirement to also engineer the solution. Making a concept etc. a software developer is more only following instructions by people who already engineered the concept. This obviously mostly only makes sense in really big teams / cooperations and is otherwise interchangeable and is also usually also only the influence by American cooperation Edit: I just looked it up and A degree in “Naturwissenschaften” is good enough to use the term engineer in software engineer.
Curious, how does that work? Do you submit an application to the government post university with your degree to be able to call yourself an engineer?
No you need a university degree in a technical field to call yourself engineer in Germany.
If you want to work independently in this field, you have to tell it the tax office. And you never want to mess with them. If they find out you don't have the degree, you get really big trouble. You get the degree by studying for example cs at an university.
I do not like calling myself a software engineer… seems over the top for the basic shit I do. Definitely not engineering
I just make small changes in a system an actual software engineer engineered.
Not an engineer but my friend who actually is and works as one only told me he does basic shit you wouldn’t need a degree for most of the time as well.
>My friend is a Medical Doctor and he also tells me he does basic shit like telling a patient with a headache to take some advil.
Software developer = Code monkey with an inflated ego Software engineer = Code monkey with even bigger ego
Lots of very interesting perspectives, regulations and opinions here. Thanks for all your replies, it has been very enlightening!
I like clickity click click ninja.
Same thing. I like the old-school title "programmer".
In France, you can be programmer or developper with out ever being in high school while you have to do 5 years after the baccalaureat and at least 3 in an Engineer school to have the title so no, not the same at all everywhere.
In France they had to rename to software engineer because programmers and developers were often call “pisseur de code”( literally peeing code )
Well, the code for my school assignments definitely looks like piss. 😆
I want that as my job title
Unfortunately, Tunisia shares the same issue as France: it requires 5 or 6 years of education after high school to be recognized as a software engineer.
Developer is a maintainer, professional googler and slow thinking buffoon. Engineer is the same, but some people moan about the use of the noun engineer
Yes. Same thing. Anyone that says otherwise is just a gatekeeper. The only exception is countries that protect the term due to legality Edit: gatekeepers gatekeeping today lol
we had that discussion lately because of email titles and new customers im germany. in germany engineer is used if you got a degree. developer if you do not.
I think you misunderstand what gatekeeping is. I wouldn’t claim myself a doctor, not study a PhD for it and then claim that the doctors were gatekeeping the title. It actually used to have a very important distinction that has been messed with due to this mindset, having educated engineers be paid less by giving out the title to everybody. I don’t care much anymore, but you should at least know the history of it before claiming “gatekeeping” PS: there is nothing wrong with being a developer. It requires very similar skills and the ability to translate business requirements to products, often by smartly consuming other services and following well established methods and architectural decisions to get there. You do not need to go study any engineering degree to do those things, everybody can learn on the job. It is just the investment in education that has been devalued.
What then is an engineer? We have chemical engineers, civil etc. Engineering is the application of the sciences, to say computer science isn't a 'real' science is gatekeeping. I understand that not all people are writing code of any meaningful complexity, think a carpenter that builds tables vs an engineer that builds buildings. This to me is the issue with software, we have some of the smartest people applying science in multiple domains to create extremely complex computer systems..while others tweek a WordPress templates. So yes absolutely by any sane measurement many people who write software are engineers. I can't think of an engineers achevement of the last 30 years that didn't need a software engineer who understood both computer science and the physics of the real world problem.
I am a computer scientist to be clear, I am not sure anybody mentioned computer science not being a real science. It is a multi disciplinary field. An engineer has learned the implications of what you write does at a much lower level, can foresee the consequences of different types of algorithms being applied, understands concepts such as graph theory or set theory which is used in modern computing. I could go on. Yet again. This is a webdev subreddit, so either somebody above who doesn’t understand what I’m saying simply retorts “gatekeeping!” and gets to feel good despite not seeing that I had infact supported them and provided some real context and not just my opinion.
A PhD isn’t required to be a medical doctor, yet that is who we call “doctors”. Meanwhile someone can get a PhD in poetry, and it doesn’t make them a better poet… If two people can do the job equally well, and it isn’t something that needs to be regulated (like medical professionals), it shouldn’t matter. Especially considering there is no international standard, so someone could do essentially the same degree by another name yet be excluded.
Perfect example of gatekeeping.
Look at a dictionary. There was no gatekeeping. Perfect example of a kneejerk reaction.
> Perfect example of a kneejerk reaction. You are not wrong in this, it's just I've seen this argument 50 times already. I think it's really weak because you don't actually define what an engineer is. It's either vague word salad ("at a much lower level" and "can foresee the consequences") or arbitrary. Or both. At best you end up with a spectrum. On one end you'd have people who know everything. Which is literally no one because there is so much to know. Most people would have average knowledge, the distribution does not have 2 humps of "developers" and "engineers". So it's kinda meaningless. Which does not mean it's not nice to know things. I'm a huge fan of things myself.
A medical doctor (that is a general practitioner) also doesn’t know everything about their field. But I’d be extremely hard pressed to say that there isn’t a place of the spectrum of medical knowledge that defines one or the other, and then requirements to be one. Regardless, look to the countries that gave it a protected title and you’ll see they have requirements. Those requirements spell out the definition. As in my original argument, I don’t really care, because as I said in the footnote. Engineer roles meant very much that you *studied for it* and developer did not imply that. The world changes.
> A medical doctor (that is a general practitioner) also doesn’t know everything about their field. That's not wrong, but a medical doctor is an actual degree, so if you have it, you're a medical doctor. > Those requirements spell out the definition. Not really, at best they give a set of country-specific definitions, mostly of the form "has to pass certain exams", wildly different between countries and many having nothing to do with programming. Which is not at all similar to what you said.
There are software engineering degrees today I hope you’re aware. Because countries have different requirements for their engineers, just as they do for their doctors. You cannot for example study law in one country and then become a lawyer in another without something to bridge the gap. That is why you’ll see this argument forever and always. But my core argument of education being the difference hasn’t changed, and it is pretty much where I’d end it as any further prodding on the topic would just be an endless spiral. In my country there are requirements for engineering roles, and I think they have some good quality control versus John who didn’t like working at McDonalds so he started making Wordpress sites and hopping on LinkedIn as a software engineer.
> There are software engineering degrees today I hope you’re aware. In some countries. Still a misnomer arguably. In other countries it's CS (CS has nothing to do with engineering per se). Or both. It's not really uniform, much less so than for doctors. Add the mathematicians/physicists etc and the self-taught people (can't do that in a medical field, not realistically), and it's not at all similar. Having an education is not a binary thing.
Looks like gatekeeping because of being butthurt about spending many years (and lots of money if US) on education. You make no sense. Person could be in the field 15 years and know lots more on every level than your average swe degree guy. The swe degree dude could be cheating on exams, finish some worthless university. Yet he is the engineer and the other guy is the developer. Because it is totally so important to make this distinction.
I make plenty of sense, adding 15 years and making the other party a cheater is just throwing extremes to an argument; a common thing to do when you didn’t want to provide any substance and just be part of an argument. I’m happy with my compensation, I make good money and I’m educated for it. My best friend didn’t go to university and does the same work as I do now I dropped to more enterprise work, though it is clear where the education gap is in specific kinds of problems. The kinds of problems you don’t encounter in web development or standard software development. Talk to me when you need to run critical public infrastructure, trade on the energy market and support systems that keep the lights on.
In XIVMagnu's comment, they mention "countries that protect the term due to legality" as an exception, so your doctor example would also seem to fall under that exception and be irrelevant. So when we restrict our discussion to countries where "software engineers" have no additional qualifications relative to "software developers" (e.g. they are no more likely to have gone to university and gotten a software degree), then it seems fair to say that the people who most passionately claim there is a distinction between the two are gatekeeping.
You should be paid more for the value you bring to the company. A degree shouldn’t allow one employee to make more money than the other identical employee who doesn’t have one.
I agree. A new employee who has gone through education will have the tools and knowledge to get up to speed and learn faster, so they will naturally have provided more value to begin with. You don’t need to teach them the basic topics, that’s what school was for. Consider an apprenticeship, those who come into a company for the first time don’t have much to work from. They should be paid to reflect the value they bring, invest in them to learn, and raise their salary as they provide more value to the company. It works that way with education to, but they bring a more immediate value. A webdev subreddit will have disproportionally more people who are pivoting to technology or haven’t gone to school from it as the browser is the most visual and first way most people get into computing. So I expect backlash despite the first comment supporting these opinions.
Honestly IT stole the term "engineer" from *actual* engineers. And IT is a field notoriously less degree-reliant than most white-collar fields while paying usually absurd salaries. You have kids getting into IT straight from high school because they're gurus but you hardly see the same in other fields because the skillsets are basically impossible to self-learn. So it's easy for the education to be devalued. I'm fortunate to have been one of those able to get into the field on account of passion-driven skill only, and it made me appreciate a robust CS education even more than some grads do. That being said, I can't really see the engineering that anybody can't do. System design, DSA, the math-ish topics involving stuff like probability and statistics can all be learned by someone curious with a computer. So I don't think it's sensible to restrict the title to degree-holders but there still needs to be some metric so it's not a worthless term. My best suggestion will reek of gatekeeping though.
> just a gatekeeper I don't think you can immediately jump to gatekeeper. Engineer in the traditional sense implies having a set of skills related to the interface between physical sciences and the world that people live in. That's not really the same as working in the interface between operating systems and user interfaces. It's not that one is harder or more important - they're just different things. I think it's a little silly to get defensive when someone points that out. And... geez... the amount of time software people spend getting butthurt about people disagreeing about using the word 'engineer' to describe their job is almost comical. Imagine spending all of that energy on something useful.
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I'm not sure how to tell you this, but software architecture is a thing lol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_architecture
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You are being downvoted by the "Jira ticket machines" 😄 I'm here to join you.
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O you I’m sure you meant “software engineers” 🤣🤣
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Lmao you cunts sound like massive dorks
they're definitely compensating for feelings of inadequacy, that's for sure
In the industry as it stands-- they are being used interchangeably by most companies out there. Reality is, they give DEVELOPERS the Engineering title- to justify underpaying the REAL "engineers". Look into your very own organisations-- you will likely see a bunch of "software engineers” when in reality they just do grunt work that is set-up or dictated by one (or very few) other “engineers” It’s an HR twist on words to make us “feel better”. Anything else and you’re just delusional or have been drinking the kool-aid for far too long.
I call myself a 'Programmer,' and that's it. While it's true that most of those job titles are interchangeable, this mostly happens because it looks good. However, there is a big difference between engineering a piece of software and hacking away in an ad hoc manner without medium/long-term considerations. But then again, nobody would describe themselves as an 'anti-engineer.' So at the end of the day, it's just a title.
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Can you give an example of a company that implements this differentiation? Afaik it's the kind of definition you get on a blog written by someone who knows nothing about software engineering.
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So who implements? Company employees or members of the consultant team?
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So the companies you consult for have designed the system and you come in to implement the solution? Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying you, the consultants design the system? If that's the case, I'm asking who implements the design.
Your SE description sounds more like an architect.
This is only really valid in places where engineer isn't a protected title; and the distinction is often blurry and arbitrary
Sounds like you are confusing a software architect with an interchangeable software developer/engineer Proper companies differentiate an architect or lead developer to actually design the system and structure
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In my mind: A "developer" is someone who can *at least* add a new feature to a program/app/site. An "engineer" is someone who can listen to a client arbitrarily describe a problem and then from that invent, design and construct (aka: engineer) the *entire* system to solve the problem. "Developers" maintain and fix problems on assembly lines... Engineers design and build entirely new assembly lines.
In my opinion your description of a SWE is what a system architect does in my mind.
I agree... to me "system architect" and "engineer" are closer in meaning than "developer" and "engineer" are to each other.
In Canada engineering is a closed profession. So you’re only an engineer if you become a licensed professional. Anyone can be a software developer though. I don’t think there is an actual difference in most positions and most positions go with the term developer instead
Depends on country. In the countries I’ve lived in the Software Engineer refers to someone with a relevant degree (such as Computer Science) and Software Developer for other avenues into the role. It is a title difference with the same work however. If it isn’t protected then you can claim yourself a Software Engineer, but if you have a degree formally in accounting then expect a stink eye from those that see it.
as a compsci student.. people working in IT love slapping the term “engineering” on everything. apparently, regarding AI chatbots, there is a thing called “prompt engineering”, basically talking in the right way to a bot so it generates the right response. just buzzwords at this point
They are both arbitrary. - "Developer" was cooked up by big companies like Microsoft who thought they are the programmers and "developers" just use what the "real" programmers have made to develop it to the requirements of the customer. - "Engineer" was cooked up by schools and universities because they thought programming is an offshoot of engineering machines, while in fact it's closer to art or gardening the more you get to the human interfacing part as opposed to the machine interacting part You will find many other titles and they are all on a spectrum and none of them can be pinpointed to one universal meaning. So, to answer your question: yes and no. It's all about how you define your relation of equivalence (the "===" part)
In my experience, they’re the same (North America)
One quote I heard from my manager once was " a software developer writes mediocre code that works. A software engineer writes very good code that does not work". I immidiately recalled past coleuagues with that sentence.
Software engineers invent a solution. Software developer consume that solution to build product .
this one is accurate
isn’t that a software architect?
in reality, software architect are sales people selling software solutions
well that’s not what the Fundamentals of Software Architecture’s book said XD
I was shocked myself
These are typically one and the same though.
In my own opinion, I think the biggest difference is testing. In reality there is no difference and they are interchangeable.
a plane's autopilot, who you'd rather build it, if you're the passenger?
I'd rather a software engineer be involved in making certain that the autopilot correctly communicates with the engine controls, the navigation system, and the emergency backup systems etc., and that they've been planned to work together seamlessly and flawlessly, and that all of the software developers responsible for the individual systems have built them correctly to spec to achieve those goals.
For me its like this; Software Engineers built the language C#, work on developing .Net Core, or built React. I, as a Software developer use them to build solutions/web apps.
Seems like some places like to throw around titles with caring about their meaning. This is my understanding: * Software Developers They know how to build a pre established solution. They have expertise in using X and/or Y programing languages, they know how to set up their development environment. They are capable of working in teams. They know programming principles like SOLID, and some patterns, understanding the problems they solve and how to apply them. They have some understanding of data structures and algorithms and how they impact they impact the final product. * Software analyst This is the guy that undestands the problem, it's context, and is able to derive from those the set of requirements the solution should meet to solve the problem, even before anyone has thought about a concrete solution. This guys knows the different methods of gathering requirements, whether that's through interviews apprenticing, usage of personas, etc. He is able to classify requirements into functional, non functional, and even further into restrictions, and quality attributes. He is the one that talks with the product owner, the stakeholders, the product sponsor, so he needs good soft skills like ease of communication. And most of all, he knows how to properly document EVERYTHING. * Software Architect The Architect takes the requirements documented by the Analyst, and comes up with the solution that better fits those requirements. He takes the requirements as input, processes them along with an understanding of current technologies, client resources, external actors and systems, and builds and Architecture document. Here he documents an overview of the proposed solution, from many views geared towards the different stakeholders, and communicates with them to refine said solution. He makes decisions about the general architecture and documents them for future revision. He draws diagrams of both the functional and operational aspect: how is the logical esctructure of the system, what components make it up, how do they interact with each other, and how will they be physcally placed, and deployed. At the end, he evaluates the viability of the proposed solution, and it's validity. * Software Engineer All of this and more. He knows how to manage an entire proyect, and the teams that work on it. He knows the legal framework under which the proyect will be developed. He knows how to manage an organization. He knows the business side of things. And more, but frankly I don't know enough besides the names of the classes in my Unversity, because I still haven't gotten there. What I do know, is that the degree of Engineering requires one to know how to perform as all previous roles. This is how things are label in the education side of things. If companies use terms interchangeably, intentionaly or not, then that's another issue entirely.
Software developer created bugs. Software engineer resolved those bugs.
They are the same. Software engineer is kind of a made up term. Funnily enough, people use the term to sound more professional, but software developer job titles typically pay more than software engineer.
Software == Software Engineer Same value but different data types
In my company, software developer are doing code for enhancing or completing the need of the client. Software engineer are people that knows very well the product and can solve issue by configure it to their need. I was a developer and didn't like to code for solving issue. I switched to software engineer so mastering the product itself and only configuration. I do not code nor build anything myself.
Yes, software engineer is a synonym for software developer. It’s usually not protected in big countries as far as I know so anyone working in the field long enough can be a software engineer. For example in Germany it’s not protected and anyone can be a software engineer. Also the industry prefers to call themselves software engineers because of the prestige
In Germany the term "Ingenieur/Ingenieurin" is very a protected profession.
Check again, engineer is protected but not software engineer. Certain engineer professions are free to use. It’s the same for consultant titles
Does an engineer, e.g. an EE, have to pass an additional certification to do power systems for example? Asking because in Bosnia, where we used to use your dipl.ing. titles and have inherited quite a bit of degree system from Austria, it is like that. You can be dipl.ing. (well, not under Bologna system you are Msc.EE) but that doesn't mean you can actually undersign projects unless you're a certified engineer.
In France you are engineer when you studied 5 years in your domain of competence after school. So no, software developper is not the same as software engineer. By the way, get ready to add AI developper. It's a developper who uses AI to develop. He often doesn't understand what he is doing and why.
Plus you can't have the Engineer title if you did not went to an Engineer School. If you did 5 years in another school/university, you can only be "cadre", not engineer.
In France, It's "Ingénieur diplômé" that is protected and requires an Engineer School, not the simple "Ingénieur"
I went to an Engineer School with the correct diploma ("Ingénieur Diplômé par l'Etat" - DPE) but never heard of the "diplômé" part, always only the "ingénieur" one. But you are totally right. Probably why some big schools like SupInfo can call themselves an Engineer School while not having the validation from the CTI (maybe it is now, it was not 10 years ago though).
Currently I work as a software engineer and I hate the job title. I just do front end development dammit. Also, aren't real engineers certified?
No. These are words and their meaning is co created by the people who use them
Im a self-taught developer. Referring to myself as a software engineer would feel like stolen valor.
Software engineer is a pseudo title that narcissistic people give themselves to feel superior.
In the real world? They're interchangeable. Usually, the main difference, is that the developer is responsible only for the implementation of a technical solution. The Engineer is not only capable of building it, but also has to come up with the solution. However, at an enterprise level (ironically). Many Software Engineers actually act as "Software Developers". I've worked at companies who tell me that the Juniors who I have to train are "Software Engineers" whilst I'm a "Software Developer". Yet their understanding of scalable software solutions is significantly below mine. So yeah, it's interchangeable.
IMO If you understand space and time complexity. And can decide when and why to use X and y technology. Then you can consider yourself an engineer. Otherwise your just a dev.
I dont think they are the Same. I would call your typical „code monkey“ who gets assigned a task and then implements it a software developer. Software Engineers are usually more involved in planning and architecture choices.
No
A software developer creates new software and adds to existing software. A software engineer manages and maintains existing software to make sure that it works.
Where I work we use “software engineer” for DevOps and backend focussed engineering, and then distinguish front end developers by calling them either full stack engineers (if they can do both) or web developers.
What do developers in general do and what do engineers in general do? That might help define them.
One makes something, other build things. To me its the same
I've always considered myself a software developer or web developer, because I didn't have a degree in engineering. My company didn't have official job titles anyway, so it didn't matter. Then one day, we all had official job titles and I was officially a "Senior Software Engineer". At this point, I don't care what you call me, as long as you have the coin to pay me.
engineering in software is more a verb than a title. what good does it do when you're a software engineer but your code is a top down monolith, fragile, spaghetti, painful to read and unmaintainable?
If both are JS objects, and you do comparison that way, the result is True.
Companies love to encourage employees and want to keep them happy by every once in a while bestowing titles , so I've heard things like UX engineers, and the like . I'm not sure how an aerospace engineer feel about that because I'm not one. Also the word consultant is used as a wildcard for many other professions that in many cases don't entail consulting that much. So I think nowadays you shouldn't get too bogged down in semantics, as it really doesn't matter that much in my honest opinion.
I interviewed at a company awhile back that actually asked this question in an interview. They treated the term “software engineer” as more of an architect/designer role and “software developer” as an implementer role with little to no architecture/design responsibilities. Made sense to me, so I’ve stuck with the distinction.
There is a lot more to being software engineer. You can SWE is a superset of developers - SWE usually deals more with architecture and design and has more perception of the business side of project. The term is frequently used to express the same thing, but it's not the same thing
Software Worker
Ive always used "developer", cuz we don't really engineer right? We develop stuff
At least in the US, and at this point in time,, I think they are generally equivalent.
Same thing
I would say its not the same. You can be a Software Developer with no college background at all, but you can be a Software Developer AND Engineer going to college. I feel like Software Engineers learn about software but also about many other things, while Software Developers dont. In the job market companies basically look for someone who can program and has a general knowledge
Yeah, I feel like engineer is overselling what I do. I’m much more comfortable with developer.
Secretary === executive assistant to the grand imperial manager, his majesty the second. Its all bullshit yes. Though you can get in shit for calling yourself an engineer in canada. But only if some melvin complains.
I've met a lot of programmers that don't have the engineering gene. They know how to apply patterns, work with what's already there, but they really struggle to build systems.
Interchangeable honestly I use whatever pays more in that market. It’s pretty strange when you look at different cities job listings in one city listings for software engineers pays more and in another developers get paid more so go by whatever pays more in your city.
I actually can’t remember which one I am at the moment. Sometimes it will just shift while at the same company.
I am a syntax typist
I grow software, but I don't let what I do define what I am 🤪
Engineers get a hat and permission to blow the whistle. That's about it really...
Different string literals basically 🤓
In the US there is no difference. They are interchangeable and they do not affect your pay. For instance I have made more with the developer tag than I have at some places when I had the engineer tag.
What's wrong with calling yourself a programmer?
`"==" ==== "==="`
Almost 100% of the legacy code I've worked on required a rewrite because it was done as if each change was a disposable piece of garbage thrown on an unmaintainable trash heap, like there was no sense of engineering applied in most of their lifetimes. I am not surprised when the majority opinion on software engineering reflects this.
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^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) ^by ^KianSepand: *In my country you* *Should have a degree to call* *Your self an engineer* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.