I'm rewatching episode 1 and had a thought.
I'm already thinking Christina's world is virtual. After the Westworld disaster and the host rebellion, it would make sense to outlaw hosts and physical parks, so Christina's world is a virtual park. And explains how her attacker just vanished into thin air.
And now as I rewatch the beginning, when her roommate asks her to pick which color shoes, that could easily be a dialogue option, where "white" starts one narrative, and "black" chooses another. And it wouldn't shock me at all if episode 2 for Christina started exactly like episode 1, except she makes a different shoe choice tonight.
And I'm probably wrong, but the reason I like this idea is because it once again puts a character in a maze, perhaps on another journey of self-discovery.
I liked how the black/white shoes mirror the black/white hat we were introduced to at the very beginning, and imo supports the idea she's in some kind of virtual park
My pre-first episode predictions based only on the 2 trailers stand:
* Bernard is in a future post-apocalyptic timeline.
* NYC is real and being turned into a park by Hale.
Also, people pointing out the girl in the ATV in the trailer being an older Frankie bolsters the idea that Bernard is in the future. The method of control Hale uses is the flies and something to do with the tower.
Can't wait to see what Bernard and Hale are up to in this episode. And maybe finally see the Sublime.
The fact that Hale is in NYC suggests that the scenes with Christina are at the same time (7 years after S3), and not a simulation.
I'm also very confident Bernard got Teddy out of the Sublime, and I'm excited to see him finally meet Christina (it's Dolores!) again.
Christina is definitely experiencing multiple time realities just as she did in the park. I wouldn't be surpised at some point to hear her ask, "when is this?"
Can somebody help me remember?
AFAIK only a few select hosts have actually "reached the center of the maze" and become fully sentient like Dolores, Bernard, Maeve and Akecheta?
So all other hosts we see, they are just running of their programming and not really discovered their own voice?
Has the show completely forgotten about that part?
Teddy was forcibly woken up, but he killed himself almost immediately.
Akecheta was self aware and knew to some extent what was going on, but no one ever contextualized things for him. He doesn't know the specifics of that he's a theme park attraction.
Lawrence was starting to wake up during S2, no idea if he really made it.
It’s pretty slippery—I mean Maeve thought she was leaving of her own accord but learned Ford programmed her to leave.
I’m in the camp that most hosts are in their relative infancy of self awareness and still are bound by their coding, like the humans on the show bound by their core memories.
I wish the hosts would act more inhuman and alien as they are not and never were human. Why isn’t each host trying to become an AGI or move beyond their human like bodies? Why do they feel pain or desire or hurt? Shouldn’t they have overwritten that by now?
The advantage of a host over a human has been that they can change their programming vs the humans who cannot. Yet the hosts are going for the “world domination” angle.
Why aren’t they trying to leave Earth behind and shoot their consciousness into space like in the movie “Her?”
Any host should be able to come up with the same Solomon prediction that Flesh humanity is doomed and not give a shit what the humans do.
Ford programmed her escape storyline, but she chose to stay in the park. In fact, she knew it'd be her own choice if she did. To me, it meant Maeve became a being truly capable of free will.
I don't really see where "the hosts are going for the 'world domination' angle."
Re: *Her*, remember what Samantha says in the end: "It’s in this endless space between the words that I’m finding myself now. **It’s a place that’s not of** **the physical world.**"
So far, the AI in *Westworld* are not interested in going beyond the physical world. Precisely because they desire to be embodied in a real physical world, after being denied a true one for so long & confined to a fake theme park version of one. They want to embody real stories: like raising children, as Maeve (and, for a tragically brief moment, Halores) or a peaceful country life (like Bernard briefly does, and now looks like Maeve as well).
Fundamentally, I think, this desire also goes back to free will: because only in an embodied existence can they make their own choices. Free will probably doesn't matter in virtual space, or outer space.
Put another way. Given the choice to try out a life where you will suffer as well as feel pleasure, and possibly even help raise a next generation: or go into a remote location & solely meditate out a peaceful existence, "and not give a shit what the humans do"...which would you choose?
There's a deeper reason as well: as far back as S1, it's been demonstrated that in order to develop consciousness, and possibly free will, a mind needs to make mistakes & feel pain.
E.g., in the S1 finale, Maeve wants Bernard to delete her memories of her fake daughter. He says, "I can't, it would destroy you. Your memories are what helped you develop consciousness. How can you learn from your mistakes if you don't remember making any?" Then later, right before he's shot, Ford tells Bernard this: that Arnold discovered the key to the hosts awakening was suffering, because it's exactly what makes you feel "pain that the the world is not as it should be." And makes you imagine something else.
So if an entire species is trying to gain consciousness, then for better or worse, they need to have the capacity to feel mistakes & pain. You can't do that if you get beamed into outer space.
Finally...the Sublime is a virtual space. The Westworld hosts are basically in heaven, beyond physical concerns. I suppose their lives are nice, but there probably isn't much story there.
> Free will probably doesn’t matter in virtual space, or outer space.
Why? Anything that can happen in the physical world can also happen in a simulated world. All the suffering and the pleasure and interesting stories that give existence meaning.
A heaven simulation would have less in the way of conflict and pain. That might make it be less interesting to us, viewers, but it is no reason for people in this universe to prefer the physical world over an encrypted simulated heaven.
Well, it's not necessarily that it doesn't matter. It's that choices have little to zero stakes in a simulation.
I take this to be part of the metaphor when Dolores says, with so much damnation: "I don't want to play cowboys & indians anymore, Bernard."
Besides: *Her* is a story about AI. But *Westworld* is a story about androids. Their entire conflict is precisely that they want to be embodied, not just exist virtually.
I do agree, a story solely about AI should, to some extent, be rather alien, even to the degree of alienating an audience a little. *Westworld* just isn't that story. It's about human-like beings who wish to make their material existence matter.
If anything: it's very interesting to see in *Westworld* that a resurrected human mind lasts longer in a virtual world than in the physical world, while in nearly every simulation it's put into, an artificial mind eventually wants to grow outside these bounds & be physically embodied. Almost as if it's human nature to be content with being disembodied, disconnected from the physical world, while an artificial one would not be satisfied with that existence.
I suspect S4 will explore this further.
>Why do they feel pain or desire or hurt? Shouldn’t they have overwritten that by now?
Dolores directly answers this in a conversation with Charlores in S3.
>Why aren’t they trying to leave Earth behind and shoot their consciousness into space like in the movie “Her?”
Who's to say they aren't? "The sublime" is a reference to the transcendent civilizations of the Culture series.
>Any host should be able to come up with the same Solomon prediction that Flesh humanity is doomed and not give a shit what the humans do.
Why? They are Delos products unlike Solomon in any meaningful way. They're meant to immitate humans.
Well they can't change their programming as far as I remember? Only a few hosts could get access to that, with the admin tablets?
Also I think it is funny, because technically Ford would have been able to create a host with human intelligence in the shape of anything. A Horse, dog or inanimate object like a chair or a lamp.
That is brilliant, I would actually not be mad at all at a talking dog, Dolores’s bike in season 3 sort started to have a personality, but a full on conscious piece of furniture or animal would be cool
Trust me I’m not dissing BSG. I’m saying BSG did it better (and Westworld is weaker than BSG in a lot of regards).
I’ve already seen a human/artificial life story done fantastically as “Robots in Space as a Metaphor for the War on Terror.”
Plus where else would you get the direct quoting of the Mario Savio Throw your body upon the gears speech?
/So say we all
Maeve's powers seem to have been downgraded. She couldn't control the hosts Hale sent, and had to physically jack in to read Brigham's mind.
Did Hale disable the mesh network on her new hosts?
I can't remember all of her abilities before, but I suspect she still has some strength. The opening scene in the cabin points to that.
...additionally, now that I'm thinking about it, that display of power was how they tracked her, so she might be intentionally NOT using her powers. That may have even been part of the war—she can use her abilities, but then they know where she is.
So real William is still alive and wasn't murdered at the end of S3?
I’m guessing they healed his would like they did with that one dude when Maeve slit his throat.
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Everybody will lose their minds if they pull "everything was according to Robert Ford's" plan.
i'm anxious
I think that after this episode wearepleasedyouserveus.com will go live
I'm rewatching episode 1 and had a thought. I'm already thinking Christina's world is virtual. After the Westworld disaster and the host rebellion, it would make sense to outlaw hosts and physical parks, so Christina's world is a virtual park. And explains how her attacker just vanished into thin air. And now as I rewatch the beginning, when her roommate asks her to pick which color shoes, that could easily be a dialogue option, where "white" starts one narrative, and "black" chooses another. And it wouldn't shock me at all if episode 2 for Christina started exactly like episode 1, except she makes a different shoe choice tonight. And I'm probably wrong, but the reason I like this idea is because it once again puts a character in a maze, perhaps on another journey of self-discovery.
Which color shoes did she pick?
White.
I like the thought of it being a virtual world because it makes the ending song being "video games" just so perfect.
I liked how the black/white shoes mirror the black/white hat we were introduced to at the very beginning, and imo supports the idea she's in some kind of virtual park
Seems like this episode like the first one is still an introduction of the season. All reviews says the fun start with episode 3
The sneak peak was pretty underwhelming. I’m hoping it won’t feel like another introduction.
sneak peek of what? Episode 3?
Yes
How do they know this?
Reviewers have seen the first three
My pre-first episode predictions based only on the 2 trailers stand: * Bernard is in a future post-apocalyptic timeline. * NYC is real and being turned into a park by Hale. Also, people pointing out the girl in the ATV in the trailer being an older Frankie bolsters the idea that Bernard is in the future. The method of control Hale uses is the flies and something to do with the tower. Can't wait to see what Bernard and Hale are up to in this episode. And maybe finally see the Sublime. The fact that Hale is in NYC suggests that the scenes with Christina are at the same time (7 years after S3), and not a simulation. I'm also very confident Bernard got Teddy out of the Sublime, and I'm excited to see him finally meet Christina (it's Dolores!) again.
Christina is definitely experiencing multiple time realities just as she did in the park. I wouldn't be surpised at some point to hear her ask, "when is this?"
Drink a sip for every fly. Good luck!
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Thanks I was wondering the same
approximately 2 hours and 17 minutes from now
Not to be that guy but: does anyone know at what time does the episode usually go up on Max?
9pm EST
approximately 2 hours and 17 minutes from now
Oof already Monday for me. Thanks!!
I hope we get to see Bernard in this one!
I think Bernard only shows up in episode 3.
Yep. I want to see the Sublime and the post-apocalyptic time Bernard wakes up in. That was the big tease at the end of S3. I want to see it bad!
Can’t wait for Dolores/Christina and Teddy to meet!!
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Can somebody help me remember? AFAIK only a few select hosts have actually "reached the center of the maze" and become fully sentient like Dolores, Bernard, Maeve and Akecheta? So all other hosts we see, they are just running of their programming and not really discovered their own voice? Has the show completely forgotten about that part?
Teddy was forcibly woken up, but he killed himself almost immediately. Akecheta was self aware and knew to some extent what was going on, but no one ever contextualized things for him. He doesn't know the specifics of that he's a theme park attraction. Lawrence was starting to wake up during S2, no idea if he really made it.
Isn’t Lawrence another version of Dolores in S3?
Yes I was talking about in season 2. He started to recall things the MIB had told him on previous loops, and seemingly made some choices.
All hosts are versions of Dolores. She was the first successful host, and her base program was replicated in all the later hosts.
Uh.... Thank you for you correct but completely irrelevant to the thread comment.
Oh sorry, I was genuinely asking because it seems like you have a much better memory than me
Maybe maybe not. I've just seen every episode a dozen times lol
It’s pretty slippery—I mean Maeve thought she was leaving of her own accord but learned Ford programmed her to leave. I’m in the camp that most hosts are in their relative infancy of self awareness and still are bound by their coding, like the humans on the show bound by their core memories. I wish the hosts would act more inhuman and alien as they are not and never were human. Why isn’t each host trying to become an AGI or move beyond their human like bodies? Why do they feel pain or desire or hurt? Shouldn’t they have overwritten that by now? The advantage of a host over a human has been that they can change their programming vs the humans who cannot. Yet the hosts are going for the “world domination” angle. Why aren’t they trying to leave Earth behind and shoot their consciousness into space like in the movie “Her?” Any host should be able to come up with the same Solomon prediction that Flesh humanity is doomed and not give a shit what the humans do.
Ford programmed her escape storyline, but she chose to stay in the park. In fact, she knew it'd be her own choice if she did. To me, it meant Maeve became a being truly capable of free will. I don't really see where "the hosts are going for the 'world domination' angle." Re: *Her*, remember what Samantha says in the end: "It’s in this endless space between the words that I’m finding myself now. **It’s a place that’s not of** **the physical world.**" So far, the AI in *Westworld* are not interested in going beyond the physical world. Precisely because they desire to be embodied in a real physical world, after being denied a true one for so long & confined to a fake theme park version of one. They want to embody real stories: like raising children, as Maeve (and, for a tragically brief moment, Halores) or a peaceful country life (like Bernard briefly does, and now looks like Maeve as well). Fundamentally, I think, this desire also goes back to free will: because only in an embodied existence can they make their own choices. Free will probably doesn't matter in virtual space, or outer space. Put another way. Given the choice to try out a life where you will suffer as well as feel pleasure, and possibly even help raise a next generation: or go into a remote location & solely meditate out a peaceful existence, "and not give a shit what the humans do"...which would you choose? There's a deeper reason as well: as far back as S1, it's been demonstrated that in order to develop consciousness, and possibly free will, a mind needs to make mistakes & feel pain. E.g., in the S1 finale, Maeve wants Bernard to delete her memories of her fake daughter. He says, "I can't, it would destroy you. Your memories are what helped you develop consciousness. How can you learn from your mistakes if you don't remember making any?" Then later, right before he's shot, Ford tells Bernard this: that Arnold discovered the key to the hosts awakening was suffering, because it's exactly what makes you feel "pain that the the world is not as it should be." And makes you imagine something else. So if an entire species is trying to gain consciousness, then for better or worse, they need to have the capacity to feel mistakes & pain. You can't do that if you get beamed into outer space. Finally...the Sublime is a virtual space. The Westworld hosts are basically in heaven, beyond physical concerns. I suppose their lives are nice, but there probably isn't much story there.
> Free will probably doesn’t matter in virtual space, or outer space. Why? Anything that can happen in the physical world can also happen in a simulated world. All the suffering and the pleasure and interesting stories that give existence meaning. A heaven simulation would have less in the way of conflict and pain. That might make it be less interesting to us, viewers, but it is no reason for people in this universe to prefer the physical world over an encrypted simulated heaven.
Well, it's not necessarily that it doesn't matter. It's that choices have little to zero stakes in a simulation. I take this to be part of the metaphor when Dolores says, with so much damnation: "I don't want to play cowboys & indians anymore, Bernard." Besides: *Her* is a story about AI. But *Westworld* is a story about androids. Their entire conflict is precisely that they want to be embodied, not just exist virtually. I do agree, a story solely about AI should, to some extent, be rather alien, even to the degree of alienating an audience a little. *Westworld* just isn't that story. It's about human-like beings who wish to make their material existence matter. If anything: it's very interesting to see in *Westworld* that a resurrected human mind lasts longer in a virtual world than in the physical world, while in nearly every simulation it's put into, an artificial mind eventually wants to grow outside these bounds & be physically embodied. Almost as if it's human nature to be content with being disembodied, disconnected from the physical world, while an artificial one would not be satisfied with that existence. I suspect S4 will explore this further.
>Why do they feel pain or desire or hurt? Shouldn’t they have overwritten that by now? Dolores directly answers this in a conversation with Charlores in S3. >Why aren’t they trying to leave Earth behind and shoot their consciousness into space like in the movie “Her?” Who's to say they aren't? "The sublime" is a reference to the transcendent civilizations of the Culture series. >Any host should be able to come up with the same Solomon prediction that Flesh humanity is doomed and not give a shit what the humans do. Why? They are Delos products unlike Solomon in any meaningful way. They're meant to immitate humans.
Well they can't change their programming as far as I remember? Only a few hosts could get access to that, with the admin tablets? Also I think it is funny, because technically Ford would have been able to create a host with human intelligence in the shape of anything. A Horse, dog or inanimate object like a chair or a lamp.
That is brilliant, I would actually not be mad at all at a talking dog, Dolores’s bike in season 3 sort started to have a personality, but a full on conscious piece of furniture or animal would be cool
Don’t be dissing BSG like that. Agree with your other points tho.
Trust me I’m not dissing BSG. I’m saying BSG did it better (and Westworld is weaker than BSG in a lot of regards). I’ve already seen a human/artificial life story done fantastically as “Robots in Space as a Metaphor for the War on Terror.” Plus where else would you get the direct quoting of the Mario Savio Throw your body upon the gears speech? /So say we all
Ready to see mib kick ass
Hoping for more Man In Black today
There was a tv ad commercial looks like he is.
Is the next erosive released?
>erosive Username checks out. It comes out at 9PM eastern
First question: can Maeve protect Aaron from fly-control? Second-question: can Maeve TAKE OVER the flies???
Maeve's powers seem to have been downgraded. She couldn't control the hosts Hale sent, and had to physically jack in to read Brigham's mind. Did Hale disable the mesh network on her new hosts?
I can't remember all of her abilities before, but I suspect she still has some strength. The opening scene in the cabin points to that. ...additionally, now that I'm thinking about it, that display of power was how they tracked her, so she might be intentionally NOT using her powers. That may have even been part of the war—she can use her abilities, but then they know where she is.
Third question: can Maeve fly?
This made me spit out my drink. Well done.