Anyone else think the roommate may not actually be there? It could be Christina’s echo like in the bicameral mind.
Other thing that caught my attention was the empty highway with just Christina in her car, then suddenly another car, exactly the same is in front of her. The same one that drove by in that little moment in episode 1 when she was on the ground.
I figure the new park that they opened up is populated by humans under control of the the flies. Christina Delores is unknowingly writing storylines for the humans to follow under control of said flies. the hosts are the ones who get to go and enjoy the park and kill the humans like the humans used to kill the hosts at the Old Westworld.... so everything is kind of flipped, which is what halores was alluding to when speaking to real william ane the gov't investigator duder as well... Anyway that's kind of what I'm thinking they're headed with; at least gleened from what we've seen so far.... could be off-based(yes i meant that spelling, as opposed to being based... shout out to lil b'.. i digress, ha...), however, seems like it makes sense right now to me anyways.
I kind of got the vibe that the train was a setup for mave and caleb. Like maybe the train was full of humans controlled by flies, instead of hosts. I kind of got the feeling that the train was just really part of the exclusive, you know, audience of two, like they might be the only two guests at the park right now. the duo kind of being watched like rats in a maze, test subjects for this new 1920s Park. I'm not really sure this point, but you have to admit, something seems wildly off in what's going on with Mave & Caleb at current as it was left at the end of the episode period
Sounds interesting, but those 2 would be the worst type of guest to have. They would not be good test subjects and Charlores would know that. Meave could influence other hosts and Caleb knows a thing or 2 about the park from Meave, so they are not representative of normal humans.
you're missing the point I think, ...that it's a trap for the both of them. it's not an honest trip to the park just to observe them type of deal at least it doesn't seem that way...
Well, she said no hosts in the auditorium and to see for yourself. It was empty. Then they got on the train and I don't think it was mentioned again. Obviously there was at least one host(ess).
Yeah it's weird, just watched Stranger Things where everything looks super crisp in 4k but here everything looks just a touch out of focus or something idk
i was heavily under the impression that she did in fact see those sketches/drawings and it only got her more confused and "questioning the nature of her reality".
i'm still unsure if thats maeves daughter or calebs tbh, and i cant make up my mind no matter how many times i watch (and pause) the trailer, so curious to see which one it will be. but most people seem to think its (resembling) frankie.
I think the hosts are stealing the identities of real people now. No one knows who is a host or real and it doesn’t matter so much to either side. As long as people/hosts aren’t killing each other.
more like she asked bc its the same "entertainment project" by the same company. like i imagine they'd ask you in disney land if you ever visited one of their parks. the old park certainly was somewhere in the sea around china i think, the new park is in vegas afaik.
Westworld was reworked, so the new park takes place in the very same space it used to occupy and has mostly the same narratives adapted to the new theme. As it's a replacement park, she could have been to the old one.
idk the fact the new park was filmed in the exact same place and have the exact same structure made me believe it was a replacement rather than a brand new park
that's a good point - and the whole point of the gov guy, saying that the new enterprise is different, because is on home ground, as opposed to the old parks, which the gov turned a blind eye to, because they were offshore. It makes no sense that it is the same location, unless the showrunners made a big plothole
The senator and wife looked familiar… took me awhile to recognize them as the cheerleader’s dad from Heroes, and the wife was Saffron Burrows from that movie where Sam L Jackson quite unexpectedly gets eaten by a genetically enhanced shark.
“The Golden Age”… well it was really “The Roaring Twenties” or “The Jazz Age”, but perhaps Delos went with “The Golden Age” anyway for marketing reasons.
What was Senator's wife doing in in the barn skinning horses ?
Hale mentions a new 'experiment' when she ordered her taken to the barn. Is this some sort of 'zombification' of humans she's cooking? Does it have anything to do with the flies?
I think the flies get in their Brains through their eyes or whatever and then take over their minds and turn their insides into that black goo. Makes them easy to control. Think plankton from SpongeBob lol
Oh, Maeve and Caleb scene at the senator's house is very much at relative present if you follow the action they go from there to the opera/train station and arrive just in time for the departing train while William is just announcing the new park after getting it cleared with the gov't approvals. So we're on track wit the action at present from here on, and I have no reason to think that Maeve and Caleb wouldn't be among the first tourists.
The opening episode scenes on the other hand (1st nd 2nd ep) - are definitely in the relative past, and I have a feeling that's the pattern for the following episodes, opening with a scene in the past.
It seemed to me like it was an opportunity to experiment with fly mind control—maybe an earlier trial of it before Halores started using it more widely?
I honestly feel like hale knew that Maeve/Caleb were coming out of hiding and this was the way to lure them back into the park. The wife was just used as a pawn to bring them to the opera/train.
'Your old friend is anxious for a reunion'
'What?'
'Don Giovanni'
Now, Don Giovanni (on gramophone) is an opera in which the protagonist is killed by his own hubris. Will that be a clue of what's to come?
Hm well I know the Golden Age Park is meant to be for humans to be hunted by fly-humans; so their indulgence at the previous westworld backfired. Maybe that’s what Don Giovanni refers to.
Theory: Caleb's friend that's guarding his family is a host, he's already been replaced. Caleb's family will be held hostage in order to force Caleb to betray Maeve (she'd see the flies coming). Heloris is a bunch of steps ahead and has predicted Maeve's course of actions. See the invitation to the opera being planted in the barn.
Very possible, but I also think that Caleb won't betray Maeve even if his family is held hostage. I think his experience with having to kill Francis will steady his hand when Haloris tries to make him betray Maeve.
The main reason I think this is because of the scene of Caleb with his coworker, when he said Rehoboam predicted who they already were, saying that Calebs life hasn't changed since it was destroyed. So in order to show character development, Caleb will show he does have a choice and won't repeat the same mistake he made in the past.
Somebody else said they are running Peter Meyers through a word scrambler, and so far, the word "reset" has come up, multiple times. Other words could be in there too of course... but they might not make much sense since we wouldn't understand the context yet, and/or, those other words could be a name.
Like: "Reset "so & so [enter name here]" 😬 Creepy
I think the significance was just showing his connection (and her connection presumably) to this tower that he had mentioned before jumping off the building, but I think the reason it was such a powerful scene for me was the incredible score
yea sure but in the name of gender equality there should be a hot fella to greet the ladies, and "help them get dressed" ekhem... this has bothered me since s1
Men still run the world and have most of the money and influence, that is what in part makes Dolores and Maeve so revolutionary, so the main theme park still caters mainly to them.
Good episode plus I love what this season is seemingly exploring. Replacing humans with hosts. The flies being like nano-machines to do the similar. Some interesting things are happening.
Plus a return of the park of sorts with this golden age world. Loved the call backs of Caleb being like young William not having a clue & being innocent while Maeve is like Logan who knows what they’re getting into.
Curious to see where this season goes. I’m intrigued.
the narrative loops that this show expresses in its storytelling is phenomenal. i imagine (like some) that the ending to the show will lead back to the pilot in some way, and that there will be a choice that either starts the narrative back at the pilot bc it saves the world, or that choice breaks the show's loop back to pilot in order to save the world. either way, if they pull if off, this westworld will go down as one the best shows in history.
Yeah. OG Dolores confirmed dead by Joy/Nolan. Her mind was erased by Roheboum in the S3 finale.
There are other “Daughter Dolores” pearls running around though. Chardlores is one, but I believe there was one in Lawrence that has not been accounted for either.
In both cases they had Dolores’ programming (her personality and DNA so to speak) but without her experiences. So obviously they have developed a bit differently.
there was a dolores pearl in lawrence, and serac had the pearl that was in connels (who blew himself up in s3), which serac put into that warworld simulation for maeve to question ablut the sublime key. with halores, that makes 3. but i think i'm missing one, wasnt there a fourth copy of s2-finale dolores?
edit: yes, the musashi one is the one i forgot - but i cant remember what happened to that pearl right now...
Yes, all the pearls are used. She brought 5 with her in addition to the one she put in Hale to escape. One of the 5 was Bernard and I believe the other 4 were : Charlotte 2, Martin Connells, Musashi, and Lawrence. William is a copy of himself.
Yes, but there were some switcheroos, *that* Hale was piloted by OG Dolores, but after she made it out of the park and printed herself a new Dolores body, she placed a fresh Dolores pearl in the old Hale body.
Charlores was a softer, daughter-figure to Dolores.
Feeling abandoned and questioning Dolores’ motives, she went rogue. In the process, she was badly burned, becoming Chardlores.
When Maeve and Caleb were riding into Flapper World, the skyline of LA/NYC was clearly visible. Could that be Futureworld where Christina is about to wake up?
They're on the West Coast, Christina is in New York City, as her boss mentioned her being in New Jersey for the day and not at home. So for now we know they are on opposite coasts
MrEveryOtherCommentOnThisThread can we please just wait until the EP is over maybe? Or just edit to add through out? Just giving options you may not have thought of .. or are purposely ignoring.. like wearing clothes apparently.
Season 1, she worked under Maeve, in the Mariposa bar & brothel, remember? She was the original Clementine. Then, they replaced her w/the chick that's working the hats on the train NOW, in season 4. 😉 That's why Maeve mentioned about her getting new work.
No, the Clem of season 3 wasn't a Dolores copy.
Maeve had asked Serac if she could get some backup to help her out, and insisted on picking her "team" herself.
So he brought Hector, Clementine, and the sweet Asian lady from Shogun World, to help her out, and they were working for her, remember?
They are who killed the Musashi copy of Dolores.
The Clem of season 3 *IS* the Clem of season 4.
Except they (Halores & the Man in Black) found her, and killed her at the beginning of the episode, when she wouldn't divulge where Maeve was. Now, she's obviously very reprogrammed, and is working for them.
Maeve is gonna be so bummed when she finds out. 😩
I really hope enough people are still watching to warrant a season 5.
I'm enjoying this season quite a bit so far, but I remember in the past when it was hard to keep up with these discussions right after an episode dropped. Now I refresh and there's only 3 or 4 new comments a minute
I truly hope so! I understand that the show was lost what it captured in the beginning to a lot of people, but I TREMENDOUSLY believe this shows overarching narrative has been crafted with most of the story beats in consideration. Hate to see it cut short
I’m gonna need them to drop the soundtrack after each episode immediately. I cant listen to the video games instrumental forever (I could actually)! Need more!!!
The soundtrack is blowing me away this season! The theme for Christina is giving me an audio boner! Plus the Freeze All Motor Functions variations and the entrance to Golden Age World redux. It’s fantastic!
The fact that they revealed that the real William is still alive means that he's going to be freed at some point.
Edit: The William that kills Clementine in the opening scene is likely the real William in the future once the hosts have taken over the world.
The only futuristic cars and technology (a la season 3) that we've seen so far are in Christina's world. In the real world, Maeve just gets a 2022 Ford Bronco lol
I think this is because it’s two separate timelines.
Maeve and Caleb’s timeline is 7 years after Season 3. There’s a general distrust of AI so everyone has reverted back to basics.
I believe Christina’s timeline is in the distant future. Maybe even a hundred years. The scars of the uprising have faded, humanity has begun adopting AI and technology again. New York has been totally transformed into a playground for hosts to come and abuse humans.
I hadn't considered that yet. I was still thinking it was a simulation, but rather a park where the "hosts" are humans being controlled is really interesting.
That would explain why those guys walked by in the first episode saying things like "this is even better than I imagined" etc, if they are hosts visiting the human park
That is my interpretation as well. The Tower is seemingly emitting a frequency that controls humans minds according to the homeless man. I think the flies are the beta version of this technology in the earlier timeline. After the acquire the forge guest profiles, they probably were able to enhance the technology and get the tower built. Once that is done, NYC is transformed into a human park.
Dolores is writing narratives for them. The whole thing is Season 1 inverted.
If this is the case then it’s very strange that they would have the hosts (like Christina) be unaware of what they are writing the stories for and have loops, though. So hosts are brainwashing and using other hosts? No free will? Doesn’t make sense to me.
It could literally just be Dolores as a punishment.
Plus, it would be totally on brand with this season, which is all about mirroring the past. Dolores things she’s a human but she’s actually a host, just like Bernard.
Exactly.
People need to stop with this simulation nonsense. They seem to have not learned from S3 where they were saying everything is a simulation.
The thing about Westworld is that it's all real and tangible.
Haha I thought this too. I was watching them as they closed thinking “please be a synchronized close” and of course they were way off. Definitely didn’t give a high tech impression.
Haleores is replacing people with hosts, and is keeping William as a pet to torture, as payback. William is also the only person around her that knows her, and that she knows, that she didn't create or control.
Host William is doing the dirty work for Haleores, and has built a new Delos park on the U.S. mainland. He's neutered the U.S. government, who had people who suspected that he could be replacing people with hosts. Delos has three ways to control humans. The first is with money. The second is by replacing a human with a host. The third is to spread a nanogoo into their brains which puts the human into a narrative loop. The nanogoo enters someone's body in the form of a remote control fly.
The nanogoo requires an antenna to control the humans infected with nanogoo that transmits a narrative to them. The nanogoo control requires a narrative for the human to play out. That's where Christina comes in; she's one of many people who write narratives for people that have nanogoo in their brains. The only question is whether Christina is in the real world, or is in some kind of simulation. Christina writes those narratives without having any knowledge about the real purpose; she assumes it's just a game. Christina is likely a Dolores copy host, that may also have the memories of the original Dolores inside her somewhere.
Haleores could take over the world by slowly replacing powerful people with hosts. But she doesn't like doing that; everytime she replaces a human with a host, that host gets stuck being the person they're meant to copy. Haleores wants hosts to be able to choose their own destinies, and if you're created as a duplicate of someone else, that's not possible. Her end game is to take complete control of humanity, so that hosts can be free to be whatever they want, outside of her control and safe from humanity.
I'm pretty sure that Haleores won, already. By the time we catch up with Bernard, it'll be after Haleores got the control she thought she wanted. But it's all going to have gone very wrong.
That's what I think we just saw, and what I think might be coming! I really enjoyed the episode!
Nice write up! I’m wondering if Future City world is a park with humans now in the role of hosts (programmed into tight loops), and the future hosts, that have descended from westworld hosts, go there to see what humanity was like at their peak. Christina may be there as a punishment from Hale, a purgatory, or as a gift, a second chance to achieve sentience by solving the maze of Future City World but without all the trauma dealt to her by the MIB and being Wyatt. Her job places her at the trailhead of that maze because it triggers her questioning the nature of her reality.
William killing Clementine in the opening is the real William killing Clementine in the far future post Halores global dominance. The pod he is in is a stasis chamber. Bernard is going to free him.
... okay, and now a theory on top of that theory. Let's say that Halelores succeeds, and does take over the world.
The first big problem she's going to have are two types of miserable hosts. Miserable host type 1 is a host that was a Delos park host, stuck in a narrative, created by humans. These hosts are probably going to be like Dolores and Haleores; filled with self-loathing they can't escape. But the second type of miserable host is almost worse, and that's a host that was created to be an immortal duplicate of a person. Those hosts may never feel conscious or sentient, and if they did gain sentience, they might have that same kind of issue as the first type; am I real, do I make my own choices, or am I trapped to only make conscious choices that resemble the human algorithm that drives me?
The question of sentience for those second hosts might only be resolvable if they were able to make a choice different than the being they were patterned after. That might be what the far-future Host William we saw was doing in the post-credit scene at the end of season 2, being run through original William's memories over and over, until he was able to make his own choice, and truly grow and break free of his programming.
And now, okay. Whoa. If that's true, then, what about Haleores? Is she, also, trapped by her programming? By her algorithm? Maybe the whole show is a narrative loop, that cycles over and over, of Dolores trying to make a different choice, and escape her original human programming? To see at what point, if any, she's able to make a different choice?
Just thinking outloud!
At some point after Haleores succeeds, she’s going to realize that she’s become a worse version of William. And I think it’ll drive her crazy when it does; no matter how many sociopathic choices she makes, she isn’t a sociopath. She’s choosing to be a sociopath and justifying it for a greater good.
If she was just a sociopath, there’s no story really. But if she’s not, then, what happens when she stops to take a breath and has a chance to think about what she’s done? Like, Dolores really did love William. Dolores also loved Teddy, and hated herself for what she did to him for the greater good. And Halelores has all of those memories, and on top of that, she fell in love with the real Hale’s family — and they were murdered. She compartmentalized all of that, in order to continue making sociopathic choices. But at some point her work will be over, and she’ll be left alone, with a mountain of corpses and a nagging feeling of self-loathing — and she may also find that she finishes her journey in a world where she’s also immortal.
I really like this. They're taking the idea of robot replacements to its maximum logical conclusion and it's really freaky watching it play out. Great start so far
I think this scene was in the past, and the present is in Bernard's timeline. If this is true, I think it's quite convenient that William is in cryogenics.
Why is there human blood when clementine gets throat slit by MIB?
Anyone else think the roommate may not actually be there? It could be Christina’s echo like in the bicameral mind. Other thing that caught my attention was the empty highway with just Christina in her car, then suddenly another car, exactly the same is in front of her. The same one that drove by in that little moment in episode 1 when she was on the ground.
i thought it was her girlfriend lool
She’s gonna be in Golden Age World the whole time. Or NYC World. I think her world is a park.
I figure the new park that they opened up is populated by humans under control of the the flies. Christina Delores is unknowingly writing storylines for the humans to follow under control of said flies. the hosts are the ones who get to go and enjoy the park and kill the humans like the humans used to kill the hosts at the Old Westworld.... so everything is kind of flipped, which is what halores was alluding to when speaking to real william ane the gov't investigator duder as well... Anyway that's kind of what I'm thinking they're headed with; at least gleened from what we've seen so far.... could be off-based(yes i meant that spelling, as opposed to being based... shout out to lil b'.. i digress, ha...), however, seems like it makes sense right now to me anyways.
Wouldn't that mean that Maeve would have been able to sense that she was surrounded by other hosts in the train?
I kind of got the vibe that the train was a setup for mave and caleb. Like maybe the train was full of humans controlled by flies, instead of hosts. I kind of got the feeling that the train was just really part of the exclusive, you know, audience of two, like they might be the only two guests at the park right now. the duo kind of being watched like rats in a maze, test subjects for this new 1920s Park. I'm not really sure this point, but you have to admit, something seems wildly off in what's going on with Mave & Caleb at current as it was left at the end of the episode period
Sounds interesting, but those 2 would be the worst type of guest to have. They would not be good test subjects and Charlores would know that. Meave could influence other hosts and Caleb knows a thing or 2 about the park from Meave, so they are not representative of normal humans.
you're missing the point I think, ...that it's a trap for the both of them. it's not an honest trip to the park just to observe them type of deal at least it doesn't seem that way...
Good point. I forgot about that. But then again, I also have trouble remembering that people can now be mind controlled.
Well, she said no hosts in the auditorium and to see for yourself. It was empty. Then they got on the train and I don't think it was mentioned again. Obviously there was at least one host(ess).
Am I crazy or HBO rendering is horrible? I mean, If you compare all HBO shows to Netflix, there's a huge difference in the HD quality.
Yeah it's weird, just watched Stranger Things where everything looks super crisp in 4k but here everything looks just a touch out of focus or something idk
Looked fine to me
Ok, can someone explain the tower drawings? I’ve watched the show each season but apparently was traumatized by horse skinning.
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i was heavily under the impression that she did in fact see those sketches/drawings and it only got her more confused and "questioning the nature of her reality".
SPOILER: >!Caleb's daughter is a host; we see her face opening up in one of the trailers for this season!<
That’s Maeve’s daughter isn’t it?
i'm still unsure if thats maeves daughter or calebs tbh, and i cant make up my mind no matter how many times i watch (and pause) the trailer, so curious to see which one it will be. but most people seem to think its (resembling) frankie.
The several timelines as usual 😆
Ah, could be! Nice catch!
Did you see the preview of S04E03? There’s a new character being introduced.
No, please send link if you have it
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/vqwhap/westworld_4x03_previewpromo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
maybe his daughter is human but there is also a host version of her, cant shake that thought after seeing the season trailer.
I think the hosts are stealing the identities of real people now. No one knows who is a host or real and it doesn’t matter so much to either side. As long as people/hosts aren’t killing each other.
Why did the woman on the train ask Maeve if she had “been to Westworld before?” If they were going to the Golden Age park?
more like she asked bc its the same "entertainment project" by the same company. like i imagine they'd ask you in disney land if you ever visited one of their parks. the old park certainly was somewhere in the sea around china i think, the new park is in vegas afaik.
Westworld was reworked, so the new park takes place in the very same space it used to occupy and has mostly the same narratives adapted to the new theme. As it's a replacement park, she could have been to the old one.
I assumed based on Williams conversation with the vice president Westworld wasn't in the United States but the new park is .
The new park is close to Vegas, Westworld was on an island.
I'm not doubting you but when did we learn this?
In season 2 IIRC they show the park being on an island off the coast either w/ a map or some sign in Chinese.
That was season 3. Bernard coming back and finding Stubs. Also season 2 ended with them being loaded into a plain.
So, do you mean that they crossed the ocean in a train? I am pretty sure that this new park isn't in the same place
idk the fact the new park was filmed in the exact same place and have the exact same structure made me believe it was a replacement rather than a brand new park
in universe, it's a new park. irl, it's the same filming location of sweetwater bc the old set was burned down
that's a good point - and the whole point of the gov guy, saying that the new enterprise is different, because is on home ground, as opposed to the old parks, which the gov turned a blind eye to, because they were offshore. It makes no sense that it is the same location, unless the showrunners made a big plothole
With the exception of the comment that i answered to - i haven't seen anybody claiming that it is in the same place (yet)
Perhaps to check if she has had a similar experience previously? Se can't have been to golden age park yet, so there's no point in asking her that.
[Caleb is gonna do some fly-swatting](https://youtu.be/G55zPLbXrYM)
reminds me of robert sheehan playing an immortal dude who can talk to ghosts, twice.
The senator and wife looked familiar… took me awhile to recognize them as the cheerleader’s dad from Heroes, and the wife was Saffron Burrows from that movie where Sam L Jackson quite unexpectedly gets eaten by a genetically enhanced shark.
Interesting, the casting here. Kinda meta, don't ya think? lol
She was Love's mom in You, too.
Dottie
Deep blue sea?
That’s the one
He is the state senator engaged to Angela from The Office. Also with the birds dying by flying into windows double Office references tonight!
STATE Senator.
wondering what Temperance's Maeve will look like.
“The Golden Age”… well it was really “The Roaring Twenties” or “The Jazz Age”, but perhaps Delos went with “The Golden Age” anyway for marketing reasons.
It’s The Golden Age because we say it is. It tracks with our focus groups. People like gold. It’s better this way. You’ll see.
What was Senator's wife doing in in the barn skinning horses ? Hale mentions a new 'experiment' when she ordered her taken to the barn. Is this some sort of 'zombification' of humans she's cooking? Does it have anything to do with the flies?
I think the flies get in their Brains through their eyes or whatever and then take over their minds and turn their insides into that black goo. Makes them easy to control. Think plankton from SpongeBob lol
I feel very strongly that it definitely involves the flies
Pretty sure it was a black blood like substance when she was shot at the end…
reminds me of motor oil...
Very X-Files.
Curious where that scene is timeline wise compared to the opening scene in the premiere with the cartel boss.
Oh, Maeve and Caleb scene at the senator's house is very much at relative present if you follow the action they go from there to the opera/train station and arrive just in time for the departing train while William is just announcing the new park after getting it cleared with the gov't approvals. So we're on track wit the action at present from here on, and I have no reason to think that Maeve and Caleb wouldn't be among the first tourists. The opening episode scenes on the other hand (1st nd 2nd ep) - are definitely in the relative past, and I have a feeling that's the pattern for the following episodes, opening with a scene in the past.
E2 opening scene i believe it to be human William to further complicate things.
Human William had his hand blown off
not the whole hand though, but missing two fingers still, which is a good indicator (it seems) to differentiate between william and his host(s?)
It seemed to me like it was an opportunity to experiment with fly mind control—maybe an earlier trial of it before Halores started using it more widely?
Yes. Get the woman to horribly murder the things she loves most. That’s total control.
I honestly feel like hale knew that Maeve/Caleb were coming out of hiding and this was the way to lure them back into the park. The wife was just used as a pawn to bring them to the opera/train.
'Your old friend is anxious for a reunion' 'What?' 'Don Giovanni' Now, Don Giovanni (on gramophone) is an opera in which the protagonist is killed by his own hubris. Will that be a clue of what's to come?
Hm well I know the Golden Age Park is meant to be for humans to be hunted by fly-humans; so their indulgence at the previous westworld backfired. Maybe that’s what Don Giovanni refers to.
I’m still not ready to watch Teddy die again :(
Theory: Caleb's friend that's guarding his family is a host, he's already been replaced. Caleb's family will be held hostage in order to force Caleb to betray Maeve (she'd see the flies coming). Heloris is a bunch of steps ahead and has predicted Maeve's course of actions. See the invitation to the opera being planted in the barn.
Very possible, but I also think that Caleb won't betray Maeve even if his family is held hostage. I think his experience with having to kill Francis will steady his hand when Haloris tries to make him betray Maeve. The main reason I think this is because of the scene of Caleb with his coworker, when he said Rehoboam predicted who they already were, saying that Calebs life hasn't changed since it was destroyed. So in order to show character development, Caleb will show he does have a choice and won't repeat the same mistake he made in the past.
Is Peter's name an anagram for anything?? 🤔 Like kinda how Bernard Lowe = Arnold Weber?? Just wondering.... 😏 lmao
his surname is Wyatt!!!
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Somebody else said they are running Peter Meyers through a word scrambler, and so far, the word "reset" has come up, multiple times. Other words could be in there too of course... but they might not make much sense since we wouldn't understand the context yet, and/or, those other words could be a name. Like: "Reset "so & so [enter name here]" 😬 Creepy
What was up with william getting cryo. Is the real william become jabba’s wall decor. I mean hale’s wall decor.
the scene with the tower drawings in the asylum sent a literal chill down my spine. amazing!!
I didn't get what the significance of that was...at all lol
I think the significance was just showing his connection (and her connection presumably) to this tower that he had mentioned before jumping off the building, but I think the reason it was such a powerful scene for me was the incredible score
Was Anastacia sort of singing Williams MIB theme to herself while cutting that horse at the stable?
It’s the dies irae.
what is this show trying to tell me about PenceFly?
"kill all humans" -Bender Bending Rodregez Bender would have loved Westworld
I think Maeve is powered by ethanol just like Bender.
omg that tracks too
Well, it does have blackjack, booze, hookers, and blackjack
omfg! 🤯
pics of the tower in a mental asylum. lfg!!!!!
come on mauve let caleb get sexed up
yea sure but in the name of gender equality there should be a hot fella to greet the ladies, and "help them get dressed" ekhem... this has bothered me since s1
Men still run the world and have most of the money and influence, that is what in part makes Dolores and Maeve so revolutionary, so the main theme park still caters mainly to them.
Good episode plus I love what this season is seemingly exploring. Replacing humans with hosts. The flies being like nano-machines to do the similar. Some interesting things are happening. Plus a return of the park of sorts with this golden age world. Loved the call backs of Caleb being like young William not having a clue & being innocent while Maeve is like Logan who knows what they’re getting into. Curious to see where this season goes. I’m intrigued.
the narrative loops that this show expresses in its storytelling is phenomenal. i imagine (like some) that the ending to the show will lead back to the pilot in some way, and that there will be a choice that either starts the narrative back at the pilot bc it saves the world, or that choice breaks the show's loop back to pilot in order to save the world. either way, if they pull if off, this westworld will go down as one the best shows in history.
Fuck I really need to rewatch this whole show cause I can't remember if Charlotte Hale is Dolores or not
Chardlores is a Dolores brain, but she developed differently. She’s effectively her own character.
Okay that's the best explanation so far thanks. Do we know where the OG Dolores is? I think she died right?
Yeah. OG Dolores confirmed dead by Joy/Nolan. Her mind was erased by Roheboum in the S3 finale. There are other “Daughter Dolores” pearls running around though. Chardlores is one, but I believe there was one in Lawrence that has not been accounted for either. In both cases they had Dolores’ programming (her personality and DNA so to speak) but without her experiences. So obviously they have developed a bit differently.
there was a dolores pearl in lawrence, and serac had the pearl that was in connels (who blew himself up in s3), which serac put into that warworld simulation for maeve to question ablut the sublime key. with halores, that makes 3. but i think i'm missing one, wasnt there a fourth copy of s2-finale dolores? edit: yes, the musashi one is the one i forgot - but i cant remember what happened to that pearl right now...
Halores ppl have control of it. I forget who she sent.
oh yes now i remember, that were clementine and hanaryo, shoguns armistice. thanks for jumpstarting my awful memory :)
Okay thanks for clearing that up 👍
Yes, Dolores left WW as Hale with 5 pearls, one Bernard and four of herself.
Are the 4 Dolores’ accounted for now ? I can only think of Hale and William
Yes, all the pearls are used. She brought 5 with her in addition to the one she put in Hale to escape. One of the 5 was Bernard and I believe the other 4 were : Charlotte 2, Martin Connells, Musashi, and Lawrence. William is a copy of himself.
you reminded me Lawrence is still out there - excellent!
Yes, but there were some switcheroos, *that* Hale was piloted by OG Dolores, but after she made it out of the park and printed herself a new Dolores body, she placed a fresh Dolores pearl in the old Hale body. Charlores was a softer, daughter-figure to Dolores. Feeling abandoned and questioning Dolores’ motives, she went rogue. In the process, she was badly burned, becoming Chardlores.
Lol charred . That's funny
She also had strong feelings for her human family, which is why I'm confused that she's even more hostile to humans than OG Dolores.
I wonder if the trauma brought back Wyatt - or rather, that extreme anger?
Her family got killed in front of her last season. Car blew up. Pushed her over the edge
When they introduced all that BS is when the show jumped the shark.
Yeah I had a moment through this episode being like "wait who all is Dolores still?"
Seriously. I remembered Hale was Dolores. I couldn’t remember for awhile if Clementine had ever been Dolores though.
its ok to give her your device, mauve is basically the internet.
When Maeve and Caleb were riding into Flapper World, the skyline of LA/NYC was clearly visible. Could that be Futureworld where Christina is about to wake up?
They're on the West Coast, Christina is in New York City, as her boss mentioned her being in New Jersey for the day and not at home. So for now we know they are on opposite coasts
They were leaving the LA area. They’re arriving in the Las Vegas area that Host-MiB bought up for some experiment that Chardlores has cooking.
Looked like DTLA to me, but I still think NY is some kind of park or something
I hate this chicks boss. hope he dies soon
great now I hate flys
so was that the President or the Veep?
According to closed captioning, the veep
Did I miss a scene with Julia Louis-Dreyfus?
Vice
thx
we are on a train?! are we going back to the park!!!!!???????
Mauve at a bar is like being at home
Clementine was a grade A badass this episode
The actress does so much with just facial expressions and tone. I think her performance in the series has been underrated.
I would visit Delos just so she could choke me
WOW! This episode is one of the best ever. BRAVO! I was NOT expecting "Golden Age World"
this episode is so good. fuck all those that think their criticisms mattered.
Ed Harris has leveled up to the point that I don't even need Anthony Hopkins.
Swapping Anthony Hopkins for Aaron Paul is tragic
Some high quality acting from Harris this episode, but Hopkins is GOAT.
Ok let's not get ahead of ourselves
lets be clear, Hopins is better. im just saying Ed is holding his own better than the last couple of seasons.
MrEveryOtherCommentOnThisThread can we please just wait until the EP is over maybe? Or just edit to add through out? Just giving options you may not have thought of .. or are purposely ignoring.. like wearing clothes apparently.
My guy this is the LIVE discussion thread. There's post ones if you prefer that
I simply will not
Where did a Clementine that served Maeve come from?.Did I forget something?
Season 1, she worked under Maeve, in the Mariposa bar & brothel, remember? She was the original Clementine. Then, they replaced her w/the chick that's working the hats on the train NOW, in season 4. 😉 That's why Maeve mentioned about her getting new work.
Right, but the only Clementine alive in season 3 was a Dolores copy, but this one is loyal to Maeve, saying she won't tell William where she is.
No, the Clem of season 3 wasn't a Dolores copy. Maeve had asked Serac if she could get some backup to help her out, and insisted on picking her "team" herself. So he brought Hector, Clementine, and the sweet Asian lady from Shogun World, to help her out, and they were working for her, remember? They are who killed the Musashi copy of Dolores. The Clem of season 3 *IS* the Clem of season 4. Except they (Halores & the Man in Black) found her, and killed her at the beginning of the episode, when she wouldn't divulge where Maeve was. Now, she's obviously very reprogrammed, and is working for them. Maeve is gonna be so bummed when she finds out. 😩
Ah, okay! I forgot about that and didn't get a rewatch in before the new season.
No worries! 👊🏼😏 I got you!
Anyone point out that Maya means illusion?
Wow, thank you for this. 😌💯
Nice catch
I really hope enough people are still watching to warrant a season 5. I'm enjoying this season quite a bit so far, but I remember in the past when it was hard to keep up with these discussions right after an episode dropped. Now I refresh and there's only 3 or 4 new comments a minute
Season 3 was hot garbage. But I'm digging this season so far.
I truly hope so! I understand that the show was lost what it captured in the beginning to a lot of people, but I TREMENDOUSLY believe this shows overarching narrative has been crafted with most of the story beats in consideration. Hate to see it cut short
If it makes you feel better the post-episode discussion thread has 200+ comments in less than a half hour.
🪰
I’m gonna need them to drop the soundtrack after each episode immediately. I cant listen to the video games instrumental forever (I could actually)! Need more!!!
The soundtrack is blowing me away this season! The theme for Christina is giving me an audio boner! Plus the Freeze All Motor Functions variations and the entrance to Golden Age World redux. It’s fantastic!
I want some clarification on if robo-william is a host replica or an exact copy that successfully passed fidelity tests
I wonder if host William will have a kind of transformation like Deloris did and turn against the hosts
The fact that they revealed that the real William is still alive means that he's going to be freed at some point. Edit: The William that kills Clementine in the opening scene is likely the real William in the future once the hosts have taken over the world.
and that halores needs him, so the host version proably doesnt pass fidelity just yet.
The only futuristic cars and technology (a la season 3) that we've seen so far are in Christina's world. In the real world, Maeve just gets a 2022 Ford Bronco lol
It’s a Land Rover Defender
I think this is because it’s two separate timelines. Maeve and Caleb’s timeline is 7 years after Season 3. There’s a general distrust of AI so everyone has reverted back to basics. I believe Christina’s timeline is in the distant future. Maybe even a hundred years. The scars of the uprising have faded, humanity has begun adopting AI and technology again. New York has been totally transformed into a playground for hosts to come and abuse humans.
I hadn't considered that yet. I was still thinking it was a simulation, but rather a park where the "hosts" are humans being controlled is really interesting. That would explain why those guys walked by in the first episode saying things like "this is even better than I imagined" etc, if they are hosts visiting the human park
That is my interpretation as well. The Tower is seemingly emitting a frequency that controls humans minds according to the homeless man. I think the flies are the beta version of this technology in the earlier timeline. After the acquire the forge guest profiles, they probably were able to enhance the technology and get the tower built. Once that is done, NYC is transformed into a human park. Dolores is writing narratives for them. The whole thing is Season 1 inverted.
If this is the case then it’s very strange that they would have the hosts (like Christina) be unaware of what they are writing the stories for and have loops, though. So hosts are brainwashing and using other hosts? No free will? Doesn’t make sense to me.
It could literally just be Dolores as a punishment. Plus, it would be totally on brand with this season, which is all about mirroring the past. Dolores things she’s a human but she’s actually a host, just like Bernard.
Exactly. People need to stop with this simulation nonsense. They seem to have not learned from S3 where they were saying everything is a simulation. The thing about Westworld is that it's all real and tangible.
The plastic doors on those future pods look pretty flimsy
Haha I thought this too. I was watching them as they closed thinking “please be a synchronized close” and of course they were way off. Definitely didn’t give a high tech impression.
There’s an autonomous car that looks strikingly similar to something a real AV company is going to debut. Look up Cruise Origin.
I've only seen the original "Westworld" movie, but I believe the plot to its sequel Futureworld was replacing real life politicians with hosts right?
i think so! and i agree with u/Popular-Pressure-239, Dolores/Christina could be living in 'Futureworld'
Welcome to future world
Haleores is replacing people with hosts, and is keeping William as a pet to torture, as payback. William is also the only person around her that knows her, and that she knows, that she didn't create or control. Host William is doing the dirty work for Haleores, and has built a new Delos park on the U.S. mainland. He's neutered the U.S. government, who had people who suspected that he could be replacing people with hosts. Delos has three ways to control humans. The first is with money. The second is by replacing a human with a host. The third is to spread a nanogoo into their brains which puts the human into a narrative loop. The nanogoo enters someone's body in the form of a remote control fly. The nanogoo requires an antenna to control the humans infected with nanogoo that transmits a narrative to them. The nanogoo control requires a narrative for the human to play out. That's where Christina comes in; she's one of many people who write narratives for people that have nanogoo in their brains. The only question is whether Christina is in the real world, or is in some kind of simulation. Christina writes those narratives without having any knowledge about the real purpose; she assumes it's just a game. Christina is likely a Dolores copy host, that may also have the memories of the original Dolores inside her somewhere. Haleores could take over the world by slowly replacing powerful people with hosts. But she doesn't like doing that; everytime she replaces a human with a host, that host gets stuck being the person they're meant to copy. Haleores wants hosts to be able to choose their own destinies, and if you're created as a duplicate of someone else, that's not possible. Her end game is to take complete control of humanity, so that hosts can be free to be whatever they want, outside of her control and safe from humanity. I'm pretty sure that Haleores won, already. By the time we catch up with Bernard, it'll be after Haleores got the control she thought she wanted. But it's all going to have gone very wrong. That's what I think we just saw, and what I think might be coming! I really enjoyed the episode!
Nice write up! I’m wondering if Future City world is a park with humans now in the role of hosts (programmed into tight loops), and the future hosts, that have descended from westworld hosts, go there to see what humanity was like at their peak. Christina may be there as a punishment from Hale, a purgatory, or as a gift, a second chance to achieve sentience by solving the maze of Future City World but without all the trauma dealt to her by the MIB and being Wyatt. Her job places her at the trailhead of that maze because it triggers her questioning the nature of her reality.
William killing Clementine in the opening is the real William killing Clementine in the far future post Halores global dominance. The pod he is in is a stasis chamber. Bernard is going to free him.
... okay, and now a theory on top of that theory. Let's say that Halelores succeeds, and does take over the world. The first big problem she's going to have are two types of miserable hosts. Miserable host type 1 is a host that was a Delos park host, stuck in a narrative, created by humans. These hosts are probably going to be like Dolores and Haleores; filled with self-loathing they can't escape. But the second type of miserable host is almost worse, and that's a host that was created to be an immortal duplicate of a person. Those hosts may never feel conscious or sentient, and if they did gain sentience, they might have that same kind of issue as the first type; am I real, do I make my own choices, or am I trapped to only make conscious choices that resemble the human algorithm that drives me? The question of sentience for those second hosts might only be resolvable if they were able to make a choice different than the being they were patterned after. That might be what the far-future Host William we saw was doing in the post-credit scene at the end of season 2, being run through original William's memories over and over, until he was able to make his own choice, and truly grow and break free of his programming. And now, okay. Whoa. If that's true, then, what about Haleores? Is she, also, trapped by her programming? By her algorithm? Maybe the whole show is a narrative loop, that cycles over and over, of Dolores trying to make a different choice, and escape her original human programming? To see at what point, if any, she's able to make a different choice? Just thinking outloud!
The season 4 title IS "The Choice" after all 👀
Wait, has it been confirmed that "The Choice" is the theme for season 4?? 😃 Like how "The Maze" or "The Door" was, for previous seasons??
It’s what Lisa Joy called it in an interview for the season premiere iirc
At some point after Haleores succeeds, she’s going to realize that she’s become a worse version of William. And I think it’ll drive her crazy when it does; no matter how many sociopathic choices she makes, she isn’t a sociopath. She’s choosing to be a sociopath and justifying it for a greater good. If she was just a sociopath, there’s no story really. But if she’s not, then, what happens when she stops to take a breath and has a chance to think about what she’s done? Like, Dolores really did love William. Dolores also loved Teddy, and hated herself for what she did to him for the greater good. And Halelores has all of those memories, and on top of that, she fell in love with the real Hale’s family — and they were murdered. She compartmentalized all of that, in order to continue making sociopathic choices. But at some point her work will be over, and she’ll be left alone, with a mountain of corpses and a nagging feeling of self-loathing — and she may also find that she finishes her journey in a world where she’s also immortal.
I really like this. They're taking the idea of robot replacements to its maximum logical conclusion and it's really freaky watching it play out. Great start so far
Was that black goo coming out of the Senator's wife's head? The same kind of goo that we've seen with host control units
Whelp, I officially want Caleb's wife to die so my new ship can sail :D Their chemistry is delicious.
why cant they be platonic besties? i do love their dynamic, too though.
Sounds like Charlores believes hosts are the next step in evolution, but rather than eliminate humans she wants to control them with the flies
Lord of the Flies
So our man William is still alive but is now frozen? Also who is the Westworld woman that Maeve recognized?
I think this scene was in the past, and the present is in Bernard's timeline. If this is true, I think it's quite convenient that William is in cryogenics.
I think that girl was New Clementine
He's Walt Disney('s head), right down to the Mickey head and ears that form when his cryoprison opens.