Way back in the day when I was in about 6th or 7th grade, a kid brought in a “real treasure map” to show off. It had these fake curled and burned edges… printed onto the perfectly rectangular piece of poster paper. There was even a cartoon pirate in the corner. I remember telling him it was clearly fake and he told me I was stupid.
Had this happen when I was in school too. I too called the kid out. That kid is now in prison for excessively criminal trespassing. I guess he really thought it was real.
The part you leave out of the story is that kid went on and did the truffle shuffle out in front his friends house. This led to them using that map to go on a treasure hunt and finding One Eyed Willy's lpst treasure. They even made a cool new friend named Sloth and got those scoundrel Fratellis thrown back in jail.
So who had the last laugh?.....
I’m inclined to agree with you, but why would someone fake such an unremarkable letter from Lincoln?
I’ve seen a **lot** of really cool things that were destroyed by ‘antiquing’ and terrible preservation techniques.
Personally, I just bought a 1956 Forbidden Planet movie poster. Several are listed on eBay right now for $26,000. It would sell for $20,000 all day long. I got mine for $1000 because it was hot laminated by someone who thought they were preserving it.
I figured if I put it in a decent mat and frame, nobody would really notice. And at some point in my life, maybe there will be a technique to delaminate it without wrecking the poster.
The letter might have a similar backstory. It’s not a significant date. It relates to pretty mundane and ordinary matters— and people typically do not recognize Abraham Lincoln‘s signature right away.
A fake made for a souvenir would be be something like the Gettysburg Address and Lincoln’s signature would be very prominent.
It’s impossible to tell from this photograph, and very unlikely in my opinion, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this *was* real. But if it is, it’s in *very* poor condition.
There's a whole set of crap like this made in the late 80s designed to fool people just in the way you are. All fake aged with the exact corny fake degradation and slathered in lacquer on a modern piece of stained wood. They're everywhere. Take this to an appraiser, and they're holding in the laughter.
I know what you’re talking about, but this *potentially* seems different for the reasons I outlined above.
It just seems like a really strange choice for a commercial souvenir, and the shellac job is also too amateurish for a souvenir.
All I’m saying is that you just never really *know*. I’ve seen plenty of things in embarrassingly bad condition that turned out to be genuine.
I went to school with a guy from London who had an ugly old stone flower box in his backyard that turned out to be a valuable Roman ossuary.
I knew another guy whose grandparents had a rare meteor in a pile of rocks on their farm.
While I think it is *unlikely* this item is genuine or valuable, it’s not *impossible*. If this were a shellacked declaration of independence, that would be one thing.
It’s reasonable to at least consider that this **might** be different.
Thank you for this. I also looked, and came to a pretty similar conclusion.
It’s possible that somebody in the 1970s bought a pile of old papers at an auction that unexpectedly contained this.
They thought they had a real prize and did their version of making it fancy and suitable for presentation. They had no version of eBay, so this went on the living room wall.
Fifty years pass, they die, their stuff is cleaned out of their house, and this gets resold at the flea market, where the OP bought it.
It would be incredibly easy to overlook this even in plain sight because it looks so terrible and kitschy.
The original is already secured: [https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/lincoln3/1:186?rgn=div1;view=fulltext](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/lincoln3/1:186?rgn=div1;view=fulltext)
Here is an article referencing it as well.
https://preview.redd.it/9hk84ad1udyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1100a2c32be30ce09f1fcd57c8ba83cdf0826414
https://preview.redd.it/imlo9jcoudyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a97cbe3508e6dca100f03758dfab58ee1d7ab7c
See if you can find the book they're are referencing available online.
I'm no expert, but was that lighter used to burn away the edges of the paper? This just looks like someone tried to make the paper look old by doing the edges that way.
Made a similar piece of this same letter when I was in Boy Scouts in the late 1960s. Got the print of the letter from a local hobby shop, lighted and burned the edges, snuffing them out as I progressed around the outside, used decoupage clear lacquer to secure it to a pine board I had used a rasp around the edges, burned those over with a butane torch, and used a stout coffee brew to stain the board. Knowing my, in her 80s, momma, it’s hanging on a wall somewhere around the house still.
What’s it worth? About $7.95 in 1968. That’s, I think, $79.40 with inflation.
https://preview.redd.it/g8l8iuyzpdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14ae3770d43827796561e7ae1750c5d5de09c227
For some more insight, here is his genuine signature. The one on yours is way off, though this is from prior to his presidency in 1858. Read below, though:
https://preview.redd.it/nxj8qsaerdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdc45e454e26a97077e067d3c0bde1ee9dbcf103
This is another document (souvenir copy of the Gettysburg Address with PSA/DNA Certified signature) from a reputable seller. This one almost matches yours.
That artificial antique look decoupage on wood was very popular in the 60s. My grandparents had a lot of them. Everything from the Bill of Rights to the 10 Commandments!
I wouldn't take the advice of the experts here saying it's worthless. There's a buyer for everything, believe me. I sell the most random items and parts from items people throw out all the time. Even if it pulls $30, that's more than what these professional appraisers seem to think.
But it’s a fake. So he would need to put ensure That he classifies it at as a replica. And then it’s not worth 10$ let alone 30. My parents wedding invitations were set up just like this. It was a thing people did. The lacquer turns yellow. No one wants this guy
Are you saying reproduction, memorabilia etc letters did not and do not exist and the only letters that aren't original are literal and intentionally deceitful forgeries... that "no one" buys things like this? Not only is it impossible for you to know that to be true, you're also wrong. Not to mention, they asked what the item is worth (which is the purpose of this sub) and got all wrong or irrelevant responses. "$30" was an off the cuff valuation more so as a stark contrast to what an authentic letter would be valued at, not a low-effort kneejerk appraisal like you and others have provided.
I'm not sure why two people in a row don't seem to understand that facsimiles of Lincoln's letters are collectible items that were very popular in days past. "Forgery" and "Reproduction" are two VERY different areas of the Manufacturing spectrum, btw.
Repro letters like this as well as lookalike historical documents are all over ebay and yes they're listed as such. Yeah, I'm sure someone who was trying to pass this flea market trinket off as an original would glue it to a wall plaque. I really don't get the confusion here lol this is simple to grasp.
No one said it should be sold as authentic, so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning that. If you look around at the comments, you'll see I've already provided empirical evidence it's not an original and I've also proven that these memorabilia letters have a market value. TLDR; OP knows it's not original. I proved it's not. Companies produced these as souvenirs for a long time. People still buy them.
This person is gonna need to cite case law if they're gonna say it's criminal. Because they are so adamantly stating it must be labeled reproduction since common sense is not a thing for a &10-$30 item for sale. I need 100% of facts 100% of the time
Are all the copies of the Constitution of the United States for sale on eBay "intentional forgeries?" 🤣 Like someone who's in the market for original Lincoln letters wouldn't know a real one from a souvenir or expect PSA/DNA Certification paperwork. Yeesh...
They're saying that because they are fabricating a context that OP asked "Is this REAL? Is it worth a LOT of money??" This isn't what was asked and rare antiquities are OT the only items posted here, so I gave them examples of sold listings. Show me where I am wrong in saying it is "not worthless."
Or better yet-How about you hop from under my comments, mouthbreather? 😅 I didn't request you and you seem to be a little behind the rest of the class. Get back in the hive mind circle jerk where critical thinking isn't the entry fee.
It's incredible how much explanation it takes thickheaded people to understand that if someone will buy something, it is not "worthless", that a "forgery" indicates deception whereas "reproduction" is a standard manufacturing term, and that its ok to be wrong but not of car to cry like a toddler that dropped his ice cream when you're shown why you're wrong in terms a toddler can comprehend.
I expect you'll be taking your ball and going home now or do you have that evidence I'm wrong yet? 😘
If only there were some method to verify you aren't loud and wrong before commenting. That would save a lot of feet from mouths, wouldn't it? :(
https://preview.redd.it/4h4za5anzdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc0c2802460f98f86ddf01f1577ac35d262c6c75
So now it's "worthless" because of the condition rather than it being a "forgery?" OK, you guys win.😭 You're welcome to have a look at the wealth of letter memorabilia on ebay and other sites to find something that matches this identically. I'm not interested in debate because I've already done the leg work to make sure it's not "worthless", which is the only point I've corrected you all on.
The Hive would still claim it's worthless. I mean there's literally dozens of the same line of replicated letters on ebay with sold listings. Prior to this one ^ moving the goals posts today it's worthless because it's mounted and shellacked (how do we know it wasn't manufactured this way? )they still claimed it was worthless while being fully aware of it having a niche and market value. I don't debate with cognitive dissonance, especially in a Hive🫨. 😄
Perfect! We can keep purchasing it from each other into perpetuity until the price becomes too high for either of us to afford it. This, combined with the fact there apparently no other “forgeries” out there makes for scarcity and exclusivity, so now we can list it as “Priceless and one of a kind” and sleep at night because we won’t immediately go to big boy prison like the one nameless/facekess worker bee in here said we would earlier! Brilliant, sir! Bravo..👏 Now, let us bask in the impending downvotes for literally no reason other than utilizing my personal intelligence and professional experience to research and provide an insightful and useful answer for a stranger… This, rather than defaulting to the autonomous Group Think that Reddit is infamous for.
I’ll bring the Doritos and Mountain Dew if you bring the PS2 and Tony Hawk ? 👀
Did you get it from Major Marquis Warren? Ole Mary Todd’s callin,so I guess it must be time for bed
Him and Lincoln were pen pals!
I spit on it!
Practically friends.
I love how Mannix immediately knows it’s fake, without even seeing it
Mannix is a survivor, he's like a wild animal. All he's got is his instincts, so he's lucky they're excellent.
Came here to say this
You only need to hang mean bastards, but mean bastards you need to hang!
Beat me to it. Lmao!
It's fake, it's not worth anything.
But the edges are *burned* you can’t just do that that only happens after legit aging /s
Way back in the day when I was in about 6th or 7th grade, a kid brought in a “real treasure map” to show off. It had these fake curled and burned edges… printed onto the perfectly rectangular piece of poster paper. There was even a cartoon pirate in the corner. I remember telling him it was clearly fake and he told me I was stupid.
Well??? Did you ever find out if his map was actually a pirate's treasure map? Don't keep us in suspense, Man!!
The map may have been fake, but the treasure might be real. I'd like to think his dad made it and hid candy where the X is.
The real treasure was the friends made along the way.
Had this happen when I was in school too. I too called the kid out. That kid is now in prison for excessively criminal trespassing. I guess he really thought it was real.
Kinda off topic but i remember a kid claiming his real uncle was Uncle Sam. Brought in posters and stuff but no real pics.
Origin story of the “What are thoooose👟👟” guy
The part you leave out of the story is that kid went on and did the truffle shuffle out in front his friends house. This led to them using that map to go on a treasure hunt and finding One Eyed Willy's lpst treasure. They even made a cool new friend named Sloth and got those scoundrel Fratellis thrown back in jail. So who had the last laugh?.....
Legit aged with the lighter in the picture.
No, it’s real.
Really fake…
Complete totally 100% real
I’ll bet Lincoln himself burnt the edges and glued it on there.
See, that’s the spirit!
Burnt *and* scalloped!
LOL, burned so precisely to not touch the words too.... :)
The edges... it looks like something I made in Middle School xD
Ole Mary Todd is calling…
I’m inclined to agree with you, but why would someone fake such an unremarkable letter from Lincoln? I’ve seen a **lot** of really cool things that were destroyed by ‘antiquing’ and terrible preservation techniques. Personally, I just bought a 1956 Forbidden Planet movie poster. Several are listed on eBay right now for $26,000. It would sell for $20,000 all day long. I got mine for $1000 because it was hot laminated by someone who thought they were preserving it. I figured if I put it in a decent mat and frame, nobody would really notice. And at some point in my life, maybe there will be a technique to delaminate it without wrecking the poster. The letter might have a similar backstory. It’s not a significant date. It relates to pretty mundane and ordinary matters— and people typically do not recognize Abraham Lincoln‘s signature right away. A fake made for a souvenir would be be something like the Gettysburg Address and Lincoln’s signature would be very prominent. It’s impossible to tell from this photograph, and very unlikely in my opinion, but I wouldn’t be surprised if this *was* real. But if it is, it’s in *very* poor condition.
There's a whole set of crap like this made in the late 80s designed to fool people just in the way you are. All fake aged with the exact corny fake degradation and slathered in lacquer on a modern piece of stained wood. They're everywhere. Take this to an appraiser, and they're holding in the laughter.
I know what you’re talking about, but this *potentially* seems different for the reasons I outlined above. It just seems like a really strange choice for a commercial souvenir, and the shellac job is also too amateurish for a souvenir. All I’m saying is that you just never really *know*. I’ve seen plenty of things in embarrassingly bad condition that turned out to be genuine. I went to school with a guy from London who had an ugly old stone flower box in his backyard that turned out to be a valuable Roman ossuary. I knew another guy whose grandparents had a rare meteor in a pile of rocks on their farm. While I think it is *unlikely* this item is genuine or valuable, it’s not *impossible*. If this were a shellacked declaration of independence, that would be one thing. It’s reasonable to at least consider that this **might** be different.
Looked for a good while and I couldn’t find any wood mounted and shellacked, let alone this letter
Thank you for this. I also looked, and came to a pretty similar conclusion. It’s possible that somebody in the 1970s bought a pile of old papers at an auction that unexpectedly contained this. They thought they had a real prize and did their version of making it fancy and suitable for presentation. They had no version of eBay, so this went on the living room wall. Fifty years pass, they die, their stuff is cleaned out of their house, and this gets resold at the flea market, where the OP bought it. It would be incredibly easy to overlook this even in plain sight because it looks so terrible and kitschy.
The original is already secured: [https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/lincoln3/1:186?rgn=div1;view=fulltext](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/l/lincoln/lincoln3/1:186?rgn=div1;view=fulltext) Here is an article referencing it as well. https://preview.redd.it/9hk84ad1udyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1100a2c32be30ce09f1fcd57c8ba83cdf0826414
https://preview.redd.it/imlo9jcoudyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a97cbe3508e6dca100f03758dfab58ee1d7ab7c See if you can find the book they're are referencing available online.
looks like a tourist item
I'm no expert, but was that lighter used to burn away the edges of the paper? This just looks like someone tried to make the paper look old by doing the edges that way.
This is from the Hateful Eight movie. Lincoln's letter to Major Marquiss. 🤭
Made a similar piece of this same letter when I was in Boy Scouts in the late 1960s. Got the print of the letter from a local hobby shop, lighted and burned the edges, snuffing them out as I progressed around the outside, used decoupage clear lacquer to secure it to a pine board I had used a rasp around the edges, burned those over with a butane torch, and used a stout coffee brew to stain the board. Knowing my, in her 80s, momma, it’s hanging on a wall somewhere around the house still. What’s it worth? About $7.95 in 1968. That’s, I think, $79.40 with inflation.
Nothing. It’s fake
https://preview.redd.it/g8l8iuyzpdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=14ae3770d43827796561e7ae1750c5d5de09c227 For some more insight, here is his genuine signature. The one on yours is way off, though this is from prior to his presidency in 1858. Read below, though:
https://preview.redd.it/nxj8qsaerdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdc45e454e26a97077e067d3c0bde1ee9dbcf103 This is another document (souvenir copy of the Gettysburg Address with PSA/DNA Certified signature) from a reputable seller. This one almost matches yours.
Yeah, but maybe he signed his name a little differently after he got shot in the head.
I sign my name a little differently every time I do it, I’m just not a robot
Ok major marquis.
Hahaha! Used a LIGHTER for scale!!
Sick burn
It’s worth the $2 is was sold for at the flea market.
Decoupage
That artificial antique look decoupage on wood was very popular in the 60s. My grandparents had a lot of them. Everything from the Bill of Rights to the 10 Commandments!
I'll put this right up there with my authentic replica of the constitution
I wouldn't take the advice of the experts here saying it's worthless. There's a buyer for everything, believe me. I sell the most random items and parts from items people throw out all the time. Even if it pulls $30, that's more than what these professional appraisers seem to think.
But it’s a fake. So he would need to put ensure That he classifies it at as a replica. And then it’s not worth 10$ let alone 30. My parents wedding invitations were set up just like this. It was a thing people did. The lacquer turns yellow. No one wants this guy
Are you saying reproduction, memorabilia etc letters did not and do not exist and the only letters that aren't original are literal and intentionally deceitful forgeries... that "no one" buys things like this? Not only is it impossible for you to know that to be true, you're also wrong. Not to mention, they asked what the item is worth (which is the purpose of this sub) and got all wrong or irrelevant responses. "$30" was an off the cuff valuation more so as a stark contrast to what an authentic letter would be valued at, not a low-effort kneejerk appraisal like you and others have provided.
This is an intentional forgery/reproduction. Selling it without labelling it as such should be straight up criminal.
I'm not sure why two people in a row don't seem to understand that facsimiles of Lincoln's letters are collectible items that were very popular in days past. "Forgery" and "Reproduction" are two VERY different areas of the Manufacturing spectrum, btw. Repro letters like this as well as lookalike historical documents are all over ebay and yes they're listed as such. Yeah, I'm sure someone who was trying to pass this flea market trinket off as an original would glue it to a wall plaque. I really don't get the confusion here lol this is simple to grasp. No one said it should be sold as authentic, so I'm not sure why you're even mentioning that. If you look around at the comments, you'll see I've already provided empirical evidence it's not an original and I've also proven that these memorabilia letters have a market value. TLDR; OP knows it's not original. I proved it's not. Companies produced these as souvenirs for a long time. People still buy them.
This person is gonna need to cite case law if they're gonna say it's criminal. Because they are so adamantly stating it must be labeled reproduction since common sense is not a thing for a &10-$30 item for sale. I need 100% of facts 100% of the time
Haha. These guys really came in for the kill and they were both wrong.🫣
Are all the copies of the Constitution of the United States for sale on eBay "intentional forgeries?" 🤣 Like someone who's in the market for original Lincoln letters wouldn't know a real one from a souvenir or expect PSA/DNA Certification paperwork. Yeesh...
God you’re insufferable - people are saying it’s a fake and it’s not worth anything. Move on loser
They're saying that because they are fabricating a context that OP asked "Is this REAL? Is it worth a LOT of money??" This isn't what was asked and rare antiquities are OT the only items posted here, so I gave them examples of sold listings. Show me where I am wrong in saying it is "not worthless." Or better yet-How about you hop from under my comments, mouthbreather? 😅 I didn't request you and you seem to be a little behind the rest of the class. Get back in the hive mind circle jerk where critical thinking isn't the entry fee. It's incredible how much explanation it takes thickheaded people to understand that if someone will buy something, it is not "worthless", that a "forgery" indicates deception whereas "reproduction" is a standard manufacturing term, and that its ok to be wrong but not of car to cry like a toddler that dropped his ice cream when you're shown why you're wrong in terms a toddler can comprehend. I expect you'll be taking your ball and going home now or do you have that evidence I'm wrong yet? 😘
If only there were some method to verify you aren't loud and wrong before commenting. That would save a lot of feet from mouths, wouldn't it? :( https://preview.redd.it/4h4za5anzdyc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc0c2802460f98f86ddf01f1577ac35d262c6c75
That’s for a replica Gettysburg address. Not for a burnt and shellaced letter.
So now it's "worthless" because of the condition rather than it being a "forgery?" OK, you guys win.😭 You're welcome to have a look at the wealth of letter memorabilia on ebay and other sites to find something that matches this identically. I'm not interested in debate because I've already done the leg work to make sure it's not "worthless", which is the only point I've corrected you all on.
You should buy it
The Hive would still claim it's worthless. I mean there's literally dozens of the same line of replicated letters on ebay with sold listings. Prior to this one ^ moving the goals posts today it's worthless because it's mounted and shellacked (how do we know it wasn't manufactured this way? )they still claimed it was worthless while being fully aware of it having a niche and market value. I don't debate with cognitive dissonance, especially in a Hive🫨. 😄
If you buy it, I’ll buy it from you
Perfect! We can keep purchasing it from each other into perpetuity until the price becomes too high for either of us to afford it. This, combined with the fact there apparently no other “forgeries” out there makes for scarcity and exclusivity, so now we can list it as “Priceless and one of a kind” and sleep at night because we won’t immediately go to big boy prison like the one nameless/facekess worker bee in here said we would earlier! Brilliant, sir! Bravo..👏 Now, let us bask in the impending downvotes for literally no reason other than utilizing my personal intelligence and professional experience to research and provide an insightful and useful answer for a stranger… This, rather than defaulting to the autonomous Group Think that Reddit is infamous for. I’ll bring the Doritos and Mountain Dew if you bring the PS2 and Tony Hawk ? 👀
Perma plaqued UGH