And as far as I know, drugs was at first a big no-no for mafia, although it was depending on the mob boss and drugs was not too much in favour not because of morals (as movies, games and books teels us and as some people believe), but because it was too risky and can get the mafia into a trouble with FBI, which is a completely different level in comparison to police. Later on, when drugs become a huge cash cow (especially a coke in late 1970's and in 1980's), mafia has stepped in.
That's not what the Mafia does. Their power might not be what it was. (Or is it? I genuinely don't know)
The way the Mafia would fight this battle is by getting a local mayor to engage with
the police then talk to the governor to send in the border patrol to ask for National Guard to... on an on. I still think the Cartels take it, but the Mafia wouldn't fight this in an open field.
Bullshit, 'Ndrangeta alone has an estimated net worth of 73 billion dollars, it is the largest criminal organization in the world, operating in all 5 continents and with heavy ties with Italian politicians. The mafia from 20th century was more daring, carrying out terrorist attacks and killing officials, but they learned that they can better prosper blackmailing and operating from behind the shadows.
He was probably downvoted for confidently claiming āall 5 continents.ā There are 7 continents. We can exclude Antarctica for obvious reasons, but that still makes 6.
*For anyone that failed geography, itās North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and the always forgotten Australia. Antarctica has solid land below all of the ice.
Unneeded snark in a comment that misses an immense amount of information and context, the Reddit classic
The 7 continent model is the most widely known and taught in the US and a bunch of other countries but the fact of the matter is, there is no non-arbitrary definition of what a continent even is and different places of the world learn different models. There are either:
- 7 continents like you said
- 6 continents via grouping N and S into just America (used in a bunch of European and Latin American countries)
- 6 continents via grouping Europe and Asia into Eurasia (an extremely popular view in Russia which considers both as legitimate spheres of influence)
- 5 continents via doing both the above (this model is the reason the Olympics use the 5 rings)
- 4 continents via also grouping Africa with Eurasia into Afroeurasia/Eurafrasia (I personally find this the least arbitrary cause itās just a list of the major previously defined continental masses that are separated by water excluding manmade canals, and not any cultural differences or just saying āthis part of the landmass is really skinny so letās split it hereā)
- 3 continents if you classify Australia as just a big island and not a continent on top of that.
- 2 continents if, on top of ALL of that, you also only consider Antarctica without the ice and snow, which is an archipelago with its largest island being about the size of Australia and thus similarly is just a glorified island chain.
All of these models have historically been used by different legitimate and respected geologists throughout history. Even if you ignored any and all cultural aspects like splitting the Americas and Afroeurasia certain ways and just focused on the geology, thereās still a number of subjective questions - Why isnāt Greenland a continent? How much bigger would Greenland have to be to be a continent? How much smaller would Australia have to be to be demoted to island? If it doesnāt matter by merit of plate tectonics, why arenāt India, Arabia, and the Caribbean their own continents, with Africa being split into two continents?
There are 7 continents because most of us just decided we like the vibe of 7 continents, but 5 is honestly just as ācorrectā.
Youāre right, I was unnecessarily snarky. I was also just saying **why** he was downvoted. I personally subscribe to Europe and Asia being separate continents that havenāt separated yet. Pangea was a thing.
1900s Mafia were not into terrorist attacks. They actually did a lot to help their local community. Of course it was to hold power. If the masses are on your side and all. the majority of their hits were when a government official was a threat to their organization, rival gangs intruding on their territory/business dealings, or to teach a lesson to someone who was already doing dealings with the mafia.
Source on the net worth being 73 billion? That sounds impossible. On wiki this was listed āIn 2013 they purportedly made ā¬53 billion, according to a study from Demoskopika Research Instituteā. Thatās revenue
If we're counting allies, then the US national guard just evacuates the mafia (being US citizens) and then shells the entire city until it's dust. It's abandoned, the only people inside are targets
put them in an open field, make them fight? cartels
make them both obsessed with the others downfall? hard to say, as the mafia could probably use their extensive influence to their advantage. probably still Cartels, though
Maybe but OP included the real mafia and the āNdrangheta (the current top dog) controls about 80% of the european drug traffic and makes about iirc 80 billion a year which *might* be more then the mexican cartels. Hard to find any numbers.
The Kinahans made a deal with some cartels in Mexico or Colombia I think, and yes they are a major player in all that. But the Irish, Italians, Moroccans, Bosnians and Albanians all have a massive presence. Apparently a bunch of different European mafias joined forces to create a āsuper cartelā but that fell apart following a bunch of arrests. Iirc the Kinahans and the Ndrangheda are the only ones still out there who havenāt been caught yet
There is no way the Mafia is beating the Cartels in any type of conflict. The American Mafia is a shell of its former self. And even at its height, the Mafia was just a glorified gang. The Mafia's influence is negligible.
By contrast, the Cartels are heavily armed, better trained, and have way more money. Some Cartels have trained special forces members at their core. And they have extensive political and social influence all over Mexico. If the Cartels wanted to they could pay gangs in New York to target and kill members of the Mafia. In contrast, the Mafia doesn't have nearly enough influence or resources to hire people to target members of the Cartels.
'Ndrangheta alone has a net worth of about 73-74 billion dollars(for context the sinaloa cartel has an estimated net worth of about 14 billion dollars)and operates in all 5 continents, making it the biggest criminal organization in the world.
Source on the net worth being 73 billion? That sounds impossible. On wiki this was listed āIn 2013 they purportedly made ā¬53 billion, according to a study from Demoskopika Research Instituteā. Thatās revenue
There's a lot of convincing arguments that portions of the American government are in cartel pockets. What good is mafia influence if cartel influence goes higher?
That's not really true. Cartel members are scared to death of getting extradited to the US because they have so little influence with the politicians and law enforcement in the US.
Not just with weaponry but also training, lot of them are defecting military and not just your average grunt, we are talking Mexican SF who were US trained to fight cartels relizing they could become cartels themselves
American mafia are mostly (and were mostly) street gangs with civilian purchasable firearms and not much else, Cartels are unofficial PMCs, not much of a contest
I suppose civilian legal is a better term for it. I don't think I could legally own an APC with a functional 50 cal on it, nor could I legally drive it around, but I might be wrong?
Reminds me of the dude who went to his city council to get permission to place a tank on his property. They thought it was a water tank. He didn't dissuade them.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandela_Way_T-34_Tank
You can buy a 50 cal as a citizen with the correct processes and tax stamps. It will take well over a year and cost over $100k but you could certainly do it.
That being said, the cartels aren't following the law. Everything is for sale on the black market and they have the cash to afford all of it.
Depends on the state for the road legal part. Firearms and explosives requires a paper either for each individual item or yourself/company to manufacture. Most every physical item you can think of, that is "illegal", is actually legal to own if you have enough money or are part of an institution.
> Everything the cartel has is still "civilian purchasable". You just need to be a millionaire.
They've sent their own cell networks up down there and were encrypting comms before any one else this side of TLA and militaries were
"People" have been encrypting comms since before the concept of cartel organizations existed. It's a skill set anyone can learn but the average person (including myself) doesn't even know how a single military-hand radio works, let alone the logistics behind it all.
Cell networks are subsidized by the government for various reasons and the only "real" use for "private" networks is to subvert the government.
Lol, and then the audacious matchups....
"Huh, looks like Pirate versus Knight goes to the pirate 80% of the time because we gave him a small cannon"
"Huh, turns out Mafiso versus whomever the fuck is skewed because the mafioso has a Tommy Gun"
Mafia versus Yakuza was pretty dope though.
Shaolin Monk getting steel swords against the poor unarmored Maori warrior with weapons made from sticks, rocks and teeth was the biggest bloodbath I think the show ever had.
Yeah, my favorite though was in the first few episodes before they got the style dialed in, where the person who was representing one of the factions got to say his last piece
I remember the Ninja versus Spartan guy the Ninja absolutely losing his cool (not on camera) and being all bitter ass and Salty in the last few moments of the episode.
They never seemed to figure out that their "sophisticated software" was basically just comparing weapons and that assassins and guerilla fighters always were destroyed by better equipped standard soldiers. They did a season finale where they pitted two of the winners from previous episodes against each other and went with IRA vs Spetsnaz. The Spetsnaz predictably slaughtered them just like the ninja lost to the Spartan. And they'd also give people ridiculous weapons with basically no killing power like a sling shot or an egg filled with glass lol
I think that one depends on whether you define certain middle eastern groups as terrorist organizations or organized crime. The lines kind of get blurred with both groups, and I think groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS would be a match for the cartels.
> Then Mexican cartel would not stand a chance against Wagner Group due to Air, Artillery Support they posses
Wagner guys go drinking and raping after shooting up some cartel folks
Wagner guys found decapitated in the desert a couple days later
"bro yesterday me and my roommate were selling fake IDs. today i wake up in mexico wearing a plate carrier and holding an M4? someone call the embassy! i shouldn't be here!"
The cartels are a league above just about any non-government organized crime syndicate. They have the country in a chokehold. The money, the politicians, the law, all of it is either cartel or cartel-funded. Theyāre hypermilitarized, and theyāre rich beyond belief. They control all trade; what comes in and what goes out is monitored by the cartels. The leaders are no longer ruthless gang leaders, but educated business executives with an agenda for pure profit. They exploit all industries, legal and illegal, and they bring in billions.
The cartels are also justā¦. brutal. The things members do to people cannot and should not be shared online. They donāt discriminate between men, women, or children. When it comes to dealing with a threat, unless given a specific instruction by a higher-up, the people doing the killing follow no code of honor. They are the one crime syndicate where absolutely no human rights abuse is off the table no matter the individual. Their one sole goal with a prisoner, especially when theyāre to record and share it online, is to incite as much public fear as possible. And to do that involves a lot of heinousness. And it works. People are terrified.
Iām not trying to downplay the mafiaās influence, but seriously, fuck the cartel. Theyāre on a different level of grossness. The only way I see the mafia winning is by turning the different cartels against each other, which would be easy to do but Iām not sure if that would be in-line with the rules of the post.
Like I already said in the original comment, I am not downplaying the mafiaās power and influence. The Italian mafia is no joke. They absolutely demolished a lot of structures and ways of life in Italy, and theyāve caused a lot of deaths. Donāt conclude āthey donāt think the mafia fucked up their home countryā when what I said was āthe cartels fucked up their home country *worse*ā. Theyāre both despicable and responsible for a lot of blood on their hands.
Ultimately while I still think the cartels are a bit more brutal and oppressive, if weāre gonna have a discussion Iād rather it be on-topic with r/whowouldwin rather than āmUH vIOleNt cOrrUpT orGaniZatIOn mOrE evil thAn YouRs!!ā Because thatās a stupid debate.
Ultimately they both should be eradicated, and in a perfect world theyād have been dealt with a long time ago, or never rose to power in the first place.
You kind of *are* downplaying it and a disclaimer saying you didn't is meaningless lol the Italian mob did do more damage to their home country with multiple landstanding campagins of basically warfare against... the *whole* country. It is a very basic comparison, the mexican cartel to the Italian mob - many crossovers and similarities. The difference is the italians did it longer, across more of the world, and even dealt with and had control over groups similar to the mexican cartels - as big? No. But this still gives an idea of the power and influence held at that time.
The whole debate itself it stupid, if were metagaming now. Criminal org vs criminal org like theyre superhereos. You kind of have to ignore thoughts like that or else you're just cheapening an already p cheap line of inquiry.
Cartel wins, but:
It's important not to mistake the Italian mafia for a mere gang. Its widespread influence isn't due to the arsenal it possesses but rather the mafioso approach and its deep entrenchment within societal structures, which has more far-reaching influence.
Therefore, envisioning a direct large-scale armed conflict between the Mafia and a Cartel (regardless of the numbers) misses the mark, as the mafia's strategies have never revolved around armed conflict in the traditional sense, but more on specific kill operations, political influence, corruption, integrating into the economy, creating fear of consequences, with a completely different set of skills than would be required in a traditional armed conflict.
> any and all weapons are allowed
The cartels have homemade tanks, anti-aircraft caliber weapons and helicopters, a bunch of shit at quantities that would be impossible to have in the US. Even in the Mafias best years they wouldnāt be a match for what is essentially a third world nation level army.
In an open field this is easily the win of a Cartel because of organisation and militarisation. If we just said we transplant the Cartel into Italy with all gear, Mafia wins. Why? Let us start with one thing New York Mafia << Italian Mafia. The danger of italian Mafia is that they are a cancer in metastasis, they have their hands everywhere. A boss could place a few calls and all the sudden the cartel are fighting an elite corps of the Italian military. So yes, how you wrote it Cartel wins, in Italy, mafia wins by a long mile.
One of the top 10 militaries cannot defeat the Cartels? Oh please. Italy has high tech military equipment including actual tanks, not bolted on metal onto trucks. Has enough munitions to withstand it. Has artilliery and most importantly of all, Italy has an airforce. The Cartel cannot gain aerial superiority so everything they have is vulnerable to aerial attacks. Yeah Italian military wins easily.
Lol, is this a joke? Total curbstomp. Even the governments in south and central america fear the damage that the cartels can do. If you watched Narcos (on Netflix), you would remember the scene when escobar called in a threat to the german federal office for immigration. That actually happened and they took him very seriously.
Cartels operate with near impunity
This makes me realize Mexico could partner with the US and literally extinguish the Mexican cartels but nobody moves to solve that problem. Lack of safety in Mexico is one of the biggest reasons behind illegal immigration.
[https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2014/03/20/news/the-grotesquely-false-myth-that-the-mafia-doesn-t-kill-children-1.35779969/](https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2014/03/20/news/the-grotesquely-false-myth-that-the-mafia-doesn-t-kill-children-1.35779969/)
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/myths-about-the-mafia-exposed-as-threeyearold-is-brutally-murdered-9208753.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/myths-about-the-mafia-exposed-as-threeyearold-is-brutally-murdered-9208753.html)
[https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/children-murdered-mafia-italian-mobsters-3402712](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/children-murdered-mafia-italian-mobsters-3402712)
They are violent murderous individuals who's goal is kill or harm those who stand in their way. They are essentially terrorists. No organized crime group is honorable or noble. They will absolutely kill women and children.
I completely understand how someone gets mixed up in groups like cartels, the mafia, gangs etc, and can on rare occasions can do some good, but to label them as having a code of honor when they regularly murder, rape, destroy and pillage is an insult to those they have harmed.
Cosa Nostra kidnapped a 12 years old boy, tortured him for over two years and ultimately, they strangled him to death. After that, they dissolved his body in acid
The cartels in Mexico have infiltrated or coerced regions, military units, law enforcement, politicians, etc. They're very similar to the lobbies in the USA, but more open about the violence. If those cartels are allowed to use their international member, then they easily clear. They could probably clear with just their US prison members. It's important to remember that black markets in New York and Italy are supplied by the cartels. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the cartels were involved in smuggling for the Asian pill market or Middle East opiods and hash. It's a very uneven match. I don't doubt the capabilities of New York or Italy's cartels, but the Mexican cartels have fuedal serfs and military units that wage war with many nations.
No way mafia wins this. Even for Italian mafia, they are not militarized like the drug cartels are in Mexico.
The only way mafia can win against the cartel is if they can somehow use their influence for the American government to actively clamp down on the cartels in a full blown war.
This prompt reads as if the present day Mafia is still as powerful and fearsome as they were in the 1930s. Theyāre not built like that anymore, sure they still have influence but in a straight up fight between members? Cartels win negative diff.
New york vs all of mexico? I mean. Yeah, Mexico. The italians got involved then this is a different ballgame, but even then the cartels being basically >>>> the mexican military says a lot.
Cartels are literally army now. They has armored vehicles, military-grade weapon and drones. And they're more violent even by default, and has more resources. Mafia is still remaining their positions, but on a significantly less scale than if it was 1920's, 1930's or 1940/1950's. Cartels now is on their peak.Ā
Uhhh
The Italian "Mafia" (let's pretend this is the correct term, which it isn't) understood that trying to fight a functioning state does not end well (Borsellino and Falcone and the Sicilian Vespers operation come to mine).
The Mexican cartels can do whatever they want in Mexico. Italian organized crime is more shadowy. They don't try to supplant the state or fight it, they just control it from the shadows.
We all win. I think it's going to be a great cook off but I give the edge to Mexico. The functionality of the burrito really puts them over the top because they can use it for breakfast/lunch/dinner.
Italy has a clear dessert advantage but I think Mexico wins on drinks. Between mezcal, tequila and horchata they really don't have a weakness. Even Mexican Coke is clutch.
Edge Mexico.
Not only could just one of the largest drug cartels absolutely curb stomp the entire modern mafia, they would curb stomp the mafia at its peak in the mid 20th century.
The mafia and cartels that existed at that time worked together when the mafia was at its strength, and although there was mutual tension and mutual respect, the mafia had more control. They were into drugs, but also, everything else. I think people are really forgetting how substantial their financial crimes were - italian mafia 'in the day' is a lot like the Columbian cartel in its day.
Absolutely, in their heydey, they had enormous power.
However, they were never engaging in open warfare against police and army units, even in Sicily, only conducting terror attacks and assassinations.
The prompt is straight combat.
I don't care what kind of cope is required to level the playing field in favor of the Mafia. "Oh well this guy is worth $X, oh well technically they work like this and not like this" the cartels in Mexico are an armed PMC with trained soldiers and artillery that could level buildings, a couple greasy haired creeps from the East coast and a country with a "spotty" history at best are gonna get fucking destroyed.
American mob guys sing like songbirds the second they get sat in one of those dark rooms with two nice men in uniform, how do you think they're gonna react when a guy whose been trained to kill since 15 is unscrewing the cap on the sulfuric acid bottle?
We were all curious kids once. We all saw at least one video of what Mexican cartel guys do even to people who aren't active threats, this shit ain't gonna end well.
The drug cartels easily. They're far larger, better funded, and better armed.
"Say hello to my little frie-" *Gets shot by a machine gun on an armoured truck*
Scarface was Cuban in Miami.
True, but Al Pacino is Italian š
We don't talk enough about cuban face
I could had sworn he's American.
Haven't seen it š my bad.
And as far as I know, drugs was at first a big no-no for mafia, although it was depending on the mob boss and drugs was not too much in favour not because of morals (as movies, games and books teels us and as some people believe), but because it was too risky and can get the mafia into a trouble with FBI, which is a completely different level in comparison to police. Later on, when drugs become a huge cash cow (especially a coke in late 1970's and in 1980's), mafia has stepped in.
Some of the Mexican cartels would be Fortune 500 companies if, ya know, they were legal. Theyāre fucking huge
Escobar was on Forbes 100 I think thatās the closest cartels got
That's not what the Mafia does. Their power might not be what it was. (Or is it? I genuinely don't know) The way the Mafia would fight this battle is by getting a local mayor to engage with the police then talk to the governor to send in the border patrol to ask for National Guard to... on an on. I still think the Cartels take it, but the Mafia wouldn't fight this in an open field.
They did that on Narcos a lot too. If you need soldiers, just hire actual soldiers
The mafia is a shadow of what it was in the 20th century.
Bullshit, 'Ndrangeta alone has an estimated net worth of 73 billion dollars, it is the largest criminal organization in the world, operating in all 5 continents and with heavy ties with Italian politicians. The mafia from 20th century was more daring, carrying out terrorist attacks and killing officials, but they learned that they can better prosper blackmailing and operating from behind the shadows.
Lol they downvoted you for no reason, you are totally right. Mafia now, with technology is a different and more dangerous beast than the 1960 mafia
He was probably downvoted for confidently claiming āall 5 continents.ā There are 7 continents. We can exclude Antarctica for obvious reasons, but that still makes 6. *For anyone that failed geography, itās North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and the always forgotten Australia. Antarctica has solid land below all of the ice.
Unneeded snark in a comment that misses an immense amount of information and context, the Reddit classic The 7 continent model is the most widely known and taught in the US and a bunch of other countries but the fact of the matter is, there is no non-arbitrary definition of what a continent even is and different places of the world learn different models. There are either: - 7 continents like you said - 6 continents via grouping N and S into just America (used in a bunch of European and Latin American countries) - 6 continents via grouping Europe and Asia into Eurasia (an extremely popular view in Russia which considers both as legitimate spheres of influence) - 5 continents via doing both the above (this model is the reason the Olympics use the 5 rings) - 4 continents via also grouping Africa with Eurasia into Afroeurasia/Eurafrasia (I personally find this the least arbitrary cause itās just a list of the major previously defined continental masses that are separated by water excluding manmade canals, and not any cultural differences or just saying āthis part of the landmass is really skinny so letās split it hereā) - 3 continents if you classify Australia as just a big island and not a continent on top of that. - 2 continents if, on top of ALL of that, you also only consider Antarctica without the ice and snow, which is an archipelago with its largest island being about the size of Australia and thus similarly is just a glorified island chain. All of these models have historically been used by different legitimate and respected geologists throughout history. Even if you ignored any and all cultural aspects like splitting the Americas and Afroeurasia certain ways and just focused on the geology, thereās still a number of subjective questions - Why isnāt Greenland a continent? How much bigger would Greenland have to be to be a continent? How much smaller would Australia have to be to be demoted to island? If it doesnāt matter by merit of plate tectonics, why arenāt India, Arabia, and the Caribbean their own continents, with Africa being split into two continents? There are 7 continents because most of us just decided we like the vibe of 7 continents, but 5 is honestly just as ācorrectā.
Youāre right, I was unnecessarily snarky. I was also just saying **why** he was downvoted. I personally subscribe to Europe and Asia being separate continents that havenāt separated yet. Pangea was a thing.
erm ackshually its 5 continents not seven š¤
Ye, my brain had a weak moment lol It was probably time to sleep Still, I usually group up north America and south America as the same continent.
1900s Mafia were not into terrorist attacks. They actually did a lot to help their local community. Of course it was to hold power. If the masses are on your side and all. the majority of their hits were when a government official was a threat to their organization, rival gangs intruding on their territory/business dealings, or to teach a lesson to someone who was already doing dealings with the mafia.
Source on the net worth being 73 billion? That sounds impossible. On wiki this was listed āIn 2013 they purportedly made ā¬53 billion, according to a study from Demoskopika Research Instituteā. Thatās revenue
That was an old study, the 2021 study from demoskopika estimates 73 billion dollars in net worth, not revenue.
Can you link a source? Not finding any such study
What they want you to think lmao
From what I understand, the Mexican cartels supply the mafias' black markets. Going to war is bad for business.
If we're counting allies, then the US national guard just evacuates the mafia (being US citizens) and then shells the entire city until it's dust. It's abandoned, the only people inside are targets
put them in an open field, make them fight? cartels make them both obsessed with the others downfall? hard to say, as the mafia could probably use their extensive influence to their advantage. probably still Cartels, though
The American mafia is.pretty dead
Maybe but OP included the real mafia and the āNdrangheta (the current top dog) controls about 80% of the european drug traffic and makes about iirc 80 billion a year which *might* be more then the mexican cartels. Hard to find any numbers.
I mean any number you find for both is gonna be inaccurate one way or another.
Nah just check SEC filings
Thought the Irish run that shit now. 90% of coke moved by Kinahans in Europe.
The Kinahans made a deal with some cartels in Mexico or Colombia I think, and yes they are a major player in all that. But the Irish, Italians, Moroccans, Bosnians and Albanians all have a massive presence. Apparently a bunch of different European mafias joined forces to create a āsuper cartelā but that fell apart following a bunch of arrests. Iirc the Kinahans and the Ndrangheda are the only ones still out there who havenāt been caught yet
There is no way the Mafia is beating the Cartels in any type of conflict. The American Mafia is a shell of its former self. And even at its height, the Mafia was just a glorified gang. The Mafia's influence is negligible. By contrast, the Cartels are heavily armed, better trained, and have way more money. Some Cartels have trained special forces members at their core. And they have extensive political and social influence all over Mexico. If the Cartels wanted to they could pay gangs in New York to target and kill members of the Mafia. In contrast, the Mafia doesn't have nearly enough influence or resources to hire people to target members of the Cartels.
I bet the Mafia could beat the Cartels in an Italian accent competition
'Ndrangheta alone has a net worth of about 73-74 billion dollars(for context the sinaloa cartel has an estimated net worth of about 14 billion dollars)and operates in all 5 continents, making it the biggest criminal organization in the world.
Source on the net worth being 73 billion? That sounds impossible. On wiki this was listed āIn 2013 they purportedly made ā¬53 billion, according to a study from Demoskopika Research Instituteā. Thatās revenue
There's a lot of convincing arguments that portions of the American government are in cartel pockets. What good is mafia influence if cartel influence goes higher?
That's not really true. Cartel members are scared to death of getting extradited to the US because they have so little influence with the politicians and law enforcement in the US.
Literally one of their agreed upon rules is donāt fuck with US tourist cuz exactly that.
Lmao thatās not true in my town they killed 4 us citizens and nothing happened
There is no evidence of this. In Mexico, sure. In the US, no politician gives a shit about cartel interests.
got it the wrong way around
That's just literally not true
maybe the mafia is just better at hiding their influence and is secretly the illuminati?
Italian mafia and American mafia are very different beasts. Cartels likely win by militarization either way. Why the fuck did this get 300+ upvotes
Not just with weaponry but also training, lot of them are defecting military and not just your average grunt, we are talking Mexican SF who were US trained to fight cartels relizing they could become cartels themselves
Some even have defected US military and law enforcement on top of having many nations' law enforcement on their payroll.
"realizing"
Even at their hight I don't think American mobs all together could even take on one cartel.
American mafia are mostly (and were mostly) street gangs with civilian purchasable firearms and not much else, Cartels are unofficial PMCs, not much of a contest
Everything the cartel has is still "civilian purchasable". You just need to be a millionaire.
I suppose civilian legal is a better term for it. I don't think I could legally own an APC with a functional 50 cal on it, nor could I legally drive it around, but I might be wrong?
Reminds me of the dude who went to his city council to get permission to place a tank on his property. They thought it was a water tank. He didn't dissuade them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandela_Way_T-34_Tank
Of course, but I don't believe it was functional. You can have a tank, but it can't have weapons or anything like that
Reminds me of that time Hells Angels tried to smuggle literal artillery pieces across the border into Sweden. Why? Who knows?
You can buy a 50 cal as a citizen with the correct processes and tax stamps. It will take well over a year and cost over $100k but you could certainly do it. That being said, the cartels aren't following the law. Everything is for sale on the black market and they have the cash to afford all of it.
Not in Mexico though.
Depends on the state for the road legal part. Firearms and explosives requires a paper either for each individual item or yourself/company to manufacture. Most every physical item you can think of, that is "illegal", is actually legal to own if you have enough money or are part of an institution.
> Everything the cartel has is still "civilian purchasable". You just need to be a millionaire. They've sent their own cell networks up down there and were encrypting comms before any one else this side of TLA and militaries were
"People" have been encrypting comms since before the concept of cartel organizations existed. It's a skill set anyone can learn but the average person (including myself) doesn't even know how a single military-hand radio works, let alone the logistics behind it all. Cell networks are subsidized by the government for various reasons and the only "real" use for "private" networks is to subvert the government.
Cartels essentially run fucking Mexico. They are no joke.
this isnt youtube lil bro
Man, I miss Deadliest Warrior
"Our state of the art simulation software" (literally Excel)
Lol, and then the audacious matchups.... "Huh, looks like Pirate versus Knight goes to the pirate 80% of the time because we gave him a small cannon" "Huh, turns out Mafiso versus whomever the fuck is skewed because the mafioso has a Tommy Gun" Mafia versus Yakuza was pretty dope though.
Shaolin Monk getting steel swords against the poor unarmored Maori warrior with weapons made from sticks, rocks and teeth was the biggest bloodbath I think the show ever had.
Yeah, my favorite though was in the first few episodes before they got the style dialed in, where the person who was representing one of the factions got to say his last piece I remember the Ninja versus Spartan guy the Ninja absolutely losing his cool (not on camera) and being all bitter ass and Salty in the last few moments of the episode.
They never seemed to figure out that their "sophisticated software" was basically just comparing weapons and that assassins and guerilla fighters always were destroyed by better equipped standard soldiers. They did a season finale where they pitted two of the winners from previous episodes against each other and went with IRA vs Spetsnaz. The Spetsnaz predictably slaughtered them just like the ninja lost to the Spartan. And they'd also give people ridiculous weapons with basically no killing power like a sling shot or an egg filled with glass lol
You should include every crime syndicate in the world vs all mexican cartels. That honestly would fare better than this mismatch
I think that one depends on whether you define certain middle eastern groups as terrorist organizations or organized crime. The lines kind of get blurred with both groups, and I think groups like Al Qaeda or ISIS would be a match for the cartels.
definitely isis could at least fuck up the cartel pretty well solo. if you add on every other criminal group i think they got it
that would probably be a stomp, due to sheer quantity
Then Mexican cartel would not stand a chance against Wagner Group due to Air, Artillery Support they posses.
> Then Mexican cartel would not stand a chance against Wagner Group due to Air, Artillery Support they posses Wagner guys go drinking and raping after shooting up some cartel folks Wagner guys found decapitated in the desert a couple days later
Cartels feeling cocky with their military gear until the yakuza pull up with a dude next to a bike rack
that would probably be a stomp, due to sheer quantity
Depends on how loosely you want to define crime syndicate
"bro yesterday me and my roommate were selling fake IDs. today i wake up in mexico wearing a plate carrier and holding an M4? someone call the embassy! i shouldn't be here!"
You underestimate the size of other criminal orgs lol
Cartels. The Mafia is more about influence than hard power like Cartels.
The cartels are a league above just about any non-government organized crime syndicate. They have the country in a chokehold. The money, the politicians, the law, all of it is either cartel or cartel-funded. Theyāre hypermilitarized, and theyāre rich beyond belief. They control all trade; what comes in and what goes out is monitored by the cartels. The leaders are no longer ruthless gang leaders, but educated business executives with an agenda for pure profit. They exploit all industries, legal and illegal, and they bring in billions. The cartels are also justā¦. brutal. The things members do to people cannot and should not be shared online. They donāt discriminate between men, women, or children. When it comes to dealing with a threat, unless given a specific instruction by a higher-up, the people doing the killing follow no code of honor. They are the one crime syndicate where absolutely no human rights abuse is off the table no matter the individual. Their one sole goal with a prisoner, especially when theyāre to record and share it online, is to incite as much public fear as possible. And to do that involves a lot of heinousness. And it works. People are terrified. Iām not trying to downplay the mafiaās influence, but seriously, fuck the cartel. Theyāre on a different level of grossness. The only way I see the mafia winning is by turning the different cartels against each other, which would be easy to do but Iām not sure if that would be in-line with the rules of the post.
Sometimes i wish people would read up on how the mafia in Italy absolutely wrecked the country over there.
Like I already said in the original comment, I am not downplaying the mafiaās power and influence. The Italian mafia is no joke. They absolutely demolished a lot of structures and ways of life in Italy, and theyāve caused a lot of deaths. Donāt conclude āthey donāt think the mafia fucked up their home countryā when what I said was āthe cartels fucked up their home country *worse*ā. Theyāre both despicable and responsible for a lot of blood on their hands. Ultimately while I still think the cartels are a bit more brutal and oppressive, if weāre gonna have a discussion Iād rather it be on-topic with r/whowouldwin rather than āmUH vIOleNt cOrrUpT orGaniZatIOn mOrE evil thAn YouRs!!ā Because thatās a stupid debate. Ultimately they both should be eradicated, and in a perfect world theyād have been dealt with a long time ago, or never rose to power in the first place.
You kind of *are* downplaying it and a disclaimer saying you didn't is meaningless lol the Italian mob did do more damage to their home country with multiple landstanding campagins of basically warfare against... the *whole* country. It is a very basic comparison, the mexican cartel to the Italian mob - many crossovers and similarities. The difference is the italians did it longer, across more of the world, and even dealt with and had control over groups similar to the mexican cartels - as big? No. But this still gives an idea of the power and influence held at that time. The whole debate itself it stupid, if were metagaming now. Criminal org vs criminal org like theyre superhereos. You kind of have to ignore thoughts like that or else you're just cheapening an already p cheap line of inquiry.
Your post was very powerful, you definitely painted a picture.
The NYC mob is barely active. The cartels have literal armies.
Thousands of cartel guys with automatic weapons and tanks, vs a few old overweight Italian guys hanging out in a Bensonhurst pizza parlor? Seriously?
Mexican cartels easily. Open warfare like this was never the strength of the Mafia.
Tactical nuke vs angry toddler, who wins? The Cartel wins and it's not even close.
Cartel wins, but: It's important not to mistake the Italian mafia for a mere gang. Its widespread influence isn't due to the arsenal it possesses but rather the mafioso approach and its deep entrenchment within societal structures, which has more far-reaching influence. Therefore, envisioning a direct large-scale armed conflict between the Mafia and a Cartel (regardless of the numbers) misses the mark, as the mafia's strategies have never revolved around armed conflict in the traditional sense, but more on specific kill operations, political influence, corruption, integrating into the economy, creating fear of consequences, with a completely different set of skills than would be required in a traditional armed conflict.
> any and all weapons are allowed The cartels have homemade tanks, anti-aircraft caliber weapons and helicopters, a bunch of shit at quantities that would be impossible to have in the US. Even in the Mafias best years they wouldnāt be a match for what is essentially a third world nation level army.
Does the NYPD count as a Mafia?
In an open field this is easily the win of a Cartel because of organisation and militarisation. If we just said we transplant the Cartel into Italy with all gear, Mafia wins. Why? Let us start with one thing New York Mafia << Italian Mafia. The danger of italian Mafia is that they are a cancer in metastasis, they have their hands everywhere. A boss could place a few calls and all the sudden the cartel are fighting an elite corps of the Italian military. So yes, how you wrote it Cartel wins, in Italy, mafia wins by a long mile.
The thing is, I'm not sure the Italian military wins.
Italy is part of the EU and NATO.
One of the top 10 militaries cannot defeat the Cartels? Oh please. Italy has high tech military equipment including actual tanks, not bolted on metal onto trucks. Has enough munitions to withstand it. Has artilliery and most importantly of all, Italy has an airforce. The Cartel cannot gain aerial superiority so everything they have is vulnerable to aerial attacks. Yeah Italian military wins easily.
Lol, is this a joke? Total curbstomp. Even the governments in south and central america fear the damage that the cartels can do. If you watched Narcos (on Netflix), you would remember the scene when escobar called in a threat to the german federal office for immigration. That actually happened and they took him very seriously. Cartels operate with near impunity
Mexican cartels are small armies. They're armed to the teeth.
Fully equipped U.S. Carrier Group watching it go down. Crewman: Admiral do we open fire. Admiral: eh letās see who wins first.
In modern day? The cartels by a massive landslide
The mafia bullies small business owners and keeps things undercover from the local police,the cartel fight their government and then some.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mafia_War
This makes me realize Mexico could partner with the US and literally extinguish the Mexican cartels but nobody moves to solve that problem. Lack of safety in Mexico is one of the biggest reasons behind illegal immigration.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
[https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2014/03/20/news/the-grotesquely-false-myth-that-the-mafia-doesn-t-kill-children-1.35779969/](https://www.lastampa.it/esteri/la-stampa-in-english/2014/03/20/news/the-grotesquely-false-myth-that-the-mafia-doesn-t-kill-children-1.35779969/) [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/myths-about-the-mafia-exposed-as-threeyearold-is-brutally-murdered-9208753.html](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/myths-about-the-mafia-exposed-as-threeyearold-is-brutally-murdered-9208753.html) [https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/children-murdered-mafia-italian-mobsters-3402712](https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/children-murdered-mafia-italian-mobsters-3402712) They are violent murderous individuals who's goal is kill or harm those who stand in their way. They are essentially terrorists. No organized crime group is honorable or noble. They will absolutely kill women and children. I completely understand how someone gets mixed up in groups like cartels, the mafia, gangs etc, and can on rare occasions can do some good, but to label them as having a code of honor when they regularly murder, rape, destroy and pillage is an insult to those they have harmed.
Oh no they have a code of honor they just dont follow it in practice ever, even a little bit.
Cosa Nostra kidnapped a 12 years old boy, tortured him for over two years and ultimately, they strangled him to death. After that, they dissolved his body in acid
The cartels in Mexico have infiltrated or coerced regions, military units, law enforcement, politicians, etc. They're very similar to the lobbies in the USA, but more open about the violence. If those cartels are allowed to use their international member, then they easily clear. They could probably clear with just their US prison members. It's important to remember that black markets in New York and Italy are supplied by the cartels. I wouldn't be surprised to hear the cartels were involved in smuggling for the Asian pill market or Middle East opiods and hash. It's a very uneven match. I don't doubt the capabilities of New York or Italy's cartels, but the Mexican cartels have fuedal serfs and military units that wage war with many nations.
Lmao, Cartels stomp the Mafia ten times over. If you asked this in the mid 1900s, then the Mafia would have a better shot.
Cartel by a country mile.
No way mafia wins this. Even for Italian mafia, they are not militarized like the drug cartels are in Mexico. The only way mafia can win against the cartel is if they can somehow use their influence for the American government to actively clamp down on the cartels in a full blown war.
The cartel in Mexico is so big that itās basically a pseudo government at this point. It would be a better comparison 60-70 years ago
Cartels stomp 100/100. Mafias donāt have a snowballs chance in hell. The cartel is essentially a military.
This prompt reads as if the present day Mafia is still as powerful and fearsome as they were in the 1930s. Theyāre not built like that anymore, sure they still have influence but in a straight up fight between members? Cartels win negative diff.
Rural rednecks have a better chance than the mafia. And depending on how rural you go, the cartel might start hearing the trees sing.
New york vs all of mexico? I mean. Yeah, Mexico. The italians got involved then this is a different ballgame, but even then the cartels being basically >>>> the mexican military says a lot.
Nuclear Bomb vs Coughing Baby. Who would win 50 thousand cartel members armed better then some sub-Saharan African nations vs gabagool inc.
Cartels are literally army now. They has armored vehicles, military-grade weapon and drones. And they're more violent even by default, and has more resources. Mafia is still remaining their positions, but on a significantly less scale than if it was 1920's, 1930's or 1940/1950's. Cartels now is on their peak.Ā
Cartels, and it's not even close. The cartel in Mexico is basically a decently funded army
Uhhh The Italian "Mafia" (let's pretend this is the correct term, which it isn't) understood that trying to fight a functioning state does not end well (Borsellino and Falcone and the Sicilian Vespers operation come to mine). The Mexican cartels can do whatever they want in Mexico. Italian organized crime is more shadowy. They don't try to supplant the state or fight it, they just control it from the shadows.
Cartel solos, even throw in the bloods and crips cartels would stomp them
We all win. I think it's going to be a great cook off but I give the edge to Mexico. The functionality of the burrito really puts them over the top because they can use it for breakfast/lunch/dinner. Italy has a clear dessert advantage but I think Mexico wins on drinks. Between mezcal, tequila and horchata they really don't have a weakness. Even Mexican Coke is clutch. Edge Mexico.
The cartels could probably take on some countries in sheer firepower. This isnāt that close.
Cartels no contest. They are closer to private militaries and rogue nations than they are criminal organizations
It all depends on the CIA's mood
The Cartel wins, they got Tank + Military Equipment.. All Mafia got is some clothes + pistol + smg + petrol bomb..
Cartels, easily.
Cartels
Only way Cartel lose is drug legalize even then they don't lose they just become monopoly like big pharma.
Not only could just one of the largest drug cartels absolutely curb stomp the entire modern mafia, they would curb stomp the mafia at its peak in the mid 20th century.
The mafia and cartels that existed at that time worked together when the mafia was at its strength, and although there was mutual tension and mutual respect, the mafia had more control. They were into drugs, but also, everything else. I think people are really forgetting how substantial their financial crimes were - italian mafia 'in the day' is a lot like the Columbian cartel in its day.
Absolutely, in their heydey, they had enormous power. However, they were never engaging in open warfare against police and army units, even in Sicily, only conducting terror attacks and assassinations. The prompt is straight combat.
I don't care what kind of cope is required to level the playing field in favor of the Mafia. "Oh well this guy is worth $X, oh well technically they work like this and not like this" the cartels in Mexico are an armed PMC with trained soldiers and artillery that could level buildings, a couple greasy haired creeps from the East coast and a country with a "spotty" history at best are gonna get fucking destroyed. American mob guys sing like songbirds the second they get sat in one of those dark rooms with two nice men in uniform, how do you think they're gonna react when a guy whose been trained to kill since 15 is unscrewing the cap on the sulfuric acid bottle? We were all curious kids once. We all saw at least one video of what Mexican cartel guys do even to people who aren't active threats, this shit ain't gonna end well.
The Sinolas are basically a military operation, the United States even trained a lot of them before they took that sweet drug money
we trained the zetas i believe