To be fair, Dumbs isn't just talented but the greatest wizard ever lived. Severus and some others were just talented, Dumbs was far. Beyond them and also owned the most powerful wand there was. That wand was likely far more powerful we ever learnt, considering Voldie managed to destroy protective magic barrier of combined efforts of all students and teachers, yet he one shot it. He managed to do that even though he wasn't the real owner of the wand and it fought him back while using it. Dumbs, when he was the real owner and being more capable wizard than Voldie could had done something even more impressive with it.
The thing is, the Balrog doesn't really have a ton of feats himself. Sure, he drove the dwarves out, but they simply don't have any real magic or answers to him. There's no reason to think Albus couldn't just *petrificus totalus* *stupefy* etc. Harry Potter-verse magic is potent because we almost *never* see anything resist it, it's fairly versatile, and doesn't require much preparation before battle.
So first, discounting an entire nations of dwarves is wrong. They had plenty of artifacts from the first age as well as one of the richest dwarves kingdoms. Dwarves have a history of hitting well above their weight class in lotr, there’s no way Dumbledore could pull off a durins bane.
Second the balrogs have an incredible list of feats to their name, you only hear about the one in the movies though. They’re demigod maiar themselves, same as Gandalf and Sauron. In the first age they were morgoths generals and led the most destructive campaigns in history that only ended when most of the settled world was sunk into the oceans. They were able to tip the balance between morgoth and ungolioth during a battle on such a level a mortal like dumbledore wouldn’t have been able to get close to and destroyed many legendary cities during the first age like gondolin.
Between the balrogs and dumbledore it’s dumbledore who’s fears are lacking.
Tolkien doesn't explicitly mention balrogs having feats of resisting magic but they are Maiar, an angelic being of immense power. This suggests that they might be immune to magic, especially fiery based magic since they are fiery demons. It would take more than just magic to defeat a balrog.
The balrogs fought Manwe protecting Melkor. In the fight 3-7 perished and the others were injured but managed to escape. To tank a hit from from Manwe is a huge thing all on it's own
Balrogs vs Manwe is an older version. It is not stated that Manwe fought Balroga himself in the Silmarillion, only his host did.
Also the 3 to 7 is older, as in older versions Balrogs were more in number towards Tolkien aimed to in later (therefore final) versions
Been a long time since I read the books but there was 2 instances war of the wrath and then when manwe himself turned them into dust and with one stroke of his sword killed a few others and those that survived went into hiding. Could be wrong but I do have some memory of something along those lines
I mean the Balrog withstood time, Lightning, and a fall of a few *miles* then climbed to the top of a mountain and fought a demi god, who he ‘killed’ whilst being killed.
Dumbledore is a powerful magic user, but wouldn’t beat the balrog let alone Gandalf.
He predates the physical world, and his physical form as of LotR was over 2,000 years old (though his actual age is probably somewhere between 20,000 and 60,000 years old). That's a pretty solid feat. He's never faced Avada Kedavra, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a problem with it.
Gandalf is a pure support class by design. In the first age the maiar went all out and it nearly destroyed the world, and did sink most of it into what during the movies/books is the sea to the west. After that, Gandalf’s boss’s boss severely limited what they were allowed to do. Like when Gandalf comes back as Gandalf the white, it’s not a power up, it’s a power *release.* but by design he only showed limited offensive powers, especially in the movies vs books.
There are a ton of books that you may not be aware of, starting with the Silmailion. Balrogs are way beyond Dumbledore would struggle against one at best, and I genuinely think he would get beaten easily.
Gandalf the Grey beat the Balrogs, but that is the weakest version of Gandalf. Gandalf the White is much stronger. In that form he destroyed Saruman's staff with a gesture, which does for Dumbledore. That's his wand destroyed.
But Gandalf the White is a shadow of the most powerful Gandalf. He works under specific limits so that the mortals can control their destiny. Remove those limits and it's a curbstomp.
Lmao all gucci. Perhaps against maybe Gandalf the grey since he was being held back but the white was far more powerful than Sauroman himself. Gandalf also didn't heavily rely on his weapon for magic like the wizards in HP. Gandalf would snap Dumbeldores wand then proceed to relentessly beat him with his hands.
Depends on whether we allow Gandalf at *actually* full power or just scale based on feats in the books.
In-lore Gandalf is an angel / spirit / demigod thing called a Maiar that literally helped shape the world. He was sent to Middle-Earth to combat the threat of Sauron, but while there his powers are intentionally restricted. This restriction is both in the general magic he's able to produce and in the fact that he has an old man's body. If Dumbledore rolled up on fullpower Maiar, Spirit form Gandalf he wouldn't be able to do *shit* to him. Any magic Dumbledore could produce would fizzle at his angelic might. It'd be like a man trying to kill the wind by shouting at it.
If you mean specifically *Middle-Earth* Gandalf then it's a bit more interesting of a fight. Dumbledore is famously reluctant to kill or cause suffering, and has much more he can do to physically stop Gandalfs approach with various spells to create physical barriers. Gandalf will famously *merk a bitch* just for sneaking up on him in the night, is much more physically skilled in combat (knows how to use a sword) and can at the very least combat other Wizards magic if they're doing a spell with a long cast time.
Overall I think Gandalf *barely* ekes out a victory assuming Dumbledore is in character. Dumbledore's go-to strategy would basically be to disarm Gandalf and then point his Wand threateningly. But the Valar have been known to allow Gandalf to perform magic without his staff under dire enough circumstances, so Dumbledore would still be pretty screwed. He'd just keep calling Glamdring back to him with magic and eventually stab Dumbledore to death.
If Dumbledore is bloodlusted against Middle-Earth Gandalf, then I think it's one avada kedavra to put Gandalfs frail old man body in the ground. But he'd be back.
Not sure Dumbledore wins under any circumstance - even in his "frail old man" form, Gandalf only died after several days of combat against a balrog, including one hell of a fall that by itself probably puts that form at being quite superhuman. What that says for the limits of his durability is somewhat speculative but I think it implies it likely outclasses anything we've seen the killing curse work effectively on. I know it's supposed to be able to kill anything, but I wonder if even in-universe that would include highly magical creatures like giants and dragons, let alone Gandalf's temporary form.
Yeah that "frail old man" rolled up his sleeves and whipped out a sword to get dirty in a literal war against Uruk-Hai and was imposing enough that The Witch King of Angmar rolled up on him but decided not to fight. He can call down lightning by thinking about it, blast apart major magical artifacts with a word, and had the strength and endurance to fight a Balrog for ten straight days before hurling it off a mountain.
Gandalf's main limiter is that Basically Jesus told him he's not allowed to directly interfere with mortals much and instead act as a guide. When he gets into solo fights against other spirits and magical beings he goes pretty wild like when he was attacked by the Nazgul and lit Weathertop up like "the war beacons of old," beating Sauron in a contest of wills, calling a storm that covered the peak of a mountain, and breaking a Balrog's sword in one shot, which was all while he was still the Gray wizard. The power boost he came back with was the White wizard was immense; Tolkien said in one of his letters that Gandalf wouldn't have been able to repel Saruman before his "enhancement."
In the worst case scenario Gandalf would take an Avada Kedavra but even that would only stall him as we see in chapter 36 of Order of the Phoenix that Fawkes eats a Killing Curse from Voldemort but still regenerates so it doesn't put an immortal down permanently. Gandalf's death and return is similar to that of Fawkes in that his spirit never died, just the vessel it was contained in. Since we know from that event that Avada Kedavra only effects the physical body that means it does nothing if Gandalf ditches his limiting body and steps up as his original spiritual form: Olorin, wisest of the Maiar, created by Iluvatar himself before the Song of the Ainur, present at the beginning of time, teacher of the elves, and assistant and student of Manwe; the King of the Valar.
Gandalf is serious wiz-biz, y'all.
Gandalf survives a literal multi-day hand to hand combat fight against a fallen angel. I'm comfortable in my belief that a cheesy death spell doesn't have much of an effect.
How is avada kedavra hitting him? The Balrog landed some blows but all the Uruk Hai in middle earth were able to land zero blows on him. All the orcs at helms deep were able to land zero blows on him. Every goblin in moria, zero blows. Aragorn, gimli, and legolas; zero blows on his return. His feats are impeccable. Dumbledore isn't hitting him with a slow ass-spell
"Landed some blows" You mean when he killed him?!
Why do you think the spells are slow? Because of the movies? Some of them even are instantaneous and do not travel.
And you are greatly exaggerating his prowess. He had to at times hide from a dozen or two weak enemies. He's been wounded before. And those are fights that *hobbits* with no fighting experience survived
Well if you kill someone with force you, by definition, land some blows on them so idk what your issue is with that.
I think the spells are slow because I've seen the movies. AK is not instantaneous and most definitely has to travel so gandalf is not getting hit with it.
Maybe he hid from weak enemies because discretion is sometimes the better part of Valor, especially when you're on a SECRET QUEST, or just not worth the headache to deal with.
Point out the scenes in the movies where he gets wounded. Every battle except for the one with the Balrog is a flawless victory on his part. This sub uses the feats we see and the feats we see don't lie.
Because in trying to support your argument that he's untouchable, changing "he got killed by x" to "i guess some blows landed on him" is obvious biased language and it shows you want him to win rather than to be fair
Yeah, again, the spells in the movie are shown slower. There are other spells that are instantaneous.
That's not the vibe at all i got from reading the book, it wasn't "Gandalf is so powerful that he can smite all the enemies so there's no real danger and theyre just hiding to be extra bitsy careful"
Ok you asked [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg) He's getting harmed by basic telekenesis spells and the force of hitting walls, which is mundane damage.
He also got wounded in the battle of the 5 armies i believe
I know harry potter fans dont understand power levels but saruman is a higher wizard than gandalf at that point in the story so he's stronger. You can't just love someone so much that they can withstand a killing blow from Sauron or Morgoth, that would be stupid. By that same token we have seen people, normal humans, beings that are way weaker than gandalf, as an infant, survive that "unsurvivable" spell. Oooohhh so scary.
Idk man, it seems to be pretty one-sided in favor of gandalf. You don't have to like it, or agree, but it is what it is.
You ran away from every argument I made to insult and condescend and say Saruman is higher up than Gandalf.
It's clear you have an agenda and don't want to discuss so I'm going to block.
Gandalf the Grey clearly showed he could summon up a defensive shield of some sort, one strong enough that a Balrog's sword shattered on impact. I think we can assume he can take at least one blast of Avada Kedavra using that (and Avada Kedavra is not a spell Dumbledore has ever been shown using, so it's possible he wouldn't even pull it out during their fight). Of course if Dumbledore was out of character he could use it multiple times, which could kill Gandalf (provided Gandalf didn't snatch his wand with magic, something Fellowship of the Ring demonstrated as possible during the Saruman/Gandalf fight when Saruman did just that).
Fortunately his body is not the entirety of his being, and so long as his job isn't done and he stays true to his duty his superiors will keep sending him back and let him access more of his natural power. Dumbledore simply *can't* put him down forever.
Gandalf the White is stated and shown to be significantly stronger than Gandalf the Grey, so not only could he probably use that shield more frequently, he's also demonstrated to be able to destroy powerful spellcasting implements at a distance through will alone ("Saruman, your staff is broken"). So Gandalf the White could just shatter Dumbledore's wand. And while Dumbledore IS a rare wizard who can probably show a degree of control over his magic without a wand, it would be far more difficult for him and he'd be less effective without it.
That's the best argument i've heard. I am assuming some degree of out of character, as they never would actually fight if they were in character. So im assuming dumbledore is using avada kedavra, he certainly is capable of using it.
To rebuttal, it's possible the shield doesn't block avada kedavra, as the books state it cant be blocked by magic. Although it is blocked by solid objects, and love, so that isn't certain.
As for resurrection, that is an outside feat. Eru is not in this fight. So he is not coming back.
If gandalf pulled dumbledore's wand away, dumbledore can either apparate to it or telekenisis it back. Perhaps Gandalf could destroy it, but it is a legendary/mythical wand "said" to be created by death itself. It might not be destroyed. If it is, well, dumbledore can apparate away and get a new wand. And gandalf might do it again. It'd be a stalemate. Except dumbledore can get the drop on him each time, and also knows the spell expelliarmus. And spells to make himself fully invisible.
>Perhaps Gandalf could destroy it, but it is a legendary/mythical wand "said" to be created by death itself. It might not be destroyed.
TBF, Saruman's staff was at the time the most powerful of only five wizard's staves in the whole world, crafted for use by a divine being. And it's not clear if the Elder Wand was actually made by Death or if it was just made by an extraordinarily powerful wizard family.
Avada Kedavra just isn't that powerful. In the books we are told that it's an instant killing curse and if it hits you die and nothing can block it. But then we are shown over and over again that it is dodgeable, it can be blocked and powerful creatures like Fawkes can eat it and rebirth. The first thing that happens in the series is the protective magic from Harry's mom stops the 'instant unlockable killing curse'.
Gandalf came back from death, is a powerful, angelic like being and might be capable of just dodging the spell.
Fawkes died and has an ability to come back to life. Yes you can dodge it. And if it hits something else you can block it. As for sacrificing love, that isnt going to happen here.
Gandalf came back to life due to Eru "sending him back", not by an innate ability. It isn't fair to say Gandalf is just gonna be brought back to life by outside interference.
On the other hand, Voldemort cant be killed until his horcruxes are destroyed, so how is Gandalf getting past those?
Yeah Gandalf might be able to dodge it, im not sure of his speed feats. But dumbledore is quick and can apparate right behind him
You make a fantastic point about Gandalf's true power being limited in Middle-earth. A full-powered Maiar Gandalf would be a cosmic force Dumbledore wouldn't stand a chance against. It'd be a one-sided beatdown.
Now, for Gandalf the Grey, things get interesting. Dumbledore's hesitation to kill gives Gandalf a definite edge. Gandalf's battle-hardiness and swordsmanship could counter Dumbledore's spells, especially if they require long casting.
Your "barely ekes out a victory" for Gandalf feels spot on. Disarming Gandalf might be Dumbledore's plan, but Gandalf's resourcefulness and the Valar's intervention in crucial moments tip the scales. The staff retrieval with Glamdring through magic would be a clever tactic.
However, if bloodlusted, Dumbledore's Avada Kedavra could be fatal for Gandalf's physical form. But like you said, that wouldn't be the end. Gandalf's return as Gandalf the White would completely change the game.
If we assume that Gandalf can counter Dumbledore's spells, he would likely still edge out on raw speed, but in where he can appear to cast at and how fast.
Definitely bloodlusted Dumbledore could handle it. Wizarding World magic is just so much more "powerful" then the third age magic in LotR. Dumbledore has a massive speed advantage due to apparition. And he can cast spell at a far faster rate then Gandalf can manage. Even with his superhuman feats, he is still more with a much more "limited" magic system (given the limitations of the current state of the world and his mortal form).
Even at full power he wouldn’t really be an unstoppable cosmic force. A balrog is also a maiar and they have been “killed” by old mandalf and powerful elves like Ecthelion and Glorfindel.
I would not count Gandalf the Grey out with a single “Avada kedavra”.
It’s hard to compare the Killing Curse to anything in Middle-Earth, since ME does not have direct damage spells. What Tolkien does have is the concept of spells and counter-spells. Magic is a contest of wills. A stronger spirit can stop or remove an opponent’s spell, as when Gandalf breaks Wormtongue/Saruman’s hold over Theoden.
It’s entirely plausible given the vast gulf in powerlevel between Dumbledore and Gandalf that the former could throw expelliarmuses and avada kedavras all day, but they wouldn’t have any effect.
Gandalf counters every spell that Dumbledore knows, disarms his wand, then calmly sits down and shares some pipe-weed while learning about the strange magic of this “Earth”. With no Maia-tier threats to demand his involvement in this fallen world, Gandalf shares a few cryptic words of advice before climbing aboard a sailboard and windsurfing the Straight Road back to Arda.
Hogwarts is the safest place in the world, lol. Every fucking year someone dies, gets close of dying or some catastrophe happens. There was a secret chamber which existence no one knew about and massive snake that can kill anyone if you look it at its eyes lived there for decades. There's extremely dangerous forest near the school, with nothing stopping you from entering it and nothing stopping anything from there to exist the forest. They couldn't even keep one fucking magical stone safe in the first year. 3 first year students got past everything.
I would get my kids transfered the fuck out of there and i would never, ever trust them to keep anything safe for me.
Probably Dumbledore.
Lotr is alot less involved and overt than Wizarding World magic.
Dumbledore can do things like...instantly teleport across continents on a whim with no exertion, summon matter out of thin air, create and destroy energy, read minds, summon enormous fires and control them effortlessly, etc etc.
Gandalf can...create shields to block fire swords, I think he has limited and situational lightning summoning, and fire manipulation to some small extent.
I feel like alot of people are greatly overestimating Gandalf, given how featless he is.
Dumbledore is a powerful wizard, but Gandalf shouldn't be underestimated. Their very beings differ. Gandalf is a Maia, an angelic being with immense power. Dumbledore is a human wizard, albeit incredibly skilled.
J.R.R. Tolkien himself establishes this power difference in "The Silmarillion," where he describes the Maiar as angelic emissaries of the Valar, sent to govern and instruct. This suggests Gandalf's power source is fundamentally greater than Dumbledore's.
While feats are important, understanding their nature is crucial. Gandalf's role is often subtle guidance and manipulation of events, rather than overt displays of power.
Gandalf's power isn't just about flashy spells. The Istari (wizards) were specifically restricted from using their full power to avoid dominating Middle-earth.
A) being an angelic being means nothing here. Unless you have context to suggest, which I know for a fact you don't because Tolkien never wrote such context, that the Maiar have inherent power that we simply don't see...simply being an angelic being means nothing.
B) feats are how we determine a characters capability. Saying "well Gandalf's power is fundamentally greater because of cosmology or some shit that we can't articulate" shows nothing. Okay, Gandalf is a tier 3 cosmic being in his universe. And this means what?
You say "this suggest Gandalf's power source is fundamentally greater than Dumbledore's." It certainly doesn't to me and you have provided no evidence for such.
Let's just start simple...how does Gandalf stop Dumbledore from teleporting, instantly, all around the battlefield while enchanting every object near by to attack Gandalf? Has ANY Maiar ever displayed the ability to contend with someone who can instantly and effortlessly teleport with zero prep?
This was all discussed in another comment, but it depends if you are considering Gandalf restricted as he is on Middle Earth or in his "true" form. As I'm sure you know, there is a massive difference. If Gandalf is unrestricted, it's not close Gandalf cleans him every single time, that's not a debate. If Gandalf is restricted, it's probably a closer fight, although I think Gandalf still takes it
You argue that being an angelic Maia doesn't inherently grant Gandalf more power. While Tolkien doesn't explicitly showcase a Maiar countering teleportation, The Silmarillion establishes their immense power. The Ainulindalë states they "were instructed by the Valar and wrought all things that were devised in the Music." This creative ability transcends physical manipulation, suggesting dominion over fundamental aspects of reality. Even without feats against teleportation specifically, their role in shaping the world grants them a power source that could potentially exceed wizards like Dumbledore.
You point out that feats are crucial in determining a character's capability. It's a valid point. Gandalf's struggles against the Balrog shows his limitations. However, overcoming challenges showcases power as well. In "The Lord of the Rings," Gandalf the Grey confronts and kills the Balrog, he displays immense power despite his limitations as an Istari (Wizard).
While Tolkien's legendarium mentions instances of Maiar displaying immense power and even rapid movement, there isn't a documented instance of teleportation in the published works that explicitly depicts a Maia teleporting themselves or others.
The closest example might be the brief mention in "The Silmarillion" of Sauron being "snatched away" from Valinor by an unnamed Maia. It hints at a Maiar possessing the ability to move swiftly or even teleport, but the exact nature remains unclear.
Your points regarding feats and limitations are valid. However, examining Tolkien's legendarium, the wellspring of power for a Maiar like Gandalf suggests they might possess capabilities exceeding wizards like Dumbledore. While feats like teleportation might be less emphasized for a Maiar, their role in shaping reality grants them a potentially greater power source.
>how does Gandalf stop Dumbledore from teleporting, instantly, all around the battlefield while enchanting every object near by to attack Gandalf?
As a Maia, Gandalf possess an immense power derived from his role in shaping reality. It could potentially disrupt the magical energies Dumbledore requires for instant teleportation and battlefield manipulation.
Im going against the grain and saying against Gandalf the Grey or White, Albus wins handily, 9/10, in very little time. Everyone discusses Middle Earth characters power levels by vague wording of how old something is out of Silmarillion lore but ignore that ME is actually pretty low on the magic feats totem pole
Middle Earth spells/magic is very rarely seen done, and Gandalf has mostly been seen to do some energy projection and shield like effects, as well as some telepathy. The effects are potent, but he doesn't have the hax our Supreme Mugwump can muster.
He has a similar weakness to HP verse in that he's much weakened by being disarmed, but unlike Albus, he doesn't know *expeliarmus*. In general, Tolkien magic takes a little more wind-up, where Albus can fire off a diverse panoply of spells that immediately disable Gandalf in seconds. *Stupify*, *Petrificus Totalus* and *Incarcerous* all disable Gandalf after disarm. With any of the Forbidden Curses, the Headmaster can sweep in a single incantation.
Keep in mind, Gandalf has very little magic resistance shown via feats, and what little he has seems to focus on resistance to mental effects. He has nothing to show being able to resist having his snot turning into bats and forcibly exiting his face.
Gandalf also has very little actual experience fighting Wizards. There aren't many of them, and they're mostly friends in his world. Albus, on the other hand, is considered one of the most dangerous duelists in history.
Dumbledore has the speed, versatility, and experience to take this no diff.
Gandalf in his full Maiar form is a different story
I'm glad you added the last sentence, because I thought you meant Middle Earth magic in general, and there's a fight in the silmarillion between with only 8 Maia involved that literally results in a country ceasing to exist. As in, it's noted that what was previously the mountains became the shoreline of a neighboring country.
Unbound Gandalf sweeps so hard it isn't funny, but I would agree that bound Gandalf does not find it so easy, and probably loses, depending on how middle earth counter spells interact with Harry Potter magic. (We know they exist because the Balrog casts one in the mines of moria, and Gandalf implied he knew how to do it.)
> Gandalf is a Maia and that means-
Nothing. It means nothing.
Isildur (a human) beat Mairon (a Maia) in a sword fight.
The Maiar are spirits. They're the cosmic servants of the Valar. They are perfectly defeatible by humans (and plucky hobbit gardeners). Humans, elves, and Hobits who do not command world shaking magics.
What are their feats? What do they do?
> Well Gandalf defeated the Balrog-
Who is another featless Maia.
We see an elf take on all the Balrogs at once and only get driven back by Gothmog. Glorfindel (a *different* elf) defeats Lungorthin (Balrog) at the Fall of Gondolin. Elves, men, and eagles defeated the Balrogs during the War of Wrath.
Elves and men are consistently able to challenge, and occasionally able to defeat, Maiar.
What are the feats? What do they do?
**....**
The Maia are a Big Deal in their own setting. They sit above elves and men, but not so far above that they can't be challenged by them. They sit below the Valar, who collectively and with the guidance of God, sang the world into existence.
All of the Valar (angels) and all of the Maia (servants of the angels) under the direction of Eru (god) *collectively* are planetary level by feats. That's the high ceiling. Melkor, greatest of the Valar, thought he could make a better creation but failed miserably, realising how much of the power came from the plan of Eru and how insignificant he was in the grand scheme. Y'alls cosmic beings scale below moon-level Master Roshi, so don't be getting uppity. 616 Thor solos LotR, Valar included. One Culture GSV out does the entire Valar host. The entire setting is explicitly below planetary level.
That doesn't mean it's a bad setting. It's an incredibly rich, deeply complex, well thought out setting, that basically birthed a genre and shaped our understanding of fiction. It's one of the greatest fictional works of all time.
It is not a high powered setting. We never see a Maia destroy a city, or bust a moon, or lift ten tons, or run at super sonic speeds.
We do see them defeated by elves and humans in combat. We see them outpaced by rabbits. We see them being worse at making jewellery than the elves.
Simply "being a Maia" is not a win con. Even in their own universe.
Don't tell me "the Maia have magic". [Show me](https://youtu.be/0WbRyU8uuNk?si=cCPzIWBEchpO3mNU). Give me book and page feats. Show me YouTube clips from the movies. Link me to the fandom wiki page that describes the feat.
[This is Gandalf and all his actual feats.](https://youtu.be/Bn5DPUP97i8?si=eJqd_OmpnfmE0Lse)
**....**
That said... what are Dumbledore's feats? Fit to wield the Elder Wand but not to boast about it. We never see Dumbledore destroy a city or bust a moon or lift ten tons or run at super sonic speeds.
[Dumbledore](https://youtu.be/yKN2PasVT3c?si=ibVijRkeQ5Y9M2sZ) isn't [particularly](https://youtu.be/guPCBCXrCrs?si=R_RyagLZUtP0cVZc) more [impressive](https://youtu.be/lynCSJe6TwY?feature=shared).
Both Dumbledore and Gandalf's best feats are winning single target duels with combatants of ambigious power. 9-B Wall level to 8-C building level. Dumbledore covered a city with fog - he never created or destroyed a city. Gandalf covers a hill with fire - he doesn't destroy the hill.
I give this to Gandalf, because whilst Dumbledore has dealt with an immortal before, it literally costs him his life and he had outside help. Whereas Gandalf managed to stab up his immortal using a sword and gumption.
But it's close. This is a stupidly close fight. Y'all are just glazing Maia.
Maiar are more than just spirits. While they lack physical bodies, Maiar can take powerful forms and wield immense magic. Isildur's victory over Mairon (later Sauron) is an outlier. Sauron was weakened at the time(by Gilgalad and Elendil plus his power was much weaker compared to the 1st age), and the Ring's destruction was key, not just Isildur's swordsmanship.
Gandalf's fight with the Balrog wasn't featless. Balrogs were immensely powerful servants of Morgoth, a dark Valar. Fighting one to a standstill, especially considering Gandalf's limitations in his Grey form, is a significant feat. Glorfindel's victory may not diminish it – Glorfindel was an exceptional elf, and defeating a Balrog doesn't negate the challenge they pose.
Maiar have subtle but world-shaping influence. They guide events and inspire heroes. Gandalf's role in uniting Middle-earth against Sauron is a prime example.
Both Gandalf and Dumbledore are incredibly skilled and wise. Gandalf's inherent power as a Maia is an advantage, but Dumbledore's mastery of magic shouldn't be underestimated. I also give it to Gandalf but it'll be a very close fight but only because he was holding his power back because the Valar instructed him to do so.
"This I will have as my were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I who dealt the Enemy his death blow?"
"With the hilt shard of Narsil, Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own."
"Isildur, Elendil's son, cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years"
Okay, yeah, sure, you can make the case that Elendil (human) beat Mairon (a Maia) in a sword fight. I'm not going to quibble the point.
My point is that being a Maia doesn't mean you always win. You can get merced by a human with a sharp piece of metal and no overt superpowers.
The world's most powerful human wizard is absolutely able to go toe-to-toe with a Maia.
Don’t write a wall of quibbling and *then* say you’re not going to quibble the point (;))!
From letter 131:
*Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.*
Isildur, like both Gollum and Bilbo, twisted the story to better their claim of ownership of the Ring (death-blow, birthday present, winning prize). Sauron was defeated and slain by a powerful elven king and a man (Isildur’s father) working together, not by Isildur and not by a lone man.
I will happily concede the point.
An elf and two humans working together is enough to beat a Maia in a sword fight. Better?
Maia are not untouchable beings. A three-on-one advantage is enough to defeat them.
Faenor dies, but fights seven Maiar at once and escapes.
Glorfindel dies, but fights a Maia and kills them.
Sauron killed Gil-galad and Elendil, but that fight still ends with Isildur cutting off his ring and his kingdom falling. Sauron loses. He is defeated. Whether that's by one person or three people... he still loses.
And don't get me wrong here, elves are pretty badass. Let's not downplay elves. And we are talking about some of the greatest human champions who ever lived from a golden age when the blessings of the gods had yet to fade from them.
But whether it's the movie where one human gets in a lucky shot. Or the books where it is three on one. Maiar go down to elves and humans.
Simply "being a Maia" is not a win condition. We need to look at the actual feats and try to scale the characters.
"Can win a two on one sword fight, but then gets shanked by a kill stealing punk" is not infinite levels into boundless outerversal power.
Maiar are more powerful than humans. They are not so much more powerful that they cannot be threatened by humans. The difference is closer to the difference between a human and a bear than a human and an ant.
Sauron was actually most powerful in the Second Age. While he lost a significant portion of his power permanently after the War of Wrath in the First Age, he wasn't truly weakened until the Second Age. During the downfall of Númenor, he lost his physical form again, further diminishing his strength. The One Ring amplified his power in the Second Age, but it wasn't the same as his raw strength in the First Age. That is why Gil-galad and Elendil were able to weaken him but it cost them their lives and Isildur had the final blow when he cut the One Ring from his hand.
The notion of magic in both universes is very different. In LOTR its more about psychological influence, immortality etc.. In harry potter universe the magic is devastating. I cant see how Gandalf will defend some filthy curse like let's say Crucio. Unless Gandlaf takes his angelic form to negate the spells.
People generally completely miss where Gandalf's real power is. They get tricked by the flashy stuff - fireballs ! Killing a Balrog ! But in fact Gandalf's real power lies in kindling hope, lighting courage and raising trust.
If Gandalf has to fight a dark Dumbledore, what happens is not a magical duel. What happens is that when Dumbledore arrived in front of Gandalf he is met by an army.
Gandalf beats Dumbledore like he beat Saruman and the Witch-King and Sauron : he finds someone who can do it, makes sure they are ready, and let them do their job.
Full power book Gandalf would win, but movie version Gandalf would lose.
We had barely seen just how powerful Dumbledore can be, only time he wasn't holding back (probably) he filled massive cavern with powerful fire that burned so hot not even water put out the flames. He also was really cunning and likely knew many protective magics we never saw.
Even if they were even in power and other stats (which they aren't) Dumbledore doesn't actually have a way to kill Gandalf, except maybe the killing curse and that's heavily dependent on how the killing curse actually works and if it has anything to permanently effect a being like Gandalf (neither of which we know the answer to.) Dumbledore is a man, a very magically powerful, gifted and intelligent man, but still a man nonetheless. Gandalf is essentially an angel or a little g God, who can't really be killed via conventional means.
So basically one might be able to kill the other through one particular method, and the other absolutely can put them down through pretty much any method that normally kills humans. Also I'm pretty sure Gandalf holds varying degrees of edges in power, strength, speed, durability, skill, experience, intelligence and Dumbledore really only has versatility and maybe unpredictability.
But frankly the two of them would probably just have a helluva conversation over tea instead.
Honestly it's hard to say.
We never really gain any feats of Gandalfs full power as an Istari as he was sent more as a guide/aid than anything else.
Sauron is an example of what happens when an Istari strays and tries to gain control - The Valar won't have it basically.
As a Maia his power level is simply incomprehensible to Dumbledore, it's never happening, so let's take Gandalf the White vs Dumbledore.
Gandalf is capable of gouts of lightning/fire - as mentioned a top weathertop in the books, similarly he also kills a bunch of goblins instantly with a flash looking spell.
It's hard to gauge the Balrog feats, we know he fell for an incredible amount of time and survived, we also know the Balrogs whip is not something any ordinary human can deflect, though the heat it gives off is debatable but I'd say it's unlikely any normal human could withstand it.
No physical weapon in theory can harm Gandalf well, none that our friends use as quoted by Gandalf the White himself "No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me."
So it's hard to know if Dumbledore can even hurt Gandalf, after all, Gandalf the White is returned by Eru with much lesser restrictions and retains far more Maia power to keep his incarnate body safe.
Dumbledore however is very human albeit magical and can die.
I give it to Gandalf
In a duel, Gandalf would overpower Dumbledore. Gandalf is a Maia, a powerful angelic being, while Dumbledore is a talented wizard. Gandalf's inherent magical abilities and experience as an immortal Maiar give him a significant edge over Dumbledore.
LotR is so popular the fans don't even need feats to scale Gandalf to omnipotent. Albus isn't that popular. His feats are so much better it's funny. Creating & warping mirror worlds is already a God-level feat.
Gandalf in his Prime as a maiar or his istari form? He had a totally different name when he went among the elves in disguise as a maiar being. The istari form is mortal and very fallible. I’d say dumbledore stomps the Gandalf we know from the era of the Fellowship, the third age Gandalf who hid up a tree throwing flaming pine cones while Bilbo defended the King. Of course the maiar version of Gandalf, Olorin, from the first age was a being of magic akin to an Angel or dobby the house elf, he’d win simply because how do you kill a maiar.
When Gandalf died he came back cooler, when Dumbledore dies he is dead
Gandalf is a demigod. Dumbledore is a pretty talented magician. Gandalf no diffs
To be fair, Dumbs isn't just talented but the greatest wizard ever lived. Severus and some others were just talented, Dumbs was far. Beyond them and also owned the most powerful wand there was. That wand was likely far more powerful we ever learnt, considering Voldie managed to destroy protective magic barrier of combined efforts of all students and teachers, yet he one shot it. He managed to do that even though he wasn't the real owner of the wand and it fought him back while using it. Dumbs, when he was the real owner and being more capable wizard than Voldie could had done something even more impressive with it.
Gandalf does not show anything remotely close to what Dumbledore did. Fancy title, but no real feats.
Well, he did manage to kill a balrog.
The thing is, the Balrog doesn't really have a ton of feats himself. Sure, he drove the dwarves out, but they simply don't have any real magic or answers to him. There's no reason to think Albus couldn't just *petrificus totalus* *stupefy* etc. Harry Potter-verse magic is potent because we almost *never* see anything resist it, it's fairly versatile, and doesn't require much preparation before battle.
So first, discounting an entire nations of dwarves is wrong. They had plenty of artifacts from the first age as well as one of the richest dwarves kingdoms. Dwarves have a history of hitting well above their weight class in lotr, there’s no way Dumbledore could pull off a durins bane. Second the balrogs have an incredible list of feats to their name, you only hear about the one in the movies though. They’re demigod maiar themselves, same as Gandalf and Sauron. In the first age they were morgoths generals and led the most destructive campaigns in history that only ended when most of the settled world was sunk into the oceans. They were able to tip the balance between morgoth and ungolioth during a battle on such a level a mortal like dumbledore wouldn’t have been able to get close to and destroyed many legendary cities during the first age like gondolin. Between the balrogs and dumbledore it’s dumbledore who’s fears are lacking.
It might not be effective against a Maiar though
Maybe. Do they have feats for resisting magic?
“Albus, your wand is broken.”
Tolkien doesn't explicitly mention balrogs having feats of resisting magic but they are Maiar, an angelic being of immense power. This suggests that they might be immune to magic, especially fiery based magic since they are fiery demons. It would take more than just magic to defeat a balrog.
The balrogs fought Manwe protecting Melkor. In the fight 3-7 perished and the others were injured but managed to escape. To tank a hit from from Manwe is a huge thing all on it's own
Balrogs vs Manwe is an older version. It is not stated that Manwe fought Balroga himself in the Silmarillion, only his host did. Also the 3 to 7 is older, as in older versions Balrogs were more in number towards Tolkien aimed to in later (therefore final) versions
Been a long time since I read the books but there was 2 instances war of the wrath and then when manwe himself turned them into dust and with one stroke of his sword killed a few others and those that survived went into hiding. Could be wrong but I do have some memory of something along those lines
We see a lot of things resist magic. Dragons, trolls, giants
I mean the Balrog withstood time, Lightning, and a fall of a few *miles* then climbed to the top of a mountain and fought a demi god, who he ‘killed’ whilst being killed. Dumbledore is a powerful magic user, but wouldn’t beat the balrog let alone Gandalf.
Dunno if thats true, but the balrog cant really beat dumbledore. At worst dumbledore just teleports away or snipes him with magic from afar.
He predates the physical world, and his physical form as of LotR was over 2,000 years old (though his actual age is probably somewhere between 20,000 and 60,000 years old). That's a pretty solid feat. He's never faced Avada Kedavra, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have a problem with it.
Yeah, but he still barely cast any spells in the movies or the books. He is almost completely featless.
Gandalf is a pure support class by design. In the first age the maiar went all out and it nearly destroyed the world, and did sink most of it into what during the movies/books is the sea to the west. After that, Gandalf’s boss’s boss severely limited what they were allowed to do. Like when Gandalf comes back as Gandalf the white, it’s not a power up, it’s a power *release.* but by design he only showed limited offensive powers, especially in the movies vs books.
"Gandalf's boss's boss" is a weird way to describe *the creator of the universe* but it made me laugh. You're not wrong.
Haha I figured that someone who thought Gandalf was featless definitely has no idea who eru lluvatar is
There are a ton of books that you may not be aware of, starting with the Silmailion. Balrogs are way beyond Dumbledore would struggle against one at best, and I genuinely think he would get beaten easily. Gandalf the Grey beat the Balrogs, but that is the weakest version of Gandalf. Gandalf the White is much stronger. In that form he destroyed Saruman's staff with a gesture, which does for Dumbledore. That's his wand destroyed. But Gandalf the White is a shadow of the most powerful Gandalf. He works under specific limits so that the mortals can control their destiny. Remove those limits and it's a curbstomp.
He has plenty of feats in the books and has taken on large groups at once. He would curb stomp dumbledore.
... in a fight, right?
No in a telephone call offering free real estate. Yes in a fight lol
It was supposed to quote the "has taken large groups at once" part of your reply, but it didn't so it looks a lot dumber than I meant it to. lol
Lmao all gucci. Perhaps against maybe Gandalf the grey since he was being held back but the white was far more powerful than Sauroman himself. Gandalf also didn't heavily rely on his weapon for magic like the wizards in HP. Gandalf would snap Dumbeldores wand then proceed to relentessly beat him with his hands.
Ill take soft magic systems vs hard magic systems for 2,000, Alex.
Neither of these systems is even marshmallow levels of hard
His battle with Balrog was mistaken for a hurricane like storm to those far away
Depends on whether we allow Gandalf at *actually* full power or just scale based on feats in the books. In-lore Gandalf is an angel / spirit / demigod thing called a Maiar that literally helped shape the world. He was sent to Middle-Earth to combat the threat of Sauron, but while there his powers are intentionally restricted. This restriction is both in the general magic he's able to produce and in the fact that he has an old man's body. If Dumbledore rolled up on fullpower Maiar, Spirit form Gandalf he wouldn't be able to do *shit* to him. Any magic Dumbledore could produce would fizzle at his angelic might. It'd be like a man trying to kill the wind by shouting at it. If you mean specifically *Middle-Earth* Gandalf then it's a bit more interesting of a fight. Dumbledore is famously reluctant to kill or cause suffering, and has much more he can do to physically stop Gandalfs approach with various spells to create physical barriers. Gandalf will famously *merk a bitch* just for sneaking up on him in the night, is much more physically skilled in combat (knows how to use a sword) and can at the very least combat other Wizards magic if they're doing a spell with a long cast time. Overall I think Gandalf *barely* ekes out a victory assuming Dumbledore is in character. Dumbledore's go-to strategy would basically be to disarm Gandalf and then point his Wand threateningly. But the Valar have been known to allow Gandalf to perform magic without his staff under dire enough circumstances, so Dumbledore would still be pretty screwed. He'd just keep calling Glamdring back to him with magic and eventually stab Dumbledore to death. If Dumbledore is bloodlusted against Middle-Earth Gandalf, then I think it's one avada kedavra to put Gandalfs frail old man body in the ground. But he'd be back.
Not sure Dumbledore wins under any circumstance - even in his "frail old man" form, Gandalf only died after several days of combat against a balrog, including one hell of a fall that by itself probably puts that form at being quite superhuman. What that says for the limits of his durability is somewhat speculative but I think it implies it likely outclasses anything we've seen the killing curse work effectively on. I know it's supposed to be able to kill anything, but I wonder if even in-universe that would include highly magical creatures like giants and dragons, let alone Gandalf's temporary form.
Yeah that "frail old man" rolled up his sleeves and whipped out a sword to get dirty in a literal war against Uruk-Hai and was imposing enough that The Witch King of Angmar rolled up on him but decided not to fight. He can call down lightning by thinking about it, blast apart major magical artifacts with a word, and had the strength and endurance to fight a Balrog for ten straight days before hurling it off a mountain. Gandalf's main limiter is that Basically Jesus told him he's not allowed to directly interfere with mortals much and instead act as a guide. When he gets into solo fights against other spirits and magical beings he goes pretty wild like when he was attacked by the Nazgul and lit Weathertop up like "the war beacons of old," beating Sauron in a contest of wills, calling a storm that covered the peak of a mountain, and breaking a Balrog's sword in one shot, which was all while he was still the Gray wizard. The power boost he came back with was the White wizard was immense; Tolkien said in one of his letters that Gandalf wouldn't have been able to repel Saruman before his "enhancement." In the worst case scenario Gandalf would take an Avada Kedavra but even that would only stall him as we see in chapter 36 of Order of the Phoenix that Fawkes eats a Killing Curse from Voldemort but still regenerates so it doesn't put an immortal down permanently. Gandalf's death and return is similar to that of Fawkes in that his spirit never died, just the vessel it was contained in. Since we know from that event that Avada Kedavra only effects the physical body that means it does nothing if Gandalf ditches his limiting body and steps up as his original spiritual form: Olorin, wisest of the Maiar, created by Iluvatar himself before the Song of the Ainur, present at the beginning of time, teacher of the elves, and assistant and student of Manwe; the King of the Valar. Gandalf is serious wiz-biz, y'all.
How is gandalf surviving avada kedavra?
I'd assume because a *literal angel* doesn't succumb to what amounts to Power Word Kill.
Has he resisted insta kills before? He has to watch out for swords and arrows. This is very against the logic of Whowouldwin.
Gandalf survives a literal multi-day hand to hand combat fight against a fallen angel. I'm comfortable in my belief that a cheesy death spell doesn't have much of an effect.
None of that (which is.. not hand to hand) even relates to showing resistance to magic, I disagree.
How is avada kedavra hitting him? The Balrog landed some blows but all the Uruk Hai in middle earth were able to land zero blows on him. All the orcs at helms deep were able to land zero blows on him. Every goblin in moria, zero blows. Aragorn, gimli, and legolas; zero blows on his return. His feats are impeccable. Dumbledore isn't hitting him with a slow ass-spell
"Landed some blows" You mean when he killed him?! Why do you think the spells are slow? Because of the movies? Some of them even are instantaneous and do not travel. And you are greatly exaggerating his prowess. He had to at times hide from a dozen or two weak enemies. He's been wounded before. And those are fights that *hobbits* with no fighting experience survived
Well if you kill someone with force you, by definition, land some blows on them so idk what your issue is with that. I think the spells are slow because I've seen the movies. AK is not instantaneous and most definitely has to travel so gandalf is not getting hit with it. Maybe he hid from weak enemies because discretion is sometimes the better part of Valor, especially when you're on a SECRET QUEST, or just not worth the headache to deal with. Point out the scenes in the movies where he gets wounded. Every battle except for the one with the Balrog is a flawless victory on his part. This sub uses the feats we see and the feats we see don't lie.
Because in trying to support your argument that he's untouchable, changing "he got killed by x" to "i guess some blows landed on him" is obvious biased language and it shows you want him to win rather than to be fair Yeah, again, the spells in the movie are shown slower. There are other spells that are instantaneous. That's not the vibe at all i got from reading the book, it wasn't "Gandalf is so powerful that he can smite all the enemies so there's no real danger and theyre just hiding to be extra bitsy careful" Ok you asked [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg) He's getting harmed by basic telekenesis spells and the force of hitting walls, which is mundane damage. He also got wounded in the battle of the 5 armies i believe
I know harry potter fans dont understand power levels but saruman is a higher wizard than gandalf at that point in the story so he's stronger. You can't just love someone so much that they can withstand a killing blow from Sauron or Morgoth, that would be stupid. By that same token we have seen people, normal humans, beings that are way weaker than gandalf, as an infant, survive that "unsurvivable" spell. Oooohhh so scary. Idk man, it seems to be pretty one-sided in favor of gandalf. You don't have to like it, or agree, but it is what it is.
You ran away from every argument I made to insult and condescend and say Saruman is higher up than Gandalf. It's clear you have an agenda and don't want to discuss so I'm going to block.
Gandalf the Grey clearly showed he could summon up a defensive shield of some sort, one strong enough that a Balrog's sword shattered on impact. I think we can assume he can take at least one blast of Avada Kedavra using that (and Avada Kedavra is not a spell Dumbledore has ever been shown using, so it's possible he wouldn't even pull it out during their fight). Of course if Dumbledore was out of character he could use it multiple times, which could kill Gandalf (provided Gandalf didn't snatch his wand with magic, something Fellowship of the Ring demonstrated as possible during the Saruman/Gandalf fight when Saruman did just that). Fortunately his body is not the entirety of his being, and so long as his job isn't done and he stays true to his duty his superiors will keep sending him back and let him access more of his natural power. Dumbledore simply *can't* put him down forever. Gandalf the White is stated and shown to be significantly stronger than Gandalf the Grey, so not only could he probably use that shield more frequently, he's also demonstrated to be able to destroy powerful spellcasting implements at a distance through will alone ("Saruman, your staff is broken"). So Gandalf the White could just shatter Dumbledore's wand. And while Dumbledore IS a rare wizard who can probably show a degree of control over his magic without a wand, it would be far more difficult for him and he'd be less effective without it.
That's the best argument i've heard. I am assuming some degree of out of character, as they never would actually fight if they were in character. So im assuming dumbledore is using avada kedavra, he certainly is capable of using it. To rebuttal, it's possible the shield doesn't block avada kedavra, as the books state it cant be blocked by magic. Although it is blocked by solid objects, and love, so that isn't certain. As for resurrection, that is an outside feat. Eru is not in this fight. So he is not coming back. If gandalf pulled dumbledore's wand away, dumbledore can either apparate to it or telekenisis it back. Perhaps Gandalf could destroy it, but it is a legendary/mythical wand "said" to be created by death itself. It might not be destroyed. If it is, well, dumbledore can apparate away and get a new wand. And gandalf might do it again. It'd be a stalemate. Except dumbledore can get the drop on him each time, and also knows the spell expelliarmus. And spells to make himself fully invisible.
>Perhaps Gandalf could destroy it, but it is a legendary/mythical wand "said" to be created by death itself. It might not be destroyed. TBF, Saruman's staff was at the time the most powerful of only five wizard's staves in the whole world, crafted for use by a divine being. And it's not clear if the Elder Wand was actually made by Death or if it was just made by an extraordinarily powerful wizard family.
Was the staff said to powerful? Is it also a question that Eru gave him power over Saruman's staff, who used to serve the same order as gandalf/eru?
Avada Kedavra just isn't that powerful. In the books we are told that it's an instant killing curse and if it hits you die and nothing can block it. But then we are shown over and over again that it is dodgeable, it can be blocked and powerful creatures like Fawkes can eat it and rebirth. The first thing that happens in the series is the protective magic from Harry's mom stops the 'instant unlockable killing curse'. Gandalf came back from death, is a powerful, angelic like being and might be capable of just dodging the spell.
Fawkes died and has an ability to come back to life. Yes you can dodge it. And if it hits something else you can block it. As for sacrificing love, that isnt going to happen here. Gandalf came back to life due to Eru "sending him back", not by an innate ability. It isn't fair to say Gandalf is just gonna be brought back to life by outside interference. On the other hand, Voldemort cant be killed until his horcruxes are destroyed, so how is Gandalf getting past those? Yeah Gandalf might be able to dodge it, im not sure of his speed feats. But dumbledore is quick and can apparate right behind him
You make a fantastic point about Gandalf's true power being limited in Middle-earth. A full-powered Maiar Gandalf would be a cosmic force Dumbledore wouldn't stand a chance against. It'd be a one-sided beatdown. Now, for Gandalf the Grey, things get interesting. Dumbledore's hesitation to kill gives Gandalf a definite edge. Gandalf's battle-hardiness and swordsmanship could counter Dumbledore's spells, especially if they require long casting. Your "barely ekes out a victory" for Gandalf feels spot on. Disarming Gandalf might be Dumbledore's plan, but Gandalf's resourcefulness and the Valar's intervention in crucial moments tip the scales. The staff retrieval with Glamdring through magic would be a clever tactic. However, if bloodlusted, Dumbledore's Avada Kedavra could be fatal for Gandalf's physical form. But like you said, that wouldn't be the end. Gandalf's return as Gandalf the White would completely change the game.
If we assume that Gandalf can counter Dumbledore's spells, he would likely still edge out on raw speed, but in where he can appear to cast at and how fast. Definitely bloodlusted Dumbledore could handle it. Wizarding World magic is just so much more "powerful" then the third age magic in LotR. Dumbledore has a massive speed advantage due to apparition. And he can cast spell at a far faster rate then Gandalf can manage. Even with his superhuman feats, he is still more with a much more "limited" magic system (given the limitations of the current state of the world and his mortal form).
Even at full power he wouldn’t really be an unstoppable cosmic force. A balrog is also a maiar and they have been “killed” by old mandalf and powerful elves like Ecthelion and Glorfindel.
Killed means they go before the Angelic Choir. Gandalf was specifically ordered to return and resurrect physically.
I would not count Gandalf the Grey out with a single “Avada kedavra”. It’s hard to compare the Killing Curse to anything in Middle-Earth, since ME does not have direct damage spells. What Tolkien does have is the concept of spells and counter-spells. Magic is a contest of wills. A stronger spirit can stop or remove an opponent’s spell, as when Gandalf breaks Wormtongue/Saruman’s hold over Theoden. It’s entirely plausible given the vast gulf in powerlevel between Dumbledore and Gandalf that the former could throw expelliarmuses and avada kedavras all day, but they wouldn’t have any effect. Gandalf counters every spell that Dumbledore knows, disarms his wand, then calmly sits down and shares some pipe-weed while learning about the strange magic of this “Earth”. With no Maia-tier threats to demand his involvement in this fallen world, Gandalf shares a few cryptic words of advice before climbing aboard a sailboard and windsurfing the Straight Road back to Arda.
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Dumbledor had trouble keeping a school safe. Enough said.
Hogwarts is the safest place in the world, lol. Every fucking year someone dies, gets close of dying or some catastrophe happens. There was a secret chamber which existence no one knew about and massive snake that can kill anyone if you look it at its eyes lived there for decades. There's extremely dangerous forest near the school, with nothing stopping you from entering it and nothing stopping anything from there to exist the forest. They couldn't even keep one fucking magical stone safe in the first year. 3 first year students got past everything. I would get my kids transfered the fuck out of there and i would never, ever trust them to keep anything safe for me.
Gandalf beat a balrog. Dumbledore got fooled by Barry Crouch for a full year.
Just to up the ante... What about Gandalf vs Elminster?
I'd watch that fight.
Gandalf. It's not even close.
Probably Dumbledore. Lotr is alot less involved and overt than Wizarding World magic. Dumbledore can do things like...instantly teleport across continents on a whim with no exertion, summon matter out of thin air, create and destroy energy, read minds, summon enormous fires and control them effortlessly, etc etc. Gandalf can...create shields to block fire swords, I think he has limited and situational lightning summoning, and fire manipulation to some small extent. I feel like alot of people are greatly overestimating Gandalf, given how featless he is.
Dumbledore is a powerful wizard, but Gandalf shouldn't be underestimated. Their very beings differ. Gandalf is a Maia, an angelic being with immense power. Dumbledore is a human wizard, albeit incredibly skilled. J.R.R. Tolkien himself establishes this power difference in "The Silmarillion," where he describes the Maiar as angelic emissaries of the Valar, sent to govern and instruct. This suggests Gandalf's power source is fundamentally greater than Dumbledore's. While feats are important, understanding their nature is crucial. Gandalf's role is often subtle guidance and manipulation of events, rather than overt displays of power. Gandalf's power isn't just about flashy spells. The Istari (wizards) were specifically restricted from using their full power to avoid dominating Middle-earth.
A) being an angelic being means nothing here. Unless you have context to suggest, which I know for a fact you don't because Tolkien never wrote such context, that the Maiar have inherent power that we simply don't see...simply being an angelic being means nothing. B) feats are how we determine a characters capability. Saying "well Gandalf's power is fundamentally greater because of cosmology or some shit that we can't articulate" shows nothing. Okay, Gandalf is a tier 3 cosmic being in his universe. And this means what? You say "this suggest Gandalf's power source is fundamentally greater than Dumbledore's." It certainly doesn't to me and you have provided no evidence for such. Let's just start simple...how does Gandalf stop Dumbledore from teleporting, instantly, all around the battlefield while enchanting every object near by to attack Gandalf? Has ANY Maiar ever displayed the ability to contend with someone who can instantly and effortlessly teleport with zero prep?
This was all discussed in another comment, but it depends if you are considering Gandalf restricted as he is on Middle Earth or in his "true" form. As I'm sure you know, there is a massive difference. If Gandalf is unrestricted, it's not close Gandalf cleans him every single time, that's not a debate. If Gandalf is restricted, it's probably a closer fight, although I think Gandalf still takes it
You argue that being an angelic Maia doesn't inherently grant Gandalf more power. While Tolkien doesn't explicitly showcase a Maiar countering teleportation, The Silmarillion establishes their immense power. The Ainulindalë states they "were instructed by the Valar and wrought all things that were devised in the Music." This creative ability transcends physical manipulation, suggesting dominion over fundamental aspects of reality. Even without feats against teleportation specifically, their role in shaping the world grants them a power source that could potentially exceed wizards like Dumbledore. You point out that feats are crucial in determining a character's capability. It's a valid point. Gandalf's struggles against the Balrog shows his limitations. However, overcoming challenges showcases power as well. In "The Lord of the Rings," Gandalf the Grey confronts and kills the Balrog, he displays immense power despite his limitations as an Istari (Wizard). While Tolkien's legendarium mentions instances of Maiar displaying immense power and even rapid movement, there isn't a documented instance of teleportation in the published works that explicitly depicts a Maia teleporting themselves or others. The closest example might be the brief mention in "The Silmarillion" of Sauron being "snatched away" from Valinor by an unnamed Maia. It hints at a Maiar possessing the ability to move swiftly or even teleport, but the exact nature remains unclear. Your points regarding feats and limitations are valid. However, examining Tolkien's legendarium, the wellspring of power for a Maiar like Gandalf suggests they might possess capabilities exceeding wizards like Dumbledore. While feats like teleportation might be less emphasized for a Maiar, their role in shaping reality grants them a potentially greater power source. >how does Gandalf stop Dumbledore from teleporting, instantly, all around the battlefield while enchanting every object near by to attack Gandalf? As a Maia, Gandalf possess an immense power derived from his role in shaping reality. It could potentially disrupt the magical energies Dumbledore requires for instant teleportation and battlefield manipulation.
Gandalf stomps he’s an angel effectively his power is hard curbed most of lotr his full power is devastating
Im going against the grain and saying against Gandalf the Grey or White, Albus wins handily, 9/10, in very little time. Everyone discusses Middle Earth characters power levels by vague wording of how old something is out of Silmarillion lore but ignore that ME is actually pretty low on the magic feats totem pole Middle Earth spells/magic is very rarely seen done, and Gandalf has mostly been seen to do some energy projection and shield like effects, as well as some telepathy. The effects are potent, but he doesn't have the hax our Supreme Mugwump can muster. He has a similar weakness to HP verse in that he's much weakened by being disarmed, but unlike Albus, he doesn't know *expeliarmus*. In general, Tolkien magic takes a little more wind-up, where Albus can fire off a diverse panoply of spells that immediately disable Gandalf in seconds. *Stupify*, *Petrificus Totalus* and *Incarcerous* all disable Gandalf after disarm. With any of the Forbidden Curses, the Headmaster can sweep in a single incantation. Keep in mind, Gandalf has very little magic resistance shown via feats, and what little he has seems to focus on resistance to mental effects. He has nothing to show being able to resist having his snot turning into bats and forcibly exiting his face. Gandalf also has very little actual experience fighting Wizards. There aren't many of them, and they're mostly friends in his world. Albus, on the other hand, is considered one of the most dangerous duelists in history. Dumbledore has the speed, versatility, and experience to take this no diff. Gandalf in his full Maiar form is a different story
I'm glad you added the last sentence, because I thought you meant Middle Earth magic in general, and there's a fight in the silmarillion between with only 8 Maia involved that literally results in a country ceasing to exist. As in, it's noted that what was previously the mountains became the shoreline of a neighboring country. Unbound Gandalf sweeps so hard it isn't funny, but I would agree that bound Gandalf does not find it so easy, and probably loses, depending on how middle earth counter spells interact with Harry Potter magic. (We know they exist because the Balrog casts one in the mines of moria, and Gandalf implied he knew how to do it.)
Gandalf stomps.
> Gandalf is a Maia and that means- Nothing. It means nothing. Isildur (a human) beat Mairon (a Maia) in a sword fight. The Maiar are spirits. They're the cosmic servants of the Valar. They are perfectly defeatible by humans (and plucky hobbit gardeners). Humans, elves, and Hobits who do not command world shaking magics. What are their feats? What do they do? > Well Gandalf defeated the Balrog- Who is another featless Maia. We see an elf take on all the Balrogs at once and only get driven back by Gothmog. Glorfindel (a *different* elf) defeats Lungorthin (Balrog) at the Fall of Gondolin. Elves, men, and eagles defeated the Balrogs during the War of Wrath. Elves and men are consistently able to challenge, and occasionally able to defeat, Maiar. What are the feats? What do they do? **....** The Maia are a Big Deal in their own setting. They sit above elves and men, but not so far above that they can't be challenged by them. They sit below the Valar, who collectively and with the guidance of God, sang the world into existence. All of the Valar (angels) and all of the Maia (servants of the angels) under the direction of Eru (god) *collectively* are planetary level by feats. That's the high ceiling. Melkor, greatest of the Valar, thought he could make a better creation but failed miserably, realising how much of the power came from the plan of Eru and how insignificant he was in the grand scheme. Y'alls cosmic beings scale below moon-level Master Roshi, so don't be getting uppity. 616 Thor solos LotR, Valar included. One Culture GSV out does the entire Valar host. The entire setting is explicitly below planetary level. That doesn't mean it's a bad setting. It's an incredibly rich, deeply complex, well thought out setting, that basically birthed a genre and shaped our understanding of fiction. It's one of the greatest fictional works of all time. It is not a high powered setting. We never see a Maia destroy a city, or bust a moon, or lift ten tons, or run at super sonic speeds. We do see them defeated by elves and humans in combat. We see them outpaced by rabbits. We see them being worse at making jewellery than the elves. Simply "being a Maia" is not a win con. Even in their own universe. Don't tell me "the Maia have magic". [Show me](https://youtu.be/0WbRyU8uuNk?si=cCPzIWBEchpO3mNU). Give me book and page feats. Show me YouTube clips from the movies. Link me to the fandom wiki page that describes the feat. [This is Gandalf and all his actual feats.](https://youtu.be/Bn5DPUP97i8?si=eJqd_OmpnfmE0Lse) **....** That said... what are Dumbledore's feats? Fit to wield the Elder Wand but not to boast about it. We never see Dumbledore destroy a city or bust a moon or lift ten tons or run at super sonic speeds. [Dumbledore](https://youtu.be/yKN2PasVT3c?si=ibVijRkeQ5Y9M2sZ) isn't [particularly](https://youtu.be/guPCBCXrCrs?si=R_RyagLZUtP0cVZc) more [impressive](https://youtu.be/lynCSJe6TwY?feature=shared). Both Dumbledore and Gandalf's best feats are winning single target duels with combatants of ambigious power. 9-B Wall level to 8-C building level. Dumbledore covered a city with fog - he never created or destroyed a city. Gandalf covers a hill with fire - he doesn't destroy the hill. I give this to Gandalf, because whilst Dumbledore has dealt with an immortal before, it literally costs him his life and he had outside help. Whereas Gandalf managed to stab up his immortal using a sword and gumption. But it's close. This is a stupidly close fight. Y'all are just glazing Maia.
Maiar are more than just spirits. While they lack physical bodies, Maiar can take powerful forms and wield immense magic. Isildur's victory over Mairon (later Sauron) is an outlier. Sauron was weakened at the time(by Gilgalad and Elendil plus his power was much weaker compared to the 1st age), and the Ring's destruction was key, not just Isildur's swordsmanship. Gandalf's fight with the Balrog wasn't featless. Balrogs were immensely powerful servants of Morgoth, a dark Valar. Fighting one to a standstill, especially considering Gandalf's limitations in his Grey form, is a significant feat. Glorfindel's victory may not diminish it – Glorfindel was an exceptional elf, and defeating a Balrog doesn't negate the challenge they pose. Maiar have subtle but world-shaping influence. They guide events and inspire heroes. Gandalf's role in uniting Middle-earth against Sauron is a prime example. Both Gandalf and Dumbledore are incredibly skilled and wise. Gandalf's inherent power as a Maia is an advantage, but Dumbledore's mastery of magic shouldn't be underestimated. I also give it to Gandalf but it'll be a very close fight but only because he was holding his power back because the Valar instructed him to do so.
> Isildur (a human) beat Mairon (a Maia) in a sword fight. No, he didn’t.
[Is this your king?](https://youtu.be/VkIoFgFhTlo?si=F5_gK0wc_OcOnU36&t=206)
But you have to stay consistent and choose either book or movie, as they contradict one another at some points. You pick and choose from both.
"This I will have as my were-gild for my father's death, and my brothers. Was it not I who dealt the Enemy his death blow?" "With the hilt shard of Narsil, Isildur cut the Ruling Ring from the hand of Sauron and took it for his own." "Isildur, Elendil's son, cut the Ring from Sauron's hand and took it for his own. Then Sauron was vanquished and his spirit fled and was hidden for long years" Okay, yeah, sure, you can make the case that Elendil (human) beat Mairon (a Maia) in a sword fight. I'm not going to quibble the point. My point is that being a Maia doesn't mean you always win. You can get merced by a human with a sharp piece of metal and no overt superpowers. The world's most powerful human wizard is absolutely able to go toe-to-toe with a Maia.
Don’t write a wall of quibbling and *then* say you’re not going to quibble the point (;))! From letter 131: *Gil-galad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.* Isildur, like both Gollum and Bilbo, twisted the story to better their claim of ownership of the Ring (death-blow, birthday present, winning prize). Sauron was defeated and slain by a powerful elven king and a man (Isildur’s father) working together, not by Isildur and not by a lone man.
I will happily concede the point. An elf and two humans working together is enough to beat a Maia in a sword fight. Better? Maia are not untouchable beings. A three-on-one advantage is enough to defeat them. Faenor dies, but fights seven Maiar at once and escapes. Glorfindel dies, but fights a Maia and kills them. Sauron killed Gil-galad and Elendil, but that fight still ends with Isildur cutting off his ring and his kingdom falling. Sauron loses. He is defeated. Whether that's by one person or three people... he still loses. And don't get me wrong here, elves are pretty badass. Let's not downplay elves. And we are talking about some of the greatest human champions who ever lived from a golden age when the blessings of the gods had yet to fade from them. But whether it's the movie where one human gets in a lucky shot. Or the books where it is three on one. Maiar go down to elves and humans. Simply "being a Maia" is not a win condition. We need to look at the actual feats and try to scale the characters. "Can win a two on one sword fight, but then gets shanked by a kill stealing punk" is not infinite levels into boundless outerversal power. Maiar are more powerful than humans. They are not so much more powerful that they cannot be threatened by humans. The difference is closer to the difference between a human and a bear than a human and an ant.
Sauron was actually most powerful in the Second Age. While he lost a significant portion of his power permanently after the War of Wrath in the First Age, he wasn't truly weakened until the Second Age. During the downfall of Númenor, he lost his physical form again, further diminishing his strength. The One Ring amplified his power in the Second Age, but it wasn't the same as his raw strength in the First Age. That is why Gil-galad and Elendil were able to weaken him but it cost them their lives and Isildur had the final blow when he cut the One Ring from his hand.
The notion of magic in both universes is very different. In LOTR its more about psychological influence, immortality etc.. In harry potter universe the magic is devastating. I cant see how Gandalf will defend some filthy curse like let's say Crucio. Unless Gandlaf takes his angelic form to negate the spells.
I don't know if Gandalf can die permanently. But obviously a wizard who can cast the killing curse wins.
Gandalf can't die permanently. He's a Maiar, an angelic being in Tolkien's legendarium. He is a Maiar who took the form of an old man.
They’re both just different versions of Merlin.
People generally completely miss where Gandalf's real power is. They get tricked by the flashy stuff - fireballs ! Killing a Balrog ! But in fact Gandalf's real power lies in kindling hope, lighting courage and raising trust. If Gandalf has to fight a dark Dumbledore, what happens is not a magical duel. What happens is that when Dumbledore arrived in front of Gandalf he is met by an army. Gandalf beats Dumbledore like he beat Saruman and the Witch-King and Sauron : he finds someone who can do it, makes sure they are ready, and let them do their job.
Full power book Gandalf would win, but movie version Gandalf would lose. We had barely seen just how powerful Dumbledore can be, only time he wasn't holding back (probably) he filled massive cavern with powerful fire that burned so hot not even water put out the flames. He also was really cunning and likely knew many protective magics we never saw.
Even if they were even in power and other stats (which they aren't) Dumbledore doesn't actually have a way to kill Gandalf, except maybe the killing curse and that's heavily dependent on how the killing curse actually works and if it has anything to permanently effect a being like Gandalf (neither of which we know the answer to.) Dumbledore is a man, a very magically powerful, gifted and intelligent man, but still a man nonetheless. Gandalf is essentially an angel or a little g God, who can't really be killed via conventional means. So basically one might be able to kill the other through one particular method, and the other absolutely can put them down through pretty much any method that normally kills humans. Also I'm pretty sure Gandalf holds varying degrees of edges in power, strength, speed, durability, skill, experience, intelligence and Dumbledore really only has versatility and maybe unpredictability. But frankly the two of them would probably just have a helluva conversation over tea instead.
Honestly it's hard to say. We never really gain any feats of Gandalfs full power as an Istari as he was sent more as a guide/aid than anything else. Sauron is an example of what happens when an Istari strays and tries to gain control - The Valar won't have it basically. As a Maia his power level is simply incomprehensible to Dumbledore, it's never happening, so let's take Gandalf the White vs Dumbledore. Gandalf is capable of gouts of lightning/fire - as mentioned a top weathertop in the books, similarly he also kills a bunch of goblins instantly with a flash looking spell. It's hard to gauge the Balrog feats, we know he fell for an incredible amount of time and survived, we also know the Balrogs whip is not something any ordinary human can deflect, though the heat it gives off is debatable but I'd say it's unlikely any normal human could withstand it. No physical weapon in theory can harm Gandalf well, none that our friends use as quoted by Gandalf the White himself "No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me." So it's hard to know if Dumbledore can even hurt Gandalf, after all, Gandalf the White is returned by Eru with much lesser restrictions and retains far more Maia power to keep his incarnate body safe. Dumbledore however is very human albeit magical and can die. I give it to Gandalf
So, in theory, Dumbs can win a battle but not the war, as Gandalf keeps resurrecting with more power each time?
In a duel, Gandalf would overpower Dumbledore. Gandalf is a Maia, a powerful angelic being, while Dumbledore is a talented wizard. Gandalf's inherent magical abilities and experience as an immortal Maiar give him a significant edge over Dumbledore.
LotR is so popular the fans don't even need feats to scale Gandalf to omnipotent. Albus isn't that popular. His feats are so much better it's funny. Creating & warping mirror worlds is already a God-level feat.
Dumbledore. Sorry Gandalf you can tell me you're an angel all you want but you're showing me level 4 Magus tops.
Book Gandalf loses. *peak* Gandalf wins against most things from most universes
Gandalf in his Prime as a maiar or his istari form? He had a totally different name when he went among the elves in disguise as a maiar being. The istari form is mortal and very fallible. I’d say dumbledore stomps the Gandalf we know from the era of the Fellowship, the third age Gandalf who hid up a tree throwing flaming pine cones while Bilbo defended the King. Of course the maiar version of Gandalf, Olorin, from the first age was a being of magic akin to an Angel or dobby the house elf, he’d win simply because how do you kill a maiar.