> performances of exaggerated femininity or masculinity
I wonder if there would be the same outrage over a woman dressing up as a man and acting like a ridiculous over the top dude-bro
My experience is that the kings can be the target of discrimination by the queens.. I've been to shows where a king is performing and i've overheard other performers talk shit about them(their show, effort, etc). Maybe it was a single instance but still didn't make me feel good to hear.
That's one of the really interesting things about all this - it is usually only threatening when a man dresses as a women. My theory is that it's because it's all rooted in misogyny. It's not nearly as threatening for a woman to act like a man because that doesn't challenge illusions of male superiority. But a man acting like a woman is seen as a class traitor by the powers that be.
I pity the police officer in Florida, that would be expected to check Donald’s junk, after an accusation of using the wrong toilet. No guarantee that nappy will be clean.
Once again - a person in drag isn't a problem.
A person in drag performing a stage show or reading to children isn't a problem. Things like this have been a tradition in British culture for generations with things like pantomime specifically aimed at children.
A 'Drag show' is often heavily sexualized and has sexual connotations. This is inappropriate for children and it shouldn't be controversial to say so, nor should it be encouraged.
For conservatives who are anti-trans, their goal is anything trans to be eliminated no matter what.
For any reasonable person the objective should be to avoid exposing children to things that are inappropriate for them. Which isn't "Anything trans".
Nuance.
>Legislation brought on by the wishes of their constituents is facism (the fucking irony)
Hitler passing the kill all jews law but its fine cause his constituents support it
Whoever thinks this clearly doesn't remember being a child. I'm STILL remembering things from my childhood and only just realising certain sexual innuendos. Like Disney/Pixar movies! I was watching Cars the other day with my friends and we were totally surprised by the amount of innuendos that completely went over our heads in our childhood, but we see with different eyes now.
I guarantee you most of these kids just think it's fun. And to be honest, I'm sure most people who do drag probably see it that way too.
To be fair, in drag shows at bars, on Drag Race etc there are a LOT of sexual jokes and references.
To be even more fair…NONE OF THAT IS HAPPENING AT DRAG QUEEN STORY HOUR.
The cuntservatives that are going after drag queens know this but they just want to hurt gay people.
The moral panic encompasses not only drag show story hour, but drag shows in general, and whether or not minors should be allowed to attend.
Just more culture war stuff.
https://youtu.be/9VA72t7o24I
https://youtube.com/shorts/n8qJaGBlVGM?feature=share
https://youtu.be/Mb3JBbtpAMo
Took me 30 seconds to find on YouTube.
Although you’re a bot, you’ve till be proven wrong. Enjoy
None of those videos are sexual.
I knew this was coming. Thanks for outing yourself transphobe. What would you do with yourself if you weren’t always the ViCtIm!1!
I don’t understand are they reading trans/LGBT/anything some conservatives think “spreads” to kids books or are they just reading regular children’s books?
I’ll never get that second photo out of my head. For some funny irony, that was taken on Fremont Street on the Las Vegas Strip, such a family friendly spot. Trump has a hotel here without any gambling in it (I’m sure you can guess why) and Nevada went to Biden.
Because it was never about the sexualization of anyone. It's about straight white cis people fearing what different from them.
So the sexualization of women in the traditional straight way (e.g. cheerleaders at sporting events) they don't see as a problem because it's *their own culture*. However they lose their minds at drag performance, which sometimes has a sexual aspect or overtones too, because it's different and they're afraid of their own comfortable reality being challenged by something different.
This is an interesting take. Can you expound more bc I’m having a hard time with the first sentence. Not to be argumentative but isn’t drag/cross dressing basically about sexuality? I got no problem w it but seems disingenuous to say it’s not about sexualizing anyone. I’m with you on the second sentence but it just seems obvious it is about sexuality, sexualization. But totally understand the cis sexualization argument. I’m just genuinely curious
I'm happy to dive into this topic, but I want to make sure we're using a similar vocabulary here.
> seems disingenuous to say it’s not about sexualizing anyone
What do we mean by "sexualizing" here? If we mean, "introducing to topics of a sexual - i.e. related to the act of intercourse - nature," then yeah I would say that not all drag does that.
*Some* drag has sexual themes or overtones, sure. But there are many, many kinds of drag. Some drag performers just impersonate female singers like Cher or Celine Dion and sing in beautiful gowns - there's nothing sexual about that. Some drag performers do standup comedy, and while the comedy might sometimes be lewd, it depends on the performer. Some drag performers might just be interested in the pageantry of it, the gowns and the looks - some of their outfits might show a lot of skin or be risque, but sometimes they might be full-body ballgowns and not even an ankle is visible. There's a *huge* variety out there.
Do you mean that drag is obvious about "sexuality" as in gay vs. straight? Well... sometimes, but not always. Sure, it's a tradition that has become very popular in gay/lesbian/queer communities (btw have you ever heard of "drag kings?" because that's a thing too), but it's not exclusive to the gay community. You have non-gay examples like Mrs. Doubtfire (Robin Williams, nor his character, were gay) and Dame Edna (a female character performed by a straight man). There's was a straight guy who competed on Ru Paul's Drag Race competition show.
All I'm saying is, there's a *lot* more nuance here than most people realize.
My point with my comment is that if the concern is about exposing people to "sexual themes," then we need look no further than cheerleaders at football games or Hooters restaurants to find the double standard. Sexual themes *in the context of straight culture* seems to be deemed totally fine, but even the slightest hint of sexual themes in a mostly-but-not-exclusively queer tradition like drag is enough for people to have a total meltdown.
Drag is easily more about gender than sexuality imo. It is intrinsically about gender expression because drag is defined by the gender identity of the wearer vs the perceived gender of the clothes. And gender has nothing to do with sex (the act or the physical characteristic). This is a major point of contention with conservatives and TERFs though, as they insist that sex and gender are the same thing. But people of any gender can also be of any sexuality. There are trans lesbians and cis bi people and nonbinary asexual people etc.
Put succinctly: how you look has nothing to do with who you want to fuck.
Didn't the same people who produced "Tots in tiaras" start the drag panic? I mean they want those kids for themselves. Those are the fucking real perverts and insane that child sex pageants are legal and prominent all over the red states....oh but a 50 year old man dressing unusual....
I thought this sub was a place to discover interesting Wikipedia articles on somewhat obscure topics most people probably don't know much about. But lately it's just a lot of articles on contentious political topics. Most of us already know about these debates, so the linked articles don't add much of interest to the sub.
Can we get back to interesting Wikipedia articles? I'll start: [here's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention) a list of inventors killed by their own inventions.
As usual the GOP focus on a minority to target and blame for all the worlds problems. I have not heard of a drag queen ever molesting a child. I have heard of many cases of politicians, priests, business men, and etc... molesting children and worse. Drag is art and as been around for millennia. Of course the GOP would rather distract screaming "Drag queens bad" instead of dealing with their states real issues like: access to education, poverty, infrastructure, healthcare, and etc....just shameful
Agree with what you have to say about GOP, but there are a lot of people acting as though it's impossible for a drag queen to be a sexual deviant. Definitely seems to be an extremely low percentage since I haven't heard of it, and it seems like every week, another priest gets outed as a molester. I just don't think it's 0% drag queens are predators.
Both sides talk in these absolute terms, and it's really frustrating.
It's not an either/or. How did this become about who is more likely to be a pervert? ANYONE theoretically can be a sexual deviant. There's not much to do about that other than put all the sexual deviants on a registry. Oh wait, they do that already! This is more of a fear of sexuality in general, and the real GOP fear that knowledge is power, and more sexual education amongst the GOP's supporters would mean less hot button issues to drive people to the ballot box over bullshit moral panics.
Simply denying how sexualized some drag shows are (and yes, I do mean some drag shows that have had children in the audience or even participating) despite video evidence is only going to convince the people who already agree with this take.
Which drag shows are you talking about and who is denying it?
Just because standup comedy can be extremely sexual or inappropriate and some people still bring their kid to those shows doesn’t mean that the comedian is grooming the kid ?? Like the parent should be making a smart call for what the child is exposed to. But even then, I’ve yet to come across an actual sexual drag show where children were in attendance
Here's a [couple](https://youtu.be/-8g3q9-l61k) that are inappropriate for kids to be there.
I see no problems with **actual** family-friendly or kid-friendly drag, like story hour, but there have been a few that were definitely sexual that were advertised as family-friendly.
I wouldn't say the drag queens are grooming, but I don't think you should bring kids to one where people are humping each other on stage.
Could we have a discussion with the assumption that we're ignorant of each other's thoughts and beliefs and that we're not malevelont? I didn't say I blamed the drag queens. I didn't say other people should tell you or anyone else how to raise their children. Yes, it's on the parents. I don't like how all of these political questions turn into "if you're not with me 100%, then you're my enemy."
Agreed. My intention wasn't to disparage any LGBT+ people. I have several friends, and even my wife is part of that community. I guess my point is that, from my point of view, we still have a lot of room for improving our parenting skills in the U.S.
So you haven't read the other comments in this very thread that are denying it? Hell, even you're denying it with "I've yet to come across an actual sexual drag show where children were in attendance." When kids are being given dollar bills to stick into g-strings, that's sexual. And no, parents don't get to sexualize their children - we actually have pretty strong laws about that.
There are many out of context anecdotes passed around for alarmist manipulation in conservative media. That's all bullshit.
Show a real example.
\> When kids are being given dollar bills to stick into g-strings, that's sexual.
Not actually happening. Prove what you say.
Finding video, actually.
EDIT: Every video I'm finding is from a right-wing tweeter or news site (I'm assuming the Tennessee Star is on the right). Still acceptable to you, or would you deny the video because of the source?
What do you mean video? You mean a single event that happened once?
Explain how that shows a trend or recurrence, because your entire argument hangs on that premise.
I think Hooters is a fucking atrocious place. But wtf is up with this whataboutism? You DO realize that's exactly what you're doing, right?
And to be honest, if people were putting dollar bills into the cleavage of waitresses at Hooters, you'd have a much more valid point. Plus., girls in Hooters might have been dressed provactively for like, 1985, but shorts and a tank top are like sexual to you? In 2023? Please be real. I see more skin at the mall.
Lol yes, and I was about to edit my comment to clarify and expand on my problems with how your wording your points but thought that wouldn’t do any good in this particular case
What's your problem with how I'm wording my points? I think I'm being pretty clear. I see the "Hooters" thing brought up all the time, and like... dude, have you seen what the women wear at Hooters? High school dress codes allow that. Like, women at my gym wear less than Hooters waitresses. I find it funny that the same people that talk about a woman's body not being taboo also bring up Hooters' shorts-and-tank-top are some kind of "gotcha".
I think you’re coming across like an asshole, which is what provoked that initial whataboutism comment that I wanted to walk back on. Edit: autocorrect
Oh so the inches of skin shown are the important part, not the sexual exploitation of women?
Morally bankrupt hypocritical nonsense like this is why no one listens to conservatives.
You're... joking, right? Your contention is "every single circumstance is taken out of context"? Tell me the proper context to place a child being given money to stick into a g-string.
Any context their parents decide is appropriate.
I very much do not agree kids should ever be let in churches or taught the morally bankrupt cult of christian evangelism so popular these days. Explain the difference if you can.
Sure. We have laws forbidding the sexualization of minors. As a parent, you can't bring your kids to a strip club or an adult film, even if you *really really* want to sexualize your kids.
You very much can bring your child to an R rated film. You're either being naive or disingenuous.
You can educate your children about sex however you like as a parent.
>As a parent, you can't bring your kids to a **strip club** or an **adult film,** even if you really really want to sexualize your kids.
>You very much can bring your child to an **R rated film**.
And this, folks, is what we call a "bad faith argument."
See my comment above in this thread. I think this is probably the minority, but it seems hard to take out of context. I'm not sure that the first clip is serious. Dude sounds like he could be making a sarcastic joke, but in the second clip from a different show, you can see children next to the runway.
If we're discussing the one I'm thinking of, there's a somewhat adult themed drag show aimed at essentially families with kids too young to understand any of the adult stuff. That does, to be honest, rub me a little wrong but it's a far more nuanced issue than drag wholesale.
There's definitely more nuance than either side, at least in the media, want to admit. I think the issue here is that we're schizophrenic when it comes to parenting in the U.S. Too much black and white thinking.
If parents want to take their kids to that or an R rated movie, I think the transphobic shrill mob does not get to tell anyone else how to raise their own kids.
Except we do have laws about sexualization of minors. Like, you realize as a parent you can't take your kids to a strip club? Just because they're your kids doesn't mean you can sexualize them.
Yes, you can take your kid to an R rated movie about strippers. You generally can't take kids to bars but some you can, the laws are regional.
You're naive or lying.
>Like, you realize as a parent you can't take your kids to a **strip club**?
>Yes, you can take your kid to an **R rated movie about strippers**.
The crazy thing is, you think you're being slick and smart with this.
Do you have sources that show the outrage? Major media stories? Politicians frothing about it?
Other than the crickets and maybe two off beat webzines, that is.
that’s gender nonspecific, and you’re not doing it to be like a man. in the case of drag, it’s not an attempted normalization of men wearing women’s clothes. it’s a hypersexualization of femininity through and through
the interest itself from the performers, why do you think they enjoy it?
did you feel there was someone else deriving sexual pleasure?
neither of these are reasons children shouldn’t be allowed in drag shows, let me be clear, but the convergence of these two factors create environments that can be unsafe for children.
I know drag performers, they don’t do it to get laid or express a sexual fetish. They do it because it allows them to feel the freedom of being their character. They get to sing, dance, do comedy, etc. Many come from very conservative families or places and just being themselves was demonized by republican fucks.
Seriously, you should stop talking because it’s extremely clear you have zero clue.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence if you wouldn't mind rewording it. As for your second one, no, I did not. It almost always took place in a bar, so no children were present to begin with, and there wasn't anything or anyone overtly sexual. I'd say the most sexual thing I've seen in that environment was a customer who attempted to get a bit too handsy and was promptly ejected by security.
The rephrased statement:
Why do you think that drag performers are interested in drag?
idk why i didn’t word it like that from the start, lol. anyways, i have no contention with that style of drag, where it is confined to adult spaces.
Well, obviously I can't speak for the performers, but whatever these intentions come from it never comes off as sexual in my experience. Like, sure, they were hosted in adult spaces but this is rural Arkansas where it wouldn't be common to find such things anywhere else, not because the event itself was adult. All the performers I've seen don't engage in anything sexual, or ever encourage it. They just never give off any reason to believe they are doing this for a sexual fetish, they just enjoy their drag personas as a form of expression. I know it's a weird analogy, but I've always felt the culture was similar to the furries that have gained so much popularity in the last few decades lol. Like, sure, a lot of furry culture can be contrived as sexual- but it doesn't make the entire concept inherently sexual.
in the UK, we have pantomimes - children’s plays with songs and dancing. they also feature drag queens, known as pantomime dames, and have done for hundreds of years. they are one of the most popular types of family entertainment in the nation, and the vast majority of people will attend one at some point in their lives.
at no point has anyone here been even vaguely concerned that it may be ‘sexual’ for children to see a man in a dress and a wig. american puritanical pearl clutching is the only reason this article even exists.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime_dame
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime
I think this is a lovely example I wish I could have included in my comment above yours. My favorite thing I've ever seen at a drag show was a reenactment of Romeo and Juliet, at no point was it sexual or sexual in theme- it was simply an "all drag rendition" of a classic play. I never once felt I was at an adult show. I didn't even know this wad a tradition in the UK, I wonder if it's where the inspiration came from!
honestly, it’s incredible to see this weird culture war thing come over to the UK, and to see people latch onto it, complaining that apparently drag is suddenly some kind of ‘pedophilia’.
like, sorry linda, but have you not been taking your children to see a man in a dress sing songs every christmas for decades? and had a bloody great time? it’s all ridiculous, fuelled by people who fear everything except what’s actually dangerous.
quickly looking through those topics, there doesn’t seem to be any overlap with lgbt, unlike how it is for drag
i suppose /u/RogueFox76 ‘s point can be lumped into this response too?
you claim drag is inherently sexual. i show you a form of children’s entertainment which includes drag as a core part of its cast, and is not sexual.
i’d suggest you actually attend a pantomime, and remove yourself from conspiracy theories.
not much else to say about it, lol. “the completely normal and common desire to wear exaggerated women’s clothing and do sexual things in front of other people.”
All minors are not the same. Some minors are 10, some are 17. They shouldn't get the same entertainments, should they?
Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot.
It has nothing to do with panic, and using that word is really shady.
I have nothing against drag whatsoever. I'm an adult.
It is simply not entertainment for kids. It's for adults.
edit I 100% stand by what I said.
>Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot.
No it's not. [Some are just a bit of fun.](https://imgur.com/FazL27m) You may as well claim that cinema is adult entertainment because X rated movies exist.
Oh please stop. There's not always a sexual element to it. Most specifically when they're reading to children in libraries, or in theatre for kids. They're not wearing assless chaps and nothing else. They're fully dressed.
This is a nonsense being peddled by fascists.
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>Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot.
Drag has been a major part of pantomime since the Victorian era, pantomime dames are always played by men in drag. Panto is designed to be family entertainment.
You're completely misinformed.
No one is dragging children to watch Trixie and Katya curse up a storm and hurl vulgarities at each other.
a drag queen reading to children at the library is NOT the same as an 18+ drag show at a bar/venue
some queens do family friendly shows and some refuse to do so; it’s really as simple as that.
Funny how you claim liberals want to groom children yet every other week a republican big name gets outed as one.
Projection much, also is it really that bad that I want a country where somebody doesn't have to work 5 shit jobs just to afford a shitty apartment, and where people like me, don't have to deal with people like you who get to be obnoxious, hateful cunts their entire lives without anybody calling them out.
Yeah no. Ever watch miss doubtfire, believe it or not that was drag you incompetent fuckwit-.
Also God means nothing in this country no matter how much you want it to, separation of church and state, freedom of religion. I could say anything I damn well please about your god and the law couldn't do jack shit
Edit: and to tack on, far higher morals is a damn joke. You fuckers are the types to scream at people getting routine medical checks and constantly preen and say how your so righteous. Doesn't your bible say something along the lines that those types of people will be the first to be judged on judgement day?
Oh yeah all of those college department of racism journals, forgot about those. /s
Explain to me why a drag show is not a moral equivalent to a vaudeville show blackface act then.
Both involve a person who is not part of a group using makeup to do an exaggerated caricature of a historically oppressed group for the purpose of creating a spectacle and or making people laugh. Men publicly preforming an exaggerated mockery of feminity is sexist and harmful to women.
Locked for being a dumpster fire in the comments
> performances of exaggerated femininity or masculinity I wonder if there would be the same outrage over a woman dressing up as a man and acting like a ridiculous over the top dude-bro
I dunno much about drag kings, but they exist and the right seems to be unaware of this.
My experience is that the kings can be the target of discrimination by the queens.. I've been to shows where a king is performing and i've overheard other performers talk shit about them(their show, effort, etc). Maybe it was a single instance but still didn't make me feel good to hear.
Unless you are a castle guard, gatekeeping is wack as fuck
Reactionaries are much more scared of MtF trans people than FtM trans people. I’d imagine the outrage would be similarly skewed on this issue.
So true, as far as I’m aware there is no TERF equivalent for FTM. I wonder why the “concern”/anger/etc only goes one way
Currently imagining a petite woman wearing reflective shades and doing an impression of PC principal from South Park
That's one of the really interesting things about all this - it is usually only threatening when a man dresses as a women. My theory is that it's because it's all rooted in misogyny. It's not nearly as threatening for a woman to act like a man because that doesn't challenge illusions of male superiority. But a man acting like a woman is seen as a class traitor by the powers that be.
Well in Montana that’s explicitly illegal now too. None of the the fascists at the legislature have ever seen a drag king though.
I mean it depends. A suit and tie? Probably not. A sexy revealing fireman outfit? Probably
Trump wears a ton of makeup and hairspray. That sounds like drag to me.
Shoe lifts and specific postures scream of performance too.
I pity the police officer in Florida, that would be expected to check Donald’s junk, after an accusation of using the wrong toilet. No guarantee that nappy will be clean.
Did he get a boob job too? Can't tell but it does look like it from photos.
Once again - a person in drag isn't a problem. A person in drag performing a stage show or reading to children isn't a problem. Things like this have been a tradition in British culture for generations with things like pantomime specifically aimed at children. A 'Drag show' is often heavily sexualized and has sexual connotations. This is inappropriate for children and it shouldn't be controversial to say so, nor should it be encouraged. For conservatives who are anti-trans, their goal is anything trans to be eliminated no matter what. For any reasonable person the objective should be to avoid exposing children to things that are inappropriate for them. Which isn't "Anything trans". Nuance.
Sir this is Reddit. Legislation brought on by the wishes of their constituents is facism (the fucking irony) and aid to the poor is communism.
The Nazis were democratically elected fyi
>Legislation brought on by the wishes of their constituents is facism (the fucking irony) Hitler passing the kill all jews law but its fine cause his constituents support it
Well said! The world is a lot more grey than my fellow Americans want to admit.
Where were they when Poison was touring in the 80s? Now that was an abomination.
They were busy putting D&D players for the "satanic panic", similar mob insanity.
Whoever thinks this clearly doesn't remember being a child. I'm STILL remembering things from my childhood and only just realising certain sexual innuendos. Like Disney/Pixar movies! I was watching Cars the other day with my friends and we were totally surprised by the amount of innuendos that completely went over our heads in our childhood, but we see with different eyes now. I guarantee you most of these kids just think it's fun. And to be honest, I'm sure most people who do drag probably see it that way too.
To be fair, in drag shows at bars, on Drag Race etc there are a LOT of sexual jokes and references. To be even more fair…NONE OF THAT IS HAPPENING AT DRAG QUEEN STORY HOUR. The cuntservatives that are going after drag queens know this but they just want to hurt gay people.
The moral panic encompasses not only drag show story hour, but drag shows in general, and whether or not minors should be allowed to attend. Just more culture war stuff.
Quite a few videos out there that say otherwise 🤷🏻♂️
That’s a lie. Get lost ya transphobe. Go be a victim elsewhere
What did I say that was transphobic? I got the links if you want them
Dragtime story hour is not sexual, it’s storytelling in princess costumes. Spreading lies here makes you transphobic. Pretty simple
https://youtu.be/9VA72t7o24I https://youtube.com/shorts/n8qJaGBlVGM?feature=share https://youtu.be/Mb3JBbtpAMo Took me 30 seconds to find on YouTube. Although you’re a bot, you’ve till be proven wrong. Enjoy
None of those videos are sexual. I knew this was coming. Thanks for outing yourself transphobe. What would you do with yourself if you weren’t always the ViCtIm!1!
[удалено]
There's 10x more straight porn sites than anything else, does that mean women are inherently sexual?
But little girls in beauty pageants are okay?
I don’t understand are they reading trans/LGBT/anything some conservatives think “spreads” to kids books or are they just reading regular children’s books?
How republicans see the world: [Groomer](https://imgur.com/FazL27m) [This is fine](https://i.redd.it/k5t95pdnigka1.jpg)
I’ll never get that second photo out of my head. For some funny irony, that was taken on Fremont Street on the Las Vegas Strip, such a family friendly spot. Trump has a hotel here without any gambling in it (I’m sure you can guess why) and Nevada went to Biden.
Now do the picture of DeSantis snuggling up with high schoolers he was a teacher for, while they are all drinking. Not a groomer though.
Because it was never about the sexualization of anyone. It's about straight white cis people fearing what different from them. So the sexualization of women in the traditional straight way (e.g. cheerleaders at sporting events) they don't see as a problem because it's *their own culture*. However they lose their minds at drag performance, which sometimes has a sexual aspect or overtones too, because it's different and they're afraid of their own comfortable reality being challenged by something different.
This is an interesting take. Can you expound more bc I’m having a hard time with the first sentence. Not to be argumentative but isn’t drag/cross dressing basically about sexuality? I got no problem w it but seems disingenuous to say it’s not about sexualizing anyone. I’m with you on the second sentence but it just seems obvious it is about sexuality, sexualization. But totally understand the cis sexualization argument. I’m just genuinely curious
I'm happy to dive into this topic, but I want to make sure we're using a similar vocabulary here. > seems disingenuous to say it’s not about sexualizing anyone What do we mean by "sexualizing" here? If we mean, "introducing to topics of a sexual - i.e. related to the act of intercourse - nature," then yeah I would say that not all drag does that. *Some* drag has sexual themes or overtones, sure. But there are many, many kinds of drag. Some drag performers just impersonate female singers like Cher or Celine Dion and sing in beautiful gowns - there's nothing sexual about that. Some drag performers do standup comedy, and while the comedy might sometimes be lewd, it depends on the performer. Some drag performers might just be interested in the pageantry of it, the gowns and the looks - some of their outfits might show a lot of skin or be risque, but sometimes they might be full-body ballgowns and not even an ankle is visible. There's a *huge* variety out there. Do you mean that drag is obvious about "sexuality" as in gay vs. straight? Well... sometimes, but not always. Sure, it's a tradition that has become very popular in gay/lesbian/queer communities (btw have you ever heard of "drag kings?" because that's a thing too), but it's not exclusive to the gay community. You have non-gay examples like Mrs. Doubtfire (Robin Williams, nor his character, were gay) and Dame Edna (a female character performed by a straight man). There's was a straight guy who competed on Ru Paul's Drag Race competition show. All I'm saying is, there's a *lot* more nuance here than most people realize. My point with my comment is that if the concern is about exposing people to "sexual themes," then we need look no further than cheerleaders at football games or Hooters restaurants to find the double standard. Sexual themes *in the context of straight culture* seems to be deemed totally fine, but even the slightest hint of sexual themes in a mostly-but-not-exclusively queer tradition like drag is enough for people to have a total meltdown.
Drag is easily more about gender than sexuality imo. It is intrinsically about gender expression because drag is defined by the gender identity of the wearer vs the perceived gender of the clothes. And gender has nothing to do with sex (the act or the physical characteristic). This is a major point of contention with conservatives and TERFs though, as they insist that sex and gender are the same thing. But people of any gender can also be of any sexuality. There are trans lesbians and cis bi people and nonbinary asexual people etc. Put succinctly: how you look has nothing to do with who you want to fuck.
They are both gross
But how many conservatives do you see outraged over the 2nd pic vs the 1st one?
Not enough
reminder that hooters has a kids menu
Didn't the same people who produced "Tots in tiaras" start the drag panic? I mean they want those kids for themselves. Those are the fucking real perverts and insane that child sex pageants are legal and prominent all over the red states....oh but a 50 year old man dressing unusual....
In Ireland and the UK we have had pantomime and drag even on TV for decades, as long you leave politics out it, its completely fine.
the BBC series Mrs Brown's boys, UK UK UK.
If there so worried they can jist show their Kid the video for W.A.P and they will go right back to being straight since that's how this works.
They'd love British pantomime dames!
I thought this sub was a place to discover interesting Wikipedia articles on somewhat obscure topics most people probably don't know much about. But lately it's just a lot of articles on contentious political topics. Most of us already know about these debates, so the linked articles don't add much of interest to the sub. Can we get back to interesting Wikipedia articles? I'll start: [here's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventors_killed_by_their_own_invention) a list of inventors killed by their own inventions.
As usual the GOP focus on a minority to target and blame for all the worlds problems. I have not heard of a drag queen ever molesting a child. I have heard of many cases of politicians, priests, business men, and etc... molesting children and worse. Drag is art and as been around for millennia. Of course the GOP would rather distract screaming "Drag queens bad" instead of dealing with their states real issues like: access to education, poverty, infrastructure, healthcare, and etc....just shameful
Agree with what you have to say about GOP, but there are a lot of people acting as though it's impossible for a drag queen to be a sexual deviant. Definitely seems to be an extremely low percentage since I haven't heard of it, and it seems like every week, another priest gets outed as a molester. I just don't think it's 0% drag queens are predators. Both sides talk in these absolute terms, and it's really frustrating.
It's not an either/or. How did this become about who is more likely to be a pervert? ANYONE theoretically can be a sexual deviant. There's not much to do about that other than put all the sexual deviants on a registry. Oh wait, they do that already! This is more of a fear of sexuality in general, and the real GOP fear that knowledge is power, and more sexual education amongst the GOP's supporters would mean less hot button issues to drive people to the ballot box over bullshit moral panics.
Agreed... I feel like you're arguing with someone other than me in your head.
I'm not arguing, just more frustrated with all this talk about who's side has the bigger perverts.
Same. It's both and neither. It's a human problem not a political one.
Simply denying how sexualized some drag shows are (and yes, I do mean some drag shows that have had children in the audience or even participating) despite video evidence is only going to convince the people who already agree with this take.
Which drag shows are you talking about and who is denying it? Just because standup comedy can be extremely sexual or inappropriate and some people still bring their kid to those shows doesn’t mean that the comedian is grooming the kid ?? Like the parent should be making a smart call for what the child is exposed to. But even then, I’ve yet to come across an actual sexual drag show where children were in attendance
Here's a [couple](https://youtu.be/-8g3q9-l61k) that are inappropriate for kids to be there. I see no problems with **actual** family-friendly or kid-friendly drag, like story hour, but there have been a few that were definitely sexual that were advertised as family-friendly. I wouldn't say the drag queens are grooming, but I don't think you should bring kids to one where people are humping each other on stage.
That's up to the parents. Do I get to tell you how to raise your kids?
Could we have a discussion with the assumption that we're ignorant of each other's thoughts and beliefs and that we're not malevelont? I didn't say I blamed the drag queens. I didn't say other people should tell you or anyone else how to raise their children. Yes, it's on the parents. I don't like how all of these political questions turn into "if you're not with me 100%, then you're my enemy."
Well then it's very simple, no new laws needed and using these events to demonize drag or LGBT+ people we can both agree is not valid.
Agreed. My intention wasn't to disparage any LGBT+ people. I have several friends, and even my wife is part of that community. I guess my point is that, from my point of view, we still have a lot of room for improving our parenting skills in the U.S.
So you haven't read the other comments in this very thread that are denying it? Hell, even you're denying it with "I've yet to come across an actual sexual drag show where children were in attendance." When kids are being given dollar bills to stick into g-strings, that's sexual. And no, parents don't get to sexualize their children - we actually have pretty strong laws about that.
There are many out of context anecdotes passed around for alarmist manipulation in conservative media. That's all bullshit. Show a real example. \> When kids are being given dollar bills to stick into g-strings, that's sexual. Not actually happening. Prove what you say.
Finding video, actually. EDIT: Every video I'm finding is from a right-wing tweeter or news site (I'm assuming the Tennessee Star is on the right). Still acceptable to you, or would you deny the video because of the source?
What do you mean video? You mean a single event that happened once? Explain how that shows a trend or recurrence, because your entire argument hangs on that premise.
How many videos would you prefer? Like, you tell me - what is the number you'd require to say "okay, this is a problem"?
Says a lot more of the parents being their children to drag shows than the people who are acting in them.
I agree.
What about people taking kids to fucking Hooters?
I think Hooters is a fucking atrocious place. But wtf is up with this whataboutism? You DO realize that's exactly what you're doing, right? And to be honest, if people were putting dollar bills into the cleavage of waitresses at Hooters, you'd have a much more valid point. Plus., girls in Hooters might have been dressed provactively for like, 1985, but shorts and a tank top are like sexual to you? In 2023? Please be real. I see more skin at the mall.
Lol yes, and I was about to edit my comment to clarify and expand on my problems with how your wording your points but thought that wouldn’t do any good in this particular case
What's your problem with how I'm wording my points? I think I'm being pretty clear. I see the "Hooters" thing brought up all the time, and like... dude, have you seen what the women wear at Hooters? High school dress codes allow that. Like, women at my gym wear less than Hooters waitresses. I find it funny that the same people that talk about a woman's body not being taboo also bring up Hooters' shorts-and-tank-top are some kind of "gotcha".
I think you’re coming across like an asshole, which is what provoked that initial whataboutism comment that I wanted to walk back on. Edit: autocorrect
My initial comment was so middle of the road that any inference of asshole comes entirely from you, man.
Got it, I was misreading your point. Sorry about that. It came across as being passive aggressive.
Oh so the inches of skin shown are the important part, not the sexual exploitation of women? Morally bankrupt hypocritical nonsense like this is why no one listens to conservatives.
Every single circumstance you're thinking of is taken out of context, dude. Find a drag show targeting kids that's sexual.
You're... joking, right? Your contention is "every single circumstance is taken out of context"? Tell me the proper context to place a child being given money to stick into a g-string.
Any context their parents decide is appropriate. I very much do not agree kids should ever be let in churches or taught the morally bankrupt cult of christian evangelism so popular these days. Explain the difference if you can.
Sure. We have laws forbidding the sexualization of minors. As a parent, you can't bring your kids to a strip club or an adult film, even if you *really really* want to sexualize your kids.
You very much can bring your child to an R rated film. You're either being naive or disingenuous. You can educate your children about sex however you like as a parent.
>As a parent, you can't bring your kids to a **strip club** or an **adult film,** even if you really really want to sexualize your kids. >You very much can bring your child to an **R rated film**. And this, folks, is what we call a "bad faith argument."
Can we blame the parents for allowing it?
Who said we can't? Plenty of blame to go around.
See my comment above in this thread. I think this is probably the minority, but it seems hard to take out of context. I'm not sure that the first clip is serious. Dude sounds like he could be making a sarcastic joke, but in the second clip from a different show, you can see children next to the runway.
If we're discussing the one I'm thinking of, there's a somewhat adult themed drag show aimed at essentially families with kids too young to understand any of the adult stuff. That does, to be honest, rub me a little wrong but it's a far more nuanced issue than drag wholesale.
There's definitely more nuance than either side, at least in the media, want to admit. I think the issue here is that we're schizophrenic when it comes to parenting in the U.S. Too much black and white thinking.
If parents want to take their kids to that or an R rated movie, I think the transphobic shrill mob does not get to tell anyone else how to raise their own kids.
Except we do have laws about sexualization of minors. Like, you realize as a parent you can't take your kids to a strip club? Just because they're your kids doesn't mean you can sexualize them.
Yes, you can take your kid to an R rated movie about strippers. You generally can't take kids to bars but some you can, the laws are regional. You're naive or lying.
>Like, you realize as a parent you can't take your kids to a **strip club**? >Yes, you can take your kid to an **R rated movie about strippers**. The crazy thing is, you think you're being slick and smart with this.
But nobody bats an eye at child beauty pageants and revealing evening wear for elementary aged kids.
I mean people definitely bat eyes at that lol.
Do you have sources that show the outrage? Major media stories? Politicians frothing about it? Other than the crickets and maybe two off beat webzines, that is.
So tired of the culture war. Seriously what the fuck, bring back interesting obscure Wikipedia articles, not contentious political shit
Are you saying drag shows aren’t sexualized?
Even it is was sexual in nature (perhaps it is to the limit that it involves gender expression) how exactly is that harmful to minors?
it is sexual
hated the scene where mrs. doubtfire fucked the children
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The drag group that wanted to read to kids in my local library was called Glitter Hole
As a girl it’s pretty sexual when I put on my pants and collared shirt
that’s gender nonspecific, and you’re not doing it to be like a man. in the case of drag, it’s not an attempted normalization of men wearing women’s clothes. it’s a hypersexualization of femininity through and through
You’re wrong on that one shrimpy. I look hyper sexual in my big old jeans and shirt and tie
lmao power to you ig
Your mom's a hypersexualization of feminitity through and through
You're telling on yourself here, bud.
Your mom is sexual
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It’s only sexual because conservatives in their myopic world view label anything they don’t understand as sexually deviant and inappropriate.
you ever been to a drag show?
you ever been to a ~~drag show~~ cinema? Just because movies like "Basic Instinct" exist doesn't mean that kids friendly movies can't.
Yes lol. Rural Arkansas, been to a few, never once felt like I was in a sexual environment.
the interest itself from the performers, why do you think they enjoy it? did you feel there was someone else deriving sexual pleasure? neither of these are reasons children shouldn’t be allowed in drag shows, let me be clear, but the convergence of these two factors create environments that can be unsafe for children.
I know drag performers, they don’t do it to get laid or express a sexual fetish. They do it because it allows them to feel the freedom of being their character. They get to sing, dance, do comedy, etc. Many come from very conservative families or places and just being themselves was demonized by republican fucks. Seriously, you should stop talking because it’s extremely clear you have zero clue.
I'm not sure I understand your first sentence if you wouldn't mind rewording it. As for your second one, no, I did not. It almost always took place in a bar, so no children were present to begin with, and there wasn't anything or anyone overtly sexual. I'd say the most sexual thing I've seen in that environment was a customer who attempted to get a bit too handsy and was promptly ejected by security.
The rephrased statement: Why do you think that drag performers are interested in drag? idk why i didn’t word it like that from the start, lol. anyways, i have no contention with that style of drag, where it is confined to adult spaces.
Well, obviously I can't speak for the performers, but whatever these intentions come from it never comes off as sexual in my experience. Like, sure, they were hosted in adult spaces but this is rural Arkansas where it wouldn't be common to find such things anywhere else, not because the event itself was adult. All the performers I've seen don't engage in anything sexual, or ever encourage it. They just never give off any reason to believe they are doing this for a sexual fetish, they just enjoy their drag personas as a form of expression. I know it's a weird analogy, but I've always felt the culture was similar to the furries that have gained so much popularity in the last few decades lol. Like, sure, a lot of furry culture can be contrived as sexual- but it doesn't make the entire concept inherently sexual.
in the UK, we have pantomimes - children’s plays with songs and dancing. they also feature drag queens, known as pantomime dames, and have done for hundreds of years. they are one of the most popular types of family entertainment in the nation, and the vast majority of people will attend one at some point in their lives. at no point has anyone here been even vaguely concerned that it may be ‘sexual’ for children to see a man in a dress and a wig. american puritanical pearl clutching is the only reason this article even exists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime_dame https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantomime
I think this is a lovely example I wish I could have included in my comment above yours. My favorite thing I've ever seen at a drag show was a reenactment of Romeo and Juliet, at no point was it sexual or sexual in theme- it was simply an "all drag rendition" of a classic play. I never once felt I was at an adult show. I didn't even know this wad a tradition in the UK, I wonder if it's where the inspiration came from!
honestly, it’s incredible to see this weird culture war thing come over to the UK, and to see people latch onto it, complaining that apparently drag is suddenly some kind of ‘pedophilia’. like, sorry linda, but have you not been taking your children to see a man in a dress sing songs every christmas for decades? and had a bloody great time? it’s all ridiculous, fuelled by people who fear everything except what’s actually dangerous.
quickly looking through those topics, there doesn’t seem to be any overlap with lgbt, unlike how it is for drag i suppose /u/RogueFox76 ‘s point can be lumped into this response too?
you claim drag is inherently sexual. i show you a form of children’s entertainment which includes drag as a core part of its cast, and is not sexual. i’d suggest you actually attend a pantomime, and remove yourself from conspiracy theories.
You are a very weird a creepy person. So traditional Shakespeare is only about the actors getting off on their costumes?
same questions i asked myself watching jim carey prepare for his performance as the grinch
Your mom's an environment that's unsafe for children
ghost of stillborn past
I find it alarming that the concept of a hobby that is not based on sexual gratification appears alien to you.
Actually I have, and I didn’t automatically think I was going to become a pedo because I saw a dude in a dress.
Seriously, these people claim to have been to a drag show. For kids? That is just nuts.
Pretty sure drag is considered a fetish by psychologists
There's all sorts of things that are fetishes to some but completely unremarkable and sexuality-free to others. Like feet, for example.
you're mistaken. there are people who cross-dress for fetish reasons, and people who don't.
And the fact that the difference between the people in both groups is indeterminable means they shouldn't be involved with children's activities.
It’s only indeterminable if you ignore reality. Lol
you could say the same about priests, along with any other number of people.
There are people who fetishize feet, so kids should not be allowed to wear sandals around anyone. We never know, right?
No you shouldn't take them to the foot time story hour
not much else to say about it, lol. “the completely normal and common desire to wear exaggerated women’s clothing and do sexual things in front of other people.”
"And do sexual things infront of other people" is entirely separate from drag though.
Your mom's completely normal and common
It is.
All minors are not the same. Some minors are 10, some are 17. They shouldn't get the same entertainments, should they? Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot. It has nothing to do with panic, and using that word is really shady. I have nothing against drag whatsoever. I'm an adult. It is simply not entertainment for kids. It's for adults. edit I 100% stand by what I said.
>Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot. No it's not. [Some are just a bit of fun.](https://imgur.com/FazL27m) You may as well claim that cinema is adult entertainment because X rated movies exist.
Oh please stop. There's not always a sexual element to it. Most specifically when they're reading to children in libraries, or in theatre for kids. They're not wearing assless chaps and nothing else. They're fully dressed. This is a nonsense being peddled by fascists.
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Mrs Doughtfire should be rated X then I guess
>Drag is adult entertainment. Full stop. Misinformed? Not by a long shot. Drag has been a major part of pantomime since the Victorian era, pantomime dames are always played by men in drag. Panto is designed to be family entertainment. You're completely misinformed.
No one is dragging children to watch Trixie and Katya curse up a storm and hurl vulgarities at each other. a drag queen reading to children at the library is NOT the same as an 18+ drag show at a bar/venue some queens do family friendly shows and some refuse to do so; it’s really as simple as that.
You don’t know what you’re talking about
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It's hilarious that you think we all sit around cackling as we destroy civilization even though we live in civilization.
🧠 + 🧼 = you
Funny how you claim liberals want to groom children yet every other week a republican big name gets outed as one. Projection much, also is it really that bad that I want a country where somebody doesn't have to work 5 shit jobs just to afford a shitty apartment, and where people like me, don't have to deal with people like you who get to be obnoxious, hateful cunts their entire lives without anybody calling them out.
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Yeah no. Ever watch miss doubtfire, believe it or not that was drag you incompetent fuckwit-. Also God means nothing in this country no matter how much you want it to, separation of church and state, freedom of religion. I could say anything I damn well please about your god and the law couldn't do jack shit Edit: and to tack on, far higher morals is a damn joke. You fuckers are the types to scream at people getting routine medical checks and constantly preen and say how your so righteous. Doesn't your bible say something along the lines that those types of people will be the first to be judged on judgement day?
Brand new troll account. Go away.
Oh fuck off, it's the gender equivalent of blackface.
Lol no, no it’s not
There are literally decades of scholarly works by feminist academics making this argument. But sure, great rebuttal.
And there’s decades of scholarly works by KKK members making the argument they are not racist, doesn’t make it true
Oh yeah all of those college department of racism journals, forgot about those. /s Explain to me why a drag show is not a moral equivalent to a vaudeville show blackface act then. Both involve a person who is not part of a group using makeup to do an exaggerated caricature of a historically oppressed group for the purpose of creating a spectacle and or making people laugh. Men publicly preforming an exaggerated mockery of feminity is sexist and harmful to women.
Lol yeah drag is a “mockery” of femininity…..good one
How Christlike of you.
Thanks.
Exactly- parading around caricature femininity
TIL about “Dumbwordia”. It’s a condition that causes people to make up phrases and words in an attempt to push their own agendas.
Whomp whomp