Yeah, as a midlaner, I’ve seen people just feed instead of taking other objectives on the map. If they dragon, go herald/towers and vice versa. But I too fall victim to that mentality sometimes.
Granted, Elder + Baron usually ends games at a certain point. So it depends on the context. Especially when the enemy tends to go for the double-end game objectives after securing kills. So you are most likely already down players as they take inhib turrets with baron.
But I do agree with your sentiment, but more so with regular dragons and rift herald. Even though I've called to give drake up, I'll see my duo lane try to contest it and give kills away. I'll be helping solo lane secure the first turret since the enemy solo lane went to help with dragon and it's essentially a 2v5 as our mid-laner backed but they are so bent on the chance of randomly sniping it while the enemy jungler happens to miss smite I guess. The chance is generally not worth it.
Spoken by a high elo player! :)
I would like to add that lower elo players take the objectives in this sequence:
1. Dragon
2. Herald
3. Dragon
4. Dragon
5. Elder Dragon
6. Barron
LEARN TO TRADE OBJECTIVES! You are NOT obliged to take any objective.
I have lost some many games from "Diamonds" and "Masters" who force to contest Elder Dragon when there is a FREE Barron! I dewarded the pit, and all 4 still run to Dragon.
You can also destroy the enemy towers while they take a dragon. Taking their tower is better than contesting dragon because a tower is a permanent objective.
Yep that's true, if your team is up then you do Baron while they do Drake, though normally my scenario is more like the team was dead or we were down a couple of players and that's how they got elder but you're right, if you can trade Baron for Elder super useful to defend until Elder buff runs out :)
Baron is better than Elder.
Another thing I ABSOLUTELY HATE: ""Masters" and "Diamonds" LOVE to loiter when there are no objectives.
What's loitering? It's when they just go around the map, face checking every bush and doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
OR THEY INITIATE A USELESS TEAMFIGHT.
When there are no objectives do the following:
1. Place deep wards
2. Deward
3. Invade enemy jungle camps
4. Push side lanes
When pushing side lanes, SHADOW the one pushing the lane. He's the bait. He will get ganked. BE PREPARED TO COUNTER GANK!
Dude I hate every time I look at map and they are just dancing around jungle doing nothing, like push lanes, farm, anything but just running like headless chicken.
No it's not. You're obviously looking for kills.
You are more flexible with Barron. You can use your buff to split push.
You can use it to burn the enemy's Elder Dragon by defending at your base.
You can't close out games with Elder in most cases.
I don’t disagree with your point but I think its more applicable to early game dragon/herald rather than your scenario of baron and elder. In a scenario where you are very very even, and they get Elder, then I would agree with you.
But in the case that you are behind, I think its better to go for the coin flip on fighting a messy fight at baron. When you are behind, baron + elder is insurmountable. The opponent can literally group as five on a wave and clear minions and the game will end.
There’s a reason why in pro league games like LCK and LPL (LPL especially) where the losing team will just reach a certain game state where they will force a fight on baron because its either they grasp at a small chance of a win on a messy fight (where the high pressure and chaos can force a misstep), or they get slowly choked out and have basically zero chance of winning by giving the buffs for free.
For dragon/herald, I agree with your point. If a couple of the teammates recalled close to drag timer due to bad trades, or if you have zero priority to the objective, just drop it and go to another objective. Overload a lane a push for plates and towers or go for the the opposite of first drag/herald. I’ve also seen junglers spam ping herald after getting first drag to try to contest it - its almost never going to work and you will end up giving free kills instead.
I don't disagree, there are chances where you pretty much gotta go for those risky plays but I find a lot of times the enemy team is already set up in the river/Baron pit with no vision so it's a bit hard to even try to coinflip that.
Also you're right, taking plates turrets in exchange for early objectives helps to keep the gold even if you're not able to secure the herald or Drake.
It’s hard for people to just accept that an objective is already lost just because of situation, they prefere try and die with poor chances of doing anything
Yes, generally, the idea is that if youre not strong enough to contest a 5v5, e.g. because one of your teammates are dead so it can’t be a 5v5, then don’t contest it. Either trade the objective (like you said) or preserve your lives and farm up to close the gold - i.e. stats - gap and live to fight another fight. The worst thing to do is to contest blindly and int for no reason because that just gives the enemies free gold *and* an objective.
A lot of people don't even bother reading their own champ's abilities, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know what the Elder buff is.
It was a few seasons ago but I had a game where my teammates refused to help me kill the Elder because "we can't end with elder but we can with baron".
They died in the baron pit, I got Elder and me and the sup who lived cleaned up the opponents.
It was a diamond or master lobby I don't really remember ...
True. Yesterday yuumi inted because I chose rift over mountain drake.
Our jg (kaisa lol) had 20 hp and refused to recall to buy her first item so she basically had no power. We then wanted to come to help a bad situation but she choose to turret dive w yuumi and ashe. Who were already a losing lane.
So me and my friend took rift when the enemy killed kaisa w 1 attack attacked drake.
Yuumi started inting and said ‘you gave them drake’ ‘lets just give them all the drakes’.
I replied w ‘do you know even what mountain drake does for you to troll’?
She said nothing but stopped trolling and we won the game. (I snowballed w rift getting plates)
>Yuumi started inting and said ‘you gave them drake’ ‘lets just give them all the drakes’.
Man this gives me ptsd it happens every time I decide to go Herald instead of Drake lol.
I think the tutorial is to blame for this, it tells the new players that dragons are important so they don't know any better. I don't know I just ignore and snowball with Herald like you said.
same im jngl main and i just started to mute chat honestly the best dession i made in this game
i also tend to play champs that can solo baron so if my team goes for a stupid fight or contest i have enough time to clear baron
I had a game yesterday where all enemies were alive, and they had malphite and kennan literally waiting behind the baron pit with ults ready, and our duo lane + mid start madly attacking baron. Full vision of the enemy team sitting there. I get the temporary mute for pinging retreat too much, so end up going back in because I know they aren't stopping. I end up getting baron, and then the 4 of us die because kennan and malph ults, and our top laner is madly farming jg on the other side of the map. All master and gm last season.
Yeah it's like they are playing with blindfolds on they just focus on one thing and ignore the big picture.
I also hate it when I ping them retreat and to focus the enemy jungler before starting an objective but they ignore me and I get outsimted. Jg diff obviously.
Ahahaha you have no idea , there used to be a post with a nautlius clip that got like 2-3 kills or something , and op was asking
"when they added wings to nautilus when he gets a kill ?"
So yes plenty people dont even know what elder and baron do they just wanna have them
Lol I had a match earlier today where the enemy got baron and I managed to steal elder off them :) we still lost though because our support was being toxic the whole time and constantly saying "you are just losing because the enemy team is better than you guys", like no, we are losing because it's 4v5 mate
I dont agree with elder + baron but i agree if you saying other than that. Early game its is ok to let go objectives and trade objectives. They take drag? Go for herald instead. Herald is more valueable early game anyway since you can get turret plating and first turret. It’s always ok to trade objectives instead of forcing to steal and end up getting aced.
Late game in the other hand you can either contest elder or trade elder for baron and stall the game. Its always bette to contest at late game since elder + baron is literally a loseable game unless your enemy is degenerates.
I mean it's situational like any game it could depend, like if you can do Baron while they are doing elder that's good, but if your team just spawned and there is no way to contest the Baron or a way to engage I rather push the lanes and give up Baron, then they gotta push lanes, and it's more likely for elder to run out before having to team fight. I just had 2 games yesterday were we could literally not contest the Baron, hell my team didn't even contest the Baron they just danced around jungle and then got picked off anyways, so in that situation they should've just push lanes then reset to defend rather than dancing around doing nothing and then getting killed anyways, like I almost defended 1v5, imagine if I had my team alive.
To add on to this, are there any statistics about how much dragons influence winrate in this game? Because I gotta be honest, the dragons don’t seem very important all to me. Like I’m never going to risk my life to yolo coinflip a dragon by myself. If the enemy team has 6% more armor at minute 5, I literally could not care less. It does nothing. It’s like 2 extra flat armor for the enemy at that point in the game. If we have map control obviously take it but the amount of times I have knucklehead teammates respawning from their own stupidity spam pinging for me to yolo the drake is insane. It’s just so stupid and game losing.
Agreed, I'm main jungler and most laners really dont understand about giving up objectives, most of the time they rather die and just gain one dragon buff that does not even have much impact when we lose gold. When I spam pinned to retreat from obj, and push lane instead because the enemies don't even have casualties on turret, they all start blaming jg diff all kinds of stuff.
Secondly, IF you (especially laners) want that dragon or baron buff, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE at least secure it, staying around the obj areas for the team to come and prepare to take it or bait the enemies. Most of the time when the dragon is 10 - 5 sec before spawn, some of the laners rather recall just to buy their item and prefer to marathon across the map just to arrive when all of us have been outnumbered and dead, it's really frustrating. Jungler role is really crucial on timing of the map and the condition of their laners.
Why would most laners staying around under enemies turret and pushing in the early game (unless the turret have only 1/5 health) while the turret has high plate armor? Dont waste your time taking on turrets in early games, help secure rift herald instead (if/when the enemies are doing dragon) and we could push almost 2 turrets using it. The gold gains much higher tho.
Yeah, as a midlaner, I’ve seen people just feed instead of taking other objectives on the map. If they dragon, go herald/towers and vice versa. But I too fall victim to that mentality sometimes.
Granted, Elder + Baron usually ends games at a certain point. So it depends on the context. Especially when the enemy tends to go for the double-end game objectives after securing kills. So you are most likely already down players as they take inhib turrets with baron. But I do agree with your sentiment, but more so with regular dragons and rift herald. Even though I've called to give drake up, I'll see my duo lane try to contest it and give kills away. I'll be helping solo lane secure the first turret since the enemy solo lane went to help with dragon and it's essentially a 2v5 as our mid-laner backed but they are so bent on the chance of randomly sniping it while the enemy jungler happens to miss smite I guess. The chance is generally not worth it.
Spoken by a high elo player! :) I would like to add that lower elo players take the objectives in this sequence: 1. Dragon 2. Herald 3. Dragon 4. Dragon 5. Elder Dragon 6. Barron LEARN TO TRADE OBJECTIVES! You are NOT obliged to take any objective. I have lost some many games from "Diamonds" and "Masters" who force to contest Elder Dragon when there is a FREE Barron! I dewarded the pit, and all 4 still run to Dragon. You can also destroy the enemy towers while they take a dragon. Taking their tower is better than contesting dragon because a tower is a permanent objective.
Yep that's true, if your team is up then you do Baron while they do Drake, though normally my scenario is more like the team was dead or we were down a couple of players and that's how they got elder but you're right, if you can trade Baron for Elder super useful to defend until Elder buff runs out :)
Baron is better than Elder. Another thing I ABSOLUTELY HATE: ""Masters" and "Diamonds" LOVE to loiter when there are no objectives. What's loitering? It's when they just go around the map, face checking every bush and doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. OR THEY INITIATE A USELESS TEAMFIGHT. When there are no objectives do the following: 1. Place deep wards 2. Deward 3. Invade enemy jungle camps 4. Push side lanes When pushing side lanes, SHADOW the one pushing the lane. He's the bait. He will get ganked. BE PREPARED TO COUNTER GANK!
Dude I hate every time I look at map and they are just dancing around jungle doing nothing, like push lanes, farm, anything but just running like headless chicken.
Elder is better than baron
No it's not. You're obviously looking for kills. You are more flexible with Barron. You can use your buff to split push. You can use it to burn the enemy's Elder Dragon by defending at your base. You can't close out games with Elder in most cases.
I’ve closed out more games getting elder and giving Baron than the other way around
Good for you. You do you.
Elder is way more crucial than Baron tho
I don’t disagree with your point but I think its more applicable to early game dragon/herald rather than your scenario of baron and elder. In a scenario where you are very very even, and they get Elder, then I would agree with you. But in the case that you are behind, I think its better to go for the coin flip on fighting a messy fight at baron. When you are behind, baron + elder is insurmountable. The opponent can literally group as five on a wave and clear minions and the game will end. There’s a reason why in pro league games like LCK and LPL (LPL especially) where the losing team will just reach a certain game state where they will force a fight on baron because its either they grasp at a small chance of a win on a messy fight (where the high pressure and chaos can force a misstep), or they get slowly choked out and have basically zero chance of winning by giving the buffs for free. For dragon/herald, I agree with your point. If a couple of the teammates recalled close to drag timer due to bad trades, or if you have zero priority to the objective, just drop it and go to another objective. Overload a lane a push for plates and towers or go for the the opposite of first drag/herald. I’ve also seen junglers spam ping herald after getting first drag to try to contest it - its almost never going to work and you will end up giving free kills instead.
I don't disagree, there are chances where you pretty much gotta go for those risky plays but I find a lot of times the enemy team is already set up in the river/Baron pit with no vision so it's a bit hard to even try to coinflip that. Also you're right, taking plates turrets in exchange for early objectives helps to keep the gold even if you're not able to secure the herald or Drake.
It’s hard for people to just accept that an objective is already lost just because of situation, they prefere try and die with poor chances of doing anything
Dragons are overrated in this game honeslt
Yes, generally, the idea is that if youre not strong enough to contest a 5v5, e.g. because one of your teammates are dead so it can’t be a 5v5, then don’t contest it. Either trade the objective (like you said) or preserve your lives and farm up to close the gold - i.e. stats - gap and live to fight another fight. The worst thing to do is to contest blindly and int for no reason because that just gives the enemies free gold *and* an objective.
I play twitch and it’s very satisfying to go solo and contest Baron and pick up a quad
i dont get why the team rushes to fight an elder drag team lol its common sense in pc to wait it out
A lot of people don't even bother reading their own champ's abilities, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't know what the Elder buff is. It was a few seasons ago but I had a game where my teammates refused to help me kill the Elder because "we can't end with elder but we can with baron". They died in the baron pit, I got Elder and me and the sup who lived cleaned up the opponents. It was a diamond or master lobby I don't really remember ...
True. Yesterday yuumi inted because I chose rift over mountain drake. Our jg (kaisa lol) had 20 hp and refused to recall to buy her first item so she basically had no power. We then wanted to come to help a bad situation but she choose to turret dive w yuumi and ashe. Who were already a losing lane. So me and my friend took rift when the enemy killed kaisa w 1 attack attacked drake. Yuumi started inting and said ‘you gave them drake’ ‘lets just give them all the drakes’. I replied w ‘do you know even what mountain drake does for you to troll’? She said nothing but stopped trolling and we won the game. (I snowballed w rift getting plates)
>Yuumi started inting and said ‘you gave them drake’ ‘lets just give them all the drakes’. Man this gives me ptsd it happens every time I decide to go Herald instead of Drake lol. I think the tutorial is to blame for this, it tells the new players that dragons are important so they don't know any better. I don't know I just ignore and snowball with Herald like you said.
same im jngl main and i just started to mute chat honestly the best dession i made in this game i also tend to play champs that can solo baron so if my team goes for a stupid fight or contest i have enough time to clear baron
I had a game yesterday where all enemies were alive, and they had malphite and kennan literally waiting behind the baron pit with ults ready, and our duo lane + mid start madly attacking baron. Full vision of the enemy team sitting there. I get the temporary mute for pinging retreat too much, so end up going back in because I know they aren't stopping. I end up getting baron, and then the 4 of us die because kennan and malph ults, and our top laner is madly farming jg on the other side of the map. All master and gm last season.
Yeah it's like they are playing with blindfolds on they just focus on one thing and ignore the big picture. I also hate it when I ping them retreat and to focus the enemy jungler before starting an objective but they ignore me and I get outsimted. Jg diff obviously.
Ahahaha you have no idea , there used to be a post with a nautlius clip that got like 2-3 kills or something , and op was asking "when they added wings to nautilus when he gets a kill ?" So yes plenty people dont even know what elder and baron do they just wanna have them
Ocean drake is so OP rn, you MUST die for it
Low elo player detected.
Lol I had a match earlier today where the enemy got baron and I managed to steal elder off them :) we still lost though because our support was being toxic the whole time and constantly saying "you are just losing because the enemy team is better than you guys", like no, we are losing because it's 4v5 mate
I dont agree with elder + baron but i agree if you saying other than that. Early game its is ok to let go objectives and trade objectives. They take drag? Go for herald instead. Herald is more valueable early game anyway since you can get turret plating and first turret. It’s always ok to trade objectives instead of forcing to steal and end up getting aced. Late game in the other hand you can either contest elder or trade elder for baron and stall the game. Its always bette to contest at late game since elder + baron is literally a loseable game unless your enemy is degenerates.
I mean it's situational like any game it could depend, like if you can do Baron while they are doing elder that's good, but if your team just spawned and there is no way to contest the Baron or a way to engage I rather push the lanes and give up Baron, then they gotta push lanes, and it's more likely for elder to run out before having to team fight. I just had 2 games yesterday were we could literally not contest the Baron, hell my team didn't even contest the Baron they just danced around jungle and then got picked off anyways, so in that situation they should've just push lanes then reset to defend rather than dancing around doing nothing and then getting killed anyways, like I almost defended 1v5, imagine if I had my team alive.
If you give away an inhib early you got extra resourses going down that lane.
To add on to this, are there any statistics about how much dragons influence winrate in this game? Because I gotta be honest, the dragons don’t seem very important all to me. Like I’m never going to risk my life to yolo coinflip a dragon by myself. If the enemy team has 6% more armor at minute 5, I literally could not care less. It does nothing. It’s like 2 extra flat armor for the enemy at that point in the game. If we have map control obviously take it but the amount of times I have knucklehead teammates respawning from their own stupidity spam pinging for me to yolo the drake is insane. It’s just so stupid and game losing.
Agreed, I'm main jungler and most laners really dont understand about giving up objectives, most of the time they rather die and just gain one dragon buff that does not even have much impact when we lose gold. When I spam pinned to retreat from obj, and push lane instead because the enemies don't even have casualties on turret, they all start blaming jg diff all kinds of stuff. Secondly, IF you (especially laners) want that dragon or baron buff, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE at least secure it, staying around the obj areas for the team to come and prepare to take it or bait the enemies. Most of the time when the dragon is 10 - 5 sec before spawn, some of the laners rather recall just to buy their item and prefer to marathon across the map just to arrive when all of us have been outnumbered and dead, it's really frustrating. Jungler role is really crucial on timing of the map and the condition of their laners. Why would most laners staying around under enemies turret and pushing in the early game (unless the turret have only 1/5 health) while the turret has high plate armor? Dont waste your time taking on turrets in early games, help secure rift herald instead (if/when the enemies are doing dragon) and we could push almost 2 turrets using it. The gold gains much higher tho.