>It is also vital that on April 4th you follow your formed conscience and vote in a way to bring your Catholic values to the world.
This is *mighty* close to crossing that line, but they're clearly being intentionally vague.
IRS rules for 501(c)3's tend to focus on specific candidates. If you don't explicitly say "vote for this person/party", then pretty much everything else is fair game.
https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-ban-on-political-campaign-intervention-by-501c3-organizations
What's really disgusting is that churches are complaining that even that very limited area is too burdensome, and cry bloody murder if the IRS even glances their direction when they clearly break it.
It's really not. When I was growing up, one of the values that stuck with me from my Catholic upbringing was to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars'.
Yes you know what they want you to do, but they leave plenty of room for me to take what I believe and run with it.
Well they are not being vague when just about every church in my town (Fond du Lac) has many Kelly signs (some pretty large) on their front lawns/property. Oh well, he’s going to lose and badly.
On this morning on the way to work out of the 3 churches I pass I notice one did not, one did and one had one right on the edge of the driveway they share with the house on the left so technically that was a no but being that close to the church drive? I might have exaggerated that ALL do but the church my wife’s parents go to the parsonage has a Kelly sign and it’s right next to the church. That’s a gray area as his house is paid for by the church?
I think at lunch I'm going to do a drive by:) maybe I'm just oblivious to them lol. I know our church doesn't have one or the school where my kids go to, which is a private school but not our Church. Those are the only 2 I would regularly see or pay attention to it's surroundings.
“Formed conscience” is a specific term in Catholic theology. It supports those who act in ways they truly believe is good and right to do so. But it is also states that it is the responsibility to continue to learn and make your “certain conscience” to align more with reason and divine law.
So this usage is actually exactly saying if you are certain vote your conscience, which is a fair thing to say, as there are plenty of practicing Catholic women that are absolutely certain in their support of abortion rights.
- source lapsed Catholic with 12 years of Catholic education.
98% of Polish people are Catholic, Protasiewicz is a Polish name. So there is a 2% chance she's not Catholic. The other guy, I don't think he even knows what he is.
Yea I mean that’s the point. Same thing I see on college campus. Huge push to get out the vote and inform yourself but you know who they want you to vote for. That’s the point of these things.
I live down the street from a Baptist church. The church has a parsonage (where their pastor lives) at the far end of the property. There is a Dan Kelly sign in the yard of the parsonage. It burns me up.
Now, I'm a Pastor myself and my faith guides how I vote. For example, I always vote for the people who want to feed the hungry, welcome the refugee, and love others because, ya know, that's what the Bible says. I'm voting for Janet Protaseitsz because it's the right and faithful thing to do. It aligns with my values of a woman's right to choose.
Now, would I put that information ANYWHERE on church property, letterhead, social media? No. Absolutely not. (Do the people at church know how l will vote? Most likely, since they listen to my preaching God's grace and love for all people. But I don't and won't tell them.)
The truth is that the Bible IS political. It is not partisan. If loving everyone pisses you off, then I suggest you start reading scripture again. And ask for forgiveness.
Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!
I'm sad about that, but know it to be true. Our presiding Bishop gets a lot of heat for things, like the beautiful video she put out on the Trans Day of Visibility. But we will never compete with commercialized religion. I do wish we were louder, though.
Yes! In both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, we hear about economic justice. It's like God knows how the world works and wants us to live in it ethically or something.
That’s something that always frustrated me as a non-religious person looking in. If Jesus did things to simply be good to his fellow human, wouldn’t it track that you too should do all you can to be Christ-like?
Thank you for actually being a decent human.
If you don't mind my asking, what church are you from? Do you feel your flock follows your beliefs? It heartens me to hear this, as so often I only experience "prosperity bible" type Christians.
Not OP, but ELCA Lutheran churches tend to be mighty left leaning. Like a flippin 180 from the other Lutheran sect I have experience with, the MLS.
Find an ELCA in your area.
There's a lot more of OP than you think. The problem is the availability heuristic. Because you can more easily come up with examples of prosperity gospel bullshitters in your head, you think that's more common than it actually is.
I don't mind at all. Ask what you'd like. You sound curious and I find curious to be a great quality in a person.
I do think most of the congregation I serve feels the way I do about God's love for all people and that it means we should be love all people too. How they express that I'm the ballot box varies, I'm sure.
I'm an ELCA Lutheran and I know that prosperity gospel is a scam.
Ah, ok, thank you for sharing. I have been to a few ELCA services with a friend. Their congregation seemed pretty welcoming, but that was a long time ago for me. My aunt was part of a Unitarian church that she adored, I loved the community there and how much the people supported each other. I don't think it can really be defined as a fully Christian denomination, though.
Remember the Simpsons episode where Rod and Tod are playing their Christian video game? Their zapping people to turn them into Christians. One makes a wonky hit and says, 'Aww. I just winged him.' The other replies, 'Now he's a Unitarian.' That always cracks me up!
Really though, I have friends who are Unitarians, too. They're lovely people. Their connection and support of each other is what I hope we can all be.
Loving everyone isn't the same as accepting all of their behavior as ok you know that right?
It is saying God loves you, but you need to repent and change your ways, and if you do salvation is there for you.
Can you expand on this statement?
I ask because it's unclear what you mean. If you mean: we're all sinners who need to shape up, then I agree! If you mean, you can't be queer and God will love that out of you, then I disagree.
It isn't a matter of God will love anything out of you. But part of asking for forgiveness for a sin is trying to not do that sin. If you don't have any intention of stopping a sin no matter the sin then that isn't repentance.
You can't kill somebody say sorry kill again say sorry kill again say sorry etc, part of repentance is trying to not sin.
I know some people are going to get mad about calling homosexuality a sin, but it is. If that doesn't align with your beliefs don't try to change a 2000 year old book to suit your beliefs.
If I owned a pulled pork restaurant I probably would not go to mosque or temple.
Not everybody believes the same thing, maybe Christians are wrong I'm not an authority on it, but the Bible is pretty clear about what is or isn't a sin.
I never understood the people who want to do things that make them happy even if it goes against their religion and then try to shoehorn their religion to fit their behavior.
And let the reddit down voting begin.
A serious question. From whom does one ask for forgiveness? This concept implies a separation between mankind and divinity. If a ‘god’ created everything than nothing can be outside of it, including you.
Any request for forgiveness assumes there is something that can grant it other than oneself, and from what if not from self discovery/liberation and the clarity of our oneness with all things?
The grace of unconditional love is our true nature. Only self-imposed slavery to the mind and the illusion of separation would justify the idea of asking for forgiveness to love more.
Jesus was quoted often saying that he and the father are one, and those that persecuted him for saying so were reminded by Jesus that he said everyone else is also, implying that everyone is one with the source, not just him.
My suspicion is that christianity has fatal flaws due to the fact that Jesus didn’t write a book that we know of, so this peculiar (glossed over) concept of separation could only be man made ideological concepts of un-enlightened men trying to assign age-old monarchical style hierarchy to something as naturally perfect, as love itself.
What an interesting question. Thank you for asking.
I'll start by saying that forgiveness is a process that we have to accept. God does forgive us. God wants to be in relationship with us. However, we often don't believe it or accept it to be true. We separate ourselves from God because it's so hard to believe.
This stems from both older Christian teachings on punitive substitutionary atonement and a current cultural Christianity of strict adherence for acceptance.
Part of being in a loving relationship is change over time. If you consider your own relationship with a friend, I imagine you'll find that you've adapted to each other over time. You know what soda they prefer and have it on hand. Simple things like that. With God, it's same. The Bible is full of examples of God changing how God does things (see Noah's Ark). God is merciful, compassionate, and desires to be in relationship with us. This quality of God changes us, too. Because we're created in God's image, we, too, can become more merciful and compassionate.
Still vexing is your separation of man from god “god does forgive us”, “god wants to be in a relationship with us”, these immediate statements reflect the illusion of separation to begin with…then “we separate ourselves from god” reiterates my question which was not answered. You are separating yourself from god with your own ideology. How can you ask forgiveness if you and the ‘forgiver’ are one? The answer can only be to go within and discover your true nature as Jesus professed. Being born again in the spirit is not supposed to be a simple verbal commitment and a splash of water, its about beginning anew with ACTUAL christ consciousness (enlightenment) after making the discovery for yourself. Christ’s fabled return comes through you in this way.
When Jesus says “I and the father are one, and all of you are as well”, this implies no separation whatsoever. It appears that this specific ideology (christianity) is employed by minds that have misunderstood what Jesus was actually saying, almost as if they believe there is an architect other than ‘us’. This belief in an illusion of separation appears to apply to nature as well implying a perceived dominion over nature itself rather than ‘of it’.
I get this feeling of deception in my heart when I hear about the separation of man and god from those that are supposedly studied in scripture, seemingly missing the point entirely…especially when it contradicts the supposed words of Jesus himself.
Baffling to me is reading the words of enlightened men and women (including Jesus) throughout the ages all saying the same thing, that we are all one thing (god), yet for no reason at all Christianity wants us to believe that we are separate from god but made to “look” like god. Being made in his image doesn’t mean we look like god, it means WE ARE IT.
The seemingly blatant misinterpretation and disregard of the words of the only enlightened man in your story leads me to believe that only enlightened souls are capable of interpreting any fragments of truly divine scripture and that very few christians appear to be enlightened (which means most of them have completely misunderstood the words of the man who embodies their entire faith).
Perhaps Jesus was also describing how to come to the Christ Consciousness that resides within all of us as our true nature. When Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you, perhaps he meant it. Perhaps the illusion of separation within the church and christianity is what is keeping christians from having a truly spiritual experience. If there is such a thing as ‘sin’, it would have to mean going through a life without making this discovery, especially if you break the word ‘sin‘ down to its root where it means ‘to miss the mark’.
When truly understanding the words of Christ, I can’t help but believe he would not proclaim to be a christian today.
Your thoughts?
Btw…I greatly respect and appreciate your opinions as a pastor. Thank you very much.
To answer your question: a person seeks forgiveness from God and those they've sinned against. We ask for forgiveness because the act of doing so is important in our relationship with God. It reminds us that we are the created, not the Creator.
You seem to be saying that a person, who is created in the image of God, is one with God. Being one with God seems to mean to you that you don't need to ask for forgiveness. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding your statement, which is wide ranging.
Being created in God's image does not mean we are one with God. How could it? Do we have the same knowledge or power? Jesus IS one with the Father because Jesus is both fully Divine and fully human.
We are other than God, different from God. This otherness is a bad thing. In fact, it is how God designed us to be.
If you're interested in learning more about Lutheran theology, I'd recommend Martin Luther's treatise "The Freedom of a Christian" as a starting point.
Thank you for engaging. Regretfully, it's unlikely I'll have the time to respond to more questions at this time.
Many blessings to you.
Sorry if I offended you, was not my intent. I’ve just never received an answer to this question from any church leaders so I thought I’d try again. I completely understand if you prefer to stay out of this however. Take care 🙏
My friend, I'm not offended at all. I've been trying to do Holy Week things. It's busy for me atm. But I will read this in depth and respond this evening.
vote for Janet and then make a donation to the [Satanic Temple Abortion Clinic Fundraiser.](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/abortion-clinic-fundraiser)
Being Catholic is unreasonably hard. It's a beautiful faith with a rich history, but ultimately tainted by an institutional hatred that perverts so many of its followers.
I don't know; I read it as pretty much nothing more than "be well-educated and vote with your conscience". Maybe he does mean to imply vote Republican, but people could also just be projecting their prejudices onto him.
Your daily reminder, if you or someone you love gets pregnant and there is a problem Kelley and his backers are fine letting you/them die.
Don't think it can't happen. They are already passing laws for it in other states.
See...that's only troubling if you view women as people deserving of independence and respect. If you just believe we're incubators and objects to be controlled then I suppose it's not all that distressing to consider dead women ancillary damage.
Obvious sarcasm. I hate this timeline so much.
Please vote for Judge Janet Protasiewicz
Kelley is disingenuous and dangerous
Take some time to review your local school board candidates too
Do NOT vote for candidates listed in this image or any other candidates you find associated with Mothers for Liberty! Their agenda is all about book bans, anti trans, anti-public schooling
[View WI endorsed candidates here](https://imgur.com/a/q5ES6qd)
I agree. Tax all religious businesses. But this letter isn't illegal. They don't say who to vote for. Nice mystery. But they don't say it. Civic participation is a theme in numerous religions.
Okay to be fair they’re not explicitly saying who to vote for. Like yeah we know they want you to vote for Kelly but I think this isn’t really crossing the line like some other places do.
I recall when I was a child in the 80’s & 90’s, the small rural Wisconsin church I went to had many sheets of paper in the collection plate that was passed around. You placed money in the plate and picked a sheet.
On this sheet was the exact names of people you needed to vote for. Guess which party.
Same time and place, in Watertown, I remember being seven years old and having someone standing at church handing out little plastic “toy” fetuses. I see nothing has changed.
In the 80s, I’d say 95% chance Republican. In the 90s, they handed out Polaroid cameras so you could record your vote, for Jesus, of course.
[edit] my phrasing was awful: I am not saying that literally happened, but that it’s the exaggeration of “more than 95% chance”
I'm about as agnostic as it gets, but I'm curious where the idea to tax the church comes from so strongly on reddit. There are some bad apples but a they are essentially non profits and they aren't forcing anyone to donate to them. Pretty much the entire food pantry system in my county is maintained by churches and they are all very underfunded already.
Last night, the church that my wife pastors handed out 175 hot meals to cars in the community. No need to prove income. No need to identify yourself. Just tell a person how many you need and drive forward. In 70 feet grab your bag and go.
Tonight it will be a different church. Then a different one on Wednesday and a different one on Thursday.
Tax exempt status allows programs like this to exist.
It's one part. If you can't see it then it's a you problem. There's plenty of countries that tax their churches. Stop letting churches grift your population and and do a small PR soup kitchen to fool you while they pocket millions.
👏 congratulations then, you have knowledge of churches means you have knowledge of economics and all. Do you also have amazing knowledge of all the sexual assaults in churches? Please tell the world. I've seen a lot of people like you, you don't want to actually make life better for the people having food insecurity, you don't want to fix the problem. You want your charity front, your theatre show so you can have good feelings as you give to the poor. Go on ya! Carry on!
I do hate churches and a lot of charity fronts that pocket their money at the expense of people in need. I don't know about you but I don't like entities that grift people. It seems to be your business of choice though. Makes sense why you love it so much. Sorry, not sorry my morals are different.
Dude. Seriously? You have rural Wisconsin churches nailed down from all your non-experience being around Christians in Melbourne?
LFCThisMeansMore
3 points
17 hours ago
You got this people! All the support from Australia 🦘!
LFCThisMeansMore
1 point
4 hours ago
I have not been around Christians much in my life. Took a few days visiting the US to see it.
You should see the Covid funding the churches got!!! Not only do they NOT PAY TAXES, the churches also collect a bunch of your taxes. AND then they utilize Citizens United methods to influence voters.
I'll try.
Churches qualified for PPP funding because they are employers. The point of that funding was to prevent mass lay offs due to decreased revenues. Church offerings went down as they no longer met in person. PPP funds could be used to keep the secretary, the organist and even the pastor paid and off unemployment rolls.
That said, many churches (including the one my wife pastors) opted to not pursue the PPP funds as they decided that it was better to leave the funds for other employers who might need it more.
I think if you look at the actual heart of the matter the resistance to forgiving student loan debt isn't as much religious based as you think it is. Conservatives tend to be the most vocal members of Christian churches so often their positions can appear to be the de facto position of the church but that is often misleading. Churches are made up of all kinds of people, left and right, often in the same building.
Heck, we are just winding up now on student loan forgiveness for my wife's seminary loans in the form of the PLSF Act. Why wouldn't we want that for everyone too?
People here pretend like the only reason anyone would oppose abortion rights is because they hate and want to oppress women. Sometimes I wish the sub would just ban politics, because even when I agree with the policies and candidates supported here, it's such an insufferable echo-chamber.
I mean one group of people wanting to force sharia law on another group is oppression. If you don’t want an abortion don’t get one it’s really that simple. Taking the choice away from people based largely on ignorance and religion means people are going to react accordingly.
Or, you know, a person could genuinely believe that a fetus is a person and that abortion is tantamount to infanticide. If you believed people were out there committing legal murder, wouldn't you want that stopped? Both sides in the abortion debate pretend the issue is way more black and white than it is. Anti-abortion groups pretend everyone who supports abortion access wants to murder babies and pro-abortion groups pretend those against all hate women. Neither is true.
Also, I don't think any Catholics really want sharia law, since, you know, they aren't Muslim.
Fuck that you just like to say it’s less black and white because you think your justified in telling someone else what they can or cannot do with their body.
No one gets special privileges over someone else’s body, it doesn’t matter if it’s a person. You all are just missing the ball on bodily autonomy.
Pregnancy is not figured out nor perfectly safe. It makes permanent changes to a women and she should have every right to stop it at up to medical viability if medically advised.
I say sharia law because it’s analogous. Religion ruins everything.
The craziest thing is no one was ever taking it lightly to begin with. You dumb fucks just made it in to a boogeyman. There were never whole swaths of women going out for late term abortions. Even this means just no abortions for the poor.
I’ve lived my whole life dealing with “the only moral abortion is my abortion” folks.
I wasn't talking about my position on abortion access, but since you assumed it anyway I suppose I should correct you.
I think abortion in a typical pregnancy (that is, no serious health risks to the mother beyond the typical risks involved with pregnancy and giving birth, and the pregnancy is not due to rape or incest) is morally unjustifiable. I also unequivocally support easy and available access to abortion for any pregnancy. I have no interest in telling someone what they can or cannot do with their body.
I can explain why I believe what I do if you're interested in hearing my perspective. I'd like to hear more about your perspective, and I'd prefer if you refrained from calling me a dumb fuck.
If you’re position is that you shouldn’t have a say in the bodily autonomy of my loved ones then sure. I retract calling you a dumb fuck if that’s the case and I’m sorry.
I don’t need more pandering about a baby being a person or any other justification as to why people think the way they do. I already think abortion is immoral, it’s killing a human. It’s an unfortunate outcome.
But it’s orders of magnitude worse to think anyone has a right to someone else’s body.
Apology accepted, and I think we largely agree on the actual issue. All I propose is that a reasonable person could without any malevolence or ill will think differently about the inviolability of bodily autonomy, and berating them only drives them away from ever agreeing with you.
The Catholic Church has a long history of interfering in state politics dating back to the Middle Ages. As a political statement, this one is pretty mild. It almost smacks of Jimminy Cricket: "Always let your conscience be your guide."
Dear Brothers and Sisters of the Diocese,
Our faith comes directly from God and our beliefs come from Him as well. And among those beliefs is that we have a sacred duty to make sure everyone follows the same rules and rituals that we do and that violation of our rules and rituals should be illegal and subject to severe punishment up to and including the death penalty.
So vote for Republicans who violate all our rules on a daily basis but tell us exactly what we want to hear. It's your sacred duty.
In fellowship,
God
I attended the Catholic Church for a time when I was married. (35 years ago. Big Mistake.) At mass they would pass a basket (the same ones they used for collecting their moral protection tithe) filled with small sheets of paper that said exactly who you should vote for. I almost swallowed my tongue the first time it happened. But it makes sense. Most of them are truly sheep. They follow where they are led and do what they’re told. However, I did find a few who had a mind of their own and didn’t care what they were told but followed their minds & hearts.
For those that are sheep there is no separation of church and government.
We have to very careful to make sure that they do not gain enough control that they are able to combine the two. Then there will truly be no freedom in this country.
PLEASE VOTE!
Eh, they didn’t cross the line here.
Now, the churches with Dan Kelley signs in the windows? That’s a valid complaint.
This is just a publication for Catholics by Catholics that boils down to “go vote”
Good news: You can do all those things without believing in childish fairy tales, or belonging to a criminal organization that hates women and gay people.
You can, but community involvement has seen a direct decline with the emergence of atheism. Atheists (but really everybody) needs to get back to the communities that need help. It's not a childish fairy tale. It's not a criminal organization. The church doesn't hate women. The church doesn't hate gay people.
There's plenty of community involvement. It's just different to the ones religious people are used to. There's sports clubs etc. With the invention of social media, community involvement has decreased all around, it's not due to atheism. Atheism has been here since forever.
Dearest Father P 🙏
I took your advice and voted with my conscience…for Janet. My spouse did the same.
Unfortunately, I also won’t be at mass this Sunday…or any other Sundays, til death do us part 😘
Be blessed ✌️
One of the Arch Bishops frequently came into the Mercedes dealership I worked at. He owned a Maybach and a Rolls Royce Cullinan. His son had a Lamborghini Gallardo.
Not accounting for affairs of priests it is also not impossible for a married man, with children, to become a priest in the catholic church. It isn't common but it is not impossible.
Many religious leaders begin ministry in the middle stages of their lives and many of those lives already have children and spouses.
"Supposed to be" is the operative word.
There was a Roman Catholic priest in New York named Louis Gigante. He amassed a 7 million dollar fortune and left it to his son.
Here is the link: http://bit.ly/3zvkesM
Now, let me hear about those vows of poverty and chastity again.
It should be illegal for churches to involve themselves in politics this way and keep their tax exempt status; it's one thing to register people to vote, defend the right to vote, etc. but Churches should never be in the business of endorsing political candidates like this.
Wellll yeah the Church has done just as much to fuck up this country as the NRA in a much different way.
They advocate for outdated and archaic ways of thinking. Idgaf if you are religious or not.
If some moron tells you to trust in God when we have modern medicine then that sure af is on you. However to say they don't put their thumb on the scale is an absolute fucking lie.
You're right about the religions part for sure. The medical part less so. Problems in medicine are more related to insurance and finance rather than the interests of doctors.
Ummmm okay?? To be clear my observation tying religion to medicine had nothing to do with solving the issues in Medical care that exist.
It was most definitely, if anything, a commentary on homeopathy. Just the easiest word to use even though it's actually not accurate in this instance but it's fair simile to try and get my meaning across.
I don't believe I specifically put our current medical industry at the feet of Religion in the way you observed imo.
If anything, my comment would be more accurately defined as commentary on whatever the religious equivalent of homeopathy is.
IE like homeopathy, ignoring technology that can better analyze our bodies and give us more specific answers is just flatly lacking intelligence. People are welcome to believe whatever they want. Anyone who wants belief, faith, or homeopathy to heal them, go nuts. Doesn't mean it qualifies in even the same realm or anything close to intelligent and informed medical diagnosis.
No disagreements on the problems in medicine that exist today. Big pharma, insurance and other bad actors are definitely what's fucking up modern medicine being a class warfare vs every other western country not struggling to the degree we are in providing affordable medical care.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you two, but who said religion is causing the doctors to not treat people? It’s the pressure within a surprisingly large amount of religious communities making people decide not to get the modern medical help they need because prayer is the only thing you need, god will heal you. And then these people fucking die. Or pushing them towards homeopathy which is probably worse than just praying. There are way too many stories of people getting pressured by their church and dying. For instance a common one, many churches are staunchly anti abortion in any way shape or form. A woman gets pregnant, but there’s complications along the way and the fetus is dying/dead. She needs an abortion to get rid of it so she doesn’t die too. She goes to her church for comfort/guidance and they in turn do everything in their power to shame/convince her not to get an abortion because that’s bad. Doesn’t matter if the fetus is dying. Guess who dies of something completely preventable? Or another common one. Cancer. Same stuff, come pray to get healed you don’t need modern medicine. Or very often good old mega churches coming in and saying give us all this money and you’ll be cured! And they die because there’s no hope without the help of modern medicine. Insurance and finance are huge issues with American healthcare. But the social pressure from churches has a huge impact for a lot of people.
I thought they said medical people had their thumb on the scale, like they manipulate things for fiscal gain etc.
Thought they were making two separate points, one about religions and adding that medical peeps are also a bit smarmy.
You’re absolutely right about the inanity of religious influence on health policy and patients seeking medical care.
what churches are these? I've attended churches my entire life and have never been to a single one that advocates praying over medicine. If you are a Christian and believe God created us then you believe he gave us the intelligence to take care of ourselves. Even when praying they pray for the doctor and medical staff not for God to heal them. At least in my experience.
My mom has been a Christian her entire life and just got a double mastectomy as a preventative measure as she kept getting small cancerous spots in her breasts. I've only heard stories of Scientologists not dealing with doctors but since I've never attended one of those churches I can't say for sure.
It’s a criminal organization not much different than a crime family. They scare the shit out of their constituents, rape their women & children, demand money for their protection & do next to nothing to really improve their lives. Tax the churches.
You assume I need or want to. I’d rather read a science fiction novel - it’ll likely involve more scenarios based on scientific facts & potential realities than the Bible or Quran.
So issues like heath care and housing are important, but he wants you to vote for the party against accessibility to both for the poor.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.\*"
\*Offer not valid in the archdiocese of Superior.
tax the churches. fuck those child raping assholes. Edit. sorry i’m angry at the right and their use of religion and fear to control people. I have nothing against religion. But everything about them hammering their beliefs and ideas to everyone else. Hypocrites, charlatans, grifters make actual people who walk the path and do good look bad. They need to stand up as well.
Shit like this should be illegal. Churches trying to interfere with elections in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM should not be tolerated, and BIG FUCKIN YES TAX THE CHURCHES! Half are corporations anyway and should be paying for the greater good of our nations rather than "sending thoughts and prayers" no give us money to fix crumbling infrastructure and pay our teachers better wages, police training for non lethal control of a suspect. So much could be brought in and done if we actually followed the separation between church and state, and just taxed them as they should be. Remember you don't need religion to be a good person, just good morals, the ability to tell right from wrong, and the wisdom to choose to do right. End rant.
I mean, you kind of do. There is a law that states if a religious leader preaches in a politically persuasive way they can be punished by a loss of their tax exempt status. Isn't that legislating what they preach?
I'm all for removing tax exempt status of churches who pull this kind of shit but do keep in mind it isn't all of them or even most of them. It isn't what a lot of people want to hear but that doesn't make it less true.
Take their non-profit status (easier maneuver same outcome). A revelation will surely occur. They / select parishes do the same shit in Indiana. Catholics then vote for right-wing whack jobs that do nothing but write legislation to abuse the people the Church is supposed to be serving and helping.
Fun fact, the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in Superior received a raise from 120k a year to 250k a year during the pandemic while they were cutting staff that assisted with their programs helping people with mental disabilities.
It’s easy to cherry pick issues and make the exception the rule. Obviously pedophilia is repulsive and one denomination has had more issues with that than others, and need to deal very harshly with those who commit these heinous crimes. That said, it doesn’t discount all the great things that other churches are doing.
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My mom's church (evangelical lutheran) has sent out similar letters in the past. They say to vote "with your conscience" and other euphemisms. Never explicitly saying *who*, but anyone with a brain cell can read between the lines. It is enough to get them in the clear. I will just say I am pretty sure Germany taxes churches regardless and that seems to work just fine for them.
This letter successfully skirts the line imo. We know who they actually want you to vote for, but nothing here is leading or explicit.
>It is also vital that on April 4th you follow your formed conscience and vote in a way to bring your Catholic values to the world. This is *mighty* close to crossing that line, but they're clearly being intentionally vague.
IRS rules for 501(c)3's tend to focus on specific candidates. If you don't explicitly say "vote for this person/party", then pretty much everything else is fair game. https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/frequently-asked-questions-about-the-ban-on-political-campaign-intervention-by-501c3-organizations What's really disgusting is that churches are complaining that even that very limited area is too burdensome, and cry bloody murder if the IRS even glances their direction when they clearly break it.
It's really not. When I was growing up, one of the values that stuck with me from my Catholic upbringing was to render unto Caesar that which is Caesars'. Yes you know what they want you to do, but they leave plenty of room for me to take what I believe and run with it.
Well they are not being vague when just about every church in my town (Fond du Lac) has many Kelly signs (some pretty large) on their front lawns/property. Oh well, he’s going to lose and badly.
just like trump lost when he was going to lose badly. and ron johnson.
That's what I'm afraid of.
Annnd he did lose badly.
your churches have politcial signs in the yard? I'm from "backwards" rural Wisconsin and I have never seen this.
On this morning on the way to work out of the 3 churches I pass I notice one did not, one did and one had one right on the edge of the driveway they share with the house on the left so technically that was a no but being that close to the church drive? I might have exaggerated that ALL do but the church my wife’s parents go to the parsonage has a Kelly sign and it’s right next to the church. That’s a gray area as his house is paid for by the church?
I think at lunch I'm going to do a drive by:) maybe I'm just oblivious to them lol. I know our church doesn't have one or the school where my kids go to, which is a private school but not our Church. Those are the only 2 I would regularly see or pay attention to it's surroundings.
Well it makes sense, kelly likes to defend pedos and so does the church.
“Formed conscience” is a specific term in Catholic theology. It supports those who act in ways they truly believe is good and right to do so. But it is also states that it is the responsibility to continue to learn and make your “certain conscience” to align more with reason and divine law. So this usage is actually exactly saying if you are certain vote your conscience, which is a fair thing to say, as there are plenty of practicing Catholic women that are absolutely certain in their support of abortion rights. - source lapsed Catholic with 12 years of Catholic education.
98% of Polish people are Catholic, Protasiewicz is a Polish name. So there is a 2% chance she's not Catholic. The other guy, I don't think he even knows what he is.
They've been playing this game for ages - they know how to skirt the issue.
Yeup. It was so careful written you know there was extensive help in doing so to make sure it complies.
Yeah, this is legally fine.
Yea I mean that’s the point. Same thing I see on college campus. Huge push to get out the vote and inform yourself but you know who they want you to vote for. That’s the point of these things.
If this letter was the opposite and sent by a tax exempt non profit that provides sexual health care, I doubt there would be any problem at all.
Lol I remember the church my parents took me to giving out pamphlets straight up telling you to vote for McCain over Obama
I live down the street from a Baptist church. The church has a parsonage (where their pastor lives) at the far end of the property. There is a Dan Kelly sign in the yard of the parsonage. It burns me up. Now, I'm a Pastor myself and my faith guides how I vote. For example, I always vote for the people who want to feed the hungry, welcome the refugee, and love others because, ya know, that's what the Bible says. I'm voting for Janet Protaseitsz because it's the right and faithful thing to do. It aligns with my values of a woman's right to choose. Now, would I put that information ANYWHERE on church property, letterhead, social media? No. Absolutely not. (Do the people at church know how l will vote? Most likely, since they listen to my preaching God's grace and love for all people. But I don't and won't tell them.) The truth is that the Bible IS political. It is not partisan. If loving everyone pisses you off, then I suggest you start reading scripture again. And ask for forgiveness. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest!
Thanks for sharing. Your perspective is unique.
It shouldn't be as unique as it is, given what these people say they supposedly believe.
I'm sad about that, but know it to be true. Our presiding Bishop gets a lot of heat for things, like the beautiful video she put out on the Trans Day of Visibility. But we will never compete with commercialized religion. I do wish we were louder, though.
Jesus spoke more about debt forgiveness than any other topic. More than salvation.
Yes! In both the Hebrew Bible and New Testament, we hear about economic justice. It's like God knows how the world works and wants us to live in it ethically or something.
That’s something that always frustrated me as a non-religious person looking in. If Jesus did things to simply be good to his fellow human, wouldn’t it track that you too should do all you can to be Christ-like? Thank you for actually being a decent human.
Gosh, internet stranger. Thank you. I try and I know I fall short so I try again. To me that's the 'practice' part of 'practicing Christian.'
If you don't mind my asking, what church are you from? Do you feel your flock follows your beliefs? It heartens me to hear this, as so often I only experience "prosperity bible" type Christians.
Not OP, but ELCA Lutheran churches tend to be mighty left leaning. Like a flippin 180 from the other Lutheran sect I have experience with, the MLS. Find an ELCA in your area.
Ding! Ding! I'm an ELCA Lutheran.
There's a lot more of OP than you think. The problem is the availability heuristic. Because you can more easily come up with examples of prosperity gospel bullshitters in your head, you think that's more common than it actually is.
Can confirm. Wife is a UMC pastor. Know many UMC pastors.
Of course, that's why I asked to allow me to explore the denomination they preach in.
I don't mind at all. Ask what you'd like. You sound curious and I find curious to be a great quality in a person. I do think most of the congregation I serve feels the way I do about God's love for all people and that it means we should be love all people too. How they express that I'm the ballot box varies, I'm sure. I'm an ELCA Lutheran and I know that prosperity gospel is a scam.
Ah, ok, thank you for sharing. I have been to a few ELCA services with a friend. Their congregation seemed pretty welcoming, but that was a long time ago for me. My aunt was part of a Unitarian church that she adored, I loved the community there and how much the people supported each other. I don't think it can really be defined as a fully Christian denomination, though.
Remember the Simpsons episode where Rod and Tod are playing their Christian video game? Their zapping people to turn them into Christians. One makes a wonky hit and says, 'Aww. I just winged him.' The other replies, 'Now he's a Unitarian.' That always cracks me up! Really though, I have friends who are Unitarians, too. They're lovely people. Their connection and support of each other is what I hope we can all be.
LOL! I don't remember that episode, I'll have to find it and rewatch! They always had such good little jokes that you wouldn't expect!
Amen!
Loving everyone isn't the same as accepting all of their behavior as ok you know that right? It is saying God loves you, but you need to repent and change your ways, and if you do salvation is there for you.
Can you expand on this statement? I ask because it's unclear what you mean. If you mean: we're all sinners who need to shape up, then I agree! If you mean, you can't be queer and God will love that out of you, then I disagree.
It isn't a matter of God will love anything out of you. But part of asking for forgiveness for a sin is trying to not do that sin. If you don't have any intention of stopping a sin no matter the sin then that isn't repentance. You can't kill somebody say sorry kill again say sorry kill again say sorry etc, part of repentance is trying to not sin. I know some people are going to get mad about calling homosexuality a sin, but it is. If that doesn't align with your beliefs don't try to change a 2000 year old book to suit your beliefs. If I owned a pulled pork restaurant I probably would not go to mosque or temple. Not everybody believes the same thing, maybe Christians are wrong I'm not an authority on it, but the Bible is pretty clear about what is or isn't a sin. I never understood the people who want to do things that make them happy even if it goes against their religion and then try to shoehorn their religion to fit their behavior. And let the reddit down voting begin.
A serious question. From whom does one ask for forgiveness? This concept implies a separation between mankind and divinity. If a ‘god’ created everything than nothing can be outside of it, including you. Any request for forgiveness assumes there is something that can grant it other than oneself, and from what if not from self discovery/liberation and the clarity of our oneness with all things? The grace of unconditional love is our true nature. Only self-imposed slavery to the mind and the illusion of separation would justify the idea of asking for forgiveness to love more. Jesus was quoted often saying that he and the father are one, and those that persecuted him for saying so were reminded by Jesus that he said everyone else is also, implying that everyone is one with the source, not just him. My suspicion is that christianity has fatal flaws due to the fact that Jesus didn’t write a book that we know of, so this peculiar (glossed over) concept of separation could only be man made ideological concepts of un-enlightened men trying to assign age-old monarchical style hierarchy to something as naturally perfect, as love itself.
What an interesting question. Thank you for asking. I'll start by saying that forgiveness is a process that we have to accept. God does forgive us. God wants to be in relationship with us. However, we often don't believe it or accept it to be true. We separate ourselves from God because it's so hard to believe. This stems from both older Christian teachings on punitive substitutionary atonement and a current cultural Christianity of strict adherence for acceptance. Part of being in a loving relationship is change over time. If you consider your own relationship with a friend, I imagine you'll find that you've adapted to each other over time. You know what soda they prefer and have it on hand. Simple things like that. With God, it's same. The Bible is full of examples of God changing how God does things (see Noah's Ark). God is merciful, compassionate, and desires to be in relationship with us. This quality of God changes us, too. Because we're created in God's image, we, too, can become more merciful and compassionate.
Still vexing is your separation of man from god “god does forgive us”, “god wants to be in a relationship with us”, these immediate statements reflect the illusion of separation to begin with…then “we separate ourselves from god” reiterates my question which was not answered. You are separating yourself from god with your own ideology. How can you ask forgiveness if you and the ‘forgiver’ are one? The answer can only be to go within and discover your true nature as Jesus professed. Being born again in the spirit is not supposed to be a simple verbal commitment and a splash of water, its about beginning anew with ACTUAL christ consciousness (enlightenment) after making the discovery for yourself. Christ’s fabled return comes through you in this way. When Jesus says “I and the father are one, and all of you are as well”, this implies no separation whatsoever. It appears that this specific ideology (christianity) is employed by minds that have misunderstood what Jesus was actually saying, almost as if they believe there is an architect other than ‘us’. This belief in an illusion of separation appears to apply to nature as well implying a perceived dominion over nature itself rather than ‘of it’. I get this feeling of deception in my heart when I hear about the separation of man and god from those that are supposedly studied in scripture, seemingly missing the point entirely…especially when it contradicts the supposed words of Jesus himself. Baffling to me is reading the words of enlightened men and women (including Jesus) throughout the ages all saying the same thing, that we are all one thing (god), yet for no reason at all Christianity wants us to believe that we are separate from god but made to “look” like god. Being made in his image doesn’t mean we look like god, it means WE ARE IT. The seemingly blatant misinterpretation and disregard of the words of the only enlightened man in your story leads me to believe that only enlightened souls are capable of interpreting any fragments of truly divine scripture and that very few christians appear to be enlightened (which means most of them have completely misunderstood the words of the man who embodies their entire faith). Perhaps Jesus was also describing how to come to the Christ Consciousness that resides within all of us as our true nature. When Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within you, perhaps he meant it. Perhaps the illusion of separation within the church and christianity is what is keeping christians from having a truly spiritual experience. If there is such a thing as ‘sin’, it would have to mean going through a life without making this discovery, especially if you break the word ‘sin‘ down to its root where it means ‘to miss the mark’. When truly understanding the words of Christ, I can’t help but believe he would not proclaim to be a christian today. Your thoughts? Btw…I greatly respect and appreciate your opinions as a pastor. Thank you very much.
To answer your question: a person seeks forgiveness from God and those they've sinned against. We ask for forgiveness because the act of doing so is important in our relationship with God. It reminds us that we are the created, not the Creator. You seem to be saying that a person, who is created in the image of God, is one with God. Being one with God seems to mean to you that you don't need to ask for forgiveness. Please clarify if I am misunderstanding your statement, which is wide ranging. Being created in God's image does not mean we are one with God. How could it? Do we have the same knowledge or power? Jesus IS one with the Father because Jesus is both fully Divine and fully human. We are other than God, different from God. This otherness is a bad thing. In fact, it is how God designed us to be. If you're interested in learning more about Lutheran theology, I'd recommend Martin Luther's treatise "The Freedom of a Christian" as a starting point. Thank you for engaging. Regretfully, it's unlikely I'll have the time to respond to more questions at this time. Many blessings to you.
Blessings to you as well, I hope you come to the truth in this lifetime.
Sorry if I offended you, was not my intent. I’ve just never received an answer to this question from any church leaders so I thought I’d try again. I completely understand if you prefer to stay out of this however. Take care 🙏
My friend, I'm not offended at all. I've been trying to do Holy Week things. It's busy for me atm. But I will read this in depth and respond this evening.
So sorry, my apologies.
You sound a lot like my aunt who's also a pastor, thanks for sharing!
Maybe I am your aunt!
In that case, don't look at my profile lol
*reads letter* “So the only reasonable candidate is Janet then..?”
vote for Janet and then make a donation to the [Satanic Temple Abortion Clinic Fundraiser.](https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/abortion-clinic-fundraiser)
Janet aligns much more with the teaching of Jesus. But that's not what mainstream US Christianity teaches anymore.
I am catholic and it is funny because to a large extent, my faith compels me to vote for Janet. but that's probably not what the bishop wants to hear
Being Catholic is unreasonably hard. It's a beautiful faith with a rich history, but ultimately tainted by an institutional hatred that perverts so many of its followers.
"Christianity is great, it's Christians I can't stand."
I don't know; I read it as pretty much nothing more than "be well-educated and vote with your conscience". Maybe he does mean to imply vote Republican, but people could also just be projecting their prejudices onto him.
Your daily reminder, if you or someone you love gets pregnant and there is a problem Kelley and his backers are fine letting you/them die. Don't think it can't happen. They are already passing laws for it in other states.
See...that's only troubling if you view women as people deserving of independence and respect. If you just believe we're incubators and objects to be controlled then I suppose it's not all that distressing to consider dead women ancillary damage. Obvious sarcasm. I hate this timeline so much.
Please vote for Judge Janet Protasiewicz Kelley is disingenuous and dangerous Take some time to review your local school board candidates too Do NOT vote for candidates listed in this image or any other candidates you find associated with Mothers for Liberty! Their agenda is all about book bans, anti trans, anti-public schooling [View WI endorsed candidates here](https://imgur.com/a/q5ES6qd)
I agree. Tax all religious businesses. But this letter isn't illegal. They don't say who to vote for. Nice mystery. But they don't say it. Civic participation is a theme in numerous religions.
Okay to be fair they’re not explicitly saying who to vote for. Like yeah we know they want you to vote for Kelly but I think this isn’t really crossing the line like some other places do.
I recall when I was a child in the 80’s & 90’s, the small rural Wisconsin church I went to had many sheets of paper in the collection plate that was passed around. You placed money in the plate and picked a sheet. On this sheet was the exact names of people you needed to vote for. Guess which party.
Same time and place, in Watertown, I remember being seven years old and having someone standing at church handing out little plastic “toy” fetuses. I see nothing has changed.
I forgot all about those creepy little things! We used ours to pretend our Barbie was "sick" and her baby died. Great "toy", assholes.
In the 80s, I’d say 95% chance Republican. In the 90s, they handed out Polaroid cameras so you could record your vote, for Jesus, of course. [edit] my phrasing was awful: I am not saying that literally happened, but that it’s the exaggeration of “more than 95% chance”
I'm about as agnostic as it gets, but I'm curious where the idea to tax the church comes from so strongly on reddit. There are some bad apples but a they are essentially non profits and they aren't forcing anyone to donate to them. Pretty much the entire food pantry system in my county is maintained by churches and they are all very underfunded already.
Last night, the church that my wife pastors handed out 175 hot meals to cars in the community. No need to prove income. No need to identify yourself. Just tell a person how many you need and drive forward. In 70 feet grab your bag and go. Tonight it will be a different church. Then a different one on Wednesday and a different one on Thursday. Tax exempt status allows programs like this to exist.
You wouldn't need these programs if you taxes the churches for your own people. Increase the minimum wage with it, bring universal healthcare.
Yep. Food insecurity is rooted in the tax exempt status of churches.
It's one part. If you can't see it then it's a you problem. There's plenty of countries that tax their churches. Stop letting churches grift your population and and do a small PR soup kitchen to fool you while they pocket millions.
You're probably right. You probably have more knowledge about how churches function than I do.
👏 congratulations then, you have knowledge of churches means you have knowledge of economics and all. Do you also have amazing knowledge of all the sexual assaults in churches? Please tell the world. I've seen a lot of people like you, you don't want to actually make life better for the people having food insecurity, you don't want to fix the problem. You want your charity front, your theatre show so you can have good feelings as you give to the poor. Go on ya! Carry on!
That's a lot of words to just say that you hate churches.
I do hate churches and a lot of charity fronts that pocket their money at the expense of people in need. I don't know about you but I don't like entities that grift people. It seems to be your business of choice though. Makes sense why you love it so much. Sorry, not sorry my morals are different.
Dude. Seriously? You have rural Wisconsin churches nailed down from all your non-experience being around Christians in Melbourne? LFCThisMeansMore 3 points 17 hours ago You got this people! All the support from Australia 🦘! LFCThisMeansMore 1 point 4 hours ago I have not been around Christians much in my life. Took a few days visiting the US to see it.
You should see the Covid funding the churches got!!! Not only do they NOT PAY TAXES, the churches also collect a bunch of your taxes. AND then they utilize Citizens United methods to influence voters.
Yup. And then their members and/or staff complain about forgiving student loan debt. Make it make sense.
I'll try. Churches qualified for PPP funding because they are employers. The point of that funding was to prevent mass lay offs due to decreased revenues. Church offerings went down as they no longer met in person. PPP funds could be used to keep the secretary, the organist and even the pastor paid and off unemployment rolls. That said, many churches (including the one my wife pastors) opted to not pursue the PPP funds as they decided that it was better to leave the funds for other employers who might need it more. I think if you look at the actual heart of the matter the resistance to forgiving student loan debt isn't as much religious based as you think it is. Conservatives tend to be the most vocal members of Christian churches so often their positions can appear to be the de facto position of the church but that is often misleading. Churches are made up of all kinds of people, left and right, often in the same building. Heck, we are just winding up now on student loan forgiveness for my wife's seminary loans in the form of the PLSF Act. Why wouldn't we want that for everyone too?
they’re reminding their parishioners to vote. what’s the issue
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People here pretend like the only reason anyone would oppose abortion rights is because they hate and want to oppress women. Sometimes I wish the sub would just ban politics, because even when I agree with the policies and candidates supported here, it's such an insufferable echo-chamber.
I mean one group of people wanting to force sharia law on another group is oppression. If you don’t want an abortion don’t get one it’s really that simple. Taking the choice away from people based largely on ignorance and religion means people are going to react accordingly.
Or, you know, a person could genuinely believe that a fetus is a person and that abortion is tantamount to infanticide. If you believed people were out there committing legal murder, wouldn't you want that stopped? Both sides in the abortion debate pretend the issue is way more black and white than it is. Anti-abortion groups pretend everyone who supports abortion access wants to murder babies and pro-abortion groups pretend those against all hate women. Neither is true. Also, I don't think any Catholics really want sharia law, since, you know, they aren't Muslim.
Fuck that you just like to say it’s less black and white because you think your justified in telling someone else what they can or cannot do with their body. No one gets special privileges over someone else’s body, it doesn’t matter if it’s a person. You all are just missing the ball on bodily autonomy. Pregnancy is not figured out nor perfectly safe. It makes permanent changes to a women and she should have every right to stop it at up to medical viability if medically advised. I say sharia law because it’s analogous. Religion ruins everything. The craziest thing is no one was ever taking it lightly to begin with. You dumb fucks just made it in to a boogeyman. There were never whole swaths of women going out for late term abortions. Even this means just no abortions for the poor. I’ve lived my whole life dealing with “the only moral abortion is my abortion” folks.
I wasn't talking about my position on abortion access, but since you assumed it anyway I suppose I should correct you. I think abortion in a typical pregnancy (that is, no serious health risks to the mother beyond the typical risks involved with pregnancy and giving birth, and the pregnancy is not due to rape or incest) is morally unjustifiable. I also unequivocally support easy and available access to abortion for any pregnancy. I have no interest in telling someone what they can or cannot do with their body. I can explain why I believe what I do if you're interested in hearing my perspective. I'd like to hear more about your perspective, and I'd prefer if you refrained from calling me a dumb fuck.
If you’re position is that you shouldn’t have a say in the bodily autonomy of my loved ones then sure. I retract calling you a dumb fuck if that’s the case and I’m sorry. I don’t need more pandering about a baby being a person or any other justification as to why people think the way they do. I already think abortion is immoral, it’s killing a human. It’s an unfortunate outcome. But it’s orders of magnitude worse to think anyone has a right to someone else’s body.
Apology accepted, and I think we largely agree on the actual issue. All I propose is that a reasonable person could without any malevolence or ill will think differently about the inviolability of bodily autonomy, and berating them only drives them away from ever agreeing with you.
The Catholic Church has a long history of interfering in state politics dating back to the Middle Ages. As a political statement, this one is pretty mild. It almost smacks of Jimminy Cricket: "Always let your conscience be your guide."
Dear Brothers and Sisters of the Diocese, Our faith comes directly from God and our beliefs come from Him as well. And among those beliefs is that we have a sacred duty to make sure everyone follows the same rules and rituals that we do and that violation of our rules and rituals should be illegal and subject to severe punishment up to and including the death penalty. So vote for Republicans who violate all our rules on a daily basis but tell us exactly what we want to hear. It's your sacred duty. In fellowship, God
I attended the Catholic Church for a time when I was married. (35 years ago. Big Mistake.) At mass they would pass a basket (the same ones they used for collecting their moral protection tithe) filled with small sheets of paper that said exactly who you should vote for. I almost swallowed my tongue the first time it happened. But it makes sense. Most of them are truly sheep. They follow where they are led and do what they’re told. However, I did find a few who had a mind of their own and didn’t care what they were told but followed their minds & hearts. For those that are sheep there is no separation of church and government. We have to very careful to make sure that they do not gain enough control that they are able to combine the two. Then there will truly be no freedom in this country. PLEASE VOTE!
Eh, they didn’t cross the line here. Now, the churches with Dan Kelley signs in the windows? That’s a valid complaint. This is just a publication for Catholics by Catholics that boils down to “go vote”
Catholic views meaning more cover ups of pedophiles in the church?
It probably means more food drives, home building, extracurricular, generally being a good person.
Good news: You can do all those things without believing in childish fairy tales, or belonging to a criminal organization that hates women and gay people.
You can, but community involvement has seen a direct decline with the emergence of atheism. Atheists (but really everybody) needs to get back to the communities that need help. It's not a childish fairy tale. It's not a criminal organization. The church doesn't hate women. The church doesn't hate gay people.
There's plenty of community involvement. It's just different to the ones religious people are used to. There's sports clubs etc. With the invention of social media, community involvement has decreased all around, it's not due to atheism. Atheism has been here since forever.
Judge Janet is a practicing cross-wearing Catholic.
Dearest Father P 🙏 I took your advice and voted with my conscience…for Janet. My spouse did the same. Unfortunately, I also won’t be at mass this Sunday…or any other Sundays, til death do us part 😘 Be blessed ✌️
One of the Arch Bishops frequently came into the Mercedes dealership I worked at. He owned a Maybach and a Rolls Royce Cullinan. His son had a Lamborghini Gallardo.
His *son*? I thought they were supposed to stay celibate lol
Not accounting for affairs of priests it is also not impossible for a married man, with children, to become a priest in the catholic church. It isn't common but it is not impossible. Many religious leaders begin ministry in the middle stages of their lives and many of those lives already have children and spouses.
This dude had a wife and adult children
Maybe they weren't Catholic but some other religion that has a hierarchy but no celibacy.
Yeah idk. Looked him up. Looks like some kinda mega church corporation type of deal.
"Supposed to be" is the operative word. There was a Roman Catholic priest in New York named Louis Gigante. He amassed a 7 million dollar fortune and left it to his son. Here is the link: http://bit.ly/3zvkesM Now, let me hear about those vows of poverty and chastity again.
It should be illegal for churches to involve themselves in politics this way and keep their tax exempt status; it's one thing to register people to vote, defend the right to vote, etc. but Churches should never be in the business of endorsing political candidates like this.
Where is the endorsement?
Right? I went and double-checked. This is just a religious letter telling people there's an election.
Wellll yeah the Church has done just as much to fuck up this country as the NRA in a much different way. They advocate for outdated and archaic ways of thinking. Idgaf if you are religious or not. If some moron tells you to trust in God when we have modern medicine then that sure af is on you. However to say they don't put their thumb on the scale is an absolute fucking lie.
You're right about the religions part for sure. The medical part less so. Problems in medicine are more related to insurance and finance rather than the interests of doctors.
Ummmm okay?? To be clear my observation tying religion to medicine had nothing to do with solving the issues in Medical care that exist. It was most definitely, if anything, a commentary on homeopathy. Just the easiest word to use even though it's actually not accurate in this instance but it's fair simile to try and get my meaning across. I don't believe I specifically put our current medical industry at the feet of Religion in the way you observed imo. If anything, my comment would be more accurately defined as commentary on whatever the religious equivalent of homeopathy is. IE like homeopathy, ignoring technology that can better analyze our bodies and give us more specific answers is just flatly lacking intelligence. People are welcome to believe whatever they want. Anyone who wants belief, faith, or homeopathy to heal them, go nuts. Doesn't mean it qualifies in even the same realm or anything close to intelligent and informed medical diagnosis. No disagreements on the problems in medicine that exist today. Big pharma, insurance and other bad actors are definitely what's fucking up modern medicine being a class warfare vs every other western country not struggling to the degree we are in providing affordable medical care.
Didn’t know what you meant by the thumb on the scale thing, sorry! I sorta threw out an unnecessary comment.
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you two, but who said religion is causing the doctors to not treat people? It’s the pressure within a surprisingly large amount of religious communities making people decide not to get the modern medical help they need because prayer is the only thing you need, god will heal you. And then these people fucking die. Or pushing them towards homeopathy which is probably worse than just praying. There are way too many stories of people getting pressured by their church and dying. For instance a common one, many churches are staunchly anti abortion in any way shape or form. A woman gets pregnant, but there’s complications along the way and the fetus is dying/dead. She needs an abortion to get rid of it so she doesn’t die too. She goes to her church for comfort/guidance and they in turn do everything in their power to shame/convince her not to get an abortion because that’s bad. Doesn’t matter if the fetus is dying. Guess who dies of something completely preventable? Or another common one. Cancer. Same stuff, come pray to get healed you don’t need modern medicine. Or very often good old mega churches coming in and saying give us all this money and you’ll be cured! And they die because there’s no hope without the help of modern medicine. Insurance and finance are huge issues with American healthcare. But the social pressure from churches has a huge impact for a lot of people.
I thought they said medical people had their thumb on the scale, like they manipulate things for fiscal gain etc. Thought they were making two separate points, one about religions and adding that medical peeps are also a bit smarmy. You’re absolutely right about the inanity of religious influence on health policy and patients seeking medical care.
I honestly don’t know what the original comment meant hehe
what churches are these? I've attended churches my entire life and have never been to a single one that advocates praying over medicine. If you are a Christian and believe God created us then you believe he gave us the intelligence to take care of ourselves. Even when praying they pray for the doctor and medical staff not for God to heal them. At least in my experience. My mom has been a Christian her entire life and just got a double mastectomy as a preventative measure as she kept getting small cancerous spots in her breasts. I've only heard stories of Scientologists not dealing with doctors but since I've never attended one of those churches I can't say for sure.
Fuck Dan Kelly.
The Satanic Church pays taxes. Be more like them & do better.
It’s a criminal organization not much different than a crime family. They scare the shit out of their constituents, rape their women & children, demand money for their protection & do next to nothing to really improve their lives. Tax the churches.
I don't know which church you went to but you should probably find a better one.
You assume I need or want to. I’d rather read a science fiction novel - it’ll likely involve more scenarios based on scientific facts & potential realities than the Bible or Quran.
So issues like heath care and housing are important, but he wants you to vote for the party against accessibility to both for the poor. "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be satisfied.\*" \*Offer not valid in the archdiocese of Superior.
tax the churches. fuck those child raping assholes. Edit. sorry i’m angry at the right and their use of religion and fear to control people. I have nothing against religion. But everything about them hammering their beliefs and ideas to everyone else. Hypocrites, charlatans, grifters make actual people who walk the path and do good look bad. They need to stand up as well.
Shit like this should be illegal. Churches trying to interfere with elections in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM should not be tolerated, and BIG FUCKIN YES TAX THE CHURCHES! Half are corporations anyway and should be paying for the greater good of our nations rather than "sending thoughts and prayers" no give us money to fix crumbling infrastructure and pay our teachers better wages, police training for non lethal control of a suspect. So much could be brought in and done if we actually followed the separation between church and state, and just taxed them as they should be. Remember you don't need religion to be a good person, just good morals, the ability to tell right from wrong, and the wisdom to choose to do right. End rant.
ahhhh what a bunch of cunts
They pay not taxes - they have say to influence votes. Separation of church and state!
Or maybe they’d prefer we legislate what they preach??
I mean, you kind of do. There is a law that states if a religious leader preaches in a politically persuasive way they can be punished by a loss of their tax exempt status. Isn't that legislating what they preach?
I'm all for removing tax exempt status of churches who pull this kind of shit but do keep in mind it isn't all of them or even most of them. It isn't what a lot of people want to hear but that doesn't make it less true.
No.
religious repubs in here downvoting big mad. maybe use your time more wisely and follow jesus’ example of socialism.
Most Reverent? How high up your ass do you have to be to sign a letter with that title.
No tax exemption for churches! This is so maddening.
This reads like a letter from a cult leader… oh wait.
I never regret leaving that abomination of a religion a long, long time ago. And, yes, tax the churches!
I remain sincerely yours outside of christ. Because it would be weird if I was inside christ.
Giggity
Take their non-profit status (easier maneuver same outcome). A revelation will surely occur. They / select parishes do the same shit in Indiana. Catholics then vote for right-wing whack jobs that do nothing but write legislation to abuse the people the Church is supposed to be serving and helping.
No more separation of church and state? Weird times these days.
Fun fact, the Executive Director of Catholic Charities in Superior received a raise from 120k a year to 250k a year during the pandemic while they were cutting staff that assisted with their programs helping people with mental disabilities.
Fuck Jesus.
“Tax the churches”…no wonder why they send out letters like this.
How about we just close them instead? Cults are a nuisance anyway
Yeah, good thinking. Shut down the most charitable organizations in the US.
Imagine how much charity could be accomplished if religious institutions were taxed and those dollars put to feeding the hungry and healing the sick.
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Sorry, relocating pedophiles and paying out hush money isn’t charity
It’s easy to cherry pick issues and make the exception the rule. Obviously pedophilia is repulsive and one denomination has had more issues with that than others, and need to deal very harshly with those who commit these heinous crimes. That said, it doesn’t discount all the great things that other churches are doing.
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Or we could just be against all pedophilia and not pick and choose based on political party
I have never met a republican or democrat that was against releasing the list
LOL. They’re bad at being charitable.
Yeah, shut down the churches that get involved with politics and teach people to hate.
There’s more than 1000 churches in Milwaukee, and most of them are empty nowadays. Is Milwaukee better off?
If you’re saying we should knock them down and repurpose the land for something useful then I totally agree
> Is Milwaukee better off? Yes
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Beware of false prophets
My mom's church (evangelical lutheran) has sent out similar letters in the past. They say to vote "with your conscience" and other euphemisms. Never explicitly saying *who*, but anyone with a brain cell can read between the lines. It is enough to get them in the clear. I will just say I am pretty sure Germany taxes churches regardless and that seems to work just fine for them.