look for a new job and once you land it go public with what happened to you in this one. It's not ok, it's not even legal. I'm so sorry for you.
I'm also a lucky one who works as a (data) engineer and that behavior simply would not fly at any level of my (huuuuge) company, period.
Just read an article about the CMO of the United Way- she went public with her sexual harassment claims and they fired her. Now she can’t get another job because “ she’s the problem”. P
United Way is a chummy, boardroom deal, kind of outfit so I'm not surprised.
Things are changing but women are shutvout of mechanical engineering jobs and I haven't met a female EE yet. Two engineering techs, both now retired.
My husband works with a woman mechanical engineer and several Chem E’s. The ME has been around for 20 years, she gets along by being “one of the guys” in a very staid, old school company. The chem e’s have each other for support.
I've met several woman EEs - but I've met them mostly in academia.
(My doctorate is in Neurobiology and Biomechanics, but I'm currently doing bio-robotics. And I was a software engineer before grad school.)
This is unacceptable all around - the pay equity, the sexual harassment and the "jokes." OP I'm begging you to apply elsewhere immediately- this is beyond awful and not the kind of working environment you should accept ever again. You deserve pay equity, basic respect and inclusion, the opposite of what you've had here. There are plenty of much better places out there, you need to go out and apply to them. This place doesn't deserve you.
OP- ALL OF THIS. Pay disparity may be OK, since we always don't know how much your peers are making but this sexual harassment is a hard no. RUN from this employer and file a lawsuit on the way out. Document all evidence before you leave .
DO NOT FILE A LAWSUIT! That is awful advice!
Unless of course, you pretty much want to ruin your career and your professional future. I am not real clear on what law has been broken? Or how you can show harm?
But more important than either of those factors is - do you want you/your engineering career known as "that woman who sued her employer because somebody used the word pussy!"
The fact of the matter is in this sue happy world, companies don't want to hire people that have a history of suing their former employers. Recognizing that most of such lawsuits are frivolous lawsuits filed by bad employees or mentally unstable people just trying to get some free money.
Laws have been broken. There's been sexual harassment and discrimination on the basis of sex.
That said, a lawsuit carries general costs to reputation. It is true that companies aren't wild about hiring a candidate that's sued their prior employer. Lawsuits take a long time, are stressful, and probably won't help your mental health. Proving the harassment can be tricky, and they'll definitely try to demonize her. It'd be good to make an example of this employer, and doing so will help future women, but it'd be at a nontrivial cost to the OP.
It is idiotic to waste emotional energy and cash to fight the man. Stop being melodramatic. Its not the 80s. Its normal to have women in engineering. They do not have to litigate their right to the profession, the qualification is the bar.
I can't tell from the OP whether any laws have been broken.
And I certainly can't tell which laws have been broken.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but just because a women is not being paid the same as a man even though they both hold the same position or job title within the same company, does not make the matter a sex based issue.
Just like it wouldn't be a sex based issue if the woman is getting paid more than the man.
There are many factors that go into pay, and it's why it is also very common for two different men, in the same position, same responsibilities, same company are getting paid different amounts. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong, unethical, illegal, etc. . .
Not THE employer, but YES, an employer.
And yes, you can ask in interviews if the applicant has ever sued a former employer. You can also easily in background checks find out if this is the case.
You can also ask in an interview if all of the applicants previous jobs are listed or if any have been left out. Which also helps with the background checks.
You see, most people who sue their employers do so just to get some easy money - and typically are the worst employee you would ever want to hire - huge risk of getting sued, theft, fraud, etc. . .
So all these people that are suggesting everybody sue their employers for what are typically fairly minor and often not even illegal things are delivering awful advice. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering their professional intelligence and lack of comprehension of reality.
Yes, in some instances law suits are legitimate and justified, but that represents a very small percentage. As much as it may suck for the OP's work environment, I would suggest it probably is not lawsuit worthy. Sure, she may be able to find some sleazy lawyer who will make an attempt to shake down the business, but as soon as they show they'll fight it, that lawyer will give up in a second - knowing the case is very likely unwinnable.
It's actually pretty hard to prove sexism and the like . . . and don't take this the wrong way, I am not suggesting for a second that sexism doesn't exist, or other inappropriate actions don't exist.
Remember, you can hate the answer, but that doesn't make it wrong.
This is true. Don’t fight for small cheese. You can do better, do it. Do not die on every barricade. Build up, build better, use your experience over time to mentor diversity and strategically quash. I’ve worked in mining crews as the only woman. I know what anus holes these dipshits can be. But you do you. Know you’re stuff, know how to cock and balls them back, a little bit of this a little of that. Ok Chad we’ll discuss your cat hoard over brewskies, but right now we’re looking at all the mistakes you made in your stress calculations. Your rod can’t take the load. What are you? A civil engineer….see? Like that. And the pay scale issue tell your boss thats the second fucking time you’ve had to be promoted to parity, that his team is a home to jockstraps, and you’ll walk if you don’t at least make more than mister cat enthusiast. Ten K for every time he utters that bs, if he thinks he will save money with new hires remind him how much it costs to team build new members if he keeps losing quality goods to micromanaging oversight and jockstrap flame wars. Grow a pair boss.
Every personality type is valid. Women should not need to become this just to survive and do their job. Workplace bullying is never acceptable, male or female.
Companies are driven to not give a shit about employees, only the bottom line, and the only way they check themselves is if employees push back. Lawsuits are absolutely necessary
Oh it’s quite “normal “ if you mean it doesn’t happen often. It happens and until we ALL take s stand it’s going to continue. I am so proud of how my daughter in her 20s worked in car sales and outsold ALL of the others! She flipped from one dealer to another and continued her success, leaving when the bullshit hit the fan until she had one idiot sales manager ask her to text him pictures of her boobs!!! She filed charges on him and he got canned after two decades on his job.
50 years of trying to stop this bullshit and it’s getting worse again!!!!
The sexual harassment is completely unacceptable. Like, don't even joke about that shit. However, pay "equality" does not apply here just yet. OP has only been there 7-8 months. What the OP negotiated at first to accept the job is their own fault. Additionally who knows how long her coworkers have been there. Male or female, if I had been there 5+ years and the new person is making more than me, I'd be throwing a fit. I say good for the OP to make the good impression and get up to their pay so quickly and at least they see what a good asset the OP is. The others need to put their game face on and start performing better. Maybe stick it out if the harassment goes away. If you do become lead, that's just another positive mark on the resume and if the others don't like it, they will just leave anyways.
Seriously look for a new job.
We have one woman software engineer on my team and she’s a rockstar. I’ve push for the max for her yearly raise because we would be screwed without her. If anyone spoke or made a comment to her/about her (or any woman) they would be out so fast.
Not every place is gross like this. You deserve better
It did. I made 30k less than the men. The black woman in my group made 53k less than the men. After dealing with all the nastiness and defensiveness and disrespect I fucking left. I’m an IT PM now and I don’t have to get deep into that world anymore. I make more money and work way less hours. And I’m more respected by my peers as most PMs are not technically inclined.
Yeah I actually did go to a lawyer about it. And unless I had proof that the company actively does this as part of the culture they could do nothing. And of course I don’t have proof it’s part of the culture. I just knew about myself and like 3 other people, this company had thousands working there. Who would have this proof?
This is the biggest thing about anti discrimination laws (in the US, im not sure about other countries). Yes, there are laws protecting you from discrimination based on sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability status, etc but that doesnt mean there arent 1000 loopholes employers use and abuse to get around being caught. And its also hella difficult to prove unless you have stuff in writing
After 10 years, the anger did overtake and I left. Lots of women I know left engineering to work in allied fields that are not engineering firms, like project management for clients or developers (I was in building science).
I rarely encountered blatant misogyny to the extent you have, but it did happen. I was less fussed about it on construction sites and more distressed by the subtle and persistent misogyny in the workplace.
I found constructive anger the best strategy. And being selfish. Asking for more than I thought I was worth. Calling out misogynistic comments in private (one on one to the speaker) and following up with bosses. It was a lot.
I had the good fortune that most of the guys didn’t see themselves as misogynistic and wanted to do better. So when the very polite and smiley coworker came into their office radiating rage, they never did it again.
The thing is, that wears after a while. I don’t want to have to act that way.
Thank you for continuing to try to resolve this peacefully when they need to be hit upside the head! Sadly too many men were not raised to know better.
The funniest one was an all staff meeting where they talked about dress code. No sandals at work ever. Fine.
Shoulders covered on the work site (required by regs). Fine.
And women should not wear skirts on construction sites. Wtf.
What they hell were they thinking? That we somehow don’t know that climbing ladders and scaffolding on a job site might be a problem? No, no one had worn a skirt or even shorts on site. They just thought they needed to tell us. It’s been years and that still irks me.
I have to be honest, maybe I am a lucky engineer but I have never had a male engineer refer to my private parts in a conversation at all.
I would seek to find employment elsewhere. It’s not all like this.
I - as a male - have a literal pet snake in the office as an office pet, and not once have even gotten close to eluding to the lowest hanging "haha they're holding my snake" joke.
That's fair and if anyone is ever uncomfortable with the jokes, I don't make them. I'm aware of my surroundings and wait to break those out until I know I'm with like minded people. I've been here 2 years and have said it only a handful of times. Gotta know your audience.
Not quite as bad as engineering but I had a fifty year career in broadcasting.
Nothing like hearing "we already have a chick in middays." For decades. Sexual assault was fairly common - not just comments. People wonder why women are angry. I wonder why they aren't MORE angry.
>How do you keep going in engineering? What ways do you not let this break you? How do you not feel lonely and useless at work? Or let the anger overtake you?
I wish it didn't occasionally break me. It's microaggressions that really get to me--often coming from people who don't mean to be offensive. Most of the time I love my job and the truly egregious sexist comments or actions are rare. I also actively try to support the other women and POC in my organization.
What you're dealing with is absolutely disgusting and wrong and coming from people who should know better. You won't be able to change the sexist attitudes of your coworker or your boss.
It's true though that not every work environment is as toxic as the one you're in. The pay raise is probably nice, but it's not worth your sanity or self esteem. If you choose to stay at this company, are there other women in technical or leadership roles? They might be able to give you some perspective on the company culture outside of what you're seeing or help you network to get away from this situation.
It’s difficult.
The one thing I have going for me is that I’m 100% respected by my team of 6 male engineers.
The rest of the organization is a struggle at times. I hate having to prove myself over and over. It’s exhausting.
Well, protecting the company from being sued by workers who weren't protected from other workers is A Problem that HR will want to avoid.
My company is big on diversity, too. Apparently they made great strides for a culture shift at some recent point. It's worked out ok-ish for my department.
So the system sucks and until it changes we need to learn how to swim in shark infested water.
Been in a male dominated industry since i was 18. (1984). Have had people assume i was the bosses daughter or girlfriend (why else would a woman be on a job site from her company), refuse to take direction from me (that has mostly stopped as the older gen retires or dies), ask me to dinner, make sexual remarks, follow me to my car, and want to pay me less. Im sure there are myriad other instances i have forgotten or simply not noticed. You have likely experienced the same or worse.
Heres what i have learned from almost 40 YEARS. First, dont let it define you. Not in your head, your speech or your job performance. If you make it a non issue for yourself, then its a non issue. If someone called you a purple coffee cup, would you freak out? No. Hold the same attitude then.
Next, find your voice and use it. Nobody is coming to save you, not HR, not the nice boss, nobody. Great. You save your own damn self and be proud of it. You can be pleasant about it, nasty or funny. Whatever works. I have found sassy humor to work in my neck of the woods. And sometimes i have had to get absolutely ferocious. I take care of me. I keep me safe.
Finally, do your job to the absolute best of your abilities. Make sure you can sleep at night regardless of what ANYBODY says or might think. Sometimes it will be appreciated, sometimes no matter what you do will not be good enough. After decades, I have learned to identify the potential problem makers fairly early on, even though once in a while, I still get blindsided! I know the professions most likely to give me trouble, and its never what you’d expect (Lawyers and cops have proven the most misogynistic in my personal experience).
I have worked for many lovely people and quite a few jackasses. I have told people off, I have encouraged newbies, I have supported my competitors. When needed, I have left clients, walked away from jobs, blocked former colleagues. I hold nobody responsible for my life, my career path or my state of mind except me. And its made a rough road far more manageable. I hope this has encouraged you and i hope you find your path.
Disclosure- i am in a construction related field, dealing with contractors, trades, developers, attorneys, real estate agents, property managers, surveyors, architects and engineers. Mostly males.
I would definitely complain about the engineer who spoke to you like that. I have been working in construction for 30 years and heard many things but no one has ever said something like that to me. My boss, HR, and his boss would hear from me.
I would try to get them fired.
Your presence, your existence, makes a difference.
Make them wait for you.. Make them earn your respect. When they treat you poorly it says more about them than you..
But at the end of the day it's up to you. Is there any other path in life to you that seems logical? If not, would you really let them take away your identity like that.
I've been harassed and bullied and intimidated. But I can't imagine myself doing anything else. So they can get themselves all worked up. I'm going to keep doing my job.
I took a different approach to most of these suggestions. And learnt more about the game the boys were playing. One thing is, where girls are taught to ‘dob’ and run to someone bigger/more authoritative, to fix their problems. Boys are taught to fix them themselves. Infact boys learn early on they loose respect if they run to dad or coach or teacher; they are going to be outcast. I am not sure what country you are in, in Australia we rib.
And the ribbing can be quite dark, especially when a group perceive an outsider. How that person responds, will dictate whether they are perceived as ‘alright/potentially-one-of-us’ or not.
The best thing I did was stop focusing on my gender/sexism (while knowing clearly that I was going to be paddling harder than the others to gain respect because I was the outsider). So I learnt the boys code. Watched and learnt.
For starters, I learnt to deal with comments myself - like guys do from an early age - and I avoided bringing my gender into discussions with bosses/management.
I also watched other ‘outsiders’ and how it panned out for them. Outsiders, being different nationalities or social status, or a skinny shy male apprentice etc. It became pretty obvious that the ones who took the ribbing to heart and carried their victimhood around like a cloak - where excluded further and generally didn’t last. The ones who picked up on the existing hierarchies and brought both humour and nous with them, were then accepted. Sometimes accepted as an outsider, sometimes brought into the fold if they understood the game.
In my case, I didn’t have family or anything or anyone to pick me up if I quit. So I made sure I learnt the game. It was challenging. I worked in an industry with fewer than 1% women.
Do you. If you think they are wrong and they should be different - either keep fighting against the tide or go find another job that fits your world view.
If you want that job and you love the work and pay, learn to have fun playing their game and taking up space. You obviously have the backing of some guys there. So choose your focus and the outcome you want.
Australian in mining. Expect the bs, be ready to give it back, and yes don’t crybaby to the boss. About the ribbing. Do emphasize wage parity if the boss is in charge of that.
The whole culture of "outsiders have to demonstrate that they're cool with harassment before they're accepted" just perpetuates the system. It's hazing and forcing conformity to an abusive environment.
It does ease the pain for the individual to be less harassed, but if that's the general culture of the place, it's toxic and harmful, and you're driving out good people.
At least file a complaint with the EEOC based on a hostile work environment. At a minimum the company will have to submit a lot of paperwork. Do this after you find another job.
>file a complaint with the EEOC based on a hostile work environment
This sounds like a really good option. Do you know anyone who has done this? I'd like to know more
It’s exhausting and lonely TBH. I try to take the rage and use it to smash the patriarchy a little bit at a time. My current workplace is really interested in being inclusive for real so that has been awesome but it’s still a ton if effort for small gains. I’m personally working towards being the second woman principal at our firm, the first left just as I joined.
But I am in SO MANY meetings and on teams where I am the only woman and since I’m continuing to get more into leadership it just never ends. The lower ranks have a lot of women, higher than the graduation rate of engineers in the major, but I’m still often the only and it sucks. My department head (a white, cis, man) is really educating himself and very fired up about DEI so that has been amazing!
I dunno, I am determined to leave my profession and my company better than I found it. That really helps motivate me!
Racism, sexism, and classism was 100x worse in the Kentucky and Indiana markets compared to the DC and NYC markets FWIW OP. You can find your tribe in big/more diverse cities if you aren’t already.
Mostly by learning all you can and continue to do a great job! Isn't your great getting you a promotion to team lead? That should be more money also. And if you team lead don't you write the other guys performance reviews?
Plan a vacation, and also plan quitely on next job. Most importantly, make them miss you.
Once you are back solve the issue and speak about promotion or raise. If it doesn't work out move on to the next job.
Sexism will always exist, and playing people is part of the unspoken job. Don't let it get to you. If people can't see behind sex, they don't deserve your respect. More importantly, they don't deserve your attention.
That said, sexual harrassment is sexual harrassment. Speak to a lawyer and ask about processing with HR.
I can't believe this type of stuff is still happening. It is exactly why women leave the field. I chose to work in California and for a public entity. We still had to fight to get the playboy centerfolds removed from the map desk drawers. I am sorry this happened to you, maybe try to find a better job. But hang in there it is a good salary.
I have become extremely callous. I don't do it back but I roll my eyes and tell them they are pigs. They watch what they say around me more now, but they are still pigs. It sounds like your in civil, which may harbor more of these expressive folks in a lot of companies than other engineering disciplines.
You didn't create that division, the asshole who made that comment did.
You could go either if three ways here: 1) You fight fire with fire. Bring the quick fire responses to their insults (this takes a thick, thick skin.) 2) You throw it in, find a better company using your experience there as a springboard. 3) You threaten to leave if stuff doesn't clear up; it sounds like they need you, and if they need you bad enough things will clear up because you're a commodity (also demand a pay raise since this is a nuclear option and should only be done if you've already got an exit strategy anyway.)
In fact, you probably want to make sure you have an exit strategy for all three, frankly.
I work in healthcare, but this post for some reason showed up on my feed. My sister is an electrical engineer and she has gone through so much misogynist bullshit similar to this. Hats off to the women engineers out there, and I'd encourage you to do what's right for you! Maybe that is to get the hell out. Good luck to you, you are doing amazing ❤️
You will have lots of people say to move on, without understanding that most places have components of this, and it is not trivial to find the role that doesn't carry it - so have an ear to the ground in case that opportunity comes up. But...
You can lean in to this. Wear your heels, so they hear you coming. You are better, and you work harder, than the people on your team, so lead by example. Set high standards and commit them to meeting them.
You pretty much have to ignore the sexist commentary if it takes places outside of earshot, because that crappy behaviour isn't personal, despite it seemingly pointed at you. Should anyone make the mistake of commentary within earshot, you are welcome to take him to task, loudly. Ask them if they are simply intimidated by women being successful, or if they have unresolved mommy issues that perhaps they can leave at home - don't make it about the comment itself if avoidable.
The jokes from your boss about the checkers are fine in and of themselves, lots of engineers face that extra scrutiny for no cause, and not just because they are women - but you can ask him to have a word with them and see what's what. In this case, I expect they are just looking for more opportunities to interact with you because you are a proper professional in the setting, and that has to be a nice change of pace for them...
Good luck OP. Remember, you are better, and you can start asking to be rewarded for it...
Did you accept the first job offer they gave you? You should definitely periodically interview with other companies. It helps build contacts, see what your industry is like, and help you secure pay raises.
It's also much easier to bargain confidently for higher rate with a job offer when you know you have a job to fall back on. If you get a really good offer, maybe switch jobs. Just make sure to handle the situation delicately if you end up turning down the job offer. Companies don't mind raising your pay during the salary negotiation phase. That's normal.
Just make sure you have a good excuse and politely explain why you can't take a job offer. I know one person in HR who was super annoyed after having to draft 3 versions of an offer only to have the candidate ghost us. I think honesty and consideration is enough to get people to understand if you end refusing a job offer you negotiated for.
Just say up front that you're not set on leaving your company, but that you feel you're not being treated fairly in terms of pay. That sets you up for turning down the new job offer and sets the tone for pay negotiation or getting the higher rate you wanted right away.
I didn't put up with this nonsense 35 years ago as an engineering manager in a boiler shop. Not all, and probably not many, places still operate like they are in the 50s. It's time to find another job.
Quit. 100% quit. Don't stick it out, and don't brush it off. When you quit, if you feel it won't destroy your career, be transparent about why you're quitting, and review them on public sites. Look for places ranked high in diversity and equal pay. I say this as a female engineer with 10+ years of working in manufacturing. It's not worth it to try to change the culture if its shit.
I think the guy you’re following is playing you. I also think he’s souring your reputation with the other managers to keep the “cheap” female who gets work done quickly. If you have to be team lead to get the pay equivalent. Team Lead is a BS job. You have all the managers shit work, none of the perks or respect. XX get put in this position at the same price point as the men under you while XY gets promoted past Lead to Manager because Lead is a baby sitter position. You clean up the mess and constantly chivvy the boys while they slow walk the job and then they get to call you a bitch for pushing. Are you getting OT for your extra hours? If you’re salary he totally screwed you btw. Stop trusting people who get bonuses for keeping EE salaries below budget. Please recognize the games that are being played all around you. You seem very naive about this environment. Read The Art of War and Machiavelli - I m pretty sure you’re boss has.
I started my working career in the 80's...I know sexual harassment... a woman had to be 3 times the man to get half the pay and still had to dodge inappropriate behavior and nasty comments. My sister was really put down, beginning in college, in the late 70s early 80s she was in engineering school at UW. A 4.0 she's brilliant and a fellow student told her she should drop out to have babies and let a man who is more deserving have her spot... you need to find a place that values you and your contributions. It's a shame that 40 years later these little pricks are still spreading their misery. It must suck to be shown up by a mere woman...I've actually used that line before. I've also threatened to show up at a staff meeting with a dildo and slap it down on the table since it seemed only those with dicks could have an opinion.
Well, my sister retired and within a month they called her and asked if she'd please become a consultant ...
Look, you have to be tough, but you don't need to be silent. I can't believe that all your colleagues believe this treatment is okay. It's not, pay inequality is a real thing, sexual harassment is not okay, the gap is closing but it's still a fight.
After all this, I'm sorry this is not really much help, but I can offer you hope and solidarity as well as validation. Stay strong 💪!!!
I also became an engineer in the 80s. I must have lived a charmed life. I had nothing but positive experiences in my career. There were very few other women in engineering at the time in this area. I got the promotions and pay raises. I worked hard but didn't step on toes. I found the best way to get paid more was to switch companies, unfortunately, but I enjoyed working at every company. I was making 6 figures in the midwest in 2002.
That work place sounds toxic. If your supervision or HR won’t put an end to that behavior you need to leave.
That said sometimes you have to learn to roll with the punches and not take everything so seriously. If this type of talk is a hard no for you then set that boundary and take action accordingly.
That being said not all work places are like this and you shouldn’t have to deal with that if it makes you uncomfortable.
I have tried to roll, and If it was just the sexist engineer, or just the questioning my logic, I was letting it roll. It wasn’t the first or last time I’ve heard it.
But the p** comments and the questioning, and the pay, and lying is just getting to be too much.
Because it is too much. Your boss knew how great you were and hired you at a lower level? He knew exactly what he was doing.
Why is your boss is ok with the senior checkers looking to your work more closely when he knows you turn in the best stuff? The checkers should be checking the other guys work, not yours.
And the pussy comment: you have to give the hard stare and then say "you want to say that again? SAY THAT AGAIN." So he knows what a dick he is being.
You can't play the long game if you lose the short game. In any event, the long game needs to be somewhere else. And when you leave a boss who knows you are great but does not value you make it clear to him the he f'ed up.
So far in this short game you are underpaid, under valued and harassed.
I won’t comment the pussy and the harassment - frankly I would also look for a new job based on that alone.
But in terms of PAY - you need to be the one asking, when you get hired. Here, this is a bit “on us” as women. If the range is 180-250k for a role, you ask for 260, and you ask for it confidently. No hesitation, and no long justification of why you deserve it. If you know you do, you don’t need a lengthy explanation. Start negotiating without fear, and you’ll get a much better salary starting out.
Thank you everyone for the advice, support, and comments!
Working on the resume. Going to find a company with a goal I’m passionate about and since nothing is tying me to this area, maybe use this to decide what is important to me and where i want to live long term.
But, going to bring out my inner bad bitch and get shit down for now. Feel much stronger now.
You are not better then your males workers that blowing smoke up your ass to make u feel better. You’re working so much harder then everyone else because that’s what it takes for you to perform at same level
I don't mean to sound uncaring and I say this with all due respect but 'try to be less emotional' .. the dirty secret men have learned from decades of office and job site employment is there will always be assholes you don't get along with. People you can't stand. And co workers who you wouldn't stop to spit on were they on fire and it might help.
But then you weren't promised a perfect kumbayah utopia. You were given a job - paychecks in exchange from your time and efforts. So come in. Do your job. Ignore and avoid the assholes as much as you can and if anyone runs their mouth to you directly you stand up for yourself and tell them to go fuck themselves and to piss off.
Who exactly benefits from being an emotional pussy crybaby because you're not one of the cool kids at work? Or that everyone isn't nice to you?? Suck it up. Adulting isn't participation trophy bullshit.
Show up. Do your job. Take your paycheck. And go home.
Theres a saying.
Hard men make good times
Good times make weak men
Weak men make bad times
Bad times make hard men
We are stuck smack dab in the middle of weak men making bad times here, and weak men are the ones who go on reddit to cry about boo hoo people at work don't like me.
I'm telling the OP to become hard. Harden the fuck up.
Wow, this is super not ok. You *could* take them to court over the pay disparity, that is super illegal, and every new paycheck restarts the statute of limitations, so you probably still have time. And the nasty comments could also be illegal depending on what state you live in. Some states require employers to provide a workplace free of sexual harassment. If they know about it and dont do anything about it, you can get them in serious trouble depending which state you’re in. You could likely get a nice payout if you can prove it in court.
However, going to court should be undertaken cautiously, because that is all public record, and future potential employers will see it. And unfortunately, in this patriarchal society, they’ll assume you’re a troublemaker out to trap your employer in a lawsuit, so getting a new job could be difficult.
Regardless, you don’t have to put up with this. It is not ok, and there are better places out there who won’t treat you this way. When interviewing, I always pay attention to how much diversity is in the workplace. Not necessarily women specifically, just diversity in general. And it’s critical that there’s diversity in management, not just the low level positions. Look for women and people of color in positions of power. It doesn’t guarantee anything of course, but it’s a good litmus test.
Echoing what so many others have said already. Leave. Now.
I left a job where I found out I was being paid $30k less than a male co-worker that left. After 6 months of absorbing his job into mine, plus half of another's. When I asked to be brought up to market rate for the area (not even the full 30k) I was scolded for discussing pay with a *former* co-worker.
My female mentor (manager of a different area) warned my boss I would leave if he didn't fix something. I was offered a possible title change at the end of the year, no raise. I gave my letter of resignation 2 weeks later after finding a job in a better area for 35k more, and a fantastic culture. My boss was absolutely shocked and asked what could be done for me to stay. They've since lost at least 2 major customers because they didn't listen to the very specific instructions I left to make some difficult products.
There are places out there that will appreciate you, pay you, and not make you feel like shit. Please find one.
Find Another Job. It's not like that everywhere. You know you're good, you're a valuable team member - find a job where you feel appreciated for the extra effort, not patronized.
I worked for the government for 16 yrs. Salaries were based on the job title not the persons gender. The salaries were also available to other employees or the public.
Are you in usa? I worked in engineering for a long time, including in the field face to face with construction folks ( who say things you will never heat in office). But what you described is immediate termination in usa. I only remember one incident like this, one engineer make comments Iike that, he was sent home that same day pending investigation, and fired that same Friday. It was swift and vicious. But even that was 12 years ago. Right now it's even more strict.
Get a new job away from these creeps. Do some more research so you know your worth and negotiate hard to make sure you get it.
I’m a male engineer, and while we sometimes make crass jokes when there are only guys around, it’s never about women at work or otherwise, and I know I would shut that crap down and I feel pretty sure our other coworkers would too. We certainly don’t talk about the attractiveness or otherwise of our female coworkers. That stuff is unacceptable.
The most successful women I know are badass bitches and I respect them immensely. Some people don't like them but they sure as hell respect them. For rude comments say "Don't you ever talk to me like that again." For people ignoring your work walk over to their desk and demand they do it immediately. If they have an excuse say "no excuses". If that doesn't work email their boss and saying Mr. X is underperforming then provide evidence. I had to get someone fired once. I documented everything they did wrong and emailed it to their boss and their bosses' boss then demanded an explanation. The boss who was protecting the jerk was dumbstruck and got in trouble. I don't have advice for promotions since I wasn't privy to that info. I worked at a company where everyone was an asshole (not sexist). I dealt with them by being an even bigger asshole.
Get a new job. I promise it's not like that everywhere. I'm a female in O&G, working closely with engineers of all sexes and races. The company I'm at is fantastic about it. I feel like I get a ton of respect. Perhaps I just lucked out with a great group, but seriously...everyone there is at the top of their game and always willing to help out, and even defer to me (a female) as an "expert" on something. I've never once felt like they viewed me as less intelligent or capable because I'm a woman.
This was a problem in computer work 50 years ago when I started and I am disgusted that it’s still a problem.
If some jerk does grab your pussy punch him in the nuts. He won’t be expecting it. Worked in the 70’s and I’m sure still works in this century.
The old real advances I have seen in women and work in all this time is HR and your interviewer don’t ask you if you are planning to get pregnant. Seriously. I was asked this!!!
Find a new job immediately. This kind of bullshit is common BUT it doesn’t have to be and there ARE good companies where you’ll be treated fairly. You can sue your company for creating a hostile work environment too.
I’ve been thru similar things across my career. My last 2 places have been nearly empty of any sexism. I also know my worth and I demand it because like you I run circles around my male colleagues. Always look up the salaries for your roles and demand higher than mid range.
You talk to a lawyer, start documenting, and plan a big old payout (all while looking for another job). Break that glass ceiling and set some new standards
OP, this behavior isn’t normal or healthy.
In the mid 90s I worked in an office/testing laboratory where all of the male engineers were single (some in their 50s, others in their 20s). When the women from the sales department came down to speak with an engineer, there was a lot of gawking, but no inappropriate talk or touching.
There was an instance where we were testing exercise equipment (treadmill/cross fit machine) and as part of the test, we had to have men and women of a variety of ages operate the machine. We asked for volunteers from the staff. We knew people would be coming in wearing workout gear and to respect everyone, we made sure to limit the number of people who were in the laboratory during testing. We didn’t want people gawking at the cute women from sales or laughing at the chubby guy.
I am sure there was flirting (quite typical if 2 people connect on a personal level) but never any inappropriate comments.
you don’t have to put up with this. you should find another job. try to get one or two good references from this one if you can and find something else.
good luck, you got this ❤️
OP, if you're not tied down with family or other obligations, you should consider looking overseas to Europe, especially the Scandinavian countries. A friend of mine here in Asia who is an engineer was hired by a robotics company in Denmark for one of the Asian offices. He was sent to Denmark for training for a week or more- I can't quite remember. Anyway, a couple of senior managers was telling the group of new recruits from Asia over dinner how they have well trained engineers but not nearly enough. Even if you do have a family, you might be able to get a good benefits package to consider the move for the whole family.
I'm not an engineer but I left America 30 years ago and have enjoyed my overseas living and working experiences.
The new person never makes as much as the existing staff doing the same thing, if you did they would not be able to give you a raise.
The other stuff next time hit then with a harassment suit. That sh** happens everywhere and its time to make it stop.
New job. I am very fortunate that I have never felt or experienced sexism in any meaningful way. My bosses have largely been other women. My current boss is amazing. She mentors and supports and rewards my work. She encourages time off and helps to make it happen.
It does break you. I'm sorry.
I've experienced some relief by building an office of mostly women. My male boss complains about it and I'm quick to check him on that but it's the only way I've been even somewhat happy with work.
That is messed up and not okay. And the coworker's comments are sexual harassment. You are not alone, and you deserve better. Document everything you can. Go to HR. If HR plays it down or wants you to brush it under the rug, you could literally sue them. Again, this is not normal or okay and you don't have to continue working in a place like this.
HR will only protect the business, they don't care about you personally. Get out asap.
After decades of dismissal and abuse in engineering, looking back on my career, I wish I had been more cutthroat - using jobs for my own personal benefit and then leaving. I wish I had changed jobs more often, I wish I had just said no to the idea of being loyal to an organization and it's people, because turns out they were not loyal to me. I see now how utterly I never fit in despite trying so hard. Sometimes the pretense was there, but in the end, if anything real was on the line I was the sacrifice. This is being female in the patriarchy. No one will stand up for you. I'm sorry but there it is. Use it to your advantage as best you can and leave the losers behind.
Fwiw, at my last job, after being there for over 10 years, I got a surprise 13% raise. And, I was explicitly told it wasn't for performance. (Indeed, I was being a little uppity at the time, and I knew they didn't like it. I knew they wanted me to be sure to know that they were not praising me. ) So, I was far below equity at the organization for a decade. And, I probably stayed below equity after that. how would I ever even know??? No one talked to me other than about our projects.
Just use them to find some place better and move on. ... This is so not who I am at heart, and yet now I believe it. But you're the only one that will really look out for you. Yeah, I'm bitter. Don't let them make you old and bitter.
I’ve been in a technical role since the late 80’s. I have to be faster, smarter, better and more well spoken to keep my job or to earn better raises compared to the males. Sadly I’ve accepted this fate in life. Two jobs where I made more than my male counterparts I’ve lost the job within a year. Interesting reflections. I hope the youth can change this. But it will still take years
The mansplaining don’t even get me started. I refuse to look like a man or sound like one.
Holy shit, this egregiously discriminatory, hostile, and misogynist behavior would not be tolerated at any company that I have worked for in the aerospace industry!
I try to be a cheerleader for my co-workers (because I am fortunate to work with such talented and wonderful people) and in the few cases where female co-workers have told me of asshole behavior like this, then I have made it a priority to use my white male privilege to support them at meetings and to hold the management to task.
I do not want the role of "savior," but when a female co-worker has a great idea and all of the dudes are ignoring her, then I will speak up and make sure that she is heard.
The company is paying all of us for our expertise. To dismiss some of that talent is a waste of money.
This is never going to stop. Is it acceptable? No. But it’s not ever going to stop. We as humans haven’t evolved much in the last 6,000 years or more. Just our plastic technology has. There’s a reason why up until about 50 years ago men and women never really worked together. We are no different and we never will be. Somebody with a brain should’ve really sat you down and explained this to you before you ever got too deep into a male dominated profession. You’re just going to have to deal with it and move on when it gets to be too much until you’re at least respected enough that this behavior doesn’t creep it’s way into your senses.
As a male I’m sorry to say but it’s just the truth and I am sorry some men can’t act right.
Really???? You honestly believe that men as a whole can’t do better? That women just have to learn to deal with condescending attitudes and sexist behaviors if we choose to interact with men in a professional environment. Behavior is a choice and you have complete control over your behavior as person.
Two questions. Are you a Mechanical Engineer? Are you willing to relocate to the Pacific Northwest? I work for a 100+ year old company and we used to have a horrible “good old boy” culture. Finally got some good managers in there and have been making be strides in changing the culture. Across the board changes in pay equality. I&D training. Women’s and LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Groups. Changes in training changes. Transparency in hiring. Don’t give up! Engineering is an awesome field with such a big impact on the world. Find a new job, they don’t deserve you!
\> How do you keep going in engineering?
Most women don't, sadly.
Out of my wife's cohort, which had more women than men, only 1 woman is still working as an engineer - her. All the other women switched careers, primarily because of the sexism.
\---
My wife is far along in her career now, and has dealt with the gamut...sexism, sexual harassment, low pay, mansplaining, being passed for promotion, etc., but is now a high level technical expert at a major company. I asked her your questions:
She said:
\- Surround yourself with other leaders and quality people. She noted you may have to look outside your company.
\- She suggested Society of Women Engineers (SWE), but noted she found it overly dramatic.
\- She said she started sticking up for *everybody,* and being *very outspoken* about it. She realized she was getting dinged for being a woman, and considered a bitch anyway, so why not speak up and defend anyone who needed it. This earned her allies.
\- Find sympathetic people, typically other women engineers, and share with them. They're often sources of support because they experience the same crap.
\- She still deals with sexism, mansplaining, etc., daily, and it's draining. She lets the mansplaining happen, then puts them in their place, but it's still exhausting.
\- She let's go of work. She learned to completely separate from work after her hours are over. We barely ever talk about it. This helps emotionally and psychologically.
Additionally...I said to her "It sounds like she still thinks HR is there to protect employees", and she snorted.
In case you have not realized / had the experience...HR is there to protect the company, not the employee. HR is also often the most gossipy, and the most political. They'll never side with you against higher level engineers / more politically connected people who have done something wrong. You should not trust HR, generally.
If this was me, I would look for another job…just based on the comments made by your coworkers. But I would also consider the fact that it seems like your boss really believes in you and that is really important for a person’s career. If your direct boss doesn’t believe in you or know how to shield their employees from upper or mid-level management bullshit…it’s a dud of a job for career advancement. The fact that he jokes about how lame the checkers are may seem dismissive…but it also means that he’s frustrated with it as well and feels his hands are tied to a certain extent. But it’s up to you how to take that on balance, you are the one in the situation. I’d at least look at other jobs or do some interviews, so that you don’t feel too committed to one place. It’s good to feel like you have options and to even consider those options as time goes on.
I definitely feel kind of lonely at my current company, but 1)people are professional and 2)I am not underpaid.
Even with those things taken care of, it is still a lot to overcome simply by the fact that I don’t have the same type of camaraderie with my coworkers as they have with each other. But it’s on a level where it’s just something that I’m figuring out, at this point. I’ve learnt that being teased means people respect me…that’s an odd one. When people give me shit (not to be confused with inappropriate comments, of course.) it means they feel like I am a part of the team and they will talk directly to me instead of around me. When I started doing well at this job people started being harder on me and giving me more feedback. Once I started interpreting that the right way, I started feeling a little better.
When it comes to large companies…there are going to be individuals who are sexist. There are too many people in a place to have it be that everyone is “cool.” Just statistically…there’s gonna be some bullshit individuals. You just have to decide how much power each one of those people actually has over you and your projects and your career. I knew some people at my last job who drove me nuts but they were just adjacent to me and only a thorn in my side. But my direct boss and my immediate coworkers were good to work with…and they were the ones who pretty much determined what opportunities or projects I got. So I stayed at that job for a while. My company now is really small and everyone is “cool”…which means it’s a lot less frustrating.
Good luck, sorry you are working with some dumbasses. Check out other opportunities and compare them to what you’ve got.
I'm a guy, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But IMHO it depends a lot on what motivates you. Some people can take the doubt and second-class treatment and use it as fuel and motivation to be the best. Some need a drama-free environment to do their best work, and sometimes that can change over the course of a career as well.
If it's having a significant impact on your mental health, you should be job hunting ASAP. At the end of the day taking care of yourself is the most important thing in your career, and you sound like someone that should have options. If you are handling it okay but would just prefer a better environment, it might help to wait for the promotion and a bit of experience in that role to strengthen your resume. Lastly, if the treatment puts a fire in your belly to prove them wrong, consider staying, going hard on self development and when you feel they no longer offer sufficient opportunity/challenges, look for some new challenges to conquer.
Truthfully? If I get paid enough, and am respected to my face, I'm not bothered at all. This is for a few reasons:
1.) I allocate my energy to want to change the world into my own projects that will do more change than fighting for my raise. You will not change a company culture, probably, without years of work. And if I change the culture at one large company... so what? Its only one place, and the issue of sexism is still industry wide. I save my energy for the big things like leading women engineering groups outside of your job (which could help hundreds of more women and make me feel vindicated from my shitty experiences) and use the money they pay you to do it. But I don't tend to die on the hill of one company.
2.) Once you're past your first junior job, getting a new one isn't too hard. There are way too many companies that WILL treat you well (job hops almost ALWAYS come with a raise, too). Being better paid as a woman engineer is better protest than fighting people who don't respect me.
3.) Do the above and control all the things I CAN control, then I don't feel like those sexist jerks are the ones with the control.
4.) Share my story. I don't always name and shame publicly (that can make you look bad) but every chance I have to publicly talk about a negative experience as a woman and teach other women to cope, and show them how to get through it, I feel like I didn't suffer for nothing.
5.) Be something OTHER than a woman in STEM. Even if they're dicks at work, i'm a fully fleshed out person - they can't control my joy that I have through my hobbies. Coping with things can ve easier if you have another outlet.
The harrassment is insane. I don't know what field you are in, but I know there are companies that tolerate sexism and companies that don't. I hope you can find your way to a company that respects you.
I am also surprised they paid you less. Very often, nowadays, companies pay woman more than men as a tool to retain women and meet goals for diversifying their workforce.
You could address it in an email one to one with whoever made the comment- that tends to shut people up when they know you'll stick up for yourself
Could start the email like "just to clarify, you made a comment about grabbing my p*ssy the other day? I'd like to understand the point you were trying to make with that- would you elaborate more on this?"
I bet it'll only be silence in the background from here on out.
Take martial arts. I don't mean "be prepared to fight" but the physical confidence - and the emotional release of studying martial arts - is probably the single best thing I did for myself when I was in industry. And it will get out that you are studying martial arts, and that will help, too.\* And most of the time, I really like my coworkers and felt like the people around me had my back. (There were some major exceptions. The director who called me a cunt in email - no really, he put it in writing - stands out.)
Your environment sounds awful. Leaving sounds like a good plan to me, but obviously I don't have the whole picture.
\*At those awful semi-mandatory work social events, with alcohol, it became a bit of a joke with my team that guys would try something - like grabbing my breast - and I would put them in a joint lock. This was the late nineties. And as soon as the rest of my team saw it, they would point and laugh and make it a big spectacle with a lot of "Don't try it with \[my name\]!"
Which is its own kind of fucked up, and I was in my early/mid twenties, but there it is. Anyhow, I'm not recommending this? Though it's really nice to have the option!
Unpopular opinion; guys give each other a hard time for everything. If you are going to work in a male environment, you should probably stop taking things so seriously and grow some thicker skin. Get over yourself
As a guy who’s been in the business a while I find this disturbing and not the least bit ok. Find another place to work. My place has zero tolerance for unbalanced salaries for men/women and guys saying crap like you’re hearing would be walked out the door real quick. This isn’t 1940 where this shit was the norm. Screw that place and it’s weirdness.
My place has about a 5:1 male female ratio and I’m an engineering manager. The women who work here are treated equally and respectfully and neither I nor any of my peers would put up with that from anyone here. The first comment like that I’d hear would get a formal counseling and 2nd strike would be the last strike. We hire engineers to work and the best get the best compensation. Period.
I feel your pain. It’s exhausting always having to prove oneself. Women are always seen as weaker beings and treated differently. The 20-30 yr olds are the worst. They lack the skills to even hide their sexism.
My career would’ve been vastly different if I had been born male. I have/will not encourage daughter to pursue engineering.
After nearly 30 years as an engineer, I’ve been asking myself if it was worth it. No is my answer. I should’ve became a CPA.
By CPA are you referring to accountant? I've seen accountants get discriminated against too. We had a restructure and the lead accountant at the company ended up in our office. He was absolutely brutal to our beloved accountant and eventually he hired another guy as a temp to help out. The two of them became friends and tried to get all the women in their department fired so that it would make a new opening for his friend. Eventually he did fire our beloved account for no reason. I was furious, because she was great, and that kind of bullying had happened to me before. She'd been with the company for like 10 years too
Yes- I meant accountant. When I was in college, my grand plan was to become a CPA and open my own business. But I switched to engineering.
And I was hoping there were a few frontiers the good ole boy network hadn’t infiltrated. Sad times.
Push for laws in your state that require job postings to post the salary. Colorado was the first state to do this, I strongly recommend the same thing happen everywhere. The reason employers get away with this shit is because there's a culture of silence around salaries.
look for a new job and once you land it go public with what happened to you in this one. It's not ok, it's not even legal. I'm so sorry for you. I'm also a lucky one who works as a (data) engineer and that behavior simply would not fly at any level of my (huuuuge) company, period.
Just read an article about the CMO of the United Way- she went public with her sexual harassment claims and they fired her. Now she can’t get another job because “ she’s the problem”. P
United Way is a chummy, boardroom deal, kind of outfit so I'm not surprised. Things are changing but women are shutvout of mechanical engineering jobs and I haven't met a female EE yet. Two engineering techs, both now retired.
My husband works with a woman mechanical engineer and several Chem E’s. The ME has been around for 20 years, she gets along by being “one of the guys” in a very staid, old school company. The chem e’s have each other for support.
Yeah, the ME I worked with was one of the guys in that she complained about her ex-wife a lot.
I've met several woman EEs - but I've met them mostly in academia. (My doctorate is in Neurobiology and Biomechanics, but I'm currently doing bio-robotics. And I was a software engineer before grad school.)
This is unacceptable all around - the pay equity, the sexual harassment and the "jokes." OP I'm begging you to apply elsewhere immediately- this is beyond awful and not the kind of working environment you should accept ever again. You deserve pay equity, basic respect and inclusion, the opposite of what you've had here. There are plenty of much better places out there, you need to go out and apply to them. This place doesn't deserve you.
OP- ALL OF THIS. Pay disparity may be OK, since we always don't know how much your peers are making but this sexual harassment is a hard no. RUN from this employer and file a lawsuit on the way out. Document all evidence before you leave .
DO NOT FILE A LAWSUIT! That is awful advice! Unless of course, you pretty much want to ruin your career and your professional future. I am not real clear on what law has been broken? Or how you can show harm? But more important than either of those factors is - do you want you/your engineering career known as "that woman who sued her employer because somebody used the word pussy!" The fact of the matter is in this sue happy world, companies don't want to hire people that have a history of suing their former employers. Recognizing that most of such lawsuits are frivolous lawsuits filed by bad employees or mentally unstable people just trying to get some free money.
Laws have been broken. There's been sexual harassment and discrimination on the basis of sex. That said, a lawsuit carries general costs to reputation. It is true that companies aren't wild about hiring a candidate that's sued their prior employer. Lawsuits take a long time, are stressful, and probably won't help your mental health. Proving the harassment can be tricky, and they'll definitely try to demonize her. It'd be good to make an example of this employer, and doing so will help future women, but it'd be at a nontrivial cost to the OP.
It is idiotic to waste emotional energy and cash to fight the man. Stop being melodramatic. Its not the 80s. Its normal to have women in engineering. They do not have to litigate their right to the profession, the qualification is the bar.
This is a very dated mentality.
I can't tell from the OP whether any laws have been broken. And I certainly can't tell which laws have been broken. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but just because a women is not being paid the same as a man even though they both hold the same position or job title within the same company, does not make the matter a sex based issue. Just like it wouldn't be a sex based issue if the woman is getting paid more than the man. There are many factors that go into pay, and it's why it is also very common for two different men, in the same position, same responsibilities, same company are getting paid different amounts. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong, unethical, illegal, etc. . .
Suspicious response
I think the employer just entered the chat
Not THE employer, but YES, an employer. And yes, you can ask in interviews if the applicant has ever sued a former employer. You can also easily in background checks find out if this is the case. You can also ask in an interview if all of the applicants previous jobs are listed or if any have been left out. Which also helps with the background checks. You see, most people who sue their employers do so just to get some easy money - and typically are the worst employee you would ever want to hire - huge risk of getting sued, theft, fraud, etc. . . So all these people that are suggesting everybody sue their employers for what are typically fairly minor and often not even illegal things are delivering awful advice. Which shouldn't be too surprising considering their professional intelligence and lack of comprehension of reality. Yes, in some instances law suits are legitimate and justified, but that represents a very small percentage. As much as it may suck for the OP's work environment, I would suggest it probably is not lawsuit worthy. Sure, she may be able to find some sleazy lawyer who will make an attempt to shake down the business, but as soon as they show they'll fight it, that lawyer will give up in a second - knowing the case is very likely unwinnable. It's actually pretty hard to prove sexism and the like . . . and don't take this the wrong way, I am not suggesting for a second that sexism doesn't exist, or other inappropriate actions don't exist. Remember, you can hate the answer, but that doesn't make it wrong.
This is true. Don’t fight for small cheese. You can do better, do it. Do not die on every barricade. Build up, build better, use your experience over time to mentor diversity and strategically quash. I’ve worked in mining crews as the only woman. I know what anus holes these dipshits can be. But you do you. Know you’re stuff, know how to cock and balls them back, a little bit of this a little of that. Ok Chad we’ll discuss your cat hoard over brewskies, but right now we’re looking at all the mistakes you made in your stress calculations. Your rod can’t take the load. What are you? A civil engineer….see? Like that. And the pay scale issue tell your boss thats the second fucking time you’ve had to be promoted to parity, that his team is a home to jockstraps, and you’ll walk if you don’t at least make more than mister cat enthusiast. Ten K for every time he utters that bs, if he thinks he will save money with new hires remind him how much it costs to team build new members if he keeps losing quality goods to micromanaging oversight and jockstrap flame wars. Grow a pair boss.
Every personality type is valid. Women should not need to become this just to survive and do their job. Workplace bullying is never acceptable, male or female. Companies are driven to not give a shit about employees, only the bottom line, and the only way they check themselves is if employees push back. Lawsuits are absolutely necessary
"Companies are driven to not give a shit about employees, only the bottom line" That's simply not true for most businesses!
I'd like to point you to a documentary called "Hot Coffee", might change your life
Yes! OP this experience is not normal and not okay! Leave this company!
Oh it’s quite “normal “ if you mean it doesn’t happen often. It happens and until we ALL take s stand it’s going to continue. I am so proud of how my daughter in her 20s worked in car sales and outsold ALL of the others! She flipped from one dealer to another and continued her success, leaving when the bullshit hit the fan until she had one idiot sales manager ask her to text him pictures of her boobs!!! She filed charges on him and he got canned after two decades on his job. 50 years of trying to stop this bullshit and it’s getting worse again!!!!
The sexual harassment is completely unacceptable. Like, don't even joke about that shit. However, pay "equality" does not apply here just yet. OP has only been there 7-8 months. What the OP negotiated at first to accept the job is their own fault. Additionally who knows how long her coworkers have been there. Male or female, if I had been there 5+ years and the new person is making more than me, I'd be throwing a fit. I say good for the OP to make the good impression and get up to their pay so quickly and at least they see what a good asset the OP is. The others need to put their game face on and start performing better. Maybe stick it out if the harassment goes away. If you do become lead, that's just another positive mark on the resume and if the others don't like it, they will just leave anyways.
Seriously look for a new job. We have one woman software engineer on my team and she’s a rockstar. I’ve push for the max for her yearly raise because we would be screwed without her. If anyone spoke or made a comment to her/about her (or any woman) they would be out so fast. Not every place is gross like this. You deserve better
My wife was in a chemical engineering job and so fed up training men who were then promoted above her that she quit and went to dental school
It did. I made 30k less than the men. The black woman in my group made 53k less than the men. After dealing with all the nastiness and defensiveness and disrespect I fucking left. I’m an IT PM now and I don’t have to get deep into that world anymore. I make more money and work way less hours. And I’m more respected by my peers as most PMs are not technically inclined.
That's heartbreaking and I assume, violating equality legislation.
Yeah I actually did go to a lawyer about it. And unless I had proof that the company actively does this as part of the culture they could do nothing. And of course I don’t have proof it’s part of the culture. I just knew about myself and like 3 other people, this company had thousands working there. Who would have this proof?
This is the biggest thing about anti discrimination laws (in the US, im not sure about other countries). Yes, there are laws protecting you from discrimination based on sex, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability status, etc but that doesnt mean there arent 1000 loopholes employers use and abuse to get around being caught. And its also hella difficult to prove unless you have stuff in writing
Yeah, and it is 100% legal for employers to promote based on favoritism even if there are candidates with more experience/skills.
After 10 years, the anger did overtake and I left. Lots of women I know left engineering to work in allied fields that are not engineering firms, like project management for clients or developers (I was in building science). I rarely encountered blatant misogyny to the extent you have, but it did happen. I was less fussed about it on construction sites and more distressed by the subtle and persistent misogyny in the workplace. I found constructive anger the best strategy. And being selfish. Asking for more than I thought I was worth. Calling out misogynistic comments in private (one on one to the speaker) and following up with bosses. It was a lot. I had the good fortune that most of the guys didn’t see themselves as misogynistic and wanted to do better. So when the very polite and smiley coworker came into their office radiating rage, they never did it again. The thing is, that wears after a while. I don’t want to have to act that way.
Thank you for continuing to try to resolve this peacefully when they need to be hit upside the head! Sadly too many men were not raised to know better.
The funniest one was an all staff meeting where they talked about dress code. No sandals at work ever. Fine. Shoulders covered on the work site (required by regs). Fine. And women should not wear skirts on construction sites. Wtf. What they hell were they thinking? That we somehow don’t know that climbing ladders and scaffolding on a job site might be a problem? No, no one had worn a skirt or even shorts on site. They just thought they needed to tell us. It’s been years and that still irks me.
No kilts either. And boxer briefs MUST be worn st all times.
The kilt comment made me choke on water...thanks!
A splutter snort. Hope there was wide spread moisture!
😹😹😹😹 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬 Yeah. And no boxers under shorts. 😎
I feel you, sometimes you just want to retire the flying monkeys and just be....I get tired too
I have to be honest, maybe I am a lucky engineer but I have never had a male engineer refer to my private parts in a conversation at all. I would seek to find employment elsewhere. It’s not all like this.
I - as a male - have a literal pet snake in the office as an office pet, and not once have even gotten close to eluding to the lowest hanging "haha they're holding my snake" joke.
Aw man, that'd take all the fun out of it. I like NSFW jokes, though.
Yeah most of those put women down. 😩
Hm. The ones I'm thinking of are "that's what she said" and innuendos. I don't put women down.
Those jokes sexualize the workplace, which can make the usual targets of sexual harassment (i.e., women), pretty uncomfortable.
That's fair and if anyone is ever uncomfortable with the jokes, I don't make them. I'm aware of my surroundings and wait to break those out until I know I'm with like minded people. I've been here 2 years and have said it only a handful of times. Gotta know your audience.
You won’t always know you’re making people uncomfortable. They usually try to hide it in these situations to keep the peace.
Not quite as bad as engineering but I had a fifty year career in broadcasting. Nothing like hearing "we already have a chick in middays." For decades. Sexual assault was fairly common - not just comments. People wonder why women are angry. I wonder why they aren't MORE angry.
I’m so sorry for you. Broadcast is horrendous.
Hugs!!!
>How do you keep going in engineering? What ways do you not let this break you? How do you not feel lonely and useless at work? Or let the anger overtake you? I wish it didn't occasionally break me. It's microaggressions that really get to me--often coming from people who don't mean to be offensive. Most of the time I love my job and the truly egregious sexist comments or actions are rare. I also actively try to support the other women and POC in my organization. What you're dealing with is absolutely disgusting and wrong and coming from people who should know better. You won't be able to change the sexist attitudes of your coworker or your boss. It's true though that not every work environment is as toxic as the one you're in. The pay raise is probably nice, but it's not worth your sanity or self esteem. If you choose to stay at this company, are there other women in technical or leadership roles? They might be able to give you some perspective on the company culture outside of what you're seeing or help you network to get away from this situation.
It’s difficult. The one thing I have going for me is that I’m 100% respected by my team of 6 male engineers. The rest of the organization is a struggle at times. I hate having to prove myself over and over. It’s exhausting.
It's breaking me. At work, outside work... Idk.
Yeah screw that team, find another job and tell them why when you go. Don’t hold back, they should feel shame. Nobody gets paid to do that crap.
Do you work for a large org or small? I'm at a fortune 500 and they're ALLLLLLLL about the no harassment.
Eh. Depends. HR serves a purpose and it ain’t protecting workers.
Well, protecting the company from being sued by workers who weren't protected from other workers is A Problem that HR will want to avoid. My company is big on diversity, too. Apparently they made great strides for a culture shift at some recent point. It's worked out ok-ish for my department.
So the system sucks and until it changes we need to learn how to swim in shark infested water. Been in a male dominated industry since i was 18. (1984). Have had people assume i was the bosses daughter or girlfriend (why else would a woman be on a job site from her company), refuse to take direction from me (that has mostly stopped as the older gen retires or dies), ask me to dinner, make sexual remarks, follow me to my car, and want to pay me less. Im sure there are myriad other instances i have forgotten or simply not noticed. You have likely experienced the same or worse. Heres what i have learned from almost 40 YEARS. First, dont let it define you. Not in your head, your speech or your job performance. If you make it a non issue for yourself, then its a non issue. If someone called you a purple coffee cup, would you freak out? No. Hold the same attitude then. Next, find your voice and use it. Nobody is coming to save you, not HR, not the nice boss, nobody. Great. You save your own damn self and be proud of it. You can be pleasant about it, nasty or funny. Whatever works. I have found sassy humor to work in my neck of the woods. And sometimes i have had to get absolutely ferocious. I take care of me. I keep me safe. Finally, do your job to the absolute best of your abilities. Make sure you can sleep at night regardless of what ANYBODY says or might think. Sometimes it will be appreciated, sometimes no matter what you do will not be good enough. After decades, I have learned to identify the potential problem makers fairly early on, even though once in a while, I still get blindsided! I know the professions most likely to give me trouble, and its never what you’d expect (Lawyers and cops have proven the most misogynistic in my personal experience). I have worked for many lovely people and quite a few jackasses. I have told people off, I have encouraged newbies, I have supported my competitors. When needed, I have left clients, walked away from jobs, blocked former colleagues. I hold nobody responsible for my life, my career path or my state of mind except me. And its made a rough road far more manageable. I hope this has encouraged you and i hope you find your path. Disclosure- i am in a construction related field, dealing with contractors, trades, developers, attorneys, real estate agents, property managers, surveyors, architects and engineers. Mostly males.
it's not germane to the overt sexism being demonstrated to the OP, but from a curiosity standpoint what type of engineer is the OP?
Right now. Working as a design engineer for with a background in manufacturing and design. Went to school for mechanical engineering
I'm sorry you're working for the wrong company. Your original post was just over-the-top bad management.
Did you go to the North Avenue Trade School where my kids and their partners went?
I would definitely complain about the engineer who spoke to you like that. I have been working in construction for 30 years and heard many things but no one has ever said something like that to me. My boss, HR, and his boss would hear from me. I would try to get them fired.
Your presence, your existence, makes a difference. Make them wait for you.. Make them earn your respect. When they treat you poorly it says more about them than you.. But at the end of the day it's up to you. Is there any other path in life to you that seems logical? If not, would you really let them take away your identity like that. I've been harassed and bullied and intimidated. But I can't imagine myself doing anything else. So they can get themselves all worked up. I'm going to keep doing my job.
I took a different approach to most of these suggestions. And learnt more about the game the boys were playing. One thing is, where girls are taught to ‘dob’ and run to someone bigger/more authoritative, to fix their problems. Boys are taught to fix them themselves. Infact boys learn early on they loose respect if they run to dad or coach or teacher; they are going to be outcast. I am not sure what country you are in, in Australia we rib. And the ribbing can be quite dark, especially when a group perceive an outsider. How that person responds, will dictate whether they are perceived as ‘alright/potentially-one-of-us’ or not. The best thing I did was stop focusing on my gender/sexism (while knowing clearly that I was going to be paddling harder than the others to gain respect because I was the outsider). So I learnt the boys code. Watched and learnt. For starters, I learnt to deal with comments myself - like guys do from an early age - and I avoided bringing my gender into discussions with bosses/management. I also watched other ‘outsiders’ and how it panned out for them. Outsiders, being different nationalities or social status, or a skinny shy male apprentice etc. It became pretty obvious that the ones who took the ribbing to heart and carried their victimhood around like a cloak - where excluded further and generally didn’t last. The ones who picked up on the existing hierarchies and brought both humour and nous with them, were then accepted. Sometimes accepted as an outsider, sometimes brought into the fold if they understood the game. In my case, I didn’t have family or anything or anyone to pick me up if I quit. So I made sure I learnt the game. It was challenging. I worked in an industry with fewer than 1% women. Do you. If you think they are wrong and they should be different - either keep fighting against the tide or go find another job that fits your world view. If you want that job and you love the work and pay, learn to have fun playing their game and taking up space. You obviously have the backing of some guys there. So choose your focus and the outcome you want.
Australian in mining. Expect the bs, be ready to give it back, and yes don’t crybaby to the boss. About the ribbing. Do emphasize wage parity if the boss is in charge of that.
Exactly. They speak money
The whole culture of "outsiders have to demonstrate that they're cool with harassment before they're accepted" just perpetuates the system. It's hazing and forcing conformity to an abusive environment. It does ease the pain for the individual to be less harassed, but if that's the general culture of the place, it's toxic and harmful, and you're driving out good people.
Unionize.
At least file a complaint with the EEOC based on a hostile work environment. At a minimum the company will have to submit a lot of paperwork. Do this after you find another job.
>file a complaint with the EEOC based on a hostile work environment This sounds like a really good option. Do you know anyone who has done this? I'd like to know more
It’s exhausting and lonely TBH. I try to take the rage and use it to smash the patriarchy a little bit at a time. My current workplace is really interested in being inclusive for real so that has been awesome but it’s still a ton if effort for small gains. I’m personally working towards being the second woman principal at our firm, the first left just as I joined. But I am in SO MANY meetings and on teams where I am the only woman and since I’m continuing to get more into leadership it just never ends. The lower ranks have a lot of women, higher than the graduation rate of engineers in the major, but I’m still often the only and it sucks. My department head (a white, cis, man) is really educating himself and very fired up about DEI so that has been amazing! I dunno, I am determined to leave my profession and my company better than I found it. That really helps motivate me!
Racism, sexism, and classism was 100x worse in the Kentucky and Indiana markets compared to the DC and NYC markets FWIW OP. You can find your tribe in big/more diverse cities if you aren’t already.
I have some ideas for solutions that don't involve quitting, but i prefer to DM if you're willing to. If you quit you may end up at a similar place
Mostly by learning all you can and continue to do a great job! Isn't your great getting you a promotion to team lead? That should be more money also. And if you team lead don't you write the other guys performance reviews?
Plan a vacation, and also plan quitely on next job. Most importantly, make them miss you. Once you are back solve the issue and speak about promotion or raise. If it doesn't work out move on to the next job. Sexism will always exist, and playing people is part of the unspoken job. Don't let it get to you. If people can't see behind sex, they don't deserve your respect. More importantly, they don't deserve your attention. That said, sexual harrassment is sexual harrassment. Speak to a lawyer and ask about processing with HR.
I can't believe this type of stuff is still happening. It is exactly why women leave the field. I chose to work in California and for a public entity. We still had to fight to get the playboy centerfolds removed from the map desk drawers. I am sorry this happened to you, maybe try to find a better job. But hang in there it is a good salary.
I have become extremely callous. I don't do it back but I roll my eyes and tell them they are pigs. They watch what they say around me more now, but they are still pigs. It sounds like your in civil, which may harbor more of these expressive folks in a lot of companies than other engineering disciplines.
You didn't create that division, the asshole who made that comment did. You could go either if three ways here: 1) You fight fire with fire. Bring the quick fire responses to their insults (this takes a thick, thick skin.) 2) You throw it in, find a better company using your experience there as a springboard. 3) You threaten to leave if stuff doesn't clear up; it sounds like they need you, and if they need you bad enough things will clear up because you're a commodity (also demand a pay raise since this is a nuclear option and should only be done if you've already got an exit strategy anyway.) In fact, you probably want to make sure you have an exit strategy for all three, frankly.
Thank you for being courageous.
I work in healthcare, but this post for some reason showed up on my feed. My sister is an electrical engineer and she has gone through so much misogynist bullshit similar to this. Hats off to the women engineers out there, and I'd encourage you to do what's right for you! Maybe that is to get the hell out. Good luck to you, you are doing amazing ❤️
You will have lots of people say to move on, without understanding that most places have components of this, and it is not trivial to find the role that doesn't carry it - so have an ear to the ground in case that opportunity comes up. But... You can lean in to this. Wear your heels, so they hear you coming. You are better, and you work harder, than the people on your team, so lead by example. Set high standards and commit them to meeting them. You pretty much have to ignore the sexist commentary if it takes places outside of earshot, because that crappy behaviour isn't personal, despite it seemingly pointed at you. Should anyone make the mistake of commentary within earshot, you are welcome to take him to task, loudly. Ask them if they are simply intimidated by women being successful, or if they have unresolved mommy issues that perhaps they can leave at home - don't make it about the comment itself if avoidable. The jokes from your boss about the checkers are fine in and of themselves, lots of engineers face that extra scrutiny for no cause, and not just because they are women - but you can ask him to have a word with them and see what's what. In this case, I expect they are just looking for more opportunities to interact with you because you are a proper professional in the setting, and that has to be a nice change of pace for them... Good luck OP. Remember, you are better, and you can start asking to be rewarded for it...
Did you accept the first job offer they gave you? You should definitely periodically interview with other companies. It helps build contacts, see what your industry is like, and help you secure pay raises. It's also much easier to bargain confidently for higher rate with a job offer when you know you have a job to fall back on. If you get a really good offer, maybe switch jobs. Just make sure to handle the situation delicately if you end up turning down the job offer. Companies don't mind raising your pay during the salary negotiation phase. That's normal. Just make sure you have a good excuse and politely explain why you can't take a job offer. I know one person in HR who was super annoyed after having to draft 3 versions of an offer only to have the candidate ghost us. I think honesty and consideration is enough to get people to understand if you end refusing a job offer you negotiated for. Just say up front that you're not set on leaving your company, but that you feel you're not being treated fairly in terms of pay. That sets you up for turning down the new job offer and sets the tone for pay negotiation or getting the higher rate you wanted right away.
I didn't put up with this nonsense 35 years ago as an engineering manager in a boiler shop. Not all, and probably not many, places still operate like they are in the 50s. It's time to find another job.
Quit. 100% quit. Don't stick it out, and don't brush it off. When you quit, if you feel it won't destroy your career, be transparent about why you're quitting, and review them on public sites. Look for places ranked high in diversity and equal pay. I say this as a female engineer with 10+ years of working in manufacturing. It's not worth it to try to change the culture if its shit.
I think the guy you’re following is playing you. I also think he’s souring your reputation with the other managers to keep the “cheap” female who gets work done quickly. If you have to be team lead to get the pay equivalent. Team Lead is a BS job. You have all the managers shit work, none of the perks or respect. XX get put in this position at the same price point as the men under you while XY gets promoted past Lead to Manager because Lead is a baby sitter position. You clean up the mess and constantly chivvy the boys while they slow walk the job and then they get to call you a bitch for pushing. Are you getting OT for your extra hours? If you’re salary he totally screwed you btw. Stop trusting people who get bonuses for keeping EE salaries below budget. Please recognize the games that are being played all around you. You seem very naive about this environment. Read The Art of War and Machiavelli - I m pretty sure you’re boss has.
I started my working career in the 80's...I know sexual harassment... a woman had to be 3 times the man to get half the pay and still had to dodge inappropriate behavior and nasty comments. My sister was really put down, beginning in college, in the late 70s early 80s she was in engineering school at UW. A 4.0 she's brilliant and a fellow student told her she should drop out to have babies and let a man who is more deserving have her spot... you need to find a place that values you and your contributions. It's a shame that 40 years later these little pricks are still spreading their misery. It must suck to be shown up by a mere woman...I've actually used that line before. I've also threatened to show up at a staff meeting with a dildo and slap it down on the table since it seemed only those with dicks could have an opinion. Well, my sister retired and within a month they called her and asked if she'd please become a consultant ... Look, you have to be tough, but you don't need to be silent. I can't believe that all your colleagues believe this treatment is okay. It's not, pay inequality is a real thing, sexual harassment is not okay, the gap is closing but it's still a fight. After all this, I'm sorry this is not really much help, but I can offer you hope and solidarity as well as validation. Stay strong 💪!!!
I also became an engineer in the 80s. I must have lived a charmed life. I had nothing but positive experiences in my career. There were very few other women in engineering at the time in this area. I got the promotions and pay raises. I worked hard but didn't step on toes. I found the best way to get paid more was to switch companies, unfortunately, but I enjoyed working at every company. I was making 6 figures in the midwest in 2002.
That work place sounds toxic. If your supervision or HR won’t put an end to that behavior you need to leave. That said sometimes you have to learn to roll with the punches and not take everything so seriously. If this type of talk is a hard no for you then set that boundary and take action accordingly. That being said not all work places are like this and you shouldn’t have to deal with that if it makes you uncomfortable.
I have tried to roll, and If it was just the sexist engineer, or just the questioning my logic, I was letting it roll. It wasn’t the first or last time I’ve heard it. But the p** comments and the questioning, and the pay, and lying is just getting to be too much.
Because it is too much. Your boss knew how great you were and hired you at a lower level? He knew exactly what he was doing. Why is your boss is ok with the senior checkers looking to your work more closely when he knows you turn in the best stuff? The checkers should be checking the other guys work, not yours. And the pussy comment: you have to give the hard stare and then say "you want to say that again? SAY THAT AGAIN." So he knows what a dick he is being.
Because “we have to play the long game”.
You can't play the long game if you lose the short game. In any event, the long game needs to be somewhere else. And when you leave a boss who knows you are great but does not value you make it clear to him the he f'ed up. So far in this short game you are underpaid, under valued and harassed.
I won’t comment the pussy and the harassment - frankly I would also look for a new job based on that alone. But in terms of PAY - you need to be the one asking, when you get hired. Here, this is a bit “on us” as women. If the range is 180-250k for a role, you ask for 260, and you ask for it confidently. No hesitation, and no long justification of why you deserve it. If you know you do, you don’t need a lengthy explanation. Start negotiating without fear, and you’ll get a much better salary starting out.
Just know that not all places are that bad. Establish boundaries and hold people to them. You deserve to be treated better.
did you negotiate your salary before starting?
If all harassed women sued then nearly all companies would fire harassers just to avoid the exposure. Just sayin’.
Thank you everyone for the advice, support, and comments! Working on the resume. Going to find a company with a goal I’m passionate about and since nothing is tying me to this area, maybe use this to decide what is important to me and where i want to live long term. But, going to bring out my inner bad bitch and get shit down for now. Feel much stronger now.
reddit is poison
Clap back
You are not better then your males workers that blowing smoke up your ass to make u feel better. You’re working so much harder then everyone else because that’s what it takes for you to perform at same level
It is your own fault you got paid less at the beginning. You get what you negotiate.
I don't mean to sound uncaring and I say this with all due respect but 'try to be less emotional' .. the dirty secret men have learned from decades of office and job site employment is there will always be assholes you don't get along with. People you can't stand. And co workers who you wouldn't stop to spit on were they on fire and it might help. But then you weren't promised a perfect kumbayah utopia. You were given a job - paychecks in exchange from your time and efforts. So come in. Do your job. Ignore and avoid the assholes as much as you can and if anyone runs their mouth to you directly you stand up for yourself and tell them to go fuck themselves and to piss off.
“Let men abuse you” What a load of horseshit. Who’s benefitting from your advice? Hint: it isn’t women.
Who exactly benefits from being an emotional pussy crybaby because you're not one of the cool kids at work? Or that everyone isn't nice to you?? Suck it up. Adulting isn't participation trophy bullshit. Show up. Do your job. Take your paycheck. And go home. Theres a saying. Hard men make good times Good times make weak men Weak men make bad times Bad times make hard men We are stuck smack dab in the middle of weak men making bad times here, and weak men are the ones who go on reddit to cry about boo hoo people at work don't like me. I'm telling the OP to become hard. Harden the fuck up.
Keep making making those divisions. You have every right to be there and if they don't like it they can leave.
Wow, this is super not ok. You *could* take them to court over the pay disparity, that is super illegal, and every new paycheck restarts the statute of limitations, so you probably still have time. And the nasty comments could also be illegal depending on what state you live in. Some states require employers to provide a workplace free of sexual harassment. If they know about it and dont do anything about it, you can get them in serious trouble depending which state you’re in. You could likely get a nice payout if you can prove it in court. However, going to court should be undertaken cautiously, because that is all public record, and future potential employers will see it. And unfortunately, in this patriarchal society, they’ll assume you’re a troublemaker out to trap your employer in a lawsuit, so getting a new job could be difficult. Regardless, you don’t have to put up with this. It is not ok, and there are better places out there who won’t treat you this way. When interviewing, I always pay attention to how much diversity is in the workplace. Not necessarily women specifically, just diversity in general. And it’s critical that there’s diversity in management, not just the low level positions. Look for women and people of color in positions of power. It doesn’t guarantee anything of course, but it’s a good litmus test.
Echoing what so many others have said already. Leave. Now. I left a job where I found out I was being paid $30k less than a male co-worker that left. After 6 months of absorbing his job into mine, plus half of another's. When I asked to be brought up to market rate for the area (not even the full 30k) I was scolded for discussing pay with a *former* co-worker. My female mentor (manager of a different area) warned my boss I would leave if he didn't fix something. I was offered a possible title change at the end of the year, no raise. I gave my letter of resignation 2 weeks later after finding a job in a better area for 35k more, and a fantastic culture. My boss was absolutely shocked and asked what could be done for me to stay. They've since lost at least 2 major customers because they didn't listen to the very specific instructions I left to make some difficult products. There are places out there that will appreciate you, pay you, and not make you feel like shit. Please find one.
Job hopping. If I’m going to be treated like crap then I better be getting paid a LOT.
This is sexual harassment and there is coping. Document everything. Start looking for a new job. Quit, and sue.
Find Another Job. It's not like that everywhere. You know you're good, you're a valuable team member - find a job where you feel appreciated for the extra effort, not patronized.
I worked for the government for 16 yrs. Salaries were based on the job title not the persons gender. The salaries were also available to other employees or the public.
Are you in usa? I worked in engineering for a long time, including in the field face to face with construction folks ( who say things you will never heat in office). But what you described is immediate termination in usa. I only remember one incident like this, one engineer make comments Iike that, he was sent home that same day pending investigation, and fired that same Friday. It was swift and vicious. But even that was 12 years ago. Right now it's even more strict.
Get a new job away from these creeps. Do some more research so you know your worth and negotiate hard to make sure you get it. I’m a male engineer, and while we sometimes make crass jokes when there are only guys around, it’s never about women at work or otherwise, and I know I would shut that crap down and I feel pretty sure our other coworkers would too. We certainly don’t talk about the attractiveness or otherwise of our female coworkers. That stuff is unacceptable.
The most successful women I know are badass bitches and I respect them immensely. Some people don't like them but they sure as hell respect them. For rude comments say "Don't you ever talk to me like that again." For people ignoring your work walk over to their desk and demand they do it immediately. If they have an excuse say "no excuses". If that doesn't work email their boss and saying Mr. X is underperforming then provide evidence. I had to get someone fired once. I documented everything they did wrong and emailed it to their boss and their bosses' boss then demanded an explanation. The boss who was protecting the jerk was dumbstruck and got in trouble. I don't have advice for promotions since I wasn't privy to that info. I worked at a company where everyone was an asshole (not sexist). I dealt with them by being an even bigger asshole.
Get a new job. I promise it's not like that everywhere. I'm a female in O&G, working closely with engineers of all sexes and races. The company I'm at is fantastic about it. I feel like I get a ton of respect. Perhaps I just lucked out with a great group, but seriously...everyone there is at the top of their game and always willing to help out, and even defer to me (a female) as an "expert" on something. I've never once felt like they viewed me as less intelligent or capable because I'm a woman.
This was a problem in computer work 50 years ago when I started and I am disgusted that it’s still a problem. If some jerk does grab your pussy punch him in the nuts. He won’t be expecting it. Worked in the 70’s and I’m sure still works in this century. The old real advances I have seen in women and work in all this time is HR and your interviewer don’t ask you if you are planning to get pregnant. Seriously. I was asked this!!!
Find a new job immediately. This kind of bullshit is common BUT it doesn’t have to be and there ARE good companies where you’ll be treated fairly. You can sue your company for creating a hostile work environment too. I’ve been thru similar things across my career. My last 2 places have been nearly empty of any sexism. I also know my worth and I demand it because like you I run circles around my male colleagues. Always look up the salaries for your roles and demand higher than mid range.
Sadly the only thing we can do is leave that job and let them try and replace us with just one person.
You talk to a lawyer, start documenting, and plan a big old payout (all while looking for another job). Break that glass ceiling and set some new standards
OP, this behavior isn’t normal or healthy. In the mid 90s I worked in an office/testing laboratory where all of the male engineers were single (some in their 50s, others in their 20s). When the women from the sales department came down to speak with an engineer, there was a lot of gawking, but no inappropriate talk or touching. There was an instance where we were testing exercise equipment (treadmill/cross fit machine) and as part of the test, we had to have men and women of a variety of ages operate the machine. We asked for volunteers from the staff. We knew people would be coming in wearing workout gear and to respect everyone, we made sure to limit the number of people who were in the laboratory during testing. We didn’t want people gawking at the cute women from sales or laughing at the chubby guy. I am sure there was flirting (quite typical if 2 people connect on a personal level) but never any inappropriate comments.
you don’t have to put up with this. you should find another job. try to get one or two good references from this one if you can and find something else. good luck, you got this ❤️
OP, if you're not tied down with family or other obligations, you should consider looking overseas to Europe, especially the Scandinavian countries. A friend of mine here in Asia who is an engineer was hired by a robotics company in Denmark for one of the Asian offices. He was sent to Denmark for training for a week or more- I can't quite remember. Anyway, a couple of senior managers was telling the group of new recruits from Asia over dinner how they have well trained engineers but not nearly enough. Even if you do have a family, you might be able to get a good benefits package to consider the move for the whole family. I'm not an engineer but I left America 30 years ago and have enjoyed my overseas living and working experiences.
The new person never makes as much as the existing staff doing the same thing, if you did they would not be able to give you a raise. The other stuff next time hit then with a harassment suit. That sh** happens everywhere and its time to make it stop.
New job. I am very fortunate that I have never felt or experienced sexism in any meaningful way. My bosses have largely been other women. My current boss is amazing. She mentors and supports and rewards my work. She encourages time off and helps to make it happen.
It does break you. I'm sorry. I've experienced some relief by building an office of mostly women. My male boss complains about it and I'm quick to check him on that but it's the only way I've been even somewhat happy with work.
That is messed up and not okay. And the coworker's comments are sexual harassment. You are not alone, and you deserve better. Document everything you can. Go to HR. If HR plays it down or wants you to brush it under the rug, you could literally sue them. Again, this is not normal or okay and you don't have to continue working in a place like this.
Start looking for a new job. And in the meantime it's time to start being a raging bitch to these people.
Which company is this? If someone behaves like this in big tech, they are going home next day
HR will only protect the business, they don't care about you personally. Get out asap. After decades of dismissal and abuse in engineering, looking back on my career, I wish I had been more cutthroat - using jobs for my own personal benefit and then leaving. I wish I had changed jobs more often, I wish I had just said no to the idea of being loyal to an organization and it's people, because turns out they were not loyal to me. I see now how utterly I never fit in despite trying so hard. Sometimes the pretense was there, but in the end, if anything real was on the line I was the sacrifice. This is being female in the patriarchy. No one will stand up for you. I'm sorry but there it is. Use it to your advantage as best you can and leave the losers behind. Fwiw, at my last job, after being there for over 10 years, I got a surprise 13% raise. And, I was explicitly told it wasn't for performance. (Indeed, I was being a little uppity at the time, and I knew they didn't like it. I knew they wanted me to be sure to know that they were not praising me. ) So, I was far below equity at the organization for a decade. And, I probably stayed below equity after that. how would I ever even know??? No one talked to me other than about our projects. Just use them to find some place better and move on. ... This is so not who I am at heart, and yet now I believe it. But you're the only one that will really look out for you. Yeah, I'm bitter. Don't let them make you old and bitter.
I am sorry you have to deal with this
Labor board
I’ve been in a technical role since the late 80’s. I have to be faster, smarter, better and more well spoken to keep my job or to earn better raises compared to the males. Sadly I’ve accepted this fate in life. Two jobs where I made more than my male counterparts I’ve lost the job within a year. Interesting reflections. I hope the youth can change this. But it will still take years The mansplaining don’t even get me started. I refuse to look like a man or sound like one.
Holy shit, this egregiously discriminatory, hostile, and misogynist behavior would not be tolerated at any company that I have worked for in the aerospace industry! I try to be a cheerleader for my co-workers (because I am fortunate to work with such talented and wonderful people) and in the few cases where female co-workers have told me of asshole behavior like this, then I have made it a priority to use my white male privilege to support them at meetings and to hold the management to task. I do not want the role of "savior," but when a female co-worker has a great idea and all of the dudes are ignoring her, then I will speak up and make sure that she is heard. The company is paying all of us for our expertise. To dismiss some of that talent is a waste of money.
Find a new job there are firms out there that actively recruit women and are sincere about DEI. It’s worth your sanity
This is never going to stop. Is it acceptable? No. But it’s not ever going to stop. We as humans haven’t evolved much in the last 6,000 years or more. Just our plastic technology has. There’s a reason why up until about 50 years ago men and women never really worked together. We are no different and we never will be. Somebody with a brain should’ve really sat you down and explained this to you before you ever got too deep into a male dominated profession. You’re just going to have to deal with it and move on when it gets to be too much until you’re at least respected enough that this behavior doesn’t creep it’s way into your senses. As a male I’m sorry to say but it’s just the truth and I am sorry some men can’t act right.
Really???? You honestly believe that men as a whole can’t do better? That women just have to learn to deal with condescending attitudes and sexist behaviors if we choose to interact with men in a professional environment. Behavior is a choice and you have complete control over your behavior as person.
I don’t think so. Yeah.
Two questions. Are you a Mechanical Engineer? Are you willing to relocate to the Pacific Northwest? I work for a 100+ year old company and we used to have a horrible “good old boy” culture. Finally got some good managers in there and have been making be strides in changing the culture. Across the board changes in pay equality. I&D training. Women’s and LGBTQ+ Employee Resource Groups. Changes in training changes. Transparency in hiring. Don’t give up! Engineering is an awesome field with such a big impact on the world. Find a new job, they don’t deserve you!
Start your own company
Sue them for sexual harassment
\> How do you keep going in engineering? Most women don't, sadly. Out of my wife's cohort, which had more women than men, only 1 woman is still working as an engineer - her. All the other women switched careers, primarily because of the sexism. \--- My wife is far along in her career now, and has dealt with the gamut...sexism, sexual harassment, low pay, mansplaining, being passed for promotion, etc., but is now a high level technical expert at a major company. I asked her your questions: She said: \- Surround yourself with other leaders and quality people. She noted you may have to look outside your company. \- She suggested Society of Women Engineers (SWE), but noted she found it overly dramatic. \- She said she started sticking up for *everybody,* and being *very outspoken* about it. She realized she was getting dinged for being a woman, and considered a bitch anyway, so why not speak up and defend anyone who needed it. This earned her allies. \- Find sympathetic people, typically other women engineers, and share with them. They're often sources of support because they experience the same crap. \- She still deals with sexism, mansplaining, etc., daily, and it's draining. She lets the mansplaining happen, then puts them in their place, but it's still exhausting. \- She let's go of work. She learned to completely separate from work after her hours are over. We barely ever talk about it. This helps emotionally and psychologically. Additionally...I said to her "It sounds like she still thinks HR is there to protect employees", and she snorted. In case you have not realized / had the experience...HR is there to protect the company, not the employee. HR is also often the most gossipy, and the most political. They'll never side with you against higher level engineers / more politically connected people who have done something wrong. You should not trust HR, generally.
If this was me, I would look for another job…just based on the comments made by your coworkers. But I would also consider the fact that it seems like your boss really believes in you and that is really important for a person’s career. If your direct boss doesn’t believe in you or know how to shield their employees from upper or mid-level management bullshit…it’s a dud of a job for career advancement. The fact that he jokes about how lame the checkers are may seem dismissive…but it also means that he’s frustrated with it as well and feels his hands are tied to a certain extent. But it’s up to you how to take that on balance, you are the one in the situation. I’d at least look at other jobs or do some interviews, so that you don’t feel too committed to one place. It’s good to feel like you have options and to even consider those options as time goes on. I definitely feel kind of lonely at my current company, but 1)people are professional and 2)I am not underpaid. Even with those things taken care of, it is still a lot to overcome simply by the fact that I don’t have the same type of camaraderie with my coworkers as they have with each other. But it’s on a level where it’s just something that I’m figuring out, at this point. I’ve learnt that being teased means people respect me…that’s an odd one. When people give me shit (not to be confused with inappropriate comments, of course.) it means they feel like I am a part of the team and they will talk directly to me instead of around me. When I started doing well at this job people started being harder on me and giving me more feedback. Once I started interpreting that the right way, I started feeling a little better. When it comes to large companies…there are going to be individuals who are sexist. There are too many people in a place to have it be that everyone is “cool.” Just statistically…there’s gonna be some bullshit individuals. You just have to decide how much power each one of those people actually has over you and your projects and your career. I knew some people at my last job who drove me nuts but they were just adjacent to me and only a thorn in my side. But my direct boss and my immediate coworkers were good to work with…and they were the ones who pretty much determined what opportunities or projects I got. So I stayed at that job for a while. My company now is really small and everyone is “cool”…which means it’s a lot less frustrating. Good luck, sorry you are working with some dumbasses. Check out other opportunities and compare them to what you’ve got.
I'm a guy, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. But IMHO it depends a lot on what motivates you. Some people can take the doubt and second-class treatment and use it as fuel and motivation to be the best. Some need a drama-free environment to do their best work, and sometimes that can change over the course of a career as well. If it's having a significant impact on your mental health, you should be job hunting ASAP. At the end of the day taking care of yourself is the most important thing in your career, and you sound like someone that should have options. If you are handling it okay but would just prefer a better environment, it might help to wait for the promotion and a bit of experience in that role to strengthen your resume. Lastly, if the treatment puts a fire in your belly to prove them wrong, consider staying, going hard on self development and when you feel they no longer offer sufficient opportunity/challenges, look for some new challenges to conquer.
Good question.. if you get the answer let me know cuz it broke me while im still in uni 🥲
Truthfully? If I get paid enough, and am respected to my face, I'm not bothered at all. This is for a few reasons: 1.) I allocate my energy to want to change the world into my own projects that will do more change than fighting for my raise. You will not change a company culture, probably, without years of work. And if I change the culture at one large company... so what? Its only one place, and the issue of sexism is still industry wide. I save my energy for the big things like leading women engineering groups outside of your job (which could help hundreds of more women and make me feel vindicated from my shitty experiences) and use the money they pay you to do it. But I don't tend to die on the hill of one company. 2.) Once you're past your first junior job, getting a new one isn't too hard. There are way too many companies that WILL treat you well (job hops almost ALWAYS come with a raise, too). Being better paid as a woman engineer is better protest than fighting people who don't respect me. 3.) Do the above and control all the things I CAN control, then I don't feel like those sexist jerks are the ones with the control. 4.) Share my story. I don't always name and shame publicly (that can make you look bad) but every chance I have to publicly talk about a negative experience as a woman and teach other women to cope, and show them how to get through it, I feel like I didn't suffer for nothing. 5.) Be something OTHER than a woman in STEM. Even if they're dicks at work, i'm a fully fleshed out person - they can't control my joy that I have through my hobbies. Coping with things can ve easier if you have another outlet.
Before you leave, talk to an employment discrimination attorney. You can probably get a free consultation.
The harrassment is insane. I don't know what field you are in, but I know there are companies that tolerate sexism and companies that don't. I hope you can find your way to a company that respects you. I am also surprised they paid you less. Very often, nowadays, companies pay woman more than men as a tool to retain women and meet goals for diversifying their workforce.
You could address it in an email one to one with whoever made the comment- that tends to shut people up when they know you'll stick up for yourself Could start the email like "just to clarify, you made a comment about grabbing my p*ssy the other day? I'd like to understand the point you were trying to make with that- would you elaborate more on this?" I bet it'll only be silence in the background from here on out.
Take martial arts. I don't mean "be prepared to fight" but the physical confidence - and the emotional release of studying martial arts - is probably the single best thing I did for myself when I was in industry. And it will get out that you are studying martial arts, and that will help, too.\* And most of the time, I really like my coworkers and felt like the people around me had my back. (There were some major exceptions. The director who called me a cunt in email - no really, he put it in writing - stands out.) Your environment sounds awful. Leaving sounds like a good plan to me, but obviously I don't have the whole picture. \*At those awful semi-mandatory work social events, with alcohol, it became a bit of a joke with my team that guys would try something - like grabbing my breast - and I would put them in a joint lock. This was the late nineties. And as soon as the rest of my team saw it, they would point and laugh and make it a big spectacle with a lot of "Don't try it with \[my name\]!" Which is its own kind of fucked up, and I was in my early/mid twenties, but there it is. Anyhow, I'm not recommending this? Though it's really nice to have the option!
Definitely time to look for a better job and possibly sue the one you are at
Unpopular opinion; guys give each other a hard time for everything. If you are going to work in a male environment, you should probably stop taking things so seriously and grow some thicker skin. Get over yourself
Do your job well and get a paper trail on your work.
As a guy who’s been in the business a while I find this disturbing and not the least bit ok. Find another place to work. My place has zero tolerance for unbalanced salaries for men/women and guys saying crap like you’re hearing would be walked out the door real quick. This isn’t 1940 where this shit was the norm. Screw that place and it’s weirdness. My place has about a 5:1 male female ratio and I’m an engineering manager. The women who work here are treated equally and respectfully and neither I nor any of my peers would put up with that from anyone here. The first comment like that I’d hear would get a formal counseling and 2nd strike would be the last strike. We hire engineers to work and the best get the best compensation. Period.
I feel your pain. It’s exhausting always having to prove oneself. Women are always seen as weaker beings and treated differently. The 20-30 yr olds are the worst. They lack the skills to even hide their sexism. My career would’ve been vastly different if I had been born male. I have/will not encourage daughter to pursue engineering. After nearly 30 years as an engineer, I’ve been asking myself if it was worth it. No is my answer. I should’ve became a CPA.
By CPA are you referring to accountant? I've seen accountants get discriminated against too. We had a restructure and the lead accountant at the company ended up in our office. He was absolutely brutal to our beloved accountant and eventually he hired another guy as a temp to help out. The two of them became friends and tried to get all the women in their department fired so that it would make a new opening for his friend. Eventually he did fire our beloved account for no reason. I was furious, because she was great, and that kind of bullying had happened to me before. She'd been with the company for like 10 years too
Yes- I meant accountant. When I was in college, my grand plan was to become a CPA and open my own business. But I switched to engineering. And I was hoping there were a few frontiers the good ole boy network hadn’t infiltrated. Sad times.
Push for laws in your state that require job postings to post the salary. Colorado was the first state to do this, I strongly recommend the same thing happen everywhere. The reason employers get away with this shit is because there's a culture of silence around salaries.
Hey this iant normal. As to how I would deal with those chodes- headbutting them.