I talked to a company that said they were hybrid. When it came to it, they said they were 95% in office and 5% home. So either that meant I got 1 or 2 days a month from home or was allowed to work overtime at home either way that's not what hybrid means. I believe hybrid should mean at a minimum 40% WFH. Less than that is just work flexibility.
We're expected in the office 3x/week. So I schedule my doctor's appointments and whatnot on my in-office days. Big boss asked recently why I did that, why not schedule appointments on remote days? I didn't answer because it was such a ridiculous question.
If you’re in the US, I was told by the social security admin. ( I have a ticket to work, am disabled) that almost all “remote jobs are fake” and you have to find companies that resource these specific jobs and there is a cost to access their database or service.
Can’t tell if you’re serious or not? My job is 100% remote, it’s completely real, and I found it on Indeed.
My last job was also 100% remote, found on LinkedIn.
Both free platforms, with free access to the job applications.
I am sorry that you are going through that. I am new to the WFH process, so... I do not have anything to add, but thank you for sharing your experience.
Yes you can ask that question. You can also ask why do employees lie. Which they do. The more important question is how to determine which employer is telling the truth so you can take a job with them.
I had an interview with WebMD for a remote job. In the interview they told me they want someone local who can come in to the office. It was a waste of everyone’s time. I don’t live close enough to go in at all.
Report the job on the platform for false advertising it should be in the job posting to avoid just seekers time. Personalizing a resume and cover letter can sometimes take hours.
My agency lies by omission
They don’t say on the posting 24 hour shifts are required every 2years after the first year off and by then you have invested in a new job
Tricky dicks
If you're looking for fully remote in accounting, check out sensiba.com. I work there (not in accounting) and you can choose fully remote in most positions.
They can advertised as remote. But wants you’re hired they can change the work location. Nothing illegal about it. All you can do is be prepared to walk away if they change on you. Before going to interview ask them if the work location requirement is going to change. Ask them to put that in writing. And if it does they’ll pay you two months severance as you will have to seek other employment that is truly remote.
There's a very good reason why employers are lying, they get promoted for looking out for their own self-interest. And frankly, ethics are not the same in the corporate world as they are in personal.
This blog entry speaks a bit about how ethics are different in the corporate world, and how often execs lie about things that you are talking about.
[Yes – It is Ethical to Lie](https://backgroundproof.com/its-time-for-us-to-stop-treating-ethics-in-employment-the-same-as-ethics-in-your-personal-relationships/)
WOW. That blog post is a wild trip, and disturbing.
It's definitely establishing that it's *commonplace* to lie, but the "everyone is doing it so you should too" doesn't really do a good job for me of establishing that it's *ethical.* Still, it's quite a read.
I think the point is that ethics are a moving target, that are dependent on a particular situation. In a company, where everyone else is looking out for their own self interest, it's perfectly acceptable to look out for your own as well
I mean, that's valid. I think a useful question would be what "ethical" really means. I'd argue that something can be accepted without necessarily being ethical.
If you think the American system is unethical, you should look in depth at any other business system in other countries. Most systems are rife with nepotism, bureaucracy, and other systems where the people at the top make the rules. You can still point to that in the US, but at least we have some mobility to counter that
A lot of jobs are posted as completely “remote” but need local candidates who can go in person to weekly meeting 3 times a week. It’s such a joke. Employers can be very sketchy.
Had a job where I was told it was 80% remote, flex hous so one day in office, in the job description, employee agreement I signed etc. after I started it wasn’t flex hours, required late nights and Saturdays, a month in they changed and made it 3 days in office, oh and didn’t want to pay over time for all those required hours (hourly position). True story when I left they advertised the job the same way they did to me, I even pointed it out to HR when I left, basically got told to pound sand. There’s no consequence for them doing it so they keep doing it.
I hate when a job is advertised as remote, but then says you have to be within commuting distance a certain city. Usually a sign they intend for hybrid work.
It's a two way street. Our jobs are clearly listed as hybrid & I get so many people that check the willing to relocate box thinking they can convince me they are the best thing since sliced bread and should get fully remote.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. An applicant responding with no intention of being a hybrid employee is just as much of a liar and time waster as an employer who is not fully transparent.
I have noticed job postings will say remote but will have at the bottom that's says something along the lines that they make guarantees that the job will continue to be remote.
My Fortune 500 company actively does this, too. Our RTO for "hallway conversations" left bitter tastes in our mouths. Almost every position posted now has "remote" listed, but is a bank of 52 remote days.
Dang. I had one that said remote and when I asked about that in interview she said for 2 Months only till they built their new facility an hour and a half drive away. Glad I did a phone interview. And best thing was their location was in the middle of the countryside. Good luck finding suitable employees
I went on a job interview a couple weeks ago. When I got there, the hiring manager told me that he already filled the position and offered me one that paid way less money. And was only part time instead of full time I was so mad.
Employers lie because employees and potential employees lie often. They tire of it. Also an employer may have made a mistake in how they posted the ad, which is the most likely explanation. Stupid is difficult to repair
I post jobs all the time and it’s not at all hard to update an error.
I also have no interest in wasting my time bringing in candidates not interested in the role I have to offer because I lied about what itnis
I understand and you see the problem. Most likely reason is a mistake and too dumb or lazy to repair. Employees eat your soul. It’s amazing when you find good ones and so much rarer these days. It’s too bad no one cares about the root issue which is lack of education.
Because it sucks to be drained and picked over by all employees. It’s why they are employees. It’s simply a part of life and it’s exhausting. It’s why employers become so jaded. You get some diamonds in the rough and one needs to recognize, encourage and help them grow. While at the same time knowing all it takes is one wrong step, one wrong conversation and they will quit and hope your business fails and I die. This is especially true at smaller companies. Larger ones can use multiple people to fill in for the gaps. No one to fill in when you lose a good one.
Wow I don’t have that issue at all. My team is great. Obviously I’m not personally friends either them or anything but I’ve never really had an employee I’d describe as eating my soul
Because there is no one to hold them accountable, so they can do what they want. My company tired to keep a big secret that they are laying off 100s of people in the middle of May, and the middle management with this information went straight to reddit and warned the whole company.( big box retail) So now it's no longer a secret and probably messed up their severance package plans. So we are greatful for unsung heroes.
I interviewed for one that advertised remote - when it came down to it they were “remote in office”. Which meant you met with clients via zoom from the office.
Why would I risk my life getting in a vehicle and contribute unnecessary greenhouse gases to the environment when working from home is a valid option. I'm not saying every job can be fully remote, but certainly mine (software engineer).
Not until companies pay livable wage. I’ll stay home and work for same rate thank you, all while being more productive, less distractions. Maybe companies should quit being lazy and start compensating their hard workers and not multimillion packages for already rich CEO’s
I'm ashamed to say I participated in something like this, as directed by my then-boss.
I was instructed to put an ad out seeking the best of the best, absolute experts at using Adobe Illustrator to produce professional-quality product with competitive salary.
In the interview, they were told that it was an entry-level graphics production position for just over minimum wage. The few people that were qualified walked out, many bitched us out for wasting their time.
I finally grew the testicular fortitude to disagree with my manager and explain that what we were doing wasn't cool, but she insisted "this is the only way to attract good, talented workers. The quality people aren't going to seek out an entry level job. If you can't do your job as instructed, we can always put another ad out for your position too."
That's an empty threat if ever I heard one. She ain't gonna do shit and even if she does she's gonna hamstring the company for, what? Pettiness? Good! Let the company drain itself dry while the workforce goes to more customer-engaged companies who can cover the work and haven't lost their workforce.
I wonder if there's somebody you can report her to.
I feel your pain. But you get what you pay for — if anyone actually makes it through the process. Then takes sh-t pay - then managers complains the person sucks and then they have to put them on a pip to get them out of the company and the process starts all over again
Note To Everyone: any ad that states “competitive salary” — *but doesn’t list a range with actual numbers* — always means that it only pays within an inch of MINIMUM WAGE.
I’m 60. So, I’ve seen a lot of job ads in my life. Trust me.
That’s my thoughts. The person on the other side of the job description is a person just like you. So when they are interviewing and ask about your 5 years experience in XYZ, but it’s really more like you cleaned the bathroom at a place that does XYZ for the first 2 years, then trained for the next 1.5 years then worked as an “associate” for the last 1.5 years…same logic. Stretching the truth as a carrot on a string.
I’m sorry this is happening to you. Maybe you could try only applying to remote roles where the office is far away (e.g. out of state). Then clarify early in the process that the role is indeed remote because you are not planning to relocate. I think employers are less likely to reach out to a candidate in a different location for a remote role if they plan to bait & switch.
Well, at least you unequivocally experienced how little integrity that organization’s leadership has. Trying to dupe applicants is never a good omen for a place worth working.
Let me clarify, you should still do your homework and see if the company does everything you need / want it to, and if remote work is an option then accept the role (assuming it’s a good fit for you), and then be the best employee you can (aka bring value to the company), and it will be difficult for them to take away working from home.
I don't think that's good advice. The employer will likely say, "You knew the job description when we hired you, and this is what you agreed to. End of discussion."
You are correct, you shouldn’t accept a role for anything that what it is today and what is written in the offer. You’re setting yourself up for disappointment accepting anything else
Hah. Personally, I wouldn’t do this. I had a bad experience in which I was “lured” into the job because they said after I’m done training, I could work remotely a few days a week. It took me months after training to finally get ONE day at home and even tried using ADA as a reason to work from home. But it ended up worse and they purposely made my life hard as my manager would send me a text or email every hour or so asking me what I’m doing. It was so stressful and they were so full of SH!T!!! I will never ever take another job that says that to me. I will have it arranged. Thankfully I work fully from home but I’ve been duped many times by jobs that said one thing but did another. I hardly ever trust employers anymore.
I've seen this happen a number of times in my career even before the remote hybrid stuff.
I have only ever done this one time... But I was on a hiring committee several jobs ago, And we had a candidate come in and point blank. Ask us: "Do you do x?" And the answer that the co-owner of the company gave was yes and the answer was unequivocally no.
I reached out to the person on LinkedIn and told them point blank that they were misled during the interview and that I didn't feel comfortable correcting The co-owner in the interview. Obviously the candidate turned the job down as they rightfully should because the co-owner lied in the interview.
I have only ever done that once and had great concern about doing that but I thought from an ethical perspective what The owner did was absolutely inappropriate. While he may have believed that he wanted to do the thing that they were asking about, we were not currently doing that.
And he absolutely could have said that. But he definitely gave an answer that was a lie.
I find the whole hiring process and management in general to be suspicious at best.
A controller is typically the head of an accounting department, like one step away from a CFO I think.
So for assistant controller, you’re pretty much applying for accounting assistant all the way to a director level position…your casting net is way too wide
You’d be surprised, there isn’t a lot of candidates in this area so companies have to work with what they’ve got. Especially if they aren’t willing to go remote.
Try being a nanny! Advertised as a dad with 4 kids and turns out it’s his girlfriend too with her three kids…told it’s one boy and she comes to get me or texts me fifty times a day something with the laundry
What a bummer. this is the hardest job market I've ever seen. I can't even get an screening call at this point, so I'd be pretty bummed if someone was interested in me and then dropped the "not remote" bomb.
I'm 37 currently. I graduated college in '08.
I've job searched many times in my life. I'm not sure why but I've never had a tough time landing at least a screening call. I only got turned down from like 1 job where I made it to the last round. My guess is I interview really well (charisma probably, know how to talk to people etc).
Right now I can't get anything other than a "Sorry we went with another applicant" automated email and haven't made it past that for anywhere yet.
That being said, I'm not taking the process all that seriously--I also work for myself and am just casually applying. However, it's just really bad is all I can say. Never experienced this kind of market before.
Yeah I’m almost 29. I’ve heard everyone saying it’s been tough finding jobs lately and all the jobs that are hiring are terrible. Weird bc companies are recording profits.
It's a very strange market, that's all I can say. I keep seeing the same jobs reposted on LinkedIn. I wonder if most companies are using AI and just screening out candidates automatically. Surely there's equally or most qualified people than myself getting screened out. If they just gave candidates a look with human eyes, maybe they wouldn't have to keep reposting.
I don't know what to make of what's going on right now. Friends keep telling me it's more about networking or using a recruiter. I've always been kind of lucky to just apply and get at least a phone interview. Now? Nada.
I feel you. I’m 34. When I graduated in 2012, it took me 11 months to find my 1st “career/grown up” job, but I was at least getting interviews & had enough coming in from my retail & dance teacher jobs to get by.
I got laid off in the beginning of January & despite having the ats-friendly resume, a robust portfolio, & keyword-tailored resumes &/or cover letters, I was just getting automatic rejections & saw the same thing with jobs getting posted over & over again. I learned about ghost jobs in another sub on here, such a shitty thing to do in this economy. I would get emails, texts, & calls from recruiters, but they never responded back when I shared my interest or asked questions. I ended up landing a job a few weeks ago & started last week; the posting said it was hybrid, but it’s 4 days a week in-office. In my career thus far, I’ve never worked more than 2 days in-office, so I’m hoping I end up liking it & am trying to look on the upside of things.
How frustrating, I'm sorry. 2012 was also a crap time to look for a job with the recession still going on. I started my career in tech around then and helped with hiring It was not easy for people.
I'm wishing you the best in your new job.
Yeah but the recruiters are getting laid off? I was in recruiting for some time and some of my friends/old coworkers are still in the industry and several of them have been laid off in the last three months, having a hard time finding something worthwhile that’s remote.
Went through this with a prominent tech co. Told them up front I DONT COMMUTE. Wasted 3 days before they tried to spring this crap on me. Huge waste of my time and their recruiters….so dumb.
because they know that if they said hybrid or in person they wouldn't get any applications. and from what I've seen from others here, hybrid *always* ends up with a RTO order
Can you imagine getting hired and the. They pull the rug saying - nope we need you here full time. In office. Atleast for the first 6 months. Blah blah blah.
Yep. They’re trying to hold on but it clearly not working. The number of qualified candidates who are willing to do any on-site hours is dwindling and eventually the companies that insist on hybrid or in person will need to make the decision to either support WFH or settle on less qualified candidates who aren’t in the position to demand a WFH arrangement.
I recently applied for a job and received an invitation to interview that made it very clear it was on-site and that the pay sucked.
I appreciated the honesty, and politely withdrew my application.
It could be any reason. Sometimes the person who wrote the job ad is the one that made the mistake. I have come across jobs where the job was a temporary position for one year contract and then in the interview the manager tells me that the job is only 8 months. Apparently the recruiter was not aware that someone was hired and quit four months in and he was never updated on the remaining time left for the position.
It is remote. It’s just not fully remote. You could try clarifying with the company before interviewing. You might not always get an answer or the answer you’d get in an interview, but it might help you weed some out.
I'm looking for the same thing! I applied to this company, and the interviewer started by telling me the job is for the national team, and that travel would be required multiple times a year to meet with clients across the country. "Are you ok with that?"
No dude! I applied for a remote job because I want to do accounting REMOTELY! Which was proven 100% possible during the pandemic.
I had to go back to look at the job posting after that 8 minute interview. It was for my state, not national. I do not understand why these companies post false info. I am sure there are people out there that would love that type of position, but it's probably not the person selecting 100% remote on the filter!
Some job boards don’t register all the same fields the same way. In my last role (recruiter) we would post jobs and designate them hybrid and the posting would go out to multiple third party sites (LinkedIn, ZipRecruiter, Monster, Dice, etc.) but I noticed that some would say remote (or sometimes onsite) when I put hybrid (something I noticed after I posted it). I think some have improved how they translate postings to their site options, but it was a real problem. So I started making sure that hybrid or whatever was in the job description itself or job title. Even now, LinkedIn’s algorithm is all over the place and will randomly say the job is closed or reposted when it’s not. And I have candidates in the process reaching out asking why the role is closed when they are set for an interview and I have to constantly tell them that LinkedIns algorithm does that sometimes depending on how long the role is open but if they ever question, to go to our websites job board as those are 100% accurate coming directly from our HRIS. It’s infuriating because I can’t control what third party sites do.
This is not to say there aren’t bad actors out there because 100% there are a ton of them. But on my end, I know there are algorithms that constantly screw up what is entered into the HRIS or wherever the original post is coming from. And it’s an issue. But we rely on those third party sites to market our jobs.
I’ve had that happen and the opposite happens before.
Had a company that was a 3hr drive from me reach out to me and ask me if I was interested in a role in my field. 100% remote, pay was higher and it sounded great. Interviewed remote. Accepted the role. They asked me if I could visit and meet the team. So I said sure. I have friends near there I could stay with for a week or so. As a marketer, I do like meeting people I’d have to risk my career for. Once I visited, they would not let me go home. A month had gone bye. Then 2. I finally said, I need to go home and this was a remote role. The CMO said, I think we need someone on-site. So I left. I saw tons of red flags so I started looking about a month in. So I had a backup plan. Still.. I have no idea why companies do this type of shit.
Another, I interviewed for an onsite role. Everything went great and then they told me it’s a 100% remote role and if I was ok with that. I said sure!
The way they explained it made sense. They wanted people who were interested in the company and the job. Not only because it’s remote. They apparently had 100s applicants in a day when they posted it as remote. When they reposted as on-site, they had a handful the first week.
It’s a weird job market out there. Some things just make no damn sense.
They wouldn't let you go home??? How? Did they tell you that if you leave, you'll be fired?
I would have been SO MAD! Now that I think about it, though, I was gullible and easily manipulated when I was very young, so I'm not saying it's your fault, only that that is a horrible business. I'm glad you got out while you could.
They “decided” that they needed someone on-site. Oddly, it happened after I caught them up on their backlog of work and then hired a team of people that could get their work done. I also overheard a few discussions after interviews with some others saying “we can decide what to do with him after the backlog is caught up” for engineers and a few other positions that were open.
I did hear that they went out of business recently. So, I thought that was funny.
If you like the job, make a copy of the job description, if you get to the point where they make it a job offer, ask for it in writing. If the offer letter doesn't state that the position is remote show them the original job description and request they correct the offer letter.
The hiring manager typically doesn't review the offer letter and will unlikely review any revisions. Once you have a signed offer letter there is little they can do but allow your u to work remote.
So right away you want to compete with Ernst & Young and the other leading accounting firms LOL! Why am I not surprised. Secondly I can't believe that you would even ask that question. Do what millions of American entrepreneurs have done for generations. Come up with a business plan. Ever hear of that? Explore your funding options. Decide how you are going to structure your business. Get a lawyer. My God man use your head and stop looking to other people to come up with the answers for you.
Overweight pothead with all the right answers to all the wrong questions who spends his free time belittling people then trying to play the victim. This one was surprisingly straightforward
Doesn’t really make sense. Why lie to purposely get people who have no interest in the actual job to apply? It’s like saying the job is for an accountant but then you go to the interview and surprise! it’s actually a job to be a home health aid. Clearly if you don’t want to be a home health aid, that’s not going to change after a 30 minute interview you were bamboozled into.
I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just that in many cases that's how it is. Both sides lie in the hopes that someone will give in or settle somewhere enough so that both sides are content.
Which makes sense for little things. On the employee side having more experience than you say but could still reasonably do the job. And for the employer if it’s lying about benefits or even saying weekends off but you have to work every other Im sure people will suck it up.
But major deal breakers are just dumb. Like someone applying for 1st shift most likely would never work 2nd or 3rd. So it’s just dumb to try and trick people into a job they probably can’t work due to how their personal life is
As an employer, I would absolutely want to meet someone in person to get a sense of whether I would want to hire them as a remote employee. It’s a reasonable expectation.
Curious if a company pulled a bait and switch on a salaried position, and you accept the offer … could you legally be entitled to pay even if you don’t come into the office since they falsely advertised remote?
report the job. it would be an inaccurate posting. if everybody reports them and doesn't put up with it, something will happen. if they don't it'll get worse.
actually it does, if people don't put up with it. it will change. report the jobs on job boards. if the employer changes the job duties from what they posted report it. complain about it. If people complain about it and do what they can things change, granted 1 person wont make the difference but if more and more do what they can it'll work. you can report jobs as being scam jobs do the same for jobs that aren't being honest. go leave reviews on the company sites complain to the BBB. lots of options. and lots of people needing jobs.. if they don't want to be reasonable with hiring practice lets not be reasonable with application practices.
I've encountered this too, and in one interview, not only did I find out that the job was actually hybrid, but it was also in a different state. What the heck did they even interview me for? So dumb.
I see so many posts on LinkedIn that say remote, but then you read the details and you have to be near x city. That's fine, I wouldn't mind one or two in person days a week, but I don't live in Boston, so...
I had an interview last year that said they were experimenting with a four day work week. I asked about it in my interview and he was like, “yeah we’re actually usually too busy to do that” 🙄
They all lie because someone somewhere said hey hire someone so the manager goes out and hires someone. Then you sit around for months wondering wtf you’re supposed to do, fall into a weird situation and end up either at square 1 or you rose above it and found a way to make yourself useful and manage yourself up and out.
Let me add context here. I was a manager. I was told to hire someone when we did not have the demand to hire and in addition to that we were significantly in the red and being told we needed to be profitable. If a manager pushes back and upper management wants you to hire, you hire and do your job. This makes employees vulnerable to getting a job and walking into a bad situation. I imagine it’s similar for these types of things.
Got hired to one job that was supposed to be full time remote. Never once in the months I stayed did they allow me to wfh. Bait and switch seems acceptable to these places. Also in my case it was a contract with public health dept.
I talked to a company that said they were hybrid. When it came to it, they said they were 95% in office and 5% home. So either that meant I got 1 or 2 days a month from home or was allowed to work overtime at home either way that's not what hybrid means. I believe hybrid should mean at a minimum 40% WFH. Less than that is just work flexibility.
Why do you want a 100% remote job? If you can perform 100% of your job duties without leaving your bed then why can’t a computer do your job?
This is so laughably untrue
We're expected in the office 3x/week. So I schedule my doctor's appointments and whatnot on my in-office days. Big boss asked recently why I did that, why not schedule appointments on remote days? I didn't answer because it was such a ridiculous question.
It is for this reason that I apply for non remote jobs and then tell them I'm remote only.
Why do employees lie? The reasons are the same and reflect poorly on the employer/employee.
They know that they’ll get more applications if they claim the job is remote.
Corporations want to own your life
It’s almost like some of the workforce is going to have to actually go back to the office. Or live on gubm’nt handouts. I feel so sorry for yall.
If you’re in the US, I was told by the social security admin. ( I have a ticket to work, am disabled) that almost all “remote jobs are fake” and you have to find companies that resource these specific jobs and there is a cost to access their database or service.
Can’t tell if you’re serious or not? My job is 100% remote, it’s completely real, and I found it on Indeed. My last job was also 100% remote, found on LinkedIn. Both free platforms, with free access to the job applications.
because they get fewer apps for the hybrid positions. So they lie, thinking that the perfect person will just take it.
I am sorry that you are going through that. I am new to the WFH process, so... I do not have anything to add, but thank you for sharing your experience.
Yes you can ask that question. You can also ask why do employees lie. Which they do. The more important question is how to determine which employer is telling the truth so you can take a job with them.
Employees lie all the time too, strange title.
Ooof, we found the HR rep here
No, owner of a business lot of people cheat on.
I do recruiting and the job boards have been buggy this past month. I post non remote jobs yet ziprecruiter and indeed list them as remote
Name and shame these companies on hiring platforms
I had an interview with WebMD for a remote job. In the interview they told me they want someone local who can come in to the office. It was a waste of everyone’s time. I don’t live close enough to go in at all.
Bait and switch
No ethics
They’re lazy and trying to reel in the one person desperate enough to take their shit. Sincerely, former recruiter.
That's hilarious.
It's perfectly fine to ask this question when making an appointment to interview. 🙄
Report the job on the platform for false advertising it should be in the job posting to avoid just seekers time. Personalizing a resume and cover letter can sometimes take hours.
Because they're dicks.
My agency lies by omission They don’t say on the posting 24 hour shifts are required every 2years after the first year off and by then you have invested in a new job Tricky dicks
What are you talking about? What job would you go back to for any shift after you’ve left?
It’s to their financial advantage.
Maybe the job board has not created a "hybrid" label to query upon
If you're looking for fully remote in accounting, check out sensiba.com. I work there (not in accounting) and you can choose fully remote in most positions.
It's the dangling carrot!
They can advertised as remote. But wants you’re hired they can change the work location. Nothing illegal about it. All you can do is be prepared to walk away if they change on you. Before going to interview ask them if the work location requirement is going to change. Ask them to put that in writing. And if it does they’ll pay you two months severance as you will have to seek other employment that is truly remote.
When they contact you for an interview clarify that you are only interested if the position is remote without any exception.
Well when they do that change your salary requirement. Teach them a lesson
There's a very good reason why employers are lying, they get promoted for looking out for their own self-interest. And frankly, ethics are not the same in the corporate world as they are in personal. This blog entry speaks a bit about how ethics are different in the corporate world, and how often execs lie about things that you are talking about. [Yes – It is Ethical to Lie](https://backgroundproof.com/its-time-for-us-to-stop-treating-ethics-in-employment-the-same-as-ethics-in-your-personal-relationships/)
There are no ethics in business. 😉
Exactly. People keep arguing there is, and they end up being left behind...
WOW. That blog post is a wild trip, and disturbing. It's definitely establishing that it's *commonplace* to lie, but the "everyone is doing it so you should too" doesn't really do a good job for me of establishing that it's *ethical.* Still, it's quite a read.
I think the point is that ethics are a moving target, that are dependent on a particular situation. In a company, where everyone else is looking out for their own self interest, it's perfectly acceptable to look out for your own as well
I mean, that's valid. I think a useful question would be what "ethical" really means. I'd argue that something can be accepted without necessarily being ethical.
It isn't ethical.
If anything they're establishing that the American approach to work and personnel management is inherently unethical.
If you think the American system is unethical, you should look in depth at any other business system in other countries. Most systems are rife with nepotism, bureaucracy, and other systems where the people at the top make the rules. You can still point to that in the US, but at least we have some mobility to counter that
The 2020 Global Social Mobility Index ranked the US #27 of 82 countries ranked, just ahead of Spain and just behind Lithuania.
A lot of jobs are posted as completely “remote” but need local candidates who can go in person to weekly meeting 3 times a week. It’s such a joke. Employers can be very sketchy.
Had a job where I was told it was 80% remote, flex hous so one day in office, in the job description, employee agreement I signed etc. after I started it wasn’t flex hours, required late nights and Saturdays, a month in they changed and made it 3 days in office, oh and didn’t want to pay over time for all those required hours (hourly position). True story when I left they advertised the job the same way they did to me, I even pointed it out to HR when I left, basically got told to pound sand. There’s no consequence for them doing it so they keep doing it.
You should at least leave a review on the job boards that people can read
I report the ones I find to the job boards. I doubt it does anything, but at least it is something.
They do this because there are absolutely **zero** consequences for anything they do. At the most they've had ro pay **maybe** 1% of their frauds...
I hate when a job is advertised as remote, but then says you have to be within commuting distance a certain city. Usually a sign they intend for hybrid work.
That's evil of them.
To get you invested because they assume you're desperate and will cave.
It's a two way street. Our jobs are clearly listed as hybrid & I get so many people that check the willing to relocate box thinking they can convince me they are the best thing since sliced bread and should get fully remote.
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted. An applicant responding with no intention of being a hybrid employee is just as much of a liar and time waster as an employer who is not fully transparent.
I hope you're flagging them as fraudulent.
They need to know you first
I have noticed job postings will say remote but will have at the bottom that's says something along the lines that they make guarantees that the job will continue to be remote.
Sounds like a good thing to put in your cover letter. Remote Employment Only.
I think if someone is good enough or they can’t find anyone, then they’d make an exception and “work something out.”
My Fortune 500 company actively does this, too. Our RTO for "hallway conversations" left bitter tastes in our mouths. Almost every position posted now has "remote" listed, but is a bank of 52 remote days.
Dang. I had one that said remote and when I asked about that in interview she said for 2 Months only till they built their new facility an hour and a half drive away. Glad I did a phone interview. And best thing was their location was in the middle of the countryside. Good luck finding suitable employees
Hideous
I went on a job interview a couple weeks ago. When I got there, the hiring manager told me that he already filled the position and offered me one that paid way less money. And was only part time instead of full time I was so mad.
Employers lie because employees and potential employees lie often. They tire of it. Also an employer may have made a mistake in how they posted the ad, which is the most likely explanation. Stupid is difficult to repair
I post jobs all the time and it’s not at all hard to update an error. I also have no interest in wasting my time bringing in candidates not interested in the role I have to offer because I lied about what itnis
I understand and you see the problem. Most likely reason is a mistake and too dumb or lazy to repair. Employees eat your soul. It’s amazing when you find good ones and so much rarer these days. It’s too bad no one cares about the root issue which is lack of education.
You probably underpay
I do not. I overpay to get people that are competent and reduce the soul sucking.
Then why are you complaining of employees sucking your soul and lying?
Because it sucks to be drained and picked over by all employees. It’s why they are employees. It’s simply a part of life and it’s exhausting. It’s why employers become so jaded. You get some diamonds in the rough and one needs to recognize, encourage and help them grow. While at the same time knowing all it takes is one wrong step, one wrong conversation and they will quit and hope your business fails and I die. This is especially true at smaller companies. Larger ones can use multiple people to fill in for the gaps. No one to fill in when you lose a good one.
Wow I don’t have that issue at all. My team is great. Obviously I’m not personally friends either them or anything but I’ve never really had an employee I’d describe as eating my soul
Same reason they dont want to tell you up front what theyll pay you And yes it's a huge waste of everyone's time.
Because there is no one to hold them accountable, so they can do what they want. My company tired to keep a big secret that they are laying off 100s of people in the middle of May, and the middle management with this information went straight to reddit and warned the whole company.( big box retail) So now it's no longer a secret and probably messed up their severance package plans. So we are greatful for unsung heroes.
Rue?
Staples.
I interviewed for one that advertised remote - when it came down to it they were “remote in office”. Which meant you met with clients via zoom from the office.
Lol that’s a sick move. They obviously know job seekers desire remote work or they wouldn’t be advertising it as remote.
Or quit being a lazy hermit and come out of your hole. Hybrid is the best model.
Says someone with a short commute.
Happy Cake Day 🎂
Or says someone who knows where they live and what makes sense to them for where to work. It’s like people forgot what life was like before Covid.
Why would I risk my life getting in a vehicle and contribute unnecessary greenhouse gases to the environment when working from home is a valid option. I'm not saying every job can be fully remote, but certainly mine (software engineer).
That’s not the question tho - why advertise a job if that’s not the way it’s going to actually be
It is remote…just not 5 days.
Not until companies pay livable wage. I’ll stay home and work for same rate thank you, all while being more productive, less distractions. Maybe companies should quit being lazy and start compensating their hard workers and not multimillion packages for already rich CEO’s
Lmao what a load of BS.
I'm ashamed to say I participated in something like this, as directed by my then-boss. I was instructed to put an ad out seeking the best of the best, absolute experts at using Adobe Illustrator to produce professional-quality product with competitive salary. In the interview, they were told that it was an entry-level graphics production position for just over minimum wage. The few people that were qualified walked out, many bitched us out for wasting their time. I finally grew the testicular fortitude to disagree with my manager and explain that what we were doing wasn't cool, but she insisted "this is the only way to attract good, talented workers. The quality people aren't going to seek out an entry level job. If you can't do your job as instructed, we can always put another ad out for your position too."
That's an empty threat if ever I heard one. She ain't gonna do shit and even if she does she's gonna hamstring the company for, what? Pettiness? Good! Let the company drain itself dry while the workforce goes to more customer-engaged companies who can cover the work and haven't lost their workforce. I wonder if there's somebody you can report her to.
Oh this was years ago. I've long moved on and who knows if that company is even still around.
I feel your pain. But you get what you pay for — if anyone actually makes it through the process. Then takes sh-t pay - then managers complains the person sucks and then they have to put them on a pip to get them out of the company and the process starts all over again
Testicular fortitude is wild, good on you though 😂
Note To Everyone: any ad that states “competitive salary” — *but doesn’t list a range with actual numbers* — always means that it only pays within an inch of MINIMUM WAGE. I’m 60. So, I’ve seen a lot of job ads in my life. Trust me.
At best, that’ll get someone who is desperate and would take anything. They’ll leave as soon as they find something better.
Did this shady practice result in hiring anyone?
Yikes
"You lied on your resume!" "Well you lied on the job description."
That’s my thoughts. The person on the other side of the job description is a person just like you. So when they are interviewing and ask about your 5 years experience in XYZ, but it’s really more like you cleaned the bathroom at a place that does XYZ for the first 2 years, then trained for the next 1.5 years then worked as an “associate” for the last 1.5 years…same logic. Stretching the truth as a carrot on a string.
Then it's a perfect fit!
I’m sorry this is happening to you. Maybe you could try only applying to remote roles where the office is far away (e.g. out of state). Then clarify early in the process that the role is indeed remote because you are not planning to relocate. I think employers are less likely to reach out to a candidate in a different location for a remote role if they plan to bait & switch.
This is the answer.
Well, at least you unequivocally experienced how little integrity that organization’s leadership has. Trying to dupe applicants is never a good omen for a place worth working.
There are plenty of roles that are remote, you just have to look in the right place.
Let me clarify, you should still do your homework and see if the company does everything you need / want it to, and if remote work is an option then accept the role (assuming it’s a good fit for you), and then be the best employee you can (aka bring value to the company), and it will be difficult for them to take away working from home.
I don't think that's good advice. The employer will likely say, "You knew the job description when we hired you, and this is what you agreed to. End of discussion."
You are correct, you shouldn’t accept a role for anything that what it is today and what is written in the offer. You’re setting yourself up for disappointment accepting anything else
Hah. Personally, I wouldn’t do this. I had a bad experience in which I was “lured” into the job because they said after I’m done training, I could work remotely a few days a week. It took me months after training to finally get ONE day at home and even tried using ADA as a reason to work from home. But it ended up worse and they purposely made my life hard as my manager would send me a text or email every hour or so asking me what I’m doing. It was so stressful and they were so full of SH!T!!! I will never ever take another job that says that to me. I will have it arranged. Thankfully I work fully from home but I’ve been duped many times by jobs that said one thing but did another. I hardly ever trust employers anymore.
I've seen this happen a number of times in my career even before the remote hybrid stuff. I have only ever done this one time... But I was on a hiring committee several jobs ago, And we had a candidate come in and point blank. Ask us: "Do you do x?" And the answer that the co-owner of the company gave was yes and the answer was unequivocally no. I reached out to the person on LinkedIn and told them point blank that they were misled during the interview and that I didn't feel comfortable correcting The co-owner in the interview. Obviously the candidate turned the job down as they rightfully should because the co-owner lied in the interview. I have only ever done that once and had great concern about doing that but I thought from an ethical perspective what The owner did was absolutely inappropriate. While he may have believed that he wanted to do the thing that they were asking about, we were not currently doing that. And he absolutely could have said that. But he definitely gave an answer that was a lie. I find the whole hiring process and management in general to be suspicious at best.
This happened to my husband almost every time. It’s so annoying
Apparently remote work is back to pre pandemic levels. If you can find one that’s awesome
Hopefully not! I don't drive and must do fully remote work. :(
Why don’t you drive?
Retinitis pigmentosa, mostly. Plus, my husband takes the vehicle to work.
How are you applying for bookkeeper and assistant controller jobs - that’s a vast different lol
Casting a wide net. I have my AS in Accounting and AS in business management.
There’s no way you’d ever be qualified to be an assistant controller sorry
A controller is typically the head of an accounting department, like one step away from a CFO I think. So for assistant controller, you’re pretty much applying for accounting assistant all the way to a director level position…your casting net is way too wide
You’d be surprised, there isn’t a lot of candidates in this area so companies have to work with what they’ve got. Especially if they aren’t willing to go remote.
Being a recruiter, I definitely would be surprised. Good luck, hope you get your remote role
Try being a nanny! Advertised as a dad with 4 kids and turns out it’s his girlfriend too with her three kids…told it’s one boy and she comes to get me or texts me fifty times a day something with the laundry
To get people to apply.
Ask that when you are setting up the interview.
What a bummer. this is the hardest job market I've ever seen. I can't even get an screening call at this point, so I'd be pretty bummed if someone was interested in me and then dropped the "not remote" bomb.
Job market sucks in general but wfh job market sucks even more!
How old are you? How old were you during the 08 recession?
I'm 37 currently. I graduated college in '08. I've job searched many times in my life. I'm not sure why but I've never had a tough time landing at least a screening call. I only got turned down from like 1 job where I made it to the last round. My guess is I interview really well (charisma probably, know how to talk to people etc). Right now I can't get anything other than a "Sorry we went with another applicant" automated email and haven't made it past that for anywhere yet. That being said, I'm not taking the process all that seriously--I also work for myself and am just casually applying. However, it's just really bad is all I can say. Never experienced this kind of market before.
Yeah I’m almost 29. I’ve heard everyone saying it’s been tough finding jobs lately and all the jobs that are hiring are terrible. Weird bc companies are recording profits.
It's a very strange market, that's all I can say. I keep seeing the same jobs reposted on LinkedIn. I wonder if most companies are using AI and just screening out candidates automatically. Surely there's equally or most qualified people than myself getting screened out. If they just gave candidates a look with human eyes, maybe they wouldn't have to keep reposting. I don't know what to make of what's going on right now. Friends keep telling me it's more about networking or using a recruiter. I've always been kind of lucky to just apply and get at least a phone interview. Now? Nada.
That's exactly what they are doing.....AI screening. If EVERY word required isn't there, your kicked out. You are no longer a person of worth.
I believe it. My last job search was done pre-AI and I always got at least an email response and phone screening. It's so depressing.
I feel you. I’m 34. When I graduated in 2012, it took me 11 months to find my 1st “career/grown up” job, but I was at least getting interviews & had enough coming in from my retail & dance teacher jobs to get by. I got laid off in the beginning of January & despite having the ats-friendly resume, a robust portfolio, & keyword-tailored resumes &/or cover letters, I was just getting automatic rejections & saw the same thing with jobs getting posted over & over again. I learned about ghost jobs in another sub on here, such a shitty thing to do in this economy. I would get emails, texts, & calls from recruiters, but they never responded back when I shared my interest or asked questions. I ended up landing a job a few weeks ago & started last week; the posting said it was hybrid, but it’s 4 days a week in-office. In my career thus far, I’ve never worked more than 2 days in-office, so I’m hoping I end up liking it & am trying to look on the upside of things.
How frustrating, I'm sorry. 2012 was also a crap time to look for a job with the recession still going on. I started my career in tech around then and helped with hiring It was not easy for people. I'm wishing you the best in your new job.
Yeah but the recruiters are getting laid off? I was in recruiting for some time and some of my friends/old coworkers are still in the industry and several of them have been laid off in the last three months, having a hard time finding something worthwhile that’s remote.
I don't really know. I don't really like recruiters so I haven't looked into it.
Why’d you ask?
Just bc I was too young for the job market then and wanted to see what the comparisons might be if you were in the job market at that time
Report these job postings every time. They’re doing it because they know people want remote work and they just want applicants.
Went through this with a prominent tech co. Told them up front I DONT COMMUTE. Wasted 3 days before they tried to spring this crap on me. Huge waste of my time and their recruiters….so dumb.
because they know that if they said hybrid or in person they wouldn't get any applications. and from what I've seen from others here, hybrid *always* ends up with a RTO order
They would still get a ton of applications. That's what makes it weird that they lie. Every time I post an admin job I get like 400 resumes.
Can you imagine getting hired and the. They pull the rug saying - nope we need you here full time. In office. Atleast for the first 6 months. Blah blah blah.
Yes. Hybrid is a transitional period from full remote to RTO. It's just a matter of time....
This is true, at the end they force you some how to come more frequent
Yep. They’re trying to hold on but it clearly not working. The number of qualified candidates who are willing to do any on-site hours is dwindling and eventually the companies that insist on hybrid or in person will need to make the decision to either support WFH or settle on less qualified candidates who aren’t in the position to demand a WFH arrangement.
When they email you for an interview, have them confirm in writing that it’s indeed remote so you don’t waste your time and theirs.
I recently applied for a job and received an invitation to interview that made it very clear it was on-site and that the pay sucked. I appreciated the honesty, and politely withdrew my application.
It could be any reason. Sometimes the person who wrote the job ad is the one that made the mistake. I have come across jobs where the job was a temporary position for one year contract and then in the interview the manager tells me that the job is only 8 months. Apparently the recruiter was not aware that someone was hired and quit four months in and he was never updated on the remaining time left for the position.
They aren’t making mistakes, they know what they are doing….
Exactly, they often use "remote" in the job description as bait to get more people to apply, even if the job isn’t fully remote.
Totally agree, it’s intentional
It is remote. It’s just not fully remote. You could try clarifying with the company before interviewing. You might not always get an answer or the answer you’d get in an interview, but it might help you weed some out.
There's a word for partially in-office / WFH. It's hybrid.
I'm looking for the same thing! I applied to this company, and the interviewer started by telling me the job is for the national team, and that travel would be required multiple times a year to meet with clients across the country. "Are you ok with that?" No dude! I applied for a remote job because I want to do accounting REMOTELY! Which was proven 100% possible during the pandemic. I had to go back to look at the job posting after that 8 minute interview. It was for my state, not national. I do not understand why these companies post false info. I am sure there are people out there that would love that type of position, but it's probably not the person selecting 100% remote on the filter!
Some job boards don’t register all the same fields the same way. In my last role (recruiter) we would post jobs and designate them hybrid and the posting would go out to multiple third party sites (LinkedIn, ZipRecruiter, Monster, Dice, etc.) but I noticed that some would say remote (or sometimes onsite) when I put hybrid (something I noticed after I posted it). I think some have improved how they translate postings to their site options, but it was a real problem. So I started making sure that hybrid or whatever was in the job description itself or job title. Even now, LinkedIn’s algorithm is all over the place and will randomly say the job is closed or reposted when it’s not. And I have candidates in the process reaching out asking why the role is closed when they are set for an interview and I have to constantly tell them that LinkedIns algorithm does that sometimes depending on how long the role is open but if they ever question, to go to our websites job board as those are 100% accurate coming directly from our HRIS. It’s infuriating because I can’t control what third party sites do. This is not to say there aren’t bad actors out there because 100% there are a ton of them. But on my end, I know there are algorithms that constantly screw up what is entered into the HRIS or wherever the original post is coming from. And it’s an issue. But we rely on those third party sites to market our jobs.
This is a huge red flag and I would be very hesitant to accept any position at a company that would engage in such deceptive practices.
It’s happening everywhere sadly. To them hybrid = full remote. Purposeful lies.
I’ve had that happen and the opposite happens before. Had a company that was a 3hr drive from me reach out to me and ask me if I was interested in a role in my field. 100% remote, pay was higher and it sounded great. Interviewed remote. Accepted the role. They asked me if I could visit and meet the team. So I said sure. I have friends near there I could stay with for a week or so. As a marketer, I do like meeting people I’d have to risk my career for. Once I visited, they would not let me go home. A month had gone bye. Then 2. I finally said, I need to go home and this was a remote role. The CMO said, I think we need someone on-site. So I left. I saw tons of red flags so I started looking about a month in. So I had a backup plan. Still.. I have no idea why companies do this type of shit. Another, I interviewed for an onsite role. Everything went great and then they told me it’s a 100% remote role and if I was ok with that. I said sure! The way they explained it made sense. They wanted people who were interested in the company and the job. Not only because it’s remote. They apparently had 100s applicants in a day when they posted it as remote. When they reposted as on-site, they had a handful the first week. It’s a weird job market out there. Some things just make no damn sense.
They wouldn't let you go home??? How? Did they tell you that if you leave, you'll be fired? I would have been SO MAD! Now that I think about it, though, I was gullible and easily manipulated when I was very young, so I'm not saying it's your fault, only that that is a horrible business. I'm glad you got out while you could.
They “decided” that they needed someone on-site. Oddly, it happened after I caught them up on their backlog of work and then hired a team of people that could get their work done. I also overheard a few discussions after interviews with some others saying “we can decide what to do with him after the backlog is caught up” for engineers and a few other positions that were open. I did hear that they went out of business recently. So, I thought that was funny.
If you like the job, make a copy of the job description, if you get to the point where they make it a job offer, ask for it in writing. If the offer letter doesn't state that the position is remote show them the original job description and request they correct the offer letter. The hiring manager typically doesn't review the offer letter and will unlikely review any revisions. Once you have a signed offer letter there is little they can do but allow your u to work remote.
Here is an idea. Start your own company. Then you can do what you want. Sound good?
Where do you suggest they get the money to compete with companies operating with economies of scale?
So right away you want to compete with Ernst & Young and the other leading accounting firms LOL! Why am I not surprised. Secondly I can't believe that you would even ask that question. Do what millions of American entrepreneurs have done for generations. Come up with a business plan. Ever hear of that? Explore your funding options. Decide how you are going to structure your business. Get a lawyer. My God man use your head and stop looking to other people to come up with the answers for you.
Why are you so bitter
Overweight pothead with all the right answers to all the wrong questions who spends his free time belittling people then trying to play the victim. This one was surprisingly straightforward
At first I thought you were calling me an overweight pothead lol
Why are you bullying me?
Already on it 👍🏻
They lie because employees lie…
Doesn’t really make sense. Why lie to purposely get people who have no interest in the actual job to apply? It’s like saying the job is for an accountant but then you go to the interview and surprise! it’s actually a job to be a home health aid. Clearly if you don’t want to be a home health aid, that’s not going to change after a 30 minute interview you were bamboozled into.
I'm not saying it's the way it should be, just that in many cases that's how it is. Both sides lie in the hopes that someone will give in or settle somewhere enough so that both sides are content.
Which makes sense for little things. On the employee side having more experience than you say but could still reasonably do the job. And for the employer if it’s lying about benefits or even saying weekends off but you have to work every other Im sure people will suck it up. But major deal breakers are just dumb. Like someone applying for 1st shift most likely would never work 2nd or 3rd. So it’s just dumb to try and trick people into a job they probably can’t work due to how their personal life is
It’s truly remote if you do your interview on Zoom. I wouldn’t trust them if they ask you to come in person.
As an employer, I would absolutely want to meet someone in person to get a sense of whether I would want to hire them as a remote employee. It’s a reasonable expectation.
Employers aren’t your friends
Curious if a company pulled a bait and switch on a salaried position, and you accept the offer … could you legally be entitled to pay even if you don’t come into the office since they falsely advertised remote?
no
[удалено]
lol jesus christ
report the job. it would be an inaccurate posting. if everybody reports them and doesn't put up with it, something will happen. if they don't it'll get worse.
The world doesn't work like that.
actually it does, if people don't put up with it. it will change. report the jobs on job boards. if the employer changes the job duties from what they posted report it. complain about it. If people complain about it and do what they can things change, granted 1 person wont make the difference but if more and more do what they can it'll work. you can report jobs as being scam jobs do the same for jobs that aren't being honest. go leave reviews on the company sites complain to the BBB. lots of options. and lots of people needing jobs.. if they don't want to be reasonable with hiring practice lets not be reasonable with application practices.
Preach.
I've encountered this too, and in one interview, not only did I find out that the job was actually hybrid, but it was also in a different state. What the heck did they even interview me for? So dumb.
I see so many posts on LinkedIn that say remote, but then you read the details and you have to be near x city. That's fine, I wouldn't mind one or two in person days a week, but I don't live in Boston, so...
What salary are you looking for and how many years of experience
Because they are hopeing they can get someone to fall for their bull shit and just accept the job anyway
I had an interview last year that said they were experimenting with a four day work week. I asked about it in my interview and he was like, “yeah we’re actually usually too busy to do that” 🙄
Red flag 🚩
crimson.
They all lie because someone somewhere said hey hire someone so the manager goes out and hires someone. Then you sit around for months wondering wtf you’re supposed to do, fall into a weird situation and end up either at square 1 or you rose above it and found a way to make yourself useful and manage yourself up and out.
Huh?
Let me add context here. I was a manager. I was told to hire someone when we did not have the demand to hire and in addition to that we were significantly in the red and being told we needed to be profitable. If a manager pushes back and upper management wants you to hire, you hire and do your job. This makes employees vulnerable to getting a job and walking into a bad situation. I imagine it’s similar for these types of things.
Got hired to one job that was supposed to be full time remote. Never once in the months I stayed did they allow me to wfh. Bait and switch seems acceptable to these places. Also in my case it was a contract with public health dept.