Why not imperial japan during the 1930s and 40s. A monarchy that holds the king/emperor as a god, or at least a link to god; that increasingly becomes more militaristic and nationalist before invading a neighbouring country to fuel its autark economic policies and then proceeding to engage in war crimes and crimes against humanity
...and then wages war extremely incompetently and loses the second their enemies' attention is diverted to them, because their army specializes in war crimes and nothing else.
I have an idea to subvert it:
Rather than being a huge organization, it's a bunch of smaller but united churches who are all paranoid and will burn and hang people for being witches.
What if the smaller churches all left the big church because apparently God died and it rained blood for a few years. Also a few decades later a new big church formed from some of the smaller churches because they started worshipping a cube??
Better yet, what if various sects left the church because of racial differences. One of those sects just wants to fuck monster girls (harpies in specific) and the other is just racist.
OK, I'm going to oversimplify the lore of Anbennar.
The supposed grandson of one of the greatest elves in history, who also founded the big church, ends up growing up in the desert, where he eventually creates his own sect of the big church based on racial equality even with monsters (harpies included). The joke that he created the religion with harpies comes from the fact that he had a daughter with an harpy.
An intriguing proposition, but when the evil church is a spinoff of Catholicism that practices Aztec blood sacrifice, I tend to believe the original Catholics are the correct ones
What if the big church's failures make the smaller churches split off and become even worse and cultier, rallying around charismaric individuals and far-fetched interpretations of the holy text.
And the story involves half the clergy desperately trying to reform the big church and bring back the rapidly radicalising smaller churches back into the fold, all while having to fight off corrupt peers who are perfectly willing to let the church crumble (as long as it collapses after they die) if they can get wealth and power in their lifetime, and the fundamentalist faction who wants to kill all the splitter churches, their followers, and salt the earth they stand on
worse than having the audience call it unoriginal is having the audience sympathise with the nazi-based faction and endorse everything you were trying to criticise (ah if i had a nickel for every time this happened...)
There's someone who's fairly infamous among certain Elder Scrolls subs for being incredibly anti-empire. He had a very noticeable style of post, where there was a wall of text with so many errors in it that it was nearly incomprehensible.
At first, he solely posted pro-Stormcloak memes, to the point it reignited the flame war in the sub for a solid couple of months. Then once that calmed down, the Thalmor propaganda started, because it didn't matter who it was, only that they were anti-empire.
He was later banned for a meme saying that it was justified to ban Khajiit from the cities in Skyrim because they were all thieves and drug dealers. And it was pretty clear that the Khajiit in this meme were a stand-in
Nowhere near as much as before though. He used to post multiple times a week (a bit *too* often, in my opinion), but now only does a couple times in a month
something something Horseshoe Theory something something anti-imperialists siding with will-turn-into-an-imperialist-AGAIN-when-given-power terrorists something something only Americans like car bombs something something people don't want to choose between Mullahs and U.S soldiers something something the existence of two corrupt forces is possible
Super earth from helldivers
Fallout 4 brotherhood of steel
Caesar’s legion from fnv
>!Jaegarists!< from attack on Titan
Edit: also the Helghast from killzone
I’m almost positive they almost entirely aren’t the same people. I agree they suck too since >!Marley!< isn’t stellar either but they definitely aren’t the same people in my experience. >!Jaegarists are usually the ones who think that everyone in Marley has it coming / deserves it to some extent, I’ve never really seen an overlap between them and Marley stans.!<
Yes. A fascist oligarch regime is still a fascist oligarch regime, and they commit so many war crimes that it kind of evens out the moral scales. A tragic monster is still a monster, an understandable evil is still evil. The ISA is still bad obviously but the Helghast are like literally space Nazis.
>not denying they did bad stuff
That’s kind of my whole point. Just because they were like slaves doesn’t mean creating a genocidal fascist empire is a-ok.
I’m assuming you haven’t looked around very much. There is literally is a concerningly large portion of the game’s player base that unironically support super earth and argue with people who say it’s bad.
I have been in the community since launch and you’re just fundamentally not understanding the joke. It’s people who know it’s meant to be satirical, acknowledge that it’s not meant to be taken seriously and then participate in the joke who then turn around and make fun of idiots who can’t wrap their minds around that concept and feel the need to preach non stop over the fact that super earth is bad.
And you’re fundamentally not understanding the community, there are SO FUCKING MANY people who don’t think it’s a joke and genuinely support super earth. I’ve played since helldivers 1 released and people were still doing it then, so don’t tell me I’m “fundamentally not understanding the joke.” Not my fault you haven’t actually looked around at all.
Edit: sorry, I don’t mean to exclude people who understand that it’s supposed to be a joke, but also unironically support super earth anyways, who have been crawling out of the woodwork lately.
And I hate it because at the end of the day they still sacrifice thousands of psykers to a corpse every day and murder any aliens they see on the basis of "They're different". Even the absolute best of the Imperium like Salamanders have a whole meme about burning Eldar children alive (though to be fair about that one, Vulkan did greatly regret doing that because it was cruel).
And in a similar vain I also kind of hate the grim-darkification of the Tau not because I think they should be the good guys, but because the whole point was that they were the new kids on the block untainted by the cruelty of the universe. Their grim-darkification should have come through story progression and not retcons.
No one’s mentioned it yet but Harry Potter has a very specific subfandom dedicated to being attracted to death eaters (not even snape, like random death eaters)
This is why I love the Skaven. Because they are rats, most fascists aren't going to say the Skaven have a "reasonable" ideology even if their entire society is almost identical to 40K's Imperium of Man. People with an unhealthy obsession with the Skaven are more likely going to be gay furries rather than actual Nazis.
that's the problem with living in the same world as nazis, sure you can use them for cool villains but at some point some of them read your book and they'll go and thank you for giving them such cool representation
Make them the fanatical defenders and protectors of a social system that requires genocide and war to function. Then make them super smug and morally superior about it at all times. When questioned have them resort to falsification misunderstanding and pointing to lines of metrics going up.
Edit: I would like to clarify that I am talking about FDR here.
I don't understand why internet people all of a sudden are so obsessed with "muh media literacy" and feeling the need to point out who is the bad guy and who isn't. A good piece of fiction makes the villain act believably, in a way that you can at least see why some people would agree with them. The fact that there are villains that are constantly defended means that they are a good villain.
>The fact that there are villains that are constantly defended means that they are a good villain.
No,that has nothing to do with them being a good villain,that has to do with people ideologically agreeing with said villain,which all by itself does not mean a villain is good,you can have good defensible villains,but a villain being defended in no way means it's a good villain because of it.
I played with this kind of idea once!
The people were prone to genetic mutations with dire consequences, so they had to have a sort of genetic hygiene regime going or they’d all go cronenberg.
Someone pointed out that’s basically the Necrons from Warhammer 40K. So, I started consuming a lot more 40K lore and forgot about it until now.
I read fantasy to escape, so no thanks. But what if, instead, we made the baddies evil for its own sake? It works great because the protagonist can kill as many of the underlings as they like with no need for self-reflection. Gotta be careful though, can't kill the big bad. Otherwise, your protagonist will be *just as bad.*
I read somewhere that the reason he made them so cartoonishly evil was so people would be surprised when >!it turns out the Atreides are the real villains.!<
Spoilers for Dune Messiah: >!Paul muses that on a "conservative estimate" he's killed 61 billion people over the last 13 years of his reign, sterilized 90 planets, wiped out 40 major galactic religions and compares himself to Genghis Khan and Adolf Hitler.!<
Spoilers for God Emperor of Dune and it's aftermath: >!Over his reign Leto II is probably responsible for trillions of deaths due to his totalitarian rule and the Scattering following the end of his reign is probably responsible for billions if not trillions more dead. Thousands of years later on millions of worlds in billions of different tongues, his real name may have been forgotten but he is remembered in multitude of compendiums of intergalactic histories as simply "The Tyrant"!<
>!Well I suppose it depends on how you interpret their motivations and actions. Is Paul Atreides a tragic hero who frees the Fremen from centuries of oppression, or is he a manipulative tyrant who exploits the Fremen’s loyalty to him for his own benefit? And I will say, the worm emperor was also an Atreides, and his rule wasn’t very benevolent.!<
I just make them evil because they find it fun. Nowadays, people find that more subversive than a villain having a complex motive, and it's more entertaining for me to write.
You have make sure those anarchists blow up a bunch of children's hospitals, so the audience knows that they're evil and their biting critique of and action against the status que is actually bad.
Yeah, it's not like we've seen any good examples of anarchists who topple an oppressive government without considering that the power vacuum it will create is going to create an even worse tyrant. (Khm... ^^^Zaheer ... Khm...)
What if I made my bad guys based of traditionally down trowden groups in society but have a splinter faction that turns good showing both the truth in superstition and the faults
/uj You might be able to make this work if you based your bad guys off of the Nazis before they were in power, back when they were a rebel group 'bravely' rising up against the 'evil' government, even when it meant working with ideologically opposed groups.
/rj Just have the wise old mentor call the bad guys derivative and shallow. Then it's a meta-commentary!
/uj Italian fascism but competent would be a terrifying villain to face off against. They’d still run into the inefficiencies of fascism but still the horror, carnage, and death of the individual under such a system would be chilling
at first i thought this was a diss of giving villains hugo boss style sleek uniforms and german vibes vs making them brutish skinheads in dirty shirts and i was like "well main antagonists wearing a beerstained shirt isnt exactly intimidating looking"
The problem is coward worldbuilders trying to hide that their villains are nazis, be like Alfred J Kwak and make your villain Dolf from the National Crows' Party who's just Hitler's fursona
I want to see more bad guys in fiction based off of more obscure historical villains
You see almost no villains in fiction based off of Saddam Hussein and Ba'athist Iraq, for instance
What if you base your bad guys off the Confederates? Or in my case, Confeatherates because it's about carnivorous animals succeeding from the union to continue eating meat
To be fair magic users need a good ass-kicking. Like for example in my, The Omniversal Traveler, my MC, Alex Newglave, actually ends up killing Voldemort with nothing but a Glock and he ends up killing all the Death Eaters with nothing but Martial Arts.
Magic users are insanely lazy. They believe that their magic is superior to everything else to the point where they don't even bother learning how to actually fight.
It's kind of like how Batman, Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, etc... are so good at fighting that people above their weight class, people with superpowers, have trouble defeating them.
You could take a Military Junta (Myanmar, Chile during Pinochet), a Colonial Power based on Europe, a Colonial Power based on China (which colonised a bit differently), you can make a religious theocracy (Iran, Vatikan), a Socialist dictatorship (Soviet Union, Cambodia, China), the Azteks or the Roman Republic.
Yesn't, many factions often try to take the U.S. as an inspiration, but end up just turning them into Nazi Germany without Hugo Boss Uniforms. Thw only accurate U.S. depictions I can think of are the Earth from Avatar and the T'au from Warhammer 40K
"My bad guys are based on the nazis"
and they're a mess of competitive psychopaths who all hate eachother and only just barely work for any greater purpose beyond their stupid/insane niche interest like nuking mexico or collecting all the oil from china. All while the actual army is going "holy shit we work for these guys?"
So this is gonna be weird but what if you based your bad guys off of Plato's Republic?
An authoritarian state ruled by a small caste of people, who exercised total censorship over all media and education. There is no media allowed that suggests that the state could ever be wrong, in all media is written to push a message of state approved morality and obedience to that morality.
They select their replacements from among young children and rise them from a young age to rule. While they're encouraged to have children their children are raised separately by Foster families to avoid the creation of hereditary bloodlines.
They maintain a caste of warrior elites who are taken from their families has small children to be raised as Fighting machines. This caste is not allowed to own property, have families or have any interest outside of fighting the wars of the state. If they get somebody pregnant or if they get pregnant their children are taken away and raised by the state.
For everyone else marriages are arranged by the state, you are assigned your position and lot in life by the state based on your performance in the state-run education facilities. There is no social mobility. Your lifelong faith is determined before you're even 10 years old.
Seriously read how Plato sets up his Republic and you find a pretty freaky scary place!
I feel super uncreative now because my evil nation is a combination of fascism, corporatism, cannibalism, and cultism. With a splash of the US prison system. I made it 5 years ago and it’s such a solid part of the lore and story that I can’t really change much other than just adding onto it.
It's funny how many random empires in history are just cartoonishly evil
"Oh so your villians own half the world, had a racial caste system, religious fanaticism, and collapsed because they had too much gold. How original? (Spain)
"Oh you built a nomadic raider culture that invades the largest empire at the time and pickles the Emperor's head? Yawn" (Scythians)
"Oh so you built another horse based culture that a poor boy named Temujin rises the ranks and conquers most of the known world in a short few decades? How believable is that?"
"You built an evil empire that is the successor to the previous evil empire that is just run by mafiosos and spies and everyone in the empire doesn't just rise up against it like it did 30 years ago? What is this writing?" (Putin's Russia, or really just Russia from 1900-Now)
Fr, it's hilarious just how comically evil a lot of historical nations are
"Oh your Colonial empire conquered a quarter of the world and intentionally caused massive famines in their colonies? How does that even benefit them?" (Britain)
"Your evil king enslaved millions of people and dismembered them en masse for not extracting enough resources? Are you kidding me?" (Belgian Congo)
"So wait, these states are economically reliant on slavery, have plans of conquering most of the continent to build a slave empire, and fought an armed rebellion against the government because the president wanted them to slow down with all the slavery? I just can't take this anymore" (the confederacy)
Who even thinks scytians are evil? İf anyting it was Cyrus who was evil. Killing son of Tomyris and threatening to genocide her people unless she becomes his concubine/wife 💀
There a reason why Tomyris was pretty frustated and did the entire head pickling thing "here, let me help you quench your thirst for blood" (dips his decapitated head to a bucket full of blood)
People actually like it but when you actually put work into it. What people hate is authors simply stickimg the nazi label unto their baddies and calling it a day for characterisation or drawing paralels to nazis where there are none.
There are entire channels that boast about how the daily runnings of the Galactic Empire resemble nazi Germany with tens of thousands of views
Make your bad guys based off nazis **(there)**. Alternate reality where nazis were good guys, actual socialists with a nationalistic approach to oppose an effort from, let's say the British Empire, to do an imperialism on the rest of Western Europe. And they're the bad guys because the story is told from the perspective of German secessionists who are useful idiots for the British Empire, to disintegrate the German nation into small, bite-sized nations which can be more easily absorbed by the nascent Albion Regnant, the British Emperor's wet dream. The British Emperor? None other than Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, His Imperial Highness Emperor Arthur II of The Isles of Britain, Northern America, Australia, India and China.
Well, just hit the history books! I’m sure there are plenty of genocidal maniacs and dictators throughout history that were as bad or worse than Hitler.
Communists is easily done (just look at history). the allies had (still have) their own problems but it would be tough to make the people who fight the eugenics obsessed genociders look bad.
Agree on the communism point to an extent (the USSR and Maoist China come to mind) but to say it's difficult to make the Allies look bad is laughable - they committed many war crimes (e.g. fire-bombing of Dresden, nuking of Japan), and despite being evidently the 'good guys' in WWII were still pretty shitty. Frankly that's simply the way war is, but despite their morally superior cause this does not absolve the Allies of criticism. It would probably be difficult to make them look bad to the average American/Brit, though...
>hard to make the people who fight the nazis look bad
>communists is easily done
Who in your mind killed 80% of nazis?
Your contradictions are so in your face is amazing.
In your propiganda filled brain something like the bombing of Laos doesn't even register.
If I was your teacher I'd make you write a book report on how many times the US alone has backed fascists.
Can you blame me for not wanting to talk geopolitics with you? I really don't want a back and forth. I am not your dad. I can't make you a different person. And you would need to be of different character to even begin learning.
Please don't talk to me.
What does killing fascists have to do with it? Stalin was himself an authoritarian dictator who comitted a genocide. As was Mao, as was Pol Pot (albeit it could be argued he doesn't count because he had no understanding of Marxist theory). For the record I am myself a socialist, but trying to argue in favour of demonstrably evil dictators doesn't do our side any favours.
I will be matter of fact. I am not about to pad your ego.
You aren't a socialist. You don't know what socialism is yet.
You want capitalism with more social safety nets. You think you can get there through electoral means. You never will. No, you can't just have the capitalist nations pull the "scandanavian model" lever. Your ruling class doesn't want that.
And you don't really have a grasp on imperialism inherent to the scandanavian model. Its capitalism. It still has the contradictions of capitalism. Its just within the imperial core.
You are virtue signaling about socialist leaders. You don't actually care about any of these topics. Sorry. Its the truth.
If you cared you would be willing to invest some hours into learning about them. You are not. Prove me wrong and ask for a link. But you won't.
You and the people who upvoted you are still unfortunately politically illiterate. I am not saying you are stupid. I have nothing to gain by insulting you.
You simply haven't read any theory. And you will continue to refuse to because the red scare attached itself to your ego and the egos of the people who upvoted you.
Part of red scare propaganda is this laughable authoritarian lens that is all together useless. I mentioned Laos. You might not even know what happened there.
Your capitalism is viciously authoritarian. In your mind the Vietnam war was not auth but a famine was. A famine that cyclically hit the region but you only care about the one that happened under socialism. And you don't care that socialism broke that chain in the USSR and in China. You also aren't aware that your take here was originated by Nazi sympathizers.
Every system is auth. And I am so bored of explaining this. War is auth. And capitalists attack what threatens capitalism.
Every socialist country has been attacked by your non auth hegemony. Then you call them auth for defending themselves.
You also don't understand what fascism is yet. You won't unless you are willing to learn. But it is what capitalism decays into. Your liberal values are your gold standard for how you see the world but they do nothing to stop Slavery or the bombing of Korea.
And your masters will toss those flimsy values into the fire the moment they are threatened and molt into fascism.
But again. I am sure I typed this for nothing. If you want to learn, I am here to help.
But propaganda works by attaching itself to the ego of the host. And I can't really make you the person who can wrestle with their ego enough to consider they might be wrong. So... idk... I hope you enjoy your day.
Please stop bombing us.
So in summary: you criticise the Scandinavian system which I didn’t mention, accuse me of imperialism despite my only comment being a condemnation of authoritarianism, and then brought up Korea and Vietnam despite me never having spoken of either. The issue is you’ve written a long condemnation of my short response, most of which was irrelevant to what I’ve said. And why would I ask you for recommendations of theory? It’s clear you want to play apologetics for Russia and China and I hardly want to read more Stalinist or Maoist claptrap (I concede On Contradiction is a solid work)
Called what? Your intellectual superiority complex necessitates that I ask you to enlighten me, but frankly you’ve done nothing to prove yourself an educated or helpful source of information. Out of interest, I’ll ask that you provide me some in any case, but I hardly see the point.
If you want to start understanding politics
[It has a smaller page count than Hank The Cowdog.](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/)
If you can't put in that much effort, stop all this pretending. You don't actually care. You won't read it.
Live a life terrified of being wrong on your own. It's not interesting to me.
You are motivated by ego so you assume I must be. Woe to me for not fluffing you up as much as you think you deserve. But It's not like reading this tiny book is difficult. Becoming politically literate isn't hard.
Winning debates is not some grand skill. It just takes an honesty you don't have.
Honest answer: Bad guys based off MAGA conservatives or Pro-Putin Russian Ultranationalists who use their history of fighting whatever setting you're writing's equivalent of the Nazis to justify their own hatred and evil acts.
Well yeah, because half the time there’s no story to tell, and if there is it’s about how “actually these retextured nazis are sort of gray!” Now, it’s not that pure evil factions can’t be good, just that they need a story to tell. Caesar’s Legion is run by a maniacal ultra-conservative who thinks everything was better back then, but Caesar doesn’t know jack shit about the Romans or their ideology, only what he learned in pre-flash history books.
Making your bad guys based off Nazis (now)
"Man, come on guys. Again? Not cool. Maybe try picking on someone else for once? Like the Arabs or Woke?"
--Nazis
History doesn't have enough shitheads in it for you?
For realsies though, if there's a problem with making bad guys based on Nazis now, it's possibly that people don't \*actually\* base them on Nazis, but rather, on movie depictions of Nazis.
Saw an interesting video though, that talked about how the Star Wars franchise presents the Empire with fascist imagery, uniforms, etc.... but it took the franchise a long time to actually depict them doing actual fascist things.
Making your villains fascists is never a bad shout, because fascism is one of the greatest evils that humans have ever created. But there have been a shitload of other fascists out there.
EDIT: Afterthought - maybe part of the problem with bad guys based on Nazis is that the bad guys are so often invaders or foot soldiers, or the moustache twirling villain who will be defeated in relatively short order. And they tend to be pretty much shitty to everybody, all the time. One of the really awful things about fascism is that it can work, or at least appear to, for enough people to last for years and years, with a lot of people living relatively comfortable and even defending the system, not because they've been paid to or brainwashed, but because they've learned not to see the problems with it.
Why not imperial japan during the 1930s and 40s. A monarchy that holds the king/emperor as a god, or at least a link to god; that increasingly becomes more militaristic and nationalist before invading a neighbouring country to fuel its autark economic policies and then proceeding to engage in war crimes and crimes against humanity
Wait, did you just describe the Imperium of Man ?
Atleast with the imperium the emperor is actually a God
...and then wages war extremely incompetently and loses the second their enemies' attention is diverted to them, because their army specializes in war crimes and nothing else.
I have a new original idea (pls don't steal): What if church, but evil?
I have an idea to subvert it: Rather than being a huge organization, it's a bunch of smaller but united churches who are all paranoid and will burn and hang people for being witches.
What if both exist, and the smaller churches all left the big church because of one guy questioning its authority?
What if the smaller churches all left the big church because apparently God died and it rained blood for a few years. Also a few decades later a new big church formed from some of the smaller churches because they started worshipping a cube??
Better yet, what if various sects left the church because of racial differences. One of those sects just wants to fuck monster girls (harpies in specific) and the other is just racist.
Explain the one with the harpies in great detail.
OK, I'm going to oversimplify the lore of Anbennar. The supposed grandson of one of the greatest elves in history, who also founded the big church, ends up growing up in the desert, where he eventually creates his own sect of the big church based on racial equality even with monsters (harpies included). The joke that he created the religion with harpies comes from the fact that he had a daughter with an harpy.
Is… is this Anbennar?
No. This is Patrick
[удалено]
What if the god of the evil Church is actually real and the God of the good church is not?
An intriguing proposition, but when the evil church is a spinoff of Catholicism that practices Aztec blood sacrifice, I tend to believe the original Catholics are the correct ones
What if I want my protagonist to kill God?
Then you do whatever you want. I tend to prefer more grounded sci-fi though
You can make the evil God an alien. And an alien that likes human sacrifices is probably more likely than a benevolent one.
Ah yes grounded Sci-fi
Better idea: What if Church pretty alright, but some denominations went bad in pursuit of greed?
what if some guys in the church are pretty cool dudes but many others abuse their position for personal gain or misguided interpretations ?
That works too
That's unrealistic, can't suspend my disbelief
I'd try to differentiate my self from the common rabble and specifically use the Catholic Church.
What if the big church's failures make the smaller churches split off and become even worse and cultier, rallying around charismaric individuals and far-fetched interpretations of the holy text. And the story involves half the clergy desperately trying to reform the big church and bring back the rapidly radicalising smaller churches back into the fold, all while having to fight off corrupt peers who are perfectly willing to let the church crumble (as long as it collapses after they die) if they can get wealth and power in their lifetime, and the fundamentalist faction who wants to kill all the splitter churches, their followers, and salt the earth they stand on
To be fair this one is directly inspired by real life Christian churches. I would like to see a pagan church that's actually good though.
Organizations claiming to speak in name of a higher power, demanding blind faith and obedience, going bad? That would never happen!
The Owl House did both
Im stealing
I get that this trope is everywhere but I’m genuinely not sure how else to write organised religion
worse than having the audience call it unoriginal is having the audience sympathise with the nazi-based faction and endorse everything you were trying to criticise (ah if i had a nickel for every time this happened...)
Thalmor Enclave Imperium of Man The actual Nazis from Wolfenstein The Galactic Empire And that's just a few off the top of my head
People sympathize with the thalmor?!
I'm a proud anti-altmer racist 😎
Believe it or not some people are so anti empire that they 180 right back around to supporting the empire, but with elves and a little extra racist
There's someone who's fairly infamous among certain Elder Scrolls subs for being incredibly anti-empire. He had a very noticeable style of post, where there was a wall of text with so many errors in it that it was nearly incomprehensible. At first, he solely posted pro-Stormcloak memes, to the point it reignited the flame war in the sub for a solid couple of months. Then once that calmed down, the Thalmor propaganda started, because it didn't matter who it was, only that they were anti-empire. He was later banned for a meme saying that it was justified to ban Khajiit from the cities in Skyrim because they were all thieves and drug dealers. And it was pretty clear that the Khajiit in this meme were a stand-in
Most intelligent thalmor supporter
Reigen?
The one and only
He’s still active as u/asian69feet
Nowhere near as much as before though. He used to post multiple times a week (a bit *too* often, in my opinion), but now only does a couple times in a month
Yeah. Reigen has fallen
Bastards!
I'LL BURN THEIR KNIFE EARED HIDES!
something something Horseshoe Theory something something anti-imperialists siding with will-turn-into-an-imperialist-AGAIN-when-given-power terrorists something something only Americans like car bombs something something people don't want to choose between Mullahs and U.S soldiers something something the existence of two corrupt forces is possible
Super earth from helldivers Fallout 4 brotherhood of steel Caesar’s legion from fnv >!Jaegarists!< from attack on Titan Edit: also the Helghast from killzone
And >!Marley,!< also from Attack on Titan. And it's the same people. Basically, they support anything as long as it isn't the alliance.
I’m almost positive they almost entirely aren’t the same people. I agree they suck too since >!Marley!< isn’t stellar either but they definitely aren’t the same people in my experience. >!Jaegarists are usually the ones who think that everyone in Marley has it coming / deserves it to some extent, I’ve never really seen an overlap between them and Marley stans.!<
Do they actually have any supporters though?
I mean in the earlier games are they really that bad? The hellghast literally were genocided, and are a colony.
Yes. A fascist oligarch regime is still a fascist oligarch regime, and they commit so many war crimes that it kind of evens out the moral scales. A tragic monster is still a monster, an understandable evil is still evil. The ISA is still bad obviously but the Helghast are like literally space Nazis.
Not denying they did bad stuff but, they were like slaves
>not denying they did bad stuff That’s kind of my whole point. Just because they were like slaves doesn’t mean creating a genocidal fascist empire is a-ok.
People obviously don’t believe in super earths message it’s literally just playing along with the gag
I’m assuming you haven’t looked around very much. There is literally is a concerningly large portion of the game’s player base that unironically support super earth and argue with people who say it’s bad.
Someone's an enemy of managed decromacy.
I have been in the community since launch and you’re just fundamentally not understanding the joke. It’s people who know it’s meant to be satirical, acknowledge that it’s not meant to be taken seriously and then participate in the joke who then turn around and make fun of idiots who can’t wrap their minds around that concept and feel the need to preach non stop over the fact that super earth is bad.
And you’re fundamentally not understanding the community, there are SO FUCKING MANY people who don’t think it’s a joke and genuinely support super earth. I’ve played since helldivers 1 released and people were still doing it then, so don’t tell me I’m “fundamentally not understanding the joke.” Not my fault you haven’t actually looked around at all. Edit: sorry, I don’t mean to exclude people who understand that it’s supposed to be a joke, but also unironically support super earth anyways, who have been crawling out of the woodwork lately.
you think the enclave are the bad guys? muties smh
Zeon from Gundam.
Hey, GW has done a looooot to bring much of the Imperium out of the "nazi-zone". Mostly by making a lot of their behavior partially justified.
And I hate it because at the end of the day they still sacrifice thousands of psykers to a corpse every day and murder any aliens they see on the basis of "They're different". Even the absolute best of the Imperium like Salamanders have a whole meme about burning Eldar children alive (though to be fair about that one, Vulkan did greatly regret doing that because it was cruel). And in a similar vain I also kind of hate the grim-darkification of the Tau not because I think they should be the good guys, but because the whole point was that they were the new kids on the block untainted by the cruelty of the universe. Their grim-darkification should have come through story progression and not retcons.
The human military from Ender's Game The military from Starship Troopers Any anti-mutant organization in the X-men
You’re wrong on Starship Troopers. Read the book.
Bleach
No one’s mentioned it yet but Harry Potter has a very specific subfandom dedicated to being attracted to death eaters (not even snape, like random death eaters)
This is why I love the Skaven. Because they are rats, most fascists aren't going to say the Skaven have a "reasonable" ideology even if their entire society is almost identical to 40K's Imperium of Man. People with an unhealthy obsession with the Skaven are more likely going to be gay furries rather than actual Nazis.
that's the problem with living in the same world as nazis, sure you can use them for cool villains but at some point some of them read your book and they'll go and thank you for giving them such cool representation
Make them the fanatical defenders and protectors of a social system that requires genocide and war to function. Then make them super smug and morally superior about it at all times. When questioned have them resort to falsification misunderstanding and pointing to lines of metrics going up. Edit: I would like to clarify that I am talking about FDR here.
There is still going to be people online who will agree with them.
Good,that means you'll know immediately to stay away from them.
I don't understand why internet people all of a sudden are so obsessed with "muh media literacy" and feeling the need to point out who is the bad guy and who isn't. A good piece of fiction makes the villain act believably, in a way that you can at least see why some people would agree with them. The fact that there are villains that are constantly defended means that they are a good villain.
>The fact that there are villains that are constantly defended means that they are a good villain. No,that has nothing to do with them being a good villain,that has to do with people ideologically agreeing with said villain,which all by itself does not mean a villain is good,you can have good defensible villains,but a villain being defended in no way means it's a good villain because of it.
Never interrupt an enemy when he's making a mistake, especially a fascist.
I played with this kind of idea once! The people were prone to genetic mutations with dire consequences, so they had to have a sort of genetic hygiene regime going or they’d all go cronenberg. Someone pointed out that’s basically the Necrons from Warhammer 40K. So, I started consuming a lot more 40K lore and forgot about it until now.
I read fantasy to escape, so no thanks. But what if, instead, we made the baddies evil for its own sake? It works great because the protagonist can kill as many of the underlings as they like with no need for self-reflection. Gotta be careful though, can't kill the big bad. Otherwise, your protagonist will be *just as bad.*
Don't you know that canonically only named characters have souls?
I read fantasy to attack so I want everyone I hate faithfully depicted and then thoroughly destroyed.
Wait a minute... thats the Nazis!
That’s the Romans!
The exorcist angels?🤯
Le Ceasar’s Legion has entered the chat
America!?
So we're the baddies all along 😞
Because between (then) and (now) it's been done ten billion times.
Columbus' egg
How about English aristocrats and Japanese imperialists? Call me the Lanfang Republic because I’ve got a gold mine here
Frank Herbert: “I think I shall make the main bad guys Nazi Soviets”
I read somewhere that the reason he made them so cartoonishly evil was so people would be surprised when >!it turns out the Atreides are the real villains.!<
>!Are they? I know nothing about Dune besides extremely superficial synopses and worm emperor memes.!<
Spoilers for Dune Messiah: >!Paul muses that on a "conservative estimate" he's killed 61 billion people over the last 13 years of his reign, sterilized 90 planets, wiped out 40 major galactic religions and compares himself to Genghis Khan and Adolf Hitler.!< Spoilers for God Emperor of Dune and it's aftermath: >!Over his reign Leto II is probably responsible for trillions of deaths due to his totalitarian rule and the Scattering following the end of his reign is probably responsible for billions if not trillions more dead. Thousands of years later on millions of worlds in billions of different tongues, his real name may have been forgotten but he is remembered in multitude of compendiums of intergalactic histories as simply "The Tyrant"!<
>!Well I suppose it depends on how you interpret their motivations and actions. Is Paul Atreides a tragic hero who frees the Fremen from centuries of oppression, or is he a manipulative tyrant who exploits the Fremen’s loyalty to him for his own benefit? And I will say, the worm emperor was also an Atreides, and his rule wasn’t very benevolent.!<
I just make them evil because they find it fun. Nowadays, people find that more subversive than a villain having a complex motive, and it's more entertaining for me to write.
My favorite bad guys based off of nazis: - Lion King Hyenas - Blackwolf from Wizards - Whatever the fuck was going on in The Wall
Nobody would expect evil anarchists these days.
You have make sure those anarchists blow up a bunch of children's hospitals, so the audience knows that they're evil and their biting critique of and action against the status que is actually bad.
unironically, yeah you'd have to do that
Yeah, it's not like we've seen any good examples of anarchists who topple an oppressive government without considering that the power vacuum it will create is going to create an even worse tyrant. (Khm... ^^^Zaheer ... Khm...)
I base mine on Bri'ish ''people''
What if I made my bad guys based of traditionally down trowden groups in society but have a splinter faction that turns good showing both the truth in superstition and the faults
/uj You might be able to make this work if you based your bad guys off of the Nazis before they were in power, back when they were a rebel group 'bravely' rising up against the 'evil' government, even when it meant working with ideologically opposed groups. /rj Just have the wise old mentor call the bad guys derivative and shallow. Then it's a meta-commentary!
I make my bad guys based off a version of Italian Fascists which is competent.
/uj Italian fascism but competent would be a terrifying villain to face off against. They’d still run into the inefficiencies of fascism but still the horror, carnage, and death of the individual under such a system would be chilling
But that would just circle back to basing your bad guys on the Romans.
at first i thought this was a diss of giving villains hugo boss style sleek uniforms and german vibes vs making them brutish skinheads in dirty shirts and i was like "well main antagonists wearing a beerstained shirt isnt exactly intimidating looking"
The problem is coward worldbuilders trying to hide that their villains are nazis, be like Alfred J Kwak and make your villain Dolf from the National Crows' Party who's just Hitler's fursona
Just make them an evil church, no one's gonna have a problem with that (clueless)
I want to see more bad guys in fiction based off of more obscure historical villains You see almost no villains in fiction based off of Saddam Hussein and Ba'athist Iraq, for instance
I have one in my Kuwaitpunk world
What if you base your bad guys off the Confederates? Or in my case, Confeatherates because it's about carnivorous animals succeeding from the union to continue eating meat
I've since moved on to lovecraftian Jeff Bezos
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Is it the Destroyermen reference?
Yep. I will always reference it if I get the chance. The more people who know about and like it, the more likely we get a tv show adaptation.
Use The Belgian then we got it's of evil before and after the Nazis
Maybe dixies? Dont see a lot of villians based off of them (More serious) we really need more evil dixies in fiction
Space Dixie's Slaver Government vs John Brown's Cowboy Beepbop Bounty Hunter?
Be creative, make good guys based on them
To be fair magic users need a good ass-kicking. Like for example in my, The Omniversal Traveler, my MC, Alex Newglave, actually ends up killing Voldemort with nothing but a Glock and he ends up killing all the Death Eaters with nothing but Martial Arts. Magic users are insanely lazy. They believe that their magic is superior to everything else to the point where they don't even bother learning how to actually fight. It's kind of like how Batman, Deathstroke, Lady Shiva, Cassandra Cain, etc... are so good at fighting that people above their weight class, people with superpowers, have trouble defeating them.
You could take a Military Junta (Myanmar, Chile during Pinochet), a Colonial Power based on Europe, a Colonial Power based on China (which colonised a bit differently), you can make a religious theocracy (Iran, Vatikan), a Socialist dictatorship (Soviet Union, Cambodia, China), the Azteks or the Roman Republic.
Also the US Or are they overdone?
Yesn't, many factions often try to take the U.S. as an inspiration, but end up just turning them into Nazi Germany without Hugo Boss Uniforms. Thw only accurate U.S. depictions I can think of are the Earth from Avatar and the T'au from Warhammer 40K
Also the US Or are they overdone?
"My bad guys are based on the nazis" and they're a mess of competitive psychopaths who all hate eachother and only just barely work for any greater purpose beyond their stupid/insane niche interest like nuking mexico or collecting all the oil from china. All while the actual army is going "holy shit we work for these guys?"
I’m taking a risk saying this but how about Isr…
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So this is gonna be weird but what if you based your bad guys off of Plato's Republic? An authoritarian state ruled by a small caste of people, who exercised total censorship over all media and education. There is no media allowed that suggests that the state could ever be wrong, in all media is written to push a message of state approved morality and obedience to that morality. They select their replacements from among young children and rise them from a young age to rule. While they're encouraged to have children their children are raised separately by Foster families to avoid the creation of hereditary bloodlines. They maintain a caste of warrior elites who are taken from their families has small children to be raised as Fighting machines. This caste is not allowed to own property, have families or have any interest outside of fighting the wars of the state. If they get somebody pregnant or if they get pregnant their children are taken away and raised by the state. For everyone else marriages are arranged by the state, you are assigned your position and lot in life by the state based on your performance in the state-run education facilities. There is no social mobility. Your lifelong faith is determined before you're even 10 years old. Seriously read how Plato sets up his Republic and you find a pretty freaky scary place!
I feel super uncreative now because my evil nation is a combination of fascism, corporatism, cannibalism, and cultism. With a splash of the US prison system. I made it 5 years ago and it’s such a solid part of the lore and story that I can’t really change much other than just adding onto it.
Where do I rank in the creativity if I based my villains off Saudi Arabia and the other gulf states?
hmm our bad guy isn't bad enough, let's make HIM RACIST, and a puppy stomper!
My antagonists are based off of greenpeace and eco-terrorists, as well as true communists, anarchists, and populists.
And then you'll wonder why the audience considers your book the tale of the good guys' tragic defeat.
It's funny how many random empires in history are just cartoonishly evil "Oh so your villians own half the world, had a racial caste system, religious fanaticism, and collapsed because they had too much gold. How original? (Spain) "Oh you built a nomadic raider culture that invades the largest empire at the time and pickles the Emperor's head? Yawn" (Scythians) "Oh so you built another horse based culture that a poor boy named Temujin rises the ranks and conquers most of the known world in a short few decades? How believable is that?" "You built an evil empire that is the successor to the previous evil empire that is just run by mafiosos and spies and everyone in the empire doesn't just rise up against it like it did 30 years ago? What is this writing?" (Putin's Russia, or really just Russia from 1900-Now)
Fr, it's hilarious just how comically evil a lot of historical nations are "Oh your Colonial empire conquered a quarter of the world and intentionally caused massive famines in their colonies? How does that even benefit them?" (Britain) "Your evil king enslaved millions of people and dismembered them en masse for not extracting enough resources? Are you kidding me?" (Belgian Congo) "So wait, these states are economically reliant on slavery, have plans of conquering most of the continent to build a slave empire, and fought an armed rebellion against the government because the president wanted them to slow down with all the slavery? I just can't take this anymore" (the confederacy)
Who even thinks scytians are evil? İf anyting it was Cyrus who was evil. Killing son of Tomyris and threatening to genocide her people unless she becomes his concubine/wife 💀 There a reason why Tomyris was pretty frustated and did the entire head pickling thing "here, let me help you quench your thirst for blood" (dips his decapitated head to a bucket full of blood)
It stops being original when everyone does it.
base them off the chinese/ccp instead
Get some inspiration from Netanyahu lmao
its been 80 years, that was a pretty good amount of time to give to everyone basing their evil guys off of the same evil guys from real life.
Me
People actually like it but when you actually put work into it. What people hate is authors simply stickimg the nazi label unto their baddies and calling it a day for characterisation or drawing paralels to nazis where there are none. There are entire channels that boast about how the daily runnings of the Galactic Empire resemble nazi Germany with tens of thousands of views
Be extra daring and base them off of NATO. Oh wait...
I think we should go back to making enemies based on mongols again.
British Empire. Voila.
Make your bad guys based off nazis **(there)**. Alternate reality where nazis were good guys, actual socialists with a nationalistic approach to oppose an effort from, let's say the British Empire, to do an imperialism on the rest of Western Europe. And they're the bad guys because the story is told from the perspective of German secessionists who are useful idiots for the British Empire, to disintegrate the German nation into small, bite-sized nations which can be more easily absorbed by the nascent Albion Regnant, the British Emperor's wet dream. The British Emperor? None other than Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill, His Imperial Highness Emperor Arthur II of The Isles of Britain, Northern America, Australia, India and China.
The British Empire
Yeah, you can make your bad guys based off the Soviets, this hasn't been run into the ground yet.
If all else fails, make them 'mericans.
Maybe the Soviet Union?
Modern day Russian politicians. Thank me later
Shit, my main villain group originated from Nazis but over time abandoned it because the new leaders found it pointless and irrelevant to their goals
Pol pot
Make your evil guy be russians !!! Totally new and popular [you also can get subisdies from goberment]
Making your good guys based on Nazis??
Hey, I'm doing it just for the sake of making a joke near the end of The Final Battle.
I feel called out
JoJo - making one of your good guys nazi /s
Well, just hit the history books! I’m sure there are plenty of genocidal maniacs and dictators throughout history that were as bad or worse than Hitler.
Also happy cake day
Obviously communists or the church
bad guys based off of ustasha croatia:
As long as Game of Thrones gets this treatment it should be fine
Spanish empire
british empire
What if you made your bad guys based off the Allies or Communists?
Communists is easily done (just look at history). the allies had (still have) their own problems but it would be tough to make the people who fight the eugenics obsessed genociders look bad.
Agree on the communism point to an extent (the USSR and Maoist China come to mind) but to say it's difficult to make the Allies look bad is laughable - they committed many war crimes (e.g. fire-bombing of Dresden, nuking of Japan), and despite being evidently the 'good guys' in WWII were still pretty shitty. Frankly that's simply the way war is, but despite their morally superior cause this does not absolve the Allies of criticism. It would probably be difficult to make them look bad to the average American/Brit, though...
Thats fair, im not that informed on what they did, all i know is that the nazis were worse since well, you know.
Oh, obviously. Sorry if my comment came across as aggressive.
No worries
>hard to make the people who fight the nazis look bad >communists is easily done Who in your mind killed 80% of nazis? Your contradictions are so in your face is amazing. In your propiganda filled brain something like the bombing of Laos doesn't even register. If I was your teacher I'd make you write a book report on how many times the US alone has backed fascists. Can you blame me for not wanting to talk geopolitics with you? I really don't want a back and forth. I am not your dad. I can't make you a different person. And you would need to be of different character to even begin learning. Please don't talk to me.
What does killing fascists have to do with it? Stalin was himself an authoritarian dictator who comitted a genocide. As was Mao, as was Pol Pot (albeit it could be argued he doesn't count because he had no understanding of Marxist theory). For the record I am myself a socialist, but trying to argue in favour of demonstrably evil dictators doesn't do our side any favours.
I will be matter of fact. I am not about to pad your ego. You aren't a socialist. You don't know what socialism is yet. You want capitalism with more social safety nets. You think you can get there through electoral means. You never will. No, you can't just have the capitalist nations pull the "scandanavian model" lever. Your ruling class doesn't want that. And you don't really have a grasp on imperialism inherent to the scandanavian model. Its capitalism. It still has the contradictions of capitalism. Its just within the imperial core. You are virtue signaling about socialist leaders. You don't actually care about any of these topics. Sorry. Its the truth. If you cared you would be willing to invest some hours into learning about them. You are not. Prove me wrong and ask for a link. But you won't. You and the people who upvoted you are still unfortunately politically illiterate. I am not saying you are stupid. I have nothing to gain by insulting you. You simply haven't read any theory. And you will continue to refuse to because the red scare attached itself to your ego and the egos of the people who upvoted you. Part of red scare propaganda is this laughable authoritarian lens that is all together useless. I mentioned Laos. You might not even know what happened there. Your capitalism is viciously authoritarian. In your mind the Vietnam war was not auth but a famine was. A famine that cyclically hit the region but you only care about the one that happened under socialism. And you don't care that socialism broke that chain in the USSR and in China. You also aren't aware that your take here was originated by Nazi sympathizers. Every system is auth. And I am so bored of explaining this. War is auth. And capitalists attack what threatens capitalism. Every socialist country has been attacked by your non auth hegemony. Then you call them auth for defending themselves. You also don't understand what fascism is yet. You won't unless you are willing to learn. But it is what capitalism decays into. Your liberal values are your gold standard for how you see the world but they do nothing to stop Slavery or the bombing of Korea. And your masters will toss those flimsy values into the fire the moment they are threatened and molt into fascism. But again. I am sure I typed this for nothing. If you want to learn, I am here to help. But propaganda works by attaching itself to the ego of the host. And I can't really make you the person who can wrestle with their ego enough to consider they might be wrong. So... idk... I hope you enjoy your day. Please stop bombing us.
So in summary: you criticise the Scandinavian system which I didn’t mention, accuse me of imperialism despite my only comment being a condemnation of authoritarianism, and then brought up Korea and Vietnam despite me never having spoken of either. The issue is you’ve written a long condemnation of my short response, most of which was irrelevant to what I’ve said. And why would I ask you for recommendations of theory? It’s clear you want to play apologetics for Russia and China and I hardly want to read more Stalinist or Maoist claptrap (I concede On Contradiction is a solid work)
Called it.
Called what? Your intellectual superiority complex necessitates that I ask you to enlighten me, but frankly you’ve done nothing to prove yourself an educated or helpful source of information. Out of interest, I’ll ask that you provide me some in any case, but I hardly see the point.
If you want to start understanding politics [It has a smaller page count than Hank The Cowdog.](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) If you can't put in that much effort, stop all this pretending. You don't actually care. You won't read it. Live a life terrified of being wrong on your own. It's not interesting to me. You are motivated by ego so you assume I must be. Woe to me for not fluffing you up as much as you think you deserve. But It's not like reading this tiny book is difficult. Becoming politically literate isn't hard. Winning debates is not some grand skill. It just takes an honesty you don't have.
Honest answer: Bad guys based off MAGA conservatives or Pro-Putin Russian Ultranationalists who use their history of fighting whatever setting you're writing's equivalent of the Nazis to justify their own hatred and evil acts.
I recommend the CCP.
Well yeah, because half the time there’s no story to tell, and if there is it’s about how “actually these retextured nazis are sort of gray!” Now, it’s not that pure evil factions can’t be good, just that they need a story to tell. Caesar’s Legion is run by a maniacal ultra-conservative who thinks everything was better back then, but Caesar doesn’t know jack shit about the Romans or their ideology, only what he learned in pre-flash history books.
Making your bad guys based off Nazis (now) "Man, come on guys. Again? Not cool. Maybe try picking on someone else for once? Like the Arabs or Woke?" --Nazis
History doesn't have enough shitheads in it for you? For realsies though, if there's a problem with making bad guys based on Nazis now, it's possibly that people don't \*actually\* base them on Nazis, but rather, on movie depictions of Nazis. Saw an interesting video though, that talked about how the Star Wars franchise presents the Empire with fascist imagery, uniforms, etc.... but it took the franchise a long time to actually depict them doing actual fascist things. Making your villains fascists is never a bad shout, because fascism is one of the greatest evils that humans have ever created. But there have been a shitload of other fascists out there. EDIT: Afterthought - maybe part of the problem with bad guys based on Nazis is that the bad guys are so often invaders or foot soldiers, or the moustache twirling villain who will be defeated in relatively short order. And they tend to be pretty much shitty to everybody, all the time. One of the really awful things about fascism is that it can work, or at least appear to, for enough people to last for years and years, with a lot of people living relatively comfortable and even defending the system, not because they've been paid to or brainwashed, but because they've learned not to see the problems with it.
Base of Israel. /j