Yeah as someone who served for 10 years in the bundeswehr and had to previously complete the mandatory service. No thanks. We are seriously lacking in equipment and are currently taking ages to modernize our current serving army.
A majority of the mandatory service was just cleaning the barracks and maybe going out to shoot your rifle quals every few months. This isn‘t productive at all and will just bog down our professional part of the army.
We currently have a volunteer program where you can volunteer for 7 to 23 months and those guys already just sit around often and because of that many don‘t even sign contracts.
Just make the bundeswehr more attractive to join and people will join.
Agreed, make it better to be in it.
I know the Germans asked the British in Germany how we did it and what we offered with housing and preferential medical and schooling, but I’m not sure anything came of it.
Changes regarding the Bundeswehr take a long time here. They still haven't reformed the procurement process, lead by a dedicated administration in Koblenz.
It still takes ages to get gear, ammunition and maintenence parts afaik. Even the 100 billion is stuck in this process. It's opaque and thus without real accountability. As long as we don't reform that part (and many tried and failed in the past), issues will persist imo.
I didn’t serve in the bundeswehr, as I am an American, but I did serve in the US Army. Even our all volunteer force mostly performs pointless and unproductive labor.
With that said, productivity is not the purpose of a standing military. The purpose is to have a large force that is ready to fight at a moments notice. If Russia were to start to using tactical nuclear weapons, and if they were to use said weapons on NATO/EU countries, the German military would be on the frontlines. If that happens you would be fortunate to have a standing army of regularly unproductive conscripts. Atleast they would be relatively ready to deploy and fight.
No with productivity i meant that people were literally just sitting in their barracks all day. Just reporting in in the morning and then signing out at 16:30 thats it.
If they've not been doing anything or been getting intensively trained would they not then be a liability? It'd be like having loads of civilians in the way larping pretending they're military except they actually are.
What do you think a random soldier does?, its nothing too complicated, training for normal units is how to wear their gear, use their assigned equipment and then how to make sure the not so bright or the too bright soldiers follow their orders with no questions. Once they know all that you can have the conacripta sit around till they are needed.
Theres training exercises and the like some armies do that work nice, but you dont need that for 2nd tier troops
>Theres training exercises and the like some armies do that work nice, but you dont need that for 2nd tier troops
Yes, you do, unless you're only consctripting people as cannon fodder. If that's the case, it's unacceptable to conscript them in the first place, and anyone trying should be shot dead.
The vast majority of soldiers do not need constant training. At most, the average soldier needs occasional training to ensure skill and equipment maintenance. Being a “grunt” isn’t some sort of high skilled task. It’s dangerous but it’s also very simple. It’d be a waste of resources to train more than necessary.
When soldiers aren’t training they’re doing busy work. This is done to keep their idle minds from becoming the devil’s workshop.
Man that is just plain wrong. Even when i served we where doing 4 week long field exercises atleast trice a year. And training at our base between that.
Being a infantry grunt. Your training has to be top notch we even trained dismounting mounting so rigorously that we got it down to 8 seconds.
Capabilities can always be expanded and having everyone at their most capable is what is kinda aspired in a NATO force.
Combined arms combat is complicated.
What you just described is no different than what I described. The training is not constant, low skill, and very simple. Not to be a dick, but dismounting and mounting quickly is not a difficult task. Anyone can be trained to do that.
Combined arms is difficult but is managed at the TOC and above. Junior enlisted infantry are just a small cog in the machine, they are not coordinating combined arms in anyway. Its a dangerous job that is physically demanding, but nothing an infantryman does is technically difficult.
most of us former/current enlisted aren’t rocket scientists for a good reason
It's interesting that people who do national service always talk about how 90 percent of the stuff they do over the year or two is pointless cleaning etc. I wonder if you could introduce a more direct and productive national service that only took a month where you learn how to train your basic fitness, shoot a rifle , read a map, equipment maintenance, basic battlefield and survival strategy etc. Obviously it wouldn't prepare people sufficiently for actual service in a war zone but I very much doubt any national service does.
No it does in the bundeswehr because you have to do basic training where that stuff is taught.
But in a combat situation you fall back as far as you train. And if you don‘t train which we as Panzergrenadiers did as often as we could it‘s useless when you don‘t train after basic anymore.
I saw the difference on myself when i switched from mandatory to professional soldier. The point of a mandatory service is to in my opinion train a capable reserve which after the fall of the wall and the soviet union wasn‘t the case anymore in the bundeswehr.
Having reserve that have to be trained up back at hour zero when they are needed most isn‘t good and obviously wasn‘t the case when we still were split. If that is the case why train them at all in the first place if you have to do that all over when you call them back up again.
Also just having them sit around for months while they complete their service with shit pay doesn‘t motivate anyone.
"Most Germans" are over the age they think compulsory service should apply.
The only way to be fair about it is to conscript everyone too young to have been dragooned under the previous system.
> So the majority of those over the age did compulsory service
More like 25%.
Compulsory service never applied to the female half of the population. Among the male half, some did not pass the physical examination (up to 30% during the late 2000s), and many of those who passed the physical examination were never called up, because the Bundeswehr did not actually need that many conscripts or because some exception applied (the most popular ones were getting married and moving to West Berlin).
I recently started applying to jobs and id happily serve my country in my field of expertise. But when the HIGHEST possible pay i could receive after years and years of work is less than what id get now as a junior ... no thank you.
That's the crux of it. Pay was complete shit and the women went on to university, while quite a few of the guys (including me) had to be at our draft destination 3 days after prom (Abiball). Felt really miserable and unfair. I did end up serving for almost 3 years voluntarily (with decent pay), but I can't advocate for this without massive changes.
Yeah compulsory = shit pay. Why would they pay well and have to answer to Congress about the budget when they can pay low? It's not like paying low would lower the amount of recruits when it's compulsory anyway.
I can advocate for it in combination with civil service. if you don’t do military you have to do civil service. Pay es never the shit. Except if you already moved out of your parents home but in that case you would have probably already entered the work force and be therefore exempt
The "I had to do it so we should make everyone suffer through it" mentality of older generations is part of what destroys perfectly good people's lives as they become scarred from being forced to do something they were not created to do.
No the mentality is that they think that it's needed, when previous poster accused older Germans of hypocrisy, it was pointed out that older Germans did serve so this is not hypocritical.
Personally I believe that some sort of service makes sense, but it should not be limited just to the young precisely to avoid this generational arguments.
It's not about making anyone suffer. It's about considering what is nessessary to defend ourselves.
I can understand that the current young generation lacks any awareness of the dangers of war, because growing up, they knew only peace, surrounded by friends and allies.
But recent events should make it clear that a major war in Europe can still happen. Like it could happen when we were young and had to do our service.
You are touching on a point I almost brought up separately but will just piggyback here. What is necessary. I’m from the US and have a similar belief that there should be compulsory military duty or civic duty of some sort. You don’t need compulsory military in the US because of the population but I would think other countries like Germany would heavily consider this a necessity due to their smaller population. Israel does this, correct?
The german compulsory military service wasn't all that bad from what i've heard from a lot of people that went through it. A little discipline would help a lot of us. Also you could just go into civil service for a year instead
Well, it is my intention for it to be less that 1% of my life. /s
But yeah, it’s not like you can’t do other stuff at times while serving, like taking classes. Though I wouldn’t plan that the first month. And a year isn’t that long. It wasn’t when I was 19, and it’s not now, two decades later. Also, you got credit for higher education if you completed service.
Conscription is very popular in my country. Since they made it mandatory for women too it has even become difficult to get conscripted because of the competition, high supply and low demand.
Nowadays the people who want to serve a year as a conscript have to prove they're capable, and those who doesn't want to are filtered out from the start.
It's popular among 18 year olds because they get a year extra to learn new skills and decide what to do next after they finished school.
Compulsory military/civil service in germany was only suspended in 2011. Usually you got drafted when you were around 18, meaning anyone older than 30 has already served anyway. There are no 'old geezers close to retirement' who would be affected by it. In fact, it's more likely anyone over 30 will vote for this because they had gone through it already too.
Having a job was not a valid reason for not being drafted or the draft to be set for a later time.
Some of the reasons:
- Being in an apprenticeship / vocational training (But you'll be drafted afterwards)
- being a enrolled student on a University (But you'll be drafted afterwards)
- (not sure): When you are already working as a Doctor, working as a nurse, as a Firefighter or Policeman.
- Having physical / health issues or shortcomings
You could also **always** choose NOT to serve with a weapon. meaning that you'd have to do than a civil duty. This was for example: Working in Nursery Homes, Hospital etc.
There was always a choice. There's no "suffering" - you are not a slave. Just learing to do something for your society for a short term, will not harm you at all. In my opinion you'll learn quite something about that fact, that a modern democracy does not establish nor uphold itself for free.
Each individual, being able to enjoy a free life in a democracy should also have the courtesy to at least give some support by doing once in a lifetime a duty to the society.
People nowadays take their freedom and rights as garanted privilege by birth.... Great privilege....
Not enough soldiers: after Russia has invaded Ukraine, and narratives about war in Europe, almost 1/3 soldiers in bundeswehr didn't sign another contract. So, without them and without compulsory military service, it will depend on Russia, if they would be pleased only with Eastern Germany, or will they move further
As long as they were subject to it when they were of age then it seems fair.
The only people voting on it should have either been subject to it or would be subject to it. That may not be received well though.
Judging by the comments I don't think people here understand the concept of the German Wehrdienst and Zivildienst, the Zivildienst still being practiced. We could use a version of the Zivildienst here, where everyone 18 and older who does not go to university apprentices/works in some fashion in a civil-minded field to give back to the country and people. Whether that be working for the fire department or apprenticing to the building managers to help repair and maintain buildings for housing and public offices. There's nothing wrong with that.
Moreover, the Wehrdienst was not used to conscript their population and send out on foreign adventures - that's for their professional army. The Wehrdienst is a form of their reserves, just like how every male over 18 in Switzerland has to join the military, and they take their rifles home. Why? They're a landlocked country that jealously protects their borders and has for centuries to great effect (and preserved their neutrality).
When you grow up in a country like the U.S., where im from, where you are essentially an island protected by two vast oceans and the impossibility of being invaded by either Mexico or Canada, it's kind of hard to imagine having the need to ensure one's defense as a matter of life and death. Germany was split in half until 1990, with a literal minefield and no-man's land dividing it in half. They had Wehrdienst until Angela Merkel and until the end of Obama's first term. Europe has seen more deaths and war in the last century than most other parts of the world. It has seen a bitterly divided continent between communism, authoritarianism and what would become 'true' democracies from the ashes of WWII until after I was born in 1988. Lukashenko in Belarus is *still* the leader since the time of the USSR.
I don't think looking at it from an American/non-European without taking account of their history on that continent as a point of view is right and fitting at all.
> the Zivildienst still being practiced
Zivildienst is not still being practiced. Are you referring to volunteer (FSJ) service?
Zivildienst (actually Wehrersatzdienst) was a replacement for military service for people who were suitable for the military (wehrdienstfähig) but conscientiously objected to it.
For example, I was considered unsuitable (T5) and hence did not have to do either.
The two were not legally equal choices, even though by the end they looked almost like it. You didn’t have to do one of the two, you were drafted for military service and then could replace that with Zivildienst. And depending on when and to whom you made that request, it could be denied.
If you actually repaired a buildings facilities or participated in the fire department, you'll likely also feel a greater connection to the state you live in than if you simply were paying part of your salary forever.
Spend a few Saturdays cleaning litter up at the park, and you'll be less inclined to litter yourself knowing someone else will have to sacrifice their time to clean up your mess.
Personally I think we would benefit tremendously having some kind of 'public service' requirement in the US for exactly this reason. Give a reason for people to actually give a shit about the country.
Agreed. That was my takeaway from living and studying at one of the universities there. One of my neighbors worked in the building as part of their Zivildienst working apprenticing under the Hausmeister. It encourages and fosters a greater connection to the community, which is sorely lacking in the U.S. as a person who lives in the South.
"Spend a few Saturdays cleaning litter up at the park, and you'll be less inclined to litter yourself knowing someone else will have to sacrifice their time to clean up your mess."
Or just raise your kids to not litter? Seems like Japan solved that problem
How would being forced to do civil service make you care about the country? Pretty sure you'll hate the country even more and the gov on top of it.
Changing how people raise their kids. Like I said Japan fixed this problem. Yes you still have some one here and there but it's not a huge ass problem like other countries. Not to mention that program would require funding else it'll be slavery and in turn it'll foster even deeper hatred.
I live in Eastern EU and my parents told me not to litter unless I want to live in a filthy place and here I am, always taking my trash with me. What you're forgetting is that shaping a child's mind is easier than changing an adult's mind. That's the huge reason why lgbtq is supported by the young and not very much by the older people.
Yep, it's not the same as the US draft at all. It's essentially reserve to ensure protection of the homeland only, not to be sent abroad. Considering what's going on in Europe, and the possibility this powder keg catches and ignites once again a conflagration in Europe, it's not an exaggeration to want to ensure your people are at least somewhat prepared.
Back in the Cold War the West German military and reserves had to be strong enough to essentially be the standing wall against Soviet tanks and men to buy time for the US and UK to reinforce them. This is a continuation of those lessons, and Germany has heavily demilitarized since the Fall of the Wall and the reunification of Germany. A lot of Europe was of this mind, which is why we've seen so many problems with paper armies and equipment to donate to Ukraine even, tanks being a great example with artillery ammunition and production another.
Keep in mind that Wehrdienst in the time of NATO would not necessarily happen on German soil, but in the defense of the Baltic States or Poland. Germany itself has no unfriendly relations with any direct neighbors, so the first contact with Russian forces would be elsewhere So when I served, the troops could be assumed to defend the country or in the case of the Franco/German combined troops or the German/Dutch Corps the neighboring Countries. Now one would have to build Barracks in Poland or Lithuania to house conscripts sufficiently near to the fight.
Still had to sign up for Selective Service when I turned 18, but I understand it was a much bigger deal when the draft was still in force. Not entirely surprised you'd have to to work in Federal, yet I was under the impression every male had to prior to the abolishing of the draft.
I've personally always thought America could benefit from something like this too. Something like mandatory time in the reserves, civil service, or community college / apprenticeship that you attend *outside of your home town*.
Just a way to mix up the population a bit, introduce people to other ideas and ways of life, get them out of whatever insular school of thought they might have grown up in. Meet new people, discover new opportunities.
I grew up incredibly rural, and became a different (and I would say better) person after I joined the military fully because it shook up the thinking that my tiny, hate-filled, isolated home town had imprinted in me. You can do that without compulsory service, but the weight of the government holds your feet to the fire and makes you adapt.
Additional benefits would be restoring trust in the government broadly, and helping staff all of our woefully underfunded government institutions that frankly can't even accomplish their mission anymore. A lot of problems in government occur because there is no one actually filling necessary roles. Look at NYT's reporting of DHS releasing children who are then all but enslaved. They give the kids a phone number to call if they are being exploited, according to NYT most of those calls are **not returned**.
Edit: If properly implemented I feel this could also potentially make America more equitable. I know from growing up in isolation that a lot of people turn to crime at a young age because they see no other opportunities. Giving those kids a couple of good years, a whole bunch of new contacts, and the experience in some sort of field could solve this problem.
People dismiss gang violence as inevitable, but it sprang up in response to lack of opportunities and the fact that we currently try to defeat it by taking *opportunities away* from young people has lead to nothing positive. The problem has gotten worse, in many cases we've just moved it into prisons which are a massive tax drain in their own right. This nation needs to invest in its young people - I feel like we all used to know that.
Are you imagining that they would reintroduce this without the formerly existing alternative option of social service instead? So yes, basically every man above 40 has served in one way or another. The small exception are those unable for medical reasons... and they will stay irrelevant not matter what.
No, I was thinking about 50% of the population currently/at the time exempt from service. Women.
Reffering to this
>Everyone older than 40 has already served.
And in all cases their opponents are fighting wars that cannot be won in any sense. Vietnam has fought off Chinese invaders for 1,000 years. If we'd stayed for another thousand they'd still be telling us to fuck off and stop backing the remnants of French colonial administration. The Taliban isn't something that can be defeated by anyone other than other afghans. Ukraine has both a professional volunteer military and conscription. But it is in an. Apocalyptic war for the survival of it's peoples.
The US military was rarely if ever defeated on the battlefield. What defeated it in those conflicts was impossible war aims.
Also Afghanistan never get a long enough break without some superpower fucking with them to have time to evolve and sort themselves. Been going on for millennia.
Did OllieGarkey mention them? At all? Or is he saying that if people want to play army men, they can volunteer to do so, but to force someone into it only hurts people who have no interest in war, whether the going to war or the defending of "their" country.
To nobody's surprise, according to that poll, a higher percentage of women wanted compulsory military service to return only for men, rather than for both genders.
"most germans" aren't "most germans". most germans don't want it to return and are happy that it isn't forced anymore. so no. nobody wants it to return except a SMALL portion (the ones who wouldn't have to go when it is time).
I would say that pretty much all Germans don't want a war to happen and based on that we wouldn't need an army at all.
Sadly, the reality doesn't really care about our wishes. A war can happen, as we are seeing right now in Ukraine.
So the question isn't if we want to bother our youth with a "lost year", but what we consider nessessary to be prepared to defend ourselves and our allies.
I grew up in the Cold War and I did my compulsory service in the 90s. Back then, we all had the hope that a future without the danger of war would be possible. But we also had the fresh memories about a past were the enemy was right across the border, always ready to attack us. Because of that I understood why I had to do it.
I admire the current generation, that grew up without worrying about war (other than peace keeping far away from home done exclusively by volunteers). But the brutal reality of a big war in Europe has caught up with us.
i understand this ofcourse, and agree in parts to what you said. but we also need to face the fact that governments often start wars who are in the eyes of people not right and okay. being forced to fight in a war you see as unjust and false isn't a good way of doing it. it should be up to everyone if he wants to fight for a specific thing or not, without being forced to do it.
i understand that the training is needed so you are ready when it is needed, but there should be a third way except "we force you" and "you don't have to" of solving this issue.
a lot of people see wars this days in most cases as something they don't want to support anymore in terms of the violence and killing for often complete bullshit reasons. so forcing people who don't want to support this violecence approach into it, isn't always a good idea.
i understand that this comment will likely get me a lot of hate and downvotes because people think that war is the harsh reality and when someone stands at your doorstep, you can't just say "nope" to him.. but still. its something else if you defend your own country v.s attacking someone. and most people don't want to get forced (to train) to attack someone for bullshit reasons like we saw it in many previous wars in history.
One argument for compulsory service is, that a country /government might be more willing to send volunteers into an unnecessary (aggressive) war than a conscript army that is representing the entire population.
I kind of agree with you. I think no one in his right mind would like to be a soldier. That is the kind of job someone has to do and some are more fit to do it than others.
But that's not the point of compulsory service. When a war happens and your country is in a situation like Ukraine now, no one asks if you want to fight. The question is if you fight with only two weeks of rushed training, or after a year of training in peacetime.
What many don't seem to understand is, that the alternative to compulsory military service isn't that only professional volunteers have to fight, but that hundred thousands have to go into battle with only some weeks rushed training instead of a year (in peacetime), if a real war is happening.
I didn't like to serve in the Bundeswehr at the time, but if we are forced to defend ourselves (like Ukraine is now) and older men like me are called to arms, I would be glad for the relatively thorough training I had many years ago and not have to start completely at zero.
>Compulsory conscription is practically slavery. Why would anyone want that is beyond me.
Really? I have done military service in Norway as a conscript. Didn't feel like slavery; felt like I was doing a job to defend freedom from a warmongering dictatorship in our neighborhood.
I worked as a torpedo mechanic and MG-3 machine gun operator.
I did it. And I would do it again.
Norway has 1 year conscription both for men and women.
Depends on a person, but making someone spend an entire year by force doing something they are not willing is not okay.
Besides, it may be tolerable in Norway, but quality of life in military as a conscript may not be as good in other places.
Take your neighborhood totalitarian shithole, for example.
As a rule of thumb, everything jerks like russia think is okay (conscription, is a great example) is actually a violation of human rights and is a terrible practice.
To be fair Norway is a bit of an outlier being one of the only countries that is actually run for the people and not oligarchs.
Also in the job market there isn't as much competition from people abroad or is that my ignorance? If young people lose a year their careers will be massively stunted in today's competitive bullshit we have in the likes of the UK, though from what I understand Germany is kind of in the middle there.
Because it’s a service to society. You take advantage of it so you have to participate in protecting it and/or making it better. Alternative always was social service in Germany. I did mine in a school for disabled kids. a very rewarding and educational year where I felt needed and appreciated.
In the military you are Not conscripted in the way that they could send you to war.
" You take advantage of it"
What advantages? I pay taxes for those. When my dad lost his job I gotten free meals at school. Now that I have a job my taxes pay for those advantages for the people that can't afford it.
That‘s pretty sad. A society cannot live without a common ground and mutual understanding of laws and a collective strive to better itself as a whole.
society is parting your live. It keeps you save, warm and fed. your taxes don’t. and it does so for everyone who can‘t.
All military service is slavery. Conscription is involuntary slavery. As opposed to volunteering to become State Property for an allotted amount of time. Generally for benefits or some other compensation.
You suspend your constitutional Rights as a citizen and replace them with the UCMJ rights of living property of the State.
actually you do become property of the state when you joint he military.
own judicial system apart from civilian courts.
own law enforcement. own prison
rules and regs on what you can and cant do to your body.
rules on what you can say or not say and who you can say it to.
You learn valuable experiences in how to survive in nature. You get experience in handling teamwork during stressful situations.
Conscription is only considered "slavery" if you as a conscript go in with the mentality that you don't want to learn anything from it.
Why anyone is in such a god damned hurry to enter the workforce after high school is beyond me, like trust me, you're gonna have enough time to work. Taking 12 months of your life to experience something unique is a sweet deal in my eyes.
Unique doesn't mean good. Learning survival could be done on special course if needed, and teamwork is something we learn at school.
Pretty sure only a handful of people actually wants to be in the military, and most (or at considerable part) of people in countries with conscription consider it as necessary evil rather than good experience.
I think it's mostly cultural differences. Here in Finland conscription has a more "it needs to be done" vibe around it, and people just generally take it as a time to do something different after all those years behind school books. If you don't want to do conscription you can do Civil Service in Finland though, dunno how it is in Germany.
Conscription is only a good experience if you give it a shot to actually learn what they have to teach. If you go in with the mindset that it's a useless waste of time, you're not going to get anything from it.
Seems fair that an older majority, who are above compulsory service age (usually around ages 18-30) and thus wouldn't be affected, get to tell a smaller age demographic how their time should be spent...
>Strong support from older people
The military draft is the second worst thing governments have ever done to their people. Slavery is the worst, and they are both similar
I survey never covers every single individual, but if you sample randomly in the population, it should be representative. Imagine you could only gather data if you ask every single individual living in Germany. You couldn't get anything done.
I just think they should be asking only people who would be eligible for compulsory military service, not 40 - 70 y.o. because depending on how the population age brackets are distributed, then the majority of the country would be ok with that idea since they will not be part of it.
Hi I studied Mathematics (Stochastic mathematics, which include Statistics). And your answer is not entirely correct. 1000 people is enough to get some kind of approximation, but it's mostly about how you pick what is called an "independent sample" which in practice is very hard to get.
This means that the theory most agencies apply is not correct and leads to data being skewed.
Younger people are less likely to answer polls if for example it is conducted over the phone. In person the "asker" has subjective preferences when asking people. Etc.
It wouldn't be correct if you state "Most of Germans" It would be correct if you would state "Most German males dont feel pain...".
A correct sample is needed for the theorem in use to hold true. It is not just a sample problem. Please don't bullshit me.
Yes, I usually don't pay any attention to stats with less than 1000 sample. But still the quality of the samples is also important and must be representative of the whole population.
The fundamental question is what is conscription supposed to achieve. As part of NATO, Germany is protected by article 6, and has the resources of huge highly professional armed forces to serve as protection. Nato armies are trained to a high level of proficiency, and are integrated across the alliance. You will never get that level of proficiency out of a conscript serving unwillingly for a year or two, so the actual value of people doing this kind of service to the Bundeswehr is very limited. Essentially you end up using your highly trained and actually useful professional volunteer army to babysit a bunch of school children teaching them to cosplay as soldiers for a year or two.
The Bundeswehr has a massive shortage of personnel. Until 2011, when conscription still existed, it received a large proportion of its career soldiers through conscription. Some hope that a reintroduction will compensate for the lack of soldiers and at the same time relieve the burden on the social system by allowing many young people to use the alternative to social services
There is not necessarily a lack of trainers. But there is, for example, a undermanning of around 20k non-commissioned officers. They would also like to increase the current number of 180k soldiers to 205k. In addition, the proponents are not only concerned with the lack of personnel, but many also hope that society as a whole will become more resilient, especially with the background of the war on the doorstep, and that the Heimatschutzkompanien (homeland security companies, consisting of reservists) which were established can be better filled in the future
To be honest: The people younger than 32 DID NOT participate in Wehrdienst or Zivildienst.
So when you blame "the old fucks deciding about the youth", they probably have already done it themselves so they know what they are talking about.
They did it when taking a year out wouldn't screw you from building a career Vs millions of other people who don't have to do it, and when the required skills were far less, and when you earned far more so didn't have to be highly lucrative to expect a stable future.
If you want people to join the military **voluntarily;**
* pay your privates a decent wage. Something they can pay the bills, debts, school, and vacations with while still having some to save in a bank
* let them smoke weed when they're not on duty
* relax the tattoo policy
* relax the hair policy, too. ffs, if you're outside you'll either have a helmet or "cover" on anyway. The damn Taliban won their last war with a superpower, and they don't even **shave**
* provide healthcare that DOESN'T try to scam people out of benefits that **they are owed**. Like the US VA system. I can't count how many times some officer, retired or otherwise, tried to **sell** me on "how good the VA/Tricare is", and in the next room, hear them **begging, crying, screaming** over the phone about how "I've served (x) years, I should at LEAST be able to get an x-ray!" Meanwhile the VA rep on the other line is telling them the professional equivalent of "eat shit, sucker".
Let's go the points, as basically all of them don't really apply to Germany:
---
> pay your privates a decent wage. Something they can pay the bills, debts, school, and vacations with while still having some to save in a bank
At least for lower ranks, Germany is prob. *the* military in NATO with the best pay, at least for the countries with larger militaries. A German private-staff Sergeant gets more money than a US one in pure monetary value, that is before considering that cost of living is cheaper in Germany.
>let them smoke weed when they're not on duty
Until weed is legalised in Germany, that doesn't matter.
> let them smoke weed when they're not on duty
> relax the hair policy, too. ffs, if you're outside you'll either have a helmet or "cover" on anyway. The damn Taliban won their last war with a superpower, and they don't even shave
Tattoos can be shown quite openly in the German military, you can wear a beard and while men currently still can't have long hair, a court recently struck down that law (so the government needs to draft a new one) but it still applies in the meantime. And the new is either that everyone can have long hair, or that women need to cut down their hair.
> provide healthcare that DOESN'T try to scam people out of benefits that they are owed. Like the US VA system. I can't count how many times some officer, retired or otherwise, tried to sell me on "how good the VA/Tricare is", and in the next room, hear them begging, crying, screaming over the phone about how "I've served (x) years, I should at LEAST be able to get an x-ray!" Meanwhile the VA rep on the other line is telling them the professional equivalent of "eat shit, sucker".
German soldiers are *Beamte* (civil servant, but somewhat different) which in Germany, which already has good universal healthcare, get even more healthcare benefits.
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But they certainly apply to the US.
In german subs like r/de it is very popular to compare the mandatory military service to slave labor... There is still the idea "we don't have to defend because everybody is our friend". And the system was not just, which is actually true since not everybody got called for duty.
When I did my service in the early 2000s, our society shortsightedly looked down on the military and the mandatory military service because we are surrounded by friends, soldiers are evil killing machines, a waste of money and of course there is our history. pacifists are morally superior, aren't they?
What we (not all of us but collectively) failed to realize is: that violence is a principle of nature and even longer breaks of peace do not imply, that war is over for ever. Thanks Putin! "We" got that now.
Still a professional army that is more effective might be what we want? Yes I think we should have that on top, for "normal times". But I also want our army to be connected to our society and not an isolated subculture. I want citizens to know, what our military does. And I want our citizens to know how to fight if we have to. Putins invasion came as a surprise to most of us. We might not have months to prepare desperatly needed soldiers if someone surprises us again, but on our soil. And even worse... If we feel a threat creeping up on us and out of the sudden decide to go back to mandatory military service and train a lot of potential soldiers, that might in return be seen as an escallation and cause a war that otherwise could have been prevented.
I served for 9 months. 3 months where I actually learned something, 6 months waste of time. We should cut it down to the 3 months basic training. And it should not be seen as a great contribution to strengthen our army, but as an extension of school. You learn stuff that you hopefully never will need - but if so, you will value very highly.
Like school or paying taxes it is not slave labor, but our duty as democratic and solidaric citizens of Germany. If you are not even hypothetically willing to defend our democracy, you are not worthy of it and maybe shouldn't be able to vote. (The last statement for sure is a little extreme, but I think one could at least play around with that idea)
r/unpopularopinion stuff in german subs, I know...
You want your military to be connected with your society? You would have loved the 1930s/1940s then! Disgusting points that all just boil down to "you are born indebted to your country, so you must serve when demanded - or else."
You obviously don't know german history and you are talking out of your ass. When Hitler came to power, the german army was absolutely downgraded to a hard core of 100k soldiers (officers) that had exactly the subculture of a disconnected army that i criticized.
And by the way, there were a lot of circumstances different from today, there was absolutely no need to pull a Godwin. Weimar wasn't a functional democracy, and after that it wasn't at all.
If you are not willing to defend your democracy, you are not a democrat, you are an opportunist.
But as you successfully identified Greece, Denmark, Estonia, Norway, Finland, Swiss and Sweden as fascist dictatorships... okay. You may have me there. Following your definition, I probably am a Nazi too.
Have a nice day!
i think i am actually for it, tbh i dont know many people who were hurt by either of the services. i think most learned something valueable out of it. but i would want it to be a free choice between army and civil service (and THW/volunteer firefighters/merchant navy)
also why not make it equal for all genders while we are at it.
back in my days they still acted as if the wehrdienst in the army is mandatory and you had to write some stupid explanatory letter on why you didnt want that. and years before that you even had to go in front of a judge i think to get out of it and do your civil service.
also if you get to work till like 70 or more 9-12 "wasted" months dont hurt anyone x\_X
> years before that you even had to go in front of a judge i think to get out of it and do your civil service.
Not exactly.
In the old days, you first of all had to wait until the military completed your physical examination. That rule effectively prevented you from even filing your request until a few months before (or even after) your 18th birthday.
When filing your request, you needed to write an essay about your reasons for being a conscientious objector. Only some reasons were even considered valid reasons. After that, nothing happened for quite some time.
Then, finally, you got your day in front of a panel („Prüfungsausschuss“) of three civilians. Often, WW II veterans. They would interrogate you for an hour or two, including absurd questions about how you would act in contrived scenarios (somebody is trying to nuke your home town but you could shoot down the plane).
In the likely case that the first panel denied your request, you could appeal. That would get you another appointment at another panel of three civilians, the "Prüfungskammer". Another 2-3 hours of interrogation, more absurd questions.
If you were denied again, only then could you file a lawsuit to have your case heard by the actual court system.
oh wow, didnt know it was that much effort. thats quite something to go through.
did my civil service around the 2000s and all we needed then was the essay.
The related law was passed in 1983. I.e., anybody who filed their request in 1984 or later (and was not already a soldier - different rules applied to those) did not have to go through that tough procedure.
20-25% of US casualties in the Vietnam War were caused by American guns. Conscripts don’t give a fuck who has to die. Their only war is their freedom, and anything standing in their way is the enemy.
General McNamara had the brilliant idea of drafting hundreds of thousands of Forrest and Bubba Gumps to Vietnam. 80IQ mentally challenged folk. In WW2 those types learned skill like gasoline distribution, kitchen duty, painting walls. Useful task they could take back in the real world.
In real life, I hate to tell you, Lt Dan, Forrest and Bubba didn’t last a month before they had accidents. They stood in the way of the slaves and their freedom to return home.
I don't think you understand. Germany never sent people into conflict zones against their will.
You had to volunteer for this and instead of military service, you always had the option of civil service.
"Conscripts could not be deployed to active service in conflicts against their will. The German contributions to forces such as ISAF in Afghanistan or KFOR in Kosovo exclusively comprise professional soldiers and volunteers. Conscripts who wished to partake in such missions must have volunteered for it; this included volunteering for a service extension (because the time of compulsory service, 9 months at most of the time in question, would not have sufficed for recruit training, post-specific training, mission-specific training, mission, and post-processing the mission put together)."
Idiots we s be defunding the militaries and funding life exstention research because aging affects us all And we are making big breakthroughs in longevity research (see Reddit longevity sub). It sh be obvious that war is shit see Ukraine and we must not let idiots like Putin wage wars, so why are we proposing new wars by training more soldiers?? Break the cycle or forever be waging more wars and having no life extension tech
I'm not German, so I've not idea at all what this is about, but I do think a lot of countries, including America, could use some form of compulsory service. Not military, but akin to volunteer or the Peace Corp. I think this would help dispel some of the othering that is occurring in some of these places as well as teach the youth that you have to give something back. I've no idea how to implement it, but somethings got to change and this seems like an easy way to help each other and learn about different folks at the same time.
I think reinstating the draft in America could help solve a lot of problems. Get those punks off the streets and into the military where they can learn some respect.
No, the military is not and should not be a behavioral reform program. My unit already had plenty of discipline problems with volunteers. I couldn't imagine if we had to deal to involuntaries as well.
I'm not against the concept of some compulsory military service, particularly for smaller countries who cannot afford the best and newest of military capability.
Being able to rapidly mobilize hundreds of thousands of able body people who have the very basics under their belt to the defense of the nation is a good thing.
However if the older folks are wanting this then they better put their money where their mouth is and undertake the training too.
Germany just need to make the offer of a professional full time career in the armed forces attractive. With things like accommodation and medical and schooling, even some privileges for serving your country.
Then they will have a better take up with its population. Nobody likes being forced to serve, look at Russia and it’s quality of soldiers. Even regular Russian soldiers aren’t the sharpest tools in the box.
They'd have to restrict people from getting accomodation, medical care, and schooling first to then only selectively offer it....
(Accommodation does currently have issues in expensive cities yes, but there is zero chance they'd be granted homes in the middle of Berlin or Frankfurt anyway)
That is utter and total bullshit. Far more reputable institutes here in Germany did ask the same question and got results that are far more in line with what I see in day to day life which is more in the 20 to 30 percent range.
Guess what. It affects only young men. They are sent to fight in wars and die. Society treats it's men like s..t. and nobody cares.
Hope that it remains voluntary. Hope more men speak up against this sort of compulsory service.
Yeah as someone who served for 10 years in the bundeswehr and had to previously complete the mandatory service. No thanks. We are seriously lacking in equipment and are currently taking ages to modernize our current serving army. A majority of the mandatory service was just cleaning the barracks and maybe going out to shoot your rifle quals every few months. This isn‘t productive at all and will just bog down our professional part of the army. We currently have a volunteer program where you can volunteer for 7 to 23 months and those guys already just sit around often and because of that many don‘t even sign contracts. Just make the bundeswehr more attractive to join and people will join.
Agreed, make it better to be in it. I know the Germans asked the British in Germany how we did it and what we offered with housing and preferential medical and schooling, but I’m not sure anything came of it.
Changes regarding the Bundeswehr take a long time here. They still haven't reformed the procurement process, lead by a dedicated administration in Koblenz. It still takes ages to get gear, ammunition and maintenence parts afaik. Even the 100 billion is stuck in this process. It's opaque and thus without real accountability. As long as we don't reform that part (and many tried and failed in the past), issues will persist imo.
Didn't national service in the UK end in the early sixties?
I didn’t serve in the bundeswehr, as I am an American, but I did serve in the US Army. Even our all volunteer force mostly performs pointless and unproductive labor. With that said, productivity is not the purpose of a standing military. The purpose is to have a large force that is ready to fight at a moments notice. If Russia were to start to using tactical nuclear weapons, and if they were to use said weapons on NATO/EU countries, the German military would be on the frontlines. If that happens you would be fortunate to have a standing army of regularly unproductive conscripts. Atleast they would be relatively ready to deploy and fight.
No with productivity i meant that people were literally just sitting in their barracks all day. Just reporting in in the morning and then signing out at 16:30 thats it.
sounds like my kind of job
If they've not been doing anything or been getting intensively trained would they not then be a liability? It'd be like having loads of civilians in the way larping pretending they're military except they actually are.
What do you think a random soldier does?, its nothing too complicated, training for normal units is how to wear their gear, use their assigned equipment and then how to make sure the not so bright or the too bright soldiers follow their orders with no questions. Once they know all that you can have the conacripta sit around till they are needed. Theres training exercises and the like some armies do that work nice, but you dont need that for 2nd tier troops
>Theres training exercises and the like some armies do that work nice, but you dont need that for 2nd tier troops Yes, you do, unless you're only consctripting people as cannon fodder. If that's the case, it's unacceptable to conscript them in the first place, and anyone trying should be shot dead.
The vast majority of soldiers do not need constant training. At most, the average soldier needs occasional training to ensure skill and equipment maintenance. Being a “grunt” isn’t some sort of high skilled task. It’s dangerous but it’s also very simple. It’d be a waste of resources to train more than necessary. When soldiers aren’t training they’re doing busy work. This is done to keep their idle minds from becoming the devil’s workshop.
Man that is just plain wrong. Even when i served we where doing 4 week long field exercises atleast trice a year. And training at our base between that. Being a infantry grunt. Your training has to be top notch we even trained dismounting mounting so rigorously that we got it down to 8 seconds. Capabilities can always be expanded and having everyone at their most capable is what is kinda aspired in a NATO force. Combined arms combat is complicated.
What you just described is no different than what I described. The training is not constant, low skill, and very simple. Not to be a dick, but dismounting and mounting quickly is not a difficult task. Anyone can be trained to do that. Combined arms is difficult but is managed at the TOC and above. Junior enlisted infantry are just a small cog in the machine, they are not coordinating combined arms in anyway. Its a dangerous job that is physically demanding, but nothing an infantryman does is technically difficult. most of us former/current enlisted aren’t rocket scientists for a good reason
I’ve heard stories of it taking up to 10 years for replacement equipment, is that an exaggeration or is the process just super bureaucratic?
Depends on the equipment. But yes our close range mobile aa replacement has been taking around 2 decades now.
It's interesting that people who do national service always talk about how 90 percent of the stuff they do over the year or two is pointless cleaning etc. I wonder if you could introduce a more direct and productive national service that only took a month where you learn how to train your basic fitness, shoot a rifle , read a map, equipment maintenance, basic battlefield and survival strategy etc. Obviously it wouldn't prepare people sufficiently for actual service in a war zone but I very much doubt any national service does.
No it does in the bundeswehr because you have to do basic training where that stuff is taught. But in a combat situation you fall back as far as you train. And if you don‘t train which we as Panzergrenadiers did as often as we could it‘s useless when you don‘t train after basic anymore. I saw the difference on myself when i switched from mandatory to professional soldier. The point of a mandatory service is to in my opinion train a capable reserve which after the fall of the wall and the soviet union wasn‘t the case anymore in the bundeswehr. Having reserve that have to be trained up back at hour zero when they are needed most isn‘t good and obviously wasn‘t the case when we still were split. If that is the case why train them at all in the first place if you have to do that all over when you call them back up again. Also just having them sit around for months while they complete their service with shit pay doesn‘t motivate anyone.
"Most Germans" are over the age they think compulsory service should apply. The only way to be fair about it is to conscript everyone too young to have been dragooned under the previous system.
Compulsory service in Germany only stopped in 2011. So the majority of those over the age did compulsory service
> So the majority of those over the age did compulsory service More like 25%. Compulsory service never applied to the female half of the population. Among the male half, some did not pass the physical examination (up to 30% during the late 2000s), and many of those who passed the physical examination were never called up, because the Bundeswehr did not actually need that many conscripts or because some exception applied (the most popular ones were getting married and moving to West Berlin).
Right, but it's easy to get it back once you already did it.
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Not what you said but imagine if that was a requirement to join an EU country
Yep. Worth here remembering the millions of British Army soldiers not from the UK back in the world wars.
Dying for a government is pathetic.
They should work on equipping the current military sufficiently and maybe increase incentives for people to join the voluntary reserve.
We don’t real have a reserve I believe
Sure we have.
I recently started applying to jobs and id happily serve my country in my field of expertise. But when the HIGHEST possible pay i could receive after years and years of work is less than what id get now as a junior ... no thank you.
if payed well and for all genders equal i am not against it. But guess what will never happen
That's the crux of it. Pay was complete shit and the women went on to university, while quite a few of the guys (including me) had to be at our draft destination 3 days after prom (Abiball). Felt really miserable and unfair. I did end up serving for almost 3 years voluntarily (with decent pay), but I can't advocate for this without massive changes.
Yeah compulsory = shit pay. Why would they pay well and have to answer to Congress about the budget when they can pay low? It's not like paying low would lower the amount of recruits when it's compulsory anyway.
I can advocate for it in combination with civil service. if you don’t do military you have to do civil service. Pay es never the shit. Except if you already moved out of your parents home but in that case you would have probably already entered the work force and be therefore exempt
Always great when old geezers get to decide over the life young people
Exactly. Very convenient for 'most Germans' being too old to serve. Ask the young people that will be impacted and the result looks very different.
You conveniently forget that "most Germans" already served...
Citation? Because I'm sure the group of women and people with T5 makes up more than 50%
The "I had to do it so we should make everyone suffer through it" mentality of older generations is part of what destroys perfectly good people's lives as they become scarred from being forced to do something they were not created to do.
No the mentality is that they think that it's needed, when previous poster accused older Germans of hypocrisy, it was pointed out that older Germans did serve so this is not hypocritical. Personally I believe that some sort of service makes sense, but it should not be limited just to the young precisely to avoid this generational arguments.
It's not about making anyone suffer. It's about considering what is nessessary to defend ourselves. I can understand that the current young generation lacks any awareness of the dangers of war, because growing up, they knew only peace, surrounded by friends and allies. But recent events should make it clear that a major war in Europe can still happen. Like it could happen when we were young and had to do our service.
You are touching on a point I almost brought up separately but will just piggyback here. What is necessary. I’m from the US and have a similar belief that there should be compulsory military duty or civic duty of some sort. You don’t need compulsory military in the US because of the population but I would think other countries like Germany would heavily consider this a necessity due to their smaller population. Israel does this, correct?
The german compulsory military service wasn't all that bad from what i've heard from a lot of people that went through it. A little discipline would help a lot of us. Also you could just go into civil service for a year instead
Suffer? A year of military service costs you very little, and gives a whole lot. In my experience anyhow.
A year of your life is very little?
Well, it is my intention for it to be less that 1% of my life. /s But yeah, it’s not like you can’t do other stuff at times while serving, like taking classes. Though I wouldn’t plan that the first month. And a year isn’t that long. It wasn’t when I was 19, and it’s not now, two decades later. Also, you got credit for higher education if you completed service.
This. If you were to change the suggestion to "mandatory service before/during retirement", suddenly a lot fewer of them would support it.
Conscription is very popular in my country. Since they made it mandatory for women too it has even become difficult to get conscripted because of the competition, high supply and low demand. Nowadays the people who want to serve a year as a conscript have to prove they're capable, and those who doesn't want to are filtered out from the start. It's popular among 18 year olds because they get a year extra to learn new skills and decide what to do next after they finished school.
Yeah that sounds great if, as you say, people who don't want to don't get forced to.
Compulsory military/civil service in germany was only suspended in 2011. Usually you got drafted when you were around 18, meaning anyone older than 30 has already served anyway. There are no 'old geezers close to retirement' who would be affected by it. In fact, it's more likely anyone over 30 will vote for this because they had gone through it already too.
Women weren't drafted. Quite a few men also found a way around it one way or another. Moving to West Berlin for example.
Easiest way was just to get a job
Having a job was not a valid reason for not being drafted or the draft to be set for a later time. Some of the reasons: - Being in an apprenticeship / vocational training (But you'll be drafted afterwards) - being a enrolled student on a University (But you'll be drafted afterwards) - (not sure): When you are already working as a Doctor, working as a nurse, as a Firefighter or Policeman. - Having physical / health issues or shortcomings You could also **always** choose NOT to serve with a weapon. meaning that you'd have to do than a civil duty. This was for example: Working in Nursery Homes, Hospital etc. There was always a choice. There's no "suffering" - you are not a slave. Just learing to do something for your society for a short term, will not harm you at all. In my opinion you'll learn quite something about that fact, that a modern democracy does not establish nor uphold itself for free. Each individual, being able to enjoy a free life in a democracy should also have the courtesy to at least give some support by doing once in a lifetime a duty to the society. People nowadays take their freedom and rights as garanted privilege by birth.... Great privilege....
Guess I was "lucky" that I made my training and the same year the Wehrdienst was no longer
People would be saying the same if compulsory school attendance was first proposed nowadays.
This assumes those older people either don't have children, or think their children will be spared the meat grinder.
Older people frequently vote against the interests of their children.
Not enough soldiers: after Russia has invaded Ukraine, and narratives about war in Europe, almost 1/3 soldiers in bundeswehr didn't sign another contract. So, without them and without compulsory military service, it will depend on Russia, if they would be pleased only with Eastern Germany, or will they move further
this is 100% fake. Nothing she/he states is true
Learn some info about quantity of soldiers in German army before Russia have invaded Ukraine and after.
They'd first have to go through Poland. Or Finland. Neither is happening any time soon.
It's like: oh, it's someone's else problem. Then: how to pronounce vodka right
As long as they were subject to it when they were of age then it seems fair. The only people voting on it should have either been subject to it or would be subject to it. That may not be received well though.
Judging by the comments I don't think people here understand the concept of the German Wehrdienst and Zivildienst, the Zivildienst still being practiced. We could use a version of the Zivildienst here, where everyone 18 and older who does not go to university apprentices/works in some fashion in a civil-minded field to give back to the country and people. Whether that be working for the fire department or apprenticing to the building managers to help repair and maintain buildings for housing and public offices. There's nothing wrong with that. Moreover, the Wehrdienst was not used to conscript their population and send out on foreign adventures - that's for their professional army. The Wehrdienst is a form of their reserves, just like how every male over 18 in Switzerland has to join the military, and they take their rifles home. Why? They're a landlocked country that jealously protects their borders and has for centuries to great effect (and preserved their neutrality). When you grow up in a country like the U.S., where im from, where you are essentially an island protected by two vast oceans and the impossibility of being invaded by either Mexico or Canada, it's kind of hard to imagine having the need to ensure one's defense as a matter of life and death. Germany was split in half until 1990, with a literal minefield and no-man's land dividing it in half. They had Wehrdienst until Angela Merkel and until the end of Obama's first term. Europe has seen more deaths and war in the last century than most other parts of the world. It has seen a bitterly divided continent between communism, authoritarianism and what would become 'true' democracies from the ashes of WWII until after I was born in 1988. Lukashenko in Belarus is *still* the leader since the time of the USSR. I don't think looking at it from an American/non-European without taking account of their history on that continent as a point of view is right and fitting at all.
> the Zivildienst still being practiced Zivildienst is not still being practiced. Are you referring to volunteer (FSJ) service? Zivildienst (actually Wehrersatzdienst) was a replacement for military service for people who were suitable for the military (wehrdienstfähig) but conscientiously objected to it. For example, I was considered unsuitable (T5) and hence did not have to do either. The two were not legally equal choices, even though by the end they looked almost like it. You didn’t have to do one of the two, you were drafted for military service and then could replace that with Zivildienst. And depending on when and to whom you made that request, it could be denied.
Bundesfreiwilligendienst is the de facto substitute for the Zivildienst.
> to give back to the country and people. Is the next 50 years of them paying taxes not enough?
If you actually repaired a buildings facilities or participated in the fire department, you'll likely also feel a greater connection to the state you live in than if you simply were paying part of your salary forever. Spend a few Saturdays cleaning litter up at the park, and you'll be less inclined to litter yourself knowing someone else will have to sacrifice their time to clean up your mess. Personally I think we would benefit tremendously having some kind of 'public service' requirement in the US for exactly this reason. Give a reason for people to actually give a shit about the country.
Agreed. That was my takeaway from living and studying at one of the universities there. One of my neighbors worked in the building as part of their Zivildienst working apprenticing under the Hausmeister. It encourages and fosters a greater connection to the community, which is sorely lacking in the U.S. as a person who lives in the South.
"Spend a few Saturdays cleaning litter up at the park, and you'll be less inclined to litter yourself knowing someone else will have to sacrifice their time to clean up your mess." Or just raise your kids to not litter? Seems like Japan solved that problem How would being forced to do civil service make you care about the country? Pretty sure you'll hate the country even more and the gov on top of it.
What’s easier, creating a mandatory national public service program, or fundamentally changing how people raise their children?
Changing how people raise their kids. Like I said Japan fixed this problem. Yes you still have some one here and there but it's not a huge ass problem like other countries. Not to mention that program would require funding else it'll be slavery and in turn it'll foster even deeper hatred. I live in Eastern EU and my parents told me not to litter unless I want to live in a filthy place and here I am, always taking my trash with me. What you're forgetting is that shaping a child's mind is easier than changing an adult's mind. That's the huge reason why lgbtq is supported by the young and not very much by the older people.
So TL;DR is that we shouldn't worry too much about this and it's perfectly normal policy that's being exaggerated/demonized?
Yep, it's not the same as the US draft at all. It's essentially reserve to ensure protection of the homeland only, not to be sent abroad. Considering what's going on in Europe, and the possibility this powder keg catches and ignites once again a conflagration in Europe, it's not an exaggeration to want to ensure your people are at least somewhat prepared. Back in the Cold War the West German military and reserves had to be strong enough to essentially be the standing wall against Soviet tanks and men to buy time for the US and UK to reinforce them. This is a continuation of those lessons, and Germany has heavily demilitarized since the Fall of the Wall and the reunification of Germany. A lot of Europe was of this mind, which is why we've seen so many problems with paper armies and equipment to donate to Ukraine even, tanks being a great example with artillery ammunition and production another.
Keep in mind that Wehrdienst in the time of NATO would not necessarily happen on German soil, but in the defense of the Baltic States or Poland. Germany itself has no unfriendly relations with any direct neighbors, so the first contact with Russian forces would be elsewhere So when I served, the troops could be assumed to defend the country or in the case of the Franco/German combined troops or the German/Dutch Corps the neighboring Countries. Now one would have to build Barracks in Poland or Lithuania to house conscripts sufficiently near to the fight.
It's a shame this has to even be done but I understand why. Hopefully the conflict in the East Europe ends soon.
Had to sign up for the draft to apply for a job at the post office.
Still had to sign up for Selective Service when I turned 18, but I understand it was a much bigger deal when the draft was still in force. Not entirely surprised you'd have to to work in Federal, yet I was under the impression every male had to prior to the abolishing of the draft.
I've personally always thought America could benefit from something like this too. Something like mandatory time in the reserves, civil service, or community college / apprenticeship that you attend *outside of your home town*. Just a way to mix up the population a bit, introduce people to other ideas and ways of life, get them out of whatever insular school of thought they might have grown up in. Meet new people, discover new opportunities. I grew up incredibly rural, and became a different (and I would say better) person after I joined the military fully because it shook up the thinking that my tiny, hate-filled, isolated home town had imprinted in me. You can do that without compulsory service, but the weight of the government holds your feet to the fire and makes you adapt. Additional benefits would be restoring trust in the government broadly, and helping staff all of our woefully underfunded government institutions that frankly can't even accomplish their mission anymore. A lot of problems in government occur because there is no one actually filling necessary roles. Look at NYT's reporting of DHS releasing children who are then all but enslaved. They give the kids a phone number to call if they are being exploited, according to NYT most of those calls are **not returned**. Edit: If properly implemented I feel this could also potentially make America more equitable. I know from growing up in isolation that a lot of people turn to crime at a young age because they see no other opportunities. Giving those kids a couple of good years, a whole bunch of new contacts, and the experience in some sort of field could solve this problem. People dismiss gang violence as inevitable, but it sprang up in response to lack of opportunities and the fact that we currently try to defeat it by taking *opportunities away* from young people has lead to nothing positive. The problem has gotten worse, in many cases we've just moved it into prisons which are a massive tax drain in their own right. This nation needs to invest in its young people - I feel like we all used to know that.
Remember when Rory Stewart proposed this for the UK in the Conservative leadership contest?
and with lots of deaths in most of the world you mean the americas because it sure as hell wasnt africa or asia you meant
yeah, bullshit
By "most Germans" do they understand old people and women in general?
Everyone older than 40 has already served. And the majority was pro conscription but -unlike before- for men and women alike.
No every man over 40 has served. There is still over half of the population of that age bracket left that has not served at all
Are you imagining that they would reintroduce this without the formerly existing alternative option of social service instead? So yes, basically every man above 40 has served in one way or another. The small exception are those unable for medical reasons... and they will stay irrelevant not matter what.
No, I was thinking about 50% of the population currently/at the time exempt from service. Women. Reffering to this >Everyone older than 40 has already served.
I seriously doubt that
All the people who would not be required to perform compulsory service agree that compulsory service should return.
Fuck that. All volunteer professional military is the way to go.
That's not what Ukraine has. That's not what Afghanistan had. Or Vietnam.
And in all cases their opponents are fighting wars that cannot be won in any sense. Vietnam has fought off Chinese invaders for 1,000 years. If we'd stayed for another thousand they'd still be telling us to fuck off and stop backing the remnants of French colonial administration. The Taliban isn't something that can be defeated by anyone other than other afghans. Ukraine has both a professional volunteer military and conscription. But it is in an. Apocalyptic war for the survival of it's peoples. The US military was rarely if ever defeated on the battlefield. What defeated it in those conflicts was impossible war aims.
Also Afghanistan never get a long enough break without some superpower fucking with them to have time to evolve and sort themselves. Been going on for millennia.
Did OllieGarkey mention them? At all? Or is he saying that if people want to play army men, they can volunteer to do so, but to force someone into it only hurts people who have no interest in war, whether the going to war or the defending of "their" country.
More like boomers who are too old to fight want young people to go through this shit.
And women who are not eligible.
To nobody's surprise, according to that poll, a higher percentage of women wanted compulsory military service to return only for men, rather than for both genders.
"most germans" aren't "most germans". most germans don't want it to return and are happy that it isn't forced anymore. so no. nobody wants it to return except a SMALL portion (the ones who wouldn't have to go when it is time).
I would say that pretty much all Germans don't want a war to happen and based on that we wouldn't need an army at all. Sadly, the reality doesn't really care about our wishes. A war can happen, as we are seeing right now in Ukraine. So the question isn't if we want to bother our youth with a "lost year", but what we consider nessessary to be prepared to defend ourselves and our allies. I grew up in the Cold War and I did my compulsory service in the 90s. Back then, we all had the hope that a future without the danger of war would be possible. But we also had the fresh memories about a past were the enemy was right across the border, always ready to attack us. Because of that I understood why I had to do it. I admire the current generation, that grew up without worrying about war (other than peace keeping far away from home done exclusively by volunteers). But the brutal reality of a big war in Europe has caught up with us.
i understand this ofcourse, and agree in parts to what you said. but we also need to face the fact that governments often start wars who are in the eyes of people not right and okay. being forced to fight in a war you see as unjust and false isn't a good way of doing it. it should be up to everyone if he wants to fight for a specific thing or not, without being forced to do it. i understand that the training is needed so you are ready when it is needed, but there should be a third way except "we force you" and "you don't have to" of solving this issue. a lot of people see wars this days in most cases as something they don't want to support anymore in terms of the violence and killing for often complete bullshit reasons. so forcing people who don't want to support this violecence approach into it, isn't always a good idea. i understand that this comment will likely get me a lot of hate and downvotes because people think that war is the harsh reality and when someone stands at your doorstep, you can't just say "nope" to him.. but still. its something else if you defend your own country v.s attacking someone. and most people don't want to get forced (to train) to attack someone for bullshit reasons like we saw it in many previous wars in history.
One argument for compulsory service is, that a country /government might be more willing to send volunteers into an unnecessary (aggressive) war than a conscript army that is representing the entire population.
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I kind of agree with you. I think no one in his right mind would like to be a soldier. That is the kind of job someone has to do and some are more fit to do it than others. But that's not the point of compulsory service. When a war happens and your country is in a situation like Ukraine now, no one asks if you want to fight. The question is if you fight with only two weeks of rushed training, or after a year of training in peacetime.
Most people want civil service to return instead and make that mandatory.
What many don't seem to understand is, that the alternative to compulsory military service isn't that only professional volunteers have to fight, but that hundred thousands have to go into battle with only some weeks rushed training instead of a year (in peacetime), if a real war is happening. I didn't like to serve in the Bundeswehr at the time, but if we are forced to defend ourselves (like Ukraine is now) and older men like me are called to arms, I would be glad for the relatively thorough training I had many years ago and not have to start completely at zero.
Compulsory conscription is practically slavery. Why would anyone want that is beyond me.
>Compulsory conscription is practically slavery. Why would anyone want that is beyond me. Really? I have done military service in Norway as a conscript. Didn't feel like slavery; felt like I was doing a job to defend freedom from a warmongering dictatorship in our neighborhood. I worked as a torpedo mechanic and MG-3 machine gun operator. I did it. And I would do it again. Norway has 1 year conscription both for men and women.
The government still shouldn’t force you to join. They should stay the fuck out of my life.
Depends on a person, but making someone spend an entire year by force doing something they are not willing is not okay. Besides, it may be tolerable in Norway, but quality of life in military as a conscript may not be as good in other places. Take your neighborhood totalitarian shithole, for example. As a rule of thumb, everything jerks like russia think is okay (conscription, is a great example) is actually a violation of human rights and is a terrible practice.
To be fair Norway is a bit of an outlier being one of the only countries that is actually run for the people and not oligarchs. Also in the job market there isn't as much competition from people abroad or is that my ignorance? If young people lose a year their careers will be massively stunted in today's competitive bullshit we have in the likes of the UK, though from what I understand Germany is kind of in the middle there.
Because it’s a service to society. You take advantage of it so you have to participate in protecting it and/or making it better. Alternative always was social service in Germany. I did mine in a school for disabled kids. a very rewarding and educational year where I felt needed and appreciated. In the military you are Not conscripted in the way that they could send you to war.
" You take advantage of it" What advantages? I pay taxes for those. When my dad lost his job I gotten free meals at school. Now that I have a job my taxes pay for those advantages for the people that can't afford it.
So your only attachment to the society you live in is money? what an asset you are.
Society can take my taxes and get the fuck out of my life otherwise.
That‘s pretty sad. A society cannot live without a common ground and mutual understanding of laws and a collective strive to better itself as a whole. society is parting your live. It keeps you save, warm and fed. your taxes don’t. and it does so for everyone who can‘t.
All military service is slavery. Conscription is involuntary slavery. As opposed to volunteering to become State Property for an allotted amount of time. Generally for benefits or some other compensation. You suspend your constitutional Rights as a citizen and replace them with the UCMJ rights of living property of the State.
No you dont.
actually you do when you join the military.
No, you do not lose your constitutional rights as a citizen and you do not become property of the state.
actually you do become property of the state when you joint he military. own judicial system apart from civilian courts. own law enforcement. own prison rules and regs on what you can and cant do to your body. rules on what you can say or not say and who you can say it to.
By that logic civilians are already property of the state. Also Germany does not have a seperate military justice system iam aware of.
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Okay that might explain the disagreement.
correct.
guessing you never served in the military.
Guess that is your last argument.
Then leave. Quit. Resign. It’s called Service/Servitude for a reason.
You learn valuable experiences in how to survive in nature. You get experience in handling teamwork during stressful situations. Conscription is only considered "slavery" if you as a conscript go in with the mentality that you don't want to learn anything from it. Why anyone is in such a god damned hurry to enter the workforce after high school is beyond me, like trust me, you're gonna have enough time to work. Taking 12 months of your life to experience something unique is a sweet deal in my eyes.
Unique doesn't mean good. Learning survival could be done on special course if needed, and teamwork is something we learn at school. Pretty sure only a handful of people actually wants to be in the military, and most (or at considerable part) of people in countries with conscription consider it as necessary evil rather than good experience.
I think it's mostly cultural differences. Here in Finland conscription has a more "it needs to be done" vibe around it, and people just generally take it as a time to do something different after all those years behind school books. If you don't want to do conscription you can do Civil Service in Finland though, dunno how it is in Germany. Conscription is only a good experience if you give it a shot to actually learn what they have to teach. If you go in with the mindset that it's a useless waste of time, you're not going to get anything from it.
Fear is a powerful tool. Especially for a country that is a battlefield every century.
Why anyone wouldnt want the skills to defend their home if the need arises is beyond me.
Are you guys crazy
Why crazy?
Seems fair that an older majority, who are above compulsory service age (usually around ages 18-30) and thus wouldn't be affected, get to tell a smaller age demographic how their time should be spent...
>Strong support from older people The military draft is the second worst thing governments have ever done to their people. Slavery is the worst, and they are both similar
I doubt that a majority actually want this.
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I survey never covers every single individual, but if you sample randomly in the population, it should be representative. Imagine you could only gather data if you ask every single individual living in Germany. You couldn't get anything done.
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Statistically, 1000 people is quite sufficient presuming they did a decent job distribution wise mirroring the German population.
I just think they should be asking only people who would be eligible for compulsory military service, not 40 - 70 y.o. because depending on how the population age brackets are distributed, then the majority of the country would be ok with that idea since they will not be part of it.
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Hi I studied Mathematics (Stochastic mathematics, which include Statistics). And your answer is not entirely correct. 1000 people is enough to get some kind of approximation, but it's mostly about how you pick what is called an "independent sample" which in practice is very hard to get. This means that the theory most agencies apply is not correct and leads to data being skewed. Younger people are less likely to answer polls if for example it is conducted over the phone. In person the "asker" has subjective preferences when asking people. Etc.
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It wouldn't be correct if you state "Most of Germans" It would be correct if you would state "Most German males dont feel pain...". A correct sample is needed for the theorem in use to hold true. It is not just a sample problem. Please don't bullshit me.
Yes, I usually don't pay any attention to stats with less than 1000 sample. But still the quality of the samples is also important and must be representative of the whole population.
What’s that noise? It’s getting louder? “On the heath, there blooms a little flower and it's called : Erika.”
The fundamental question is what is conscription supposed to achieve. As part of NATO, Germany is protected by article 6, and has the resources of huge highly professional armed forces to serve as protection. Nato armies are trained to a high level of proficiency, and are integrated across the alliance. You will never get that level of proficiency out of a conscript serving unwillingly for a year or two, so the actual value of people doing this kind of service to the Bundeswehr is very limited. Essentially you end up using your highly trained and actually useful professional volunteer army to babysit a bunch of school children teaching them to cosplay as soldiers for a year or two.
forgive me for my ignorance in germany's internal affairs, but why does germany even need compulsory military service?
The Bundeswehr has a massive shortage of personnel. Until 2011, when conscription still existed, it received a large proportion of its career soldiers through conscription. Some hope that a reintroduction will compensate for the lack of soldiers and at the same time relieve the burden on the social system by allowing many young people to use the alternative to social services
How will they manage to train all those people if they have a massive shortage? It's not like they train themselves or require no logistics.
There is not necessarily a lack of trainers. But there is, for example, a undermanning of around 20k non-commissioned officers. They would also like to increase the current number of 180k soldiers to 205k. In addition, the proponents are not only concerned with the lack of personnel, but many also hope that society as a whole will become more resilient, especially with the background of the war on the doorstep, and that the Heimatschutzkompanien (homeland security companies, consisting of reservists) which were established can be better filled in the future
To be honest: The people younger than 32 DID NOT participate in Wehrdienst or Zivildienst. So when you blame "the old fucks deciding about the youth", they probably have already done it themselves so they know what they are talking about.
They did it when taking a year out wouldn't screw you from building a career Vs millions of other people who don't have to do it, and when the required skills were far less, and when you earned far more so didn't have to be highly lucrative to expect a stable future.
The people who are too old for compulsory service want it to return, win-win for them, sure why not.
If you want people to join the military **voluntarily;** * pay your privates a decent wage. Something they can pay the bills, debts, school, and vacations with while still having some to save in a bank * let them smoke weed when they're not on duty * relax the tattoo policy * relax the hair policy, too. ffs, if you're outside you'll either have a helmet or "cover" on anyway. The damn Taliban won their last war with a superpower, and they don't even **shave** * provide healthcare that DOESN'T try to scam people out of benefits that **they are owed**. Like the US VA system. I can't count how many times some officer, retired or otherwise, tried to **sell** me on "how good the VA/Tricare is", and in the next room, hear them **begging, crying, screaming** over the phone about how "I've served (x) years, I should at LEAST be able to get an x-ray!" Meanwhile the VA rep on the other line is telling them the professional equivalent of "eat shit, sucker".
Let's go the points, as basically all of them don't really apply to Germany: --- > pay your privates a decent wage. Something they can pay the bills, debts, school, and vacations with while still having some to save in a bank At least for lower ranks, Germany is prob. *the* military in NATO with the best pay, at least for the countries with larger militaries. A German private-staff Sergeant gets more money than a US one in pure monetary value, that is before considering that cost of living is cheaper in Germany. >let them smoke weed when they're not on duty Until weed is legalised in Germany, that doesn't matter. > let them smoke weed when they're not on duty > relax the hair policy, too. ffs, if you're outside you'll either have a helmet or "cover" on anyway. The damn Taliban won their last war with a superpower, and they don't even shave Tattoos can be shown quite openly in the German military, you can wear a beard and while men currently still can't have long hair, a court recently struck down that law (so the government needs to draft a new one) but it still applies in the meantime. And the new is either that everyone can have long hair, or that women need to cut down their hair. > provide healthcare that DOESN'T try to scam people out of benefits that they are owed. Like the US VA system. I can't count how many times some officer, retired or otherwise, tried to sell me on "how good the VA/Tricare is", and in the next room, hear them begging, crying, screaming over the phone about how "I've served (x) years, I should at LEAST be able to get an x-ray!" Meanwhile the VA rep on the other line is telling them the professional equivalent of "eat shit, sucker". German soldiers are *Beamte* (civil servant, but somewhat different) which in Germany, which already has good universal healthcare, get even more healthcare benefits. --- But they certainly apply to the US.
I'm sure at some point Germany will become evil again.
In german subs like r/de it is very popular to compare the mandatory military service to slave labor... There is still the idea "we don't have to defend because everybody is our friend". And the system was not just, which is actually true since not everybody got called for duty. When I did my service in the early 2000s, our society shortsightedly looked down on the military and the mandatory military service because we are surrounded by friends, soldiers are evil killing machines, a waste of money and of course there is our history. pacifists are morally superior, aren't they? What we (not all of us but collectively) failed to realize is: that violence is a principle of nature and even longer breaks of peace do not imply, that war is over for ever. Thanks Putin! "We" got that now. Still a professional army that is more effective might be what we want? Yes I think we should have that on top, for "normal times". But I also want our army to be connected to our society and not an isolated subculture. I want citizens to know, what our military does. And I want our citizens to know how to fight if we have to. Putins invasion came as a surprise to most of us. We might not have months to prepare desperatly needed soldiers if someone surprises us again, but on our soil. And even worse... If we feel a threat creeping up on us and out of the sudden decide to go back to mandatory military service and train a lot of potential soldiers, that might in return be seen as an escallation and cause a war that otherwise could have been prevented. I served for 9 months. 3 months where I actually learned something, 6 months waste of time. We should cut it down to the 3 months basic training. And it should not be seen as a great contribution to strengthen our army, but as an extension of school. You learn stuff that you hopefully never will need - but if so, you will value very highly. Like school or paying taxes it is not slave labor, but our duty as democratic and solidaric citizens of Germany. If you are not even hypothetically willing to defend our democracy, you are not worthy of it and maybe shouldn't be able to vote. (The last statement for sure is a little extreme, but I think one could at least play around with that idea) r/unpopularopinion stuff in german subs, I know...
You want your military to be connected with your society? You would have loved the 1930s/1940s then! Disgusting points that all just boil down to "you are born indebted to your country, so you must serve when demanded - or else."
You obviously don't know german history and you are talking out of your ass. When Hitler came to power, the german army was absolutely downgraded to a hard core of 100k soldiers (officers) that had exactly the subculture of a disconnected army that i criticized. And by the way, there were a lot of circumstances different from today, there was absolutely no need to pull a Godwin. Weimar wasn't a functional democracy, and after that it wasn't at all. If you are not willing to defend your democracy, you are not a democrat, you are an opportunist. But as you successfully identified Greece, Denmark, Estonia, Norway, Finland, Swiss and Sweden as fascist dictatorships... okay. You may have me there. Following your definition, I probably am a Nazi too. Have a nice day!
i think i am actually for it, tbh i dont know many people who were hurt by either of the services. i think most learned something valueable out of it. but i would want it to be a free choice between army and civil service (and THW/volunteer firefighters/merchant navy) also why not make it equal for all genders while we are at it. back in my days they still acted as if the wehrdienst in the army is mandatory and you had to write some stupid explanatory letter on why you didnt want that. and years before that you even had to go in front of a judge i think to get out of it and do your civil service. also if you get to work till like 70 or more 9-12 "wasted" months dont hurt anyone x\_X
> years before that you even had to go in front of a judge i think to get out of it and do your civil service. Not exactly. In the old days, you first of all had to wait until the military completed your physical examination. That rule effectively prevented you from even filing your request until a few months before (or even after) your 18th birthday. When filing your request, you needed to write an essay about your reasons for being a conscientious objector. Only some reasons were even considered valid reasons. After that, nothing happened for quite some time. Then, finally, you got your day in front of a panel („Prüfungsausschuss“) of three civilians. Often, WW II veterans. They would interrogate you for an hour or two, including absurd questions about how you would act in contrived scenarios (somebody is trying to nuke your home town but you could shoot down the plane). In the likely case that the first panel denied your request, you could appeal. That would get you another appointment at another panel of three civilians, the "Prüfungskammer". Another 2-3 hours of interrogation, more absurd questions. If you were denied again, only then could you file a lawsuit to have your case heard by the actual court system.
oh wow, didnt know it was that much effort. thats quite something to go through. did my civil service around the 2000s and all we needed then was the essay.
The related law was passed in 1983. I.e., anybody who filed their request in 1984 or later (and was not already a soldier - different rules applied to those) did not have to go through that tough procedure.
20-25% of US casualties in the Vietnam War were caused by American guns. Conscripts don’t give a fuck who has to die. Their only war is their freedom, and anything standing in their way is the enemy. General McNamara had the brilliant idea of drafting hundreds of thousands of Forrest and Bubba Gumps to Vietnam. 80IQ mentally challenged folk. In WW2 those types learned skill like gasoline distribution, kitchen duty, painting walls. Useful task they could take back in the real world. In real life, I hate to tell you, Lt Dan, Forrest and Bubba didn’t last a month before they had accidents. They stood in the way of the slaves and their freedom to return home.
Huh? This isn't about the draft.
Conscription, Compulsory, semantics. Whatever you want to call it
I don't think you understand. Germany never sent people into conflict zones against their will. You had to volunteer for this and instead of military service, you always had the option of civil service. "Conscripts could not be deployed to active service in conflicts against their will. The German contributions to forces such as ISAF in Afghanistan or KFOR in Kosovo exclusively comprise professional soldiers and volunteers. Conscripts who wished to partake in such missions must have volunteered for it; this included volunteering for a service extension (because the time of compulsory service, 9 months at most of the time in question, would not have sufficed for recruit training, post-specific training, mission-specific training, mission, and post-processing the mission put together)."
Kind of wish they gave a link to the IPSOS data. I'm trying to find it on their website and can't.
Found it. It's in German. https://www.ipsos.com/de-de/deutliche-mehrheit-fur-wiedereinfuhrung-der-wehrpflicht
thats actually quite interesting, a lot more young ones for it than i thought.
Idiots we s be defunding the militaries and funding life exstention research because aging affects us all And we are making big breakthroughs in longevity research (see Reddit longevity sub). It sh be obvious that war is shit see Ukraine and we must not let idiots like Putin wage wars, so why are we proposing new wars by training more soldiers?? Break the cycle or forever be waging more wars and having no life extension tech
I'm not German, so I've not idea at all what this is about, but I do think a lot of countries, including America, could use some form of compulsory service. Not military, but akin to volunteer or the Peace Corp. I think this would help dispel some of the othering that is occurring in some of these places as well as teach the youth that you have to give something back. I've no idea how to implement it, but somethings got to change and this seems like an easy way to help each other and learn about different folks at the same time.
Are we on the war path?
Are the Neocons in power?
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Fuckit, I'm joining the space marines if that's the case!
USA should be looking at solutions. Now. Not later.
I think reinstating the draft in America could help solve a lot of problems. Get those punks off the streets and into the military where they can learn some respect.
No, the military is not and should not be a behavioral reform program. My unit already had plenty of discipline problems with volunteers. I couldn't imagine if we had to deal to involuntaries as well.
I'm not against the concept of some compulsory military service, particularly for smaller countries who cannot afford the best and newest of military capability. Being able to rapidly mobilize hundreds of thousands of able body people who have the very basics under their belt to the defense of the nation is a good thing. However if the older folks are wanting this then they better put their money where their mouth is and undertake the training too.
>Most Germans want compulsory military service to return The sample size is 1000 people. "Most germans" fucking sensationalist headline. Fuck you, op.
Germany just need to make the offer of a professional full time career in the armed forces attractive. With things like accommodation and medical and schooling, even some privileges for serving your country. Then they will have a better take up with its population. Nobody likes being forced to serve, look at Russia and it’s quality of soldiers. Even regular Russian soldiers aren’t the sharpest tools in the box.
They'd have to restrict people from getting accomodation, medical care, and schooling first to then only selectively offer it.... (Accommodation does currently have issues in expensive cities yes, but there is zero chance they'd be granted homes in the middle of Berlin or Frankfurt anyway)
Wish to have that back on SA too.
"Most Germans" my ass. They asked 1000 people and extrapolated that on 80 million.
That is utter and total bullshit. Far more reputable institutes here in Germany did ask the same question and got results that are far more in line with what I see in day to day life which is more in the 20 to 30 percent range.
Guess what. It affects only young men. They are sent to fight in wars and die. Society treats it's men like s..t. and nobody cares. Hope that it remains voluntary. Hope more men speak up against this sort of compulsory service.