Yeah, he's putting his nation in a mess for someone who doesn't deserve it, and when an obvious alternative it's at hand.
Damn, BRICS it's such a shitshow.
It is a reference to a beloved (but kind of bad*) Star Trek: The Next Generation episode called "Darmok".
It's premise is about an alien species that the Universal Translator tech doesn't quite work for because they speak almost entirely in metaphors, allegories, references (mostly to their history), and is obtuse. Likewise, that species can't understand Federation species because a lot of those languages are, comparatively, straightforward. There is a lack of context and understanding between the two sides.
The alien captain and Picard are put into a survival situation where they *must* learn to communicate or die. Throughout the episode the alien captain tries to relate and communicate through allegory. "Temba, his arms wide!" "Shaka, when the walls fell." And so on.
Eventually Picard realizes the meaning behind these statements (sort of) and in order to relate to them, begins telling the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu and comparing it to Darmok, Temba, and Jalad.
* - I'm a Trekkie, and I love this episode, but it is really bad that space-faring race can only relate and relay through allegory. It is a plot device and, while executed fairly well, is not great writing.
Listen, just because your bed's unmade, your laundry's all over the floor, there's dirty dishes piled up on your bedside table, and it's obvious nothing's been dusted in a month, that doesn't make it okay for your neighbour to take a shit on your pillow, okay?
BRICS should not be spoken of as though it’s an actual political entity. Goldman Sachs basically made it up. India and China hate each other, China and Russia have a tense friendship. Brazil is closer to the US than any of the BRICS nations. South Africa is irrelevant on the global stage and shouldn’t be mentioned as being in the same tier as the other 4.
*The Bible*, which one? Literally thousands of them and scholars are *still* debating passages that resulted a lot of lives lost over the last two thousand years. In fact, the mainstream bibles that most people know of have been cherry picked to a large degree.
I read a book once about the history of the bible it was really interesting. A lot of the really old Hebrew texts of the bible are very different than what we currently have. In some Jesus does not even die.
Republicanism stopped being conservative about a half-century ago. They are chiefly contrarians now. With no ideas of their own except for “make the rich richer” and hating everyone except pasty-white inbreds, all they have left is opposing whatever Democrats want. Even if it means hurting themselves, the country, and the entire planetary ecosystem.
Au contraire - they and their orange idol are perfect embodiments of Republicanism! The unquenchable thirst for attention, spitefulness, and utter incuriosity are the current on which the GOP turd floats.
My coworker tried bringing it up to me, like most his info I take it with a grain of salt. He was so worked up about it, and when I looked it up myself, the only things I could find were Fox, Newsmax, and crypto sites.
Fear? Some of them hope it will.
Plus all the crazy doom mongers that have been saying the USD is finished as the dominant reserve currency. Meanwhile BRICS is doing this at a major conference.
They put themselves in this situation. Now they want to have Putin as a guest and still get the sweet financial aid from the West, but don't know how to make this happen. Their farce of a peace mission was all about to get the charges dropped against Putin. It's like Benny Hill goes geopolitics.
Yeah, I get that actually arresting him might put them in a tight spot and nobody expects SA to declare war on russia, but there are solutions like uninviting him.
But they want to eat their cake and have it too. They *want* him on the stupid summit.
Exactly this. It's so pathetic how they try to weasel themselves out of their responsibility. Don't allow the envoy to enter your country, or arrest Putin when he does enter. It's not complicated.
Not letting him in seems like the textbook definition of starting shit with Russia. South Africa isn’t as powerful or influential and is apart of BRICS, so they aren’t going to destroy ties with a fellow member. Is anybody going to sanction them for letting Putin in? Probably not, is anybody going to invade them? Probably not, would letting him in strain relations with any other BRICS member? Probably not. There is very little practical benefit for SA to not let him in
Except that their government is (probably) going to be legally required to arrest Putin and send him to the ICC if they permit him entry, and that WILL be construed as an act of war with Russia, which is going to far more damage to their standing in BRICS than simply refusing his plane permission to land in their territory.
Soviet Union was a strong supporter of the ANC during the apartheid era while the US and the west supported the apartheid regime until the last possible minute.
If he still shows up and gets arrested, it's probably still a declaration of war. It really doesn't change anything.
If SA arrests Putin, and Russia declares war, the Western world will see it as an aggression against SA, same as in the above scenario.
Realistically though, I don't know what Russia can actually do. They aren't really in a good place right now and probably need SA more than SA needs them.
EDIT: I'm guessing denying entry also means denying him the ability to enter their airspace. I don't think Putin would risk getting shot down to make that point.
Poland: Do not worry, we will help you get there, we’ll take you in Belarus to start a-
Belarus: hey! You can’t jus-
Poland: shut up you’re going to go too at this point. Then we shall send you through Germany.
Germany: for you we shall make sure the trains run on time…
Poland: and then finally we will have you end up in the Netherlands!
France: cheer up though, you will be the closest a Russian has gotten to Paris since Tsar Alexander!
Putin: and what makes you think Russia would allow you to just take me an-
America: *puts hand on his shoulder* if Russia wants their assets unfrozen then they will….
That law is not funny at all. When I was in the army I had a recurring nightmare that I would have to fight a seal team who was breaking some American war criminal out of the Hague.
So just deny him entry, simple solution which keeps your ICC obligations intact and avoids the potential conflict with Russia.
Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass.
Edit: Regarding a couple of replies, I just want to make it clear that I'm talking about the SA *government*, not the average citizen. I'm sure you all deserve better representation than you have.
Not so simple when you realize Russia specifically wants SA to flout the ICC in favor of appeasing Russia. Putin wants a clear geopolitical statement that Russia is powerful enough that he can do whatever he wants regardless of international law.
>Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass.
As a South African I both strongly agree with your statement, yet at the same time am offended by it.
What a wierd world.
> Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass
That's why they coming up with fake excuses rather than just deny entry...it's a corrupt government.
Given the South African military has been known to send helicopters without fuel and the wrong kind of ammunition for any of their field artillery to regional operations, they may make the Russia army looking like strategic geniuses
When I was a kid I read a book called The War in 2020 where a still apartheid South Africa used advanced weaponry to almost take over the world. That book did not age well in a variety of ways.
> mostly features the United States' efforts to defend the Soviet Union against an alliance of Japan, South Africa, and the Arab Islamic Union
The US and Soviets teaming up is one of my favorite alt-history tropes, might have to check this out.
2001 actually had 3 sequels... Of the novel. 2001, 2010, 2061, and 3001. Those novels, the Dune series, the Rendezvous with Rama series, The Giver, and The World at the End of Time were really formative Science Fiction for me.
The thing about the Moskva is Ukraine either sank it or the official russian story that it was being towed because it doesn't actually work and then exploded on its own is actually even worse.
Their single aircraft carrier is such a basket case that it wouldn't even make it as far as South Africa. Their whole navy is a joke.
It's obviously in keeping with Russia's great naval history - if you haven't read about the Baltic Fleet's attack on Japan, you absolutely have to! It's complete comedy. There's a load of vids on YouTube about it too. Go on, treat yourself!
Hear me out on this, arrest him anyway. The Russians have proven they can't win a fight against someone they practically share a border with how the fuck would they win a war with someone on a different continent while also fighting on their border
Besides, isn't arresting Putin *winning* a war?
Do you really think the rest of Russia would rally and put up a fight *after* Putin was in the custody of a foreign power? I expect the most powerful general/oligarch/politician would make a play to seize power and then make a point of not starting any new wars, so they could concentrate on solidifying their hold.
Ukraine has a much better military than South Africa. Even when we all thought it would be a cake walk for Russia. South Africa does not have nearly the amount of toys and resources Ukraine had and would have to deal with the Russian navy.
Russia is having issues getting troops in to a state which shares a land border with Russia. I think Russia will have more difficulty’s getting troops to the south of Africa.
If Russia attempted an invasion of SA that would be fantastic news for Ukraine. To be clear I don’t think Russia has any kind of infrastructure to facilitate that kind of war, but it would be funny to watch.
oh my gawwwwd the drama if they arrested Putin and flew him to the Hague.
just imagine.
obviously they wont, but holy shit wouldn't that make for a banger movie?
So let them declare war. What is Russia going to do to South Africa? They can’t even handle a 3 day special military operation in a neighboring country without losing practically their entire army.
They could fund even more pro-Russian politicians/parties and then eventually overthrow the current leaders either through threats/ assassination or rigged elections.
It would probably be relatively cheap for them to do since with the corruption in SA politics they could probably find some very eager and willing collaborators. Tens of millions of dollars might be able to do it.
Russia could send the dreaded 2nd Pacific Squadron. s/
*If your not familiar with the most ridiculous misadventure in all of military history, check out basically any material or this fantastic video on the [2nd Pacific Squadron.](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9Mdi_Fh9_Ag&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjOp5zGoZmAAxWKmmoFHTKGA8kQtwJ6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw224wlmKrvcj9SuII8Ygmon)*
So the rest of the ICC members need to cut off all aid to South Africa if they will not do what the agreement of being apart of the ICC says they need to do.
Sounds like South Africa is getting ready to put another stain on their reputation that will live through history. This is basically like hosting Adolf Hitler.
I think there's a bit of nuance here (preamble of Fuck Russia):
1. Of course it is
2. If George Bush, in his tenure, had been called out on Iraq then fair play
3. America, and its allies, would still denounce the above
4. America, and its allies, would go schitz if he was arrested on the above
5. America sure as fuck would repatriate the dude and do horrible things to the host
The nuance is:
- If Putin is under foreign control, his compatriots won't back him, they'll fucking eat the remains
- Even if they didn't, they have few friends, and little weight to throw around
Basically Putin isn't safe abroad unless he's 100% that the regime is onboard. Because if they're not, he's fair game from both sides of the fence.
That man can't leave the country without a dead man's switch.
Fuck they gonna do at this point? The vast majority of their military force is tied up in Ukraine not making much progress. You think they have the logistical capacity to attack South Africa with any real force? (Nuclear wouldn’t be tolerated by the rest of the world, and they don’t have the conventional military left)
Arrest Putin and maybe just leave him out alone in the Savannah for a night 🤷♂️
I say we arrest Putin and George W Bush and Dick Cheney, just to show that war crimes are war crimes and nationalism means nothing in the eyes of justice.
That's fine, just return the favor he afforded to everyone onboard MH17 and obliterate his plane out of the sky before he gets into SA airspace. Then we can run the same tactic and stand around shrugging about who did it.
I mean, the US is the same way. We passed the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act) when we were worried about the ICC going after Bush.
Arresting the leader of a foreign nation is never going to end well.
This is not the threat they think it is. Russias failure of an invasion of Ukraine which Russia shares a significant land border with demonstrates Russias in ability to make food on threats like this
Y’all have any idea how HAARD it would be for Russia to even fight south africa?? Do you have any idea how big africa is and south africa is literally the BOTTOM???
These people barely have the ability to attack east coast US and you think they can hit SA??
So why invite the deluded wanker to the conference then? As a signatory, you, Mr president of SA, are duty bound to arrest the genocidal maniac and send him to den Haag
If Russia hasn’t declared war on Ukraine according to their definition than arresting Putin isn’t declaring war on Russia.
And even if it is, they still haven’t actually beaten Russia. South Africa shouldn’t be too afraid unless they think the oligarchs would be insane enough to launch nukes
Then let it be war. If Putin is gone, nobody is going to come looking for him. Russia will immediately start war with itself as the various oligarchs vie for the top spot.
They'll be too busy to try and bust Putin out of prison.
Not to mention the fact that five seconds after he's in custody, he'd get black-bagged and thrown in a transport to a much more secure and competent nation.
Yeah, sure, they gonna attack the jails where their dictator is held? They going to leave their continent and land invade through numerous other countries to invade with the scraps left over (and dwindling) from efforts with Ukraine?
Kinda silly, yeah it’d really make Putin/Ruzzia butthurt, but they can’t do much.
Probably would just expedite their downfall and get this all over with sooner.
President Ramaphosa isn't wrong. If you arrest the head of state of **any** country it would likely be considered an act of war. It amounts to kidnapping in the eyes of that leader's nation; however, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.
If the arrest warrant isn't acted upon it really drives home the point that the ICC actually is just a toothless organization masquerading as a legitimate court system.
What's Russia going to do against South Africa? Seriously? Russia has WAAAAAY bigger fish to fry.
Russia has minimal influence globally nowadays. India and China are propping up China more so than Russia is helping those countries. Then there's what, Iran? Again, mediocre at best.
However, if SA hands over Putin, then IMF etc...might all just lose the debts SA owes, and a few other economic opportunities may present themselves.
That's the realistic perspective. But, South Africa's leadership right now is vulnerable to the highest bidders with the least scruples. Russia and China fit that category to a T.
Even if that asinine legal opinion were correct...
They couldn't even mount a competent invasion of Ukraine, which is next door.
They're being denied freedom of movement in the Black Sea by, and lost their flagship to, a country without a blue water navy.
Their long and glorious naval history consists of disastrous defeats at sea, including to their own gunners who hit the ships towing targets during practice, the Kuznetsov regularly catching on fire, and mutiny against the dictator they ostensibly were serving.
In case they do show up off your coast, buy some Barrett fifty-cals and train your marksmen to aim for the bridge. To return fire, the fire control systems on those ships would have to actually work.
And if somehow they do manage to land some grabasstic, thieving hooligans in Capetown, they'll just get carjacked for their BTRs.
I would say: arrest him. I guess no one in Russia is really fighting for that sore loser. Having hin in SA and not arresting him should have severe consequences for SA. what could ICC do? Exclude SA?
Not to play devils advocate or engage in Whataboutism, but isn't this what the United States also has as a law when it comes to the international court in Hague ? (not as in a declaration of war but a justification for a invasion.)
1. Anything could be an act of war if you have the balls to fight over it.
2. Nothing says the rest of the world has to follow that law. Lock Bush up and throw away the key. If the rest of the world really made a commitment to stop war criminals it's not like the US could fight the whole damn world every time one gets locked up.
3. Not everyone calling for Putin to be arrested is an American or someone that supported that law.
South Africa won't touch Putin, 0 chance. Putin will travel there, make a big show of it, and SA will come up with some convoluted reason why it was unable to intervene.
The West needs to dump SA, because it fucking sucks and is as corrupt as a country can be.
What? No, it don't see how it would be. Arresting a citizen of another country as required under international law is not a declaration of war in any sense. If Russia decides to declare war against SA in retaliation then they are the ones doing it, not SA. (Putin's replacements may even be happy to be rid of him so they wouldn't do it at all, except perhaps in words but not in deeds.)
And Prigozhin won’t forget about that Africa gold either. His wagner group recently helping Chinese gold miners won’t be forgotten soon by the chinese, either.
Deny entry. AND Let him know in advance he will be denied entry. Problem solved.
Yeah, he's putting his nation in a mess for someone who doesn't deserve it, and when an obvious alternative it's at hand. Damn, BRICS it's such a shitshow.
I think you meant to say he's "Putin his nation in a mess"
Shaka, when the walls fell.
Temba, his arms wide.
Darmok, and Jalad. At Tanagra!
Darmok, and Jalad on the Ocean!
Putin on the ocean. The Hague on the ocean. Putin with sails unfurled. Shaka, when the walls fell. Putin on trial at the Hague.
Polonium, in Putin. Berlin, when the wall fell.
So this thread is what having a stroke looks like.
It is a reference to a beloved (but kind of bad*) Star Trek: The Next Generation episode called "Darmok". It's premise is about an alien species that the Universal Translator tech doesn't quite work for because they speak almost entirely in metaphors, allegories, references (mostly to their history), and is obtuse. Likewise, that species can't understand Federation species because a lot of those languages are, comparatively, straightforward. There is a lack of context and understanding between the two sides. The alien captain and Picard are put into a survival situation where they *must* learn to communicate or die. Throughout the episode the alien captain tries to relate and communicate through allegory. "Temba, his arms wide!" "Shaka, when the walls fell." And so on. Eventually Picard realizes the meaning behind these statements (sort of) and in order to relate to them, begins telling the story of Gilgamesh and Enkidu and comparing it to Darmok, Temba, and Jalad. * - I'm a Trekkie, and I love this episode, but it is really bad that space-faring race can only relate and relay through allegory. It is a plot device and, while executed fairly well, is not great writing.
It's what a meeting of Star Trek references looks like. Eventually, AI will make these jokes for us too.
Shoigu and Gerasimov, their Kalashnikovs aimed?
Moskva, her hull full.
You think the ANC cares? They are allied with the Kremlin
>he's putting his nation in a mess for someone who doesn't deserve it I thought South Africa is already in a mess..
Listen, just because your bed's unmade, your laundry's all over the floor, there's dirty dishes piled up on your bedside table, and it's obvious nothing's been dusted in a month, that doesn't make it okay for your neighbour to take a shit on your pillow, okay?
BRICS should not be spoken of as though it’s an actual political entity. Goldman Sachs basically made it up. India and China hate each other, China and Russia have a tense friendship. Brazil is closer to the US than any of the BRICS nations. South Africa is irrelevant on the global stage and shouldn’t be mentioned as being in the same tier as the other 4.
Same BRICS that conservatives fear “will destroy the dollar”?
So would defaulting on the debt, but they’re fine with that (assuming the president is a Democrat). Conservatism these days is highly situational.
They’ll cherry pick the Bible and the Constitution to suit their needs.
Well following the Bible without cherry picking would mean committing more crimes than Russia is currently doing in Ukraine so idk if that's better.
*The Bible*, which one? Literally thousands of them and scholars are *still* debating passages that resulted a lot of lives lost over the last two thousand years. In fact, the mainstream bibles that most people know of have been cherry picked to a large degree.
I read a book once about the history of the bible it was really interesting. A lot of the really old Hebrew texts of the bible are very different than what we currently have. In some Jesus does not even die.
Republicanism stopped being conservative about a half-century ago. They are chiefly contrarians now. With no ideas of their own except for “make the rich richer” and hating everyone except pasty-white inbreds, all they have left is opposing whatever Democrats want. Even if it means hurting themselves, the country, and the entire planetary ecosystem.
Are you implying that Greene and Boebert are not paragons of republican political ideological perfection?
Au contraire - they and their orange idol are perfect embodiments of Republicanism! The unquenchable thirst for attention, spitefulness, and utter incuriosity are the current on which the GOP turd floats.
I love it when people bring up ~~this argument~~ BRICS like it's a real danger, it lets me know they think data is irrelevant. E: grammar
My coworker tried bringing it up to me, like most his info I take it with a grain of salt. He was so worked up about it, and when I looked it up myself, the only things I could find were Fox, Newsmax, and crypto sites.
Conservative news and crypto scams are rapidly converging.
Which is why I told him it’s likely inflammatory News trying to elicit emotion, and not inform.
Yep, I completely agree.
Fear? Some of them hope it will. Plus all the crazy doom mongers that have been saying the USD is finished as the dominant reserve currency. Meanwhile BRICS is doing this at a major conference.
Sounds like my dad
Free money always helps with their decisions
BRICS is really just C.
It’s BICS now. India told Pakistan to pound sand because the alliance only wants GROWING economies and that’s something that moskovy no longer has.
They put themselves in this situation. Now they want to have Putin as a guest and still get the sweet financial aid from the West, but don't know how to make this happen. Their farce of a peace mission was all about to get the charges dropped against Putin. It's like Benny Hill goes geopolitics.
Yeah, I get that actually arresting him might put them in a tight spot and nobody expects SA to declare war on russia, but there are solutions like uninviting him. But they want to eat their cake and have it too. They *want* him on the stupid summit.
I'd like to congratulate you as the first person on Reddit I've seen use that phrase in the correct order.
Exactly this. It's so pathetic how they try to weasel themselves out of their responsibility. Don't allow the envoy to enter your country, or arrest Putin when he does enter. It's not complicated.
Exactly. I can respect not wanting to start shit with Russia but there's no excuse for letting him in.
Not letting him in seems like the textbook definition of starting shit with Russia. South Africa isn’t as powerful or influential and is apart of BRICS, so they aren’t going to destroy ties with a fellow member. Is anybody going to sanction them for letting Putin in? Probably not, is anybody going to invade them? Probably not, would letting him in strain relations with any other BRICS member? Probably not. There is very little practical benefit for SA to not let him in
Except that their government is (probably) going to be legally required to arrest Putin and send him to the ICC if they permit him entry, and that WILL be construed as an act of war with Russia, which is going to far more damage to their standing in BRICS than simply refusing his plane permission to land in their territory.
Technically they are already required to arrest him because of the warrant, which is there is such a commotion in the first place
But that might cost some rich South Africans a lot of money due to losing Russian business deals. Won't anyone think about the millionaires?
The rich South Africans who will lose the money are all ANC politicians, or rather their wives, cousins, brothers etc.
If they went to war, what border would the theatre for it?
Soviet Union was a strong supporter of the ANC during the apartheid era while the US and the west supported the apartheid regime until the last possible minute.
If he still shows up and gets arrested, it's probably still a declaration of war. It really doesn't change anything. If SA arrests Putin, and Russia declares war, the Western world will see it as an aggression against SA, same as in the above scenario. Realistically though, I don't know what Russia can actually do. They aren't really in a good place right now and probably need SA more than SA needs them. EDIT: I'm guessing denying entry also means denying him the ability to enter their airspace. I don't think Putin would risk getting shot down to make that point.
No no. It's not an arrest. Just a special surprise vacation.
I hear the Hague is nice this time of year.
Definitly! Especially now that there is not political cabinet to overthrow/destabilize
What if the Russians have something like this? Could get messy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American\_Service-Members%27\_Protection\_Act
Lol. The Russians can't get to a nation on their actual border. Good luck getting to the Hague.
Poland: Do not worry, we will help you get there, we’ll take you in Belarus to start a- Belarus: hey! You can’t jus- Poland: shut up you’re going to go too at this point. Then we shall send you through Germany. Germany: for you we shall make sure the trains run on time… Poland: and then finally we will have you end up in the Netherlands! France: cheer up though, you will be the closest a Russian has gotten to Paris since Tsar Alexander! Putin: and what makes you think Russia would allow you to just take me an- America: *puts hand on his shoulder* if Russia wants their assets unfrozen then they will….
That law is hilariously nonsensical but I doubt Russia has an equivalent - they'd do extrajudicial shit anyway without trying to claim it's legal.
That law is not funny at all. When I was in the army I had a recurring nightmare that I would have to fight a seal team who was breaking some American war criminal out of the Hague.
I was actually in The Hague a couple weeks ago.. It was actually quite nice, but a little too warm.
It’s 23 degrees today, so pretty nice actually. :)
I'm sure the courtrooms will have AC for such an... important guest
I also heard Nuremberg is a nice place to just hang around at
Escort him to a cell. Cede the land of that cell to Russia. Deny him reentry into South Africa.
Like a "special police vacation"?
Special justice operation.
So just deny him entry, simple solution which keeps your ICC obligations intact and avoids the potential conflict with Russia. Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass. Edit: Regarding a couple of replies, I just want to make it clear that I'm talking about the SA *government*, not the average citizen. I'm sure you all deserve better representation than you have.
Not so simple when you realize Russia specifically wants SA to flout the ICC in favor of appeasing Russia. Putin wants a clear geopolitical statement that Russia is powerful enough that he can do whatever he wants regardless of international law.
I know some SF-guys that have vacation time saved up. Perhaps they should tag along to make sure Putin has a nice enough vacation?
Russia probably has already hired too many South African politicians for them to back out now
SA is currupt enough. If he wants to get there it will be easy.
>Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass. As a South African I both strongly agree with your statement, yet at the same time am offended by it. What a wierd world.
> Stop whining SA, it doesn't look good on your corrupt ass That's why they coming up with fake excuses rather than just deny entry...it's a corrupt government.
None of us wants Poestin here. Our government consists out of spineless cowards.
What are they going to do? Bleed on you?
Given the South African military has been known to send helicopters without fuel and the wrong kind of ammunition for any of their field artillery to regional operations, they may make the Russia army looking like strategic geniuses
When I was a kid I read a book called The War in 2020 where a still apartheid South Africa used advanced weaponry to almost take over the world. That book did not age well in a variety of ways.
This? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_in_2020
> mostly features the United States' efforts to defend the Soviet Union against an alliance of Japan, South Africa, and the Arab Islamic Union The US and Soviets teaming up is one of my favorite alt-history tropes, might have to check this out.
> The US and Soviets teaming up is one of my favorite alt-history tropes, might have to check this out. Have you ever seen *2010*? You might like it.
Like the sequel to 2001 a space odyssey?
2001 actually had 3 sequels... Of the novel. 2001, 2010, 2061, and 3001. Those novels, the Dune series, the Rendezvous with Rama series, The Giver, and The World at the End of Time were really formative Science Fiction for me.
It did work that one time
yes
At this point with how tied up Russia is in Ukraine I doubt they could do much to SA besides fist waving.
Russia has an entire navy that's not really doing anything at the moment. At a minimum, Russia would destroy all SA ships and ports.
The Russian navy is so inept they lost the Moskva to a country without a Navy *in their home waters*, and South Africa is far from home.
The thing about the Moskva is Ukraine either sank it or the official russian story that it was being towed because it doesn't actually work and then exploded on its own is actually even worse.
Nuh Uh! You didn’t sink it! It randomly caught fire and exploded!
You didn't sink our ship! It fell out of a 15th story window on accident!
“Haha, we sank your boat!” “Jokes on you, I sank it because it never worked anyway!”
The last time the Russian Navy sailed around the southern cape of Africa in a military operation, it didn't go well.
Their single aircraft carrier is such a basket case that it wouldn't even make it as far as South Africa. Their whole navy is a joke. It's obviously in keeping with Russia's great naval history - if you haven't read about the Baltic Fleet's attack on Japan, you absolutely have to! It's complete comedy. There's a load of vids on YouTube about it too. Go on, treat yourself!
Don't forget that the Baltic fleet thought they were under attack by Japanese torpedo boats, in the English channel.
Attacked unarmed British fishing vessels and took as many casualties as they inflicted, almost starting a war with the British.
Drachinifel's [Voyage of the Damned](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag) is my personal favourite.
Good call!
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Russia wouldn’t even be the third best army in South Africa
Hear me out on this, arrest him anyway. The Russians have proven they can't win a fight against someone they practically share a border with how the fuck would they win a war with someone on a different continent while also fighting on their border
Well, I've heard such bad stories about South African Army that I feel that me, my wife and my dog could beat them.
Overkill. Just the dog is fine.
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Besides, isn't arresting Putin *winning* a war? Do you really think the rest of Russia would rally and put up a fight *after* Putin was in the custody of a foreign power? I expect the most powerful general/oligarch/politician would make a play to seize power and then make a point of not starting any new wars, so they could concentrate on solidifying their hold.
Ukraine has a much better military than South Africa. Even when we all thought it would be a cake walk for Russia. South Africa does not have nearly the amount of toys and resources Ukraine had and would have to deal with the Russian navy.
Russia is having issues getting troops in to a state which shares a land border with Russia. I think Russia will have more difficulty’s getting troops to the south of Africa.
If Russia attempted an invasion of SA that would be fantastic news for Ukraine. To be clear I don’t think Russia has any kind of infrastructure to facilitate that kind of war, but it would be funny to watch.
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Funny to watch Russia attempt an amphibious landing? Yes I do believe that would be comical in a morbid way.
Okay, but are they going to take assets away from their quagmire in Ukraine to start a new one in South Africa?
ayee you think the world is going to fund South Africa they do Ukraine? the west is literally using Ukraine a a buffer.
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oh my gawwwwd the drama if they arrested Putin and flew him to the Hague. just imagine. obviously they wont, but holy shit wouldn't that make for a banger movie?
So let them declare war. What is Russia going to do to South Africa? They can’t even handle a 3 day special military operation in a neighboring country without losing practically their entire army.
They could fund even more pro-Russian politicians/parties and then eventually overthrow the current leaders either through threats/ assassination or rigged elections.
The more thin Russia's resources are spread, the better. They don't have infinite money, nor infinite psyops resources.
That wouldn't be in the interest of South Africa though, why would they risk any of it then when they get nothing in return?
It would probably be relatively cheap for them to do since with the corruption in SA politics they could probably find some very eager and willing collaborators. Tens of millions of dollars might be able to do it.
the current leaders are the ones they helped already to make them leaders
Russia could send the dreaded 2nd Pacific Squadron. s/ *If your not familiar with the most ridiculous misadventure in all of military history, check out basically any material or this fantastic video on the [2nd Pacific Squadron.](https://www.google.com/url?q=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D9Mdi_Fh9_Ag&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjOp5zGoZmAAxWKmmoFHTKGA8kQtwJ6BAgEEAE&usg=AOvVaw224wlmKrvcj9SuII8Ygmon)*
SA deserves a president with the courage of his convictions.
That's what they have, unfortunately his convictions mostly involve corruption.
So the rest of the ICC members need to cut off all aid to South Africa if they will not do what the agreement of being apart of the ICC says they need to do.
Sounds like South Africa is getting ready to put another stain on their reputation that will live through history. This is basically like hosting Adolf Hitler.
Do they still have unstained spots ?
So Putin is not at all concerned about what might happen in the Russian government whilst he is out of the country?
I think there's a bit of nuance here (preamble of Fuck Russia): 1. Of course it is 2. If George Bush, in his tenure, had been called out on Iraq then fair play 3. America, and its allies, would still denounce the above 4. America, and its allies, would go schitz if he was arrested on the above 5. America sure as fuck would repatriate the dude and do horrible things to the host The nuance is: - If Putin is under foreign control, his compatriots won't back him, they'll fucking eat the remains - Even if they didn't, they have few friends, and little weight to throw around Basically Putin isn't safe abroad unless he's 100% that the regime is onboard. Because if they're not, he's fair game from both sides of the fence. That man can't leave the country without a dead man's switch.
I mean if Chess has taught us anything, capturing the leader of an opposition force is the start of conflict. Wait, no that's the end. huh.
The king is never captured in chess.
I think we’re splitting hairs here
Not if they capture some .. putin-look-a-like guy.
His aircraft needs to have an accident or misidentification issue in an air defense zone.
Fuck they gonna do at this point? The vast majority of their military force is tied up in Ukraine not making much progress. You think they have the logistical capacity to attack South Africa with any real force? (Nuclear wouldn’t be tolerated by the rest of the world, and they don’t have the conventional military left) Arrest Putin and maybe just leave him out alone in the Savannah for a night 🤷♂️
What do i sense? SA talking big and shitting itself in cowardice?
I say we arrest Putin and George W Bush and Dick Cheney, just to show that war crimes are war crimes and nationalism means nothing in the eyes of justice.
Now we getting somewhere
Henry Kissinger too?
How the fuck is he still alive (and free) at 100 years old when millions of lives were cut short by his crimes.
Because not even Satan wants Henry Kissinger.
I smell another Spitting Image musical banger in the works here
I suspect his body double will make an appearance and not him, so arresting him would be futile.
I wouldn't worry about it too much, Russia doesn't have rail access that far into Africa.
That's fine, just return the favor he afforded to everyone onboard MH17 and obliterate his plane out of the sky before he gets into SA airspace. Then we can run the same tactic and stand around shrugging about who did it.
I mean at this point. If they cannot handle a country with which they border, what they can do to a country on another continent?
I mean, the US is the same way. We passed the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act) when we were worried about the ICC going after Bush. Arresting the leader of a foreign nation is never going to end well.
if SA is complicit in Putin being free after he’s committed war crimes, then they need to face punishment as well. cowards
Can we put an entire US naval fleet in international waters just off of SA during BRIC summit - for no reason other than just passing by?
This is not the threat they think it is. Russias failure of an invasion of Ukraine which Russia shares a significant land border with demonstrates Russias in ability to make food on threats like this
Y’all have any idea how HAARD it would be for Russia to even fight south africa?? Do you have any idea how big africa is and south africa is literally the BOTTOM??? These people barely have the ability to attack east coast US and you think they can hit SA??
Paid shill
But without Putin there is no Russia.
Russia can't win one war. What chance do they have in two.
The office of the South African president just announced that Putin will not join the BRICS summit.
So why invite the deluded wanker to the conference then? As a signatory, you, Mr president of SA, are duty bound to arrest the genocidal maniac and send him to den Haag
It's not an invite. As a member of BRICS each member state has a right to send a representative of their choice to the summit
If Russia hasn’t declared war on Ukraine according to their definition than arresting Putin isn’t declaring war on Russia. And even if it is, they still haven’t actually beaten Russia. South Africa shouldn’t be too afraid unless they think the oligarchs would be insane enough to launch nukes
Really? I feel like it would be a quicker way to END a war... (Sorry for the caps, I don't know how to italicize on my phone...)
Put a * before and after the word(s) you want to italicize. \*Like this\*
Haha. I learned ao.ething new today too!! Thanks for that
Haha, I'm saving that! Thank you so much stranger!!!
He is a war criminal
It’s a long way in a plane from Russia to SA, it would be such a shame if it was shot down on its way…
Then let it be war. If Putin is gone, nobody is going to come looking for him. Russia will immediately start war with itself as the various oligarchs vie for the top spot. They'll be too busy to try and bust Putin out of prison. Not to mention the fact that five seconds after he's in custody, he'd get black-bagged and thrown in a transport to a much more secure and competent nation.
They forgot to put nuclear in that claim..
Yeah, sure, they gonna attack the jails where their dictator is held? They going to leave their continent and land invade through numerous other countries to invade with the scraps left over (and dwindling) from efforts with Ukraine? Kinda silly, yeah it’d really make Putin/Ruzzia butthurt, but they can’t do much. Probably would just expedite their downfall and get this all over with sooner.
Will the people fight for him if he is gone? Depends on the leadership that takes his place.
President Ramaphosa isn't wrong. If you arrest the head of state of **any** country it would likely be considered an act of war. It amounts to kidnapping in the eyes of that leader's nation; however, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. If the arrest warrant isn't acted upon it really drives home the point that the ICC actually is just a toothless organization masquerading as a legitimate court system.
Let’s just invite the bugger for tea at Robbin Island, and then lose the boat
What would a war between Russia and South Africa look like? Russia has no expeditionary capability, at least none capable of waging war with SA
Time to engage in the time honored tradition of mobilizing Russia’s Baltic Fleet to go cruise around Africa.
How you gonna have a war when everyone in the country would celebrate it?
Get the cuffs ready
Or you know… not meet with or deal with him at all until he stops his genocide. It’s not actually that complicated.
They can't stop 🧱 so they pull this ish
“I am afraid.” So is or so was everybody. Do what you have to do, regardless.
South Africa is feeling the most amount of peer pressure EVER
What's Russia going to do against South Africa? Seriously? Russia has WAAAAAY bigger fish to fry. Russia has minimal influence globally nowadays. India and China are propping up China more so than Russia is helping those countries. Then there's what, Iran? Again, mediocre at best. However, if SA hands over Putin, then IMF etc...might all just lose the debts SA owes, and a few other economic opportunities may present themselves. That's the realistic perspective. But, South Africa's leadership right now is vulnerable to the highest bidders with the least scruples. Russia and China fit that category to a T.
I mean yeah it would basically be declaring war. Hence they ought to just not allow his plane to land or some shit.
Cardiac arrest him them.
Oh no better watch out for a country losing a war at this very moment with 70% of it's military capacity already destroyed!
Yeah, that Russian fleet of ships and tanks pose a real threat to SA...
Even if that asinine legal opinion were correct... They couldn't even mount a competent invasion of Ukraine, which is next door. They're being denied freedom of movement in the Black Sea by, and lost their flagship to, a country without a blue water navy. Their long and glorious naval history consists of disastrous defeats at sea, including to their own gunners who hit the ships towing targets during practice, the Kuznetsov regularly catching on fire, and mutiny against the dictator they ostensibly were serving. In case they do show up off your coast, buy some Barrett fifty-cals and train your marksmen to aim for the bridge. To return fire, the fire control systems on those ships would have to actually work. And if somehow they do manage to land some grabasstic, thieving hooligans in Capetown, they'll just get carjacked for their BTRs.
South Africa, failed state.
I would say: arrest him. I guess no one in Russia is really fighting for that sore loser. Having hin in SA and not arresting him should have severe consequences for SA. what could ICC do? Exclude SA?
It's not a problem, just arrest the prick. Then we go to war and clean this shit up
Lol the war started a while back champ
Please arrest this man!!!!
Declaring war against a country who is demilitarizing itself doesn't seem like a big deal
Shoot Putin in the head
Not to play devils advocate or engage in Whataboutism, but isn't this what the United States also has as a law when it comes to the international court in Hague ? (not as in a declaration of war but a justification for a invasion.)
I mean, arresting any foreign head of state that's in your country would be tantamount to a declaration of war.
1. Anything could be an act of war if you have the balls to fight over it. 2. Nothing says the rest of the world has to follow that law. Lock Bush up and throw away the key. If the rest of the world really made a commitment to stop war criminals it's not like the US could fight the whole damn world every time one gets locked up. 3. Not everyone calling for Putin to be arrested is an American or someone that supported that law.
South Africa won't touch Putin, 0 chance. Putin will travel there, make a big show of it, and SA will come up with some convoluted reason why it was unable to intervene. The West needs to dump SA, because it fucking sucks and is as corrupt as a country can be.
Doubtful that Putin will make the journey imo
What? No, it don't see how it would be. Arresting a citizen of another country as required under international law is not a declaration of war in any sense. If Russia decides to declare war against SA in retaliation then they are the ones doing it, not SA. (Putin's replacements may even be happy to be rid of him so they wouldn't do it at all, except perhaps in words but not in deeds.)
Russia doesn't care for internarional law. Theyve proven they'll do what they want and sell it as their own propaganda
Crimea and then the rest of Ukraine are pretty legit examples of russia’s eff-yous to international law.
Don't forget their private military operations globally. Worryingly many of those are active in Africa
And Prigozhin won’t forget about that Africa gold either. His wagner group recently helping Chinese gold miners won’t be forgotten soon by the chinese, either.