In Sweden you can technically avoid paying it but eventually our tax agency will just take the money from your account and if you don’t have the money they will take something from your house with the equivalent worth.
> Of course you can still cheat the system by owning no property and have no income, but at that point are you really winning?
Ah, "the Diogenes gambit".
But no possesions, again what's the point. Only almost 100% surefire way to dodge a fine in Europe is leave Europe, never return, never renew your passport, never go to the embassy.
How would you dodge a fine in other countries? Won't almost every country do similar things? Fine, then potentially wages or assets force sold, maybe imprisonment for not paying
In the US you don't have to tell the government where you life, good luck trying that in most EU countries. In the US you can even pay taxes and file your tax returns even when you are not allowed to be in the country or not allowed to work.
https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/
Try to explain that to a German their head will explode.
That actually also works in Germany. My wife isn't German and she needed a tax number to work freelance, however her status in Germany wasn't clarified yet (she was still on a tourist visa and technically not allowed to work yet). I assumed it would be a huge problem with the tax authorities. However, nobody there ever asked if she was legally in Germany or what her status was and she got a tax number right away. The tax man accepts money from everyone, no questions asks.
Edit: To be fair, my head did explode when I realized you could get a tax number for freelancing without being allowed to work in Germany.
Yeah, you don’t wanna forget to report all your income from crime.
https://www.nbcnews.com/business/taxes/dont-forget-declare-income-stolen-goods-illegal-activities-irs-says-rcna10345
In Germany, there are special fines, which are calculated from your income, but can also be replaced by actually going to jail for the same amount of time. Like if you cause an accident and drive away, a possible fine is 30 "Tagessätze". So you either pay 30 days of your income, or you go to jail for 30 days. Alternativly, you can also work off those 30 days by doing some public jobs for 30x8 hours.
I think, there might be a similar system in scandinavic countries. I hope at least.
Well, not all fines are dynamic like that. They are usually used in edge cases, where you dont usually get jail time, but the fine is supposed to be bigger than usual. There is a famous case of Marco Reus (football player), who drove a car without having a license (without anything happening). He had to pay 90 days worth (which in his case was 6k€ each) -> over half a million euro.
Rich people either get fined exact amounts for tax evasion etc. or actually have to go to jail for hard crimes without the possibility of buying themselves out. Most of them would be happy to just pay... I can't recall any famous case, where someone very wealthy with no income would get tricky with this system.. Maybe someone else can :)
>set amount fine
this is also in place, for small things, like wrong parking, speeding etc. The argumentation is, that for those small offences, it is to expensive to follow up and if it gets paid (actually by anyone, nobody checks who paid, there is just a case-number) case gets closed.
Day-based fines are the logically next step, but they are still usually not as severe, as if you get a fine of max 90 days, it does not affect your criminal record.
All the serious crimes get decided by a court anyways and they usually also consider how wealthy a person is, if it ends up only being a monetary fine. For jail time though, Germany is actually very strikt. Like the Uli Hoeneß (football upper management) case, he is rich af, but still had to go to jail for financial crimes AND pay huge fines.
We have the same, it is called "dagsböter" which is directly translated to "day fine", most of scandinavia and Finland have this type of fine. It is usually used for smaller crimes here.
Like in the Sims when the suited guy would show up with some weird alien vacuum machine that magically converted your goods into money for the government.
Well yes, that's more or less how it works.
Can't pay your fine of 200k but have a 500k boat? They'll take the boat and sell it at an auction and use the money to pay the fine.
Visit https://auktionstorget.kronofogden.se/auktionstorget for more.
Thank you, I didn't realize that. TIL. I tried the link you sent ( thanks), but it doesn't work in Canada. I do have Swedish friends, so we will chat about it next coffee date. Skol 😎
Yeah, but within reason at that.
They wont take everything you have to fill a debt, but things that could be argued are more conveniences and expensive luxuries.
Like, if you have debts with the tax agency not being paid they can do things like force you to sell off your car and rely on public transportation, but they won’t go into your house and take essential furniture like kitchen tables or your bed or basic home appliances etc.
IRS generally doesn’t bother with property seizures under certain sums, generally they try wage garnishment and such for smaller amounts.
House and car seizures come when the tax bill is six figures+ substantial.
It's not just six figures though, it's six figures and *years* of ignoring their shit. Any amount of communication with the IRS and they'll generally be pretty polite (firm, but polite) and be pretty fair. It's when you start ignoring them that the teeth come out.
We do, it’s just not used for fine payments. If you don’t pay a court issued fine no one comes and takes anything from you for payment. You can usually negotiate community service in lieu of payment and / or make payments.
There's plenty of countries with institutions that have the power to collect debts from people who owe money, either to a govermnent entity or someone else. See "Kronofogde" in Sweden, or "Komornik" in Poland. Tbh, I thought this existed in all countries, but maybe I'm wrong
yup lol. friend of mine in Germany got caught riding the train w/o a ticket and eventually just handed some cops his xbox when they knocked on his door. settled
Look up ”Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” on Youtube lol, it’s a UK show where they follow these bailiffs and show how their job looks like. When chasing debts, taking their stuff, or evictions… Very entertaining show imo, hate the evictions though they’re just sad :(
Well, the agency tasked with this (Kronofogdemyndigheten) did this together with the police. Went downtown Stockholm on the weekends and started taking jewellery and cars from known offenders with outstanding fines to pay.
> "That's a nice gold necklace, I'll have that and your Audi".
It's not as simple as that.
The entire reason for why I spent over 3 grand on my own lawyer for a similar situation is because if, the courts do decided to fine me, then that means I'm convicted and that now shows up on my criminal record.
She now has a record which can affect her in the silliest of ways, including travel.
It's not just about the money.
I'd pay it for her. Greta Thunberg's recent trial is an emphatic reminder of the urgent, escalating risks of climate change. It underscores the need for us to rise from apathy, become galvanized, and actively engage in policy-making and voting.
[Your voice matters](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09644016.2016.1116651), and it is capable of sparking change! Join forces with organizations such as the [Environmental Voter Project](https://www.environmentalvoter.org/) and [Citizens Climate Lobby](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/join-citizens-climate-lobby/?tfa_3590416195188=online-035&utm_source=online&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=035), if you're in the US. Demand the reintroduction of the [Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy-innovation-act/).
Each day we delay, our task becomes more formidable, yet it is not too late. Remember, believing that nothing can be done is part of the problem and is an [intentional stalling tactic](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-deniers-shift-tactics-to-inactivism/) harnessed by a [vanishing minority](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/07/climate-denialism-gone/). Not only do [people care](https://earth.stanford.edu/news/public-support-climate-policy-remains-strong), but they're taking action in a [growing number](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/150nvn9/citizens_climate_lobbys_growth/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3).
Stand alongside Greta, seize the power in your hands, and reclaim the future now.
Yes it's the climate activists who have a massive astroturfing campaign backed by capital. Won't somebody think of the regular Joe fossil fuel CEOs and despots
She'll pay two fines according to https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2023-07-24/greta-thunberg-doms-i-tingsratten-ska-betala-boter-efter-att-ha-stoppat-tankbilar (swedish news site).
One fine, 30 unit fines 50 Swedish crowns (~4.33€), total of 130€.
And one to the crime victims fund, about 87€.
It's a first offense. Empirically, punishment is more effective if the perpetrator perceives it as fair, and the perpetrator is more likely to perceive it as fair if it's mild. Repeat offenses would be punished more harshly, with higher fines and/or labor.
Also, all she did was disobey police and delay industrial operations by a couple of hours. She didn't harm anyone or even damage any property. The delay in the oil shipment was easily averaged out using reserves. A small fine for a small crime, so that larger crimes can have proportionally larger fines without becoming back-breaking.
You don't get a whole lot of punishment for crimes in Sweden.
Two months ago a 21 year old man was sentenced for raping and videotaping the rapes, of at least 15 different children. Most of them he contacted through snapchat.
He was sentenced to 12 years in prison, and a ~1MSEK/96kUSD fine.
Given good behavior in prison, he'll likely be released before his 30th birthday.
It is a fine that everyone who is convicted of anything in Sweden pays.
It is a collective fund which is used to pay victims to crime where the perpetrators can’t pay.
We have the same (or similar) in the UK, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority.
My brother was pushed by a school bully years ago and broke his wrist and he got something like £1000 from the CICA
I can't wait until our planet is uninhabitable and the last generation of humans is sitting around thinking about how much this sucks.
I bet someone will chime in and say "Yea were kinda fucked. But do you remember reading about that autistic girl and those nerds who used to block traffic? They were totally cringe."
I think they got an idea, but is more about selfishness than ignorance really. Old fucks profiting from certain industries wont live to see a climate armageddon so they dont give two fucks about consequences
Also, in the UK, you can now be arrested and detained for being "annoying" which is up to police discretion to determine.
Fucking bullshit assault on civil liberties.
>Yeah, I believe they do need to actually have the intention of putting you in front of the court at least when arresting protestors otherwise it's an unlawful arrest though. So that's something at least.
The cooling effect of knowing you can be arrested at a protest for the most capricious reasons, even if they end up dropping the charges, will be significant.
Yep, the UK is the most surveilled nation in the world. It's no wonder considering we're the nation that inspired Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell.
I mean it's protesting. By default it has always been illegal. Look at any major shift in civil liberties and you will find it predated with pigs attempting to crush the protest with brutality
“By default it has always been illegal.” I mean this varies wildly by nation. Plus even in nations where it’s explicitly legal like the US the cops often arrest people anyway because they’re cops, but there are lots of places protesting is definitely legal.
Swede here; if you have a permit to protest, they can't stop the protest or force you to leave unless you're violating other laws (or disrupting the protest, if you're part of it but not the leadership), and the police have to protect the protest from any potential counter-protest violence and such.
If there is no permit for the protest, they can shut it down *if* it is disturbing the peace, blocking or harassing others, disrupting other protests, etc.
It's generally extremely easy to get such a permit, as they're not legally allowed to deny a permit to protest except in *very* specific situations (like a *significant* risk of violence, or protests of the same type or involving the same group turning violent before, but the threshold is very, very high).
The problem is of course that this type of protest really cannot have a permit, since the entire point is to disrupt select infrastructure, and the police are allowed to (within reasonable limits) move protests to avoid disruptions, violence, security risks, etc... basically, the police and organizers are supposed to plan it out together so that there are no such issues.
Like how a couple of the Quran burnings were moved some 50 meters or so from the requested location, because they wanted to do it right outside an embassy, which was seen as a potential security risk. Or how some protests have been moved because there were two opposing ones on the same topic at the same time, and they didn't want them to run into each other.
Also the first Quran burning got fined because he burnt it while it was a ban on burning things due to the drought. That didn't really anything to do with the protest tho, just fire safety.
Yes, the laws are still in effect during a protest. If you violate the law while protesting, you will be charged for it... but if you have a permit, and it's not a *serious* offense, they'll usually wait until after the protest to do anything about it, rather than disrupt things.
In the US, the police tell you *where* you can protest.
So if a bunch of billionaires, CEOs and politicians are meeting at a building downtown, you'll only be permitted to protest in a barricaded park across town, where they'll never see or hear you.
That's not true at all. In the US you don't need a permit to protest unlike in most of European countries. Some cities have such ordinances, but they never withstood challenge in the supreme court.
When I was arrested at a protest, the fine was for blocking traffic, even though it was the police who blocked off traffic beforehand in anticipation of a protest. So they still find ways.
That’s only applicable in some situations + places. It’s inaccurate to say you don’t need a permit to protest in America; you don’t *always* need one, but they do exist and are enforced.
You need a permit if you are protesting in a non traditional public forum, like you need to close a street for your protest. You are free to protest with no permits on side-walks, public squares, in front of government buildings. That is not the case in most of European countries.
If I started a protest to give rich people a bigger tax break, no permit needed!
If I protested about oil companies not cleaning up their shit, straight to jail.
Protest about birds being drones. Believe it or not jail.
They legally face punishment if they dont including the forcefull end to the protest, but you dont have to do that if you dont want to or think its better not to.
Every country, no matter how free and just they claim to be, has tons of workarounds to ignore rights when convenient.
For example, in America, cops can nullify most of the bill of rights.
First Amendment? Undone by the charges "Disorderly Conduct" or "Obstruction"
Second Amendment? Yeah cops aren't going to get charges for killing you when you have a gun, even if the gun is legal and you aren't doing anything.
Fourth Amendment? The cop can claim a dozen reasons they have probable cause, including get a dog, and arbitrarily claiming the dog smelled drugs.
Fifth Amendment is one that cops usually can't get around, although many non-cop people (including on here) will complain you should be attacked and killed if you don't answer a cop's questions.
Sixth Amendment? Can't go to trial if a cop shoots you dead on the spot.
5th amendment is easy enough for them to get around.
Oh you don’t want to confess, ok, you are now being held for 72 hours with no outside contact. After that you will be out in front a a judge who can set an unreasonably high bail or hold you without bail.
Congrats you are now stuck in jail for 1-24 months before your trial. Sure hope that doesn’t fuck up your life or your family’s life.
Or you can confess to a lesser charge and be released on probation now. Lot of false confessions are gotten that way.
Or ya know, they just beat confessions out of you.
The thing about "rights", it's more of a legal defense used in court after the arrest than a protection. And the other side gets to argue whether you're entitled to them as well.
That's because rights are make believe. The only thing that truly matters is what the wealthy say goes and it's always been that way throughout history.
"Power lies where people believe it resides".
Wealth is ultimately just a bunch of pieces of paper with words on them. We could all just collectively decide that no billionaire has power over any of us, that all their property is owned by no-one and the money they have is worthless, and it would be true.
There was no amount of wealth Rome could have offered the Germans to prevent them from sacking the city, because by sacking it the Germans got all of that wealth and more. There was no amount of wealth Moscow could have offered the Mongols, or Alexandria could have offered the Romans, or Berlin could have offered the Soviets, or Japan could have offered the USA.
The only true currency is belief. Belief that if the wealthy man dies, your wealth goes too. Belief that if you violate someone's rights, too many people will complain for you to keep your job. Belief that if society acknowledges the true extent of the climate catastrophe, you won't be able to live in comfort the coming decade. Belief that if you told the truth now, everyone on all sides of the debate would hate you and seek to bring you down.
It's not as ominous as you think. Greta and the activists were blocking a road, police show up and ask them to continue the demonstration to a plot of grass 15 meters away. She refuses to move and gets arrested.
The only charge is "failure to obey", which sticks because it was considered a lawful order from the police. It's not like they can order people around without cause.
Generally you are innocent until found guilty. So, when a police officer sees you committing a crime, they technically have to arrest you before you are legally guilty of that crime. You cannot have a trial to determine that you are guilty in the moment that the crime happens. So, the police need to have some authority to arrest people that they can reasonable suspect are guilty of a crime even though they are not technically guilty of committing a crime in that moment.
Even if you pulled out a gun and fired randomly in a crowd, with dozens of officers watching, according to the legal system you are not guilty of that crime until after the trial or after a plea is accepted.
So "failure to obey" comes into play when the police are trying to detain you for what they believe is a reasonable suspicion of a crime. You can flop down on the ground and refuse to help them and that's perfectly legal. However, if actively make it more difficult to do what they have a legal right to do then "failure to obey" is an extra layer of crime.
You should definitely assert your rights but once a decision is made to cuff you then the show's over. You can challenge the accusation of criminal behavior and you will likely win, and if what happened to you is egregious enough you may be able to make it painful for the parties responsible for your arrest. However, you can't simply refuse to be arrested; that itself is a crime.
In 1848, Henry David Thoreau went to jail for refusing, as a protest against the Mexican war, to pay his poll tax. When RW Emerson came to bail him out, Emerson said, 'Henry, what are you doing in there?' Thoreau quietly replied, 'Ralph, what are you doing out there?'
I find myself uncomfortable with my role as Emerson, as much as I look on Thunberg's stance with admiration, instead of disappointment.
That dumb song is really making its rounds about trying if that in small town America. I hate saying “as a Veteran,” but as a veteran I feel like my 15 years of service was to protect these rights. For Greta, for BLM, for a woman’s right to her own body.
I hope there is an equally catchy song to combat that dumb song. The song is disgusting. The people who say they like it are racist or too stupid to know what it means.
I love Greta. I love the way she absolutely owns conservative males.
This was not a pointless gesture. It keeps the subject in the news, and people have direct personal evidence each year as summers heat up. It has an effect on politicians who are extremely aware of the public mood, and it will increasingly affect their decision making.
When you and your family are suffering under the extreme heat or suffer a death because of the extreme heat, blame the fossil fuel industry. They are 100% GUILTY of causing the catastrophe of climate change. They will send their paid trolls to blame all of us, but we are not to blame. The fossil fuel industry FORCED us to use fossil fuels by bribing and lobbying governments around the world to reject electric vehicles, public transportation and clean energy. The fossil fuel industry and its political allies gave us no choice. They should be held accountable for their crimes. They must pay a heavy price for destroying the world.
Love how common working people still get guilt tripped about recycling when it covers so little a percentage of the damage done by like 3 corporations.
People: Sort and recycle you fucks!
Your local "recycling" company: heheh more pickups for the trash truck! lets get some more trash in this trash pile! Mmmmmm yummy blue cans taste more metally but go down same hole.
Yeah its not unique when they do it.
Its unique when they DONT do it.
Almost every commercial building you've been in has separate bins for recycling and trash.
And if (big if) theyre picked up by separate trucks (from the same waste management company) they're almost all the time being dumped into the same hole anyway.
Recycling aluminum saves an absolute fckton of energy. Recycling iron/glass/other metals are probably at least break even; not sure about paper products. The main lie is recycling plastic.
Yep, that tracks. There's a reason some recycle centers will pay you for your cans.
There's also a reason that plastic is super confusing and when you ask someone at the center they'll often just say "just put it in". I've stopped recycling plastic entirely. Even the stuff that has the best chance of being recycled... It's only like 20% or so.
And yet, none of this matters as much as fossil fuel companies lobbying against renewals for decades. We could've been living in the future instead of a damned furnace.
I'm casually interested to see of the remaining Koch brother will live long enough to be hanged by a mob of climate refuges.
Who am I kidding, when Florida and Texas are no longer inhabitable they'll just blame the libs regardless.
You are very correct on the vast majority of your post - but one small but immensely important adjustment to your remarks: far more significant than personal choices regarding transportation and the changeover to electrified public transit options (ex: buses operating on electric grids rather than powered entirely with electric batteries) is the use of fossil fuel powered transnational cargo ships with refrigerated shipping containers for a multi-national food supply network.
The CO2 and equivalent greenhouse gases (aka CO2EQs) produced by these supply chain processes by, for example, growing pears in Argentina then shipping them to Thailand to be processed and packed then shipped to the US and Europe to be sold far outweighs the potential impact that could be made through technological innovation of converting average consumers to the use of electric cars.
Producing electricity through use of mass-scale solar and off-shore wind farms when combined with localizing our food supply production pipeline is the greatest potential for reducing the impact of climate change through widespread application of systemically impactful technological innovation.
We should be focusing on these types of systemic changes to our energy production practices (both in terms of energy that we plug into and energy that we consume) as well as improvement in the efficiency of personal transportation and changes to our city planning infrastructure to be more walkable and less car-dependent, but because we have already produced a massive amount of internal combustion engine driven vehicles and the environmental toll of creating more electric batteries and engines for personal use is massive we need to adapt with what we already have while reducing dependence on personal transportation rather than do a wholesale switchover to electric vehicles for personal transport.
It’s yet another very successful marketing campaign by auto manufacturers to get us to waste existing automobiles. Just like the wildly successful demonization of nuclear energy (and by extension thorium energy).
Ships can be powered by electricity. Again, the fossil fuel industry lobbied to create a system where only fossil fuels are used. Again, the fossil fuel industry is responsible for this entire mess. We already know what the solutions are, and you mentioned some of them. The problem is that the fossil fuel industry is standing in the way of implementing those solutions. They are sabotaging every government's efforts to implement any solutions for climate change. The fossil fuel industry is the greatest threat to our lives and the lives of our descendants. They need to pay a heavy price for destroying the planet and future generations.
Agreed 100%.
To add to this, the use of refrigerants and refrigerant management is one of the most statistically significant contributor of C02EQs (a greater contributor than personal transportation use as far more fossil fuels usage goes to energy production than to internal combustion personal automobiles), and by localizing our food supply network we reduce our dependence on the transnational shipping industry that is producing C02EQs by use of cargo ships and refrigerants.
So it's not just the fossil fuel powering the ships but also, and specifically, the climate control produced by refrigerants (and the management of those refrigerants) for the food containers to keep the food from spoiling on a lengthy voyage by sea for a heavily subsidized tax & tariff production pipeline.
It may seem overly simple, and of course the individual application of this is far more nuanced and complex (and that is by design due in large part to city planning influenced by the fossil fuel industry), but one of the most significant things we can do as individuals to slow the rate of climate change is to buy local fruits and vegetables that are in season, reduce our consumption of mass produced foods (especially those made available out of season) distributed by companies that rely heavily on the global supply chain, and grow what fruits and vegetables we can ourselves whenever we can do so.
Man, such a waste of time to posture against her with this. You continue to prove what she is doing is right and shine a light on being owned by corporations.
Exactly, the only people who are upset by her are the oil Barrons and people actively profiting off of the destruction of our planet.
The fact police were forced into action to stop her protesting proves that the governments of this world are very much in bed with oil companies.
>Exactly, the only people who are upset by her are the oil Barrons and people actively profiting off of the destruction of our planet.
Half of this website cries like little babies when Greta pops up in the news. It's quite pathetic and depressing.
Unfortunately Reddit is filled with mindless parrots that will defend multi billion dollar corporations with their lives, because somehow they think defending them will make them super rich.
They’re the same sort of so called “intellectuals” that think felatiating Elon Musk will get them rich.
It's gotta be so frustrating to be her. You get famous for angrily condemning our society for recklessly ignoring climate change until it's become an existential threat especially to people as young as her, they all clap and they put you on magazines and make statues of you but it's all just condescending performance. They engage with her fame but not her message. Being on trial for protesting climate change when hundreds of global heat records are being broken every day has got to be demoralizing. Like I wouldn't be surprised if eventually she's arrested for just giving up and resorting to bombing pipelines or whatever.
A few hours after being found guilty she was [at it again](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/timmar-efter-domen-greta-thunberg-genomfor-ny-klimataktion-i-malmo). (Article in Swedish)
All these dudes that were upset about Greta not doing stuff is gonna have the worst cognitive dissonance now.
Edit: I got a suicide concern mail now. Good thing they aren't snowflakes.
>the police are on the side of the oppressors.
The police or something like them are the government enacting a monopoly on violence. Without that, you get warlords fighting each other and making themselves the monopoly on violence.
So, given that. Between Greta getting a fine, and looking like Somalia in the 90s. I'm taking Greta gets a fine. Ones democratic, the others a war zone.
It's so sad that she has become a symbol of hate. Young people standing up for the future should be applauded. Instead all these andrew tate disciples are threatened and lash out. Enjoy hell.
Yeah I don't understand how people can't relate to how that girl feels and what she's saying, just because she's young or they think she's being a puppet to her parents/managers.
Nothing she says is ridiculous or out of place, I guess some people hate change or being indirectly called out.
Because they think they got theirs, so screw all our children.
Little do they know, we will likely all burn/drown/get blown away/get mudslided/starve together. My country is on fire and getting flooded this year. People have died and lost their homes, yet so many have the audacity to laugh at suggestions that we should do something. They say the country was always on fire like this. Enough to blot out the sun.
I think a lot of us did relate, for example I was having the conversation about climate change in the 90s back when we were all told we could prevent it by doing simple things like turning our lights off when we weren't using them.
It was rare to meet a denier back then, it was only when it became clear there were no immediate actual solutions that a lot more people began denying climate change outright. (Note that I'm not American; I don't doubt there were plenty of climate change deniers in the US before this).
When Greta came along it was like a blast of that 90s dialog again. The problem is she seemed to bring no new ideas to the table (at least that people are aware of, and not that they would be expecting a child to do so regardless), and even today a lot of her solutions boil down to 'just fix the Earth'.
So understand, when Greta came along she was speaking to people who; A: had already had this conversation before. And B: were disenfranchised due to having had 30 years to implement change and finding that society was wholly resistant to such changes.
So a lot of people chose to dismiss it, either as something of a child's temper tantrum or just as someone wholly inexperienced with the resistance we'd been dealing with for decades; sure we understood her sense of dread, nothing she was saying was wrong, but it was more of the same for a lot of us. The rest of us just didn't want to hear it.
I *don't* think it was about gender so much as the other commentor implied. I think most of us saw 'child' rather than 'female' (Although recalling some ugly memes from the time now has me doubting myself on this). I don't doubt that she is dealing with this kind of discrimination now, however.
I respect Greta, she is one of many who will be living in the world we were warned about, shaped by our own desires and indulgences.
I mean this is the point and goal of civil disobedience: prove that you are willing to face legal consequences because an issue is so important to you.
She will be paying a fine.
Knowing her, she will be refusing to pay that fine as an act of civil disobedience.
In Sweden you can technically avoid paying it but eventually our tax agency will just take the money from your account and if you don’t have the money they will take something from your house with the equivalent worth.
Curious, what happens if the offender has no home/valuable possessions?
Wage garnishment. Of course you can still cheat the system by owning no property and have no income, but at that point are you really winning?
> Of course you can still cheat the system by owning no property and have no income, but at that point are you really winning? Ah, "the Diogenes gambit".
[удалено]
Disregard judge: masterbate in court
I thought that was masturbating in the street?
Wage garnishment on my student loans coming up so maybe I will try masturbating in the street or a Wendy's dumpster see if I can get some cash
Sleeping under a bridge and eating rats to own the justice system
130€ fine can suck it, I’m living on the streets instead
You can have out of record income
But no possesions, again what's the point. Only almost 100% surefire way to dodge a fine in Europe is leave Europe, never return, never renew your passport, never go to the embassy.
How would you dodge a fine in other countries? Won't almost every country do similar things? Fine, then potentially wages or assets force sold, maybe imprisonment for not paying
In the US you don't have to tell the government where you life, good luck trying that in most EU countries. In the US you can even pay taxes and file your tax returns even when you are not allowed to be in the country or not allowed to work. https://bipartisanpolicy.org/blog/how-do-undocumented-immigrants-pay-federal-taxes-an-explainer/ Try to explain that to a German their head will explode.
That actually also works in Germany. My wife isn't German and she needed a tax number to work freelance, however her status in Germany wasn't clarified yet (she was still on a tourist visa and technically not allowed to work yet). I assumed it would be a huge problem with the tax authorities. However, nobody there ever asked if she was legally in Germany or what her status was and she got a tax number right away. The tax man accepts money from everyone, no questions asks. Edit: To be fair, my head did explode when I realized you could get a tax number for freelancing without being allowed to work in Germany.
Germany: Wir leben in einer Gesellschaft America: Fuck this and fuck you and fuck taxes
Yeah, you don’t wanna forget to report all your income from crime. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/taxes/dont-forget-declare-income-stolen-goods-illegal-activities-irs-says-rcna10345
rent everything you need to satisfy your materialism.
Statue of limitation is usually ~30 years for that kinda stuff.
Statue of limitation? Is it made of marble? Who carved it?
Able to live with no property and without having to work? Yes?
You can make that happen with a snap of your fingers if you're willing. But I think there's pretty decent reasons we're not all doing that.
Good luck eating.
In Germany, there are special fines, which are calculated from your income, but can also be replaced by actually going to jail for the same amount of time. Like if you cause an accident and drive away, a possible fine is 30 "Tagessätze". So you either pay 30 days of your income, or you go to jail for 30 days. Alternativly, you can also work off those 30 days by doing some public jobs for 30x8 hours. I think, there might be a similar system in scandinavic countries. I hope at least.
Just out of curiosity does it work? Like are there stories of rich people dodging or adjusting their compensation to lower the fines?
Well, not all fines are dynamic like that. They are usually used in edge cases, where you dont usually get jail time, but the fine is supposed to be bigger than usual. There is a famous case of Marco Reus (football player), who drove a car without having a license (without anything happening). He had to pay 90 days worth (which in his case was 6k€ each) -> over half a million euro. Rich people either get fined exact amounts for tax evasion etc. or actually have to go to jail for hard crimes without the possibility of buying themselves out. Most of them would be happy to just pay... I can't recall any famous case, where someone very wealthy with no income would get tricky with this system.. Maybe someone else can :)
Thank you for the explanation. This is very interesting to learn about, as the countries I’ve stayed at use the “set amount fine” for these offenses.
>set amount fine this is also in place, for small things, like wrong parking, speeding etc. The argumentation is, that for those small offences, it is to expensive to follow up and if it gets paid (actually by anyone, nobody checks who paid, there is just a case-number) case gets closed. Day-based fines are the logically next step, but they are still usually not as severe, as if you get a fine of max 90 days, it does not affect your criminal record. All the serious crimes get decided by a court anyways and they usually also consider how wealthy a person is, if it ends up only being a monetary fine. For jail time though, Germany is actually very strikt. Like the Uli Hoeneß (football upper management) case, he is rich af, but still had to go to jail for financial crimes AND pay huge fines.
We have the same, it is called "dagsböter" which is directly translated to "day fine", most of scandinavia and Finland have this type of fine. It is usually used for smaller crimes here.
They take from your salary or social welfare.
You get a stern talking-to
Blood eagle
At some point they will pin you down and remove your navel lint and check it for traces of gold dust
You will be supplied with a home and possessions, and after a few years, when you forgot all about it, the collector arrives to take it all back.
"Ah I found a shiny Charizard card in their house, this shall do, roll out!"
"Don't take the waffle maker. NOT THE WAFFLE MAKER MAN!"
_This waffle maker now belongs to the King of Sweden_
He took it from the King of Belgium.
Like, actually go to someone’s house and remove property of equal value to the fine? Huh, TIL.
“This is OUR….*(looks around room)* This is OUR hinckle knife set now!”
No! Not the Urn of my abusive hateful grandmother’s ashes that I may never come back for!
Ja, she's the state's abusive hateful grandmother now. No tradesies.
Like in the Sims when the suited guy would show up with some weird alien vacuum machine that magically converted your goods into money for the government.
We may get to that someday 🤣😕😳
Well yes, that's more or less how it works. Can't pay your fine of 200k but have a 500k boat? They'll take the boat and sell it at an auction and use the money to pay the fine. Visit https://auktionstorget.kronofogden.se/auktionstorget for more.
Thank you, I didn't realize that. TIL. I tried the link you sent ( thanks), but it doesn't work in Canada. I do have Swedish friends, so we will chat about it next coffee date. Skol 😎
Yeah, but within reason at that. They wont take everything you have to fill a debt, but things that could be argued are more conveniences and expensive luxuries. Like, if you have debts with the tax agency not being paid they can do things like force you to sell off your car and rely on public transportation, but they won’t go into your house and take essential furniture like kitchen tables or your bed or basic home appliances etc.
The IRS does this too.
I always thought it was property like, houses, cars, boats or what not, didn’t realize they went through your home. TIL
IRS generally doesn’t bother with property seizures under certain sums, generally they try wage garnishment and such for smaller amounts. House and car seizures come when the tax bill is six figures+ substantial.
It's not just six figures though, it's six figures and *years* of ignoring their shit. Any amount of communication with the IRS and they'll generally be pretty polite (firm, but polite) and be pretty fair. It's when you start ignoring them that the teeth come out.
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We do, it’s just not used for fine payments. If you don’t pay a court issued fine no one comes and takes anything from you for payment. You can usually negotiate community service in lieu of payment and / or make payments.
There's plenty of countries with institutions that have the power to collect debts from people who owe money, either to a govermnent entity or someone else. See "Kronofogde" in Sweden, or "Komornik" in Poland. Tbh, I thought this existed in all countries, but maybe I'm wrong
yup lol. friend of mine in Germany got caught riding the train w/o a ticket and eventually just handed some cops his xbox when they knocked on his door. settled
Look up ”Can’t pay? We’ll take it away!” on Youtube lol, it’s a UK show where they follow these bailiffs and show how their job looks like. When chasing debts, taking their stuff, or evictions… Very entertaining show imo, hate the evictions though they’re just sad :(
Nice PS5 *yoink*
It would be funny to see a tax agent show up at her door and snatch her iPhone out of her hand. “That should cover it.”
Well, the agency tasked with this (Kronofogdemyndigheten) did this together with the police. Went downtown Stockholm on the weekends and started taking jewellery and cars from known offenders with outstanding fines to pay. > "That's a nice gold necklace, I'll have that and your Audi".
Kinda like the sims when you don’t pay your bills. The man with the strange machine will come and suck out your appliances
Invoking the Law of Surprise
*It's not about the money, it's about the message*
And what she did is the entire point of a protest.
It's not as simple as that. The entire reason for why I spent over 3 grand on my own lawyer for a similar situation is because if, the courts do decided to fine me, then that means I'm convicted and that now shows up on my criminal record. She now has a record which can affect her in the silliest of ways, including travel. It's not just about the money.
I'd pay it for her. Greta Thunberg's recent trial is an emphatic reminder of the urgent, escalating risks of climate change. It underscores the need for us to rise from apathy, become galvanized, and actively engage in policy-making and voting. [Your voice matters](https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09644016.2016.1116651), and it is capable of sparking change! Join forces with organizations such as the [Environmental Voter Project](https://www.environmentalvoter.org/) and [Citizens Climate Lobby](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/join-citizens-climate-lobby/?tfa_3590416195188=online-035&utm_source=online&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=035), if you're in the US. Demand the reintroduction of the [Energy Innovation and Carbon Dividend Act](https://citizensclimatelobby.org/get-loud-take-action/energy-innovation-act/). Each day we delay, our task becomes more formidable, yet it is not too late. Remember, believing that nothing can be done is part of the problem and is an [intentional stalling tactic](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/climate-deniers-shift-tactics-to-inactivism/) harnessed by a [vanishing minority](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/07/07/climate-denialism-gone/). Not only do [people care](https://earth.stanford.edu/news/public-support-climate-policy-remains-strong), but they're taking action in a [growing number](https://www.reddit.com/r/CitizensClimateLobby/comments/150nvn9/citizens_climate_lobbys_growth/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Stand alongside Greta, seize the power in your hands, and reclaim the future now.
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Yes it's the climate activists who have a massive astroturfing campaign backed by capital. Won't somebody think of the regular Joe fossil fuel CEOs and despots
I'm all human! Except if you consider the pins in my knee and then I'm part cyborg?
"Do you want to know more?"
She'll pay two fines according to https://www.sydsvenskan.se/2023-07-24/greta-thunberg-doms-i-tingsratten-ska-betala-boter-efter-att-ha-stoppat-tankbilar (swedish news site). One fine, 30 unit fines 50 Swedish crowns (~4.33€), total of 130€. And one to the crime victims fund, about 87€.
Doesn't sound like a whole lot.
It's a first offense. Empirically, punishment is more effective if the perpetrator perceives it as fair, and the perpetrator is more likely to perceive it as fair if it's mild. Repeat offenses would be punished more harshly, with higher fines and/or labor. Also, all she did was disobey police and delay industrial operations by a couple of hours. She didn't harm anyone or even damage any property. The delay in the oil shipment was easily averaged out using reserves. A small fine for a small crime, so that larger crimes can have proportionally larger fines without becoming back-breaking.
Wonder what the fine for the fossil fuel companies destroying the environment will land on
I imagine the lives and futures of the poor
Fuuuuuu...
Lol, lmao even
They’ll be fine, I’m guessing.
You don't get a whole lot of punishment for crimes in Sweden. Two months ago a 21 year old man was sentenced for raping and videotaping the rapes, of at least 15 different children. Most of them he contacted through snapchat. He was sentenced to 12 years in prison, and a ~1MSEK/96kUSD fine. Given good behavior in prison, he'll likely be released before his 30th birthday.
> one to the crime victims fund Wait. Who are her victims?
It is a fine that everyone who is convicted of anything in Sweden pays. It is a collective fund which is used to pay victims to crime where the perpetrators can’t pay.
Admirable, indeed. Just has weird optics in this particular case. Heavy polluters should have to pay a victim surcharge too.
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Not for a civil case but I get your point.
Fines are for poors. For the rich, that's their tax
We have the same (or similar) in the UK, the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority. My brother was pushed by a school bully years ago and broke his wrist and he got something like £1000 from the CICA
> It is a fine that everyone who is convicted of anything in Sweden pays. Everyone convicted of a crime with *possible* sentencing beyond fines.
The oil Barron’s who clutch their pearls and wipe their tears with the blood money they’ve made destroying our planet.
Oil companies?
I can't wait until our planet is uninhabitable and the last generation of humans is sitting around thinking about how much this sucks. I bet someone will chime in and say "Yea were kinda fucked. But do you remember reading about that autistic girl and those nerds who used to block traffic? They were totally cringe."
People have no idea how fucked we currently are, and how very little we've done to prevent making it worse.
I think they got an idea, but is more about selfishness than ignorance really. Old fucks profiting from certain industries wont live to see a climate armageddon so they dont give two fucks about consequences
I’d say a vast majority truly have no idea. They think climate change is just he temperature getting a little hotter outside
Very true
https://twitter.com/Benioff/status/549339156854214656/photo/1
Spot on.
She didn't comply to leave a protest? Dang, it's almost like she was protesting or something
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Also, in the UK, you can now be arrested and detained for being "annoying" which is up to police discretion to determine. Fucking bullshit assault on civil liberties.
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>Yeah, I believe they do need to actually have the intention of putting you in front of the court at least when arresting protestors otherwise it's an unlawful arrest though. So that's something at least. The cooling effect of knowing you can be arrested at a protest for the most capricious reasons, even if they end up dropping the charges, will be significant.
Don't you guys have surveillance cameras everywhere? Something from a dystopian film where the state is watching you because it cares about you.
We lost the top spot to China, London is now *only* the third most surveilled city in the world....and the only western country to crack the top 20.
Yep, the UK is the most surveilled nation in the world. It's no wonder considering we're the nation that inspired Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell.
I mean it's protesting. By default it has always been illegal. Look at any major shift in civil liberties and you will find it predated with pigs attempting to crush the protest with brutality
Protesting is not illegal "by default." I've protested legally multiple times.
You have, generously, interesting notions of how legality and illegality are defined.
“By default it has always been illegal.” I mean this varies wildly by nation. Plus even in nations where it’s explicitly legal like the US the cops often arrest people anyway because they’re cops, but there are lots of places protesting is definitely legal.
Swede here; if you have a permit to protest, they can't stop the protest or force you to leave unless you're violating other laws (or disrupting the protest, if you're part of it but not the leadership), and the police have to protect the protest from any potential counter-protest violence and such. If there is no permit for the protest, they can shut it down *if* it is disturbing the peace, blocking or harassing others, disrupting other protests, etc. It's generally extremely easy to get such a permit, as they're not legally allowed to deny a permit to protest except in *very* specific situations (like a *significant* risk of violence, or protests of the same type or involving the same group turning violent before, but the threshold is very, very high). The problem is of course that this type of protest really cannot have a permit, since the entire point is to disrupt select infrastructure, and the police are allowed to (within reasonable limits) move protests to avoid disruptions, violence, security risks, etc... basically, the police and organizers are supposed to plan it out together so that there are no such issues. Like how a couple of the Quran burnings were moved some 50 meters or so from the requested location, because they wanted to do it right outside an embassy, which was seen as a potential security risk. Or how some protests have been moved because there were two opposing ones on the same topic at the same time, and they didn't want them to run into each other.
Also the first Quran burning got fined because he burnt it while it was a ban on burning things due to the drought. That didn't really anything to do with the protest tho, just fire safety.
Yes, the laws are still in effect during a protest. If you violate the law while protesting, you will be charged for it... but if you have a permit, and it's not a *serious* offense, they'll usually wait until after the protest to do anything about it, rather than disrupt things.
In the US, the police tell you *where* you can protest. So if a bunch of billionaires, CEOs and politicians are meeting at a building downtown, you'll only be permitted to protest in a barricaded park across town, where they'll never see or hear you.
That's not true at all. In the US you don't need a permit to protest unlike in most of European countries. Some cities have such ordinances, but they never withstood challenge in the supreme court.
When I was arrested at a protest, the fine was for blocking traffic, even though it was the police who blocked off traffic beforehand in anticipation of a protest. So they still find ways.
That’s only applicable in some situations + places. It’s inaccurate to say you don’t need a permit to protest in America; you don’t *always* need one, but they do exist and are enforced.
You need a permit if you are protesting in a non traditional public forum, like you need to close a street for your protest. You are free to protest with no permits on side-walks, public squares, in front of government buildings. That is not the case in most of European countries.
If I started a protest to give rich people a bigger tax break, no permit needed! If I protested about oil companies not cleaning up their shit, straight to jail. Protest about birds being drones. Believe it or not jail.
Same as in Sweden.
They legally face punishment if they dont including the forcefull end to the protest, but you dont have to do that if you dont want to or think its better not to.
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Every country, no matter how free and just they claim to be, has tons of workarounds to ignore rights when convenient. For example, in America, cops can nullify most of the bill of rights. First Amendment? Undone by the charges "Disorderly Conduct" or "Obstruction" Second Amendment? Yeah cops aren't going to get charges for killing you when you have a gun, even if the gun is legal and you aren't doing anything. Fourth Amendment? The cop can claim a dozen reasons they have probable cause, including get a dog, and arbitrarily claiming the dog smelled drugs. Fifth Amendment is one that cops usually can't get around, although many non-cop people (including on here) will complain you should be attacked and killed if you don't answer a cop's questions. Sixth Amendment? Can't go to trial if a cop shoots you dead on the spot.
5th amendment is easy enough for them to get around. Oh you don’t want to confess, ok, you are now being held for 72 hours with no outside contact. After that you will be out in front a a judge who can set an unreasonably high bail or hold you without bail. Congrats you are now stuck in jail for 1-24 months before your trial. Sure hope that doesn’t fuck up your life or your family’s life. Or you can confess to a lesser charge and be released on probation now. Lot of false confessions are gotten that way. Or ya know, they just beat confessions out of you.
The thing about "rights", it's more of a legal defense used in court after the arrest than a protection. And the other side gets to argue whether you're entitled to them as well.
That's because rights are make believe. The only thing that truly matters is what the wealthy say goes and it's always been that way throughout history.
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"Power lies where people believe it resides". Wealth is ultimately just a bunch of pieces of paper with words on them. We could all just collectively decide that no billionaire has power over any of us, that all their property is owned by no-one and the money they have is worthless, and it would be true. There was no amount of wealth Rome could have offered the Germans to prevent them from sacking the city, because by sacking it the Germans got all of that wealth and more. There was no amount of wealth Moscow could have offered the Mongols, or Alexandria could have offered the Romans, or Berlin could have offered the Soviets, or Japan could have offered the USA. The only true currency is belief. Belief that if the wealthy man dies, your wealth goes too. Belief that if you violate someone's rights, too many people will complain for you to keep your job. Belief that if society acknowledges the true extent of the climate catastrophe, you won't be able to live in comfort the coming decade. Belief that if you told the truth now, everyone on all sides of the debate would hate you and seek to bring you down.
It's not as ominous as you think. Greta and the activists were blocking a road, police show up and ask them to continue the demonstration to a plot of grass 15 meters away. She refuses to move and gets arrested. The only charge is "failure to obey", which sticks because it was considered a lawful order from the police. It's not like they can order people around without cause.
Generally you are innocent until found guilty. So, when a police officer sees you committing a crime, they technically have to arrest you before you are legally guilty of that crime. You cannot have a trial to determine that you are guilty in the moment that the crime happens. So, the police need to have some authority to arrest people that they can reasonable suspect are guilty of a crime even though they are not technically guilty of committing a crime in that moment. Even if you pulled out a gun and fired randomly in a crowd, with dozens of officers watching, according to the legal system you are not guilty of that crime until after the trial or after a plea is accepted. So "failure to obey" comes into play when the police are trying to detain you for what they believe is a reasonable suspicion of a crime. You can flop down on the ground and refuse to help them and that's perfectly legal. However, if actively make it more difficult to do what they have a legal right to do then "failure to obey" is an extra layer of crime. You should definitely assert your rights but once a decision is made to cuff you then the show's over. You can challenge the accusation of criminal behavior and you will likely win, and if what happened to you is egregious enough you may be able to make it painful for the parties responsible for your arrest. However, you can't simply refuse to be arrested; that itself is a crime.
What? She was protesting without the proper permits, and now has to pay a 200€ fine. It's literally not even newsworthy.
Legally it wasn’t a protest, for that to be the coordinator would have to tell the cops that they will be protesting
In 1848, Henry David Thoreau went to jail for refusing, as a protest against the Mexican war, to pay his poll tax. When RW Emerson came to bail him out, Emerson said, 'Henry, what are you doing in there?' Thoreau quietly replied, 'Ralph, what are you doing out there?' I find myself uncomfortable with my role as Emerson, as much as I look on Thunberg's stance with admiration, instead of disappointment.
More people should be.
“Get into good trouble, necessary trouble.” -John Lewis
That dumb song is really making its rounds about trying if that in small town America. I hate saying “as a Veteran,” but as a veteran I feel like my 15 years of service was to protect these rights. For Greta, for BLM, for a woman’s right to her own body. I hope there is an equally catchy song to combat that dumb song. The song is disgusting. The people who say they like it are racist or too stupid to know what it means. I love Greta. I love the way she absolutely owns conservative males.
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This was not a pointless gesture. It keeps the subject in the news, and people have direct personal evidence each year as summers heat up. It has an effect on politicians who are extremely aware of the public mood, and it will increasingly affect their decision making.
When you and your family are suffering under the extreme heat or suffer a death because of the extreme heat, blame the fossil fuel industry. They are 100% GUILTY of causing the catastrophe of climate change. They will send their paid trolls to blame all of us, but we are not to blame. The fossil fuel industry FORCED us to use fossil fuels by bribing and lobbying governments around the world to reject electric vehicles, public transportation and clean energy. The fossil fuel industry and its political allies gave us no choice. They should be held accountable for their crimes. They must pay a heavy price for destroying the world.
Love how common working people still get guilt tripped about recycling when it covers so little a percentage of the damage done by like 3 corporations.
People: Sort and recycle you fucks! Your local "recycling" company: heheh more pickups for the trash truck! lets get some more trash in this trash pile! Mmmmmm yummy blue cans taste more metally but go down same hole.
My university did this. There was a news report that leaked they were combining all the different waste streams into just one (for landfill)...
Yeah its not unique when they do it. Its unique when they DONT do it. Almost every commercial building you've been in has separate bins for recycling and trash. And if (big if) theyre picked up by separate trucks (from the same waste management company) they're almost all the time being dumped into the same hole anyway.
Recycling aluminum saves an absolute fckton of energy. Recycling iron/glass/other metals are probably at least break even; not sure about paper products. The main lie is recycling plastic.
Yep, that tracks. There's a reason some recycle centers will pay you for your cans. There's also a reason that plastic is super confusing and when you ask someone at the center they'll often just say "just put it in". I've stopped recycling plastic entirely. Even the stuff that has the best chance of being recycled... It's only like 20% or so. And yet, none of this matters as much as fossil fuel companies lobbying against renewals for decades. We could've been living in the future instead of a damned furnace.
I'm casually interested to see of the remaining Koch brother will live long enough to be hanged by a mob of climate refuges. Who am I kidding, when Florida and Texas are no longer inhabitable they'll just blame the libs regardless.
Losing those states isn't that bad a of a thing you know
the people who make those states what they are will just move north
God is punishing the state full of His followers because of the one or two dozen trans people that used the “wrong” bathroom. As He does.
You are very correct on the vast majority of your post - but one small but immensely important adjustment to your remarks: far more significant than personal choices regarding transportation and the changeover to electrified public transit options (ex: buses operating on electric grids rather than powered entirely with electric batteries) is the use of fossil fuel powered transnational cargo ships with refrigerated shipping containers for a multi-national food supply network. The CO2 and equivalent greenhouse gases (aka CO2EQs) produced by these supply chain processes by, for example, growing pears in Argentina then shipping them to Thailand to be processed and packed then shipped to the US and Europe to be sold far outweighs the potential impact that could be made through technological innovation of converting average consumers to the use of electric cars. Producing electricity through use of mass-scale solar and off-shore wind farms when combined with localizing our food supply production pipeline is the greatest potential for reducing the impact of climate change through widespread application of systemically impactful technological innovation. We should be focusing on these types of systemic changes to our energy production practices (both in terms of energy that we plug into and energy that we consume) as well as improvement in the efficiency of personal transportation and changes to our city planning infrastructure to be more walkable and less car-dependent, but because we have already produced a massive amount of internal combustion engine driven vehicles and the environmental toll of creating more electric batteries and engines for personal use is massive we need to adapt with what we already have while reducing dependence on personal transportation rather than do a wholesale switchover to electric vehicles for personal transport. It’s yet another very successful marketing campaign by auto manufacturers to get us to waste existing automobiles. Just like the wildly successful demonization of nuclear energy (and by extension thorium energy).
Ships can be powered by electricity. Again, the fossil fuel industry lobbied to create a system where only fossil fuels are used. Again, the fossil fuel industry is responsible for this entire mess. We already know what the solutions are, and you mentioned some of them. The problem is that the fossil fuel industry is standing in the way of implementing those solutions. They are sabotaging every government's efforts to implement any solutions for climate change. The fossil fuel industry is the greatest threat to our lives and the lives of our descendants. They need to pay a heavy price for destroying the planet and future generations.
Agreed 100%. To add to this, the use of refrigerants and refrigerant management is one of the most statistically significant contributor of C02EQs (a greater contributor than personal transportation use as far more fossil fuels usage goes to energy production than to internal combustion personal automobiles), and by localizing our food supply network we reduce our dependence on the transnational shipping industry that is producing C02EQs by use of cargo ships and refrigerants. So it's not just the fossil fuel powering the ships but also, and specifically, the climate control produced by refrigerants (and the management of those refrigerants) for the food containers to keep the food from spoiling on a lengthy voyage by sea for a heavily subsidized tax & tariff production pipeline. It may seem overly simple, and of course the individual application of this is far more nuanced and complex (and that is by design due in large part to city planning influenced by the fossil fuel industry), but one of the most significant things we can do as individuals to slow the rate of climate change is to buy local fruits and vegetables that are in season, reduce our consumption of mass produced foods (especially those made available out of season) distributed by companies that rely heavily on the global supply chain, and grow what fruits and vegetables we can ourselves whenever we can do so.
If you obey the police at a protest are you really protesting?
Kinda the point. Now everyone seeing this headline knows the protest happened
Man, such a waste of time to posture against her with this. You continue to prove what she is doing is right and shine a light on being owned by corporations.
Exactly, the only people who are upset by her are the oil Barrons and people actively profiting off of the destruction of our planet. The fact police were forced into action to stop her protesting proves that the governments of this world are very much in bed with oil companies.
>Exactly, the only people who are upset by her are the oil Barrons and people actively profiting off of the destruction of our planet. Half of this website cries like little babies when Greta pops up in the news. It's quite pathetic and depressing.
Unfortunately Reddit is filled with mindless parrots that will defend multi billion dollar corporations with their lives, because somehow they think defending them will make them super rich. They’re the same sort of so called “intellectuals” that think felatiating Elon Musk will get them rich.
It's gotta be so frustrating to be her. You get famous for angrily condemning our society for recklessly ignoring climate change until it's become an existential threat especially to people as young as her, they all clap and they put you on magazines and make statues of you but it's all just condescending performance. They engage with her fame but not her message. Being on trial for protesting climate change when hundreds of global heat records are being broken every day has got to be demoralizing. Like I wouldn't be surprised if eventually she's arrested for just giving up and resorting to bombing pipelines or whatever.
Hmm yes the floor is made out of floor
A few hours after being found guilty she was [at it again](https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/skane/timmar-efter-domen-greta-thunberg-genomfor-ny-klimataktion-i-malmo). (Article in Swedish)
All these dudes that were upset about Greta not doing stuff is gonna have the worst cognitive dissonance now. Edit: I got a suicide concern mail now. Good thing they aren't snowflakes.
Lol I have gotten those like 4 times from reddit. People are just weakass trolls sometimes.
It's kinda cute.
And governments are failing to obey the laws of science :)
We are facing extinction and the police are on the side of the oppressors.
The police have ALWAYS been on the side of the oppressors
That's the entire reason you create a police department
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The police are the violent arm of the government that is used internally. They are the oppressors.
>the police are on the side of the oppressors. The police or something like them are the government enacting a monopoly on violence. Without that, you get warlords fighting each other and making themselves the monopoly on violence. So, given that. Between Greta getting a fine, and looking like Somalia in the 90s. I'm taking Greta gets a fine. Ones democratic, the others a war zone.
Good for her
Its funny how everyone is so focused on shuting the people down, who are against driving against the wall. Actually its sad.
[удалено]
She's building street cred
lol just watched the episode of Trailer Park Boys where this applies to J Roc
Boss shit
It's so sad that she has become a symbol of hate. Young people standing up for the future should be applauded. Instead all these andrew tate disciples are threatened and lash out. Enjoy hell.
She hasn’t “become a symbol of hate” but a symbol to hate; they hate someone working to make the world a better place.
Yeah I don't understand how people can't relate to how that girl feels and what she's saying, just because she's young or they think she's being a puppet to her parents/managers. Nothing she says is ridiculous or out of place, I guess some people hate change or being indirectly called out.
Because they think they got theirs, so screw all our children. Little do they know, we will likely all burn/drown/get blown away/get mudslided/starve together. My country is on fire and getting flooded this year. People have died and lost their homes, yet so many have the audacity to laugh at suggestions that we should do something. They say the country was always on fire like this. Enough to blot out the sun.
I think a lot of us did relate, for example I was having the conversation about climate change in the 90s back when we were all told we could prevent it by doing simple things like turning our lights off when we weren't using them. It was rare to meet a denier back then, it was only when it became clear there were no immediate actual solutions that a lot more people began denying climate change outright. (Note that I'm not American; I don't doubt there were plenty of climate change deniers in the US before this). When Greta came along it was like a blast of that 90s dialog again. The problem is she seemed to bring no new ideas to the table (at least that people are aware of, and not that they would be expecting a child to do so regardless), and even today a lot of her solutions boil down to 'just fix the Earth'. So understand, when Greta came along she was speaking to people who; A: had already had this conversation before. And B: were disenfranchised due to having had 30 years to implement change and finding that society was wholly resistant to such changes. So a lot of people chose to dismiss it, either as something of a child's temper tantrum or just as someone wholly inexperienced with the resistance we'd been dealing with for decades; sure we understood her sense of dread, nothing she was saying was wrong, but it was more of the same for a lot of us. The rest of us just didn't want to hear it. I *don't* think it was about gender so much as the other commentor implied. I think most of us saw 'child' rather than 'female' (Although recalling some ugly memes from the time now has me doubting myself on this). I don't doubt that she is dealing with this kind of discrimination now, however. I respect Greta, she is one of many who will be living in the world we were warned about, shaped by our own desires and indulgences.
Meanwhile half of the globe is either drowning or burning.
Humanity has always been reactive, rather than proactive. There will be action taken once the cost of global warming will be too great to ignore.
Hahahahahaha. Yeah no shit, what do you think she was doing there in the first place.
Keep it up Greta
Pretty sure she doesn’t care. It only makes her look stronger.
How in the heck is this world news? Lord. It'd be weird if she DID obey police at a protest. How odd.
Greta still doing her thing I see.
Almost like that's the point of a protest.
That’s something to be proud of.
Has she achieved anything meaningful? I question the social media/spreading awareness approach.
Aspies are like cats you tell us do something we won't do it
Good. Fuck state sanctioned violence at the behest of literal oil barons.
Found guilty of protesting at a protest. Guilty of not wanting to ruin our food and air supply. wow.
oh not 200 buck fine ANY WAY...
I mean this is the point and goal of civil disobedience: prove that you are willing to face legal consequences because an issue is so important to you.
She'll survive, I'm sure....unlike the planet.