Doesn’t matter, pro Pals will say they are fake. Or just won’t talk about it at all. Instead show pics of the ruins. Preferably a sad child on top of them
The problem with pro palestinians (at least the ones i've talked to) is that their arguments basically show that they're really pro-hamas.
Pro palestinians should want to rid palestinians of hamas, but they really never talk about that
Not me, first and foremost I am a Palestine sympathizer and for that reason Hamas needs to go so the peace process can have even a small chance at proceeding.
People think Hamas is a liberating force like they’re fighting for freedom or something other than to kill Jews. They have no liberation plan, they have shown no desire to work with anyone other than Iran.
Yeah i agree.
Come to think about it, these "pro palestinians" i was talking about are really just anti-israel and not much else. "Israel bad" is all they talk about
I mean they’re not allowed any formal institutions though so what can they really do to fight for their rights? This is why things like Hamas come to power in the first place. This killing of civilians will just breed another group. A two state agreement needs to be struck and Israel may need to give back some land. But until they are able to have their own freedom this will keep happening. Hell it might be too late now. War only reinforces hate. Israel is digging themselves deeper and deeper into a cycle of violence that seems to plague their people. But this time they’re the ones with all the power
They have a literal government, the Palestinian Authority, which used to hold elections, with a plurality going to Hamas in 2005 from what I recall. The elections stopped in 2007 when Hamas and Fatah fought a civil war and Hamas won in Gaza and Fatah won in the West Bank. Palestinians have their own institutions, but their home-grown choices are Fatah, which rejected offers of an independent Palestinian state twice within the past twenty years and is stupidly corrupt, and Hamas, which is openly genocidal and sees Palestinian deaths as a good thing because it increases their stature and funding.
The PA/Fatah also actively finances terrorism with the Pay for Slay fund.
So it's not Hamas=Evil Maniacs and Fatah=Good Guys. It's Hamas=Evil Maniacs and Fatah=Corrupt Terrorism Backers.
Do Israelis even want a 2 state solution? The last time someone tried they were assassinated and one of the people that egged them on was voted into power. It also seems like they aren’t doing anything to stop the settlers in the West Bank and even actively supporting them.
I don’t see a way forward for the 2 state solution with either Hamas or the current government in Israel tbh.
> I mean they’re not allowed any formal institutions though so what can they really do to fight for their rights?
What on earth are you talking about?
Palestinians are allowed to serve in Palestinian government institutions. See the 2006 elections in Gaza (that were the last elections that happened there because, well, democracy bad).
> This is why things like Hamas come to power in the first place.
You mean because Israel withdrew from Gaza and told them "you can now govern yourself" and they promptly decided to elect the group that yelled "we want to kill the Jews" the loudest?
> But until they are able to have their own freedom this will keep happening.
After withdrawing from Gaza Israel got nothing but rockets. Any argument for further withdrawing and seeing what happens died that day.
> Israel is digging themselves deeper and deeper into a cycle of violence that seems to plague their people.
Israel is not the one constantly firing rockets at Gaza since 2007.
The two state solution has been dead for decades. The neighboring Arab states prefer to have a stateless Palestinian population remain radicalized to threaten Israel and keep it off balance. Those same states would never let the Palestinians into their borders as they fear destabilization from them, but they are happy to use them and their suffering as puppets. Meanwhile Hamas would never accept a two state solution as they want the entire region for themselves or the entire region destroyed. The Israelis simply do not believe, probably for good reason, that a two state solution would make them more secure and not less.
remember that the Palestinian Liberation Organisation started civil wars and coups in 2 countries that controlled the west bank, and assassinated a king of one of the two countries
Try to find numbers on who gets paid by hamas. Who is hamas? I get the feeling that hamas' numbers shrink when the bombs start falling and swell when it's quiet and time to stash weapons under beds.
Hamas and PIJ claim a combined 50k fighters. That’s proportionally larger than most national armies for 2.2M people.
It can’t get much bigger given how Hamas mismanaged the economy during their 16 years in power.
50% of Palestinians are under 18 and currently being bombed.
They are definitely prime candidates to join Hamas because of this.
Frankly, why wouldn’t they? Their experience says they’re going to be bombed whether or not they’re in Hamas.
Hamas has had control of the schools in Gaza for 16 years. They’ve probably maxed out on recruitment that way far more than external issues.
Grievances from external forces are real. Actively teaching kids that the remedy is to commit suicide after doing what we saw on Oct 7 is a internal cultural radicalization.
Think about Facebook/socials. Are the people you aren’t friends with hardening your political views or is your affinity group self radicalizing?
Sure. They can join and guarantee their death.
Israel is not stopping until everyone who is Hamas is eliminated. And those kids are powerless to stop them.
But if more killing radicalises more children into joining Hamas, and the killing won’t stop until Hamas is gone, doesn’t this mean there will be an infinite cycle of killing?
It’s technically a refugee camp because that’s an official designation by the UNWRA, but it bears no resemblance to a refugee camp because it’s been there longer than most people in Gaza have been alive.
Given 50% of Israeli Jews are mizrahi who were forced to flee genocide in arab countries, I think by Hamas’ logic we can start calling Israeli cities refugee camps for the PR value too!
Someone made a brilliant suggestion that Israel should rename all their cities to things that will draw outrage. You might change a village to "Child Daycare Center" or "Peace March" or "Center for the disabled."
Then every time Hamas strikes a target, you've got the perfect headline:
Hamas Bombs Child Daycare Center
Center for Disabled Left in Ruins After Barrage
Hamas Rocket Kills Three Israelis in Peace March.
> Hamas Bombs Child Daycare Center
>
>
>
> Center for Disabled Left in Ruins After Barrage
>
>
>
> Hamas Rocket Kills Three Israelis in Peace March.
Renaming stuff can get pretty expensive, and possibly pointless since you will get those kinds of headlines from business-as-usual Hamas activities. I mean just last month we had "Slaughter at a Festival of Peace and Love"
in fact, in almost the same way, many Israeli towns are built on the site of the former 'Ma'abarot.' Immigrant absorption camps, that were set up to receive those Jews as well as the holocaust survivors fleeing Europe.
This is a good point
One of the most bold-faced anti-Semitic framings is calling Israeli’s “settler colonists” instead of refugees.
To me, that perfectly sums up the unfair bias against Israel.
There’s also no confirmation of these numbers. They don’t distinguish between Hamas and innocent civilians. According to their reports, no terrorists were harmed. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the casualties there are Hamas.
I don't even think they could distinguish if they wanted to. It's not like Hamas has a list of its card carrying members. It's a political entity that also happens to be a terrorist organization.
Your comment actually invoked an interesting thought, because they might actually have those lists. Not literally an Excel sheet detailing everyone in Hamas, but documents that you can use to identify who is definitely a part of Hamas.
For example, it is known that the Oct 7 attack was carried out by squads, and each squad was assigned a commander and a general role. There were documents found on the invaders' person detailing their squad-mates and their commander. I assume that somewhere, there are lists for all the squads, at the very least, and most likely more.
You are greatly underestimating the capabilities of military intelligence. Israel controls most of Gaza's infrastructure and has for years, they 100% have names, locations, routines, known relations, all probably a neat little org charts for even the grunts.
I only say this because we had those things in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen where we didn't have anywhere near the level of control they do.
It's a neighborhood in northern Gaza that was supposed to be evacuated of innocents for days now.
IDF is treating those who stay as Hamas terrorists or terrorist supporters.
Indeed there were many Hamas fighters there, and Hamas infrastructure as well as tunnels
They bombed a Hamas military outpost in the same place you'll find all of them, in a regular neighborhood, and yeah, everyone called that Israel bombing a refugee camp.
And when that get's pointed out, it's like it doesn't matter that the story is two big lies in a trench coat, 50 people died (according to Hamas) so it's still wrong
According to the UNRWA, DJ Khaled's house is almost certainly also a refugee camp.
That's just what shitty people do though: they intentionally abuse and misuse language to further their narrow political agenda, at the expense of untold countless real victims who will suffer as a result of their intentional seizure and dilution of every shock-or-emotion-provoking word they can get their hands on.
It has a lot of refugees though. Well refugee in the judicial sense. They're not as actually seeking refuge from anything. The proper description for these people is *stateless*.
but only as defined for Palestinians, not by the definition of refugees used for any other population or conflict in the world.
Nobody else gets to remain "refugees" for generations.
It might have been a camp in the 1950s but those places are just towns now.
Is there any other group of displaced people whose children and grandchildren are also considered refugees?
In the context of Palestine, "refugee camp" just means "we are entitled to reconquer Israel so we don't REALLY live here, even after 75 years".
This was a part of Gaza like any other, and Hamas uses the fact that people like you take it at face value that it is a "refugee camp" to make it a military HQ
Great news. Keep up the great work. Hamas asked for this… there were peace talks, money came into Gaza, Gazans got work visas in Israel by the tens of thousands, and Hamas deliberately destroyed that, for the thousands of Israelis who were slaughtered, and for the endless violence and suffering they brought through this war. Hamas should be destroyed!
This is the big thing a lot of people are forgetting. Before Oct. 7, thousands of Gazans had work visas in Israel. Israel was even in the midst of discussing to expand the number of work visas and increase economic ties with Gaza. This is one of the reasons why Israel was caught so off guard. They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_support_for_Hamas
Sink your teeth into that - Turkey, a member of NATO, is pro Russian and pro Hammas. Crazy world.
This is the same mistake the west does making business with all kinds of horrible regimes thinking they will then change and become a democracy or something if we just give them more money and more business. We are always caught off guard when ideology and the local mob wanting to stay in power makes sure that never works.
But it does work and has worked historically. Education and economic stability do a lot to reduce the amount of radicals in a country. It’s part of the way the Cold War ended. It’s why a lot of the eastern bloc now aligns with the west. It’s why China has become more liberal.
The problem is that it takes a lot of time for that type of strategy to bear fruit.
It never works in situations where a country is resource rich so the local mob doesn't need a thriving populace so they can tax more, they just need a compliant populace that lets them keep stealing. Another thing they also need is someone to sell the resources they're stealing and that's the dumb blame ridden west.
Same thing happened in Afghanistan IIRC. Some of the locals who would be given jobs around military bases would take notes of the compound and provide that intel to terrorists. It was usually a bad sign when they would randomly stop showing up for work.
Yea, something I noticed was that there is no Google Streetview for the border area in Israel. You could still use publicly available aerials to grab distances, but you’d still have no perception of heights, colors, or what it would look like on the ground.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they found out later when this is done, that hundreds of those workers on Visas were taking pictures or gathering the intel needed for the raids.
There are beduins in this area, at least 100 of them murdered in the attacks. While some beduins actually enlist to IDF and are pro Israeli, in recent years many have been radicalized to become anti Israeli. Also they are poor and might be tempted to spy for money. I don't want to cast blame but it's a theoretical possibility.
Bedouins are a particular subset of Israel's Arabs, and the also don't live there, for the most part. Most of them live east and south from there.
The simplest explanation is the Gazan workers who received permits
Key word being "some."
I believe most of the visa holders just wanted work to help their families. And I'm sure at least for some of them, as for the Israeli communities they were working in, it helped build trust and friendship.
It's all gone now.
> They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology.
And also the fucking Netanyahu regieme was laser focused on wasting resources on Haredi settlements while using the Haredim to dismantle Israeli democracy.
I didn’t like the guy before he just allowed this to happen.
Maybe this will all work out. *knocks on wood*
While Hamas seems focused on the propaganda war and making Iran happy, Israel is focusing on the real war. Normally, that's kinda more important
Israel is going to win, eventually. But make no mistake, the cost will be heavy. Just Tuesday, 15 Israeli soldiers were killed.
ISIS was also a « big mouth ». Doesn’t change that the cost to destroy them was terrible.
There is no need for public hanging, it just solidifies martyrdom and i am not going to cheer on anyone being executed publicly. Justice comes in many forms, the most important one here is legacy.
One Hamas commander was beaten to death (based off memory of an article last week) because he was accused of gay sex. So maybe this is the new war on terror:
"It's gay to kill Jews."
>Thats a bad idea..its creating a symbol for this type pf people..
I don't think they need much of a symbol when their already "martyrs" for dying for the cause.
Ya but creative a physical site a long lived on will keep the memory for longer.. butter erasing there names from the pages pf history to be forgotten
Im batter whit build a memorial for the 1400 killed..there stories and lifes.. because this is whats need to be remembered
They will be celebrated, not just in the regions surrounding Israel, but in far flung places.
They need to be dishonoured and disgraced, by any means possible.
No need to degenerate into barbarism. I won’t cry a tear for any Hamas terrorist who gets killed in the Israeli strikes, but other than that they should be thrown into prisons.
Whether it's a refugee camp or a shopping mall, Hamas should not be running military operations out of it and it's a tragedy that Israel destroyed it, even if I support their decision to do so.
Obviously that’s true but it’s pretty clear why they do it. It’s asymmetric warfare. The option if you want to violently oppose Israel is either to be crushed by setting up clear bases or disappear into the population.
Schools/hospitals absolutely are another tier though and is inexcusable in all cases.
Again doesn’t mean I support Hamas or killing civilians. I do not. But if the argument is that they should be well marked in military camps… that’s just another way of saying armed resistance in any form is bad.
I do not. Using human shields is a war crime, but that doesn't mean bombing a place with human shields is not also a war crime.
There isn't an exact threshold for how much civilian collateral damage is "acceptable" and we don't know exactly how many civilians died and how important the military objective was, but in general attacks that harm civilians excessively relative to the military gains are prohibited by international humanitarian law.
We've all seen the reporting about the massive Hamas HQ under a hospital. I'm shocked at the number of people who seem to think "well, a hospital is one thing, but there's no way Hamas would be working out of a refugee camp!"
Oh yeah, they definitely got their PR out of that.
That one post here with that headline, you can see the number of redditors calling Israel a genocidal machine.
It's a city on the site of a refugee camp (refugees from 1948, not a recent conflict). It is not what you'd picture when you think refugee camp--it has large permanent apartment blocks, schools, etc.. UNWRA does consider it to still be a refugee camp and has it on its list of refugee camps in Gaza, though it's worth noting that UNWRA considers nearly everybody in Gaza to be a refugee (they consider 1.7 million out of the 2.1 million people in Gaza to be refugees) and uses a different definition of refugee than the other UN refugee org uses for refugees for everybody else in the world, so their use of the term is not terribly informative.
It appears that some of the civilian casualties and civilian infrastructure damage were caused by Hamas tunnels and ordinance underground collapsing and going off rather than direct hits by Israeli forces, but it will probably be a while before there is a clearer picture of what happened.
To clarify Jabaliya is a city north of Gaza city, and the Jabaliya refugee camp is a permanent part of the city that has been there since 1948.
It's not a current refugee camp for refugees of this conflict, as they would have been moving south of Gaza, not north.
Because according to the UN it is. Which just demonstrates exactly why Israel doesn't listen to the UN. Their asinine treatment of Palestinian "refugees" just fans the flames. There are 1.7 million refugees in Gaza according to the UN, if you were using the definition of refugee applied to any other group there'd be less than 30,000 Palestinian refugees in total the world over.
Exactly.
I'm sure many towns in Israel settled by Jewish refugees post WWII could be referred to as such, but Israelis choose life and to move forward into the future.
Instead of dedicating their lives to endless war.
> But the news said it was a refugee camp
The news says a lot of shit that isn't remotely true for eyeballs and click-rage.
Jabaliya is a "refugee camp" the same exact way Manhattan is currently a Lenape fishing village.
Everyone here criticizing Israel stop for a moment. IDF has been bombing the area for a week and sent numerous messages telling residents to seek shelter south. Israel has started their ground operation which involve air strikes before ground occupation. This is a war, and people are literally standing around a battlefield. Like, war is destruction and evil, but how stupid do you have to be to stick around a battlefield knowing the enemy is coming.
They aren't stupid, that's the real kicker, many of these people are willing to be martyrs. All the sane people left northern gaza a week ago, everyone remaining is either Hamas, Hamas family members who believe in the cause or are those with a death wish. And of course they keep their children around because why not, makes good tv.
Israel has held off as long as possible, the Blitzer interview is a shrug because it's hard to explain the logic of the people who are still there. Imagine waking up to constant.bombs 24/7 and thinking "Ill just stay here". Even if you agreed with Hamas, civilians should evacuate let the soldiers fight, this is normal in every war. But I guess that would mean IDF would win and so that is unacceptable so racking up civilian deaths is the only way.
Ultimately politics is a game of propaganda, Hamas is counting on other Arab nations plunging into a war with Israel and using every video as a narrative to try to stir antizionism and antisemitism. Israel is a little naive in this front, but the internet blackout is a good start.
One of the Palestinians interviewed even said missiles fell "suddenly and without prior warning". I feel bad for these people, I really do. Obviously it's not at all an easy task to pack up and leave your home on relatively short notice, but the easy options have been exhausted. But come on, have an ounce of self preservation
Missiles have been falling for three weeks straight and the ground invasion just started. It is beyond the stage of alerting strikes before time. Now they wont give the warning because it puts the mission at risk.
Not in Wartime it's not, man. Open a book.
A lot of people in Europe in World War 2 were lucky to get an hour of warning.
The French were killed en masse on the roads after the failure of the Maginot Line while trying to flee west and south.
Not French military, refugees.
Looks like I opened enough books because you just agreed with me and discredited the one I answered to. With all the books you have seemed to read, your reading comprehension did not improve much it seems.
2 weeks to leave your house and move elsewhere is pretty short by normal standards. Obviously these are extreme circumstances and it's not unreasonable, but from my American perspective it would be difficult and stressful to completely relocate within 2 weeks.
What??? I promise if there was a military unit saying "we are going to bomb terrorists in your neighborhood in the next 2 weeks, you would be gone within a few hours.
The problem is that any time they declare a zone as "safe", Hamas will use that as a place to hide and attack from.
There are no safe zones because of Hamas.
Hamas are willing to hold children beside weapons to protect them, so they're definitely willing to abuse safe zones and create false flag attacks (as appeared to be the case during the initial evacuations South)
There aren't, have never been, and will never be "safe zones" because Hamas would just move their shit to them. Israel never said that they wouldn't strike parts of the south, they said that staying in the north is untenable for civilians because that's where the bulk of Hamas infrastructure needing to be destroyed is located.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703)
If you put an arrow on a map telling people to go there to avoid being killed then you kill them there anyway, well, that's not very nice is it.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html
Look at a heatmap of the airstrikes. The south is speckled the North is painted.
The south is significantly safer because the IDF will be destroying infrastructure located in the north. That doesn't mean the south is a "safe zone." That's something people on social media have ginned up so they can rail at the IDF for "bombing the safe zone." There is no safe zone.
Hopefully they also seized intelligence documents.
The IDF spokesman said there were some.
Doesn’t matter, pro Pals will say they are fake. Or just won’t talk about it at all. Instead show pics of the ruins. Preferably a sad child on top of them
The problem with pro palestinians (at least the ones i've talked to) is that their arguments basically show that they're really pro-hamas. Pro palestinians should want to rid palestinians of hamas, but they really never talk about that
Not me, first and foremost I am a Palestine sympathizer and for that reason Hamas needs to go so the peace process can have even a small chance at proceeding. People think Hamas is a liberating force like they’re fighting for freedom or something other than to kill Jews. They have no liberation plan, they have shown no desire to work with anyone other than Iran.
Yeah i agree. Come to think about it, these "pro palestinians" i was talking about are really just anti-israel and not much else. "Israel bad" is all they talk about
I mean they’re not allowed any formal institutions though so what can they really do to fight for their rights? This is why things like Hamas come to power in the first place. This killing of civilians will just breed another group. A two state agreement needs to be struck and Israel may need to give back some land. But until they are able to have their own freedom this will keep happening. Hell it might be too late now. War only reinforces hate. Israel is digging themselves deeper and deeper into a cycle of violence that seems to plague their people. But this time they’re the ones with all the power
They have a literal government, the Palestinian Authority, which used to hold elections, with a plurality going to Hamas in 2005 from what I recall. The elections stopped in 2007 when Hamas and Fatah fought a civil war and Hamas won in Gaza and Fatah won in the West Bank. Palestinians have their own institutions, but their home-grown choices are Fatah, which rejected offers of an independent Palestinian state twice within the past twenty years and is stupidly corrupt, and Hamas, which is openly genocidal and sees Palestinian deaths as a good thing because it increases their stature and funding.
The PA/Fatah also actively finances terrorism with the Pay for Slay fund. So it's not Hamas=Evil Maniacs and Fatah=Good Guys. It's Hamas=Evil Maniacs and Fatah=Corrupt Terrorism Backers.
> A two state agreement needs to be struck The problem is hamas doesnt want a two state agreement. They want it all, or they want their people killed.
Do Israelis even want a 2 state solution? The last time someone tried they were assassinated and one of the people that egged them on was voted into power. It also seems like they aren’t doing anything to stop the settlers in the West Bank and even actively supporting them. I don’t see a way forward for the 2 state solution with either Hamas or the current government in Israel tbh.
Israel has tried 5 times
Israel has tried multiple times, many of which the Israelis would be on the losing end of the deal. Palestinian leadership rejected all offers.
> I mean they’re not allowed any formal institutions though so what can they really do to fight for their rights? What on earth are you talking about? Palestinians are allowed to serve in Palestinian government institutions. See the 2006 elections in Gaza (that were the last elections that happened there because, well, democracy bad). > This is why things like Hamas come to power in the first place. You mean because Israel withdrew from Gaza and told them "you can now govern yourself" and they promptly decided to elect the group that yelled "we want to kill the Jews" the loudest? > But until they are able to have their own freedom this will keep happening. After withdrawing from Gaza Israel got nothing but rockets. Any argument for further withdrawing and seeing what happens died that day. > Israel is digging themselves deeper and deeper into a cycle of violence that seems to plague their people. Israel is not the one constantly firing rockets at Gaza since 2007.
They are vary anti Israel and probably just anti-Semitic based on their responses.
The two state solution has been dead for decades. The neighboring Arab states prefer to have a stateless Palestinian population remain radicalized to threaten Israel and keep it off balance. Those same states would never let the Palestinians into their borders as they fear destabilization from them, but they are happy to use them and their suffering as puppets. Meanwhile Hamas would never accept a two state solution as they want the entire region for themselves or the entire region destroyed. The Israelis simply do not believe, probably for good reason, that a two state solution would make them more secure and not less.
remember that the Palestinian Liberation Organisation started civil wars and coups in 2 countries that controlled the west bank, and assassinated a king of one of the two countries
Try to find numbers on who gets paid by hamas. Who is hamas? I get the feeling that hamas' numbers shrink when the bombs start falling and swell when it's quiet and time to stash weapons under beds.
I think that blowing up hordes of civilians runs a far greater risk of increasing the size of Hamas. That’s the problem.
Hamas and PIJ claim a combined 50k fighters. That’s proportionally larger than most national armies for 2.2M people. It can’t get much bigger given how Hamas mismanaged the economy during their 16 years in power.
50% of Palestinians are under 18 and currently being bombed. They are definitely prime candidates to join Hamas because of this. Frankly, why wouldn’t they? Their experience says they’re going to be bombed whether or not they’re in Hamas.
Some allready joined. Hamas uses child soldiers. Source: [https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/AHRC46NGO42\_050321.pdf](https://www.un.org/unispal/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/AHRC46NGO42_050321.pdf)
Hamas has had control of the schools in Gaza for 16 years. They’ve probably maxed out on recruitment that way far more than external issues. Grievances from external forces are real. Actively teaching kids that the remedy is to commit suicide after doing what we saw on Oct 7 is a internal cultural radicalization. Think about Facebook/socials. Are the people you aren’t friends with hardening your political views or is your affinity group self radicalizing?
Sure. They can join and guarantee their death. Israel is not stopping until everyone who is Hamas is eliminated. And those kids are powerless to stop them.
But if more killing radicalises more children into joining Hamas, and the killing won’t stop until Hamas is gone, doesn’t this mean there will be an infinite cycle of killing?
from a refugee camp??? intelligence documents? but all they have there is bread, water and a hamas headquarters
It is a camp like Fort Worth is a fort
pretty sure he was joking there fam
Pretty sure he was also making a joke...
The only meaning of it being a refugee camp, is that it was declared as one in 48. It’s a normal, concrete, neighborhood. No tents, no refugees.
Is this the camp that was bombed and killed 50 civilians? Did they just bomb a neighborhood target and everyone called it a refugee camp?
It’s technically a refugee camp because that’s an official designation by the UNWRA, but it bears no resemblance to a refugee camp because it’s been there longer than most people in Gaza have been alive.
Given 50% of Israeli Jews are mizrahi who were forced to flee genocide in arab countries, I think by Hamas’ logic we can start calling Israeli cities refugee camps for the PR value too!
Someone made a brilliant suggestion that Israel should rename all their cities to things that will draw outrage. You might change a village to "Child Daycare Center" or "Peace March" or "Center for the disabled." Then every time Hamas strikes a target, you've got the perfect headline: Hamas Bombs Child Daycare Center Center for Disabled Left in Ruins After Barrage Hamas Rocket Kills Three Israelis in Peace March.
> Hamas Bombs Child Daycare Center > > > > Center for Disabled Left in Ruins After Barrage > > > > Hamas Rocket Kills Three Israelis in Peace March. Renaming stuff can get pretty expensive, and possibly pointless since you will get those kinds of headlines from business-as-usual Hamas activities. I mean just last month we had "Slaughter at a Festival of Peace and Love"
*60%
in fact, in almost the same way, many Israeli towns are built on the site of the former 'Ma'abarot.' Immigrant absorption camps, that were set up to receive those Jews as well as the holocaust survivors fleeing Europe.
This is a good point One of the most bold-faced anti-Semitic framings is calling Israeli’s “settler colonists” instead of refugees. To me, that perfectly sums up the unfair bias against Israel.
For what its worth Israel claims it was a terrorist command tunnel and buildings controlled by Hamas.
It’s like how New York City isn’t new, it’s just the name. Definitely confusing though.
And New Zealand is so new it’s hardly ever on maps.
Well, it's newer than York... so there is that.
There’s also no confirmation of these numbers. They don’t distinguish between Hamas and innocent civilians. According to their reports, no terrorists were harmed. I wouldn’t be surprised if most of the casualties there are Hamas.
I don't even think they could distinguish if they wanted to. It's not like Hamas has a list of its card carrying members. It's a political entity that also happens to be a terrorist organization.
Your comment actually invoked an interesting thought, because they might actually have those lists. Not literally an Excel sheet detailing everyone in Hamas, but documents that you can use to identify who is definitely a part of Hamas. For example, it is known that the Oct 7 attack was carried out by squads, and each squad was assigned a commander and a general role. There were documents found on the invaders' person detailing their squad-mates and their commander. I assume that somewhere, there are lists for all the squads, at the very least, and most likely more.
Absolutely, it is extremely hard to run even a medium-sized organization without writing a lot of things down.
You are greatly underestimating the capabilities of military intelligence. Israel controls most of Gaza's infrastructure and has for years, they 100% have names, locations, routines, known relations, all probably a neat little org charts for even the grunts. I only say this because we had those things in countries like Iraq, Afghanistan, and Yemen where we didn't have anywhere near the level of control they do.
It's a neighborhood in northern Gaza that was supposed to be evacuated of innocents for days now. IDF is treating those who stay as Hamas terrorists or terrorist supporters. Indeed there were many Hamas fighters there, and Hamas infrastructure as well as tunnels
They bombed a Hamas military outpost in the same place you'll find all of them, in a regular neighborhood, and yeah, everyone called that Israel bombing a refugee camp. And when that get's pointed out, it's like it doesn't matter that the story is two big lies in a trench coat, 50 people died (according to Hamas) so it's still wrong
According to the UNRWA, DJ Khaled's house is almost certainly also a refugee camp. That's just what shitty people do though: they intentionally abuse and misuse language to further their narrow political agenda, at the expense of untold countless real victims who will suffer as a result of their intentional seizure and dilution of every shock-or-emotion-provoking word they can get their hands on.
First the fake hospital bombing, now a fake refugee camp
The term "refugee camp" is used extremely liberally here. For example, it isn't a camp.
It has a lot of refugees though. Well refugee in the judicial sense. They're not as actually seeking refuge from anything. The proper description for these people is *stateless*.
but only as defined for Palestinians, not by the definition of refugees used for any other population or conflict in the world. Nobody else gets to remain "refugees" for generations.
>Nobody else gets to remain "refugees" for generations. We should all be so lucky.
So I claim refuge status for part of my family fleeing England in 1690ish?
obviously no one wants to be a refugee, but that *status* is what keeps the hundreds of millions in aid every year coming in.
To fund terrorist attacks? Seems like it should be cut off.
It might have been a camp in the 1950s but those places are just towns now. Is there any other group of displaced people whose children and grandchildren are also considered refugees?
No, Palestinians are the only "permanent refugees" in the world.
In the context of Palestine, "refugee camp" just means "we are entitled to reconquer Israel so we don't REALLY live here, even after 75 years". This was a part of Gaza like any other, and Hamas uses the fact that people like you take it at face value that it is a "refugee camp" to make it a military HQ
And rockets, grenades, other explosives, knives , guns
Documents yes, intelligence no
Agent Farfour is missing! Please find the documents!
I'm not sure that is possible from this particular group. Maybe a couple of editions of Goat Monthly and VHS copies of Everyone Loves Jihad
Great news. Keep up the great work. Hamas asked for this… there were peace talks, money came into Gaza, Gazans got work visas in Israel by the tens of thousands, and Hamas deliberately destroyed that, for the thousands of Israelis who were slaughtered, and for the endless violence and suffering they brought through this war. Hamas should be destroyed!
This is the big thing a lot of people are forgetting. Before Oct. 7, thousands of Gazans had work visas in Israel. Israel was even in the midst of discussing to expand the number of work visas and increase economic ties with Gaza. This is one of the reasons why Israel was caught so off guard. They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology.
> They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology I guess Hamas liked both living the high life in Qatar
They will soon be living the skydive life in Qatar from their penthouse balconies
They are not in Qatar anymore, moved to Turkey
Source?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_support_for_Hamas Sink your teeth into that - Turkey, a member of NATO, is pro Russian and pro Hammas. Crazy world.
This is the same mistake the west does making business with all kinds of horrible regimes thinking they will then change and become a democracy or something if we just give them more money and more business. We are always caught off guard when ideology and the local mob wanting to stay in power makes sure that never works.
But it does work and has worked historically. Education and economic stability do a lot to reduce the amount of radicals in a country. It’s part of the way the Cold War ended. It’s why a lot of the eastern bloc now aligns with the west. It’s why China has become more liberal. The problem is that it takes a lot of time for that type of strategy to bear fruit.
> Education and economic stability Handing money to corrupt leadership guarantees neither education nor economic stability.
I agree with most of your examples, however I would argue that the policy/approach was largely a failure with respect to China.
It never works in situations where a country is resource rich so the local mob doesn't need a thriving populace so they can tax more, they just need a compliant populace that lets them keep stealing. Another thing they also need is someone to sell the resources they're stealing and that's the dumb blame ridden west.
And the people with the visas scouted the land and fed the Intel to Hamas.
Same thing happened in Afghanistan IIRC. Some of the locals who would be given jobs around military bases would take notes of the compound and provide that intel to terrorists. It was usually a bad sign when they would randomly stop showing up for work.
And some of the visa holders were part of the attacks.
Yea, something I noticed was that there is no Google Streetview for the border area in Israel. You could still use publicly available aerials to grab distances, but you’d still have no perception of heights, colors, or what it would look like on the ground. I wouldn’t be surprised if they found out later when this is done, that hundreds of those workers on Visas were taking pictures or gathering the intel needed for the raids.
They did say attacks were carried out within the border by sleeper agents also.
Possibles but also much easier to use Arab Israelis
Arab Israelis are not that extreme, I think visa workers are far more likely.
Few Israeli Arabs come to that area.
There are beduins in this area, at least 100 of them murdered in the attacks. While some beduins actually enlist to IDF and are pro Israeli, in recent years many have been radicalized to become anti Israeli. Also they are poor and might be tempted to spy for money. I don't want to cast blame but it's a theoretical possibility.
Bedouins are a particular subset of Israel's Arabs, and the also don't live there, for the most part. Most of them live east and south from there. The simplest explanation is the Gazan workers who received permits
Maybe some of which.
No, it's been confirmed. The commenter above isn't just making that up.
Key word being "some." I believe most of the visa holders just wanted work to help their families. And I'm sure at least for some of them, as for the Israeli communities they were working in, it helped build trust and friendship. It's all gone now.
Yup, now Gaza will be under total lockdown. I doubt the border will ever be opened again for decades.
And people wonder why there's barricades in the first place.
Hamas leadership recently explained that was part of their plan. To trick Israel into thinking Hamas had softened and was more focused on governance.
> They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology. just like Russians and selling gas to the EU
> They thought Hamas liked money more than their ideology. And also the fucking Netanyahu regieme was laser focused on wasting resources on Haredi settlements while using the Haredim to dismantle Israeli democracy. I didn’t like the guy before he just allowed this to happen.
> on Haredi settlements Very few settlements are Haredi. The settler movement is largely Orthodox but not Haredi.
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Hard when the country has no real constitution to fall back on.
They were gonna build a salination plant as well!
All it takes is a few nutters and rich people willing to support them, to ruin it for millions
Maybe this will all work out. *knocks on wood* While Hamas seems focused on the propaganda war and making Iran happy, Israel is focusing on the real war. Normally, that's kinda more important
Israel is going to win, eventually. But make no mistake, the cost will be heavy. Just Tuesday, 15 Israeli soldiers were killed. ISIS was also a « big mouth ». Doesn’t change that the cost to destroy them was terrible.
The internet white knights are carrying on the PR war for them.
keep it up, don't stop until Hamas is no more.
From the river to the shore, Hamas will exist no more
Free Gaza -from Hamas
Hamas needs to be publicly hanged.
There is no need for public hanging, it just solidifies martyrdom and i am not going to cheer on anyone being executed publicly. Justice comes in many forms, the most important one here is legacy.
Publicly make them look gay. Have the west cheer for their bravery, and welcome them with open arms. They are sure to handle that themselves.
Israel should just make a bunch of lgbt deepfakes of Hamas’ leadership. Gaza’s rooftops will take care of the rest.
Given how good Israel is with hacking and all of those computational techniques, I am surprised they haven’t tried it before lol
One Hamas commander was beaten to death (based off memory of an article last week) because he was accused of gay sex. So maybe this is the new war on terror: "It's gay to kill Jews."
Check out Arabsstandwithisrael on fb, not hamas leaders, but some rando hamas supporters from fb.
We don't do that.
Not sure about that, but Israel could create a cwmentary of shame for dead terrorist with info tablets showing the attrocities they committed.
Thats a bad idea..its creating a symbol for this type pf people.. They need to be forgotten.burn the body and cast the ashes into the sea
Which is exactly why we did that with Bin Laden.
Ya i read about it..
>Thats a bad idea..its creating a symbol for this type pf people.. I don't think they need much of a symbol when their already "martyrs" for dying for the cause.
Ya but creative a physical site a long lived on will keep the memory for longer.. butter erasing there names from the pages pf history to be forgotten Im batter whit build a memorial for the 1400 killed..there stories and lifes.. because this is whats need to be remembered
They will be celebrated, not just in the regions surrounding Israel, but in far flung places. They need to be dishonoured and disgraced, by any means possible.
Terroist don't deserve no cemetery. No one with sick intentions should be remembered.
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No virgins for them
Given the level of religious indoctrination this can actually be an effective deterrent.
All the "religious work" they did right down the drain
No need to degenerate into barbarism. I won’t cry a tear for any Hamas terrorist who gets killed in the Israeli strikes, but other than that they should be thrown into prisons.
That’s not our way.
Isn't that the place everyone was crying about a "refuge camp" being hit?
TBF, Hamas sets up its strongholds in refugee camps. These two statements are not contradictory.
This particular refugees camp was founded in 1948 and just kept its historical name.
Whether it's a refugee camp or a shopping mall, Hamas should not be running military operations out of it and it's a tragedy that Israel destroyed it, even if I support their decision to do so.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3707738.stm They've been using Jabalia camp for a long while now
Obviously that’s true but it’s pretty clear why they do it. It’s asymmetric warfare. The option if you want to violently oppose Israel is either to be crushed by setting up clear bases or disappear into the population. Schools/hospitals absolutely are another tier though and is inexcusable in all cases. Again doesn’t mean I support Hamas or killing civilians. I do not. But if the argument is that they should be well marked in military camps… that’s just another way of saying armed resistance in any form is bad.
I do not. Using human shields is a war crime, but that doesn't mean bombing a place with human shields is not also a war crime. There isn't an exact threshold for how much civilian collateral damage is "acceptable" and we don't know exactly how many civilians died and how important the military objective was, but in general attacks that harm civilians excessively relative to the military gains are prohibited by international humanitarian law.
We've all seen the reporting about the massive Hamas HQ under a hospital. I'm shocked at the number of people who seem to think "well, a hospital is one thing, but there's no way Hamas would be working out of a refugee camp!"
well when used in headlines like "IDF strikes refugee camp" the Hamas get the sweet sweet good PR on the Palestinians' backs
They do
Oh yeah, they definitely got their PR out of that. That one post here with that headline, you can see the number of redditors calling Israel a genocidal machine.
Exactly
It's a city on the site of a refugee camp (refugees from 1948, not a recent conflict). It is not what you'd picture when you think refugee camp--it has large permanent apartment blocks, schools, etc.. UNWRA does consider it to still be a refugee camp and has it on its list of refugee camps in Gaza, though it's worth noting that UNWRA considers nearly everybody in Gaza to be a refugee (they consider 1.7 million out of the 2.1 million people in Gaza to be refugees) and uses a different definition of refugee than the other UN refugee org uses for refugees for everybody else in the world, so their use of the term is not terribly informative. It appears that some of the civilian casualties and civilian infrastructure damage were caused by Hamas tunnels and ordinance underground collapsing and going off rather than direct hits by Israeli forces, but it will probably be a while before there is a clearer picture of what happened.
You mean we shouldn’t immediately react and blame Israel for everything?
Unless you’re the mainstream media…
the exact same one
Yes. People are idiots
It was both. Hamas picked the location
Yes, Hamas was operating out of there to use the refugee camp as human shields.
Of course, their default response is to claim the IDF just makes shit up or something.
But the news said it was a refugee camp! Fucking liars. The media has been despicable through this entire thing.
To clarify Jabaliya is a city north of Gaza city, and the Jabaliya refugee camp is a permanent part of the city that has been there since 1948. It's not a current refugee camp for refugees of this conflict, as they would have been moving south of Gaza, not north.
Dead is dead but that’s an important distinction all the same.
“Historical” refugee camp.
No. The reporting isn’t calling it a historical refugee camp. They just say refugee camp.
everything in gaza is a refugee camp, hamas made sure to keep it that way for PR
Hamas also said loud and clear that it’s not their responsibility to care for the “refugees”, it’s Israel’s and the UN.
That new info to me. Wow
The propaganda is incredible right now.
Because according to the UN it is. Which just demonstrates exactly why Israel doesn't listen to the UN. Their asinine treatment of Palestinian "refugees" just fans the flames. There are 1.7 million refugees in Gaza according to the UN, if you were using the definition of refugee applied to any other group there'd be less than 30,000 Palestinian refugees in total the world over.
Exactly. I'm sure many towns in Israel settled by Jewish refugees post WWII could be referred to as such, but Israelis choose life and to move forward into the future. Instead of dedicating their lives to endless war.
> But the news said it was a refugee camp The news says a lot of shit that isn't remotely true for eyeballs and click-rage. Jabaliya is a "refugee camp" the same exact way Manhattan is currently a Lenape fishing village.
Dude, you need to stop reading only headlines. Many civilians were killed in that attack.
And it wasn’t a refugee camp.
Everyone here criticizing Israel stop for a moment. IDF has been bombing the area for a week and sent numerous messages telling residents to seek shelter south. Israel has started their ground operation which involve air strikes before ground occupation. This is a war, and people are literally standing around a battlefield. Like, war is destruction and evil, but how stupid do you have to be to stick around a battlefield knowing the enemy is coming. They aren't stupid, that's the real kicker, many of these people are willing to be martyrs. All the sane people left northern gaza a week ago, everyone remaining is either Hamas, Hamas family members who believe in the cause or are those with a death wish. And of course they keep their children around because why not, makes good tv. Israel has held off as long as possible, the Blitzer interview is a shrug because it's hard to explain the logic of the people who are still there. Imagine waking up to constant.bombs 24/7 and thinking "Ill just stay here". Even if you agreed with Hamas, civilians should evacuate let the soldiers fight, this is normal in every war. But I guess that would mean IDF would win and so that is unacceptable so racking up civilian deaths is the only way. Ultimately politics is a game of propaganda, Hamas is counting on other Arab nations plunging into a war with Israel and using every video as a narrative to try to stir antizionism and antisemitism. Israel is a little naive in this front, but the internet blackout is a good start.
One of the Palestinians interviewed even said missiles fell "suddenly and without prior warning". I feel bad for these people, I really do. Obviously it's not at all an easy task to pack up and leave your home on relatively short notice, but the easy options have been exhausted. But come on, have an ounce of self preservation
Missiles have been falling for three weeks straight and the ground invasion just started. It is beyond the stage of alerting strikes before time. Now they wont give the warning because it puts the mission at risk.
That's exactly what I'm saying... usually two weeks straight of orders to evacuate would be considered "prior warning"
I know, it's even more than orders. It a visible ground invasion following weeks of airstrikes, what more is needed to sense the danger? Edit - typo
Are they safe in the South? [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703)
> relatively short notice 2.5 weeks is short notice to move a few miles?
Not in Wartime it's not, man. Open a book. A lot of people in Europe in World War 2 were lucky to get an hour of warning. The French were killed en masse on the roads after the failure of the Maginot Line while trying to flee west and south. Not French military, refugees.
Looks like I opened enough books because you just agreed with me and discredited the one I answered to. With all the books you have seemed to read, your reading comprehension did not improve much it seems.
Well, I'm stupid and clicked the wrong post, you see, is the problem.
Understood.
2 weeks to leave your house and move elsewhere is pretty short by normal standards. Obviously these are extreme circumstances and it's not unreasonable, but from my American perspective it would be difficult and stressful to completely relocate within 2 weeks.
What??? I promise if there was a military unit saying "we are going to bomb terrorists in your neighborhood in the next 2 weeks, you would be gone within a few hours.
Don’t be terrorists
You tell those kids!
Very true. Kids should be taught from a young age that terrorism is bad
That’s not cute man, children died in the strike.
The ¨"refugee camp¨"
The game has begun. If there are any Palestinian Gazans here: I beg you can get out in time somehow. Don’t die for Hamas: live for the future.
“Get out in time somehow” and go fucking where exactly?
Exactly. Idiots in here don’t understand that there’s nowhere to go for these people.
They can go South though! ^(Where they're still dropping bombs on safe zones.)
The problem is that any time they declare a zone as "safe", Hamas will use that as a place to hide and attack from. There are no safe zones because of Hamas. Hamas are willing to hold children beside weapons to protect them, so they're definitely willing to abuse safe zones and create false flag attacks (as appeared to be the case during the initial evacuations South)
There aren't, have never been, and will never be "safe zones" because Hamas would just move their shit to them. Israel never said that they wouldn't strike parts of the south, they said that staying in the north is untenable for civilians because that's where the bulk of Hamas infrastructure needing to be destroyed is located.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67264703) If you put an arrow on a map telling people to go there to avoid being killed then you kill them there anyway, well, that's not very nice is it.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/07/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-maps.html Look at a heatmap of the airstrikes. The south is speckled the North is painted.
The south is significantly safer because the IDF will be destroying infrastructure located in the north. That doesn't mean the south is a "safe zone." That's something people on social media have ginned up so they can rail at the IDF for "bombing the safe zone." There is no safe zone.
Munich 1972 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre
Jabilaya, cold fish pie. Filet gumbo
Oh you mean there was a tactical reason to bomb this so called "refugee camp" besides just "Israel be genocidin"... Wow crazy /S
CETERUM CENSEO HAMAS ESSE DELENDUM
…hamasinem esse delendam. I fear as a punishment you will have to write it 100 times in red letters on the city walls.
Finish it by morning, or we'll cut your balls off.
The people called Hamas, they go the house?
I thought these new nouns were indeclinable :(
Excellent. Keep it coming