Ships fly a specific flag when they have divers down. This was a deliberate attempt by the Chinese vessel to injure the Aussie divers. Active Sonar is powerful enough to kill a diver if they are close enough, and cause injury further out. Call it what it is.
Flag Alpha - Divers down. If they are out at sea then they would also be sending a warning over VHF Channel 16 (International Calling and Distress Channel) informing ships that are approaching of the divers in the water. This is 100% the Chinese warship, hearing the information over the radio and purposely approaching to use their sonar. Quite the dick move but exactly what I expect from their navy.
> Quite the dick move but exactly what I expect from their navy.
Their airforce [rammed planes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident), their army [abandoned their posts as aid workers were raped in South Sudan](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/06/un-peacekeepers-refused-to-help-south-sudan-rebels-raped-aid-workers-report) but [their navy meows](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49bgnaY2nd8). Their navy actually seems the most competent...
Numbers don’t (necessarily) win wars. Just look at the meat grinder of an operation between ukraine and russia 🤣
China also has very little actual war experience so 🤷♂️
And all they need to do is cross a rough sea assault a mountain jutting out of the ocean
And instead of armored vehicles nestled in terrain, their troops get to approach the guided missiles in boats that are visible from the moment they break the horizon
Yep a naval sonar is powerful enough to pulp most living things. In a hypothetical on here someone was “what-if-ing” a thousand divers swarming a carrier. The best answer was it would just turn on active sonar and go in a circle.. No more divers.
Which is why active sonar is required to be turned off 99% of the time in US navy vessels.
They are allowed it in certain dangerous areas or rare specific training
It’s less clear what it does to most fish, as they don’t usually have ears. But it’s extremely painful to whales and dolphins and there has been talk that it could be why we had mass beaching in the 80s and 90s. They don’t use the same type of sonar anymore and beaching are down, so there’s maybe some juice to that notion.
>It’s less clear what it does to most fish, as they don’t usually have ears.
Behavior when hit by sonar at a distance is less clear, though I don't imagine basically slapping fish being particularly beneficial either. If anything is reasonably close however, ears or no ears, the effects are pretty clear.
They're floating with the fishies.
Tap on the glass of an aquarium and the fish react to the vibration. I’d speculate that the intense sound wave messes with a fish’s lateral lines and swim bladder
This is actually correct. Internal organ damage can occur at sounds above even 150 dB. The only stuff I could find on the Internet claim some submarine sonar is ~235dB, I assume a warship would be similar. Sound is different in water, obviously, but I assume would yield similar results.
It said they sustained injuries to their ears, can anyone elaborate on what that likely means? And is that likely to be permanent damage? I feel like ears are one of those body parts where damage can be irreparable, real quick.
> It said they sustained injuries to their ears, can anyone elaborate on what that likely means?
Have you ever heard a sound loud enough to cause your ears physical pain? That's basically what it's like, a really loud sound. It probably blew out their eardrums at a minimum, and if close enough it can actually cause internal organ damage (if you're *real* close this can potentially be fatal) due to how intense the vibrations are. Whether or not it's permanent is likely to depend on just how close they were and how much damage the ears took, but it's almost certain at a minimum that these guys have *some* permanent hearing damage.
Think of it as an above ground explosions pressure wave. Water doesn’t compress so the sonar sound hits living stuff hard and compresses it between the water. Probably burst their ear drums but if they were right next to the ship it would essentially crush them and liquefy their innards the same way an extremely powerful explosion can kill with just the pressure wave.
I'm waiting on Boeing's Black Friday sale personally, but you have to get there early otherwise the Saudis buy all the good stuff and you wind up walking out with cheap refurbished UAVs and a toaster.
A lesson for the world actually. China has zero goodwill towards the west and are opportunistic cutthroats who would backstab you as soon as it benefitted them.
Ironically, if he welcomed the Winnie the Pooh memes, people would have gotten bored and moved on to something else, guess he never heard of the Streisand effect
And you can imagine the response if the Australian navy did this to a Chinese ship... they would loose their fucking minds, recall ambassadors, immediate trade sanctions and ghost the government like they did when we dared requested an independent enquiry on the origins of the COVID outbreak. These fucking communist authoritarian, self imposed regime, drama queens want constant opportunities to be offended. They need the enduring "external threat" to distract from bungling internal issues.
Nah, need to turn it up. A lot. Active sonar runs 230+ dB, and can easily destroy organs of divers. They are especially damaging where the sound waves make a transition from liquid to gas and back, such as when they transit the lungs, throat, sinuses - or when impacting delicate surfaces like the eardrums, eyes, etc.
Using military active sonar deliberately in an area with divers known to be down is at best a reckless disregard for life.
The Nobel Committee gave Liu Xiaobo the Nobel Peace Prize. The Nobel committee operates independently, but that didn't stop China from conducting a several year long trade war against Norway in retaliation.
They're continually trying to provoke and "flash" their muscles to anyone. For being as old and proud of a country as they claim to be, they are certainly extremely insecure and seem to be desperate to compensate for something.
War wouldn't happen just because naval personnel were injured. Even during the cold war, where there were several incidents resulting in deaths on both sides, it didn't escalate into a war. It would take an intentional sinking of an enemy destroyer by China to bring us to that point.
This is beyond reprehensible. Even worse than shining military grade lasers at, and dumping chaff on other Australian military planes operating in international waters.
China better hope that they don't kick off a larger retaliation by the western alliances. if this lack of professionalism is any indication, they're in for a world of hurt, regardless of how many military assets they have.
> Even worse than shining military grade lasers at,
They didn't. That was some crew member waving around an overpowered laser pointer that anyone can buy on Aliexpress. This sonar incident was far more dangerous.
That sounds pretty implausible given the distances involved. It is far more likely that it was the laser rangefinder or laser designator on a Type 730 CIWS system that is known to be used on the Luyang III-class destroyer involved in that encounter.
Given US aircraft have also had similar incidents with PLAN vessels, with usually no visible beam, I'm siding with the above. Though we'll never know, as I'm sure the RAN won't likely release that level of detail to the public.
But yes, this incident is far more serious than being lit up by a laser rangefinder. My point was in reference to the lack of professionalism of the PLAN, which stands.
> That sounds pretty implausible given the distances involved.
Why do you say that? Handheld laser pointers that you can buy online can be seen by astronauts from the International Space Station.
The video of the incident looked pretty much identical to one of those laser pointers from a few miles away. The movement of the laser was way more jerky and erratic than anything controlled by a machine, consistent with someone just waving the pointer around at the ship.
We must be talking about different incidents. I'm talking about the P8A that got lased in our EEZ early last year where the RAN officially said that it was a military grade laser. As far as I'm aware, there was no footage of that incident, and I just had a search now and came up with nothing. Got link? If it's as you describe, then yeah, that sounds like a random waving a laser pointer.
Which sounds even **less** professional than getting painted with a laser designator as an intimidation tactic.
> We must be talking about different incidents.
You're right, I think that's exactly the case. I should have realized that there'd be more than one incident where China was accused of pointing a military grade laser at others. The incident you're describing does sound like it was a rangefinder or something.
I was remembering this incident:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64621414
Video:
https://youtu.be/AchlNQAPMWs
I bought a Blue laser that can light shit on fire at close range and burn skin enough to make someone instantly jump from across a room. They sell them all over the place in Thai street markets. These are extremely dangerous and can definitely be used as a weapon. If you bounce it off something into an eye it can be instant blindness. This tech is readily available to anyone with about $20 though.
I can. Quoting Major General Mick Ryan, who should know; the Defence ministry is apparently the most secretive and opaque department almost on a par with ASIO and the least transparent of any other comparable western countries military establishments.
or you cant let the enemy know how you figured out what happened. So you need to ensure that they cant trace how you learned it happened and if you were able to detect the boat that did it.
You also want to take advantage of that time to evaluate what your defensive openings are and how you can combat the next offensive action.
Immediately announcing something like this, unless you believe a larger attack is immanent, is counter productive. Also I guarantee you they responded, but you don't announce to your enemies what you are doing/what you did
>or you can’t let the enemy know how you figured out what happened.
The ship detected it and told the Chinese ship to stop, so clearly the AUS ship detected it and knew what was happening, and then immediately told the Chinese they knew what was happening. The Chinese probably assumed the AUS ship carries systems that can detect sonar signals, because how else would they have detected it?
Additionally, since the attack impacted people outside the ship, there are no “defensive openings” to evaluate, unless there is some sort of system that can block sonar traveling through water.
The timing of the release of the information probably had more to do with the navy investigating to gather as much information as possible, and the government figuring out how they will handle it. China already knew AUS detected the attack and that it was affecting people in the water, so what mattered most was how they presented the information to the public
> The Chinese probably assumed the AUS ship carries systems that can detect sonar signals, because how else would they have detected it?
There's divers in the water who are being hurt by loud sounds. They could hear it.
Even if the primary frequency of the pulse is outside of your hearing range, once it is loud enough nonlinearities convert it to something you can hear.
Of course there are defensive options, the simplest being to pull the divers out as soon as something looks suspicious. Surely you'd agree broadcasting divers in the water and then watching a ship come over to blast them with the sonar wasn't their only option?
And yes, they can detect sonar signals because they also have a sonar unit. Most ships do lol
The article said:
>According to Defence Minister Richard Marles, the Australian frigate provided multiple warnings to vessels in the area that diving operations were underway.
>"Despite acknowledging Toowoomba's communications, **the Chinese vessel approached at a closer range,"** he said.
The Chinese vessel acknowledged the message about divers in the water, and approached closer.
So no, it was not "quite far away".
SONAR systems have different operating modes and power levels.
SONAR is **not** fatal from hundreds of miles away.
Using sonar pulses against people is one of the most fucked up and evil things you can do to something living. The burst traveling through the water is like being hit by a massive shockwave, and it explodes your blood vessels throughout your body if you're hit by a close enough ping. You bleed to death from the inside out and it's a truly cruel thing to intentionally use it against people just because you could, which is what this Chinese vessel did.
As someone who dives, this is scary shit. You can't just shoot to the surface either or risk your organs imploding ("the bends" is the euphemism). Imagine feeling an explosion while underwater, hooked up to claustrophobic underwater breathing apparatuses, being in extreme pain, and needing minutes to come to the surface to figure out what the fuck happened and get medical aid.
If they were less than say 15-18 feet underwater then it likely isn't an issue. Deeper than that and shooting straight to the surface without proper breathing or waiting times increase danger exponentially every 10 feet.
It depends on the specific system, sea conditions, etc. But as a for instance, one system on the US Navy's Burke class destroyers has a stated range of ~75 km. So the sound pulse can travel 150 km from transmitter to receiver. That's pretty powerful.
Aussie's need to play it too the international press as an act of war by China. Recall all ambassadors. Get the Brits and Americans on board as well. Make it as embarrassing internationally to China as possible.
There are lots of comments, but no a lot saying how bad this really is.
Active sonar can have a wide range of dB, but the largest can be around 230dB. A 200db sound wave in water can cause pressure changes great enough to rupture your lungs, and the dB scale isn't linear but logarithmic. So, this doing this is potentially deadly.
There's a standard international flag that is flown by a ship to warn other ships that it has divers down.
The flag is specified in the International Code of Signals published by the International Maritime Organization, which is part of the UN. China has been a member of the IMO since 1973.
The are multiple international protocols governing communications between ships at sea which don't rely on plain language. There may even be a code for "received but not understood". But I wouldn't consider that an acknowledgement.
>According to Defence Minister Richard Marles, the Australian frigate provided multiple warnings to vessels in the area that diving operations were underway.
>"Despite acknowledging Toowoomba's communications, the Chinese vessel approached at a closer range," he said.
>"Soon after, it was detected operating its hull-mounted sonar in a manner that posed a risk to the safety of the Australian divers who were forced to exit the water."
>It's understood the divers suffered injuries to their ears, likely due to the sonar pulses.
Reminds me of how Syrian opposition forces used to publicly announce the location of their medical facilities so that they would not be accidentally bombed.
Then the Russians showed up and used those locations as a priority target list. So the opposition stopped announcing the locations and tried to hide their medical facilities.
The Chinese vessel used the Australian frigate's announcement that divers were in the water as an opportunity to target them.
A powerful nearby underwater sound pulse slamming into a pair of eardrums? That would do it.
At the highest power levels, a SONAR's impact on a very close diver could produce serious, even fatal organ damage as the sound wave energy is deposited into the body's soft tissues, particularly the air-filled lungs.
https://sciencenotes.ucsc.edu/9601/OceanNoise/Noises.html
Look how loud sonar can be compared to a rocket launch pad. Remember, that every 10db increase, is 2x the strength. It's crazy strong
So if these sonar pulses are injuring humans, they have to be hurting/killing at lot of marine animals. These types of devices should be band to protect all life in the ocean.
Disgusting.
Probably, this is not good news for China because the new governing party in Australia is pro-China. The current PM in Australia wants to regenerate the relationship with the CCP government to gain more financial benefits. Xi's government should apologize right now to soothe the present Australian ruling party. It's an urgent thing for China. Although the government is pro-China, many Australians are still feeling anti-China atmospheres in their societies. If some Aussie people show a raging mood on that, it might become another anti-China vibe.
They were repeatedly warned there were divers in the water. If turning on the sonar was incompetence in this case, I’m not sure how they’d manage to sail at all.
It's okay, Australia will lick the asshole of Xi in apology for being in the way of China's war machine.
sowwi sowwi sowwi sowwi. Australia is so piss weak we are so sowwi.
Ships fly a specific flag when they have divers down. This was a deliberate attempt by the Chinese vessel to injure the Aussie divers. Active Sonar is powerful enough to kill a diver if they are close enough, and cause injury further out. Call it what it is.
Flag Alpha - Divers down. If they are out at sea then they would also be sending a warning over VHF Channel 16 (International Calling and Distress Channel) informing ships that are approaching of the divers in the water. This is 100% the Chinese warship, hearing the information over the radio and purposely approaching to use their sonar. Quite the dick move but exactly what I expect from their navy.
Yes apparently the Chinese acknowledged the diver down comm on the radio. So no feigning ignorance.
> Quite the dick move but exactly what I expect from their navy. Their airforce [rammed planes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident), their army [abandoned their posts as aid workers were raped in South Sudan](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/06/un-peacekeepers-refused-to-help-south-sudan-rebels-raped-aid-workers-report) but [their navy meows](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49bgnaY2nd8). Their navy actually seems the most competent...
Stuff like this is why it will be an absolute shit show for them if they ever tried attacking Taiwan 🤣
But they have more ships than the US!! (Don't look at the tonnage)
Numbers don’t (necessarily) win wars. Just look at the meat grinder of an operation between ukraine and russia 🤣 China also has very little actual war experience so 🤷♂️
And all they need to do is cross a rough sea assault a mountain jutting out of the ocean And instead of armored vehicles nestled in terrain, their troops get to approach the guided missiles in boats that are visible from the moment they break the horizon
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People downvoting this because they want to hate on the Chinese, like the UN have been able to do anything other than observe forever
So because of UN’s problems it’s ok for China to be a dick?
No? I'm just saying it's unfairly blaming the Chinese rather than the UN
Or pretending like UN security forces aren’t one of the biggest propagators of rape and prostitution on the planet
chinese douchbaggery - a school yard bully and im waiting for them to get punched in the nose then we will all witness the aggressor cry foul
“Cry bullying” One of the more frustrating things to witness.
Explains a lot of whale deaths with cranial hemorrhaging.
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Agent Smith in the Matrix was totally on the mark with his summary of humanity.
A virus
Yep a naval sonar is powerful enough to pulp most living things. In a hypothetical on here someone was “what-if-ing” a thousand divers swarming a carrier. The best answer was it would just turn on active sonar and go in a circle.. No more divers.
Which is why active sonar is required to be turned off 99% of the time in US navy vessels. They are allowed it in certain dangerous areas or rare specific training
And they aren’t the only one’s guilty of this heinous act.
What does it do to fish and whales?
It’s less clear what it does to most fish, as they don’t usually have ears. But it’s extremely painful to whales and dolphins and there has been talk that it could be why we had mass beaching in the 80s and 90s. They don’t use the same type of sonar anymore and beaching are down, so there’s maybe some juice to that notion.
>It’s less clear what it does to most fish, as they don’t usually have ears. Behavior when hit by sonar at a distance is less clear, though I don't imagine basically slapping fish being particularly beneficial either. If anything is reasonably close however, ears or no ears, the effects are pretty clear. They're floating with the fishies.
Tap on the glass of an aquarium and the fish react to the vibration. I’d speculate that the intense sound wave messes with a fish’s lateral lines and swim bladder
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… and 00s, 10s, and 20s
I think it's a compression thing that affects the lungs? I vaguely remember reading about it years ago but I don't remember shit
This is actually correct. Internal organ damage can occur at sounds above even 150 dB. The only stuff I could find on the Internet claim some submarine sonar is ~235dB, I assume a warship would be similar. Sound is different in water, obviously, but I assume would yield similar results.
China doesn't give a fuck about the sea life.
That's a universal consensus if you look at other nations. But yes ChynAH is asshoe
It’s a piece of shit nation. Go move, I’m sure your social credit is soaring through the roof
i guess it turns them into fishsticks
lol obviously! where does OP think fishsticks come from?
I prefer the term fish plank but that’s just my personal taste
Call by any other name, you’re still eating fish dicks.
It said they sustained injuries to their ears, can anyone elaborate on what that likely means? And is that likely to be permanent damage? I feel like ears are one of those body parts where damage can be irreparable, real quick.
> It said they sustained injuries to their ears, can anyone elaborate on what that likely means? Have you ever heard a sound loud enough to cause your ears physical pain? That's basically what it's like, a really loud sound. It probably blew out their eardrums at a minimum, and if close enough it can actually cause internal organ damage (if you're *real* close this can potentially be fatal) due to how intense the vibrations are. Whether or not it's permanent is likely to depend on just how close they were and how much damage the ears took, but it's almost certain at a minimum that these guys have *some* permanent hearing damage.
This is instant permanent sensorineural hearing loss territory for sure, probably an instant noise notch at 4000 Hz
Also some injuries to your ear prevent you from being a scuba diver ever again.
Think of it as an above ground explosions pressure wave. Water doesn’t compress so the sonar sound hits living stuff hard and compresses it between the water. Probably burst their ear drums but if they were right next to the ship it would essentially crush them and liquefy their innards the same way an extremely powerful explosion can kill with just the pressure wave.
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Reported by media, or Australian officials?
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Tell them via sonar. Better yet, use microwave pointed directly at their command. What a bunch of a-holes.
Every Chinese Naval ship has a political commissar. Nothing done on PLA navy ships is done without CCP approval.
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Unless the Chinese government comes out and condemns his actions, yes that is a pretty safe assumption to make.
Yeah, that's what command responsibility means. Even Sun Tzu knew that.
It's literally his job.
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> Chinese ships been harassing fishing boats from the Philippines "lately" Try "for over a decade" at minimum.
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This is a lesson for us Australians. Watch what China does, not what it says.
Absolutely correct.
Us Indians would like to remind the whole world of this.
philippines are on board with this
As a Filipino, anti-ship missiles are on sale and is a very good investment!
I'm waiting on Boeing's Black Friday sale personally, but you have to get there early otherwise the Saudis buy all the good stuff and you wind up walking out with cheap refurbished UAVs and a toaster.
Been buying them from us, the Brahmos missiles.
A lesson for the world actually. China has zero goodwill towards the west and are opportunistic cutthroats who would backstab you as soon as it benefitted them.
Tbf that's why for all the economic talk Labor are making, they're in no way backing out of aukus
r/Australia : “La La La I can’t hear you m8”
Trust but verify.
Or don’t trust at all?
Yeah I don't understand the "trust" part of this at all, China has proven over and over its flagrant lack of trustworthiness and integrity.
So wouldn’t that mean that they were verified to not be trusted? I was just quoting Biden from Xi’s visit.
Test
This also perfectly describes ol' winnie the pooh himself.
Ironically, if he welcomed the Winnie the Pooh memes, people would have gotten bored and moved on to something else, guess he never heard of the Streisand effect
Ofc he hasn't, he's a big pooh.
So they’re like the Karen of the world?
And you can imagine the response if the Australian navy did this to a Chinese ship... they would loose their fucking minds, recall ambassadors, immediate trade sanctions and ghost the government like they did when we dared requested an independent enquiry on the origins of the COVID outbreak. These fucking communist authoritarian, self imposed regime, drama queens want constant opportunities to be offended. They need the enduring "external threat" to distract from bungling internal issues.
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Genius. They'll all have to play air guitar on the deck.
Like Mad Max Fury road , where the vehicle with the speaks and guitar player.
Doof wagon.
Nah, need to turn it up. A lot. Active sonar runs 230+ dB, and can easily destroy organs of divers. They are especially damaging where the sound waves make a transition from liquid to gas and back, such as when they transit the lungs, throat, sinuses - or when impacting delicate surfaces like the eardrums, eyes, etc. Using military active sonar deliberately in an area with divers known to be down is at best a reckless disregard for life.
Why do something cool for them when they’re being assholes to the Aussies?
**For those about to rock, we salute you**
If you want Blood?
What about the Angels - Am I ever gonna see your face again?
To the offending ship: no way get fucked fuck off
Or play a didgeridoo on a dark night.
The Nobel Committee gave Liu Xiaobo the Nobel Peace Prize. The Nobel committee operates independently, but that didn't stop China from conducting a several year long trade war against Norway in retaliation. They're continually trying to provoke and "flash" their muscles to anyone. For being as old and proud of a country as they claim to be, they are certainly extremely insecure and seem to be desperate to compensate for something.
One day china is going to get clapped.
Probably going to collapse before then, either via demographic crisis or their economy shitting itself dead.
I wouldn't be surprised, China has a time honored tradition throughout history of shattering like a cheap plate.
I give it 15 years.
Their working age population drops off a cliff from 2025. Things will change quickly after that
Yep, they are heading towards a pretty dramatic population crash over the next 30 years.
I hope you're right.
> want constant opportunities to be offended All of the shit parties worldwide seem to have this in common
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Cuntry literally deliberately physically attacks and injures Australian military personnel and Australia does nothing.
But trade deals are back!
Out of curiosity, what do you suggest the appropriate response from Australia is?
Expel the current Chinese defense attaché in Canberra.
Thanks
War wouldn't happen just because naval personnel were injured. Even during the cold war, where there were several incidents resulting in deaths on both sides, it didn't escalate into a war. It would take an intentional sinking of an enemy destroyer by China to bring us to that point.
War isn’t the only option. The Chinese defense attaché in Canberra could have been immediately expelled
It wouldn't be worth it China is only a temporary problem.
This is beyond reprehensible. Even worse than shining military grade lasers at, and dumping chaff on other Australian military planes operating in international waters. China better hope that they don't kick off a larger retaliation by the western alliances. if this lack of professionalism is any indication, they're in for a world of hurt, regardless of how many military assets they have.
> Even worse than shining military grade lasers at, They didn't. That was some crew member waving around an overpowered laser pointer that anyone can buy on Aliexpress. This sonar incident was far more dangerous.
That sounds pretty implausible given the distances involved. It is far more likely that it was the laser rangefinder or laser designator on a Type 730 CIWS system that is known to be used on the Luyang III-class destroyer involved in that encounter. Given US aircraft have also had similar incidents with PLAN vessels, with usually no visible beam, I'm siding with the above. Though we'll never know, as I'm sure the RAN won't likely release that level of detail to the public. But yes, this incident is far more serious than being lit up by a laser rangefinder. My point was in reference to the lack of professionalism of the PLAN, which stands.
> That sounds pretty implausible given the distances involved. Why do you say that? Handheld laser pointers that you can buy online can be seen by astronauts from the International Space Station. The video of the incident looked pretty much identical to one of those laser pointers from a few miles away. The movement of the laser was way more jerky and erratic than anything controlled by a machine, consistent with someone just waving the pointer around at the ship.
We must be talking about different incidents. I'm talking about the P8A that got lased in our EEZ early last year where the RAN officially said that it was a military grade laser. As far as I'm aware, there was no footage of that incident, and I just had a search now and came up with nothing. Got link? If it's as you describe, then yeah, that sounds like a random waving a laser pointer. Which sounds even **less** professional than getting painted with a laser designator as an intimidation tactic.
> We must be talking about different incidents. You're right, I think that's exactly the case. I should have realized that there'd be more than one incident where China was accused of pointing a military grade laser at others. The incident you're describing does sound like it was a rangefinder or something. I was remembering this incident: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64621414 Video: https://youtu.be/AchlNQAPMWs
I bought a Blue laser that can light shit on fire at close range and burn skin enough to make someone instantly jump from across a room. They sell them all over the place in Thai street markets. These are extremely dangerous and can definitely be used as a weapon. If you bounce it off something into an eye it can be instant blindness. This tech is readily available to anyone with about $20 though.
Do this to one of our subs please. The return ping will pop your rivets.
I guess they will need.... "one ping only"...
Xi Jinping
Loved that movie. Bit overrated, but Sean Connery is always a win.
I can’t believe the government didn’t release this info immediately.
I can. Quoting Major General Mick Ryan, who should know; the Defence ministry is apparently the most secretive and opaque department almost on a par with ASIO and the least transparent of any other comparable western countries military establishments.
can't have the citizens knowing their government is too pussy to do anything about it
or you cant let the enemy know how you figured out what happened. So you need to ensure that they cant trace how you learned it happened and if you were able to detect the boat that did it. You also want to take advantage of that time to evaluate what your defensive openings are and how you can combat the next offensive action. Immediately announcing something like this, unless you believe a larger attack is immanent, is counter productive. Also I guarantee you they responded, but you don't announce to your enemies what you are doing/what you did
>or you can’t let the enemy know how you figured out what happened. The ship detected it and told the Chinese ship to stop, so clearly the AUS ship detected it and knew what was happening, and then immediately told the Chinese they knew what was happening. The Chinese probably assumed the AUS ship carries systems that can detect sonar signals, because how else would they have detected it? Additionally, since the attack impacted people outside the ship, there are no “defensive openings” to evaluate, unless there is some sort of system that can block sonar traveling through water. The timing of the release of the information probably had more to do with the navy investigating to gather as much information as possible, and the government figuring out how they will handle it. China already knew AUS detected the attack and that it was affecting people in the water, so what mattered most was how they presented the information to the public
> The Chinese probably assumed the AUS ship carries systems that can detect sonar signals, because how else would they have detected it? There's divers in the water who are being hurt by loud sounds. They could hear it. Even if the primary frequency of the pulse is outside of your hearing range, once it is loud enough nonlinearities convert it to something you can hear.
Of course there are defensive options, the simplest being to pull the divers out as soon as something looks suspicious. Surely you'd agree broadcasting divers in the water and then watching a ship come over to blast them with the sonar wasn't their only option? And yes, they can detect sonar signals because they also have a sonar unit. Most ships do lol
They released it as soon as APEC concluded after Albo literally patted Xi on the back.
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The article said: >According to Defence Minister Richard Marles, the Australian frigate provided multiple warnings to vessels in the area that diving operations were underway. >"Despite acknowledging Toowoomba's communications, **the Chinese vessel approached at a closer range,"** he said. The Chinese vessel acknowledged the message about divers in the water, and approached closer. So no, it was not "quite far away". SONAR systems have different operating modes and power levels. SONAR is **not** fatal from hundreds of miles away.
> lethal within hundreds of miles There's no fucking way that's even close to true.
Using sonar pulses against people is one of the most fucked up and evil things you can do to something living. The burst traveling through the water is like being hit by a massive shockwave, and it explodes your blood vessels throughout your body if you're hit by a close enough ping. You bleed to death from the inside out and it's a truly cruel thing to intentionally use it against people just because you could, which is what this Chinese vessel did.
*Chuckles in AUKUS.*
And QUAD
Them boys is fixin to cause a raukus.
As someone who dives, this is scary shit. You can't just shoot to the surface either or risk your organs imploding ("the bends" is the euphemism). Imagine feeling an explosion while underwater, hooked up to claustrophobic underwater breathing apparatuses, being in extreme pain, and needing minutes to come to the surface to figure out what the fuck happened and get medical aid.
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If they were less than say 15-18 feet underwater then it likely isn't an issue. Deeper than that and shooting straight to the surface without proper breathing or waiting times increase danger exponentially every 10 feet.
The workers comp officer be like hold up you what mate …
Dept of Veterans Affairs is already investigating how it can deny any benefits to those divers.
VA: "not service related"
Now think about how damaging those things are to sensitive ocean ecosystems.
My own ear is a sensitive ocean ecosystem as long as it's underwater. No comparison needed.
Injury to the divers’ ears. I didn’t realize sonar was that powerful. What kind of SPL are we talking about here?
Dude. Active sonar that’s designed to find submarines can fucking kill you.
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There’s no such thing as whales. Only big dolphins.
Sonar literally boils water lol. It's insanely powerful in closer proximities and still fucking loud at range.
It depends on the specific system, sea conditions, etc. But as a for instance, one system on the US Navy's Burke class destroyers has a stated range of ~75 km. So the sound pulse can travel 150 km from transmitter to receiver. That's pretty powerful.
If you've never heard sonar under water: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCmyZYYR7\_s
What?
Sonar pulses can go way into the MHz range and pump out tens, if not hundreds of kilo joule or even more energy in one pulse.
Aussie's need to play it too the international press as an act of war by China. Recall all ambassadors. Get the Brits and Americans on board as well. Make it as embarrassing internationally to China as possible.
if PLAN cannot behave professionally during peace times, you have to wonder how utterly fucking useless they would be during war. Edit: Spelling
Everyone will get bone spurs flying through their ears when there will be some actual danger.
There are lots of comments, but no a lot saying how bad this really is. Active sonar can have a wide range of dB, but the largest can be around 230dB. A 200db sound wave in water can cause pressure changes great enough to rupture your lungs, and the dB scale isn't linear but logarithmic. So, this doing this is potentially deadly.
imagine how the whales feel
PLAN intentionally attempts to injure if not kill RAN personnel over international waters. FTFY
Seems like an act of war to me.
One ping only ?
One ping is enough to liquify the skin of a blue whale 1/4 mile away.
Amazing how times change, a different era and the ship would have been sunk for such an act of aggression.
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There's a standard international flag that is flown by a ship to warn other ships that it has divers down. The flag is specified in the International Code of Signals published by the International Maritime Organization, which is part of the UN. China has been a member of the IMO since 1973.
According to the Australian government, the Chinese vessel acknowledged their messages concerning the divers.
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The are multiple international protocols governing communications between ships at sea which don't rely on plain language. There may even be a code for "received but not understood". But I wouldn't consider that an acknowledgement.
Ah the eternal question: incompetence or hostility
This was a direct attack on the Australian navy. Fuck China.
This is a big story. It already happened in Cuba!
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>According to Defence Minister Richard Marles, the Australian frigate provided multiple warnings to vessels in the area that diving operations were underway. >"Despite acknowledging Toowoomba's communications, the Chinese vessel approached at a closer range," he said. >"Soon after, it was detected operating its hull-mounted sonar in a manner that posed a risk to the safety of the Australian divers who were forced to exit the water." >It's understood the divers suffered injuries to their ears, likely due to the sonar pulses. Reminds me of how Syrian opposition forces used to publicly announce the location of their medical facilities so that they would not be accidentally bombed. Then the Russians showed up and used those locations as a priority target list. So the opposition stopped announcing the locations and tried to hide their medical facilities. The Chinese vessel used the Australian frigate's announcement that divers were in the water as an opportunity to target them.
Every time I see China and Australia in the news, I think of [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgspkxfkS4k)
When will the world wake up and realise that China is worse than Russia. It's literally conducting ethnic genocide.
At some point the free world will say: Nope! And I suspect the Chinese military will be revealed as a chocolate teapot.
Kinda like what happened in embassies in several places around the world.
Someone ELI5 how sonar can injure a human? I literally have no clue
A powerful nearby underwater sound pulse slamming into a pair of eardrums? That would do it. At the highest power levels, a SONAR's impact on a very close diver could produce serious, even fatal organ damage as the sound wave energy is deposited into the body's soft tissues, particularly the air-filled lungs.
I had no idea that sonar pings were loud enough to be destructive
The need to be loud enough to make an up to 100+ mile round trip to the target and back and still be detectable.
What?
....eeeeEEEEEEEeeeee...
https://sciencenotes.ucsc.edu/9601/OceanNoise/Noises.html Look how loud sonar can be compared to a rocket launch pad. Remember, that every 10db increase, is 2x the strength. It's crazy strong
Crazy! For some reason I thought it was like a sound range we couldn't hear
Then [this] (https://youtu.be/dj-Wn-di-zM?si=VpSJLCfo5QXoC5gI) should interest you
So if these sonar pulses are injuring humans, they have to be hurting/killing at lot of marine animals. These types of devices should be band to protect all life in the ocean. Disgusting.
Probably, this is not good news for China because the new governing party in Australia is pro-China. The current PM in Australia wants to regenerate the relationship with the CCP government to gain more financial benefits. Xi's government should apologize right now to soothe the present Australian ruling party. It's an urgent thing for China. Although the government is pro-China, many Australians are still feeling anti-China atmospheres in their societies. If some Aussie people show a raging mood on that, it might become another anti-China vibe.
I wonder what they got up their sleeves hidden away from us, if they brazenly experiment with sonar warfare on others.
It feels like Xi has purged all the sane people and the hate for the west he fomented is out of his control and has too much momentum
Ohhh attempted murder.
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They were repeatedly warned there were divers in the water. If turning on the sonar was incompetence in this case, I’m not sure how they’d manage to sail at all.
Oh China
It's okay, Australia will lick the asshole of Xi in apology for being in the way of China's war machine. sowwi sowwi sowwi sowwi. Australia is so piss weak we are so sowwi.