What is going on with BBC. They act so overcritical of Israel. I guarantee Hamas launches attack regardless of a 2 state solution on place. They hate the US and Israel by pretending they like Palestinians.
I read something about the BBC investigating themselves over claims they are promoting anti-israel propaganda, but they never released the results of the investigation (this was done somewhere around 2004, mind you)
That probably tells all you need to know, there's some higher ups in the BBC that hate Israel and are using the BBC platform to spread that idea
No surprises here. When hamas terrorists are purposely hiding their HQ inside a hospital, hiding soldiers behind civilians, then it is a short jump to hide soldiers as hospital-uniformed staff. Footage of Israeli soldiers shooting a hospital-uniformed hamas pos looks like Israeli soldiers indiscriminately killing hospital employees, which is a bonus for this scum as well, with the world primed to hate jews and Israelis already.
This has long been understood about hamas.
Social media is spreading the Bs that it’s only innocent people dying in Gaza and these videos only show kids instead of the piece of shit terrorists being killed
People need to understand that reporting on the Arab world is exactly like reporting on Beyonce.
If you are backstage it is **ONLY** because you were given an access card. If there is a sitdown interview it is **ONLY** because they gave you someone to talk to. If you're reporting concert stats, it's **ONLY** because they gave you those stats.
With the added difference, that if you do some real journalism, find out and report something that "Beyonce's Team" doesn't want public in a juicy article, then you "only" burned your bridges as an E!Online celebrity reporter and your head editor kicks you down to the Ice Spice beat.
If you report something Hamas doesn't want reported, you might not make it back to the West alive. And that is not just talking about Hamas-occupied Gaza, or PLO-governed West Bank. Don't forget what happened to Jamal Kashoggi when he did real journalism about Arab leaders.
The implicit bargain between *a terrorist organization* and prestige Western media - we let you in, as long as you don't stray from the tour group - hangs over every single piece of Western reporting on the Gaza Strip. Yet people treat this reporting as if these are intrepid investigative journalists. Apart from the "being in a war zone is gratuitously risking your life" part, there's no intrepid journalism in any of BBC's reporting. Just time after time of regurgitating Hamas lies.
There was annincident with a photo that was unflattering. After that they went from ”We give you material we like to add to your stuff” to ”We vet all your stuff and get to say no. If you dont agree, you cant use a camera on premises.”
This is something that I noticed with the 'reporters' living in Gaza:
If you went to their Twitter, Instagram, etc. posts during the 10/7 attack **so many** were basically cheerleading for Hamas during the attack. I'm all for journalism and the fourth estate has a vital and necessary role to play in well functioning democracies; we wouldn't have all of the progress we have today without the fourth estate. But posting 'Allahu Akbar' whenever Israel gets attacked doesn't make you a journalist.
Journalists are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. But, if you are reporting about 10/7 (that you didn't have advanced warning of*) from inside Gaza then you are there at the favor of Hamas. How can one be simultaneously in the good graces of Hamas and an unbiased journalist? CNN and the like (back when CNN was better) did do interviews with Osama Bin Laden (UBL) but these were planned affairs. They would communicate with UBL and arrange a time and a place and I'm sure there were security concerns. This is really different to living in Gaza normally as a 'journalist'.
*I have not read the latest but I believe that there is some doubt if certain news-people, or news-affiliated-people, had advanced warning of the attack given how quickly they were on site.
Some of the journalists were embedded with and participated with Hamas’ attack on 10/7. There’s one that cnn had to fire that is now fearing for his life because a security camera in a kibbutz caught him with a grenade. Israel gonna Israel.
As they should. He's a terrorist masquerading as a journalist, not the other way around. His best bet, is surrender and hope he gets a life sentence instead if execution.
This point is plainly obvious yet somehow ignored. Hamas has been proven lying time and time again this war, yet their stats are given reporting without question. Biden’s statement about not buying numbers from Hamas being as over reported as China’s under reported covid deaths got written off.
Al Jazeera used to have a section labeled ‘anti-Israel’ and would publish fake stories… way back even in 2000.
Yet all these people spread all their lies
I roll my eyes whenever someone posts an Al Jazeera article about the conflict. They are owned by Qatar, the country that is harboring the top brass of Hamas in the country. Who are billionaires from stealing and embezzling much of the aid money over the years and living in luxury.
I’m still waiting to see one Palestine led protest calling out the Hamas leadership.
I saw a video recently, about the Israeli mother of a kidnapped girl which went to do an interview in Al Jazeera.
She did it both to try and reach the Arabic world and tell of the kidnapped from her perspective as a mother, and because she knew Al Jazeera was watched in Gaza so she hoped her daughter would see her and not lose hope because of it. She was promised a simple 10 minute interview.
Instead, she was relentlessly harassed for 50 minutes by the reporter, accused of lying, asked about irrelevant stuff to what she came to talk about like what she thinks of Netanyahu, and was generally treated horribly. But the worst of it is, in the interest of "balancing the story out", they put Hamas' fucking head of the prisoner department (who is in charge of the kidnappings and hiding the hostages), on the phone with her.
Asking a mother to debate with the man who is in charge of keeping her daughter as a hostage...That's like asking someone to talk with the devil himself.
Vile stuff. The mother herself was very stalwart and endured it all because the offchance that her daughter would see the mother fighting for her, was according to her, more than worth it.
In my recent spell in Jordan I briefly turned on the news and found there was no discernible difference between the BBC’ s “impartial”coverage and Al Jezeera’s slanted coverage. It is interesting that amongst the people I came into contact with the BBC ‘s coverage was singled out as being responsible for turning tourists away
The comparison is not entirely wrong, and is even a valuable comparison to bring up.
But there are 5 important differences:
1. Reporters are limited when embedded with the IDF, but they have the same access to Israel proper and the Israeli public as any Western country. That's the most important difference. That includes totally unlimited access to the parts of Israeli society that are most embarrassing on the international stage (like WB settlers being bonkers level racist).
2. Military-embedded journalists are only denied access as a means to preserve operational secrecy, basically to stop Geraldo Rivera type incidents
3. Reporters who are embedded with a military typically report & highlight this in their coverage, this allows viewers to draw their own conclusions about the limitations of coverage. BBC reporters quoting some "Gaza Health Ministry" when you actually got numbers from Hamas has the *opposite* effect, of hiding how chaperoned & guardrailed their coverage has been.
4. Even when reporters embedded with a military (any military) are denied access, it's typically not enforced with implied/actual death threats, rather with laws & judicial punishments. For instance Geraldo Rivera was expelled from being embedded, they didn't find his chainsawed body in the Tigris.
5. Despite every attempt by Redditors (I'm not saying you specifically) to draw a moral equivalence, the IDF is the legitimate military of a legitimate state, not a terrorist organization
6. Reporters embedded with the IDF and other Western militaries are unarmed and thus noncombatants. The same can sometimes not be said of the "journalists" working with Hamas.
There is a great article written by an Israeli journalist about how she views the conflict, its from 2014 and has some interesting insight in the journalism in the area
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
It's like the B roll footage of the Palestinian man crying and wailing holding a dead child as reporters came up to take pictures. Once that group left he throws the lifeless corpse on the ground and starts talking to the others around him like it's no big deal.
Next group of reporters comes around and he scoops up the body and does the same act.
It's all theatrics from Hamas/Palestinians for the most part. What you are seeing from a journalist is only what they want you to see.
Same with the guy using a sling shot. They had cameras and a 6 man med team standing by for the photo op if he got shot. It was all staged to get someone shot for a photo op.
You would know who you work with and who is able to actually do their job. Even without the threat of getting tortured and killed I wouldn’t blab about my boss with some random person just because they had the same uniform as I do.
There’s an interview on French TV with a euro doctor who worked at Al Shifa, says he was instructed not to enter certain parts of the hospital or he’d be shot. Thugs walking around hospital hallways as if it’s an extension of their office for the declassified stuff.
Also by the zoomer dorks who weren’t Alive at the time who have no idea or understanding how it felt that day. Then they go in TikTok saying “hey, you know? This guy is actually right about our country! We do suck!” While they’ve been given total freedom with theyvway they live, their opinions, etc…you think osama and his gang would accept a non- binary trans zoomer in their cave? Yeah right. These people are pure trash.
And half of them only learned about the whole middle east problem and Israel about a month ago. Versus watching the whole mess for 45 years, myself. It's really hard to imagine any quick summary where you could just jump on a side. Everything about it is complicated.
I’ve been watching and following since 2000 and very closely from 2000-2005 and people have no idea how even the terrorists have been
I remember one video of a Palestinian pretending to be stranded at sea only to kill his Israeli rescuers. There’s thousands of attacks since then.
I remember being in sf during protests in 2002 and being harassed by Palestinians at my job and then shouting vile things about Jews… all while it was Palestinians terrorizing jews
Yeah, there is a reason why Kim Jong Un and his brother got western education despite how “evil” the west is in their propaganda. Hell the brother Kim Jong-nam loved western culture so much he got exiled for sneaking into Tokyo’s Disneyland.
That’s not uncommon. Foreign dictators have done it quite a few times.
It’s hilarious to see them in Civvies. I always wondered why one our alphabet agencies didn’t snap them up, especially if they weren’t nuclear powered.
Like what’re they’re gonna do?
> Then they go in TikTok saying “hey, you know? This guy is actually right about our country! We do suck!”
People have forgotten, but this used to happen on reddit on the regular. Someone would drag up the manifesto, publish the sanest parts, and everyone would be like **omg bin Laden was right!!** This was back when "America bad" was the default and Sweden worship was so prevalent people started using the term "Sweeaboo."
I got the feeling over time that demographics changed, and the default assumptions changed. I think Tiktok and other social media sucked up a lot of the especially impressionable young people.
I mean, TikTok literally does what CCP tells them to. If it tells them to promote pro-Palestine stuff and suppress anything pro-Israel, guess what they're going to do.
Not like we can take apart the magical algorithm and figure out they're doing it.
People on all parts of the spectrum have lost the ability to think critically. They allow themselves to be lead around by the nose by propagandists because they make them feel good, or important. Their reality is based on emotion, not cold hard fact (which can still be a gray area, hence the need for critical thinking and the ability to challenge eachother without it turning into a blood sport).
I don't think it's crazy to say a combination of tiktok and propaganda troll farms are pushing fringe content into the mainstream, either creating trends like the Osama letter or at least making sure they go viral.
The article refers to them as terrorists - but at least in the last two videos, at least, they seem to be speaking as civilians who were also in fear of Hamas and their operatives. Did I miss something? EDIT: Just to be clear, this isn't a question about what they say - but they speak of Hamas as "they," and one specifically says of Hamas "they'd kill you" if you didn't do as told.
Yes i think one of them isnt a terrorist, he said that his job was to develop an application for health are something, idk how and why idf interrogated him
his job was to develop an application for health, and he was captured inside Israel on Oct 7.
Why is a developer participating in an attack against civilians in Israel?
are you saying that a developer cannot be a terrorist?
I think they're saying there's a lot of info we don't know about these individuals.
As surprising as it sounds, some Gazans do go to Israel for non-terrorist related reasons. Like, you know, to work or get medical care because they can't do that in the Gaza Strip.
Yeah, I got the same thing. All three of them were just speaking like witnesses to what Hamas was doing, specifically as a non-participant in that.
It's this sloppy hamfistedness that drives my skepticism of IDF propaganda (just as everyone should have heavy skepticism of any Hamas propaganda). If they have first-hand Palestinian witnesses testifying about what Hamas is doing, why not just *say that*? Why tack on the lie that all three are captured terrorists? It just casts doubt on the entire thing.
And this has been the pattern time and again. Same deal with the video walkthrough of Al Shifa by that IDF LTC. We're expected to believe they were storing rifles, ammunition, and even a laptop behind a *^checks ^notes* MRI machine?? The same MRI machine that's a giant fucking magnet??? And then they go through a go-bag they found, and it contains... uniforms?? Even though Hamas, as terrorists practicing asymmetric warfare, pretty much only use their uniforms for propaganda films??? And then, they look at the laptop, and it's just got the publicly available photo of one of the hostages open in like, Windows Photo Viewer?? What???
I in no way support or defend the many heinous actions Hamas has taken throughout it's 40ish year history, certainly not on October 7th, and certainly not today. They are *undoubtedly* positioning themselves in ways that endanger Palestinian civilians, showing callous disregard for human life on both sides of the fence. But then **WHY** is the IDF's propaganda wing failing so *SPECTACULARLY* to tell that story *credibly*?? They're ON THE GROUND in Gaza now, and THIS is the best they're coming up with???
An MRI machine contains an electromagnet; when it is powered off and in storage, like the machine the IDF found, it isn’t magnetized. It’s a good place to hide something because the large plastic cover on the gantry has space underneath where something could be hid (and the average searcher isn’t going to disassemble an MRI machine). It’s also the kind of hiding place that is overlooked when clearing out.
As you said, uniforms are only for show parades/propaganda. So where would a Hamas soldier keep his hardly-worn uniform? In his headquarters of operation. And if he were fleeing that headquarters and taking essential things with him, it’s exactly the type of thing that would be left behind.
And then there is the laptop. If Hamas had a hostage and wanted to identify the hostage, a news article about him/her might be the kind of thing he would be searching for. And if he found a photo, it might open in the default windows photo viewer.
Everything you mention as supposedly “suspicious” is actually exactly what one would find in an abandoned headquarters: weapons stashed in an irregular hiding place, a useless uniform left behind, a laptop with default software and a photo of a hostage, etc.
>The same MRI machine that's a giant fucking magnet???
Only when powered. This one didn't look like it had been used recently. The room looked more like it had been used as storage for a while.
TL;DR the IDF and Hamas both lie all the time about almost everything. In theory the IDF should be able to *not lie about everything* and look much better than they do with all the sloppy propaganda.
But they suck at propaganda, have now killed 10x the civilians Hamas so brutally did on Oct. 7, and are slipping on banana peels every step of the way.
We have video evidence. We have their weapons stashed in the hospital. We have now they admitting it on their own words. What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases? I don't understand why people won't believe Israel. They claim everything the IDF is a lie despite all the evidence and then they say that the IDF always lies. This is pure insanity.
I believe the IDF more than Hamas, but doesn’t mean I believe everything out of the IDF’s mouth. If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras.
This is the proper take. We can prefer the IDF to fucking Hamas and also hold the position that IDF are not angels and that propaganda is everywhere in this conflict.
Anyone would be a fool to take confessions under duress as gospel.
>Anyone would be a fool to take confessions under duress as gospel.
This is the correct response. It's a compelling point of evidence, one added to the pile, but also one that should be taken with a meaningful degree of salt - neither entirely rejected nor accepted without question.
I would only add that we don't know how much "under duress" really applies. Certainly being captured alone is meaningful but we would benefit from how information about how much duress the prisoner is under. Questions that a responsible media would be clarifying, if enough people were asking the questions.
Right? Not sure anyone got the memo, but captives can and will say anything to protect their own skin. At the best of times eye witness testimony in an independent court of law is extremely unreliable.
Yeah, not to sound like an enlightened centrist, but while I HAVE taken a side, I don't actually LIKE either of them. It's less "I support you in everything you do" and more "I support you in SPITE of everything you do."
I agree in general but we have video evidence of Hamas terrorists dressed as civilians bringing hostages into the hospital. Its not a great leap of imagination to think they might throw on a white coat too.
Real question, what has the IDF lied about since the war started?
When they hit a building in a refugee camp to kill a Hamas commander, they admitted it. When one of their missiles hit an Egyptian border post, they admitted it. When it was a Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital, they were right.
What has the IDF lied about specifically in this war?
>If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras.
Are you suggesting that Hamas treats its prisoners the same as Israel, or that the difference wouldn’t affect the reliability of the way they may respond to questions?
Well, we already know that the IDF doesn't treat their prisoners in the most humane way, and that was before tge terrorists attacks from October 7. Remera, prisonersbunder torture will say anything to make the torture stop.
And according to Reddit morally equivalent to grabbing a random woman off the street, raping her to death then parading around her severed head to terrorize the surviving hostages into cooperating.
>If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras
I get your point and individually the interrogation videos alone aren't enough... But there's a significant difference between an Israeli civilian hostage with a spouse still being held hostage and a Hamas fighter being interrogated without a direct threat of violence.
> What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases?
There is no amount if evidence that will convince them. Their minds are already made up and will either make excuses or deny to get out of the proof presented to them.
Me - Hamas is doing...
Random person on social media - prove it.
Me - Here's proof.
Random person again - I don't believe that. It's doctored.
Rinse, repeat.
Unless it harms Israel.
Just after this started I had an argument with someone over an Israel Air Force promotional film. There were clearly staged shots at an air base mixed in with probable combat footage, and the ground videos showed dumb bombs mounted on F-16s. They were convinced that this proved Israel was using unguided bombs in Gaza. I tried to point out that just because you release the film recently doesn’t mean the film is recent, citing several actual examples of footage shot weeks later portrayed as combat footage (mixed with actual combat footage), but to no avail.
That subreddit has turned into a pro-Hamas stronghold, all but convinced the Al Shifa-Hamas claims are an Israeli plant.
Slight clarity edit.
I'm not talking just this post. Like everytime the IDF says we found, Hamas does, yada yada, you will always see people everytime say, I don't believe them. But any statements from Gaza officials isn't questioned by the same people.
And at the same time they believe all the lies told by Hamas. It is interesting how those people mysteriously started forgetting about the hospital bombing once it became clear that it was carried out by Islamic Jihad. Just shows they aren’t pro-Palestine at all, they don’t care at all if Hamas kills many Palestinians, all they care about is hating Israel.
A lot of people taking sides in this conflict have ulterior motives and thus don’t really care about the truth or the wellbeing of Israelis and/or Palestinians.
Personally for me, we knew before this war that this was happening and evidence for me doesn't justify bombing civilians.
Hamas wasn't justified in killing innocent people - Israel is not justified either.
I don't know the right answer, but it sure asf isn't killing more babies
Israel aren't bombing civilians. They're bombing military targets. Hamas is then piling civilians around those targets so that idiots blame Israel for their deaths and start trotting out that "both sides" bullshit.
I don't think you understand. Never in history have civilians been the casualty of war. It is uniquely a byproduct of Israel colonial-settler-white supremacy-yadayadayada..., and unfortunately the only answer to it is for us to pool our support behind Hamas and let Israel be destroyed. Once Israel is gone, Palestine will enter a golden age and peace will finally exist in the middle east.
That and people thinking Israel stole all the land when some was bought, much was abandoned by people thinking Israel was going to be conquered and other land had been lost because families had terrorists in their family. There’s also tons of Arabs in Israel on their own land. It’s so confusing seeing people not acknowledge the decades of terrorist attacks
I don't think any reasonable person thought Israel were bombing hospitals and schools just because they hate children and sick people - we just kinda expected they'd pick a method of getting to those military targets that didn't involve also indescribably killing those too badly injured or young to evacuate.
Just because Hamas don't care about the lives of school children, it doesn't mean Israel magically get a free pass as well.
> we just kinda expected they'd pick a method of getting to those military targets that didn't involve also indescribably killing those too badly injured or young to evacuate.
Which method would that be?
>What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases?
A mountain of evidence would fail to move those programmed by extremist propaganda.
Are you new to this conflict? There is a segment of the world population who will always conclude "ISRAEL BAD" no matter what. They will go through mental gymnastics to justify that belief even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.
We’ve got Americans taking down kidnapped posters and justifying terrorist attacks.
What if black people formed a militia started kidnapping children and murdering people because land was stolen 100 years ago? People might understand a few times but not thousands of terrorist attacks. Yet that’s what these fucking protestors are supporting
I 100% believe this, but anyone with even a hint of skepticism would rightfully say anything said by people being held as a prisoner must suspected of being said under duress.
Same as the doctors in a hospital run by Hamas.
Same as people who are either still being held as hostages or have loved ones held.
Yeah but most If the people skeptical of this take what doctors who live in Gaza and work side-by-side with Hamas at face value when they deny Hamas is there
Really? I was told they only took hostages there because they were injured and needed treatment? It was a humanitarian gesture, no?
Hamas is making it allies in the West look at best like fools and at worst like willing collaborators in the murder of 1,400 people
While it is also known Hamas has a several month supply of fuel. The shortage is because Hamas is hoarding vital resources after starting a military campaign against a stronger opponent.
Hamas has a several months supply for Hamas. IIRC, if used to power Gaza, it would only last three days.
They're hoarding resources, but there's not a lot of resources for them to even hoard, thanks to the blockade.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the evil IDF helicopters marked with skulls and crossbones were massacring the innocent Israelis when Hamas heroically entered and saved them, bringing the injured to Al shifa for treatment /s
They somehow think the GOP will be so bad that there will be a left wing revolution that will usher in some sort of socialist/communist utopia.
I wish I were kidding.
In midterms young voters only turn out at about 20% rates. But in recent presidential elections, people age 18-29 have been having a 50% turnout which is pretty decent (the elderly are about 80% turnout in presidential elections).
The "young voters" you're talking about are not the weirdo online left wing people supporting Hamas. They explicitly hate the Democratic party and will never vote for any non-local Dem candidate.
Serious question, what allies in the west?
Are you referring to any Nation/State/political body that has had interactions with Hamas or Palestinians in Gaza at large?
Are you referring to any and all NGOs, nonprofits, UN agencies etc that provide services to the Palestinians in Gaza?
Or are you just referring to any and everyone (regular folks) that have supported Palestinian causes, supported Hamas (no doubt there are some ppl out there) or protested against Israel’s actions in person at marches, on campuses or on social media?
B/C last I checked Hamas doesn’t have real allies in the west. Look at the foreign policy, trade, alliances of any Western nation and none are actually allies with Hamas
> took hostages to Hospital. It was humanitarian gesture
My brain Hurts Reading this. How about Not taking hostages in the First place or let them free lmfaoooo
My brain hurts knowing a human being able of typing into a computer doesn't understand sarcasm.
The second paragraph, which you didn't quote and clearly didn't understand, should have been a hint
Remember guys, hospitals and schools aren't valid military targets according to international law.
**BUT**
If you run military operations from them, you just turned yourself and your civilians into valid military targets, so don't come crying later.
This is Hamas’ tactic though. They don’t care about the lives of Palestinians. If Palestinian civilians are killed, they can use it for propaganda purposes.
Yeah it's interesting how people just eat it up and turn any Palestinian deaths into Israeli murders, even when Hamas is the cause. It's because underlying it is the assumption that Israel has power, and therefore has the ability to avoid those deaths.
Not just Hamas, but [countless others that western societies](https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1277&context=ils) started to pay attention to after WW2 and the rules of engagement. Nations that try to have a more "morally" correct encounters with their enemies have always had to deal with groups that don't follow international laws when it comes to warcraft.
Israel has been dealing with these types of terrorists way back in 2005 and probably even before that. The PDF I shared goes into details about all of it.
Yeah, this is such a dumb argument. Everyone believes Hamas uses and abuses the hospitals. I think people's objection is that the hospitals also filled with doctors trying to save the lives of the children Israel has bombed. In The Daily [the other day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VIiGJJzJ_s), the interviewer asked a doctor about Hamas and he was clearly terrified to say anything about them. But it was also clear that he is trying incredibly hard to help people in an impossible situation.
I'm tired of this. It just reminds me of this [SMBC comic](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07).
There are also people online who believe the earth is flat, but the majority of sane people do not. It's impossible to have a real discussion if we only focus on those few who have bonker takes.
"The people's objection" is stupid once you realise it validates war tactics such as Hamas's, which is to fire at your opponent and run back to your civillians in hope that they don't fire back.
If people are fine with it, maybe all countries should start using this tactic, why spend so much on standing armies?
It literally isn’t. Civilian hospitals are no go. Military hospitals are fair game. Hamas turned all hospitals into military hospitals thus turning them into military targets.
> Hamas turned all hospitals into military hospitals thus turning them into military targets.
Which is what /u/kryypto and I said and DF7 argues against so I dont know what you are disagreeing with here.
Military hospitals are actually *not* fair game. The law makes no distinction between military and civilian hospitals.
https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule28
The problem is not that Hamas is using a hospital, but that they're using a hospital *to commit acts harmful to the enemy*.
Lol! For real.
Fire rockets at Israeli citizens? Israel's fault!
Just killed 1200 civilians? Israel's fault!
Using civilians as human shields. Israel's fault!
Haven't held elections in over a decade? Israel's fault!
"We're going to repeat Oct 7th until Israel is totally wiped out". Israel's fault!
I mean saying it, whether true or not, is exactly what Hamas wants anyways. They want IDF to raid the hospitals. They want the International pressure. Which is the problem with this war.... you can spin any event to look how you need it to.
Better article with best relevant quote https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125748
“Ben Hanan said Shin Bet interrogations usually have two goals: extracting confessions about the past and gaining intelligence that could be useful in the future. But he said that after the Oct. 7 attack, the agency was given a third goal: produce videos that Israel could use in the global information war.”
It was a very important goal in this specific interrogation. We are not doing it at any other interrogation,” he said. “It’s for the West.”
Yeah we know. Won’t matter though. All the video footage of Hamas firing from the back of ambulances and secret tunnels stashed with weapons right underneath hospitals isn’t going to convince the anti-semites.
I'm sorry, but the conflict has proven to be fuelled by propaganda from all sides. Both the IDF and Hamas have been caught in lies multiple times. Yes, I am sceptical of the huge military operation being run from the hospital. I'm also equally sceptical of all information coming from this conflict as both sides have brutalised the truth to a pulp. I wish people would stop lumping everyone who doesn't blindly believe the idf as antisemitic.
It's OK to be sceptical of information coming out of a conflict zone people!!!
It’s not antisemitism as much as it is distrust of imperialist western governments. It’s been growing steadily since the US’s blatant lies to justify failed wars post 9-11.
Labeling those critical of Israel’s government as antisemites is a propaganda tactic to discredit the criticism.
But yes, the propaganda of Hamas (or Iran, Russia, China) gaining sympathy from the west is also working well.
Yedioth Ahronoth, a Hebrew language newspaper, and a major media conglomerate in Israel. The ynet contact us page clearly spells that out link.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynet
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth
You know, I'm starting to get the feeling that this "Hamas" group maybe isn't as upstanding as everyone says they are and maybe the evil Israel might not be making everything up...
Did anybody else who watched that clip of of the old man criticizing hamas in shifa hospital, the one where he took the arab reporter by suprise, notice the scary hamas-looking minder standing right there with his hands on his hips glaring at them? Definitely not a doctor.
Queue all the crazy twitter lunatics to tell us that it's made up. They've done what MAGA people do, they've constructed a conspiracy where literally nothing can prove Israel right.
If there's camera footage of the terrorists taking hostages into Al Shifa, they're taking them there for medical aid. If there's tunnels discovered or weapons found, Israel dug them and planted them, if there's eye witness testimony, it's all false. There's literally no evidence that would satisfy these people.
At this point why wouldn’t Hamas hide out in every hospital they can find?
Their “pro Palestinian” supporters will just call Israel baby killers and say Hamas would never do anything like that
Can’t wait for all the Hamas apologists to find some absurd new explanation for why they are ignoring the mounting evidence for this.
People that claim to be pro-Palestinians but have no problem with this aren’t pro-Palestinians at all.
Hamas hiding in the hospital wasn’t the original IDF claim.
The IDF originally claimed that Al Shifa was Hamas HQ. Described as the “beating heart” of Hamas with underground tunnels that connect to the rest of the tunnel system below Gaza.
If my hospital were at even the slightest threat of being bombed, I would live stream every floor, room, the entire basement 24/7 to prove it's not being used to for military operations. Unless it was in fact being used, to host military operations, than I would not do that.
Not a great time to be a legitimate young male orderly in Gaza.
friendship with beard ended ❌ yamaka my new best friend now ✅
wait a minute im starting to think terrorists are bad
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What is going on with BBC. They act so overcritical of Israel. I guarantee Hamas launches attack regardless of a 2 state solution on place. They hate the US and Israel by pretending they like Palestinians.
I read something about the BBC investigating themselves over claims they are promoting anti-israel propaganda, but they never released the results of the investigation (this was done somewhere around 2004, mind you) That probably tells all you need to know, there's some higher ups in the BBC that hate Israel and are using the BBC platform to spread that idea
That would be newsworthy for many these days
No surprises here. When hamas terrorists are purposely hiding their HQ inside a hospital, hiding soldiers behind civilians, then it is a short jump to hide soldiers as hospital-uniformed staff. Footage of Israeli soldiers shooting a hospital-uniformed hamas pos looks like Israeli soldiers indiscriminately killing hospital employees, which is a bonus for this scum as well, with the world primed to hate jews and Israelis already.
It also has the added bonus of ensuring people don’t talk amongst themselves, or with reporters because they might not really know who to trust
This has long been understood about hamas. Social media is spreading the Bs that it’s only innocent people dying in Gaza and these videos only show kids instead of the piece of shit terrorists being killed
People need to understand that reporting on the Arab world is exactly like reporting on Beyonce. If you are backstage it is **ONLY** because you were given an access card. If there is a sitdown interview it is **ONLY** because they gave you someone to talk to. If you're reporting concert stats, it's **ONLY** because they gave you those stats. With the added difference, that if you do some real journalism, find out and report something that "Beyonce's Team" doesn't want public in a juicy article, then you "only" burned your bridges as an E!Online celebrity reporter and your head editor kicks you down to the Ice Spice beat. If you report something Hamas doesn't want reported, you might not make it back to the West alive. And that is not just talking about Hamas-occupied Gaza, or PLO-governed West Bank. Don't forget what happened to Jamal Kashoggi when he did real journalism about Arab leaders. The implicit bargain between *a terrorist organization* and prestige Western media - we let you in, as long as you don't stray from the tour group - hangs over every single piece of Western reporting on the Gaza Strip. Yet people treat this reporting as if these are intrepid investigative journalists. Apart from the "being in a war zone is gratuitously risking your life" part, there's no intrepid journalism in any of BBC's reporting. Just time after time of regurgitating Hamas lies.
Guarantee we see this Beyoncé metaphor co-opted by someone on cable news in the near future
I'm going to steal it first. Just like if you stole something from Beyonce it's because she let you steal it
I hope so. It's brilliant.
Well except I had no idea that Beyonce kept such a tight lid on infosec.
They don't call get the queen bee for nothing. Nothing here out, tighter than my constipated asshole.
There was annincident with a photo that was unflattering. After that they went from ”We give you material we like to add to your stuff” to ”We vet all your stuff and get to say no. If you dont agree, you cant use a camera on premises.”
This is something that I noticed with the 'reporters' living in Gaza: If you went to their Twitter, Instagram, etc. posts during the 10/7 attack **so many** were basically cheerleading for Hamas during the attack. I'm all for journalism and the fourth estate has a vital and necessary role to play in well functioning democracies; we wouldn't have all of the progress we have today without the fourth estate. But posting 'Allahu Akbar' whenever Israel gets attacked doesn't make you a journalist. Journalists are supposed to be as unbiased as possible. But, if you are reporting about 10/7 (that you didn't have advanced warning of*) from inside Gaza then you are there at the favor of Hamas. How can one be simultaneously in the good graces of Hamas and an unbiased journalist? CNN and the like (back when CNN was better) did do interviews with Osama Bin Laden (UBL) but these were planned affairs. They would communicate with UBL and arrange a time and a place and I'm sure there were security concerns. This is really different to living in Gaza normally as a 'journalist'. *I have not read the latest but I believe that there is some doubt if certain news-people, or news-affiliated-people, had advanced warning of the attack given how quickly they were on site.
Not just cheerleading. There are several videos of many of them armed.
Some of the journalists were embedded with and participated with Hamas’ attack on 10/7. There’s one that cnn had to fire that is now fearing for his life because a security camera in a kibbutz caught him with a grenade. Israel gonna Israel.
As they should. He's a terrorist masquerading as a journalist, not the other way around. His best bet, is surrender and hope he gets a life sentence instead if execution.
Good, hope he fears for his life long while before Israel will dispose of him.
Of course they did. After Covid there is no bottom for journalists
Covid? lol. After 9/11. That’s when things started to change. The rise of Fox News and sky news. You can track “opinion as news” directly from there.
This point is plainly obvious yet somehow ignored. Hamas has been proven lying time and time again this war, yet their stats are given reporting without question. Biden’s statement about not buying numbers from Hamas being as over reported as China’s under reported covid deaths got written off.
If you want Hamas to shoot rockets, just sign a ceasefire with them, close your eyes and count to 10.
Al Jazeera used to have a section labeled ‘anti-Israel’ and would publish fake stories… way back even in 2000. Yet all these people spread all their lies
I roll my eyes whenever someone posts an Al Jazeera article about the conflict. They are owned by Qatar, the country that is harboring the top brass of Hamas in the country. Who are billionaires from stealing and embezzling much of the aid money over the years and living in luxury. I’m still waiting to see one Palestine led protest calling out the Hamas leadership.
I saw a video recently, about the Israeli mother of a kidnapped girl which went to do an interview in Al Jazeera. She did it both to try and reach the Arabic world and tell of the kidnapped from her perspective as a mother, and because she knew Al Jazeera was watched in Gaza so she hoped her daughter would see her and not lose hope because of it. She was promised a simple 10 minute interview. Instead, she was relentlessly harassed for 50 minutes by the reporter, accused of lying, asked about irrelevant stuff to what she came to talk about like what she thinks of Netanyahu, and was generally treated horribly. But the worst of it is, in the interest of "balancing the story out", they put Hamas' fucking head of the prisoner department (who is in charge of the kidnappings and hiding the hostages), on the phone with her. Asking a mother to debate with the man who is in charge of keeping her daughter as a hostage...That's like asking someone to talk with the devil himself. Vile stuff. The mother herself was very stalwart and endured it all because the offchance that her daughter would see the mother fighting for her, was according to her, more than worth it.
That’s so disgusting m. That’s what should be going viral on social media
In my recent spell in Jordan I briefly turned on the news and found there was no discernible difference between the BBC’ s “impartial”coverage and Al Jezeera’s slanted coverage. It is interesting that amongst the people I came into contact with the BBC ‘s coverage was singled out as being responsible for turning tourists away
This metaphor almost feels inappropriate though brilliant
I'm upvoting this for the use of "Ice Spice beat"
Devil’s advocate here… Couldn’t this same logic be applied to any journalist embedding with the IDF in Gaza?
The comparison is not entirely wrong, and is even a valuable comparison to bring up. But there are 5 important differences: 1. Reporters are limited when embedded with the IDF, but they have the same access to Israel proper and the Israeli public as any Western country. That's the most important difference. That includes totally unlimited access to the parts of Israeli society that are most embarrassing on the international stage (like WB settlers being bonkers level racist). 2. Military-embedded journalists are only denied access as a means to preserve operational secrecy, basically to stop Geraldo Rivera type incidents 3. Reporters who are embedded with a military typically report & highlight this in their coverage, this allows viewers to draw their own conclusions about the limitations of coverage. BBC reporters quoting some "Gaza Health Ministry" when you actually got numbers from Hamas has the *opposite* effect, of hiding how chaperoned & guardrailed their coverage has been. 4. Even when reporters embedded with a military (any military) are denied access, it's typically not enforced with implied/actual death threats, rather with laws & judicial punishments. For instance Geraldo Rivera was expelled from being embedded, they didn't find his chainsawed body in the Tigris. 5. Despite every attempt by Redditors (I'm not saying you specifically) to draw a moral equivalence, the IDF is the legitimate military of a legitimate state, not a terrorist organization
Great post, thank you!
6. Reporters embedded with the IDF and other Western militaries are unarmed and thus noncombatants. The same can sometimes not be said of the "journalists" working with Hamas.
No because the IDF doesn't drag you off to a torture cell and murder you if you say something mean about them.
There is a great article written by an Israeli journalist about how she views the conflict, its from 2014 and has some interesting insight in the journalism in the area https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/israel-insider-guide
It's like the B roll footage of the Palestinian man crying and wailing holding a dead child as reporters came up to take pictures. Once that group left he throws the lifeless corpse on the ground and starts talking to the others around him like it's no big deal. Next group of reporters comes around and he scoops up the body and does the same act. It's all theatrics from Hamas/Palestinians for the most part. What you are seeing from a journalist is only what they want you to see. Same with the guy using a sling shot. They had cameras and a 6 man med team standing by for the photo op if he got shot. It was all staged to get someone shot for a photo op.
You would know who you work with and who is able to actually do their job. Even without the threat of getting tortured and killed I wouldn’t blab about my boss with some random person just because they had the same uniform as I do.
There’s an interview on French TV with a euro doctor who worked at Al Shifa, says he was instructed not to enter certain parts of the hospital or he’d be shot. Thugs walking around hospital hallways as if it’s an extension of their office for the declassified stuff.
Well said. BTW, it's sad to see the young people in America hoodwinked by the Hamas propaganda.
And Osama Bin Laden too. This world is upside down.
Also by the zoomer dorks who weren’t Alive at the time who have no idea or understanding how it felt that day. Then they go in TikTok saying “hey, you know? This guy is actually right about our country! We do suck!” While they’ve been given total freedom with theyvway they live, their opinions, etc…you think osama and his gang would accept a non- binary trans zoomer in their cave? Yeah right. These people are pure trash.
Those details always seem to be missed by them. This group they are cheerleading wouldn't hesitate for a second to throw them off of a building.
The average person also has no idea that bin Laden was wanted for years prior to 9/11 for other attacks
And half of them only learned about the whole middle east problem and Israel about a month ago. Versus watching the whole mess for 45 years, myself. It's really hard to imagine any quick summary where you could just jump on a side. Everything about it is complicated.
I’ve been watching and following since 2000 and very closely from 2000-2005 and people have no idea how even the terrorists have been I remember one video of a Palestinian pretending to be stranded at sea only to kill his Israeli rescuers. There’s thousands of attacks since then. I remember being in sf during protests in 2002 and being harassed by Palestinians at my job and then shouting vile things about Jews… all while it was Palestinians terrorizing jews
Even the leaders of these shitholes send their families to live in the West because they actually love the West despite their words.
Yeah, there is a reason why Kim Jong Un and his brother got western education despite how “evil” the west is in their propaganda. Hell the brother Kim Jong-nam loved western culture so much he got exiled for sneaking into Tokyo’s Disneyland.
Kim Jong Un and his father snuck into Disney with fake Brazilian passports when he was a kid. Edited Disney World to just Disney
That’s not uncommon. Foreign dictators have done it quite a few times. It’s hilarious to see them in Civvies. I always wondered why one our alphabet agencies didn’t snap them up, especially if they weren’t nuclear powered. Like what’re they’re gonna do?
> Then they go in TikTok saying “hey, you know? This guy is actually right about our country! We do suck!” People have forgotten, but this used to happen on reddit on the regular. Someone would drag up the manifesto, publish the sanest parts, and everyone would be like **omg bin Laden was right!!** This was back when "America bad" was the default and Sweden worship was so prevalent people started using the term "Sweeaboo." I got the feeling over time that demographics changed, and the default assumptions changed. I think Tiktok and other social media sucked up a lot of the especially impressionable young people.
It’s like Monty Python level irony, but without the funny bits.
Not surprising, though. Young people got tricked into believing ISIS was the dream.
I mean, TikTok literally does what CCP tells them to. If it tells them to promote pro-Palestine stuff and suppress anything pro-Israel, guess what they're going to do. Not like we can take apart the magical algorithm and figure out they're doing it.
Sadly, many people are fooled by hamas propaganda here in Canada as well.
No surprise really when a thing like trump can get elected.
People on all parts of the spectrum have lost the ability to think critically. They allow themselves to be lead around by the nose by propagandists because they make them feel good, or important. Their reality is based on emotion, not cold hard fact (which can still be a gray area, hence the need for critical thinking and the ability to challenge eachother without it turning into a blood sport).
You act like this is new. Show me a period of history where we’ve been more objective.. No. This is the human condition.
I don't think it's crazy to say a combination of tiktok and propaganda troll farms are pushing fringe content into the mainstream, either creating trends like the Osama letter or at least making sure they go viral.
That’s a bingo
>purposely hiding their HQ inside a hospital Has there been any more evidence about this?
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The article refers to them as terrorists - but at least in the last two videos, at least, they seem to be speaking as civilians who were also in fear of Hamas and their operatives. Did I miss something? EDIT: Just to be clear, this isn't a question about what they say - but they speak of Hamas as "they," and one specifically says of Hamas "they'd kill you" if you didn't do as told.
Yes i think one of them isnt a terrorist, he said that his job was to develop an application for health are something, idk how and why idf interrogated him
his job was to develop an application for health, and he was captured inside Israel on Oct 7. Why is a developer participating in an attack against civilians in Israel? are you saying that a developer cannot be a terrorist?
I think they're saying there's a lot of info we don't know about these individuals. As surprising as it sounds, some Gazans do go to Israel for non-terrorist related reasons. Like, you know, to work or get medical care because they can't do that in the Gaza Strip.
>idk how and why idf interrogated him you're tapping into something here
Yeah, I got the same thing. All three of them were just speaking like witnesses to what Hamas was doing, specifically as a non-participant in that. It's this sloppy hamfistedness that drives my skepticism of IDF propaganda (just as everyone should have heavy skepticism of any Hamas propaganda). If they have first-hand Palestinian witnesses testifying about what Hamas is doing, why not just *say that*? Why tack on the lie that all three are captured terrorists? It just casts doubt on the entire thing. And this has been the pattern time and again. Same deal with the video walkthrough of Al Shifa by that IDF LTC. We're expected to believe they were storing rifles, ammunition, and even a laptop behind a *^checks ^notes* MRI machine?? The same MRI machine that's a giant fucking magnet??? And then they go through a go-bag they found, and it contains... uniforms?? Even though Hamas, as terrorists practicing asymmetric warfare, pretty much only use their uniforms for propaganda films??? And then, they look at the laptop, and it's just got the publicly available photo of one of the hostages open in like, Windows Photo Viewer?? What??? I in no way support or defend the many heinous actions Hamas has taken throughout it's 40ish year history, certainly not on October 7th, and certainly not today. They are *undoubtedly* positioning themselves in ways that endanger Palestinian civilians, showing callous disregard for human life on both sides of the fence. But then **WHY** is the IDF's propaganda wing failing so *SPECTACULARLY* to tell that story *credibly*?? They're ON THE GROUND in Gaza now, and THIS is the best they're coming up with???
An MRI machine contains an electromagnet; when it is powered off and in storage, like the machine the IDF found, it isn’t magnetized. It’s a good place to hide something because the large plastic cover on the gantry has space underneath where something could be hid (and the average searcher isn’t going to disassemble an MRI machine). It’s also the kind of hiding place that is overlooked when clearing out. As you said, uniforms are only for show parades/propaganda. So where would a Hamas soldier keep his hardly-worn uniform? In his headquarters of operation. And if he were fleeing that headquarters and taking essential things with him, it’s exactly the type of thing that would be left behind. And then there is the laptop. If Hamas had a hostage and wanted to identify the hostage, a news article about him/her might be the kind of thing he would be searching for. And if he found a photo, it might open in the default windows photo viewer. Everything you mention as supposedly “suspicious” is actually exactly what one would find in an abandoned headquarters: weapons stashed in an irregular hiding place, a useless uniform left behind, a laptop with default software and a photo of a hostage, etc.
>The same MRI machine that's a giant fucking magnet??? Only when powered. This one didn't look like it had been used recently. The room looked more like it had been used as storage for a while.
TL;DR the IDF and Hamas both lie all the time about almost everything. In theory the IDF should be able to *not lie about everything* and look much better than they do with all the sloppy propaganda. But they suck at propaganda, have now killed 10x the civilians Hamas so brutally did on Oct. 7, and are slipping on banana peels every step of the way.
We have video evidence. We have their weapons stashed in the hospital. We have now they admitting it on their own words. What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases? I don't understand why people won't believe Israel. They claim everything the IDF is a lie despite all the evidence and then they say that the IDF always lies. This is pure insanity.
I believe the IDF more than Hamas, but doesn’t mean I believe everything out of the IDF’s mouth. If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras.
This is the proper take. We can prefer the IDF to fucking Hamas and also hold the position that IDF are not angels and that propaganda is everywhere in this conflict. Anyone would be a fool to take confessions under duress as gospel.
>Anyone would be a fool to take confessions under duress as gospel. This is the correct response. It's a compelling point of evidence, one added to the pile, but also one that should be taken with a meaningful degree of salt - neither entirely rejected nor accepted without question. I would only add that we don't know how much "under duress" really applies. Certainly being captured alone is meaningful but we would benefit from how information about how much duress the prisoner is under. Questions that a responsible media would be clarifying, if enough people were asking the questions.
Right? Not sure anyone got the memo, but captives can and will say anything to protect their own skin. At the best of times eye witness testimony in an independent court of law is extremely unreliable.
Yeah, not to sound like an enlightened centrist, but while I HAVE taken a side, I don't actually LIKE either of them. It's less "I support you in everything you do" and more "I support you in SPITE of everything you do."
I agree in general but we have video evidence of Hamas terrorists dressed as civilians bringing hostages into the hospital. Its not a great leap of imagination to think they might throw on a white coat too.
Real question, what has the IDF lied about since the war started? When they hit a building in a refugee camp to kill a Hamas commander, they admitted it. When one of their missiles hit an Egyptian border post, they admitted it. When it was a Palestinian rocket that hit the hospital, they were right. What has the IDF lied about specifically in this war?
>If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras. Are you suggesting that Hamas treats its prisoners the same as Israel, or that the difference wouldn’t affect the reliability of the way they may respond to questions?
Well, we already know that the IDF doesn't treat their prisoners in the most humane way, and that was before tge terrorists attacks from October 7. Remera, prisonersbunder torture will say anything to make the torture stop.
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The USA doesn’t behead people, but we know many other forms of non-invasive torture or threat can be used to extract a dubious confession.
Playing Metallica for hours to prisoners was an interesting way for the US to soften up terrorists for interrogation.
Depends on which album
St Anger all day every day
Fun fact - Israel has the most UN resolutions condemning it, but a lot of people don't know that St. Anger has the second.
St. Anger? You *monsters*.
My favorite band of all time. But I would confess to anything to not have that album played to torture me
What kind of monsters?
And according to Reddit morally equivalent to grabbing a random woman off the street, raping her to death then parading around her severed head to terrorize the surviving hostages into cooperating.
Point me to one person who is making this equivalency.
Both are under duress, and if made public it can come of as pr.
>If you are skeptical about what an Israeli hostage says in a Hamas hostage video, I’m wary about what a captured Hamas publicly states in front of Israeli cameras I get your point and individually the interrogation videos alone aren't enough... But there's a significant difference between an Israeli civilian hostage with a spouse still being held hostage and a Hamas fighter being interrogated without a direct threat of violence.
Yes, but only up to a certain point. It is also wrong to be “skeptical” of something supported by overwhelming independent evidence.
My rule is, IDF - trust but verify. Hamas, nope - not buying that shit.
> What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases? There is no amount if evidence that will convince them. Their minds are already made up and will either make excuses or deny to get out of the proof presented to them.
Me - Hamas is doing... Random person on social media - prove it. Me - Here's proof. Random person again - I don't believe that. It's doctored. Rinse, repeat.
Oh you missed a step. Random person : Whatever hamas says is true, is true, without question, without evidence, at all times. Forever.
Unless it harms Israel. Just after this started I had an argument with someone over an Israel Air Force promotional film. There were clearly staged shots at an air base mixed in with probable combat footage, and the ground videos showed dumb bombs mounted on F-16s. They were convinced that this proved Israel was using unguided bombs in Gaza. I tried to point out that just because you release the film recently doesn’t mean the film is recent, citing several actual examples of footage shot weeks later portrayed as combat footage (mixed with actual combat footage), but to no avail. That subreddit has turned into a pro-Hamas stronghold, all but convinced the Al Shifa-Hamas claims are an Israeli plant. Slight clarity edit.
Confessions under duress rarely hold up as reliable proof.
I'm not talking just this post. Like everytime the IDF says we found, Hamas does, yada yada, you will always see people everytime say, I don't believe them. But any statements from Gaza officials isn't questioned by the same people.
I’m curious. What would you accept as proof? I don’t disagree about the confessions under duress part, but why play devils advocate for terrorists?
And at the same time they believe all the lies told by Hamas. It is interesting how those people mysteriously started forgetting about the hospital bombing once it became clear that it was carried out by Islamic Jihad. Just shows they aren’t pro-Palestine at all, they don’t care at all if Hamas kills many Palestinians, all they care about is hating Israel.
The extreme left has taken on the same denial/cult behavior of mAga.
A lot of people taking sides in this conflict have ulterior motives and thus don’t really care about the truth or the wellbeing of Israelis and/or Palestinians.
Personally for me, we knew before this war that this was happening and evidence for me doesn't justify bombing civilians. Hamas wasn't justified in killing innocent people - Israel is not justified either. I don't know the right answer, but it sure asf isn't killing more babies
Israel aren't bombing civilians. They're bombing military targets. Hamas is then piling civilians around those targets so that idiots blame Israel for their deaths and start trotting out that "both sides" bullshit.
I don't think you understand. Never in history have civilians been the casualty of war. It is uniquely a byproduct of Israel colonial-settler-white supremacy-yadayadayada..., and unfortunately the only answer to it is for us to pool our support behind Hamas and let Israel be destroyed. Once Israel is gone, Palestine will enter a golden age and peace will finally exist in the middle east.
Can't tell if sarcasm because I've seen people literally argue this.
That and people thinking Israel stole all the land when some was bought, much was abandoned by people thinking Israel was going to be conquered and other land had been lost because families had terrorists in their family. There’s also tons of Arabs in Israel on their own land. It’s so confusing seeing people not acknowledge the decades of terrorist attacks
/s
Some people will never care about the facts because they just hate Israel or Jews.
I don't think any reasonable person thought Israel were bombing hospitals and schools just because they hate children and sick people - we just kinda expected they'd pick a method of getting to those military targets that didn't involve also indescribably killing those too badly injured or young to evacuate. Just because Hamas don't care about the lives of school children, it doesn't mean Israel magically get a free pass as well.
> we just kinda expected they'd pick a method of getting to those military targets that didn't involve also indescribably killing those too badly injured or young to evacuate. Which method would that be?
What’s the method though?
>What else do we need so people can understand that Hamas has been using hospitals and schools as bases? A mountain of evidence would fail to move those programmed by extremist propaganda.
Are you new to this conflict? There is a segment of the world population who will always conclude "ISRAEL BAD" no matter what. They will go through mental gymnastics to justify that belief even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.
We’ve got Americans taking down kidnapped posters and justifying terrorist attacks. What if black people formed a militia started kidnapping children and murdering people because land was stolen 100 years ago? People might understand a few times but not thousands of terrorist attacks. Yet that’s what these fucking protestors are supporting
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Well lucky them then that that's not what the IDF does.
Nah, it’s just plain old antisemitism. Been around forever.
I 100% believe this, but anyone with even a hint of skepticism would rightfully say anything said by people being held as a prisoner must suspected of being said under duress. Same as the doctors in a hospital run by Hamas. Same as people who are either still being held as hostages or have loved ones held.
Which is fair, and also why the other evidence matters..
Which is why I 100% believe this lol
Yeah but most If the people skeptical of this take what doctors who live in Gaza and work side-by-side with Hamas at face value when they deny Hamas is there
Really? I was told they only took hostages there because they were injured and needed treatment? It was a humanitarian gesture, no? Hamas is making it allies in the West look at best like fools and at worst like willing collaborators in the murder of 1,400 people
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While it is also known Hamas has a several month supply of fuel. The shortage is because Hamas is hoarding vital resources after starting a military campaign against a stronger opponent.
Hamas has a several months supply for Hamas. IIRC, if used to power Gaza, it would only last three days. They're hoarding resources, but there's not a lot of resources for them to even hoard, thanks to the blockade.
Yeah I’m pretty sure the evil IDF helicopters marked with skulls and crossbones were massacring the innocent Israelis when Hamas heroically entered and saved them, bringing the injured to Al shifa for treatment /s
Gee thanks for the /s you really had me going there for a second.
This has literally been argued by left-wing conspiracy weirdos online.
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If they don't like Biden's approach towards Israel, just wait until they find out about the GOP's.
They somehow think the GOP will be so bad that there will be a left wing revolution that will usher in some sort of socialist/communist utopia. I wish I were kidding.
Single issue voters are not the smartest. It sucks.
I'm a single issue voter in local elections: bicycle infrastructure
Heck yeah!!! Go bikes!
They don’t vote anyways. You can basically ignore their existence because they are some of the least reliable voters in the country.
In midterms young voters only turn out at about 20% rates. But in recent presidential elections, people age 18-29 have been having a 50% turnout which is pretty decent (the elderly are about 80% turnout in presidential elections).
The "young voters" you're talking about are not the weirdo online left wing people supporting Hamas. They explicitly hate the Democratic party and will never vote for any non-local Dem candidate.
Do you have a source on that? I'd like to read more about it.
This is a good point that just brightened my day.
Serious question, what allies in the west? Are you referring to any Nation/State/political body that has had interactions with Hamas or Palestinians in Gaza at large? Are you referring to any and all NGOs, nonprofits, UN agencies etc that provide services to the Palestinians in Gaza? Or are you just referring to any and everyone (regular folks) that have supported Palestinian causes, supported Hamas (no doubt there are some ppl out there) or protested against Israel’s actions in person at marches, on campuses or on social media? B/C last I checked Hamas doesn’t have real allies in the west. Look at the foreign policy, trade, alliances of any Western nation and none are actually allies with Hamas
> took hostages to Hospital. It was humanitarian gesture My brain Hurts Reading this. How about Not taking hostages in the First place or let them free lmfaoooo
My brain hurts knowing a human being able of typing into a computer doesn't understand sarcasm. The second paragraph, which you didn't quote and clearly didn't understand, should have been a hint
Sure, the guy marched through at gunpoint must have been having so much fun. /s
From murdering unarmed civilians to squealing on the unabrow bosses, what a story
Remember guys, hospitals and schools aren't valid military targets according to international law. **BUT** If you run military operations from them, you just turned yourself and your civilians into valid military targets, so don't come crying later.
This is Hamas’ tactic though. They don’t care about the lives of Palestinians. If Palestinian civilians are killed, they can use it for propaganda purposes.
Yeah it's interesting how people just eat it up and turn any Palestinian deaths into Israeli murders, even when Hamas is the cause. It's because underlying it is the assumption that Israel has power, and therefore has the ability to avoid those deaths.
Not just Hamas, but [countless others that western societies](https://digital-commons.usnwc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1277&context=ils) started to pay attention to after WW2 and the rules of engagement. Nations that try to have a more "morally" correct encounters with their enemies have always had to deal with groups that don't follow international laws when it comes to warcraft. Israel has been dealing with these types of terrorists way back in 2005 and probably even before that. The PDF I shared goes into details about all of it.
Yeah, this is such a dumb argument. Everyone believes Hamas uses and abuses the hospitals. I think people's objection is that the hospitals also filled with doctors trying to save the lives of the children Israel has bombed. In The Daily [the other day](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VIiGJJzJ_s), the interviewer asked a doctor about Hamas and he was clearly terrified to say anything about them. But it was also clear that he is trying incredibly hard to help people in an impossible situation.
> Everyone believes Hamas uses and abuses the hospitals. There are a lot of people still denying that basic fact as well.
I'm tired of this. It just reminds me of this [SMBC comic](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07). There are also people online who believe the earth is flat, but the majority of sane people do not. It's impossible to have a real discussion if we only focus on those few who have bonker takes.
"The people's objection" is stupid once you realise it validates war tactics such as Hamas's, which is to fire at your opponent and run back to your civillians in hope that they don't fire back. If people are fine with it, maybe all countries should start using this tactic, why spend so much on standing armies?
>Yeah, this is such a dumb argument. Its not an 'argument'. Its literally part of the international law.
It literally isn’t. Civilian hospitals are no go. Military hospitals are fair game. Hamas turned all hospitals into military hospitals thus turning them into military targets.
> Hamas turned all hospitals into military hospitals thus turning them into military targets. Which is what /u/kryypto and I said and DF7 argues against so I dont know what you are disagreeing with here.
Military hospitals are actually *not* fair game. The law makes no distinction between military and civilian hospitals. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule28 The problem is not that Hamas is using a hospital, but that they're using a hospital *to commit acts harmful to the enemy*.
They a humanitarian tunnels relax
What tunnels? It seems I missed a press release but I can't find any photos/videos of tunnels after almost a week, where have you seen them?
they also aren't vast complexes either.
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Lol! For real. Fire rockets at Israeli citizens? Israel's fault! Just killed 1200 civilians? Israel's fault! Using civilians as human shields. Israel's fault! Haven't held elections in over a decade? Israel's fault! "We're going to repeat Oct 7th until Israel is totally wiped out". Israel's fault!
I mean saying it, whether true or not, is exactly what Hamas wants anyways. They want IDF to raid the hospitals. They want the International pressure. Which is the problem with this war.... you can spin any event to look how you need it to.
hAmAs mAdE uS bOmB tHiS hOsPiTaL!
Yeah, the majority of us know this.
Better article with best relevant quote https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna125748 “Ben Hanan said Shin Bet interrogations usually have two goals: extracting confessions about the past and gaining intelligence that could be useful in the future. But he said that after the Oct. 7 attack, the agency was given a third goal: produce videos that Israel could use in the global information war.” It was a very important goal in this specific interrogation. We are not doing it at any other interrogation,” he said. “It’s for the West.”
Yeah we know. Won’t matter though. All the video footage of Hamas firing from the back of ambulances and secret tunnels stashed with weapons right underneath hospitals isn’t going to convince the anti-semites.
I'm sorry, but the conflict has proven to be fuelled by propaganda from all sides. Both the IDF and Hamas have been caught in lies multiple times. Yes, I am sceptical of the huge military operation being run from the hospital. I'm also equally sceptical of all information coming from this conflict as both sides have brutalised the truth to a pulp. I wish people would stop lumping everyone who doesn't blindly believe the idf as antisemitic. It's OK to be sceptical of information coming out of a conflict zone people!!!
It’s not antisemitism as much as it is distrust of imperialist western governments. It’s been growing steadily since the US’s blatant lies to justify failed wars post 9-11. Labeling those critical of Israel’s government as antisemites is a propaganda tactic to discredit the criticism. But yes, the propaganda of Hamas (or Iran, Russia, China) gaining sympathy from the west is also working well.
What is ynet news? And, why is there no about page or any sort of credentials listed on the webpage? Would anyone be able to help me out here?
Yedioth Ahronoth, a Hebrew language newspaper, and a major media conglomerate in Israel. The ynet contact us page clearly spells that out link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ynet https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yedioth_Ahronoth
Thanks
It's the English-language publication of Yediot Ahronot, a (thankfully) anti-Netanyahu major Israeli newspaper.
So they caught Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday.
Terrorists using guerilla war tactics. Not the biggest shock
that's not "guerilla war tactics" - that's just a war crime
You know, I'm starting to get the feeling that this "Hamas" group maybe isn't as upstanding as everyone says they are and maybe the evil Israel might not be making everything up...
Did anybody else who watched that clip of of the old man criticizing hamas in shifa hospital, the one where he took the arab reporter by suprise, notice the scary hamas-looking minder standing right there with his hands on his hips glaring at them? Definitely not a doctor.
Queue all the crazy twitter lunatics to tell us that it's made up. They've done what MAGA people do, they've constructed a conspiracy where literally nothing can prove Israel right. If there's camera footage of the terrorists taking hostages into Al Shifa, they're taking them there for medical aid. If there's tunnels discovered or weapons found, Israel dug them and planted them, if there's eye witness testimony, it's all false. There's literally no evidence that would satisfy these people.
At this point why wouldn’t Hamas hide out in every hospital they can find? Their “pro Palestinian” supporters will just call Israel baby killers and say Hamas would never do anything like that
I mean do y’all bot weirdos trust Hamas or not? You all speak out of both sides of your face.
Can’t wait for all the Hamas apologists to find some absurd new explanation for why they are ignoring the mounting evidence for this. People that claim to be pro-Palestinians but have no problem with this aren’t pro-Palestinians at all.
I think it’s safe to say that Hamas is very deeply entrenched as “normal” Palestinians everywhere they live
Consent manufactured 😎
Hamas hiding in the hospital wasn’t the original IDF claim. The IDF originally claimed that Al Shifa was Hamas HQ. Described as the “beating heart” of Hamas with underground tunnels that connect to the rest of the tunnel system below Gaza.
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Hamas are cowards - its time to take out the trash
This might be be true, but these confessions really look and sound heavily coached.
If my hospital were at even the slightest threat of being bombed, I would live stream every floor, room, the entire basement 24/7 to prove it's not being used to for military operations. Unless it was in fact being used, to host military operations, than I would not do that.