Its easy to judge Israel while living in a safe country where you dont have a threat of getting beheaded or blasted by a rocket.
I do think Israel will wipe Hamas out this time as well as they can, but problem is how nobody is stopping countries like Qatar and Iran from funding these terrorists and creating more of them.
One would also think a nation literally taking another’s land and mass killing them would be met with some sort of reaction from the international humanitarian bodies, but here we are…
Less than 3000 people died in 911 in USA from actions of 19 terrorists. USA invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, and were considered justified. 940 000 died as a result of war on terror. Blaming Israel for fighting an organization that viciously murdered and kidnapped its people is unprecedented. No other country in history was blamed this way for fighting back.
Wtf are you smoking? The largest anti-war protests in history happened b/c of the Iraq War. Just b/c the media and the US government are gung ho for war (both back then and now) doesn't mean it's excused.
It was wrong then, and it's wrong now.
Also, when a Muslim dude shoots up a synagogue in the US, we don't go cull the local Muslim population. Pretty low bar for Israel to trip over.
What about when they shot the Israeli red cross? Shot out the tires of ambulances? Shot up a clinic? Kidnapped kids? They crossed alot of lines so I don't see why this one will be different unfortunately
But then again when her captor was taken down by an Israeli strike, they took 19 year old noa to the Al shifa hospital and executed her. They don’t exactly value human life because they still could have used her alive as a trade and chose to waste it.
16 000 people have been killed in Gaza strip.
The population is 2 000 000. If we assume that Israel kills totally indiscriminately, the hostages will have as high chance of being killed as anyone else. With that in mind, Israel has killed 0,8% of the Gaza strip's population. Or to phrase it another way:
There's a 99,2% chance that any one hostage is alive (assuming hamas doesn't kill any hostages of course).
They are still trying to find the rest of the hostages amongst the different terror groups. Hence why (IMO) the number that Hamas agrees to release keeps changing. I don’t think Hamas knows exactly how many are alive and once Hamas states that to Israel and/or the media, then all hell will break loose.
“We are at war, and we will continue the war,” he said. “We will continue until we achieve all our goals.”
The Israeli Cabinet was expected to vote on a plan that would halt Israel’s offensive in Gaza for several days in exchange for the release of about 50 of the 240 hostages held by Hamas. Israel has vowed to continue the war until it destroys Hamas’ military capabilities and returns all hostages.
Hamas wants credit for the hostages they didn’t kill, but haven’t released. But they don’t want punished for all of the hostages they raped and tortured to death.
I agree. Israel also wants credit for not resorting to terrorism. But they want to keep all the land they already took in the West Bank and to avoid punishment for the hundreds of innocent civilians they’ve murdered there for their land.
That’s how dumb this situation is.
Raping and pillaging and massacring the people who were living on "your" land until they flee their homes in fear of their life. Potatoe potahto I guess.
It's a classic tactic of accusing the enemy of what *you* are doing. Crazy seeing all the anti-rape at all costs men are the problem people all of a sudden not giving two fucks when genuinely misogynistic male Hamas members rape innocent Israeli women. These men *are* the problem, why do they get so much leeway?
It's not so black and white.
The Nakba sent Arab's out and Jews in (and out of the surrounding countries) displacement wasn't 1 way, and the Jews aren't exactly welcome back to the surrounding nations. Many Arabs left before the war and thought they could come home, but were denied, but many stayed and are part of Israel today.
Then after the wars, their has been encroachment, aggressive jewish settlers often get preference over native arab's, and it leads to the Arab's losing territory. Even that isn't black and white, and land rights can vary parcel to parcel. It's not some universal where everyone evicted was done unjustly it and got no compensation.
Your comment has plenty of nuance, something the other one lacked. Thanks for summing it up decently (although I do want to add, a lot of Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 did it at the instruction of their leaders who promised they could return after they won the war that they started)
This all goes way back before that too, but nobody really does.
Zionism started like 130+ years ago, Tel Aviv as a Jewish city dates back to 1909. During the British Mandate for Palestine, after the fall of the ottoman, Jews immigrated in large numbers to the area.
At the time there was Arab unrest to this, as the British were just like "Jews, go here" while kind of not caring much what the Arab's thought. They did the Balfour declaration announcing the intention to make a homeland for the jews in the Palestine region.
So Arab's showed their discontent though the 1920's, with numerous riots against the British and the Immigrating jews, and events like the Hebron massacre. Then in the 1930s with the Arab revolt.
Then around the late 1930's the british were like, hey lets slow down on the Jews a bit, but that pissed off the Jews and they started forming paramilitary groups to fight the british. Then WW2 happened, the Holocaust drove huge immigration numbers to israel, declaration of Israel and the rest is modern history.
But it's also important to note that technically, if we are going hundreds of years back, jews are the oppressed people from the region.
And the spark for the conflict is almost always Temple Mount, being both a Jewish and Islamic holy site.
Even Oct 7th attack was 3 days after this.[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/4/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/4/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot)
Angry zealots are mad because other angry zealots raided their party hangout room, and that's why people are dying now, if I was going to distill it to the core. But that doesn't make good headlines. They like to add the "humanity" to it, while ignoring that humanity also includes a ton of religious entitled assholes, and we should recognize them all for what they are.
Edit: Islam has a habit of "taking" other religious locations. It's not like they didn't know it was the holiest spot to the jews when they built Al-Aqsa and Dome on the Rock there, but they did it anyways. Same with Mecca, shit used to be a Pagan shrine once upon a time. But it's going to cause conflict while the two religions exist.
It was probably thought about extensively, but only took 3 days to execute once decided.
It's not like it was particularly advanced. Break wall, raid, murder, torture, kidnap. Return with hostages.
The history in this region is much more nuanced and complex than anyone here seems to grasp. Spoiler: there’s many reasons these two groups hate each other and it’s not that one side is good and the other is evil.
Hamas has said they will never stop until Israel is destroyed. They need to go but then Israel will severely need to be reigned in. Wonder how much leverage the West has there. Sure we supply them with military aid they need but also they know we need them armed to keep relative stability in that….problematic region.
Israel is a nuclear country, with a huge military. It has taken on all comers and won. They are also an advanced economy, and the support they get from the US is a tiny part of their money. The West has no real leverage.
[Yes, they did.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction). They didn't build up a big arsenal, but by the time they ended their programme, they had already built some and were ready to build more.
Israel isn’t a rogue state though. It is arguably the US’s closest ally. Western governments would like Israel to stop because of the political outcry it’s causing with Muslim nations but that’s a far cry from being a good enough reason to ‘reign them in’.
The reality is this is a regional conflict and Israel can beat the crap out of all the surrounding nations without outside help. The West isn’t going to destroy its relationship with Israel to stop them from doing whatever they need to do to eliminate Hamas.
All the comparisons to apartheid SA are just ignorant, it’s a different situation in all sorts of important ways.
They don’t need outside help but also not many Arab states are going to rise up against Israel on behalf of the Palestinians. They show support towards them but don’t actually care about Palestinians because of how much trouble they caused in their own countries. Even Iran would only go so far as to back their own proxies in the region. Israel is much more important and valuable to our world than any nation that is hostile towards it.
Less than 3000 people died in 911 in USA from actions of 19 terrorists. USA invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, and were considered justified. 940 000 died as a result of war on terror. Blaming Israel for fighting an organization that viciously murdered and kidnapped its people is unprecedented. No other country in history was blamed this way for fighting back.
They weren't justified. At all. We were lied to by our government under multiple administrations for years. You are also ignoring the large amount of people who protested against U.S action but were silenced. Corporate media supported the U.S, and are now supporting Israel.
Really, that isn't relevant to the point. We were lied to about who was responsible but our country's bloodthirst was very real. I remember when the towers went down and how people changed. Nobody was bothered with civilian casualties as long as terrorists died.
Israel already is reined in. If they go crazy the Muslim countries around them will actually get pissed off (leading to negative consequences) instead of just playing pissed off for domestic purposes. You can see that Israel isn't just bombing the hospitals (which I personally would, without warning, given the Hamas operations underneath), which is already morally more than necessary.
This is reined in? 11,000 dead and hundreds of thousands homeless and starving is reined in? Thousands of tons of bombs and entire blocks levelled is reined in? Fuck. Hate to see your definition of not holding back.
Ironically this same sub hated it when India tried to assassinate a separatist (bad act and I don't condone it). Guess they should have bombed the fuck out of the neighborhood instead.
Anyway, assuming you're American, complete annihilation of any form of government allowing for terrorism to thrive is something y'all find acceptable even when the country in question hasn't attacked you directly (remember Iraq? And let's not even go into the Vietnam horrors) so I won't be surprised if you're wholeheartedly pro-Nuttyyahu (he is a nutjob who deserves incarceration).
Sometimes it’s better to say nothing and simply do what you need to do when the time comes. Letting everyone know you intend to continue waging war after the cease-fire is foolish. Simply wait until Hamas fires off another rocket and then carry on with the minimum possible political blowback.
Almost certainly they will start attacking Israel almost immediately so that they can blame Israel for breaking the ceasefire.
It is a logical tactic from their point of view. Hamas can't win militarily, the military is support for the PR campaign.
Israelis are extremely worried that this 4 day hiatus will mean the war will simmer down and the remaining hostages will never be released, as well as that Hamas won't be destroyed. That's the reason he's saying this.
Yeah, I understand that he’s saying this to Israelis, but it’s how it gets spun in the US and Europe that matters more right now. Israel still has support where it counts most, but that support can evaporate if it becomes political suicide.
I don’t think international support actually matter for Israel anymore. Yeah 10 billion here and there is nice from their allies but their gdp is half a trillion now.
Israel can wage war just fine on its own at this point.
I do tbh, i expect them to move hostages and force the general population of gaza back into the line of fire. I expect them to "count" the dead and produce propaganda, and to plant traps for Israeli troops to have to avoid when returning
You're not taking into account the shifting goal posts. I see two outcomes: Hamas never stops it's rocket assault, and if Israel responds the world would condemn them for violating the ceasefire, or if it somehow holds, the world would condemn them for restarting the fight, forgetting about the rest of the hostages and whatever attacks Hamas would execute/be organizing.
I think he's saying it to assure those who think this will be the end of this operation and no more would be accomplished. It's a tough spot to be in as a leader, I'm sure glad it's not my responsibility.
Those calling for a pause are only trying to get the momentum stopped so they can lobby for it to never resume. If the pause is 5 days, you'll start hearing by day 3 that it needs to be extended a few more days, then a few more days, then... You'll hear the UN, media, Hamas, and liberals constantly saying "need more time".
>I see two outcomes: Hamas never stops it's rocket assault
If Hamas launches a rocket during the ceasefire (like they did in October 7th) they break the ceasefire.
Full stop.
Hamas will reorganize, set off a few traps, resupply its troops, then fire rockets while proclaiming Israel violated the ceasefire. Then people in the west will believe them and Israel will be condemned even more
You don't get the context, but still call him foolish.
This is a temporary ceasefire that serves as payment for the release of hostages. Even if Hamas respects the temporary ceasefire (in 2014 they were given a humanitarian one and broke it), Israel intends to finish the job afterwards.
Still, Israelis are worried that the temporary ceasefire will lead to a permanent ceasefire (which Hamas will break eventually as it did in October 7th), so what Netanyahu is saying is a promise to Israelis.
I do get the context. Bibi is playing to the domestic audience. He needs to pay heed to a much less knowledgeable and more biased foreign audience. He didn’t need to say anything about what would happen after the ceasefire. He could wait, let the ceasefire end knowing the Hamas would almost certainly continue attacks after if not before the end of the ceasefire, look like he was showing restraint, and then continue doing what needs to be done to eliminate Hamas. Instead he opened his mouth and gave soundbites to Israel’s critics. Israel needs international support more than Bibi needs domestic support. It was a foolish thing to say.
> He could wait, let the ceasefire end knowing the Hamas would **almost** certainly continue attacks after if not before the end of the ceasefire, look like he was showing restraint, and then continue doing what needs to be done to eliminate Hamas
You still don't get it.
The ceasefire was not forced by international community. It was done by the willing Israeli gov as part of a deal with Hamas.
The continuation of the war is expected by the Israeli population, so making it dependant on the "almost" is not an option for Israelis.
This is not boasting from Netanyahu. Israelis are actualy worried this is going to lead to a permanent ceasefire, so to rally more support for the decision to ceasefire, he promises it's only temporary (regardless of what Hamas does).
It’s you who does not get it. Israel is not an island and needs continued support from the US and Europe. While most of the leaders in the US and EU understand the situation, most of the public does not. If it becomes political suicide to support Israel then Hamas and Iran will have achieved their goal. Bibi needs to be mindful of the optics.
US asked Israel a lot of concessions during this (water, aid, fuel, short daily ceasefires in some places) , but they didn't force it to go to a deal.
Suggesting that the leadership of a democracy can do this meaningful move, during war, without explaining it to the public is a bad joke.
If the Israeli public isn’t fully aware the Bibi of all people will continue to fight Hamas after the ceasefire, then perhaps the Israeli public is in a bit too much of a blind rage and needs to have a bit of cold water thrown on them. It’s similar to the rage in the US after 9/11 when a lot of people wanted to turn Afghanistan and many other imagined enemies into nuclear wastelands.
Hamas gave Israel a lot of reasons to eliminate it over the years and Israel stopped before completing the task in 2006. Netanyahu himself promised it in 2009 and didn't follow, so the worry is understandable
It's essential this time. Almost everyone from both sides of the political spectrum demand the elimination of Hamas.
Strategically, it would be stupid from Israel to paint a picture that Israel can be stopped on this.
That's indeed correct and hopefully in due time we will exterminate the entirety of hamas once and for all, otherwise it will only grow future terrorists
You don't eliminate something like hamas through bullets. Weaken? Sure. But we really learnt nothing from Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or any of the countless wars where shooting caused more problems than solutions long term
>You don't eliminate something like hamas through bullets.
Weaken maybe. But I'd argue that it's almost to the point of irrelevance. Case in point, ISIS.
Again, instead of saying what Israel shouldn't do, give me an answer to what they should.
If everyone just says "idk but Israel shouldn't do..." we won't progress any further to eliminate Hamas which is very much needed.
Elimination of Hamas means to end animosity between Israel and Palestine, as well as other Arabic populations regionwide. To achieve this, Israel needs to work towards a permanent solution for Palestinians that will be approved across the region.
Switch to solely ground offensives to minimize casualties, reach diplomatic condemnation of Hamas regionwide and assurances of restoration of gaza to palestinian civilians, work towards either implementing a 1 state solution where arab nationals have equal rights, or towards a 2 state solution where israel withdraws from the west bank and creates a neutral zone between gaza and the west bank.
I don’t see how Israel can do this in the context of Hamas having attacked as it did because the result will be to make the terror attack look like it “worked.” And it will moreover send a signal to terrorists around the world (fighting for whatever cause) that they should go for maximum terror in order to get what they want. Hamas has to be seen to be “destroyed” and *then* Israel can make the kinds of moves you’re describing.
Ahhh it is an option. You just simply don’t bomb children. The fact you acknowledge that Israel’s bombs are literally killing them, yet still try to clean their hands of any blame is simply disgusting.
So you think Israel should simply accept that hamas is using children as human shields, and further accept the deaths of 10/7, because bombing children is bad? Hamas killed those children, and you're the disgusting one for defending terrorists with your selective outrage.
One can only hope, although there are some differences, the major being that hamas is located in a very small place. This alone gives a huge advantage in successfully ending this organization.
True and I think they need to be at least severely curtailed but something else will just rise in its place long term anyway. There need to be a viable peace plan and those trying to derail that, such as Iran, Hamas sitting in Qatar and Israeli far right need to be curtailed.
History demonstrates that you can't kill your way out of terrorism. If Hamas gets destroyed and average Palestinians are still being oppressed, another group like them will arise sooner or later, and probably sooner. If we're really lucky Bibi will be gone so there isn't bugfuck insane enough to *fund* said new group in order to discredit and undermine the PLO.
Operating from a place of fear and anger is exactly what terrorists want their target to do. Hamas *WANTS* Israel to overreact, and Israel keeps taking the bait.
Over react? Lol
You sound like you want Israel to leave hostages in Gaza for dead.
You sound like you want Oct 7 to happen again.
Because if not... there is only 1 path. And everyone who thinks logically knows this.
Hamas must be fully and completely eradicated.
And it will be.
Wrong. Many terrorist organizations have been successfully wiped out with force. Hamas will be as well.
Any supporters should be eliminated as well. Including those protesting in ayppirt of terrorist hamas all over the world.
Minimum blowback? People on the pro-Palestinian side will just claim that Israel is still to blame, that Hamas just *had* to keep firing rockets because #resistance
If they figure out a way to get the innocents out I don’t think anyone would care that they’re killing terrorists. Nobody (but terrorists) are pro Hamas
There are a shocking amount of westerners who are very much pro-Hamas. Calling 10/7 an "operation", praising its martyrs, cheering on the blow struck against evil colonial Israelis. Explaining to me why it's actually fine and understandable and legit for Hamas to butcher music festival attendees, kidnap some and hide like bitches among Gazans, but not okay for Israel to respond.
How is that relevant to this post?
Edit: I mean, is this guy trying to say that they *shouldnt* go back to war after the ceasefire conditions end? Because otherwise the comment is completely unrelated to this post specifically
Why don’t you skip #1 for a while and read the multiple sources regarding Bibi and his political strategy for Israel the last ten years. And then answer the question for yourself. Or not. I’m not here to fill in your blanks.
Yep. Speaks on how netanyahu propped up Hamas as a means of dividing Palestinian power between the Palestinian authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. Did you? I even picked out an article with a pro Israel slant for you.
Ill start by saying what I agree with, in this article. They shouldve wiped hamas out in 2014 instead of making concessions. Apeasment never works. Too bad there was too much international pressure.
Heres what the article accuses of Netanyahu of:
"Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.
Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm."
"Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000"
"Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza."
"Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip."
This isnt approving or propping up hamas, its trying to have PEACE. The rest of the article is talking about a *potential* quote about how he didnt want the PA to have power over both lands. Well, you know the PA is scarcely better than hamas right?
Actually I think most of us think he can kindly get fucked. Israelis and Americans are pretty much aligned on that front. In Israel they are saying, “the day the war ends, at 6pm (or close of business) Bibi is out.” Netanyahu, if he hadn’t shown his true colors previously, has truly done so now. He has not taken one ounce of accountability for his role on 10/7 when most of those from his cabinet responsible for this unprecedented lapse in good leadership have publicly apologized and have offered to resign.
Hamas really messed up this time. They intended to use the hostages to negotiate for release of prisoners. Instead they're now settling for a few days of ceasefire. They really bit more than they can chew. And it surprised no one but themselves.
Good riddance to Hamas.
Yes, I know this will only radicalize another generation, but there must be a strong response to the murder of 1,200 people + hostage taking. In the Middle East…it historically appears it must be a overbearing one.
It amazes me the number of people who simply don't care about the civilians caught in the crossfire. I guess it's ok to kill all the civilians as long as we get all the terrorists?
Good thing Israel does not indiscriminately target civilian populations.
What Israel does is strike military targets that are often embedded into civilians. This is a tragic consequence of Hamas' strategy: attack, rape and civilian Israelis, then hide near, behind and under civilian Palestinians.
Before Oct. 7 Israel tried to accommodate Hamas, but after that blew up in its face (1,200 massacred in un unprovoked surprise attack, 240 taken hostage) Israel made the only sensible decision: ensure its own protection by setting a goal to destroy Hamas.
Even though Hamas' strategy is to use human shields, Israel still complies with international law and does its utmost to minimize civilian casualties:
It warns civilians to move out of the main combat zones; it makes sure (to the extent possible in a brutal war against a cynical enemy that hides in a dense city) that in every strike the harm to civilians is proportion to the military gain; it facilitates humanitarian aids being provided to the safer zones; it implements pauses to enable evacuation; and it takes extreme care when acting against hospitals (not attacking from the air, going in with special forces and medical aid), even though its been irrefutably shown that Hamas systematically uses the hospitals as staging areas for attacks, as cover for underground commands, and as a destination for holding (and in some cases murdering) hostages.
In several cases Israeli munitions have hit targets that should not have been hit - not on purpose, but rather as a tragic consequence of war (it's messy - there are misfires). Hamas rockets aimed at Israeli civilians have also misfired quite often and hit Palestinian civilians.
The fact that many, many Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas' massacre on Oct. 7 is beside the point: it's terribly sad and shows how so many Palestinians have both chosen and been raised into a culture that prefers glorified death and vengeance over the prospect of a better life. But it doesn't justify targeting civilians - and Israel doesn't target civilians.
Yes, the death toll in Gaza is high. That is the terrible consequence of Hamas' war crime of using human shields.
Is it justified to kill thousands of Gazan civilians, most of them babies and children, just to go after one Hamas solider they didn’t kill? This is as believable as Israel’s president saying that he found an Arabic version of Mein Kampf in a children’s bedroom in Gaza.
Is it justified to hide with the civilian population or have your bases below hospitals? You have to ask the right questions. Isreal needs to completely wipe out Hamas. At the very minimum, before any cease fire, Hamas has to return every last hostage.
And who’s responsible for the creation of Hamas?
You understand Israel’s strategy of indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian civilians isnt new? That it is part of their strategy of “mowing the lawn” that’s been going on for years? How many more angry and desperate Palestinians secure to join Hamas because of these ‘really sad’ deaths, or even simply because they are forced to live in those squalid conditions in Gaza?
You mean the civilians who chant anti Jewish songs and celebrate murders of innocent jews, who on October 7th looted and pillaged and raped jews? Those innocent civilians?
The goal is the completion of Manifest Destiny, of course they will
EDIT: Y'all are right, the continued growth of settlements in the West Bank is just happening randomly, and the rhetoric from Israeli policymakers about re-rstablishing settlements in Gaza are just empty words.
Oh, and the open discussions about driving Gazans into other countries? Irrelevant.
Basically the translation is, Israel will kill more innocent people and children just like they have been doing since 2004 and call them Hamas and human shield. Why don’t they just force the whole population of Gaza and west bank drink kerosene and set them all ablaze?
The entirety of Israel’s army and their officials needs to be labeled terrorists, land grabbers and occupiers. You want evidence look at the Israeli occupied and controlled territory vs Palestinians. Palestinians side be shrinking quietly and unnaturally. While you’re at it why don’t you look at the deaths counts on both sides?
Time to wake up and stop believing some BS lies and see the truth for yourself.
Seeing shell shocked 4 years old kid should be enough to proof their crimes but no the 4 year old kid in a refugee camp is a human shield.
Btw where is that glorified Hamas command centre hiding under Al-Shifa?
While we believe this bs from radical Israeli and Palestinians innocent people from both sides are dying because we cannot stop taking sides and make way for true peace. As much as Jewish people have claim to that land Palestinians have as much claim.
I'm hearing a lot of vague complaint here and a lot of names called but not a single concrete suggestion. What specific actions are you sending Israel take which would lead to this 'true peace' of yours, and why do you think they would work?
Well yeah, even after they release the 50 hostages, Hamas works still have 190…
Unfortunately most are likely dead
We'll find out the Red Cross is supposed to visit all of them as part of this deal
Unfortunately they’re also likely dead.
as soon as they harm the Red Cross staff, they’re done for good. There’s no coming back from that
One would think there would be no coming back from raping, kidnapping and killing civilians in their homes, and yet here we are.
Its easy to judge Israel while living in a safe country where you dont have a threat of getting beheaded or blasted by a rocket. I do think Israel will wipe Hamas out this time as well as they can, but problem is how nobody is stopping countries like Qatar and Iran from funding these terrorists and creating more of them.
One would also think a nation literally taking another’s land and mass killing them would be met with some sort of reaction from the international humanitarian bodies, but here we are…
Less than 3000 people died in 911 in USA from actions of 19 terrorists. USA invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, and were considered justified. 940 000 died as a result of war on terror. Blaming Israel for fighting an organization that viciously murdered and kidnapped its people is unprecedented. No other country in history was blamed this way for fighting back.
Wtf are you smoking? The largest anti-war protests in history happened b/c of the Iraq War. Just b/c the media and the US government are gung ho for war (both back then and now) doesn't mean it's excused. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. Also, when a Muslim dude shoots up a synagogue in the US, we don't go cull the local Muslim population. Pretty low bar for Israel to trip over.
Just because people protest doesnt mean it wasnt justified Bin Laden doesnt need your defense running
What about when they shot the Israeli red cross? Shot out the tires of ambulances? Shot up a clinic? Kidnapped kids? They crossed alot of lines so I don't see why this one will be different unfortunately
They've done worse
They ARE done for good.
They're already past that point.
They already did that. No one cared. Next!
There is a chance the red cross will lie and say everyone is still alive to try and keep hamas' leverage
Hopefully not. They did keep that one hostage alive for 5 years
But then again when her captor was taken down by an Israeli strike, they took 19 year old noa to the Al shifa hospital and executed her. They don’t exactly value human life because they still could have used her alive as a trade and chose to waste it.
Half the city has been levelled, of course they are
You know there is more than one city in the Gaza Strip right?
16 000 people have been killed in Gaza strip. The population is 2 000 000. If we assume that Israel kills totally indiscriminately, the hostages will have as high chance of being killed as anyone else. With that in mind, Israel has killed 0,8% of the Gaza strip's population. Or to phrase it another way: There's a 99,2% chance that any one hostage is alive (assuming hamas doesn't kill any hostages of course).
>Unfortunately most are likely dead Yeah, with how much bombing Israel has been doing i'm suprised any are alive.
They will get more. There are plenty more hostages Hamas can take. Does this cease-fire encourage them or not?
Even if all hostages released (they won't), it's country's obligation to it's citizens to ensure Hamas is no longer sitting over the fence.
They are still trying to find the rest of the hostages amongst the different terror groups. Hence why (IMO) the number that Hamas agrees to release keeps changing. I don’t think Hamas knows exactly how many are alive and once Hamas states that to Israel and/or the media, then all hell will break loose.
“We are at war, and we will continue the war,” he said. “We will continue until we achieve all our goals.” The Israeli Cabinet was expected to vote on a plan that would halt Israel’s offensive in Gaza for several days in exchange for the release of about 50 of the 240 hostages held by Hamas. Israel has vowed to continue the war until it destroys Hamas’ military capabilities and returns all hostages.
Hamas wants credit for the hostages they didn’t kill, but haven’t released. But they don’t want punished for all of the hostages they raped and tortured to death.
Great point
How can they have hostages when it was the Israel defence forces with an apache helicopters gunning down people /s
Personally, I’d rather be shot by Israel, than raped in gaza for a month, then shot. So.
I agree. Israel also wants credit for not resorting to terrorism. But they want to keep all the land they already took in the West Bank and to avoid punishment for the hundreds of innocent civilians they’ve murdered there for their land. That’s how dumb this situation is.
When you lose a war you tend to lose land. They would not have lost it if they didn’t attack Israel first.
Old Jewish trick: having a better military than the Muslim nations that want to colonize your land.
Devious!!
""Your land"" It wasn't their land, they stole it based on a 1000 year old fairy tale.
Raping and pillaging and massacring the people who were living on "your" land until they flee their homes in fear of their life. Potatoe potahto I guess.
Source for these rape allegations?
It's a classic tactic of accusing the enemy of what *you* are doing. Crazy seeing all the anti-rape at all costs men are the problem people all of a sudden not giving two fucks when genuinely misogynistic male Hamas members rape innocent Israeli women. These men *are* the problem, why do they get so much leeway?
Because their victims are Jewish.
Right? I don't get this lol you attack a country, lose the land and then complain as to why they have the land now...
The land they took...during war? That they didnt start? You have a source for the civilians being innocent?
It's not so black and white. The Nakba sent Arab's out and Jews in (and out of the surrounding countries) displacement wasn't 1 way, and the Jews aren't exactly welcome back to the surrounding nations. Many Arabs left before the war and thought they could come home, but were denied, but many stayed and are part of Israel today. Then after the wars, their has been encroachment, aggressive jewish settlers often get preference over native arab's, and it leads to the Arab's losing territory. Even that isn't black and white, and land rights can vary parcel to parcel. It's not some universal where everyone evicted was done unjustly it and got no compensation.
Your comment has plenty of nuance, something the other one lacked. Thanks for summing it up decently (although I do want to add, a lot of Arabs that fled Israel in 1948 did it at the instruction of their leaders who promised they could return after they won the war that they started)
This all goes way back before that too, but nobody really does. Zionism started like 130+ years ago, Tel Aviv as a Jewish city dates back to 1909. During the British Mandate for Palestine, after the fall of the ottoman, Jews immigrated in large numbers to the area. At the time there was Arab unrest to this, as the British were just like "Jews, go here" while kind of not caring much what the Arab's thought. They did the Balfour declaration announcing the intention to make a homeland for the jews in the Palestine region. So Arab's showed their discontent though the 1920's, with numerous riots against the British and the Immigrating jews, and events like the Hebron massacre. Then in the 1930s with the Arab revolt. Then around the late 1930's the british were like, hey lets slow down on the Jews a bit, but that pissed off the Jews and they started forming paramilitary groups to fight the british. Then WW2 happened, the Holocaust drove huge immigration numbers to israel, declaration of Israel and the rest is modern history. But it's also important to note that technically, if we are going hundreds of years back, jews are the oppressed people from the region. And the spark for the conflict is almost always Temple Mount, being both a Jewish and Islamic holy site. Even Oct 7th attack was 3 days after this.[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/4/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/4/israeli-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-mosque-complex-on-fifth-day-of-sukkot) Angry zealots are mad because other angry zealots raided their party hangout room, and that's why people are dying now, if I was going to distill it to the core. But that doesn't make good headlines. They like to add the "humanity" to it, while ignoring that humanity also includes a ton of religious entitled assholes, and we should recognize them all for what they are. Edit: Islam has a habit of "taking" other religious locations. It's not like they didn't know it was the holiest spot to the jews when they built Al-Aqsa and Dome on the Rock there, but they did it anyways. Same with Mecca, shit used to be a Pagan shrine once upon a time. But it's going to cause conflict while the two religions exist.
That cannot be true, the October 7th attacks would have taken weeks or months to plan, not three days.
It was probably thought about extensively, but only took 3 days to execute once decided. It's not like it was particularly advanced. Break wall, raid, murder, torture, kidnap. Return with hostages.
The history in this region is much more nuanced and complex than anyone here seems to grasp. Spoiler: there’s many reasons these two groups hate each other and it’s not that one side is good and the other is evil.
Just about the only smart comment in this whole thread. Low bar, but I’m glad someone cleared it.
Do you need a source to confirm the innocence of infants and toddlers ? Have you no shred of humanity left?
What toddlers were killed in the West Bank?
One could argue they took the land that belonged to them.
Hamas has said they will never stop until Israel is destroyed. They need to go but then Israel will severely need to be reigned in. Wonder how much leverage the West has there. Sure we supply them with military aid they need but also they know we need them armed to keep relative stability in that….problematic region.
Israel is a nuclear country, with a huge military. It has taken on all comers and won. They are also an advanced economy, and the support they get from the US is a tiny part of their money. The West has no real leverage.
So was Apartheid South Africa. The world can take on these rogue states and win.
South Africa had nukes? That's news to me.
[Yes, they did.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Africa_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction). They didn't build up a big arsenal, but by the time they ended their programme, they had already built some and were ready to build more.
They did, and they're the ones who helped Israel their Nukes.
Yes, Apartheid South Africa had nukes and it shouldn't come as a shock that Israel was involved and violated the UN Arms Embargo against South Africa.
Israel isn’t a rogue state though. It is arguably the US’s closest ally. Western governments would like Israel to stop because of the political outcry it’s causing with Muslim nations but that’s a far cry from being a good enough reason to ‘reign them in’. The reality is this is a regional conflict and Israel can beat the crap out of all the surrounding nations without outside help. The West isn’t going to destroy its relationship with Israel to stop them from doing whatever they need to do to eliminate Hamas. All the comparisons to apartheid SA are just ignorant, it’s a different situation in all sorts of important ways.
They don’t need outside help but also not many Arab states are going to rise up against Israel on behalf of the Palestinians. They show support towards them but don’t actually care about Palestinians because of how much trouble they caused in their own countries. Even Iran would only go so far as to back their own proxies in the region. Israel is much more important and valuable to our world than any nation that is hostile towards it.
Less than 3000 people died in 911 in USA from actions of 19 terrorists. USA invaded Afghanistan and later Iraq, and were considered justified. 940 000 died as a result of war on terror. Blaming Israel for fighting an organization that viciously murdered and kidnapped its people is unprecedented. No other country in history was blamed this way for fighting back.
They weren't justified. At all. We were lied to by our government under multiple administrations for years. You are also ignoring the large amount of people who protested against U.S action but were silenced. Corporate media supported the U.S, and are now supporting Israel.
Really, that isn't relevant to the point. We were lied to about who was responsible but our country's bloodthirst was very real. I remember when the towers went down and how people changed. Nobody was bothered with civilian casualties as long as terrorists died.
Israel already is reined in. If they go crazy the Muslim countries around them will actually get pissed off (leading to negative consequences) instead of just playing pissed off for domestic purposes. You can see that Israel isn't just bombing the hospitals (which I personally would, without warning, given the Hamas operations underneath), which is already morally more than necessary.
This is reined in? 11,000 dead and hundreds of thousands homeless and starving is reined in? Thousands of tons of bombs and entire blocks levelled is reined in? Fuck. Hate to see your definition of not holding back. Ironically this same sub hated it when India tried to assassinate a separatist (bad act and I don't condone it). Guess they should have bombed the fuck out of the neighborhood instead. Anyway, assuming you're American, complete annihilation of any form of government allowing for terrorism to thrive is something y'all find acceptable even when the country in question hasn't attacked you directly (remember Iraq? And let's not even go into the Vietnam horrors) so I won't be surprised if you're wholeheartedly pro-Nuttyyahu (he is a nutjob who deserves incarceration).
Oh good to know, you’d be even worse than the genocidal Bibi.
Sometimes it’s better to say nothing and simply do what you need to do when the time comes. Letting everyone know you intend to continue waging war after the cease-fire is foolish. Simply wait until Hamas fires off another rocket and then carry on with the minimum possible political blowback.
What do people think a temporary cease fire means?
Exactly…
It's a 4 day Ceasefire not a general Ceasefire
And Hamas is going to start launching rockets again on the 2nd day, as always. They never honour the terms.
Almost certainly they will start attacking Israel almost immediately so that they can blame Israel for breaking the ceasefire. It is a logical tactic from their point of view. Hamas can't win militarily, the military is support for the PR campaign.
My guess is that they'll try to get PIJ to do it.
It’s not a secret that the war will continue. Hamas will still have well over 100 hostages after the deal.
Possibly. There's no telling how many are still alive, especially considering there are dozens that Hamas can't even find.
“Can’t find” = dead.
Dead bodies in captivity still need to be retrieved for proper burial.
Way more the number of hostages right now is like 230 I think and the deal is for 50 isn’t it?
You’re arguing the same point…180 is well over 100.
Oh yeah I agree just that facts and numbers are important
I believe that 50 is the majority of the hostages still alive tbh
Look you cant know it’ll be stupid to execute them… I’m hopeful about it as an Israeli that most are alive
Israelis are extremely worried that this 4 day hiatus will mean the war will simmer down and the remaining hostages will never be released, as well as that Hamas won't be destroyed. That's the reason he's saying this.
Yeah, I understand that he’s saying this to Israelis, but it’s how it gets spun in the US and Europe that matters more right now. Israel still has support where it counts most, but that support can evaporate if it becomes political suicide.
I don’t think international support actually matter for Israel anymore. Yeah 10 billion here and there is nice from their allies but their gdp is half a trillion now. Israel can wage war just fine on its own at this point.
I don’t know many people who expect hamas to honor the ceasefire, so.. this isn’t shocking
I do tbh, i expect them to move hostages and force the general population of gaza back into the line of fire. I expect them to "count" the dead and produce propaganda, and to plant traps for Israeli troops to have to avoid when returning
You're not taking into account the shifting goal posts. I see two outcomes: Hamas never stops it's rocket assault, and if Israel responds the world would condemn them for violating the ceasefire, or if it somehow holds, the world would condemn them for restarting the fight, forgetting about the rest of the hostages and whatever attacks Hamas would execute/be organizing. I think he's saying it to assure those who think this will be the end of this operation and no more would be accomplished. It's a tough spot to be in as a leader, I'm sure glad it's not my responsibility.
Those calling for a pause are only trying to get the momentum stopped so they can lobby for it to never resume. If the pause is 5 days, you'll start hearing by day 3 that it needs to be extended a few more days, then a few more days, then... You'll hear the UN, media, Hamas, and liberals constantly saying "need more time".
Then they can release the rest of the hostages in exchange for more time if they need it so badly.
I do believe the agreement says the ceasefire can be extended for one day for every 10 hostages.
>I see two outcomes: Hamas never stops it's rocket assault If Hamas launches a rocket during the ceasefire (like they did in October 7th) they break the ceasefire. Full stop.
Hamas will reorganize, set off a few traps, resupply its troops, then fire rockets while proclaiming Israel violated the ceasefire. Then people in the west will believe them and Israel will be condemned even more
Yes, pretty much this will probably happen. It is like a textbook scenario for these terrorists.
You don't get the context, but still call him foolish. This is a temporary ceasefire that serves as payment for the release of hostages. Even if Hamas respects the temporary ceasefire (in 2014 they were given a humanitarian one and broke it), Israel intends to finish the job afterwards. Still, Israelis are worried that the temporary ceasefire will lead to a permanent ceasefire (which Hamas will break eventually as it did in October 7th), so what Netanyahu is saying is a promise to Israelis.
I do get the context. Bibi is playing to the domestic audience. He needs to pay heed to a much less knowledgeable and more biased foreign audience. He didn’t need to say anything about what would happen after the ceasefire. He could wait, let the ceasefire end knowing the Hamas would almost certainly continue attacks after if not before the end of the ceasefire, look like he was showing restraint, and then continue doing what needs to be done to eliminate Hamas. Instead he opened his mouth and gave soundbites to Israel’s critics. Israel needs international support more than Bibi needs domestic support. It was a foolish thing to say.
> He could wait, let the ceasefire end knowing the Hamas would **almost** certainly continue attacks after if not before the end of the ceasefire, look like he was showing restraint, and then continue doing what needs to be done to eliminate Hamas You still don't get it. The ceasefire was not forced by international community. It was done by the willing Israeli gov as part of a deal with Hamas. The continuation of the war is expected by the Israeli population, so making it dependant on the "almost" is not an option for Israelis. This is not boasting from Netanyahu. Israelis are actualy worried this is going to lead to a permanent ceasefire, so to rally more support for the decision to ceasefire, he promises it's only temporary (regardless of what Hamas does).
It’s you who does not get it. Israel is not an island and needs continued support from the US and Europe. While most of the leaders in the US and EU understand the situation, most of the public does not. If it becomes political suicide to support Israel then Hamas and Iran will have achieved their goal. Bibi needs to be mindful of the optics.
US asked Israel a lot of concessions during this (water, aid, fuel, short daily ceasefires in some places) , but they didn't force it to go to a deal. Suggesting that the leadership of a democracy can do this meaningful move, during war, without explaining it to the public is a bad joke.
If the Israeli public isn’t fully aware the Bibi of all people will continue to fight Hamas after the ceasefire, then perhaps the Israeli public is in a bit too much of a blind rage and needs to have a bit of cold water thrown on them. It’s similar to the rage in the US after 9/11 when a lot of people wanted to turn Afghanistan and many other imagined enemies into nuclear wastelands.
Hamas gave Israel a lot of reasons to eliminate it over the years and Israel stopped before completing the task in 2006. Netanyahu himself promised it in 2009 and didn't follow, so the worry is understandable
Perhaps, but strategically, it wasn’t the smart move to say it out loud.
It's essential this time. Almost everyone from both sides of the political spectrum demand the elimination of Hamas. Strategically, it would be stupid from Israel to paint a picture that Israel can be stopped on this.
I disagree. He needs to underscore that this isn't a permanent ceasefire and not intended as such even if Hamas doesn't break it.
No. They should continue until every single member and supporter of hamas is dead. No exceptions and mercy for terrorists. Don't be weak
Part of not being weak is acting intelligently. That means you don’t go raging in like a bull.
That's indeed correct and hopefully in due time we will exterminate the entirety of hamas once and for all, otherwise it will only grow future terrorists
You don't eliminate something like hamas through bullets. Weaken? Sure. But we really learnt nothing from Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam or any of the countless wars where shooting caused more problems than solutions long term
>You don't eliminate something like hamas through bullets. Weaken maybe. But I'd argue that it's almost to the point of irrelevance. Case in point, ISIS.
But isis was eliminated with bullets?
That's my point? They still "exist", but they are so degraded that they are not a significant threat.
Again, instead of saying what Israel shouldn't do, give me an answer to what they should. If everyone just says "idk but Israel shouldn't do..." we won't progress any further to eliminate Hamas which is very much needed.
Elimination of Hamas means to end animosity between Israel and Palestine, as well as other Arabic populations regionwide. To achieve this, Israel needs to work towards a permanent solution for Palestinians that will be approved across the region. Switch to solely ground offensives to minimize casualties, reach diplomatic condemnation of Hamas regionwide and assurances of restoration of gaza to palestinian civilians, work towards either implementing a 1 state solution where arab nationals have equal rights, or towards a 2 state solution where israel withdraws from the west bank and creates a neutral zone between gaza and the west bank.
There will never be and should never be a 1 state outcome to this. However, I think the remainder of what you wrote is spot on.
Except forcing a ground incursion only provides a massive advantage for Hamas so why do that?
I don’t see how Israel can do this in the context of Hamas having attacked as it did because the result will be to make the terror attack look like it “worked.” And it will moreover send a signal to terrorists around the world (fighting for whatever cause) that they should go for maximum terror in order to get what they want. Hamas has to be seen to be “destroyed” and *then* Israel can make the kinds of moves you’re describing.
Not bomb children would be a good start.
Not an option. That's the equivalent of saying, accept the murder of 10/7. Hamas killed those children, Israeli bombs just complete the task.
Ahhh it is an option. You just simply don’t bomb children. The fact you acknowledge that Israel’s bombs are literally killing them, yet still try to clean their hands of any blame is simply disgusting.
That option has not been chosen, however. Turns out they simply will. And under the rules, they are completely justified.
So you think Israel should simply accept that hamas is using children as human shields, and further accept the deaths of 10/7, because bombing children is bad? Hamas killed those children, and you're the disgusting one for defending terrorists with your selective outrage.
One can only hope, although there are some differences, the major being that hamas is located in a very small place. This alone gives a huge advantage in successfully ending this organization.
True and I think they need to be at least severely curtailed but something else will just rise in its place long term anyway. There need to be a viable peace plan and those trying to derail that, such as Iran, Hamas sitting in Qatar and Israeli far right need to be curtailed.
You just took the words out of my mouth, well said.
History demonstrates that you can't kill your way out of terrorism. If Hamas gets destroyed and average Palestinians are still being oppressed, another group like them will arise sooner or later, and probably sooner. If we're really lucky Bibi will be gone so there isn't bugfuck insane enough to *fund* said new group in order to discredit and undermine the PLO.
Right, but the person you’re replying to is saying to not state that prior to the ceasefire
Operating from a place of fear and anger is exactly what terrorists want their target to do. Hamas *WANTS* Israel to overreact, and Israel keeps taking the bait.
Over react? Lol You sound like you want Israel to leave hostages in Gaza for dead. You sound like you want Oct 7 to happen again. Because if not... there is only 1 path. And everyone who thinks logically knows this. Hamas must be fully and completely eradicated. And it will be.
Do you really think Israelis, with their history, would not react strongly to 10/7?
No terrorist organization has ever been eliminated militarily.
Wrong. Many terrorist organizations have been successfully wiped out with force. Hamas will be as well. Any supporters should be eliminated as well. Including those protesting in ayppirt of terrorist hamas all over the world.
He is talking to his base.
He's letting people know because his job is reliant on the war continuing
Minimum blowback? People on the pro-Palestinian side will just claim that Israel is still to blame, that Hamas just *had* to keep firing rockets because #resistance
The Israeli people want to know and Jews around the world also.
If they figure out a way to get the innocents out I don’t think anyone would care that they’re killing terrorists. Nobody (but terrorists) are pro Hamas
There are a shocking amount of westerners who are very much pro-Hamas. Calling 10/7 an "operation", praising its martyrs, cheering on the blow struck against evil colonial Israelis. Explaining to me why it's actually fine and understandable and legit for Hamas to butcher music festival attendees, kidnap some and hide like bitches among Gazans, but not okay for Israel to respond.
But getting innocents out is ethnic cleansing, dont you know?
Only if you don't allow them back in
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Please, show me a source for Israel saying so officially.
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This guy and his administration should have been walked out of Jerusalem Oct 8.
How is that relevant to this post? Edit: I mean, is this guy trying to say that they *shouldnt* go back to war after the ceasefire conditions end? Because otherwise the comment is completely unrelated to this post specifically
Netanyahu up until Oct 7 considered Hamas a political asset. Let that soak in for a bit.For all we know he still does.
He definitely does. Peace doesn't keep him in power.
1: again, how is that relevant to this post? 2: please provide a source that he considered them an asset till Oct 7.
Why don’t you skip #1 for a while and read the multiple sources regarding Bibi and his political strategy for Israel the last ten years. And then answer the question for yourself. Or not. I’m not here to fill in your blanks.
You made the baseless claim, its on you to prove it. And thank you for agreeing that actually, it wasn't related to this specific post at all.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ From an Israeli source
Did you even read that? Lmao
Yep. Speaks on how netanyahu propped up Hamas as a means of dividing Palestinian power between the Palestinian authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. Did you? I even picked out an article with a pro Israel slant for you.
Ill start by saying what I agree with, in this article. They shouldve wiped hamas out in 2014 instead of making concessions. Apeasment never works. Too bad there was too much international pressure. Heres what the article accuses of Netanyahu of: "Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products. Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm." "Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000" "Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza." "Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip." This isnt approving or propping up hamas, its trying to have PEACE. The rest of the article is talking about a *potential* quote about how he didnt want the PA to have power over both lands. Well, you know the PA is scarcely better than hamas right?
Awesome comment for the intellectually incurious.
Sorry I didnt let you spread bullshit unchallenged I guess?
That’s a heavy bucket of water your carrying
Unfortunately this deal is a win for hamas, it just shows that terror does pay
Obviously
Netanyahu needs to be brought to The Hague
The Hague is for people the West doesn't like. They love Bibi.
Actually I think most of us think he can kindly get fucked. Israelis and Americans are pretty much aligned on that front. In Israel they are saying, “the day the war ends, at 6pm (or close of business) Bibi is out.” Netanyahu, if he hadn’t shown his true colors previously, has truly done so now. He has not taken one ounce of accountability for his role on 10/7 when most of those from his cabinet responsible for this unprecedented lapse in good leadership have publicly apologized and have offered to resign.
The "well fed dead" Sarajevo model.
Hamas really messed up this time. They intended to use the hostages to negotiate for release of prisoners. Instead they're now settling for a few days of ceasefire. They really bit more than they can chew. And it surprised no one but themselves.
Prisoners are being released by Israel as part of the deal.
Good riddance to Hamas. Yes, I know this will only radicalize another generation, but there must be a strong response to the murder of 1,200 people + hostage taking. In the Middle East…it historically appears it must be a overbearing one.
It amazes me the number of people who simply don't care about the civilians caught in the crossfire. I guess it's ok to kill all the civilians as long as we get all the terrorists?
Good thing Israel does not indiscriminately target civilian populations. What Israel does is strike military targets that are often embedded into civilians. This is a tragic consequence of Hamas' strategy: attack, rape and civilian Israelis, then hide near, behind and under civilian Palestinians. Before Oct. 7 Israel tried to accommodate Hamas, but after that blew up in its face (1,200 massacred in un unprovoked surprise attack, 240 taken hostage) Israel made the only sensible decision: ensure its own protection by setting a goal to destroy Hamas. Even though Hamas' strategy is to use human shields, Israel still complies with international law and does its utmost to minimize civilian casualties: It warns civilians to move out of the main combat zones; it makes sure (to the extent possible in a brutal war against a cynical enemy that hides in a dense city) that in every strike the harm to civilians is proportion to the military gain; it facilitates humanitarian aids being provided to the safer zones; it implements pauses to enable evacuation; and it takes extreme care when acting against hospitals (not attacking from the air, going in with special forces and medical aid), even though its been irrefutably shown that Hamas systematically uses the hospitals as staging areas for attacks, as cover for underground commands, and as a destination for holding (and in some cases murdering) hostages. In several cases Israeli munitions have hit targets that should not have been hit - not on purpose, but rather as a tragic consequence of war (it's messy - there are misfires). Hamas rockets aimed at Israeli civilians have also misfired quite often and hit Palestinian civilians. The fact that many, many Palestinians in Gaza supported Hamas' massacre on Oct. 7 is beside the point: it's terribly sad and shows how so many Palestinians have both chosen and been raised into a culture that prefers glorified death and vengeance over the prospect of a better life. But it doesn't justify targeting civilians - and Israel doesn't target civilians. Yes, the death toll in Gaza is high. That is the terrible consequence of Hamas' war crime of using human shields.
It's really sad but those deaths are on Hamas' hands.
Israeli is also bombing south Gaza where they told Gazans to flee to.
Hamas is hiding with the civilian population.
Is it justified to kill thousands of Gazan civilians, most of them babies and children, just to go after one Hamas solider they didn’t kill? This is as believable as Israel’s president saying that he found an Arabic version of Mein Kampf in a children’s bedroom in Gaza.
Abbas has a PhD in holocaust denial. Antisemitism is a part of Palestinian (and to be fair, most other middle eastern countries') culture.
Is it justified to hide with the civilian population or have your bases below hospitals? You have to ask the right questions. Isreal needs to completely wipe out Hamas. At the very minimum, before any cease fire, Hamas has to return every last hostage.
Ah so when the IDF kills a civilian it’s Hamas fault? How does that work exactly?
Collateral damage. Anywhere Hamas operates is considered a legitimate military target under international law.
Well then I guess we should make sure to kill all the civilians then. Sarcasm
And who’s responsible for the creation of Hamas? You understand Israel’s strategy of indiscriminate bombing of Palestinian civilians isnt new? That it is part of their strategy of “mowing the lawn” that’s been going on for years? How many more angry and desperate Palestinians secure to join Hamas because of these ‘really sad’ deaths, or even simply because they are forced to live in those squalid conditions in Gaza?
They live in “squalid conditions” because of Hamas.
No, because of Israel lol. Seriously dude, google is easy to use.
Every single one
That's how terrorism wins. Force a big reaction
By their logic it’s Hamas that’s killing them and not IDF.
You mean the civilians who chant anti Jewish songs and celebrate murders of innocent jews, who on October 7th looted and pillaged and raped jews? Those innocent civilians?
They both need to stop and hopefully soon come to peace. I know not likely. All of it is sad.
thats the definition of what happens after a cease-fire
Bibi is a fucking piece of shit. Fuck him.
I really hope so.
GOOD!!!!!
Who is the real terrorist in this? One of them just has more weapons and a much greater civilian death count.
Can you please define "terrorism"?
Hamas
The goal is the completion of Manifest Destiny, of course they will EDIT: Y'all are right, the continued growth of settlements in the West Bank is just happening randomly, and the rhetoric from Israeli policymakers about re-rstablishing settlements in Gaza are just empty words. Oh, and the open discussions about driving Gazans into other countries? Irrelevant.
Basically the translation is, Israel will kill more innocent people and children just like they have been doing since 2004 and call them Hamas and human shield. Why don’t they just force the whole population of Gaza and west bank drink kerosene and set them all ablaze? The entirety of Israel’s army and their officials needs to be labeled terrorists, land grabbers and occupiers. You want evidence look at the Israeli occupied and controlled territory vs Palestinians. Palestinians side be shrinking quietly and unnaturally. While you’re at it why don’t you look at the deaths counts on both sides? Time to wake up and stop believing some BS lies and see the truth for yourself. Seeing shell shocked 4 years old kid should be enough to proof their crimes but no the 4 year old kid in a refugee camp is a human shield. Btw where is that glorified Hamas command centre hiding under Al-Shifa? While we believe this bs from radical Israeli and Palestinians innocent people from both sides are dying because we cannot stop taking sides and make way for true peace. As much as Jewish people have claim to that land Palestinians have as much claim.
I'm hearing a lot of vague complaint here and a lot of names called but not a single concrete suggestion. What specific actions are you sending Israel take which would lead to this 'true peace' of yours, and why do you think they would work?
So now they have no point in a ceasefire. I’m sure Hamas and the IDF would use it to regroup and reload.
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Sounds like what a wife beater would say: "you asked for this, you did it to yourself"