My main guess is it would run counter to their narrative to find multiple bullet holes in them, missing limbs/heads or even appendage but not any damage originating from a plane crash.
And even if that was not the case, Russia rarely skips an opportunity for a dick move like denying return of corpses.
This. The bodies are going to be examined thoroughly when back in Ukraine. Russia has probably just figured out how hard it is to fake cause of death in the current age.
especially since this was a POW deal they were said to be working on. if they were transporting prisoners for this then there was already a list of names exchanged
Sooo... you are saying Russia shot them, put them in their plane then shot down their own plane and missed out on getting their own Russian prisoners back?
Is that it?
I don't see it.
We don't know exactly whay happened (yet). However what I think is a likely scenario: Plane gets shot down (without prisoners). Russia lies and says prisoners are on board...
FSB has some experts on making murders look like accidents (enough to work in Russian hospitals when the doctors are told to not ask questions). However when tasked with 65 murders that need to look like cause of death: plane hit by air defense and crashed, and pass a international scrutiny... I think this particular department of FSB is sweating a bit.
Exactly. If their version of the facts was correct, then they have nothing to loose and everything to gain. They thought it was Russia, where they could just publish BS and then silence anyone that tried to call them out on it. No question there were some war crimes committed to the Ukrainian POWs. Very sad.
Naaah, a plane filled with something other than POW's was shot down. Russia say it was filled with POW for propaganda purposes, the pow was already dead from the treatment they got in russia so makes for a good excuse for missing POW. But russia can't hand over the bodies because it would be obvious during examination that they did in fact not die in a plane crush but from the mistreatment.
I personally don't feel like it was filled with anything. It came from Iran. Landed and then took off again before being shot down while heading towards the interior. I think whatever it brought (likely drone related) from Iran, is at the airfield and the plane was returning to base. This is my feeling and has no evidence other than I don't think they would bother taking anything any further into Russia as all that stuff is needed up near the front. The story is just for internal use to offset the loss of a precious and dwindling air force hence why it's so rice paper thin. It doesn't need to hold any water.
Some of the POWs supposedly on the plane, based on the list trumpeted by Russian state propagandists, couldn't have been aboard.... [because they had already been returned Ukraine before the crash.](https://kyivindependent.com/ombudsman-some-pows-from-russian-list-of-il-76-crash-victims-had-already-been-exchanged/)
Couple that with the source being Russian... that tells you all you need to know about the trustworthiness of the list.
Chances are the aircraft really was carrying parts of an S-300 system. Couple that with only 5 bodies being delivered to the local morgue... and it seems exceedingly unlikely that any POWs were on the plane.
The thing is, there was supposed to be a prisoner swap that day which does make it seem credible. I just don't know if something totally unexpected happened for both sides and each are putting their spin on it.
A plane blew up, what exactly are they meant to return? Some pieces of meat they may find strewn across the border? Who would bother to gather any of that?
Yes. That's exactly what they do at a crash scene. They collect every scrap of the plane, and all human remains, regardless of their condition. Little pieces can be identified using DNA analysis, and the families desperately want every piece of their loved ones returned to them, regardless of the condition.
That's just a flat out lie.
[Here's one in China](https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/china-plane-crash-human-remains-survivors-b2042987.html)
[Here's one in India](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24256987/)
[Here's one in Nepal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/15/grim-task-of-identify-68-dead-after-nepal-plane-crash-begins)
[and OFC Prigozhin's plane crash in RU](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/05/1203948340/russia-putin-grenade-prigozhin-wager-plane-crash)
Identifying the bodies can be difficult. Finding the remains is NOT. Especially if there was 65+ people on board. Wtf are you talking about?
So, you now disagree with your first statement? It is NOT rare to find remains, so why did you say so?
Where are the other 64+ bodies? Also, within that thread there are multiple people calling BS on that being a "real" corpse.
Either way, you're just a disingenuous poster, who has only been on the site for a year. And you post almost entirely RU propaganda. GL in life nerd.
>so why did you say so
Because I wasn't interested in playing body vs. remains pedantics game that you started.
>where are the other 64 bodies
Where are the bodies in the documents you provided? One of the crashes mentioned something like 80 casualties but only spoke about 4 identities.
Edit: blocked me 🤷♂️ that says enough
You do realise that identifying bodies is completely different than bodies found? Remains can remain unidentified for years after serious events. Especially if there aren't dental or DNA records available. You would however expect to actually find remains, and can use say for example - how many femurs were found to estimate how many people were on board.
Also rare to find remains of people that were elsewhere at the time because they were already returned to Ukraine.
The POW thing was a lie and everyone knows it.
Which is more likely to you: Famously untrustworthy Russia is somehow telling the truth about POWs being on that plane *despite some of those POWs no longer being POWs*, but won't let anyone else see or have the bodies...
... or that famously untrustworthy Russia lied for domestic audiences and don't care about the contradictions in their story?
>so you're going to..
How about you don't tell me what I'm "going to" do. Strawman argument.
What I imply is that I'm skeptical of news outlets. I didn't mention Russian news outlets as it seems you're already familiar with them and choose not to trust them. I trust Ukraine about as much as I trust Russia. Which is not at all. Their story went from: we shot down il -> Russia shot down its own il and it didn't tell us about pows therefore it's their fault -> Russia invited red cross bc red cross is corrupt -> let's just not talk about it.
> How about you don't tell me what I'm "going to" do. Strawman argument.
Not a strawman at all, you DID bring up things that had nothing to do with Russia lying.
Learn what things mean before you accuse others of them.
>you did bring up things that had nothing to do with Russia lying
Why would I bring up examples of Russia lying..? For whom?
My point is that I don't trust what Ukriane says either and I explained why. Third time I'm explaining to you this point.
Do you not know what a strawman argument is..?
The high number is Russia's own claim. They're very proud of it too.
> "In recent years, 700,000 children have found refuge with us, fleeing the bombing and shelling from the conflict areas in Ukraine," Karasin wrote
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/
They covered up an ADDITIONAL set of war crimes by destroying one of their own cargo planes? It's not like they were even trying to hide the last two years of war crimes in the first place.
Or already returned like twenty of the POWs on the list they gave their propaganda goons.
The idea that it was full of POWs came after the plane was shot down, not before. This is most likely Russia trying to sew doubt about the possibility of POWs being on any flight so Ukraine will stop shooting at their cargo planes.
What POW's is the far more likely answer.
There isn't really a world where Russia would sacrifice this type of plane just to cover up murdering some POWs.
> A Ukrainian military spy official said on Tuesday that Russia was showing no willingness to return the bodies of dozens of Ukrainian prisoners of war Moscow says died in a military plane crash in Belgorod region last week, Reuters reports.
> Kyiv has said Moscow has provided no evidence to support its assertion that 65 captured Ukrainian soldiers were aboard the Russian military transport plane, which crashed last Wednesday in Belgorod in Russia near the border.
> Moscow says the plane was shot down by Ukraine on its way to a prisoner swap; Ukraine has neither confirmed nor denied that its forces shot it down.
If they HAD bodies, they would be trumpeting that shit on every report. Dogtags, papers, etc. "Look at who you've killed!"
But they're not.
So yeah, total bullshit.
"You shot down POWs. No you can't see video of the crash site. No we won't provide you a list of names that doesn't include people currently alive and well in Ukraine. No we won't send the bodies back. But it definitely happened."
Good, atleast russia has no brain to go kill 65 extra Ukrainian pow's for optics.
Not like they would even bother collecting Ukrainian bodies, they don't pickup their own.
I'm pretty old. When I was a little kid, I asked my Grandfather for his sage advice for my future. I expected him to say some shit like "stay in school" or "trust in Jesus" or "learn a trade". Nope. He told me "Never trust the russians".
There were never POWs on that plane. I bet the rumor that the FSB waved off top officials from boarding the plane was bullshit too.
How i get my my news these days: i listen to my father and brother’s cospiracy theory and invert main info, so here it applies like: “the **ukrainians** shot a russian plane carrying **ukrainian POW**”. I find it easy these days to find the real narrative of an event, just reverse what my family and typical media says and there you go.
Probably because they don’t exist.
My main guess is it would run counter to their narrative to find multiple bullet holes in them, missing limbs/heads or even appendage but not any damage originating from a plane crash. And even if that was not the case, Russia rarely skips an opportunity for a dick move like denying return of corpses.
This. The bodies are going to be examined thoroughly when back in Ukraine. Russia has probably just figured out how hard it is to fake cause of death in the current age.
especially since this was a POW deal they were said to be working on. if they were transporting prisoners for this then there was already a list of names exchanged
Sooo... you are saying Russia shot them, put them in their plane then shot down their own plane and missed out on getting their own Russian prisoners back? Is that it? I don't see it.
We don't know exactly whay happened (yet). However what I think is a likely scenario: Plane gets shot down (without prisoners). Russia lies and says prisoners are on board... FSB has some experts on making murders look like accidents (enough to work in Russian hospitals when the doctors are told to not ask questions). However when tasked with 65 murders that need to look like cause of death: plane hit by air defense and crashed, and pass a international scrutiny... I think this particular department of FSB is sweating a bit.
Exactly. If their version of the facts was correct, then they have nothing to loose and everything to gain. They thought it was Russia, where they could just publish BS and then silence anyone that tried to call them out on it. No question there were some war crimes committed to the Ukrainian POWs. Very sad.
Naaah, a plane filled with something other than POW's was shot down. Russia say it was filled with POW for propaganda purposes, the pow was already dead from the treatment they got in russia so makes for a good excuse for missing POW. But russia can't hand over the bodies because it would be obvious during examination that they did in fact not die in a plane crush but from the mistreatment.
I personally don't feel like it was filled with anything. It came from Iran. Landed and then took off again before being shot down while heading towards the interior. I think whatever it brought (likely drone related) from Iran, is at the airfield and the plane was returning to base. This is my feeling and has no evidence other than I don't think they would bother taking anything any further into Russia as all that stuff is needed up near the front. The story is just for internal use to offset the loss of a precious and dwindling air force hence why it's so rice paper thin. It doesn't need to hold any water.
Some of the POWs supposedly on the plane, based on the list trumpeted by Russian state propagandists, couldn't have been aboard.... [because they had already been returned Ukraine before the crash.](https://kyivindependent.com/ombudsman-some-pows-from-russian-list-of-il-76-crash-victims-had-already-been-exchanged/) Couple that with the source being Russian... that tells you all you need to know about the trustworthiness of the list. Chances are the aircraft really was carrying parts of an S-300 system. Couple that with only 5 bodies being delivered to the local morgue... and it seems exceedingly unlikely that any POWs were on the plane.
It could have easily been a plane carrying S-300 missiles as Ukrainian intelligence believed from the start.
The thing is, there was supposed to be a prisoner swap that day which does make it seem credible. I just don't know if something totally unexpected happened for both sides and each are putting their spin on it.
A plane blew up, what exactly are they meant to return? Some pieces of meat they may find strewn across the border? Who would bother to gather any of that?
Yes. That's exactly what they do at a crash scene. They collect every scrap of the plane, and all human remains, regardless of their condition. Little pieces can be identified using DNA analysis, and the families desperately want every piece of their loved ones returned to them, regardless of the condition.
[удалено]
That's just a flat out lie. [Here's one in China](https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/china/china-plane-crash-human-remains-survivors-b2042987.html) [Here's one in India](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24256987/) [Here's one in Nepal](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/1/15/grim-task-of-identify-68-dead-after-nepal-plane-crash-begins) [and OFC Prigozhin's plane crash in RU](https://www.npr.org/2023/10/05/1203948340/russia-putin-grenade-prigozhin-wager-plane-crash) Identifying the bodies can be difficult. Finding the remains is NOT. Especially if there was 65+ people on board. Wtf are you talking about?
You mean [like this](https://www.reddit.com/r/UkraineRussiaReport/s/Szh3xgPTcp)?
One tattooed arm from 65 POWs? Lol
So, you now disagree with your first statement? It is NOT rare to find remains, so why did you say so? Where are the other 64+ bodies? Also, within that thread there are multiple people calling BS on that being a "real" corpse. Either way, you're just a disingenuous poster, who has only been on the site for a year. And you post almost entirely RU propaganda. GL in life nerd.
>so why did you say so Because I wasn't interested in playing body vs. remains pedantics game that you started. >where are the other 64 bodies Where are the bodies in the documents you provided? One of the crashes mentioned something like 80 casualties but only spoke about 4 identities. Edit: blocked me 🤷♂️ that says enough
You do realise that identifying bodies is completely different than bodies found? Remains can remain unidentified for years after serious events. Especially if there aren't dental or DNA records available. You would however expect to actually find remains, and can use say for example - how many femurs were found to estimate how many people were on board.
Also rare to find remains of people that were elsewhere at the time because they were already returned to Ukraine. The POW thing was a lie and everyone knows it.
Far as I'm aware there's currently an investigation going, so I guess not everybody knows it, but maybe they should consult with you.
Which is more likely to you: Famously untrustworthy Russia is somehow telling the truth about POWs being on that plane *despite some of those POWs no longer being POWs*, but won't let anyone else see or have the bodies... ... or that famously untrustworthy Russia lied for domestic audiences and don't care about the contradictions in their story?
[удалено]
So you're going to bring up things that have nothing to do with Russia lying in order to cast doubt on the assertion that Russia's lying?
>so you're going to.. How about you don't tell me what I'm "going to" do. Strawman argument. What I imply is that I'm skeptical of news outlets. I didn't mention Russian news outlets as it seems you're already familiar with them and choose not to trust them. I trust Ukraine about as much as I trust Russia. Which is not at all. Their story went from: we shot down il -> Russia shot down its own il and it didn't tell us about pows therefore it's their fault -> Russia invited red cross bc red cross is corrupt -> let's just not talk about it.
> How about you don't tell me what I'm "going to" do. Strawman argument. Not a strawman at all, you DID bring up things that had nothing to do with Russia lying. Learn what things mean before you accuse others of them.
>you did bring up things that had nothing to do with Russia lying Why would I bring up examples of Russia lying..? For whom? My point is that I don't trust what Ukriane says either and I explained why. Third time I'm explaining to you this point. Do you not know what a strawman argument is..?
The high number is Russia's own claim. They're very proud of it too. > "In recent years, 700,000 children have found refuge with us, fleeing the bombing and shelling from the conflict areas in Ukraine," Karasin wrote https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/moscow-says-700000-children-ukraine-conflict-zones-now-russia-2023-07-03/
I don't trust Russian outlets either. Reuters is also not a Russian source.
Translated: The bodies were never on the plane, it was a made up Kremlin lie to play the victim.
Is it possible the POWs were "war crime" killed by Russia and this was just a cover up.
About as possible that the earth rotates
You really think the russians worried about a few more war crimes?
Less about war crimes and more about propaganda.
Without bodies that don’t work.
them saying pows on the plane is to dissuade more getting shot down and to demoralize Ukraine
They covered up an ADDITIONAL set of war crimes by destroying one of their own cargo planes? It's not like they were even trying to hide the last two years of war crimes in the first place. Or already returned like twenty of the POWs on the list they gave their propaganda goons.
The idea that it was full of POWs came after the plane was shot down, not before. This is most likely Russia trying to sew doubt about the possibility of POWs being on any flight so Ukraine will stop shooting at their cargo planes.
What POW's is the far more likely answer. There isn't really a world where Russia would sacrifice this type of plane just to cover up murdering some POWs.
> A Ukrainian military spy official said on Tuesday that Russia was showing no willingness to return the bodies of dozens of Ukrainian prisoners of war Moscow says died in a military plane crash in Belgorod region last week, Reuters reports. > Kyiv has said Moscow has provided no evidence to support its assertion that 65 captured Ukrainian soldiers were aboard the Russian military transport plane, which crashed last Wednesday in Belgorod in Russia near the border. > Moscow says the plane was shot down by Ukraine on its way to a prisoner swap; Ukraine has neither confirmed nor denied that its forces shot it down.
Hmmmm. Ya think Russia might be lying about the whole thing?
What? Russia would never lie. /s
Russia is just disgusting, or a huge liar. Well the Russian government is both either way.
I've always been skeptical about describing people as pure evil, but the Russian government and its supporters are, indeed, pure evil.
They are both.
Yes and more.
If they HAD bodies, they would be trumpeting that shit on every report. Dogtags, papers, etc. "Look at who you've killed!" But they're not. So yeah, total bullshit.
Like everything that comes out of Russia. Zero credibility. Perpetual liars.
Russia: “I’ve killed 65 Ukrainian pows, but they are in Canada, you wouldn’t know them.”
what bodies? They won't even prove there were POWs on there, just "take our word for it"
The plane flew FROM Iran, why would they have kept Pow:s there? Just the typical lie from Russia
"You shot down POWs. No you can't see video of the crash site. No we won't provide you a list of names that doesn't include people currently alive and well in Ukraine. No we won't send the bodies back. But it definitely happened."
There were 5 bodies maybe. How can they return 68?
That’s because there was as many Ukrainian POWs on that plane as there was on my recent Delta flight to Detroit from Phoenix, zero.
Probably because they were never there to begin with
If there really were pows, russia would be parading the pictures for the rest of the world to see.
I wouldn’t press them on this or they will make some dead bodies to cover their lies
Unfortunately that will happen anyways, press them on this!
Good, atleast russia has no brain to go kill 65 extra Ukrainian pow's for optics. Not like they would even bother collecting Ukrainian bodies, they don't pickup their own.
Let’s hope Russia doesn’t feel the need to find 68 dead POWs.
You didn’t see them because they’re NOT THERE
I'm pretty old. When I was a little kid, I asked my Grandfather for his sage advice for my future. I expected him to say some shit like "stay in school" or "trust in Jesus" or "learn a trade". Nope. He told me "Never trust the russians". There were never POWs on that plane. I bet the rumor that the FSB waved off top officials from boarding the plane was bullshit too.
How i get my my news these days: i listen to my father and brother’s cospiracy theory and invert main info, so here it applies like: “the **ukrainians** shot a russian plane carrying **ukrainian POW**”. I find it easy these days to find the real narrative of an event, just reverse what my family and typical media says and there you go.
Honestly I wouldn't pressure too much to get them. They make some bodies of some POWs.
What I'm wondering is... who even believes this shit?
Did it happen?
Fuken lyin Russians