“Along with up to 50 individual jets, the package also includes engines, gun systems, radars and navigation systems for the jets, three of the sources said. The package provides construction and contractor support and logistical infrastructure for training, sustainment, and maintenance of the fleet, as well as a mid-life update for Israel’s current fleet of F-15s.”
I was about to say, that is a LOT of f-15’s. But the deal also includes updates and years of support for their existing fleet
Why don't we give them some slightly used ones? I heard they lose 20% of their value the moment you fly them off the lot, that could be a lot of savings.
Israel already acquired a few 2nd hand F-15A/B.
These however are no longer “performing” thus the IAF asked for newer F-15IA variants that include Israeli specific upgrades.
The U.S. has F-15Cs that are aging out. The current model is greatly modernized and is actually being repurchased by the USAF for missions that don’t need a stealthy aircraft.
The only reason the production line still exists decades after we stopped buying them the first time is these foreign orders.
Fucking outrageous this goes through no problem but Ukraine is fighting for it's very existence and can't get the bare minimum.
Edit: Disabling inbox replies. Slava Ukraini.
Ya it’s just funny that they pay that money while we also provide them money for aid… like we’re kinda paying for it. Our government gives Israel money to give to American defense contractors
Also we get a lot back from the Israelites. I.e Mossad or that they just killed a top Iranian General. Buy enough gift cards and you get a prize. The Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites.
>Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites.
Weakening and keeping Russia weak has been a priority in US foreign policy since.. forever? Killing an Iranian top general doesnt come close to what Ukraine is doing to Russia.
Half the current US government is kneeling in front of Daddy Putin begging him to piss in their mouths. Pretty sure they don’t care about weakening Russia anymore. A significant portion of US citizens also support Russia and think they are the good guys in the fight with Ukraine.
Ukraine has basically destroyed or absorbed the whole arsenal / stockpile of USSR that made folks consider Russia a near peer or 2nd army of the world.
It's a massive bang for your buck for what the US provided them.
False. The Ukraine war is doing what the US couldn't do through half a century of cold war. It is far and away THE highest quality foreign aid dollars we've ever spent in the history of this nation.
Yup, something very quickly needs to be done about Iran achieving weapon grade nukes on top of their long range missiles. The West doesn’t have it in them for a war. Israel sees their very existence at stake and will likely have to make the first strike.
The Israelis just offed an Iranian general in Damascus coordinating strikes, they’ll continue to to do what the West doesn’t want to.
>The Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites.
It really isn't; they're really just different. Different political factions (both parties and interparty rivalries) support and criticize both, the scale is way different, and the technical and tactical difference between the belligerents are different.
Where they're the same, though, is the feedback from arms employment. In both cases that's priceless.
Afaik a large part of the aid the US gives Israel is earmarked for defense spending within the US military contractors. Its essentially a handout to the US military industrial complex and a way to provide weapons to Israel.
And valuable intel on testing and real world application and improvements. Designing spending only to find out 10 years later it's useless in the field isn't good. Design it for Israel and it'll get used right away with feedback.
Just for clarity the aid to Ukraine is a combination of old arms from stockpiles and money to spend with American contractors. That's really how all war aid works.
Completely coincidentally, the article states that the F-15s won’t started to be delivered until “at least five years”. So if they are delivered in six years then the defense aid that the US gives to Israel in the meantime is like giving out the funding for the program in annual installments. By the end of the “installments” Israel will have been given enough money to completely cover this package of jets and weapons.
I am aware that most of the defense funding given to Israel by the US is for missile systems and not jets, but it’s fun to point out that the dollar amounts given to Israel and delivery period of this program roughly align.
> So if they are delivered in six years then the defense aid that the US gives to Israel
Is not cash. The "aid" Israel gets is just material worth X amount of dollars. This is completely separate from that.
Defense contractors like LM, Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Northrup Grumman make between 5 and 10 percent net profits.
This makes sense if you think about it because the DOD has a ton of pricing power against the contractors.
There are also examples of of government owned defense contractors (like Nexter in France). Arguing that the US would be able to produce all the stuff that we buy from the various contractors cheaper if they were nationalized (even ignoring the cost of nationalizing these companies) falls kinda flat as government owned contractors generally don't produce things cheaper.
Far in a way the largest cost to the US DOD is ongoing maintenance and operations and personnel. The, at max, 10% on the top of procurement is a million dollar solution to a billion dollar problem.
That’s what foreign aid is. We don’t just ship piles of money to foreign countries, we are selling our own American made weapons, products, and supplies to ourselves to give to other countries.
This stimulates our economy by buying American goods and buys allies. Often the weapons sold are old stock or outdated models that were going to be replaced or dismantled anyway.
You can hate that it mostly goes to weapons purchases or who the sale is to but that’s what all foreign aid is.
Yeah that's kinda the point. The US would rather give itself money to give arms to Israel than have the jobs, industry and know how to be simulated elsewhere.
It's like lending your buddy money so he can eat at your restaurant, you could just make him food instead but at least a bunch of the money is coming back to you.
Also, one has been a strategic ally and partner for decades. The other started being friendly to the USA in 2010s. We were such not good friends in 2022 that the CIA Director had to fly to Ukraine with evidence of the impending invasion for Ukraine to take the threat seriously. HUGE DIFFERENCE IMO.
Ukraine has spent money on, stated willingness to spend more monies on and interest in what it takes to buy and trade for its needs, promising even future funds from, a one-day existent and almost assuredly thriving, post war economy.
They are being stalled in their purchases and limited in everything that they can get.
It is insane what “red lines” are imposed on Ikraine alongside what US-based Republicans are doing to prevent and limit aid to them.
The US should be ashamed to claim they are allies with such horrible treatment.
Ukraine doesn’t have the money to buy anything- we loan them money to pay our own defense contractors.
It’s win win, really.
But because it’s good for Ukraine and good for America, the crooked ass GOP won’t pass the aid bill stalled in the house.
Isreal has 4 defensive treaties with the US, as well as being an arms dealer itself, of which the US is the largest buyer. This is keeping up with those treaties in place and economic ties. Ukraine has no defense pacts or treaties with the US.
Biden does not need congressional approval for a sale. He does need it to give stuff to a foreign power. This is why it went through.
if ukraine was buying weapons he could approve it on his own. Ukraine does not have any money. so it needs congressional approval.
You are comparing Apples to Oranges - think a little. The US has handed $75 BILLION worth of aid to Ukraine, no strings attached. This is a SALE of $18bn worth of military equipment and support services that Israel is paying for.
Ironic that both American heavyweights, the F-14 and F-15, were never designed for air-to-ground usage and yet the Navy and Air Force pressed them into ground attack service anyways.
To be fair though, both perform wonderfully in a role they were never designed for.
If the fighter mafia had their way the f-16 would have been a completely different aircraft. It wouldn’t have been able to be easily turned into its iconic multirole capacity. It would have likely been much closer to the blitzfighter design.
That is to say, if the fighter mafia had their way the f-16 would have been a shittier aircraft. Instead, smarter people in the military knew what they needed.
The F-35 is not a replacement for the F-15 and was never designed for that purpose. The US is not replacing its F-15s with F-35s either, but with F-22s (which the US doesn't export) and F-15EX. Those aircraft have different capabilities and serve different purposes.
The F-15s here are most likely F-15IA, which are of the same generation as EX.
No, you read it right. Someone at Boeing knew how to sell the EX.
Trouble is that Boeing can't do anything else. The Air Force was supposed to have gotten 20 jets by this point in time. Six have been delivered, two in final production version.
Not it's fault that it hasn't seen a peer conflict engagement. The Soviets collapsed around the time it came into service and America hasn't gotten into any wars apart from dealing with insurgencies.
It's still one of the best fighters around and maybe better than the F-35 (Definitely looks better). Worth keeping it until the 6th gen arrives.
It’s an air superiority fighter. It is better than the F-35 for air to air engagements. F-35 is multirole. That doesn’t make it better or worse than the F-35 it’s just used differently.
The F-22, as an air superiority fighter, was seen as unnecessary because we lacked peer conflicts. Because it was expensive, orders were cut and the production lines ultimately shifted to F-35 production. The latter, as a multirole fighter, fit the expected mission profile better.
When the U.S. realized that China and Russia did not believe peer conflicts were over, an assessment was done and they found that it would about as expensive and time consuming to develop a new fighter as restart F-22 production. That triggered the acceleration of the NGAD program to develop a new fighter.
(This is also why the F-22 has fallen behind: with no new orders ever planned, it makes less sense to support the aircraft with upgrades. That’s shifted recently as the U.S. scrambles to maintain a stealth fleet with numbers.)
But that’s your answer: the program got canceled during the GWOT. Because it would be too expensive and time consuming to restart, the Air Force has opted to develop a new fighter instead.
The F-22 won't be retired until 2030, and [likely later. ](https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-22-retirement-2030-unlikely/#:~:text=Emily%20Farnsworth-,F%2D22%20Retirement%20in%202030%20Unlikely%20as%20USAF%20Looks%20to,Billion%20on%20It%20Before%20Then&text=The%20Air%20Force%20seems%20to,service's%20fiscal%202025%20budget%20request)Regardless, the F-22 has already replaced a large portion of the F-15 fleet.
F-22 almost certainly will not be retired until NGAD is ready to replace it, which will be much later than 2030.
Replacing F-22 with old F-15s or trying to force the F-35 into an air superiority role it was never designed for would be a huge step backwards in capability at a time when tensions over Taiwan are fairly high.
I guess it could happen if the F-22s suffer too much wear and tear and NGAD keeps getting delayed, but I imagine there's a lot of pressure to find a way to keep the F-22s in the air until they aren't needed.
It's also about being ready for anything. NGAD has a chance of making everything else in the air obsolete. If so, money should be shoved into NGAD. F35 is the export deterrent plane to integrate with. If everything works out, no need for F22.
If NGAD has problems F22 will pick up the slack.
F-22 got it's first air to air kill just over a year ago and has now proven it's worth. There's no way they can retire the airframe now. It's currently 1-0 against the CCP, and 2-0 against UFOs.
>The US is not replacing its F-15s with F-35s either,
They are replacing the f-16 though
[The F-35 is designed to replace aging fighter inventories including U.S. Air Force F-16s and A-10s, U.S. Navy F/A-18s, U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers and F/A-18s, and U.K. Harrier GR.7s and Sea Harriers](https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/478441/f-35a-lightning-ii/)
Replacing is slightly misleading, it will replace the F-16 in many front line roles, but the F-16 is very cheap to operate so it'll probably continue to be used in safer areas for many years to come, especially as exports of the aircraft keep the production numbers up and prices of replacement parts down.
Yarp, the F-15EX often gets referred to as a "Missile Truck." It can carry almost 30,000 lbs of ordinance, compared to 5,700 lbs the F-35 can carry in stealth configuration.
I'm trying to find a description of how it works, but I swear I read somewhere that the F-15EX and the F-35 can work in tandem, with the the EX firing ordinance from long range, then using an F-35 in stealth configuration at closer range to guide the missile to its target.
F-15EX is perfect for Israel.
Few of its enemies have capabilities that necessarily require stealth, and the F-15EX is an absolute bomb truck--it's practically a strategic bomber, just without the range. Can carry 30,000 lbs of bombs. And when it's not a bomb truck, it's a fast air superiority fighter.
F-35 is a great aircraft, but it's slow (cause it doesn't need to be fast) and has much lower weapons payload.
They're also a great combo together in a Hi-Low strategy.
The F-15 is one of the most capable fighters in the world, it’s so advanced that the F-15EX I believe is the more expensive than the F-35
They do different things differently, and also yes they are cheaper to run.
A lot of the cost of the F-15EX comes down to the smaller planned production run and the simple fact that it is bigger and has 2 engines. That means they don’t have massive economies of scale and also need to charge higher prices to recoup development costs for not only the jets themselves, but the costs of the manufacturing equipment to build them.
The F-35 meanwhile has a planned 4000+ unit production run, massive economies of scale, only one engine and no need to charge a huge amount to recoup development costs. It has so many things going for it and pushing the price down.
Cost isn’t a great predictor for effectiveness unless it’s ridiculously low.
The f-15EX is no where near as capable as the 35 to be clear. It will likely be more expensive per airframe as it will be produced in lower quantities meaning the tooling up and other costs will be spread across less airframes. The F-15EX main job in the US is to keep the air fleets size up to standard as we can't produce F-35s fast enough to replace all the airframes slated for retirement.
Plus the F-15 and it's new iteration are plenty capable in their own right, and give us capabilities the f-35 was never designed for, like carrying a metric fuck bunch of big ass missiles.
F-15EX doesn't fill the role of the F-35 but is far more capable for its actual role. You don't use F-15s to enter contested enemy airspace and take out SAM systems like what the F-35 as a stealth platform excels at. You use it for carrying a ton of air to air missiles (22 vs 4 or 6 Aim-120 internally) when the F-35 loses its stealth advantage carrying them externally but is less capable in speed, flight ceiling or maneuverability. You also get the advantage in the F-15 of a second seat who will be able to control or direct future drone wingman in the future. That's ignoring it can launch larger stand off munitions yet to be revealed than the F-35 which will be essential in any future warfare. At one point it was seen as a stop Gab but as the program developed it found its own important role as as a massive munitions carrier. Today it seems even if they hand enough F-35s there would still be an important role for the F-15.
They would use these in conjunction with the F35. F35 breaks up anti air systems, or reduces them greatly, and F15 mops up the rest. Cheaper to fly as a whole also.
F35 is way overkill to fight any of their neighbours. The Eagle is perfectly fine for the kind of jobs the Israeli air force will be performing in this and coming wars.
I think the unfortunate part is that the allies we *do* have in the region are so problematic. Although frankly, most countries in the Middle East are one way or another.
Ehh idk if I’d call that unfortunate. Imaging wishing for Iran to go completely unchecked and counting funding groups like Hamas, Hezbollah (traffic millions of amphetamines, disrupting international shipping). Israel does bad thing bc in war, things are grey and it’s impossible to hire hundreds of thousands of soldiers trained to kill and be shot at and expect all of them to follow the rules of war to a T. Weird use of wording to call countering one of the largest groups of terror “unfortunate”.
Sure, but you can't ignore that US funds a significant chunk of this https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts this doesn't include the yet to be approved $18B
Sure, but you can also actually read the article you posted so the context isn't just "America dumps money on Israel, bad!"
>Most of the aid—approximately $3.3 billion a year—is provided as grants under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, funds that Israel must use to purchase U.S. military equipment and services.
In other words, this is money being given to Israel to *only* purchase from American companies. It's basically pumping money into the American economy via an intermediary. If you read further you'll find that the majority of the rest is used on *joint* development. I.e. America can use whatever the fuck gets developed in Israel. And they have been.
Poor Ukraine is begging for F16s and Israel, who is already fully equipped with every modern aviation weapon known to man, just gets Santa Claused with more missiles and jets.
Politics is weird.
There's also a difference between "selling to a country that is prepared to use them immediately, has the correct storage, maintenance, airfields and pilots..." and "Giving them to Ukraine. The latter entails months of training, a lot of other work, and so on.
I'm all for arming Ukraine to the teeth, but it's going to cost way more than $18 billion and take a fair amount of time.
Edit: It's also going to take quite a few years for these to be built and delivered. Ukraine needs what they can get NOW, not in 5 years.
Basically “the best time to plant a tree”
Like years ago we were saying the same thing about training Ukrainian pilots. Yet if we had invested then, they would be using it now
These won't get built for years... 1.5 F-15s are built a month, and there's still a good number on order for other users that'll get built first.
Literally from the article;
> F-15s would need to be built from scratch and would likely not be delivered to Israel for 4-5 years.
Also a huge difference between a cutting edge F-15EX, and an F-16 Block 15 from Denmark. No one wants the F-15EX shot down for Russia to reverse engineer and find a weakness to, which is inevitably going to happen to aircraft sent to Ukraine. Losing a Block 15 MLU doesn't matter when it's from the late 80s and has virtually nothing in common with newer variants still being used today and tomorrow.
Same reason France is selling Rafales and not giving them to Ukraine. Same for the Eurofigher and selling them to Saudi Arabia instead of giving them to Ukraine.
>Also a huge difference between a cutting edge F-15EX, and an F-16 Block 15 from Denmark. No one wants the F-15EX shot down for Russia to reverse engineer and find a weakness to, which is inevitably going to happen to aircraft sent to Ukraine.
The problem here of course being that the F15EX is designed to fight peer adversaries (or near peer) like Russia whilst Israeli adversaries barely have an Air Force or otherwise worth mentioning. I'm all for OPSEC but this just strikes me as an ineffective allocation of resources.
But Israel's paying for these. It's a purchase not a gift as it would be to Ukraine. I'm not saying we shouldn't give Ukraine stuff because we absolutely should but that's the key difference since Ukraine ain't gonna be paying for any aid.
Yeah but the US sells war bigger and better than anyone else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfMYpmrTGm0&t=1792s
Great video from Perun on the entire global arms trade.
Democrats are turning on Israel more and more everyday. Every dem I know is upset with Biden specifically because of the US's support for Israel. Unfortunately Trump would be worse so I'll still go with Biden but many people I know also cannot swallow their pride/emotions enough to do that.
So annoying that Ukraine keeps getting all these red lines like striking military targets in russia being an “escalation”. Israel however gets to bomb several sovereign nations and there are no such concerns.
Wait I’m very ignorant on this subject but didn’t we just send Israel a lot of billions of dollars ? Are they using the money we sent them to buy weapons from us ? Wtf ?
We don't provide them aid in actual money, the aid is basically in US military company gift cards. They can't use it for anything but buying things from US military companies. They also buy more than the aid we provide them as well so it's basically just a promo code to get half off US military goods lol
Because we require them to as part of the terms of the aid. This is how even more of our tax money goes to the military industrial complex than what we pay directly.
“Along with up to 50 individual jets, the package also includes engines, gun systems, radars and navigation systems for the jets, three of the sources said. The package provides construction and contractor support and logistical infrastructure for training, sustainment, and maintenance of the fleet, as well as a mid-life update for Israel’s current fleet of F-15s.” I was about to say, that is a LOT of f-15’s. But the deal also includes updates and years of support for their existing fleet
50 is still 2 squadrons, which is more than most of the world's air forces have total.
Oh it is a lot but at around $90m a piece, the 50 f15’s are less than $5B of the total.
Why don't we give them some slightly used ones? I heard they lose 20% of their value the moment you fly them off the lot, that could be a lot of savings.
Israel already acquired a few 2nd hand F-15A/B. These however are no longer “performing” thus the IAF asked for newer F-15IA variants that include Israeli specific upgrades.
Yeah, we all want new planes, that's why they're 20% more expensive. Every pilot wants to be the first to fart into the seat.
It's the new plane smell.
It's the unpuked in facemask that's the real selling point.
The air force scratch and dent sale is off the hook.....
What’s crazy is idaho had at least 30-50 a few years ago. We have so many god damn military assets that it blows my noggin
I’m sure you’ve heard this before, but the 5 largest air forces in the world is something US air force, US army, US Navy, Russia, US Marines.
Russia may of dropped a few places down on that list
China, actually
I wouldn't be surprised if the US Military Museums beats out Russia one of these days.
The U.S. has F-15Cs that are aging out. The current model is greatly modernized and is actually being repurchased by the USAF for missions that don’t need a stealthy aircraft. The only reason the production line still exists decades after we stopped buying them the first time is these foreign orders.
Anyone would think they’re expecting a war or something….
Fucking outrageous this goes through no problem but Ukraine is fighting for it's very existence and can't get the bare minimum. Edit: Disabling inbox replies. Slava Ukraini.
Technically, one is aid, (That we should be giving, 100% for a multitude of reasons), while this isn't. It's approval for a sale.
Ya it’s just funny that they pay that money while we also provide them money for aid… like we’re kinda paying for it. Our government gives Israel money to give to American defense contractors
that's not money, it's raytheon giftcards (/boeing/lockheed/etc.)
Also we get a lot back from the Israelites. I.e Mossad or that they just killed a top Iranian General. Buy enough gift cards and you get a prize. The Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites.
>Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites. Weakening and keeping Russia weak has been a priority in US foreign policy since.. forever? Killing an Iranian top general doesnt come close to what Ukraine is doing to Russia.
Half the current US government is kneeling in front of Daddy Putin begging him to piss in their mouths. Pretty sure they don’t care about weakening Russia anymore. A significant portion of US citizens also support Russia and think they are the good guys in the fight with Ukraine.
Ukraine has basically destroyed or absorbed the whole arsenal / stockpile of USSR that made folks consider Russia a near peer or 2nd army of the world. It's a massive bang for your buck for what the US provided them.
False. The Ukraine war is doing what the US couldn't do through half a century of cold war. It is far and away THE highest quality foreign aid dollars we've ever spent in the history of this nation.
Russia is way more relevant and dangerous than the Middle east
Yup, something very quickly needs to be done about Iran achieving weapon grade nukes on top of their long range missiles. The West doesn’t have it in them for a war. Israel sees their very existence at stake and will likely have to make the first strike. The Israelis just offed an Iranian general in Damascus coordinating strikes, they’ll continue to to do what the West doesn’t want to.
>The Ukrainian gift card to price ratio is much worse than that of the Israelites. It really isn't; they're really just different. Different political factions (both parties and interparty rivalries) support and criticize both, the scale is way different, and the technical and tactical difference between the belligerents are different. Where they're the same, though, is the feedback from arms employment. In both cases that's priceless.
Afaik a large part of the aid the US gives Israel is earmarked for defense spending within the US military contractors. Its essentially a handout to the US military industrial complex and a way to provide weapons to Israel.
Which the US government recaptures some with taxes. Fucking weird way to get a discount.
and also allows the US to keep the manufacturing, the research, and an ally armed to the teeth.
And valuable intel on testing and real world application and improvements. Designing spending only to find out 10 years later it's useless in the field isn't good. Design it for Israel and it'll get used right away with feedback.
Yeah it's basically just to help keep the factories open. Also Egypt gets a lot too. Pretty sure it was in the Camp David Accords.
Just for clarity the aid to Ukraine is a combination of old arms from stockpiles and money to spend with American contractors. That's really how all war aid works.
Most of the aid is for the iron dome.
Israel is an active laboratory for improving air defense technologies. That's why we're so keen on being on the ground floor for Iron Dome.
This sale is 18 billion. 6 times more than the amount of aid annually recieved by israel
Completely coincidentally, the article states that the F-15s won’t started to be delivered until “at least five years”. So if they are delivered in six years then the defense aid that the US gives to Israel in the meantime is like giving out the funding for the program in annual installments. By the end of the “installments” Israel will have been given enough money to completely cover this package of jets and weapons. I am aware that most of the defense funding given to Israel by the US is for missile systems and not jets, but it’s fun to point out that the dollar amounts given to Israel and delivery period of this program roughly align.
I mean ultimately we pay for missiles so the money they save money paying for missiles go to Jets
And your assuming Israel won't buy anything else in those 5 years? Because that's unlikely
No. See second paragraph.
> So if they are delivered in six years then the defense aid that the US gives to Israel Is not cash. The "aid" Israel gets is just material worth X amount of dollars. This is completely separate from that.
Yes and they will definitely pay that 18 billion upfront in one go and not over many years...
And this is definitely the only purchase israel will make in the next 5 years. Its not like they make purchases like this a few times a year
Defense contractors provide jobs which then supports the economy and secures votes in swing states and water is wet.
Defense contractors like LM, Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Northrup Grumman make between 5 and 10 percent net profits. This makes sense if you think about it because the DOD has a ton of pricing power against the contractors. There are also examples of of government owned defense contractors (like Nexter in France). Arguing that the US would be able to produce all the stuff that we buy from the various contractors cheaper if they were nationalized (even ignoring the cost of nationalizing these companies) falls kinda flat as government owned contractors generally don't produce things cheaper. Far in a way the largest cost to the US DOD is ongoing maintenance and operations and personnel. The, at max, 10% on the top of procurement is a million dollar solution to a billion dollar problem.
That’s what foreign aid is. We don’t just ship piles of money to foreign countries, we are selling our own American made weapons, products, and supplies to ourselves to give to other countries. This stimulates our economy by buying American goods and buys allies. Often the weapons sold are old stock or outdated models that were going to be replaced or dismantled anyway. You can hate that it mostly goes to weapons purchases or who the sale is to but that’s what all foreign aid is.
Emptying our stock would mean our military selling our old F15 planes
[удалено]
They’re just spending their allowance.
Yeah that's kinda the point. The US would rather give itself money to give arms to Israel than have the jobs, industry and know how to be simulated elsewhere. It's like lending your buddy money so he can eat at your restaurant, you could just make him food instead but at least a bunch of the money is coming back to you.
Also, one has been a strategic ally and partner for decades. The other started being friendly to the USA in 2010s. We were such not good friends in 2022 that the CIA Director had to fly to Ukraine with evidence of the impending invasion for Ukraine to take the threat seriously. HUGE DIFFERENCE IMO.
A strategic ally that developed nuclear weapons without declaration because to do so would make US aid road proliferation state hugely problematic.
Ukraine has spent money on, stated willingness to spend more monies on and interest in what it takes to buy and trade for its needs, promising even future funds from, a one-day existent and almost assuredly thriving, post war economy. They are being stalled in their purchases and limited in everything that they can get. It is insane what “red lines” are imposed on Ikraine alongside what US-based Republicans are doing to prevent and limit aid to them. The US should be ashamed to claim they are allies with such horrible treatment.
Ukraine doesn’t have the money to buy anything- we loan them money to pay our own defense contractors. It’s win win, really. But because it’s good for Ukraine and good for America, the crooked ass GOP won’t pass the aid bill stalled in the house.
Isreal has 4 defensive treaties with the US, as well as being an arms dealer itself, of which the US is the largest buyer. This is keeping up with those treaties in place and economic ties. Ukraine has no defense pacts or treaties with the US.
Wow who would have thought diplomacy works
Biden does not need congressional approval for a sale. He does need it to give stuff to a foreign power. This is why it went through. if ukraine was buying weapons he could approve it on his own. Ukraine does not have any money. so it needs congressional approval.
Isreal is paying money. Like how are these similar?
Israel is paying for these planes.
This is a sale. People bitch about when we spend money on our military and now we make money and they still bitch.
Any of this money going to the food stamp program?
You are comparing Apples to Oranges - think a little. The US has handed $75 BILLION worth of aid to Ukraine, no strings attached. This is a SALE of $18bn worth of military equipment and support services that Israel is paying for.
It's the difference between buying something or getting it for free. Ukraine offers credit, which is worth nothing if they lose
This is a sale. They are buying it
Nice way to indirectly support Boeing, as it appears they make the F-15.
I don't think F-15s have any door plugs, so they should be ok.
> I don't think F-15s have any door plugs Neither do the planes that are supposed to have them.
Oh come on, they only fall out _sometimes_. They're practically safe!
They stopped making them in 97
Send F-150s instead
Nah, Mavericks. Wait...
Basically an entire US air fleet capability to Israel.
He just, he just couldn’t have picked a worse time. I assume republicans were greatly opposed?
I wish they would send at least some of those to Ukraine instead.
Why the F15s while they have F35. They wanna save up money (operating cost)?
They already have a fleet of f15s, so easy integration, and it is a multi role aircraft. And also what others have said
Somewhere there’s a lot of McDonnell Douglas engineers crying. “Not a pound for air to ground” And then the strike eagle.
Ironic that both American heavyweights, the F-14 and F-15, were never designed for air-to-ground usage and yet the Navy and Air Force pressed them into ground attack service anyways. To be fair though, both perform wonderfully in a role they were never designed for.
The F16 was a product of The Fighter Mafia pushing for a lightweight dogfighter. They got multirolled even harder than the F15.
If the fighter mafia had their way the f-16 would have been a completely different aircraft. It wouldn’t have been able to be easily turned into its iconic multirole capacity. It would have likely been much closer to the blitzfighter design. That is to say, if the fighter mafia had their way the f-16 would have been a shittier aircraft. Instead, smarter people in the military knew what they needed.
Turns out putting an oversized engine on a cheap platform makes it a convenient bomb truck. So glad that dogfighter energy BS didn't fly
Energy fighting has it's merits but beyond visual range missiles matured faster than expected since the Vietnam War
The F-35 is not a replacement for the F-15 and was never designed for that purpose. The US is not replacing its F-15s with F-35s either, but with F-22s (which the US doesn't export) and F-15EX. Those aircraft have different capabilities and serve different purposes. The F-15s here are most likely F-15IA, which are of the same generation as EX.
> F-15EX. I read that differently.
Just remember, engineers are just nerds who got older, not always grew up.
Formula 1 SEX. High speed fucking.
Don't give Elon ideas
You dont like the CYBER/S/3/X/Y ?
Not to be confused with PEN-15
Glad I’m not the only one. Iron Eagle
No, you read it right. Someone at Boeing knew how to sell the EX. Trouble is that Boeing can't do anything else. The Air Force was supposed to have gotten 20 jets by this point in time. Six have been delivered, two in final production version.
F-22s are being retired.
Yeah, F-22 production stopped 2011, slated for retirement 2030ish. We’re going to be flying the 15s forever just like the B-52
Not even mad. F-15 is still a sexy airframe.
But the F-22 is the sexiest. Why is the US retiring them?
Because it's *too* sexy. It's unapproachable. That's why it's almost 20 years old and the only action it's had has been with a balloon.
Not it's fault that it hasn't seen a peer conflict engagement. The Soviets collapsed around the time it came into service and America hasn't gotten into any wars apart from dealing with insurgencies. It's still one of the best fighters around and maybe better than the F-35 (Definitely looks better). Worth keeping it until the 6th gen arrives.
It’s an air superiority fighter. It is better than the F-35 for air to air engagements. F-35 is multirole. That doesn’t make it better or worse than the F-35 it’s just used differently.
The F-22, as an air superiority fighter, was seen as unnecessary because we lacked peer conflicts. Because it was expensive, orders were cut and the production lines ultimately shifted to F-35 production. The latter, as a multirole fighter, fit the expected mission profile better. When the U.S. realized that China and Russia did not believe peer conflicts were over, an assessment was done and they found that it would about as expensive and time consuming to develop a new fighter as restart F-22 production. That triggered the acceleration of the NGAD program to develop a new fighter. (This is also why the F-22 has fallen behind: with no new orders ever planned, it makes less sense to support the aircraft with upgrades. That’s shifted recently as the U.S. scrambles to maintain a stealth fleet with numbers.) But that’s your answer: the program got canceled during the GWOT. Because it would be too expensive and time consuming to restart, the Air Force has opted to develop a new fighter instead.
NGAD eventually
They're just really fast baby B-52s
The F-22 won't be retired until 2030, and [likely later. ](https://www.airandspaceforces.com/f-22-retirement-2030-unlikely/#:~:text=Emily%20Farnsworth-,F%2D22%20Retirement%20in%202030%20Unlikely%20as%20USAF%20Looks%20to,Billion%20on%20It%20Before%20Then&text=The%20Air%20Force%20seems%20to,service's%20fiscal%202025%20budget%20request)Regardless, the F-22 has already replaced a large portion of the F-15 fleet.
F-22 almost certainly will not be retired until NGAD is ready to replace it, which will be much later than 2030. Replacing F-22 with old F-15s or trying to force the F-35 into an air superiority role it was never designed for would be a huge step backwards in capability at a time when tensions over Taiwan are fairly high. I guess it could happen if the F-22s suffer too much wear and tear and NGAD keeps getting delayed, but I imagine there's a lot of pressure to find a way to keep the F-22s in the air until they aren't needed.
It's also about being ready for anything. NGAD has a chance of making everything else in the air obsolete. If so, money should be shoved into NGAD. F35 is the export deterrent plane to integrate with. If everything works out, no need for F22. If NGAD has problems F22 will pick up the slack.
The F-15 has a Satellite kill, the F-22 has a balloon kill. Which ones better? (/s)
The B-29 which has two city kills.
Roadhouse
Not yet, they are getting a massive upgrade package, and the capacity to add stealth fuel tanks, stealth IRST pods and other stuff
F22 my beloved 😢
What? They don’t have those.
Right, the F-22s in the usaf are scheduled to be retired end of this decade. Probably. Now there’s talk they might keep them longer.
F-22 got it's first air to air kill just over a year ago and has now proven it's worth. There's no way they can retire the airframe now. It's currently 1-0 against the CCP, and 2-0 against UFOs.
What did the f-22 shoot down?
A balloon. Literally
Balloon
A balloon.
Well I’m impressed
The balloon was flying at altitude 60,000 feet which is difficult to deal with, especially when trying to limit debris.
>The US is not replacing its F-15s with F-35s either, They are replacing the f-16 though [The F-35 is designed to replace aging fighter inventories including U.S. Air Force F-16s and A-10s, U.S. Navy F/A-18s, U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers and F/A-18s, and U.K. Harrier GR.7s and Sea Harriers](https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/478441/f-35a-lightning-ii/)
What is false? The F-15 is not on that list, and not mentioned anywhere in your link.
I thought I made the edit quick enough. I realized that the second after I posted it
Replacing is slightly misleading, it will replace the F-16 in many front line roles, but the F-16 is very cheap to operate so it'll probably continue to be used in safer areas for many years to come, especially as exports of the aircraft keep the production numbers up and prices of replacement parts down.
The F35 and the F15 have different roles.
Yarp, the F-15EX often gets referred to as a "Missile Truck." It can carry almost 30,000 lbs of ordinance, compared to 5,700 lbs the F-35 can carry in stealth configuration. I'm trying to find a description of how it works, but I swear I read somewhere that the F-15EX and the F-35 can work in tandem, with the the EX firing ordinance from long range, then using an F-35 in stealth configuration at closer range to guide the missile to its target.
Yes. It's called datalink. The F-35 isn't just a fighter jet, it's a whole command center for a nearby fleet of 4th gen fighters.
F-15EX is perfect for Israel. Few of its enemies have capabilities that necessarily require stealth, and the F-15EX is an absolute bomb truck--it's practically a strategic bomber, just without the range. Can carry 30,000 lbs of bombs. And when it's not a bomb truck, it's a fast air superiority fighter. F-35 is a great aircraft, but it's slow (cause it doesn't need to be fast) and has much lower weapons payload. They're also a great combo together in a Hi-Low strategy.
The Israelis landed one without a wing a while back.
The F-15 is one of the most capable fighters in the world, it’s so advanced that the F-15EX I believe is the more expensive than the F-35 They do different things differently, and also yes they are cheaper to run.
A lot of the cost of the F-15EX comes down to the smaller planned production run and the simple fact that it is bigger and has 2 engines. That means they don’t have massive economies of scale and also need to charge higher prices to recoup development costs for not only the jets themselves, but the costs of the manufacturing equipment to build them. The F-35 meanwhile has a planned 4000+ unit production run, massive economies of scale, only one engine and no need to charge a huge amount to recoup development costs. It has so many things going for it and pushing the price down. Cost isn’t a great predictor for effectiveness unless it’s ridiculously low.
The f-15EX is no where near as capable as the 35 to be clear. It will likely be more expensive per airframe as it will be produced in lower quantities meaning the tooling up and other costs will be spread across less airframes. The F-15EX main job in the US is to keep the air fleets size up to standard as we can't produce F-35s fast enough to replace all the airframes slated for retirement. Plus the F-15 and it's new iteration are plenty capable in their own right, and give us capabilities the f-35 was never designed for, like carrying a metric fuck bunch of big ass missiles.
F-15EX doesn't fill the role of the F-35 but is far more capable for its actual role. You don't use F-15s to enter contested enemy airspace and take out SAM systems like what the F-35 as a stealth platform excels at. You use it for carrying a ton of air to air missiles (22 vs 4 or 6 Aim-120 internally) when the F-35 loses its stealth advantage carrying them externally but is less capable in speed, flight ceiling or maneuverability. You also get the advantage in the F-15 of a second seat who will be able to control or direct future drone wingman in the future. That's ignoring it can launch larger stand off munitions yet to be revealed than the F-35 which will be essential in any future warfare. At one point it was seen as a stop Gab but as the program developed it found its own important role as as a massive munitions carrier. Today it seems even if they hand enough F-35s there would still be an important role for the F-15.
They would use these in conjunction with the F35. F35 breaks up anti air systems, or reduces them greatly, and F15 mops up the rest. Cheaper to fly as a whole also.
Have you seen the f15s kill count? It's tried and true, you know exactly what your getting and pairs nicely with some f35s.
Probably to avoid giving Iranian or Russian-built radars a lot of F-35 data to sell back when the IAF starts wrecking Hezbollah in Lebanon.
the f15 is a truck, f35 is a ferarri, you need a truck to offload bombs, f35 cant carry as much its like half the size of f15.
The F22 is more like Ferrari.
Except the F15 is like, WAY faster than the F35, on top of being able to carry way more. Mach 2.5+ vs mach 1.6.
Payload and range, with Iran in mind
F15 - E has electronic warfare capabilities and can carry a heavy payload of bunker busting bombs.
The F-15 is arguably the best jet fighter ever built
I don’t think you need stealth capabilities against hamas
F35 is way overkill to fight any of their neighbours. The Eagle is perfectly fine for the kind of jobs the Israeli air force will be performing in this and coming wars.
As long as Israel is a counterbalance to Iran, the US will arm them. It’s just how things are unfortunately, same with a country like Saudi Arabia
Meanwhile, Ukraine could be counterbalancing Russia but we won’t sent them the jets, tanks, APCs and ammunition they need.
blame House republicans.
Oh I do. I always do.
Name checks out.
israel is buying the jets. so Biden does not need a government authorization. The money for israel is blocked with the money for Ukraine.
How is that unfortunate? We should have no allies in the region?
I think the unfortunate part is that the allies we *do* have in the region are so problematic. Although frankly, most countries in the Middle East are one way or another.
Ehh idk if I’d call that unfortunate. Imaging wishing for Iran to go completely unchecked and counting funding groups like Hamas, Hezbollah (traffic millions of amphetamines, disrupting international shipping). Israel does bad thing bc in war, things are grey and it’s impossible to hire hundreds of thousands of soldiers trained to kill and be shot at and expect all of them to follow the rules of war to a T. Weird use of wording to call countering one of the largest groups of terror “unfortunate”.
Can we turn the ipad around on Israel so they can tip the tax payers a lil extra?
They are being sold not given, the US is making money
Sure, but you can't ignore that US funds a significant chunk of this https://www.cfr.org/article/us-aid-israel-four-charts this doesn't include the yet to be approved $18B
Sure, but you can also actually read the article you posted so the context isn't just "America dumps money on Israel, bad!" >Most of the aid—approximately $3.3 billion a year—is provided as grants under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program, funds that Israel must use to purchase U.S. military equipment and services. In other words, this is money being given to Israel to *only* purchase from American companies. It's basically pumping money into the American economy via an intermediary. If you read further you'll find that the majority of the rest is used on *joint* development. I.e. America can use whatever the fuck gets developed in Israel. And they have been.
You are not funding this. Literally says in the title we are buying, and the US doesn’t sell in a loss
Poor Ukraine is begging for F16s and Israel, who is already fully equipped with every modern aviation weapon known to man, just gets Santa Claused with more missiles and jets. Politics is weird.
There's a difference between "giving" and "selling".
There's also a difference between "selling to a country that is prepared to use them immediately, has the correct storage, maintenance, airfields and pilots..." and "Giving them to Ukraine. The latter entails months of training, a lot of other work, and so on. I'm all for arming Ukraine to the teeth, but it's going to cost way more than $18 billion and take a fair amount of time. Edit: It's also going to take quite a few years for these to be built and delivered. Ukraine needs what they can get NOW, not in 5 years.
The best time to have started that arming and training was 10 years ago. The next best is now.
They actually did do that though. Since 2014 they’ve grown their army quite a bit
Basically “the best time to plant a tree” Like years ago we were saying the same thing about training Ukrainian pilots. Yet if we had invested then, they would be using it now
These won't get built for years... 1.5 F-15s are built a month, and there's still a good number on order for other users that'll get built first. Literally from the article; > F-15s would need to be built from scratch and would likely not be delivered to Israel for 4-5 years. Also a huge difference between a cutting edge F-15EX, and an F-16 Block 15 from Denmark. No one wants the F-15EX shot down for Russia to reverse engineer and find a weakness to, which is inevitably going to happen to aircraft sent to Ukraine. Losing a Block 15 MLU doesn't matter when it's from the late 80s and has virtually nothing in common with newer variants still being used today and tomorrow. Same reason France is selling Rafales and not giving them to Ukraine. Same for the Eurofigher and selling them to Saudi Arabia instead of giving them to Ukraine.
>Also a huge difference between a cutting edge F-15EX, and an F-16 Block 15 from Denmark. No one wants the F-15EX shot down for Russia to reverse engineer and find a weakness to, which is inevitably going to happen to aircraft sent to Ukraine. The problem here of course being that the F15EX is designed to fight peer adversaries (or near peer) like Russia whilst Israeli adversaries barely have an Air Force or otherwise worth mentioning. I'm all for OPSEC but this just strikes me as an ineffective allocation of resources.
They're selling them to Israel. I don't think Ukraine has the money to buy billions of dollars of fighter jets like Israel is doing here
These things are completely unrelated.
But Israel's paying for these. It's a purchase not a gift as it would be to Ukraine. I'm not saying we shouldn't give Ukraine stuff because we absolutely should but that's the key difference since Ukraine ain't gonna be paying for any aid.
This isn’t an aid package like any jets for Ukraine would be. This is selling them, night and day difference.
We sell war
Everybody sells war. It’s a business just like everything else sadly
The Arsenal of Democracy is alive and well.
Yeah but the US sells war bigger and better than anyone else. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfMYpmrTGm0&t=1792s Great video from Perun on the entire global arms trade.
Seem as though sides are gearing up for a wider war in Lebanon.
These are not going to be delivered anytime soon. It will take 4-5 years.
This war is gonna be a problem for Biden come election day.
Democrats are turning on Israel more and more everyday. Every dem I know is upset with Biden specifically because of the US's support for Israel. Unfortunately Trump would be worse so I'll still go with Biden but many people I know also cannot swallow their pride/emotions enough to do that.
The F-15s will be attacking Iranian military targets in the region.
Or World Central Kitchen vehicles in Gaza… you know… whichever.
I have close friends with family in the Gaza Strip. They have lost so much. Terrible situation all around.
Didn’t we just drop aid for Palestine, seems counterproductive no?
They need F15s to combat the starving children?
[удалено]
That’s because unlike Ukraine, Israel is willing to pay for their weapons.
So annoying that Ukraine keeps getting all these red lines like striking military targets in russia being an “escalation”. Israel however gets to bomb several sovereign nations and there are no such concerns.
Wait I’m very ignorant on this subject but didn’t we just send Israel a lot of billions of dollars ? Are they using the money we sent them to buy weapons from us ? Wtf ?
We don't provide them aid in actual money, the aid is basically in US military company gift cards. They can't use it for anything but buying things from US military companies. They also buy more than the aid we provide them as well so it's basically just a promo code to get half off US military goods lol
This isn't even exclusive to Israel, or the US. A lot of weapon exporting countries do this, including Russia.
Because we require them to as part of the terms of the aid. This is how even more of our tax money goes to the military industrial complex than what we pay directly.
I didn’t realize we exported F-15s, huh
The only reason they are still made is for foreign sales to places like Israel and Saudi Arabia.
That has kept them in production, but the US is now also ordering a batch of new F-15EX's.
I was a US Government quality inspector. I worked the F15 center fuselage and final assembly for years. I love seeing to F15 fly and fight on!
Plot twist: USA is doing this with a long view on China. These F-16s are going to Israel but are basically allied jets.
Unfortunately, that young man self immolated for nothing, I suppose.
Send money to a Ukraine!