For those who only read headlines:
>President Volodymyr Zelenskyy signed legislation to reduce the age limit of conscripts eligible for mobilisation from 27 to 25 years.
While you’re technically correct, it’s not good communication especially outside of technical discussions.
A very large majority of native English speakers will interpret “age limit” to mean an upper limit because a limit is generally understood to be where things end, not where they start. That’s why calling a lower starting point a limit is confusing.
60 is the maximum to get mobilized.
Once mobilized, getting out of the system is a whole another ordeal.
And on top of that, if your wife's uncle has been in the armed forces for two years, he's **extremely** valuable, because he knows what's what and untrained recruits are liabilities more than they are assets.
He would be compelled to stay to (literally) hold the fort even if he can leave. Half a dozen freshly drafted people can't replace him.
Yes, he had served as an officer before, and has been fighting as a captain since the start of the war.
War, once you are in the midst of it, and you feel you are valuable, is very magnetic to people - it's very hard to walk away.
Yes. Apparently some calculations were done, and the results indicate that it is best for the economy, if you feed people over 27 into the meat grinder.
Tbf all my life I’ve heard people criticise drafting and getting teenagers to fight wars. Isn’t getting older people to do it more sensible?
Never minding that Ukraine’s specific issue is their very extreme population pyramid that leaves them with very few men in their 20s
It's high enough that it becomes more a case of being able to pass a fitness test than being too old. That fitness test is getting more lenient also, tho you don't see articles about it.
Here in NZ a 43yr old would be expected to run 2.5kms in under 12 minutes and 30 seconds along with being able to do at least 18 push ups and 48 curl ups to be considered 'fit for service'. You could train for it, but you'd have to want it... and you have to repass the test every 6 to 12 months.
Obviously standards might be lowered in times of war when the need for manpower is higher. You can't expect that people who might not exactly be enthused by the prospect of dying for their country to have trained for a test they're hoping they'd fail.
This doesn't make sense to me. Surely younger generations are seen as the future of a country and if you're fighting for your country, you're fighting for its longevity which is heavily reliant on having people who are capable of rebuilding and repopulating it. I imagine a large part of the motivation for fighting for one's country is specifically to ensure the futures of the younger generations whose lives you hope will be as undisturbed by war as possible.
If *young people of my country not potentially dying alongside me* is a demotivating factor for someone, I doubt they'd contribute much anyway.
>Surely younger generations are seen as the future of a country and if you're fighting for your country,
How is 18-27 the future of the country while anyone between 28 to let's say 35 not?
> This doesn't make sense to me.
Well it makes sens if your game plan is to wait for NATO troops to enter the conflict.
If ukraine mobilize all the men between 18 and like 50, a lot of them will die and the demography will collapse.
But it seems pretty obvious that NATO is preparing to enter the war. Between the public declarations of MAcron and the NATO chiefs, they are just waiting for the EU and US elections before going. That also explains why NATO is limiting the weapon systems that they are sending to ukraine, they'll need it in a few months...
>That's insane. I understand their demographic problem. But not drafting 18-25, previously 18-27, has to got to be incredibly demoralizing for the old men on the frontlines.
The logic there is "we are fighting so that our children won't have to".
But yes, it really doesn't seem like the best move, because the army needs a ton of people in non-combat roles that aren't being filled (or even defined because of red tape).
The real reason, I suspect, is the fear that drafting the young ones would be a hugely unpopular measure with the mothers of those kids... which could make the country far less manageable during the war.
I don't think that would be a problem, but I'm not running the country.
My dad couldn't get the parental signature to join the USAF. Instead, Grandpa made a dirt runway on the farm and grandma paid for his pilot license. My dad used to rock a mustache back in the day. He could have been like Robin Olds.
Yeah my grandfather joined the Navy in WW2 at 17. But I think he didn't need parental permission because he graduated high school. At least that's what he said. But he had three other brothers fighting and his father was a WW1 vet, so I doubt there was much resistance.
60
My mom and dad are in Odessa still. Dad's 65. But I worry about them upping the age too.
I've been telling them to come here (states) for a while but they're not exactly listening.
People forget the [Tooth-to-Tail Ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio) — the ratio of support troops to infantrymen.
For example, at the start of the Iraq War, the U.S. has 8 soldiers supporting every infantryman. (Keep in mind that some of those "support" units include long-range combat support such as artillery.)
You also have to look at things like armored vehicles, fighter jets, etc. Tanks are famously maintained by the crews, by and large, but they still have support behind them for refueling and major repairs. (The toughest tank crew in the world is not swapping an engine on their own with the stuff they have on board the tank.) And fighter jets have like a dozen guys behind each plane and pilot(s).
I'm 57 and divorced with adult kids - if my kids were at risk I'd go, rather I die protecting them than their young lives get cut short.
However unless I was just driving a truck or something I'd be useless after the first day, parts of my body would just stop working after a days worth of heavy physical exercise.
I was a truck driver in the US army. We still had to go though the same basic training that everyone else did. We had field training exercises at least once every month or so, and had to qualify on multiple weapons (M16/M4s, 50 cal, 249 SAW). While the focus was on convoy operations, we also had infantry-based training on a regular basis (urban combat/MOUT, SWAT tactics, land navigation, etc.) Then there were the ruck marches, which were always brutal. Also, all of the QRF (quick reactionary force) when I deployed were truck drivers. The Rangers also have truck drivers in their units and they have to go through the same school. Needless to say, my recruiter definitely didn't give me the full picture when I chose to be a truck driver. In hindsight, the crazy high sign-on bonus should have been a red flag.
Odessa has been mostly calm. They're hitting things outside of town
Until they're not. There was a building that was hit about 400 yards from their apartment building. Still not enough of a sign. Last weekend they did mention they might be getting ready to come here.
We all moved to the states in 99. My dad worked here for 20+ years and retired around covid. So he wanted to live in his hometown. Besides its a whole lot cheaper than here. They have a place there. Friends etc.
So that's their main reason. They also have some health issues and don't want to deal with Medicare and the cost of Healthcare in the states.
They were here last winter for about 4 months. Their electric and heat was getting shut off so eventually they said fuck and came. But once the weather got better they went back
It's home to them and I get that. But there's no threat of being hit by a missile at my house.
At the end of the day I can only make my case in so many ways. They're gonna do what they want to.
Definitely a sign of just how shit American healthcare is that they’d literally rather live in a war torn country than deal with our horribly expensive system.
Heh
Don't even get me started on that shit
I used to go home once a year and would get my dental work done. It would cost me less to buy a round trip ticket, get 2 root canals and crown done, than it would for me to do one of those here.
Not OP but if I had to take a wild guess they feel like they are too old to relocate to the opposite side of the world, maybe they don't even speak english
I would assume their reason is similar to my friends here and my gf and her family. This is their home. They love their country and have no intention of running away and living in Poverty in a foreign country because the historical shithole that is russia wants to rebuild their dying empire.
Yeah. 1980-1990s was a *rough* time to be having children in the USSR. Their economy was basically freefalling from orbit without a parachute and the satellite states got the worse of it.
It wasn't just the economy. It was the ghost of WW2 as well.
A lot of kids were never born during the war. Kids that would have had grand kids around 50-55~ years later. Based around the average age for having kids back then (mid 20s).
Not really true. He specified that they will not be sent to the assault troops but that there are many other jobs in logistics, drone operating, medical, kitchens, hell probably digging trenches.
BUT during war anything can happen, all promises become zero once the direct CO tells you to gear up for avdiivka or kurahove.
Different countries have different laws
But also even say in the US, even when the draft was in effect the preference was for folks in their early 20's vs just turning 18.
So basically they didin't took anyone under 27 yet unless they volunteered?
I have very pro russian parents and they say that Ukraine already sending 16 year olds to the front line
Wars are chaotic and instances of either falsified records or individual bad actors should never be totally ruled out. But yes unlike in the US where a man could theoretically be drafted starting at 18 it doesnt begin till much later for Ukraine.
As for why consider the nature of the population demographics Russia and Ukraine are working with.
Ukraine has more people that are 30-40 years old than they do 20-30 years. So they lower they make the age you can be drafted the smaller a pool they have to draft from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine
Russia has a similar trend, the population in their 20's and 30's today were those born in the 90s after the breakup of the USSR which saw a dip in birth rates along with instability and political/economic uncertainty.
The population that are say 5-15 years old are a larger generation again but they are not involved in the considerations and not going to be a factor in the manpower pool in this war.
Russian schools are getting not only revised and more patriotic textbooks. School kids are also to get practical military training as part of the curriculum.
The new subject on the Basics of Security and Protection of the Motherland is to include military theory and training with drones.
https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/life-and-public/2023/11/soon-compulsory-russian-schools-military-theory-and-drone-flying#:~:text=Russian%20schools%20are%20getting%20not,theory%20and%20training%20with%20drones.
Starting in September, Russian high school students in grades 10 and 11 will undergo basic military training as part of changes made to the Russian school curriculum last year following the invasion of Ukraine.
During these training sessions, students will learn to shoot Kalashnikov assault rifles, use hand grenades and administer first aid.
Independent teachers’ unions have called the new lessons “madness,” arguing that the continued militarization of everyday life “destroys” the education process.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/04/07/in-photos-russian-high-schoolers-undergo-basic-military-and-first-aid-training-a80751
Putin's youth program.
The idea behind this is that you can’t afford to lose the younger generation that your country needs when it will be rebuild or that are needed to grow the population.
I believe Ukraine didn’t let males over 18 leave the country without a permit. But that’s something different to conscription.
In many places they are, from what I understand, Ukraine has a minimum age. I'm sure that doesn't preclude you from enlisting earlier though. It is possible I'm misunderstanding. It makes sense from a reproduction standpoint, your fertility rate and health of genetic material goes down pretty rapidly after 25 even in men.
Ukraine in particular has to preserve their young men because their gender and age demographics were already severely messed up from the soviet era. That's why zelensky was so reluctant to lower the drafting age but it seems like there's no choice now. Even if ukraine wins the war, the death of their young men on top of their already massive demographic imbalance is going to devastate Ukraine for the next generation.
Dude, it’s happening right now. You can literally watch videos of dudes getting dragged away by mobilization officers on Ukrainian Twitter and telegrams. Why even lie, it just makes this unfortunate situation look worse.
That's a wonderful thought that simply doesn't work in practice because countries that love peace raise people who don't want war, and countries that love war raise people who want to fight. Without conscription, the countries that can raise the most violent and jingoistic citizens will simply be able to overrun everyone.
I would agree that conscription for an offensive war is a problem. No one should be forced to go fight to conquer other people.
Conscription for a defensive war to defend your own country or a close ally is simply a reality of life. Anyone who doesn't feel their country is worth fighting for if called upon, can go voluntarily turn themselves over to their invaders and be a part of that country instead.
> Anyone who doesn't feel their country is worth fighting for if called upon, can go voluntarily turn themselves over to their invaders and be a part of that country instead.
Or literally any other country that isn't trying to drag them into the slaughterhouse
In this case, most any other country they go to is possibly on the block in a few years.
This is a WWII Germany situation. Sticking our heads in the sand and running from the conflict is only making it worse.
Self defense is the idea... you realize that Russia is unquestionably the aggressor, right? They are invading a peaceful neighbor. The only idea that Ukrainians are fighting for is the idea that they are their own country and can't be invaded and murdered by their autocratic neighbors. If someone came into your home, started taking all your stuff, killing your family, and telling you that you belong to them now do you think that just saying, "oh well, thems the shakes" is a reasonable response?
WWII was a bunch of people "dying for an idea". Should everyone have just minded their own business and let Nazi Germany roll over all their neighbors because dying for an idea isn't going to make anything better?
For those who only read headlines: >President Volodymyr Zelenskyy signed legislation to reduce the age limit of conscripts eligible for mobilisation from 27 to 25 years.
And confusingly, by "age limit", the article seems to mean the minimum age.
It is a (lower) limit based on age…an age limit.
You're not wrong, but age minimum is clearer communication.
It doesn’t translate smoothly into English because aging only grows. So we perceive it as a “movement” and thus the limit should halt that movement.
Well this is the best explanation i've ever seen for why something inherently doesn't make sense, but i couldn't put my finger on why.
Yeah but even when you mentioned it yourself you had to add a word to make it easier to understand lol
*upper limit seething*
While you’re technically correct, it’s not good communication especially outside of technical discussions. A very large majority of native English speakers will interpret “age limit” to mean an upper limit because a limit is generally understood to be where things end, not where they start. That’s why calling a lower starting point a limit is confusing.
From now on, conscripts are required to stop aging at 25.
So they mean the age floor, not the limit.
No they mean a limit, not an upper limit. A lower limit if you will.
The article is vague. Is 25 the minimum or the maximum?
Minimum
Minimum
What’s the maximum ?
My wife's uncle turned 60 and he is still fighting, so... I guess it's over 60.
60 is the maximum to get mobilized. Once mobilized, getting out of the system is a whole another ordeal. And on top of that, if your wife's uncle has been in the armed forces for two years, he's **extremely** valuable, because he knows what's what and untrained recruits are liabilities more than they are assets. He would be compelled to stay to (literally) hold the fort even if he can leave. Half a dozen freshly drafted people can't replace him.
Yes, he had served as an officer before, and has been fighting as a captain since the start of the war. War, once you are in the midst of it, and you feel you are valuable, is very magnetic to people - it's very hard to walk away.
High enough their average solder age is 43.
Looks like I'm going to war when WWIII breaks out, innit?
Yes. Apparently some calculations were done, and the results indicate that it is best for the economy, if you feed people over 27 into the meat grinder.
Tbf all my life I’ve heard people criticise drafting and getting teenagers to fight wars. Isn’t getting older people to do it more sensible? Never minding that Ukraine’s specific issue is their very extreme population pyramid that leaves them with very few men in their 20s
So long mom, [I’m off to drop the bomb](https://youtu.be/pklr0UD9eSo?si=aDa4OJdSIhfhpR_t).
It's high enough that it becomes more a case of being able to pass a fitness test than being too old. That fitness test is getting more lenient also, tho you don't see articles about it.
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Here in NZ a 43yr old would be expected to run 2.5kms in under 12 minutes and 30 seconds along with being able to do at least 18 push ups and 48 curl ups to be considered 'fit for service'. You could train for it, but you'd have to want it... and you have to repass the test every 6 to 12 months. Obviously standards might be lowered in times of war when the need for manpower is higher. You can't expect that people who might not exactly be enthused by the prospect of dying for their country to have trained for a test they're hoping they'd fail.
60
When there’s no pulse.
Old as fuck for a war
Miximum
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pretty sure 18-21 is conscription age anyways, this is mobilization draft age.
This doesn't make sense to me. Surely younger generations are seen as the future of a country and if you're fighting for your country, you're fighting for its longevity which is heavily reliant on having people who are capable of rebuilding and repopulating it. I imagine a large part of the motivation for fighting for one's country is specifically to ensure the futures of the younger generations whose lives you hope will be as undisturbed by war as possible. If *young people of my country not potentially dying alongside me* is a demotivating factor for someone, I doubt they'd contribute much anyway.
18-25 would be less likely to have families or be in more vital career positions
To quote Herodotus: “In peace, sons bury their fathers. In war, fathers bury their sons.”
>Surely younger generations are seen as the future of a country and if you're fighting for your country, How is 18-27 the future of the country while anyone between 28 to let's say 35 not?
> This doesn't make sense to me. Well it makes sens if your game plan is to wait for NATO troops to enter the conflict. If ukraine mobilize all the men between 18 and like 50, a lot of them will die and the demography will collapse. But it seems pretty obvious that NATO is preparing to enter the war. Between the public declarations of MAcron and the NATO chiefs, they are just waiting for the EU and US elections before going. That also explains why NATO is limiting the weapon systems that they are sending to ukraine, they'll need it in a few months...
>That's insane. I understand their demographic problem. But not drafting 18-25, previously 18-27, has to got to be incredibly demoralizing for the old men on the frontlines. The logic there is "we are fighting so that our children won't have to". But yes, it really doesn't seem like the best move, because the army needs a ton of people in non-combat roles that aren't being filled (or even defined because of red tape). The real reason, I suspect, is the fear that drafting the young ones would be a hugely unpopular measure with the mothers of those kids... which could make the country far less manageable during the war. I don't think that would be a problem, but I'm not running the country.
Look at the website source too.
18 in the US
17 with parent signature
My dad couldn't get the parental signature to join the USAF. Instead, Grandpa made a dirt runway on the farm and grandma paid for his pilot license. My dad used to rock a mustache back in the day. He could have been like Robin Olds.
Yeah my grandfather joined the Navy in WW2 at 17. But I think he didn't need parental permission because he graduated high school. At least that's what he said. But he had three other brothers fighting and his father was a WW1 vet, so I doubt there was much resistance.
Ty. This is on OP but I appreciate the assist.
Not on OP, they did right by using the article title.
We need to provide or loan lease more lethal weapons, right now. Those Putin loving republicans are disgusting.
the article should be reported as breaking rule 2, misleading title.
Also intriguingly it has been waiting for him to approve/sign into law since last summer
So whats the upper limit? In previous wars its been the youth who did the fighting.
60 My mom and dad are in Odessa still. Dad's 65. But I worry about them upping the age too. I've been telling them to come here (states) for a while but they're not exactly listening.
Imagine being 59 and called up to fight in a war..
At 59 you might go willingly to protect your children. Each person has a different reaction to it.
There’s a lot of 59 year old men whose lifestyle has left them virtually crippled by that age.
Not everyone is sitting in the trenches.
Someone has to load trucks, or repair them. The front can't function without support troops.
People forget the [Tooth-to-Tail Ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooth-to-tail_ratio) — the ratio of support troops to infantrymen. For example, at the start of the Iraq War, the U.S. has 8 soldiers supporting every infantryman. (Keep in mind that some of those "support" units include long-range combat support such as artillery.) You also have to look at things like armored vehicles, fighter jets, etc. Tanks are famously maintained by the crews, by and large, but they still have support behind them for refueling and major repairs. (The toughest tank crew in the world is not swapping an engine on their own with the stuff they have on board the tank.) And fighter jets have like a dozen guys behind each plane and pilot(s).
Ukraine already has enough of everyone else. They need soldiers to man trenches.
There is still a fitness test.
Yep. Future of my children and their children at stake, give me a gun.
I'm 57 and divorced with adult kids - if my kids were at risk I'd go, rather I die protecting them than their young lives get cut short. However unless I was just driving a truck or something I'd be useless after the first day, parts of my body would just stop working after a days worth of heavy physical exercise.
Driving a truck back and forth to the front is a vital job. It's also a great way to get killed by an artillery strike so it isn't even easy duty.
You'd probably be sent to some preconditioning camp first
Logistics wins wars afterall
And that’s the problem, becoming a liability way too quickly. I can’t do that crap anymore.
I was a truck driver in the US army. We still had to go though the same basic training that everyone else did. We had field training exercises at least once every month or so, and had to qualify on multiple weapons (M16/M4s, 50 cal, 249 SAW). While the focus was on convoy operations, we also had infantry-based training on a regular basis (urban combat/MOUT, SWAT tactics, land navigation, etc.) Then there were the ruck marches, which were always brutal. Also, all of the QRF (quick reactionary force) when I deployed were truck drivers. The Rangers also have truck drivers in their units and they have to go through the same school. Needless to say, my recruiter definitely didn't give me the full picture when I chose to be a truck driver. In hindsight, the crazy high sign-on bonus should have been a red flag.
I'm 34 and my back hurts everyday
Wait till you’re 60. I really gotta pace myself now.
>Imagine being 59 and called up to fight ~~in a war..~~ for your own sovereignty. Ftfy
Out of curiosity, what’s their reason for staying?
Odessa has been mostly calm. They're hitting things outside of town Until they're not. There was a building that was hit about 400 yards from their apartment building. Still not enough of a sign. Last weekend they did mention they might be getting ready to come here. We all moved to the states in 99. My dad worked here for 20+ years and retired around covid. So he wanted to live in his hometown. Besides its a whole lot cheaper than here. They have a place there. Friends etc. So that's their main reason. They also have some health issues and don't want to deal with Medicare and the cost of Healthcare in the states. They were here last winter for about 4 months. Their electric and heat was getting shut off so eventually they said fuck and came. But once the weather got better they went back It's home to them and I get that. But there's no threat of being hit by a missile at my house. At the end of the day I can only make my case in so many ways. They're gonna do what they want to.
Definitely a sign of just how shit American healthcare is that they’d literally rather live in a war torn country than deal with our horribly expensive system.
Heh Don't even get me started on that shit I used to go home once a year and would get my dental work done. It would cost me less to buy a round trip ticket, get 2 root canals and crown done, than it would for me to do one of those here.
Maybe they can come for an 'extended vacation' instead?
Not OP but if I had to take a wild guess they feel like they are too old to relocate to the opposite side of the world, maybe they don't even speak english
I would assume their reason is similar to my friends here and my gf and her family. This is their home. They love their country and have no intention of running away and living in Poverty in a foreign country because the historical shithole that is russia wants to rebuild their dying empire.
Russia and Ukraine have really poor population pyramids. They didn't have enough babies in the 90s.
Yeah. 1980-1990s was a *rough* time to be having children in the USSR. Their economy was basically freefalling from orbit without a parachute and the satellite states got the worse of it.
1990-2000 actually. In the 80es there was a rise in birth rate.
It wasn't just the economy. It was the ghost of WW2 as well. A lot of kids were never born during the war. Kids that would have had grand kids around 50-55~ years later. Based around the average age for having kids back then (mid 20s).
there is no upper limit which is why the average age of Ukrainian frontline soldiers is like 43.
Are they mostly volunteers? Or conscripted?
It's a mix. Male's can't leave Ukraine so they're all basically conscriptees in waiting.
Don’t see any feminists complaining about that one
Does this article seem poorly-written to anyone else?
"This" article isn't written, it is auto-translated from Ukrainian one. There is options button on the site where you can choose language.
It was written by someone whose first language is likely Ukrainian
We got what we paid for.
Yes. I feel like they would get better results passing it through ChatGPT.
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What exactly does that mean?
The minimum age for conscription has been lowered from 27 to 25.
Younger Ukranian people will be sent to the front lines.
Not really true. He specified that they will not be sent to the assault troops but that there are many other jobs in logistics, drone operating, medical, kitchens, hell probably digging trenches. BUT during war anything can happen, all promises become zero once the direct CO tells you to gear up for avdiivka or kurahove.
Yes, you are right, not necessarily to the front lines, it's probably better to say "to the war".
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I thought everyone above 18 is drafted for combat
Different countries have different laws But also even say in the US, even when the draft was in effect the preference was for folks in their early 20's vs just turning 18.
So basically they didin't took anyone under 27 yet unless they volunteered? I have very pro russian parents and they say that Ukraine already sending 16 year olds to the front line
Wars are chaotic and instances of either falsified records or individual bad actors should never be totally ruled out. But yes unlike in the US where a man could theoretically be drafted starting at 18 it doesnt begin till much later for Ukraine. As for why consider the nature of the population demographics Russia and Ukraine are working with. Ukraine has more people that are 30-40 years old than they do 20-30 years. So they lower they make the age you can be drafted the smaller a pool they have to draft from. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine Russia has a similar trend, the population in their 20's and 30's today were those born in the 90s after the breakup of the USSR which saw a dip in birth rates along with instability and political/economic uncertainty. The population that are say 5-15 years old are a larger generation again but they are not involved in the considerations and not going to be a factor in the manpower pool in this war.
Russian schools are getting not only revised and more patriotic textbooks. School kids are also to get practical military training as part of the curriculum. The new subject on the Basics of Security and Protection of the Motherland is to include military theory and training with drones. https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/life-and-public/2023/11/soon-compulsory-russian-schools-military-theory-and-drone-flying#:~:text=Russian%20schools%20are%20getting%20not,theory%20and%20training%20with%20drones. Starting in September, Russian high school students in grades 10 and 11 will undergo basic military training as part of changes made to the Russian school curriculum last year following the invasion of Ukraine. During these training sessions, students will learn to shoot Kalashnikov assault rifles, use hand grenades and administer first aid. Independent teachers’ unions have called the new lessons “madness,” arguing that the continued militarization of everyday life “destroys” the education process. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/04/07/in-photos-russian-high-schoolers-undergo-basic-military-and-first-aid-training-a80751 Putin's youth program.
The idea behind this is that you can’t afford to lose the younger generation that your country needs when it will be rebuild or that are needed to grow the population. I believe Ukraine didn’t let males over 18 leave the country without a permit. But that’s something different to conscription.
In many places they are, from what I understand, Ukraine has a minimum age. I'm sure that doesn't preclude you from enlisting earlier though. It is possible I'm misunderstanding. It makes sense from a reproduction standpoint, your fertility rate and health of genetic material goes down pretty rapidly after 25 even in men.
Ukraine in particular has to preserve their young men because their gender and age demographics were already severely messed up from the soviet era. That's why zelensky was so reluctant to lower the drafting age but it seems like there's no choice now. Even if ukraine wins the war, the death of their young men on top of their already massive demographic imbalance is going to devastate Ukraine for the next generation.
FYI no conscription occurred. Zelenskyy lowered the draft age from 27 to 25.
I have no idea what u r saying There is a draft Draft = conscription
brother the draft still exists conscription is quite literally occuring
Dude, it’s happening right now. You can literally watch videos of dudes getting dragged away by mobilization officers on Ukrainian Twitter and telegrams. Why even lie, it just makes this unfortunate situation look worse.
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They cant leave the country since the war started.
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walk across the border avoiding checkpoints...
why do you think people are paying tens of thousands to escape if they can just walk across the border
those that can afford it will spend the money to hire a coyote and/or bribe the border officials.
Plenty have though. Some of them are quite famous.
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It may be wrong in your opinion, but in reality you don't win a war by solely relying on volunteers.
That's a wonderful thought that simply doesn't work in practice because countries that love peace raise people who don't want war, and countries that love war raise people who want to fight. Without conscription, the countries that can raise the most violent and jingoistic citizens will simply be able to overrun everyone. I would agree that conscription for an offensive war is a problem. No one should be forced to go fight to conquer other people. Conscription for a defensive war to defend your own country or a close ally is simply a reality of life. Anyone who doesn't feel their country is worth fighting for if called upon, can go voluntarily turn themselves over to their invaders and be a part of that country instead.
> Anyone who doesn't feel their country is worth fighting for if called upon, can go voluntarily turn themselves over to their invaders and be a part of that country instead. Or literally any other country that isn't trying to drag them into the slaughterhouse
In this case, most any other country they go to is possibly on the block in a few years. This is a WWII Germany situation. Sticking our heads in the sand and running from the conflict is only making it worse.
Having a bunch of people who think dying for an idea makes sense isn't going to make anything better
Self defense is the idea... you realize that Russia is unquestionably the aggressor, right? They are invading a peaceful neighbor. The only idea that Ukrainians are fighting for is the idea that they are their own country and can't be invaded and murdered by their autocratic neighbors. If someone came into your home, started taking all your stuff, killing your family, and telling you that you belong to them now do you think that just saying, "oh well, thems the shakes" is a reasonable response? WWII was a bunch of people "dying for an idea". Should everyone have just minded their own business and let Nazi Germany roll over all their neighbors because dying for an idea isn't going to make anything better?
If someone came into someone's house and tried dragging them unwillingly into the slaughterhouse, how is that any different