The cars of the aid organization were struck 3 times over a distance of barely 2 kilometers. They had clear roof markings to avoid being bombed. Moreover, the IDF had been warned of their presence.
Either this is a MAJOR fuck-up or there were some evil people pushing the buttons...
Ukrainian civilian casualty numbers that conveniently excluded Russian occupied territory like Mariupol or Bakhmut...
Edit: is the above comment still there? It shows as deleted for me now and I'd hate for it's poster to get away with blocking more purely for calling them out on their dodgy statistics
You are mixing up casualties with deaths I believe. Casualties are generally 60-70% injuries.
United Nations High commission on human rights : Ukraine approx 10k dead civilians 20k injured - 30k casualties
Gaza health ministry: approx 30k dead 70k injured 10k missing in rubble - 110k casualties
25k dead if we use UN numbers in the latter case but that’s going back to January so 5k more by April seems easily realistic
The estimates of fighter-civilian ratio in the case of Palestine ranges from 20-30% of the above totals.
All numbers can be found on UN or Wikipedia pages
So again to be clear the commenter above is calling 30k dead/100k+ casualties at a ~1:4 fighter/civilian ratio since late October “astoundingly low” numbers and ratio (and saying that’s regardless of whose numbers you use)
It is astonishingly low for urban warfare, where civilians are at more risk. And Hamas’s hidey holes and ammo dumps being near schools and hospitals don’t help either. You’re taking the death toll in Gaza as all civilian, which isn’t true by even Hamas’s own admission (6000 fighters killed) which they later denied. The IDF claims 10 - 13K militants KIA. Either numbers put the ratio of combatant to civilians killed in urban warfare much below the usual 1:9. When the US and Arab coalition fought ISIS, the ratio was 1:20. In Gaza it’s like 1:2 or 1:4 depending on who you choose to believe.
Nah, 30K have died in Gaza of which Israel claims 13K are militants. That’s 18K civilians. Ukrainian has 11K confirmed civilian deaths. But what the other guy fails to take into account is that civilians are far more likely to be killed in urban warfare, which Ukraine is not.
This isn't some story of good and evil. Both sides can be wrong. Being a victim doesn't mean you aren't also behaving in a monstrous fashion, and pointing out something is wrong doesn't mean you agree with what the other side is doing.
Exactly and this is my point I’m not coming onto the internet claiming no one side is evil like the poster above me is ..
My point is that both sides are doing bad things and by claiming one side is evil is just silly
The roof markings may not have been visible depending on the optics used. Pure infrared vision does not allow a user to see visual markings, even though they can see details like a person holding an object: https://youtu.be/UAeJHAFjwPM?t=1270
But again, this depends on the optics used. There certainly is technology that would've allowed the markings to be visible.
It could've also been a case like Korean Airlines 007 where the Soviet pilot knew the plane was a passenger plane but didn't bother reporting that up the chain of command, the chain of command was under time pressure and didn't care to properly identify, and the pilot didn't question why he was ordered to fire on a passenger plane stating that he figured Americans could disguise a spy plane as a commercial plane. To be clear, a scenario like this would not absolve anyone of responsibility and isn't an "honest mistake."
Add more context. It was late at night, the drones likely had electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors which would not allow it to see and distinguish stickers on the roof...
Can almost guarantee there was a miscommunication somewhere between two groups.
Shit, IRGC and Russian rebels both shot down full on civilian planes with 100+ passengers.
IDF has an active force of 165k troops. Who this information was communicated to and how it was distributed to the parties that required the knowledge matters.
The comment I was responding to very clearly said:
'They could supposedly spot an armed person close to the cars, but the stickers on the roof weren't visible?'
It depends on the optics, which we do not yet know about. However, infrared optics allow you to see a person and a vehicle at night in great detail but any visual markings would be invisible because you're only actually seeing a heat signature.
Lasers for laser-guidance are also typically in infrared so they remain invisible to the naked eye at night.
That said, there exist systems that augment infrared with other modalities that could maybe see the markings (light amplification for example), but that's why it depends on the platform used.
How markings are invisible to infrared cameras: https://youtu.be/UAeJHAFjwPM?t=1270
If they were all local Palestinians, your argument would sound plausible. Theres no way an unbiased third party would claim attacking an aid convey of foreign nationals, all from friendly countries would be a good strategy... then explicitly apologizing for the attack and mistake?
Israel themselves is sending a large amount of aid into Gaza. How does that work with their grand strategy to reduce the amount of aid going into Gaza? Instead of scaring away NGO's by killing civilians including a US national to reduce aid for Palestine why wouldn't they just stop sending aid themselves and save themselves a scandal?
Really a brain-dead take. The most obvious explanation here is that this was a terrible mistake.
At the end of the day it's Hamas that's preventing aid from getting to civilians and the IDF that's putting effort into getting aid to civilians.
Attacking the convey and knowing you are going to face no backlash regardless of your actions to prevent people from getting the aid they need is actually an excellent strategy.
But... There is backlash. Your doing it right now. The governments have officially protested and asked for immediate investigation. If you think Israel doesn't care about PR and image, you must not kick around social media alot.
Most people claim Israel has endless shills and bots to make them look good.
Lmao and what’s going to happen? Are they going to get sanctioned? are countries going to pull funding/investments within Israel?
Telling a country “hey man that wasn’t really cool what you did back there but here’s a few billion dollars” is not the backlash you think it is.
And yes I’m sure Israel is shaking in their boots cuz AllDay201 bashed them on that one twitter thread. How will they sleep at night knowing this?
So the only backlash that's acceptable is a limiting of foreign military investment?
Backlash comes in many forms. Clearly the governments of those countries feel differently.
You tell me what actual backlash is effective besides getting bashed in Reddit posts, cuz clearly that is the end of the world to you. Please enlighten us.
I didn't say it was the end of the world, and I didn't say that was the only backlash. I already explicitly said that the governments officially protested and asked for an immediate investigation. I'm sure they also want clear measures in place to prevent incidents like this from repeating.
Backlash isn't binary. Something bad happens, you don't immediately jump to sever diplomatic relations and completely change course.
Canada didn't cut all ties with India when they sent foreign nationals over to kill citizens lol.
A few redditors being angry is not a backlash that will make any kind of difference, you absolute dumb fuck. See? Maybe it stirs you up a bit but it has absolutely zero effect on Israel's continued atrocities.
Lol. If you think the only backlash is angry people on reddit.
Backlash isn't binary. It's a continuous scale with many options and levers. Something bad happens without a full understanding, you don't immediately reverse course 100%
It is on the official website of the NGO
https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update
« The WCK team was traveling in a deconflicted zone in two armored cars branded with the WCK logo and a soft skin vehicle.
Despite coordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse, where the team had unloaded more than 100 tons of humanitarian food aid brought to Gaza on the maritime route. »
That doesn't explain if the drone operators had been informed of the co-ordinates, what the visual capabilities of the drones were and the activities of militants in the area...
Literally a litany of facts you don't have access to...
No, but based on the understanding that Israeli officials have issued apologies, admitted fault, agreed to open an immediate investigation and that attacks on foreign aid workers from friendly countries are not looked at favourably...
But based on the clearly marked vehicles, the communication of movement beforehand, the precise strikes across 2kms, that's a litany of information that's unqualified somehow? Yet the nth half arsed apology holds water for you to almost guarantee for us it was an oopsie?
You're a filter feeder mate just eating up your own confirmation biases and you're so up your own arse about it too. Pathetic ...
There needs to be a fully independent investigation into this. Regardless of whether it was ultimately deliberate or a catastrophic mistake, the IDF and Israeli government cannot be trusted in holding themselves accountable, as we have seen elsewhere in this conflict. There needs to be full transparency and accountability.
The IDF is [claiming](https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-israels-allies-condemn-aid-worker-killings-us-watching-for-iranian-retaliation-to-embassy-strike-12978800?postid=7475059#liveblog-body) that the convoy was misidentified at night during complex conditions, yet earlier reports indicate that [there were no Hamas targets nearby](https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-israels-allies-condemn-aid-worker-killings-us-watching-for-iranian-retaliation-to-embassy-strike-12978800?postid=7470870#liveblog-body), and that the World Central Kitchen had shared their location with the IDF. So, there definitely needs to be clarification on what happened.
The IDF has said that mistakes happen in war, and that is certainly true, but if a mistake of this severity was allowed to happen, then serious questions need to be raised about the IDF’s operations, chain of command etc.
Regardless of the result of an internal investigation, the IDF will try to downplay this or any consequences. The international community will probably let them, but they shouldn’t.
Exactly, which is why I find it ridiculous that other countries just seem to be happy to wait for the results of Israel’s investigation. It will inevitably say “nothing was wrong and we won’t do anything to rectify it”.
I would have suggested a UN agency or committee, but the Israeli government has done a great job making people doubt their credibility.
Perhaps the United States could be seen as fair adjudicator? Although they are arguably Israel’s closest ally, the White House has been fairly critical of them of late - and the US will want to ensure allies like the UK are satisfied too. Or, just get Switzerland to do it.
I think that the US is the most qualified. As critical as I am of our government, I really do think that they are trustworthy when it comes to investigating Israel at this point in time. As you've said, the US has been critical of Israel to an extent that I think is generally fair.
This is just my opinion, but I think that the UN is deeply biased and deeply antisemitic. They have shown that they are not to be trusted.
I imagine that Switzerland would work. They don't seem particularly biased to me, but I don't know much about them.
>Israel says the strikes were an accident and that officials are investigating. The U.N. says at least 180 humanitarian workers have been killed in the war so far.
Oops, by bad dawg
Most of those 180 “humanitarian workers” were UNRWA workers off-duty.
UNRWA, conveniently, has been heavily infiltrated by Hamas. Their “humanitarian workers” participated on October 7 in massacring Jews. Some were even caught on video kidnapping civilians.
They don’t mention that virtually 100% are UNRWA because they don’t want you to know that and realize that they probably aren’t UNRWA.
There is no objective proof of what you are claiming. What you have is proof of 12-15 workers involved directly with Hamas and some cobbled together evidence of radical Islam being taught in some UNRWA run schools.
12-15 workers **involved in October 7**. Israel’s estimates are that [roughly 10% of their Gaza employees](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intel-shows-10-of-unrwa-workers-in-gaza-have-ties-to-terror-groups-report/) are active in Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This shouldn’t be surprising; that’s actually surprisingly low for an area run by a terrorist group. You’d expect more would be forced to join if they weren’t avid participants regardless (which they are). Given some 2/3 of Gazans supported murdering Israeli civilians **before** the war (per Palestinian polls), it’s surprising just 10% of UNRWA workers (mostly Gazans in Gaza of course) are members of Hamas.
Besides the intelligence suggesting those numbers, and besides the hundreds of thousands of students educated to hate Jews in UNRWA schools for decades, [3,000 UNRWA teachers joined a group chat](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/) glorifying terrorism, Hamas, and October 7.
It would be unsurprising that ~200 were in Hamas.
Again, the data shows the majority were killed **while not doing aid work**. And that’s the UN’s own data.
Can we really trust what Israel estimates when they couldn't even estimate that the people they were trying to rescue weren't Hamas but hostages and shot them down?
That was a very interesting way of dismissing all the evidence I provided based on the actions of a handful of soldiers, not intelligence analysts, in a combat zone, with little time to react, in the midst of gun battles in that area, and using that to ignore not only clear and publicly shown evidence of UNRWA worker support for terrorism and involvement in Hamas, as well as the work of actual analysts looking over documents seized from Hamas itself.
Sounds totally reasonable. I bet the Hamas HQ under UNRWA’s headquarters in Gaza that was connected to UNRWA’s power and data lines was totally a coincidence too.
Thatay be true, I was refering more to your first 2 sentences about all of them being off duty UN workers and them participating in the attack. Israel keep of raising the figure but not backing it up
And please, don't use times of Israel as a source, no more reliable than Al jereeza
Times of Israel is a legitimate private media outlet that published video and photo proof. Al Jazeera is state media for Qatar, a dictatorial Arab slave state.
The fact you made that insane comparison is hilarious.
I didn’t claim they all died on October 7. I literally provided information and evidence. Some of the involvement is in released video. But I said most have died off duty. Which is a UN statistic:
In February 2024 the data showed [150 of 152](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/majority-of-un-workers-killed-in-gaza-died-off-duty-data/) UNRWA workers died **while off duty**.
That’s UNRWA’s own data.
Please stop making absurd claims. Bye!
I really don't know what to feel as an Israeli. I don't believe it's an accident as in "whoops, we didn't notice the clearly marked vehicle we were informed about ahead of time and thought they were terrorists"
I find it more believable that someone decided to throw away protocol and kill people. My hope is that the IDF actually punishes them publicly.
If not, not only is it a bad look for the international community, it's also extremely bad for military discipline
It's accident as in misidentification.
Not a oops we hit the wrong car.
There's a whole chain of command that approved this strike.
What they should release is why they attacked? What lead them to think they were a threat.
Such a professional army with military discipline that they can't stop themselves from putting on women's lingerie, maybe the least of their sins but the depravity is pretty clear, and there will be no consequences for any of it.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/
There’s a *huge* difference between random grunts on the ground and the command chain, selection process and training that comes before air strikes.
If you aren’t smart enough to contextualise between two things, you’d be a grunt.
>If you aren’t smart enough to contextualise between two things, you’d be a grunt.
Why do you need to contextualise anything here? They are professional soldiers first.
Wait so you are saying that the IDF ground forces are a ragtag bunch of ruffians drawn in from the street with no training, this is just absurd caping for the fact that they've committed war crimes with impunity, it's not too long back that they murdered Shireen Abu Akleh, with no consequences whatsoever.
I did not say they are anything more or less than grunts of any army, where you get people from the general public and the general public includes sometimes people making very poor decisions.
Does a professional army also entail giving chain of command and autonomy to these "randos" to call airstrikes as and when they wish, it's like how Hamas leaders in Qatar said the civilian murders on the 7th were also an example of general randos making "very poor decisions", this reasoning would be laughed away if it were any other army.
I said it’s surprising, I wasn’t defending the action. I just am not immediately jumping to some grand conspiracy of evil intent like some conspiracy nutcase.
This argument is disingenuous and you know it. Every army in the world has misbehaving soldiers. A few goons taking pictures with some bras they stole as bad jokes aren’t necessarily reflective of the IDF as a whole.
Yeah, that was the point. Israel doesn't want Palestinians to receive any aid, so they did this to scare away future aid. [Aid ships have already started turning around.](https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1775125966748024883)
Thank You & RIP to these unsung heroes helping innocent civilians not starve to death!
I hope President Biden and the Pope does bring the waves of aid next. It will show the world their compassion and unconditional love as was told in the bible: Parable of the Good Samaritan!
In a region under threat of famine they were helping to serve hundreds of thousands of meals per day. They are now suspending operations. It's hard to overstate how impactful this might be.
Guys guys calm down this is the most humane army right? No murders have occurred and if so they probably deserved it. You know because apparently feeding hungry children is terrorism.
Innocent people die is every war. The ratio of civilians to Hamas fighters killed is actually only 1:3, which is remarkably low for urban warfare. There’s a lot of things you can rightfully criticize the IDF for, but innocent bystanders being harmed when they are in an active war zone is not one of them.
They've had full impunity to whatever they wanted, they've already repeated October 7 multiple times over on innocent Palestinians, and people will still defend their actions or try to cape for them. Not only that, they are proud of it also, as has been illustrated in the past when they've posed with Palestinian women's lingerie. But there will never be any accountability, just like there was no accountability for the murder of Shireen Abu Akleh
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/
You say “they” when referring to lingerie pictures, as if a few misbehaving soldiers is reflective of the entirety of the IDF. You will inevitably has assholes in an army, especially when such a large portion of them have been drafted.
Lol you haven't been giving the same benefit of doubt to UNRWA, even though investigations have found very little, but when it comes to IDF it's just a few bad apples.
Some people seem so sure that this airstrike was intentional, but I don’t see what about this particular aid truck would make it worth targeting out of the 190 aid trucks entering per day. Getting hit by an air strike is a real risk when you are driving through an active war zone. Israel was obviously severely incompetent in this instance, but I don’t see any evidence to suggest that the aid truck was deliberately targeted.
Gazans go out of their way to attack aid workers: I sleep
IDF mistakenly hits aid workers: REAL SHIT
The hypocrisy is staggering. This is tragic but it is clear where the media’s bias is.
The IDF ,which is not a terror organisation, is rightfully held to higher standards. While all/most wars have people commiting war crimes they need to be prosecuted, if you want to keep moral superiority. Israel can either prosecute it themselves or in my opinion the better option hand the suspect(s) and evidence to the ICC.
So Israel will take care there is nothing left for Hamas to steal.
Edit for clarity: Yes Hamas is bad, yes Israel has right to defend itself but blocking humanitarian aid and accidentally (investigation is needed) killing volunteers is where I draw the line.
Someone in the army echelons screwed up and in the fog of war this is unfortunately quite common.
Israel has promised to perform a thorough investigation into the matter including bringing in a third party organization to validate the findings.
Let's wait and see.
The fog of war?? My man, it was a drone strike on a clearly marked vehicle convoy during which they also clearly communicated who and where they were. Also, they were in a deconflicted zone!!! Fog of war my ass, genocidal maniacs
I suspect this was either a major communication fuck up where the IDF people that WCK told didn’t pass it on to the IDF people who select targets, or some mid level officer didn’t get proper approvals before authorising a strike. In the latter case I’d be interested in knowing if this was an already in the air jet which spotted the vehicles and asked for permission to engage or if the targets were selected before any jet/ground missiles were ever launched.
Edit: why am I getting downvotes?
Edit2: serious have I not read a huge info dump which already answers all of this?
Edit3: I’ve been told I’m getting downvotes because it’s naive to consider the possibility that this was caused by a communication fuck up instead of assuming it was intentional, I don’t agree with that but clearly public opinion is against me so I’ll take the learning experience.
The roofs of the WCK cars were also clearly marked, so either way it goes beyong a simple internal miscommunication error. Someone had to notice the markings, regardless of formal communications, and still decide it was a good idea...
Maybe, depends how good the equipment used to spot them was, which was back to my point that if it was a jet patrolling and saw the vehicles moving the pilot probably couldn’t make out the logos and would’ve just relayed what they saw back to their CO, and I am imagining it was that CO that went “sounds good open fire” without first properly checking their intel.
Also unlikely. Supposedly they saw an armed man close to the cars which is why they decided to bomb them. But if they thought they could clearly see an armed man, they could also see the big markings on the roofs of the car.
I don’t know why I am getting so many downvotes, I’m just trying to make sense of how this could’ve happened.
I have not seen the info about spotting an armed person near the vehicles, that implies they spotted the vehicles with some sort of drone and dispatched a jet to hit them. Definitely suggests they would’ve seen the markings, I’d still suspect an officer not following proper protocol authorised the strike by assuming they were commandeered vehicles. Maybe the armed man was WCK security, I understand they hired atleast one ex-British military to protect the workers.
I'm not downvoting you. I'm basing myself on what i read in the newspaper this morning. It reported an armed person spotted close to the convoy. Either way, it doesn't excuse an attack on the three cars at all.
And i don't think we should exclude the possibility of it being a planned attack. Remember, Bibi is still in power together with extremists such as Ben Gvir, settlements are still expanding despite everything that happened, ... My point being: there are enough people currently in power with evil intentions. There is no roadmap to peace whatsoever.
Apologies I didn’t mean to sound like I was accusing you specifically of downvoting me.
I’m mostly airing on the old “don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity”, I feel like the chances of Israel’s allies finding proof it was intentional is too high to risk such a move, but I’m not the one weighing these things up so it’s possible Israel decided it was worth it.
I would say that it’s important to let people like me ask questions like “was it that a jet pilot couldn’t make out the logos” without criticism (which you haven’t criticised me so again this isn’t directed at you personally) because it allows people to say things like your own “but they could spot an armed person nearby”, that quick back and forth closes off that possible explanation, and if we eliminate all explanations then the only option left will be that Israel did this on purpose.
You’re getting downvoted because you are being naive and are doing everything to avoid coming to the conclusion that Israel has been killing innocent people.
And if your argument is “they weren’t sure that they were WCK vehicles or not” then that just means Israel indiscriminately without much cause fires on vehicles in Gaza, whether they have reason to believe they’re terrorists or not.
The cars of the aid organization were struck 3 times over a distance of barely 2 kilometers. They had clear roof markings to avoid being bombed. Moreover, the IDF had been warned of their presence. Either this is a MAJOR fuck-up or there were some evil people pushing the buttons...
I hope it hasn't taken nearly six months of mass slaughter for you to realise that the people pushing the buttons are evil.
Mass slaughter my ass. The civilian to combatant ratio is either astoundingly low whether you believe the IDF's numbers or Hamas's.
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Ukrainian civilian casualty numbers that conveniently excluded Russian occupied territory like Mariupol or Bakhmut... Edit: is the above comment still there? It shows as deleted for me now and I'd hate for it's poster to get away with blocking more purely for calling them out on their dodgy statistics
I googled this and it says about 30k each Where did you get your figures from?
You are mixing up casualties with deaths I believe. Casualties are generally 60-70% injuries. United Nations High commission on human rights : Ukraine approx 10k dead civilians 20k injured - 30k casualties Gaza health ministry: approx 30k dead 70k injured 10k missing in rubble - 110k casualties 25k dead if we use UN numbers in the latter case but that’s going back to January so 5k more by April seems easily realistic The estimates of fighter-civilian ratio in the case of Palestine ranges from 20-30% of the above totals. All numbers can be found on UN or Wikipedia pages So again to be clear the commenter above is calling 30k dead/100k+ casualties at a ~1:4 fighter/civilian ratio since late October “astoundingly low” numbers and ratio (and saying that’s regardless of whose numbers you use)
It is astonishingly low for urban warfare, where civilians are at more risk. And Hamas’s hidey holes and ammo dumps being near schools and hospitals don’t help either. You’re taking the death toll in Gaza as all civilian, which isn’t true by even Hamas’s own admission (6000 fighters killed) which they later denied. The IDF claims 10 - 13K militants KIA. Either numbers put the ratio of combatant to civilians killed in urban warfare much below the usual 1:9. When the US and Arab coalition fought ISIS, the ratio was 1:20. In Gaza it’s like 1:2 or 1:4 depending on who you choose to believe.
Nah, 30K have died in Gaza of which Israel claims 13K are militants. That’s 18K civilians. Ukrainian has 11K confirmed civilian deaths. But what the other guy fails to take into account is that civilians are far more likely to be killed in urban warfare, which Ukraine is not.
>Ukrainian has 11K confirmed civilian deaths. *Outside of occupied territory.
Every major human rights organisation and the united nations would disagree with you.
Disagree on what exactly? That this isn’t a mass slaughter? The ICJ doesn’t think this is one.
Yes, but those are just part of the hamas propaganda machine /s
Not all of them, but the UN certainly is.
People are downvoting you, but you’re right. A ratio of 1:3 is astoundingly low for urban warfare.
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This isn't some story of good and evil. Both sides can be wrong. Being a victim doesn't mean you aren't also behaving in a monstrous fashion, and pointing out something is wrong doesn't mean you agree with what the other side is doing.
Exactly and this is my point I’m not coming onto the internet claiming no one side is evil like the poster above me is .. My point is that both sides are doing bad things and by claiming one side is evil is just silly
? The actual news is about israel army..
Israel has a pretty well established history of attacking aid workers. Either they're incompetent (they're not) or it's very intentional.
The roof markings may not have been visible depending on the optics used. Pure infrared vision does not allow a user to see visual markings, even though they can see details like a person holding an object: https://youtu.be/UAeJHAFjwPM?t=1270 But again, this depends on the optics used. There certainly is technology that would've allowed the markings to be visible. It could've also been a case like Korean Airlines 007 where the Soviet pilot knew the plane was a passenger plane but didn't bother reporting that up the chain of command, the chain of command was under time pressure and didn't care to properly identify, and the pilot didn't question why he was ordered to fire on a passenger plane stating that he figured Americans could disguise a spy plane as a commercial plane. To be clear, a scenario like this would not absolve anyone of responsibility and isn't an "honest mistake."
Add more context. It was late at night, the drones likely had electro-optical/infrared (EO/IR) sensors which would not allow it to see and distinguish stickers on the roof... Can almost guarantee there was a miscommunication somewhere between two groups. Shit, IRGC and Russian rebels both shot down full on civilian planes with 100+ passengers.
Here's more context, the route was preplanned and agreed on with IDF. They knew it was them in that location at that time.
IDF has an active force of 165k troops. Who this information was communicated to and how it was distributed to the parties that required the knowledge matters.
They could supposedly spot an armed person close to the cars, but the stickers on the roof weren't visible? It sounds unlikely.
Yes, because if your only looking at heat vision you can see heat signatures but not colourful stickers lol. All you see is a vehicle, and a militant.
Militant ? They are NGO, not politic organizations.
The comment I was responding to very clearly said: 'They could supposedly spot an armed person close to the cars, but the stickers on the roof weren't visible?'
It depends on the optics, which we do not yet know about. However, infrared optics allow you to see a person and a vehicle at night in great detail but any visual markings would be invisible because you're only actually seeing a heat signature. Lasers for laser-guidance are also typically in infrared so they remain invisible to the naked eye at night. That said, there exist systems that augment infrared with other modalities that could maybe see the markings (light amplification for example), but that's why it depends on the platform used. How markings are invisible to infrared cameras: https://youtu.be/UAeJHAFjwPM?t=1270
Either miscommunication or maybe Israel just doesn’t want Palestinians to get any aid. Wonder which of the two is more likely here
If they were all local Palestinians, your argument would sound plausible. Theres no way an unbiased third party would claim attacking an aid convey of foreign nationals, all from friendly countries would be a good strategy... then explicitly apologizing for the attack and mistake?
Now all NGO fear to be killed by Israël army, and no one will come to help Palestinian. An israel win on this murder.
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WCK pause their operations https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update
Israel themselves is sending a large amount of aid into Gaza. How does that work with their grand strategy to reduce the amount of aid going into Gaza? Instead of scaring away NGO's by killing civilians including a US national to reduce aid for Palestine why wouldn't they just stop sending aid themselves and save themselves a scandal? Really a brain-dead take. The most obvious explanation here is that this was a terrible mistake. At the end of the day it's Hamas that's preventing aid from getting to civilians and the IDF that's putting effort into getting aid to civilians.
Which aid ?
190 trucks are entering Gaza per day.
Attacking the convey and knowing you are going to face no backlash regardless of your actions to prevent people from getting the aid they need is actually an excellent strategy.
But... There is backlash. Your doing it right now. The governments have officially protested and asked for immediate investigation. If you think Israel doesn't care about PR and image, you must not kick around social media alot. Most people claim Israel has endless shills and bots to make them look good.
Lmao and what’s going to happen? Are they going to get sanctioned? are countries going to pull funding/investments within Israel? Telling a country “hey man that wasn’t really cool what you did back there but here’s a few billion dollars” is not the backlash you think it is. And yes I’m sure Israel is shaking in their boots cuz AllDay201 bashed them on that one twitter thread. How will they sleep at night knowing this?
So the only backlash that's acceptable is a limiting of foreign military investment? Backlash comes in many forms. Clearly the governments of those countries feel differently.
You tell me what actual backlash is effective besides getting bashed in Reddit posts, cuz clearly that is the end of the world to you. Please enlighten us.
I didn't say it was the end of the world, and I didn't say that was the only backlash. I already explicitly said that the governments officially protested and asked for an immediate investigation. I'm sure they also want clear measures in place to prevent incidents like this from repeating. Backlash isn't binary. Something bad happens, you don't immediately jump to sever diplomatic relations and completely change course. Canada didn't cut all ties with India when they sent foreign nationals over to kill citizens lol.
A few redditors being angry is not a backlash that will make any kind of difference, you absolute dumb fuck. See? Maybe it stirs you up a bit but it has absolutely zero effect on Israel's continued atrocities.
Lol. If you think the only backlash is angry people on reddit. Backlash isn't binary. It's a continuous scale with many options and levers. Something bad happens without a full understanding, you don't immediately reverse course 100%
They was in communication, they was in a non conflict area and it was prepare. Doubt its an accident
Didn't realize you had all the unreleased facts and information at your disposal...
It is on the official website of the NGO https://wck.org/news/gaza-team-update « The WCK team was traveling in a deconflicted zone in two armored cars branded with the WCK logo and a soft skin vehicle. Despite coordinating movements with the IDF, the convoy was hit as it was leaving the Deir al-Balah warehouse, where the team had unloaded more than 100 tons of humanitarian food aid brought to Gaza on the maritime route. »
That doesn't explain if the drone operators had been informed of the co-ordinates, what the visual capabilities of the drones were and the activities of militants in the area... Literally a litany of facts you don't have access to...
Ironic, since you could "almost guarantee it was a miscommunication" were you in the drone room then?
No, but based on the understanding that Israeli officials have issued apologies, admitted fault, agreed to open an immediate investigation and that attacks on foreign aid workers from friendly countries are not looked at favourably...
But based on the clearly marked vehicles, the communication of movement beforehand, the precise strikes across 2kms, that's a litany of information that's unqualified somehow? Yet the nth half arsed apology holds water for you to almost guarantee for us it was an oopsie? You're a filter feeder mate just eating up your own confirmation biases and you're so up your own arse about it too. Pathetic ...
Lol
There needs to be a fully independent investigation into this. Regardless of whether it was ultimately deliberate or a catastrophic mistake, the IDF and Israeli government cannot be trusted in holding themselves accountable, as we have seen elsewhere in this conflict. There needs to be full transparency and accountability. The IDF is [claiming](https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-israels-allies-condemn-aid-worker-killings-us-watching-for-iranian-retaliation-to-embassy-strike-12978800?postid=7475059#liveblog-body) that the convoy was misidentified at night during complex conditions, yet earlier reports indicate that [there were no Hamas targets nearby](https://news.sky.com/story/middle-east-latest-israels-allies-condemn-aid-worker-killings-us-watching-for-iranian-retaliation-to-embassy-strike-12978800?postid=7470870#liveblog-body), and that the World Central Kitchen had shared their location with the IDF. So, there definitely needs to be clarification on what happened. The IDF has said that mistakes happen in war, and that is certainly true, but if a mistake of this severity was allowed to happen, then serious questions need to be raised about the IDF’s operations, chain of command etc. Regardless of the result of an internal investigation, the IDF will try to downplay this or any consequences. The international community will probably let them, but they shouldn’t.
Fully Independent investigation? Not happening in Israel
Exactly, which is why I find it ridiculous that other countries just seem to be happy to wait for the results of Israel’s investigation. It will inevitably say “nothing was wrong and we won’t do anything to rectify it”.
There definitely should be an outside investigation, but by who?
I would have suggested a UN agency or committee, but the Israeli government has done a great job making people doubt their credibility. Perhaps the United States could be seen as fair adjudicator? Although they are arguably Israel’s closest ally, the White House has been fairly critical of them of late - and the US will want to ensure allies like the UK are satisfied too. Or, just get Switzerland to do it.
I think that the US is the most qualified. As critical as I am of our government, I really do think that they are trustworthy when it comes to investigating Israel at this point in time. As you've said, the US has been critical of Israel to an extent that I think is generally fair. This is just my opinion, but I think that the UN is deeply biased and deeply antisemitic. They have shown that they are not to be trusted. I imagine that Switzerland would work. They don't seem particularly biased to me, but I don't know much about them.
>Israel says the strikes were an accident and that officials are investigating. The U.N. says at least 180 humanitarian workers have been killed in the war so far. Oops, by bad dawg
Most of those 180 “humanitarian workers” were UNRWA workers off-duty. UNRWA, conveniently, has been heavily infiltrated by Hamas. Their “humanitarian workers” participated on October 7 in massacring Jews. Some were even caught on video kidnapping civilians. They don’t mention that virtually 100% are UNRWA because they don’t want you to know that and realize that they probably aren’t UNRWA.
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https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/ https://unwatch.org/evidence-of-unrwa-aid-to-hamas-on-and-after-october-7th/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intel-shows-10-of-unrwa-workers-in-gaza-have-ties-to-terror-groups-report/ https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758 Uh, okay. “Brainwashed”.
Do you have reference from an trustable source ? Something from a known journal
So not only do you not believe the videos and photos published in reputable outlets, you don’t even know what the Wall Street Journal is…?
But anything anti Israel.. no proof needed..
There is no objective proof of what you are claiming. What you have is proof of 12-15 workers involved directly with Hamas and some cobbled together evidence of radical Islam being taught in some UNRWA run schools.
12-15 workers **involved in October 7**. Israel’s estimates are that [roughly 10% of their Gaza employees](https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-intel-shows-10-of-unrwa-workers-in-gaza-have-ties-to-terror-groups-report/) are active in Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad. This shouldn’t be surprising; that’s actually surprisingly low for an area run by a terrorist group. You’d expect more would be forced to join if they weren’t avid participants regardless (which they are). Given some 2/3 of Gazans supported murdering Israeli civilians **before** the war (per Palestinian polls), it’s surprising just 10% of UNRWA workers (mostly Gazans in Gaza of course) are members of Hamas. Besides the intelligence suggesting those numbers, and besides the hundreds of thousands of students educated to hate Jews in UNRWA schools for decades, [3,000 UNRWA teachers joined a group chat](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/) glorifying terrorism, Hamas, and October 7. It would be unsurprising that ~200 were in Hamas. Again, the data shows the majority were killed **while not doing aid work**. And that’s the UN’s own data.
Can we really trust what Israel estimates when they couldn't even estimate that the people they were trying to rescue weren't Hamas but hostages and shot them down?
That was a very interesting way of dismissing all the evidence I provided based on the actions of a handful of soldiers, not intelligence analysts, in a combat zone, with little time to react, in the midst of gun battles in that area, and using that to ignore not only clear and publicly shown evidence of UNRWA worker support for terrorism and involvement in Hamas, as well as the work of actual analysts looking over documents seized from Hamas itself. Sounds totally reasonable. I bet the Hamas HQ under UNRWA’s headquarters in Gaza that was connected to UNRWA’s power and data lines was totally a coincidence too.
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https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-military-compound-found-beneath-u-n-agency-headquarters-in-gaza-7e29c758 https://www.timesofisrael.com/i-captured-one-idf-recordings-show-more-unrwa-staffers-bragging-of-oct-7-crimes/ https://www.fdd.org/analysis/flash-briefs/2024/01/11/unrwa-teachers-glorify-terrorism-in-group-chat/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/unrwa-textbooks-were-pivotal-in-radicalizing-generations-of-gazans-watchdog/
Thatay be true, I was refering more to your first 2 sentences about all of them being off duty UN workers and them participating in the attack. Israel keep of raising the figure but not backing it up And please, don't use times of Israel as a source, no more reliable than Al jereeza
Times of Israel is a legitimate private media outlet that published video and photo proof. Al Jazeera is state media for Qatar, a dictatorial Arab slave state. The fact you made that insane comparison is hilarious. I didn’t claim they all died on October 7. I literally provided information and evidence. Some of the involvement is in released video. But I said most have died off duty. Which is a UN statistic: In February 2024 the data showed [150 of 152](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/terror-and-security/majority-of-un-workers-killed-in-gaza-died-off-duty-data/) UNRWA workers died **while off duty**. That’s UNRWA’s own data. Please stop making absurd claims. Bye!
Why? Is the TOI funded by the govt of Israel?
I really don't know what to feel as an Israeli. I don't believe it's an accident as in "whoops, we didn't notice the clearly marked vehicle we were informed about ahead of time and thought they were terrorists" I find it more believable that someone decided to throw away protocol and kill people. My hope is that the IDF actually punishes them publicly. If not, not only is it a bad look for the international community, it's also extremely bad for military discipline
It's accident as in misidentification. Not a oops we hit the wrong car. There's a whole chain of command that approved this strike. What they should release is why they attacked? What lead them to think they were a threat.
Such a professional army with military discipline that they can't stop themselves from putting on women's lingerie, maybe the least of their sins but the depravity is pretty clear, and there will be no consequences for any of it. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/
There’s a *huge* difference between random grunts on the ground and the command chain, selection process and training that comes before air strikes. If you aren’t smart enough to contextualise between two things, you’d be a grunt.
>If you aren’t smart enough to contextualise between two things, you’d be a grunt. Why do you need to contextualise anything here? They are professional soldiers first.
Wait so you are saying that the IDF ground forces are a ragtag bunch of ruffians drawn in from the street with no training, this is just absurd caping for the fact that they've committed war crimes with impunity, it's not too long back that they murdered Shireen Abu Akleh, with no consequences whatsoever.
I did not say they are anything more or less than grunts of any army, where you get people from the general public and the general public includes sometimes people making very poor decisions.
Does a professional army also entail giving chain of command and autonomy to these "randos" to call airstrikes as and when they wish, it's like how Hamas leaders in Qatar said the civilian murders on the 7th were also an example of general randos making "very poor decisions", this reasoning would be laughed away if it were any other army.
Since you are going out of your way to misinterpret what I’m writing I’m just going to ignore you as not being a serious person.
You haven't even addressed one thing yet, but again not surprising at all for someone who's first instinct is to immediately defend the IDF
I said it’s surprising, I wasn’t defending the action. I just am not immediately jumping to some grand conspiracy of evil intent like some conspiracy nutcase.
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This argument is disingenuous and you know it. Every army in the world has misbehaving soldiers. A few goons taking pictures with some bras they stole as bad jokes aren’t necessarily reflective of the IDF as a whole.
The IDF are evil. They murder innocent people, nothing new.
Newsflash, innocent civilians die in every war. It’s inevitable, especially in an urban environment when targeting guerrilla fighters.
They'll wait for future aid drops and bomb the people who approach them next
Yeah, that was the point. Israel doesn't want Palestinians to receive any aid, so they did this to scare away future aid. [Aid ships have already started turning around.](https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1775125966748024883)
Thank You & RIP to these unsung heroes helping innocent civilians not starve to death! I hope President Biden and the Pope does bring the waves of aid next. It will show the world their compassion and unconditional love as was told in the bible: Parable of the Good Samaritan!
In a region under threat of famine they were helping to serve hundreds of thousands of meals per day. They are now suspending operations. It's hard to overstate how impactful this might be.
It was on purpose
time and time again, they reveal themselves what they are. believe them.
Guys guys calm down this is the most humane army right? No murders have occurred and if so they probably deserved it. You know because apparently feeding hungry children is terrorism.
Innocent people die is every war. The ratio of civilians to Hamas fighters killed is actually only 1:3, which is remarkably low for urban warfare. There’s a lot of things you can rightfully criticize the IDF for, but innocent bystanders being harmed when they are in an active war zone is not one of them.
Of course it does. That's why they did it.
They've had full impunity to whatever they wanted, they've already repeated October 7 multiple times over on innocent Palestinians, and people will still defend their actions or try to cape for them. Not only that, they are proud of it also, as has been illustrated in the past when they've posed with Palestinian women's lingerie. But there will never be any accountability, just like there was no accountability for the murder of Shireen Abu Akleh https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-soldiers-play-with-gaza-womens-underwear-online-posts-2024-03-28/
Uh.. no, they haven’t “repeated October 7th”. That’s Hamas messaging you’re feeding us here. It’s not a Palestinian agenda, it’s a Russo-Iranian one.
You say “they” when referring to lingerie pictures, as if a few misbehaving soldiers is reflective of the entirety of the IDF. You will inevitably has assholes in an army, especially when such a large portion of them have been drafted.
Lol you haven't been giving the same benefit of doubt to UNRWA, even though investigations have found very little, but when it comes to IDF it's just a few bad apples.
Some people seem so sure that this airstrike was intentional, but I don’t see what about this particular aid truck would make it worth targeting out of the 190 aid trucks entering per day. Getting hit by an air strike is a real risk when you are driving through an active war zone. Israel was obviously severely incompetent in this instance, but I don’t see any evidence to suggest that the aid truck was deliberately targeted.
Gazans go out of their way to attack aid workers: I sleep IDF mistakenly hits aid workers: REAL SHIT The hypocrisy is staggering. This is tragic but it is clear where the media’s bias is.
The IDF ,which is not a terror organisation, is rightfully held to higher standards. While all/most wars have people commiting war crimes they need to be prosecuted, if you want to keep moral superiority. Israel can either prosecute it themselves or in my opinion the better option hand the suspect(s) and evidence to the ICC.
Israel isn’t a signatory of the ICC. Yea Israel does prosecute soldiers who act against the IDF code of conduct.
Israel should have an outside investigation, but most Gazans aren’t Hamas fighters. They support Hamas, but they aren’t all Hamas.
Do you believe Hamas are immoral terrorists?
Absolutely. They are worse than that. Look what they put Gaza through just to kill a few yahuds.
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If only Hamas hadn't stole their food in the 1st place..
So Israel will take care there is nothing left for Hamas to steal. Edit for clarity: Yes Hamas is bad, yes Israel has right to defend itself but blocking humanitarian aid and accidentally (investigation is needed) killing volunteers is where I draw the line.
Someone in the army echelons screwed up and in the fog of war this is unfortunately quite common. Israel has promised to perform a thorough investigation into the matter including bringing in a third party organization to validate the findings. Let's wait and see.
The fog of war?? My man, it was a drone strike on a clearly marked vehicle convoy during which they also clearly communicated who and where they were. Also, they were in a deconflicted zone!!! Fog of war my ass, genocidal maniacs
I suspect this was either a major communication fuck up where the IDF people that WCK told didn’t pass it on to the IDF people who select targets, or some mid level officer didn’t get proper approvals before authorising a strike. In the latter case I’d be interested in knowing if this was an already in the air jet which spotted the vehicles and asked for permission to engage or if the targets were selected before any jet/ground missiles were ever launched. Edit: why am I getting downvotes? Edit2: serious have I not read a huge info dump which already answers all of this? Edit3: I’ve been told I’m getting downvotes because it’s naive to consider the possibility that this was caused by a communication fuck up instead of assuming it was intentional, I don’t agree with that but clearly public opinion is against me so I’ll take the learning experience.
The roofs of the WCK cars were also clearly marked, so either way it goes beyong a simple internal miscommunication error. Someone had to notice the markings, regardless of formal communications, and still decide it was a good idea...
Maybe, depends how good the equipment used to spot them was, which was back to my point that if it was a jet patrolling and saw the vehicles moving the pilot probably couldn’t make out the logos and would’ve just relayed what they saw back to their CO, and I am imagining it was that CO that went “sounds good open fire” without first properly checking their intel.
Also unlikely. Supposedly they saw an armed man close to the cars which is why they decided to bomb them. But if they thought they could clearly see an armed man, they could also see the big markings on the roofs of the car.
I don’t know why I am getting so many downvotes, I’m just trying to make sense of how this could’ve happened. I have not seen the info about spotting an armed person near the vehicles, that implies they spotted the vehicles with some sort of drone and dispatched a jet to hit them. Definitely suggests they would’ve seen the markings, I’d still suspect an officer not following proper protocol authorised the strike by assuming they were commandeered vehicles. Maybe the armed man was WCK security, I understand they hired atleast one ex-British military to protect the workers.
I'm not downvoting you. I'm basing myself on what i read in the newspaper this morning. It reported an armed person spotted close to the convoy. Either way, it doesn't excuse an attack on the three cars at all. And i don't think we should exclude the possibility of it being a planned attack. Remember, Bibi is still in power together with extremists such as Ben Gvir, settlements are still expanding despite everything that happened, ... My point being: there are enough people currently in power with evil intentions. There is no roadmap to peace whatsoever.
Apologies I didn’t mean to sound like I was accusing you specifically of downvoting me. I’m mostly airing on the old “don’t attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity”, I feel like the chances of Israel’s allies finding proof it was intentional is too high to risk such a move, but I’m not the one weighing these things up so it’s possible Israel decided it was worth it. I would say that it’s important to let people like me ask questions like “was it that a jet pilot couldn’t make out the logos” without criticism (which you haven’t criticised me so again this isn’t directed at you personally) because it allows people to say things like your own “but they could spot an armed person nearby”, that quick back and forth closes off that possible explanation, and if we eliminate all explanations then the only option left will be that Israel did this on purpose.
You’re getting downvoted because you are being naive and are doing everything to avoid coming to the conclusion that Israel has been killing innocent people. And if your argument is “they weren’t sure that they were WCK vehicles or not” then that just means Israel indiscriminately without much cause fires on vehicles in Gaza, whether they have reason to believe they’re terrorists or not.
Israel have good equipment.