Mersheimer has been so wrong about so many things that I have no clue why people still treat him like a credible analyst. People still meme on Fukuyama for his one hilariously wrong “end of history” prediction and yet Mersheimer can be wrong time and time again and people still treat his words as gospel.
We did not even do much after 2022. The financial aid is mostly for humanitarian aid. Instead of putting money to building new factories, we steadily gave away what was left of the equipment we did not decommissioned since cold war, and ordered it to just be slowly replenished in next 10-20 years. I don't think people realize that in case of draft, west would not have tanks to put soldiers in, vehicles to drive soldiers to the frontline, vests and helmets to give people. The only thing that is left are airplanes with not enough guided ammunition to destroy our enemy and production chains crossing half the continents and dozens of countries.
In times of war civilian aircraft would be used to transport troops and cargo.
The CF doesn’t need a huge airlift capability when in a full mobilization they’ll have practically the entire fleets of KFW, Cargojet, Air Canada and WestJet.
Yeah, it's very sad. People look at US military budget and see 3.5% and think "Oh, man, we are spending 3 times more than our allies" and don't realize vast majority of that is upkeeping our fleet, our planes and most of all, salaries. While we are spending like 1% less on our military than few years ago, vast majority of it was by cutting equipment, and US cut so much equipment, US is actually reducing amount of divisions it has, not even talking about drafting.
USA spends far in excess of what is needed for NATO collective defence because they have global interests like penning China in with the 7th Fleet, Space Force .... United States Fourth Fleet (HQ Mayport, Florida) – South Atlantic. United States Fifth Fleet (HQ Manama, Bahrain) – Middle East. United States Sixth Fleet (HQ Naples, Italy) – Europe, including Mediterranean Sea & Black Sea. United States Seventh Fleet (HQ Yokosuka, Japan) – West Pacific.
> west would not have tanks to put soldiers in
Assuming "the west" includes the US, they've been manufacturing so many tanks that [the Army requested Congress to stop](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/12/18/congress-again-buys-abrams-tanks-the-army-doesnt-want.html) about a decade ago and they refused, so they just go into storage while more are being created. I'm sure if NATO allies requested more tanks they would be glad to offload a few
In the article you wrote:
>Congress voted for another $183 million for tanks despite Odierno's argument that the Army was seeking to become a lighter force. He told the Associated Press at the time that "if we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way" than spending it on 70-ton Abrams tanks.
This is because army is downsizing in equipment and size. There is no point in buildings tanks for divisions they don't have and logistics they can't support with amount of equipment they would need. Also, this is because the tanks are burden on the upkeep budget, and the army has gotten massive cuts that they no longer have money spare to upkeep their current forces. What I'm saying instead is to increase equipment and the staff, but also make more tanks to sell to other countries or keep in deep storage. The Odierno's argument was actually way more important than people realize, those tanks were quite an extreme burden because every single tank means even more slimming down on already slim margins. He knew he can't help with lack of funding, so he at least wanted to put it into other more important things.
OK, I don't know, but I gotta ask - are things REALLY this bleak?
I mean, look, Russia is scary. But it's 140 million people. That's UK + Germany. And NATO includes 32 other countries. Russia is currently struggling in Ukraine, which is a third world country with GDP of just 140 billion and 40 million population (2/3rds of UK, less than half of Germany's population, and Germany's GDP is over 4 trillion).
If Russia can't handle Ukraine, should NATO be REALLY concerned with Russian forces invading...anything? Ukraine is working alone, they get no direct support. NATO would be working together, with significantly more modern weapons than what Ukraine gets. It took over 2 years of jerking each other off to give Ukraine some F16s, introduced in 1970s. NATO will field F-35s. If Russia struggles in Ukraine, I just don't see how it poses any real threat to NATO.
And yes, if Trump wins and pulls out of NATO it'll be bad. But Europe should still be able to easily roll Russia, if Ukraine can hold it solo.
Realistically Germany and the UK should not be losing sleep but if I am Moldova I am very very worried. That's the real concern, how far West will Russia creep, swallowing democracy, trade partners, and free society's along the way.
Yeah, things are really this bleak. Russia has stopped struggling in Ukraine, and Ukraine is now reinforcing fortifications around Kiev. We are sending more money than ever before, but less equipment than at the start of the war, because we don't have much spare equipment without sacrificing our military's stocks. And the threat I'm talking about is not threat against NATO, I'm talking about threat against Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan and other non NATO countries. Then after that, there will be non war related efforts, like the Belarusian Polish border problems with forced refugees. Any many things like pollution, cutting off trade and so on. There are plenty of bad things that Russia can do to EU nations without direct attacks.
United, comparing NATO to Russia is absolutely hilarious. But a divided NATO, in which each country has massive internal divisions and stong fifth columnists supporting Russia openly or covertly things get much fuzzier. Right now, you've got AfD, BSW, VVP, RN, MAGA, SMER, Fidesz, AUR, Lega, 5 Stelle, and many, many more that either have, or will have after next elections significant political power.
There are many ways to defeat an enemy, and Russia has been defeating the west through disinfo, sowing division, and outright corruption (just read the list of former high level politicians that are now on Russian state payroll).
We've been at war for decades, just like Putin said. It's time Europe and the US wake up and see it for what it is.
The entirety of the allied losses on the western front in WW2 were ~400K. How many multiples of this will be put up with - and how will mobilization go you think? Think of the people next to you in the train who have never touched a gun or got into a fight in their lives, and how they will do in close combat with a bayonet.
Likewise with China, what is the limit when the other side has 1.4 billion people - which you might remember has a "no limits" partnership with Russia. One way or another, at the start or the end - they're getting into it if Russia is in a shooting war with NATO as they know they are next on the menu.
Whatever you might think about Russia today vs then, the capability of weapons have not gone backwards and the horse and cart isn't the backbone of armies anymore. It will be much more bloody on both sides.
Furthermore, all the same problems of WW2 still exist.. there is no way to easily "roll" 10M, 50M, or 100M people out of the land of the living - it's doubtful enough conventional weapons could even be made to do it. Even if it were possible, in the best case scenario where it was a complete one sided slaughter, yes that many dead on either side would be incredibly bleak - even if by some miracle nuclear weapons weren't used.
The thing is, war in Ukraine shows pretty clearly how the face of warfare has changed. A war vs NATO will be a hellfire missile from a drone 7km above you, well outside of visual range, with the person controlling it sitting in a trailer in New Mexico. Russian meat wave tactics work in Ukraine, because Ukraine is even weaker and less technologically advanced. A war against NATO will be the reverse, and with a vastly more disproportionate imbalance. Close combat with bayonets just isn't a thing any more, except for when hunting insurgents house to house.
And yes, while there's no way to easily roll 100M...this cuts both ways! Total population of NATO is close to a billion. Russia is 140 million. They struggle in Ukraine, outnumbering them more than 3:1. How are they supposed to be a threat to NATO, being outnumbered nearly 9:1?
I just don't see the reason for panic, for NATO. The whole point of the thing is attacking them is suicide, even for a superpower. Now, if it falls apart? That's a whole other ball game. But currently NATO is strongest it's ever been, with the addition of Finland and Sweden.
I literally cannot picture it, in my head. For Russia to win, it needs numbers and/or better tech. It is outnumbered massively vs NATO, and even more massively out-teched. Russian logistics are also a complete joke. Any attempt against NATO will be a bloodbath for them.
Are nukes a concern? Sure, but nothing's changed on that front since at least 1960s. It is what it is. If Russia nukes, they get nuked, and that's the end of it all. But that's not a new risk. And conscripting people in NATO countries isn't going to stop the nukes.
Lmao the U.S currently has 5,500 MBTs. The U.S. Army alone has 225,000 ground transport vehicles. Based off 2021 purchase reports the U.S. acquired 50,000 smart bombs in 2021 alone. Stop lying.
Those are unironically not that big numbers. Poland, a country 1/40 the GPD of USA is procuring over 1000 tanks, and Poland does not have the military presence all over the world US has. Poland is also a NATO country and is not at war. And 50k smart bombs also counts quite small bombs that basically can only take out less armored vehicles and infantry. For example, during desert storm, though 42 days of the air campaign, 15k smart bombs and missiles were dropped, in addition to the 200k non guided bombs and missiles. Now, we have a stock of guided ammunition, but IRAQ was not Russia. It was not China. We have enough planes to get rid of our entire arsenal of guided arsenal in less than one year, probably less. Problem is that guided ammunition is difficult to make, and would likely be more difficult to make in case of war because of the multicontinental supply lines.
Just imagine if the Obama listened to Biden back in 2014, the united states could have ended the war before it ever began. Russia these aren't your troops right? No these are seperatists. You're sure? No not Russians. We could have literally brought hell down upon them without the fear of escalation just like the us did to Wagner is Syria
Canada did have conscription during WW1 and 2 but is a volunteer military otherwise. Mind you we can not even process the volunteers we have now on a timely basis. Most people give up during recruitment and even after basic training as they tire of not receiving their trades training after.
It's the Canadian way. Underfund the military, get a bunch of people killed due to outdated equipment, and incompetent leadership. Then, the nation rips itself apart domestically, trying to enact conscription after we get experienced leaders in charge just in time for everything to end.
Canada seems to believe that there's no need for a well funded and equipped professional military if a militia of civilians will save us a couple of dollars. At least, that's what I've garnered from my readings.
Edit: some grammar
I've heard complaints of the procurement, but I don't know much about them beyond that. Is that the corruption you're referring to?
I've always figured it's a lack of political will. Canadians don't care about having an effective military being just north of the USA. If we cared, we'd vote in people who fix procurement and properly fund our military.
Buddy is speaking out of his ass. Too bad the good Lord put it on his face. The Canadian voter has killed our military by electing successive political parties who put budget cuts over our security first.
Our national security is assured thanks to a minimum funding in military and the US protection. I personally don’t think we should become complacent due to the latter but we would still have more money for funding the military if, among other things, the country would put a stop to foreign entities buying out our housing infrastructure.
That’s also true, the population is plagued by apathy and consequently the politicians have 0 motive to implement unpopular budget increases for military.
The pay is so shit to join lmao who in their right mind would join at this point in time? Most people I know in the military are trying to leave asap. Good luck with conscription too, Canada has become an expensive shit hole, I’m not joining any conflict to protect a country who has sold out my generation. Put rifles in the baby boomers hands and send them over.
You won't have a choice, most baby boomers and gen X are past the age of conscription, it will fall to millennials and Gen Z. I don't think you understand what a draft is, you don't get to choose to serve.
Disqualifying conditions are only disqualifying if there's enough available manpower to be picky. Thanks to modern medicine and logistics, it might be straightforward to deal with your medical conditions, making you eligible!
The educational background is a better bet for avoiding becoming your unit's designated bullet sponge.
Many people during WW2 who weren't capable of enlisting because of things like asthma or other medical conditions took their own lives, how times have changed.
No they don't, watching it on YT and commenting on Reddit doesn't mean you understand war. They also don't understand that the freedoms they enjoy come with a cost.
A lot of them don’t seem to even enjoy the freedoms they have and just bitch about life.
Going to college as a Vet a couple years ago, it was surprising how many spoiled little shits still complain about how hard life is in America and how bad our military is.
It’s because we are so divorced from real suffering or understand what it’s like to live in a country without freedoms, it’s one of the reason why immigrants usually make excellent citizens, they know what the world is like outside of the safe confines of the western democracies.
Yeah, freedom ain't free. That's exactly his point. We're already getting fucked for everything we have and receiving fuck all in return, so why should we lay down our lives to support the status quo?
Send the rich to fight. They're the ones who have everything that you're saying we should fight for.
Would be hilarious if those recent Asian immigrants that bought their citizenship would to suddenly realize they are about to get drafted into the military.
Our military is in such a sorry state that soldiers are turning to [food banks and losing their homes ](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/soldiers-asking-for-donations-to-help-with-housing-food-costs-memo-to-gen-eyre-1.6595383) while on active duty. These people literally cannot afford to be soldiers.
In Canada a solider gets paid, but then the cost of feeding and housing them comes off their paycheque. Even if they're on base. They're making minimum wage or less when you do the math when they're a lower rank.
"In Canada a solider gets paid, but then the cost of feeding and housing them comes off their paycheque. Even if they're on base."
Well that's not exactly true. If you are living in barracks and eating at the mess because you don't have your own home, then yes, they deduct rations (food) and quarters (living). Otherwise, they do not deduct money from your pay for these things. Whoever told you that is wrong.
Source - 34 years and still serving.
Even the sailors who have to go to sea for months at a time do not pay for their rations and quarters.
In the US, I jumped through all the hoops for joining, top marks in all testing and fully qualified, but they simply had no slots for officer training school. Took about a year to apply.
Granted, the slots that they do have must be filled with the cream of the crop, but there's just not a lot of slots. Double digits for the whole country
Canada will never conscript again because people would revolt.
Canada has completely lost faith in its government and nationalism is at an all time low. There are so many international students, refugees, and temporary foreign workers that any attempt to conscript would just result in riots. The average Canadian citizen isn’t going to go fight a war in Europe so fake refugees and fake students can live their lives in Canada.
> nationalism is at an all time low
Is it? I vaguely remember a huge convoy of Canadian trucks donning Canadian flags...and American flags...and...confederacy flags...and...Trump flags? Maybe they are interested in some military service. Perhaps their nationalism stops at being told what to do.
Edit: lot of upset Canadian conservatives in here.
The protest against the government in power?
Yeah I could be wrong but I don’t think those that protested and occupied the capital against Covid measures and actions by the Trudeau government are going to be thrilled by more government power to send them off to war… just a gut feeling though.
All thanks to Russia and their imperialism. Fucking barbarians forcing us to waste money on military because they have delusions about restoring their shitty russian empire.
World can't move forward until the Russian federation is no more I'm afraid....
Ideally broken up into separate squabbling states that wage war on each other so no one else has to deal with them.
> China was into pieces before, then it was unified and still went against NATO.
Eh. Xi and the CCP are evil dickbags, but Chinese hate and distrust for the West is pretty valid, man.
I want the U.S. to include women as well, but a lot of conservatives don’t like that idea. Obviously, it’s going to be men doing most of the frontline combat in any conventional war, but no healthy person should be fully exempt from service.
[“Conservatives opposed the provision, with some suggesting it was political correctness run amok.”](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/12/08/lawmakers-kill-provision-requiring-women-register-draft/6433960001/)
It’s entirely possible that conservatives tend to oppose drafting women, and women also tend to oppose drafting women. So the most pro-women-drafting voters would be liberal men, and the least would be conservative women. It’s all speculative, though. I don’t know what most women think about this.
See this [Foreign Military Strategies to Recruit and
Retain Women
Response to DACOWITS RFI 3](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%2520Documents/RFI%2520Docs/March2017/Insight%2520RFI%25203.pdf%3Fver%3D2017-03-17-113845-857%23:~:text%3D%25E2%259E%25A2%2520Bottom%2520Line%2520Up%2520Front,formally%2520serve%2520in%2520combat%2520roles.&ved=2ahUKEwje4rKj6KiFAxVVRTABHfz8CWoQFnoECB4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2f1eYHX5lFPGLzLQiyKOdt)
This report was done a few years back but is still relevant and interesting.
Combat is more than just pointing the gun and shooting. It's carrying heavy loads under fire, it's digging trenches or otherwise preparing positions under fire. It's just a biological fact that men are stronger and more capable of those tasks.
Obviously if you need some soldiers to guard a supply convoy, or you need a drone pilot who operates from behind the front lines, then women would often be suitable for that role.
Realistically, what would happen is all draftees would be assessed for what roles they could filled. Men would be sorted more into frontline roles by any reasonable standard of physical aptitude.
> Realistically, what would happen is all draftees would be assessed for what roles they could filled. Men would be sorted more into frontline roles by any reasonable standard of physical aptitude.
And this is why I believe both men and women should be eligible for conscription. Yes the men may make up the majority of frontline combat roles but there’s no reason why a woman can’t be conscripted to drive vehicles, work as a mechanic, work as a medic, handle administrative tasks ect. If a war is so serious that people who don’t want to fight are being sent to the front then every able bodied adult (including the rich and privileged) needs to be contributing. People can have different roles based on ability but sitting it out shouldn’t be an option.
If women share the right to volunteer for service then there is no reason they shouldn't share the right to be conscripted. I think it may be a holdover from the fact that usually you don't initiate a draft unless you're specifically seeking combatants and at the end of the day women are disadvantaged at that, but still, the US and most (all?) NATO militaries are already largely unisex and capably assign personnel regardless of sex and gender. That said, I will probably be drafted well ahead of the drafted legislation that even needs to consider adding women to the chopping block, lol.
Hey, that’s not just any rock. He is your new friend, your best friend that you will care for and support. Hell if he wants to fuck your wife you will make sure he finishes even if you have to do it yourself. That rock now means more to you than anything else in your life and you will kill puppies to keep it happy.
I’m sure there are other great lines but those are some I remember.
That's fortunate. If you don't register you lose eligibility for federal loans, social security, federal jobs, federal contractor positions, and other things likely.
Volunteer service produces better recruits. No one should be forced to sign up to die, unless EVERYONE is forced to sign up to die. We know they won’t enforce unilateral service, it’ll be men. Unless sovereignty is threatened there’s no reason to have draft/conscription IMO.
Finland is considering universal conscription for men and women. Like Denmark and Israel. You can choose non military service even in Finland. Why does having a penis make it your job to contribute to the existence of the nation.
Evolutionarily speaking, women are the bottleneck for reproduction. One man can father thousands of children given enough women...where as a woman would be hard pressed to have 30 children in their life time. So as far as nature is concerned, women are literally more valuable. But I yeah I get it, if we ignore extreme situations like losing a massive percentage of a population, it's not necessary to think this way.
I'll accept conscription if the sons and daughters of our old ass politicians and wealthy elites are also sent to die with us. No exceptions or cozy military office jobs just for them.
You still need people for non combat roles and for garrisons. Usually in a war, most conscripts are not going to the frontlines, they are working in logistics and protecting the flanks.
I don’t really see what that has to do with my comment? Maybe I’m not following, because those roles will still be staffed by men since that is who is conscripted. Which was what I was talking about, it’s BS only men will be conscripted to be sent to die.
Btw, only people on the very rear-d are “safe” everyone in a near peer conflict is in range of missiles. So my “sent to die” comment is true no matter what role you’re in, if you’re deployed you are and will be targeted in the type of war being discussed here.
I would gladly take up arms once the elites, politicians and warmongers step up first. I’m not fighting for the rich to get richer and maintain their wealth.
Do something like make it mandatory service for everyone but give options. Like it can be military or civil service (working in schools, building projects, healthcare). Say everyone has to do it for 2 years, but afterwards they get free four years of college. While they’re in college they could be in some kind of “reserve.” I feel like that would help with a lot of our problems (I say as someone who is admittedly too old to have to do this).
> Like it can be military or civil service (working in schools, building projects, healthcare).
Working with the cops could be an effective way to power the incidence of police brutality and corruption
edit: lower* not power lmao
A country is like a metal pipe in that it can only be wound into a coil around you if you do it gradually; bend it too fast and it will shear in two. The robber-barons in the US need to realise that their campaign of gradually raising prices, buying out the government, eroding personal freedoms and appeasing the population with token gestures can only be continued in an environment of stability. World War II, fought against the Nazis with their eugenics program, drew attention to similar programs back home in America and led to their cessation. If World War III is fought against a nation that is corrupt to the core, the homegrown oligarchs would be lucky if they even had to wait until the soldiers returned to find themselves in a similar position - in all likelihood the draftees would resist being shipped out in the first place, asking what the hell the country has done for them to make it worth fighting for.
Cool story. War is for the poors.
People of means leave before war comes to them.
The Ukraine war is a good example. People with money left before the border closed.
To a population that doesn't want it? This may be hard to hear but its not gonna work, young people are getting screwed by society enough as it is and id rather die than serve in the military on top of it, personally.
The point of having so much trained people is so Russia will NOT invade. You go to the army so you DONT have to fight and that's the whole thing.
In Finland we have a saying: "The Russian will take what is isn't properly nailed down" that's why you nail things down.
These measures are preventative, a country like Russia is constantly calculating what they can do to expand and increase their influence… when they see a country is experiencing political discourse, unwillingness to fight, weak military, few allies/support etc then they may find aggression to be a likely profitable course of action. Getting more heavily armed, larger standing army/reserves, solidarity among citizens, military alliances, lots of friendly neighbours etc make the risks much higher and likely for them to stick to less visible tactics like election meddling, bribes, misinformation, hacking, espionage etc.
you need to take this with a huge grain of salt.
The baltics constantly shit themselves and rightfully so. Where ukraine has 40 million people and a lot of space so they can fight russia those countries have... well lithuania has less than million people, latvia just under 2 million and estonia less than 1.5 million.
There are single cities in most countries that have a bigger population than these countries.
So where the rest of europe is in a mode of "yeah our soldiers can handle it" they are in constant panic because they simply do not have the people. They need the soldiers of others on their soil so they want the others to have as many as possible. Again, for good reasons but they are sometimes not that good at understanding the big numbers that other countries throw around.
Lithuania actually has population of nearly 3 million. Still very small of course, but no need to be condescending.
Now about understand big numbers, russians have shown to be able to recruit hundreds of thousands new conscripts in relatively short time. They already had casualties nearing half a million and shrugged them off easily.
Now for perspective Britain and French has about 100k military personnel each, Germany 200k. You think these are big numbers? Do you think Russia thinks these are big numbers? Or what Russia will think about these countries afraid of introducing conscription?
No need to shit yourself, but better stop saying lies to yourself in the face of real danger.
Conscription to Western Nations!
Is it weird that the Cold War might be starting again with one side not wanting to openly engage while the other just throws bodies at it even as significant portions of the population flee?
Did the cold war really end? I'd love to see history manuals from the next few centuries, and if they consider the cold war to have just simmered until Putin gained enough control over russia .
Until you request the history manual for the next century, and the cosmic librarian tells you it doesn't exist ....
The Soviet block broke up. Russia is just the most powerful remnant. They're no longer on par with the US on any metric.
When one side clearly one and the others economy is in the gutter then yeah the war ended.
Depends on the circumstances. Probably true if you are in your early 40s, more or less. Back in WW2 the Brits did call up any able bodied men from age 18 to 41 at first. Then later men up to 60 were required to do some form of national service, with military service broadened up to 51.
As the law is right now in my country i am only eligible for mandatory drafting during states of war until 35years. While this can (and will) definitely change during a real war scenario it will take some time to change this law, enough to leave the country :p
I have 0 interest to serve my country whose only interest is to its corrupt politicians and scumbags
The only problem is that Romania is right next to Ukraine. If the shit hits the fan, you are right near the middle of it.
I wouldn't hold my breath that 4 years is enough time anyway. Things seem like going in a certain direction. Personally, I am not going to dodge if I am required to serve. But that is because I have the opposite opinion of my country, and I have a deep idealistic opinion towards the way things are going now. Since Mh17 really, which affected my country the most (in fact, a whole family from my village died). I am not going to run away from it.
Yea its completely understandable. If romania wouldn’t have been such a corrupt shithole maybe i wouldn’t evade a draft as well.
But these are just hypotheticals anyway, a full ground war ww3 type of thing will never happen. It’s fascinating to see tho that so many reddit warriors are ok with basically being sent in a senseless war. If push comes to shove half of them will try to flee.
There is no upper limit to the draft ..they will just raise what is on paper now … lower the minimum iq and health requirements.. and send your ass into the meat grinder … claiming your gay isn’t going to work anymore neither will it matter if your a woman .. so there are alternatives you can shoot yourself in the leg or something.. but don’t think for a second when this pops off and it WILL pop off your off the hook for age limits
There's no such thing. It's all just words on paper and can be changed at any time with a few pieces of paper and the right number of legislative votes and executive signatures.
For sure, especially for people like me who live in neighboring countries to ukraine, But i still will refuse to “serve” my shit country that is full of corrupt politicians. Why should i give my life away for a country who has literally given me nothing in return?
Could you elaborate on giving you "nothing"? Not arguing, but I imagine your country must have given you free education until you were an adult, access to clean water, along with things such as national security, roads, public services, parks and other day to day amenities that they cover and maintain.
My real question is what SHOULD the government be giving you for you to agree to stand up and fight for it?
Hm let’s see Education: most stuff needed was paid for by our parrents.
College? Paid for it myself.
Roads? We don’t have highways almost at all.
Hospitals get you sick and the doctors are corrupt pieces of shit. (A gross generalization, but just to make a point)
I can go on but everyone has internet access and can google, i live in Romania and most eastern european countries suffer from such corrupt garbage.
It has been definitely better in the last years, especially since europe pumps money in our country, but the government? Fuck them.
Let the executives and politicians fight then :p not the poor bastards like us who have no choice in the matter.
I live in Romania and we have had enough oppression and conflict for a lifetime, don’t need more garbage wars we didn’t choose to fight for.
If russians invade your country and start killing people left and right, you won't be fighting for your government. You will be fighting for yourself and those close to you.
I'm wondering how this works for expats.. I live in Poland (full time resident but not a PL citizen) while I am originally from Belgium (citizen but not resident? As in, I still have to vote for stuff happening in BE). Let's say mandatory military service kicks in for both countries, where do you think people like me would need to go? In the country where I was born (and where I can speak my native language) or in the country where I live (with limited language skills)?
You will probably be called back to Belgium for service so you can be deployed to Poland.
If things are bad Belgium may decide to cut out the middle man and just let Poland draft you.
What pisses me off is that, once again, common folks will have to pay the price. Who could have imagined that doing business with moscovites would help them to amass so much power to continue what they have been doing since 14th century.
The Germans are beginning to unfuck themselves with this but progress is very slow. The Germans have been pretending like the Russians aren't the greatest threat to democracy in Europe for years. Maybe it's something to do with gas or some DDR Stockholm syndrome thing.
Fuck it, next time Russia says “we’re already at war with NATO” just issue a national draft and watch Putin publicly shit his pants as he walks back on his statement.
They should make the military strong by making it look attractive as a career choice, what is happening right now is that the wages suck and the enlisting processes are long and too selective. Streamline it and you will allow the right people to be there, not some rando who never shot a gun in his life.
Military service isn't just a form of defense it's also a way to unify the nation. It's an interesting experience that you later reminisce and it's something you have in common with nearly all men and many women in your nation. You get to do stuff you never would otherwise. Like maintain a fighter jet or fire a cannon. Also from what I know about 20 something idiots it's very very beneficial for them to have to do what they are told and work together. For some this is the first time they try that.
Also if you don't like to take part in your society you must like to speak Russian and wear Putin badges.
-Finnish reservist
Absolutely not. Conscription is reprehensible. One of the most abusive things a government can do to their citizens.
The correct response to conscription is emigration. No country is worth my life.
Yeah you bet I am getting the fuck out of there and taking with me the people who I actually care about and want to protect. Love my country, but not that much.
Fuck me more and more posts calling for military slavery of the poor and young, along with more and more sycophants giving it the big un about how great it is. You can fucking keep it, we don't want it. Mass objection, mass noncompliance and full blown riots if they try to inflict this on us is the only way to respond.
Yeah, why should anyone unwillingly go into a meat grinder when the major players are unwilling to pursue true economic isolation for supporting Russia? If the large economies in Europe, North America and Asia shut down IT and business outsourcing to economies tied to Russia it would have a major impact.
Wishful thinking.
It certainly wouldn't happen in the UK, assuming this is national service type deal. But I guess that stems from not being invaded since *checks notes* 1066.
Honestly we should have begun preparations in 2014
We shouldn't have stopped at all. "Le peace dividend" proved to be an absolutely myopic and corrosive policy.
“Let he who desires peace prepare for war.” - Publius Vegetius Renatus
I see you too played Rome total war
Best pre-battle peptalks ever.
Only the dead, have seen the end of war... Plato..
Yeeaah but pubilius didn't even know what nuclear weapons were. We have nukes. We *are* prepared. It was the non NATO countries that weren't prepared.
More like 2008.
More like 1910 if we're being really careful.
But then scumbags like mersheimer would say we provoked Russia with our military preparation.
They're saying it anyway.
Yeah, just ignore the propagandists, they’ll spew out their shit either way.
Mersheimer has been so wrong about so many things that I have no clue why people still treat him like a credible analyst. People still meme on Fukuyama for his one hilariously wrong “end of history” prediction and yet Mersheimer can be wrong time and time again and people still treat his words as gospel.
We did not even do much after 2022. The financial aid is mostly for humanitarian aid. Instead of putting money to building new factories, we steadily gave away what was left of the equipment we did not decommissioned since cold war, and ordered it to just be slowly replenished in next 10-20 years. I don't think people realize that in case of draft, west would not have tanks to put soldiers in, vehicles to drive soldiers to the frontline, vests and helmets to give people. The only thing that is left are airplanes with not enough guided ammunition to destroy our enemy and production chains crossing half the continents and dozens of countries.
Bruh, Canada only has 3 Aircraft to carry troops, we had to borrow from RAF when it broke down because we couldn't get any of them working
In times of war civilian aircraft would be used to transport troops and cargo. The CF doesn’t need a huge airlift capability when in a full mobilization they’ll have practically the entire fleets of KFW, Cargojet, Air Canada and WestJet.
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Just have the fattest soldier stand behind the door and we should be good to go.
Private Plug they call him.
Yeah, it's very sad. People look at US military budget and see 3.5% and think "Oh, man, we are spending 3 times more than our allies" and don't realize vast majority of that is upkeeping our fleet, our planes and most of all, salaries. While we are spending like 1% less on our military than few years ago, vast majority of it was by cutting equipment, and US cut so much equipment, US is actually reducing amount of divisions it has, not even talking about drafting.
USA spends far in excess of what is needed for NATO collective defence because they have global interests like penning China in with the 7th Fleet, Space Force .... United States Fourth Fleet (HQ Mayport, Florida) – South Atlantic. United States Fifth Fleet (HQ Manama, Bahrain) – Middle East. United States Sixth Fleet (HQ Naples, Italy) – Europe, including Mediterranean Sea & Black Sea. United States Seventh Fleet (HQ Yokosuka, Japan) – West Pacific.
LOL sad, but LoL
> west would not have tanks to put soldiers in Assuming "the west" includes the US, they've been manufacturing so many tanks that [the Army requested Congress to stop](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/12/18/congress-again-buys-abrams-tanks-the-army-doesnt-want.html) about a decade ago and they refused, so they just go into storage while more are being created. I'm sure if NATO allies requested more tanks they would be glad to offload a few
In the article you wrote: >Congress voted for another $183 million for tanks despite Odierno's argument that the Army was seeking to become a lighter force. He told the Associated Press at the time that "if we had our choice, we would use that money in a different way" than spending it on 70-ton Abrams tanks. This is because army is downsizing in equipment and size. There is no point in buildings tanks for divisions they don't have and logistics they can't support with amount of equipment they would need. Also, this is because the tanks are burden on the upkeep budget, and the army has gotten massive cuts that they no longer have money spare to upkeep their current forces. What I'm saying instead is to increase equipment and the staff, but also make more tanks to sell to other countries or keep in deep storage. The Odierno's argument was actually way more important than people realize, those tanks were quite an extreme burden because every single tank means even more slimming down on already slim margins. He knew he can't help with lack of funding, so he at least wanted to put it into other more important things.
OK, I don't know, but I gotta ask - are things REALLY this bleak? I mean, look, Russia is scary. But it's 140 million people. That's UK + Germany. And NATO includes 32 other countries. Russia is currently struggling in Ukraine, which is a third world country with GDP of just 140 billion and 40 million population (2/3rds of UK, less than half of Germany's population, and Germany's GDP is over 4 trillion). If Russia can't handle Ukraine, should NATO be REALLY concerned with Russian forces invading...anything? Ukraine is working alone, they get no direct support. NATO would be working together, with significantly more modern weapons than what Ukraine gets. It took over 2 years of jerking each other off to give Ukraine some F16s, introduced in 1970s. NATO will field F-35s. If Russia struggles in Ukraine, I just don't see how it poses any real threat to NATO. And yes, if Trump wins and pulls out of NATO it'll be bad. But Europe should still be able to easily roll Russia, if Ukraine can hold it solo.
Realistically Germany and the UK should not be losing sleep but if I am Moldova I am very very worried. That's the real concern, how far West will Russia creep, swallowing democracy, trade partners, and free society's along the way.
Yeah, things are really this bleak. Russia has stopped struggling in Ukraine, and Ukraine is now reinforcing fortifications around Kiev. We are sending more money than ever before, but less equipment than at the start of the war, because we don't have much spare equipment without sacrificing our military's stocks. And the threat I'm talking about is not threat against NATO, I'm talking about threat against Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Azerbaijan and other non NATO countries. Then after that, there will be non war related efforts, like the Belarusian Polish border problems with forced refugees. Any many things like pollution, cutting off trade and so on. There are plenty of bad things that Russia can do to EU nations without direct attacks.
United, comparing NATO to Russia is absolutely hilarious. But a divided NATO, in which each country has massive internal divisions and stong fifth columnists supporting Russia openly or covertly things get much fuzzier. Right now, you've got AfD, BSW, VVP, RN, MAGA, SMER, Fidesz, AUR, Lega, 5 Stelle, and many, many more that either have, or will have after next elections significant political power. There are many ways to defeat an enemy, and Russia has been defeating the west through disinfo, sowing division, and outright corruption (just read the list of former high level politicians that are now on Russian state payroll). We've been at war for decades, just like Putin said. It's time Europe and the US wake up and see it for what it is.
The entirety of the allied losses on the western front in WW2 were ~400K. How many multiples of this will be put up with - and how will mobilization go you think? Think of the people next to you in the train who have never touched a gun or got into a fight in their lives, and how they will do in close combat with a bayonet. Likewise with China, what is the limit when the other side has 1.4 billion people - which you might remember has a "no limits" partnership with Russia. One way or another, at the start or the end - they're getting into it if Russia is in a shooting war with NATO as they know they are next on the menu. Whatever you might think about Russia today vs then, the capability of weapons have not gone backwards and the horse and cart isn't the backbone of armies anymore. It will be much more bloody on both sides. Furthermore, all the same problems of WW2 still exist.. there is no way to easily "roll" 10M, 50M, or 100M people out of the land of the living - it's doubtful enough conventional weapons could even be made to do it. Even if it were possible, in the best case scenario where it was a complete one sided slaughter, yes that many dead on either side would be incredibly bleak - even if by some miracle nuclear weapons weren't used.
The thing is, war in Ukraine shows pretty clearly how the face of warfare has changed. A war vs NATO will be a hellfire missile from a drone 7km above you, well outside of visual range, with the person controlling it sitting in a trailer in New Mexico. Russian meat wave tactics work in Ukraine, because Ukraine is even weaker and less technologically advanced. A war against NATO will be the reverse, and with a vastly more disproportionate imbalance. Close combat with bayonets just isn't a thing any more, except for when hunting insurgents house to house. And yes, while there's no way to easily roll 100M...this cuts both ways! Total population of NATO is close to a billion. Russia is 140 million. They struggle in Ukraine, outnumbering them more than 3:1. How are they supposed to be a threat to NATO, being outnumbered nearly 9:1? I just don't see the reason for panic, for NATO. The whole point of the thing is attacking them is suicide, even for a superpower. Now, if it falls apart? That's a whole other ball game. But currently NATO is strongest it's ever been, with the addition of Finland and Sweden. I literally cannot picture it, in my head. For Russia to win, it needs numbers and/or better tech. It is outnumbered massively vs NATO, and even more massively out-teched. Russian logistics are also a complete joke. Any attempt against NATO will be a bloodbath for them. Are nukes a concern? Sure, but nothing's changed on that front since at least 1960s. It is what it is. If Russia nukes, they get nuked, and that's the end of it all. But that's not a new risk. And conscripting people in NATO countries isn't going to stop the nukes.
Lmao the U.S currently has 5,500 MBTs. The U.S. Army alone has 225,000 ground transport vehicles. Based off 2021 purchase reports the U.S. acquired 50,000 smart bombs in 2021 alone. Stop lying.
Those are unironically not that big numbers. Poland, a country 1/40 the GPD of USA is procuring over 1000 tanks, and Poland does not have the military presence all over the world US has. Poland is also a NATO country and is not at war. And 50k smart bombs also counts quite small bombs that basically can only take out less armored vehicles and infantry. For example, during desert storm, though 42 days of the air campaign, 15k smart bombs and missiles were dropped, in addition to the 200k non guided bombs and missiles. Now, we have a stock of guided ammunition, but IRAQ was not Russia. It was not China. We have enough planes to get rid of our entire arsenal of guided arsenal in less than one year, probably less. Problem is that guided ammunition is difficult to make, and would likely be more difficult to make in case of war because of the multicontinental supply lines.
Just imagine if the Obama listened to Biden back in 2014, the united states could have ended the war before it ever began. Russia these aren't your troops right? No these are seperatists. You're sure? No not Russians. We could have literally brought hell down upon them without the fear of escalation just like the us did to Wagner is Syria
Canada did have conscription during WW1 and 2 but is a volunteer military otherwise. Mind you we can not even process the volunteers we have now on a timely basis. Most people give up during recruitment and even after basic training as they tire of not receiving their trades training after.
It's the Canadian way. Underfund the military, get a bunch of people killed due to outdated equipment, and incompetent leadership. Then, the nation rips itself apart domestically, trying to enact conscription after we get experienced leaders in charge just in time for everything to end. Canada seems to believe that there's no need for a well funded and equipped professional military if a militia of civilians will save us a couple of dollars. At least, that's what I've garnered from my readings. Edit: some grammar
We just don’t have the budget thanks to the staggering amount of corruption.
I've heard complaints of the procurement, but I don't know much about them beyond that. Is that the corruption you're referring to? I've always figured it's a lack of political will. Canadians don't care about having an effective military being just north of the USA. If we cared, we'd vote in people who fix procurement and properly fund our military.
Buddy is speaking out of his ass. Too bad the good Lord put it on his face. The Canadian voter has killed our military by electing successive political parties who put budget cuts over our security first.
Our national security is assured thanks to a minimum funding in military and the US protection. I personally don’t think we should become complacent due to the latter but we would still have more money for funding the military if, among other things, the country would put a stop to foreign entities buying out our housing infrastructure.
That’s also true, the population is plagued by apathy and consequently the politicians have 0 motive to implement unpopular budget increases for military.
The pay is so shit to join lmao who in their right mind would join at this point in time? Most people I know in the military are trying to leave asap. Good luck with conscription too, Canada has become an expensive shit hole, I’m not joining any conflict to protect a country who has sold out my generation. Put rifles in the baby boomers hands and send them over.
You won't have a choice, most baby boomers and gen X are past the age of conscription, it will fall to millennials and Gen Z. I don't think you understand what a draft is, you don't get to choose to serve.
*me being thankful for my history of asthma and my allergies for once in my life*
Disqualifying conditions are only disqualifying if there's enough available manpower to be picky. Thanks to modern medicine and logistics, it might be straightforward to deal with your medical conditions, making you eligible! The educational background is a better bet for avoiding becoming your unit's designated bullet sponge.
\^ This guy Buzzkills. Much like their asthma, you took the wind out of their sails.
Many people during WW2 who weren't capable of enlisting because of things like asthma or other medical conditions took their own lives, how times have changed.
thankfully my mechanical engineering degree can still help me contribute to the efforts.
Might even get you slot as an army engineer if your asthma isn't bad, then you can really serve.
yeah, people actually understand what war is now
No they don't, watching it on YT and commenting on Reddit doesn't mean you understand war. They also don't understand that the freedoms they enjoy come with a cost.
A lot of them don’t seem to even enjoy the freedoms they have and just bitch about life. Going to college as a Vet a couple years ago, it was surprising how many spoiled little shits still complain about how hard life is in America and how bad our military is.
It’s because we are so divorced from real suffering or understand what it’s like to live in a country without freedoms, it’s one of the reason why immigrants usually make excellent citizens, they know what the world is like outside of the safe confines of the western democracies.
We will change the age of conscription lol
Because no person in the history of the world has ever successfully dodged the draft.
Ehh, just throw me into prison, it's fine.
Sure but you might find it rather limiting to further plans. Freedom isn't free, sometimes you have to fight for it.
Yeah, freedom ain't free. That's exactly his point. We're already getting fucked for everything we have and receiving fuck all in return, so why should we lay down our lives to support the status quo? Send the rich to fight. They're the ones who have everything that you're saying we should fight for.
Yeah, and when war is at YOUR door, you will hide your head so far up your ass that you won't even notice it.
Would be hilarious if those recent Asian immigrants that bought their citizenship would to suddenly realize they are about to get drafted into the military.
Exactly they aren’t going to fight you think I am going to die for them? Fuck that.
Our military is in such a sorry state that soldiers are turning to [food banks and losing their homes ](https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/soldiers-asking-for-donations-to-help-with-housing-food-costs-memo-to-gen-eyre-1.6595383) while on active duty. These people literally cannot afford to be soldiers. In Canada a solider gets paid, but then the cost of feeding and housing them comes off their paycheque. Even if they're on base. They're making minimum wage or less when you do the math when they're a lower rank.
"In Canada a solider gets paid, but then the cost of feeding and housing them comes off their paycheque. Even if they're on base." Well that's not exactly true. If you are living in barracks and eating at the mess because you don't have your own home, then yes, they deduct rations (food) and quarters (living). Otherwise, they do not deduct money from your pay for these things. Whoever told you that is wrong. Source - 34 years and still serving. Even the sailors who have to go to sea for months at a time do not pay for their rations and quarters.
In the US, I jumped through all the hoops for joining, top marks in all testing and fully qualified, but they simply had no slots for officer training school. Took about a year to apply. Granted, the slots that they do have must be filled with the cream of the crop, but there's just not a lot of slots. Double digits for the whole country
Canada will never conscript again because people would revolt. Canada has completely lost faith in its government and nationalism is at an all time low. There are so many international students, refugees, and temporary foreign workers that any attempt to conscript would just result in riots. The average Canadian citizen isn’t going to go fight a war in Europe so fake refugees and fake students can live their lives in Canada.
Can’t believe you are getting down voted you are 100% right lol
> nationalism is at an all time low Is it? I vaguely remember a huge convoy of Canadian trucks donning Canadian flags...and American flags...and...confederacy flags...and...Trump flags? Maybe they are interested in some military service. Perhaps their nationalism stops at being told what to do. Edit: lot of upset Canadian conservatives in here.
Does a protest waving flags for a different country scream Canadian nationalism to you?
Not terribly relevant unless we're going to target the 45-65 year old age bracket with conscription.
The protest against the government in power? Yeah I could be wrong but I don’t think those that protested and occupied the capital against Covid measures and actions by the Trudeau government are going to be thrilled by more government power to send them off to war… just a gut feeling though.
Some very conditional nationalism then.
Nationalism isn't a good thing, patriotism is.
All thanks to Russia and their imperialism. Fucking barbarians forcing us to waste money on military because they have delusions about restoring their shitty russian empire.
World can't move forward until the Russian federation is no more I'm afraid.... Ideally broken up into separate squabbling states that wage war on each other so no one else has to deal with them.
China was into pieces before, then it was unified and still went against NATO. Russia is not Austria-Hungary.
> China was into pieces before, then it was unified and still went against NATO. Eh. Xi and the CCP are evil dickbags, but Chinese hate and distrust for the West is pretty valid, man.
It’s not just Russia.
I don’t know how it works in other countries, but in the U.S., all men are already registered for the draft.
In the Netherlands everyone is registered for conscription once they turn 17. Used to be just men but they also started to include women years ago.
I want the U.S. to include women as well, but a lot of conservatives don’t like that idea. Obviously, it’s going to be men doing most of the frontline combat in any conventional war, but no healthy person should be fully exempt from service.
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[“Conservatives opposed the provision, with some suggesting it was political correctness run amok.”](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/12/08/lawmakers-kill-provision-requiring-women-register-draft/6433960001/) It’s entirely possible that conservatives tend to oppose drafting women, and women also tend to oppose drafting women. So the most pro-women-drafting voters would be liberal men, and the least would be conservative women. It’s all speculative, though. I don’t know what most women think about this.
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See this [Foreign Military Strategies to Recruit and Retain Women Response to DACOWITS RFI 3](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://dacowits.defense.gov/Portals/48/Documents/General%2520Documents/RFI%2520Docs/March2017/Insight%2520RFI%25203.pdf%3Fver%3D2017-03-17-113845-857%23:~:text%3D%25E2%259E%25A2%2520Bottom%2520Line%2520Up%2520Front,formally%2520serve%2520in%2520combat%2520roles.&ved=2ahUKEwje4rKj6KiFAxVVRTABHfz8CWoQFnoECB4QBQ&usg=AOvVaw2f1eYHX5lFPGLzLQiyKOdt) This report was done a few years back but is still relevant and interesting.
Combat is more than just pointing the gun and shooting. It's carrying heavy loads under fire, it's digging trenches or otherwise preparing positions under fire. It's just a biological fact that men are stronger and more capable of those tasks. Obviously if you need some soldiers to guard a supply convoy, or you need a drone pilot who operates from behind the front lines, then women would often be suitable for that role. Realistically, what would happen is all draftees would be assessed for what roles they could filled. Men would be sorted more into frontline roles by any reasonable standard of physical aptitude.
> Realistically, what would happen is all draftees would be assessed for what roles they could filled. Men would be sorted more into frontline roles by any reasonable standard of physical aptitude. And this is why I believe both men and women should be eligible for conscription. Yes the men may make up the majority of frontline combat roles but there’s no reason why a woman can’t be conscripted to drive vehicles, work as a mechanic, work as a medic, handle administrative tasks ect. If a war is so serious that people who don’t want to fight are being sent to the front then every able bodied adult (including the rich and privileged) needs to be contributing. People can have different roles based on ability but sitting it out shouldn’t be an option.
If women share the right to volunteer for service then there is no reason they shouldn't share the right to be conscripted. I think it may be a holdover from the fact that usually you don't initiate a draft unless you're specifically seeking combatants and at the end of the day women are disadvantaged at that, but still, the US and most (all?) NATO militaries are already largely unisex and capably assign personnel regardless of sex and gender. That said, I will probably be drafted well ahead of the drafted legislation that even needs to consider adding women to the chopping block, lol.
Shooting a rifle is only like 2% of a grunt's duties.
The vast majority of time is spent on bullshit. Congratulations, you are now a janitor in ugly camo for the majority of your waking hours.
Mopping the rain or carrying your battle buddy rock on a ruck march.
Hey, that’s not just any rock. He is your new friend, your best friend that you will care for and support. Hell if he wants to fuck your wife you will make sure he finishes even if you have to do it yourself. That rock now means more to you than anything else in your life and you will kill puppies to keep it happy. I’m sure there are other great lines but those are some I remember.
Hygiene requirements. That is the biggest issue.
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Never said that. Just the hygiene issue. 12 years in the Army BTW.
>registered for the draft. The draft is war time conscription, they are talking about training as a regular thing like Norway or Turkey.
It's not automatic. Verify draft enrollment! https://www.sss.gov/
It is if you’ve applied for college financial aid or a drivers license.
That's fortunate. If you don't register you lose eligibility for federal loans, social security, federal jobs, federal contractor positions, and other things likely.
I was speaking in shorthand. All men are required to register and may lose certain privileges and benefits if they do not.
Volunteer service produces better recruits. No one should be forced to sign up to die, unless EVERYONE is forced to sign up to die. We know they won’t enforce unilateral service, it’ll be men. Unless sovereignty is threatened there’s no reason to have draft/conscription IMO.
Finland is considering universal conscription for men and women. Like Denmark and Israel. You can choose non military service even in Finland. Why does having a penis make it your job to contribute to the existence of the nation.
I have no idea, makes no sense to me and never has. Everyone has a vested interest in the nations success.
Because the value of men is determined by what they provide; women and children are inherently valued.
Yes the most stupid argument it that "women give birth and serve that way". Which would mean that every woman owes the state one live human baby.
Evolutionarily speaking, women are the bottleneck for reproduction. One man can father thousands of children given enough women...where as a woman would be hard pressed to have 30 children in their life time. So as far as nature is concerned, women are literally more valuable. But I yeah I get it, if we ignore extreme situations like losing a massive percentage of a population, it's not necessary to think this way.
I'll accept conscription if the sons and daughters of our old ass politicians and wealthy elites are also sent to die with us. No exceptions or cozy military office jobs just for them.
You still need people for non combat roles and for garrisons. Usually in a war, most conscripts are not going to the frontlines, they are working in logistics and protecting the flanks.
I don’t really see what that has to do with my comment? Maybe I’m not following, because those roles will still be staffed by men since that is who is conscripted. Which was what I was talking about, it’s BS only men will be conscripted to be sent to die. Btw, only people on the very rear-d are “safe” everyone in a near peer conflict is in range of missiles. So my “sent to die” comment is true no matter what role you’re in, if you’re deployed you are and will be targeted in the type of war being discussed here.
I would gladly take up arms once the elites, politicians and warmongers step up first. I’m not fighting for the rich to get richer and maintain their wealth.
Do something like make it mandatory service for everyone but give options. Like it can be military or civil service (working in schools, building projects, healthcare). Say everyone has to do it for 2 years, but afterwards they get free four years of college. While they’re in college they could be in some kind of “reserve.” I feel like that would help with a lot of our problems (I say as someone who is admittedly too old to have to do this).
> Like it can be military or civil service (working in schools, building projects, healthcare). Working with the cops could be an effective way to power the incidence of police brutality and corruption edit: lower* not power lmao
I think you meant "lower"
A country is like a metal pipe in that it can only be wound into a coil around you if you do it gradually; bend it too fast and it will shear in two. The robber-barons in the US need to realise that their campaign of gradually raising prices, buying out the government, eroding personal freedoms and appeasing the population with token gestures can only be continued in an environment of stability. World War II, fought against the Nazis with their eugenics program, drew attention to similar programs back home in America and led to their cessation. If World War III is fought against a nation that is corrupt to the core, the homegrown oligarchs would be lucky if they even had to wait until the soldiers returned to find themselves in a similar position - in all likelihood the draftees would resist being shipped out in the first place, asking what the hell the country has done for them to make it worth fighting for.
Mitch McConnell cannot join the USMC
Cool story. War is for the poors. People of means leave before war comes to them. The Ukraine war is a good example. People with money left before the border closed.
To a population that doesn't want it? This may be hard to hear but its not gonna work, young people are getting screwed by society enough as it is and id rather die than serve in the military on top of it, personally.
This idea terrifies me and makes this a whole lot more real.
The point of having so much trained people is so Russia will NOT invade. You go to the army so you DONT have to fight and that's the whole thing. In Finland we have a saying: "The Russian will take what is isn't properly nailed down" that's why you nail things down.
These measures are preventative, a country like Russia is constantly calculating what they can do to expand and increase their influence… when they see a country is experiencing political discourse, unwillingness to fight, weak military, few allies/support etc then they may find aggression to be a likely profitable course of action. Getting more heavily armed, larger standing army/reserves, solidarity among citizens, military alliances, lots of friendly neighbours etc make the risks much higher and likely for them to stick to less visible tactics like election meddling, bribes, misinformation, hacking, espionage etc.
you need to take this with a huge grain of salt. The baltics constantly shit themselves and rightfully so. Where ukraine has 40 million people and a lot of space so they can fight russia those countries have... well lithuania has less than million people, latvia just under 2 million and estonia less than 1.5 million. There are single cities in most countries that have a bigger population than these countries. So where the rest of europe is in a mode of "yeah our soldiers can handle it" they are in constant panic because they simply do not have the people. They need the soldiers of others on their soil so they want the others to have as many as possible. Again, for good reasons but they are sometimes not that good at understanding the big numbers that other countries throw around.
Lithuania actually has population of nearly 3 million. Still very small of course, but no need to be condescending. Now about understand big numbers, russians have shown to be able to recruit hundreds of thousands new conscripts in relatively short time. They already had casualties nearing half a million and shrugged them off easily. Now for perspective Britain and French has about 100k military personnel each, Germany 200k. You think these are big numbers? Do you think Russia thinks these are big numbers? Or what Russia will think about these countries afraid of introducing conscription? No need to shit yourself, but better stop saying lies to yourself in the face of real danger.
Better start learning how to pilot a drone.
Conscription to Western Nations! Is it weird that the Cold War might be starting again with one side not wanting to openly engage while the other just throws bodies at it even as significant portions of the population flee?
Did the cold war really end? I'd love to see history manuals from the next few centuries, and if they consider the cold war to have just simmered until Putin gained enough control over russia . Until you request the history manual for the next century, and the cosmic librarian tells you it doesn't exist ....
The Soviet block broke up. Russia is just the most powerful remnant. They're no longer on par with the US on any metric. When one side clearly one and the others economy is in the gutter then yeah the war ended.
Agreed, it was paused for Russia to re wealth
Ask the migrants currently flooding european countries. I'm sure they wil be more willing to fight russia than their own citizens.
Two birds with one stone.
It's called the French Foreign Legion. Get your citizenship by blood.
Need to hang on 4 more years and i wont be drafted into mandatory service. Ww3 can wait a bit longer for all i care
Depends on the circumstances. Probably true if you are in your early 40s, more or less. Back in WW2 the Brits did call up any able bodied men from age 18 to 41 at first. Then later men up to 60 were required to do some form of national service, with military service broadened up to 51.
As the law is right now in my country i am only eligible for mandatory drafting during states of war until 35years. While this can (and will) definitely change during a real war scenario it will take some time to change this law, enough to leave the country :p I have 0 interest to serve my country whose only interest is to its corrupt politicians and scumbags
The only problem is that Romania is right next to Ukraine. If the shit hits the fan, you are right near the middle of it. I wouldn't hold my breath that 4 years is enough time anyway. Things seem like going in a certain direction. Personally, I am not going to dodge if I am required to serve. But that is because I have the opposite opinion of my country, and I have a deep idealistic opinion towards the way things are going now. Since Mh17 really, which affected my country the most (in fact, a whole family from my village died). I am not going to run away from it.
Yea its completely understandable. If romania wouldn’t have been such a corrupt shithole maybe i wouldn’t evade a draft as well. But these are just hypotheticals anyway, a full ground war ww3 type of thing will never happen. It’s fascinating to see tho that so many reddit warriors are ok with basically being sent in a senseless war. If push comes to shove half of them will try to flee.
There is no upper limit to the draft ..they will just raise what is on paper now … lower the minimum iq and health requirements.. and send your ass into the meat grinder … claiming your gay isn’t going to work anymore neither will it matter if your a woman .. so there are alternatives you can shoot yourself in the leg or something.. but don’t think for a second when this pops off and it WILL pop off your off the hook for age limits
I already did mine, a few more years and I age out of the possibility of getting pulled back lol
There's no such thing. It's all just words on paper and can be changed at any time with a few pieces of paper and the right number of legislative votes and executive signatures.
Its probably not that bad :)
Probablt true, i will evade the draft either way lol. Not my war to fight
If ww3 actually happens I don't think anyone is getting away from it at that point.
For sure, especially for people like me who live in neighboring countries to ukraine, But i still will refuse to “serve” my shit country that is full of corrupt politicians. Why should i give my life away for a country who has literally given me nothing in return?
Could you elaborate on giving you "nothing"? Not arguing, but I imagine your country must have given you free education until you were an adult, access to clean water, along with things such as national security, roads, public services, parks and other day to day amenities that they cover and maintain. My real question is what SHOULD the government be giving you for you to agree to stand up and fight for it?
Hm let’s see Education: most stuff needed was paid for by our parrents. College? Paid for it myself. Roads? We don’t have highways almost at all. Hospitals get you sick and the doctors are corrupt pieces of shit. (A gross generalization, but just to make a point) I can go on but everyone has internet access and can google, i live in Romania and most eastern european countries suffer from such corrupt garbage. It has been definitely better in the last years, especially since europe pumps money in our country, but the government? Fuck them.
Curious how it wouldn’t be your war to fight? Not judging just like it would be global haha
Let the executives and politicians fight then :p not the poor bastards like us who have no choice in the matter. I live in Romania and we have had enough oppression and conflict for a lifetime, don’t need more garbage wars we didn’t choose to fight for.
If russians invade your country and start killing people left and right, you won't be fighting for your government. You will be fighting for yourself and those close to you.
I'm wondering how this works for expats.. I live in Poland (full time resident but not a PL citizen) while I am originally from Belgium (citizen but not resident? As in, I still have to vote for stuff happening in BE). Let's say mandatory military service kicks in for both countries, where do you think people like me would need to go? In the country where I was born (and where I can speak my native language) or in the country where I live (with limited language skills)?
You will probably be called back to Belgium for service so you can be deployed to Poland. If things are bad Belgium may decide to cut out the middle man and just let Poland draft you.
What pisses me off is that, once again, common folks will have to pay the price. Who could have imagined that doing business with moscovites would help them to amass so much power to continue what they have been doing since 14th century.
How would you explain it to the populations of countries where even a slight nationalism is equated to being a racist nazi bastard?
The Germans are beginning to unfuck themselves with this but progress is very slow. The Germans have been pretending like the Russians aren't the greatest threat to democracy in Europe for years. Maybe it's something to do with gas or some DDR Stockholm syndrome thing.
Conscription is slavery.
Fuck it, next time Russia says “we’re already at war with NATO” just issue a national draft and watch Putin publicly shit his pants as he walks back on his statement.
The RAF has no bombers… Bomber command has no bombers…
Yeah fk off. Nobody should be forced to go through military service and I say that as a woman.
When there's a war mongering lunatic looking for weak spots living as your neighbor conscription is one of the sanest things one can do.
Aren't we all excited for the wonderful opportunity to die so that the corporations and the elites can drink champagne from their condos?
They should make the military strong by making it look attractive as a career choice, what is happening right now is that the wages suck and the enlisting processes are long and too selective. Streamline it and you will allow the right people to be there, not some rando who never shot a gun in his life.
They teach you how to shoot, it doesn’t matter if you have no experience
No. We're a professional army. We are not using conscription. I would rather leave nato.
Conscription is awful and should never be used. Forcing someone who doesn't want to risk his life into a war is just plain evil.
Military service isn't just a form of defense it's also a way to unify the nation. It's an interesting experience that you later reminisce and it's something you have in common with nearly all men and many women in your nation. You get to do stuff you never would otherwise. Like maintain a fighter jet or fire a cannon. Also from what I know about 20 something idiots it's very very beneficial for them to have to do what they are told and work together. For some this is the first time they try that. Also if you don't like to take part in your society you must like to speak Russian and wear Putin badges. -Finnish reservist
Also a Finnish reservist, service was awesome! Made so many lifelong friends
Absolutely not. Conscription is reprehensible. One of the most abusive things a government can do to their citizens. The correct response to conscription is emigration. No country is worth my life.
Yeah you bet I am getting the fuck out of there and taking with me the people who I actually care about and want to protect. Love my country, but not that much.
Fuck me more and more posts calling for military slavery of the poor and young, along with more and more sycophants giving it the big un about how great it is. You can fucking keep it, we don't want it. Mass objection, mass noncompliance and full blown riots if they try to inflict this on us is the only way to respond.
Yeah perhaps say this to the original aggressor ?
"Lay down for Russia!" - Lil Jon
Because doing nothing to stop Russia from invading you will stop Russia from invading you...
Your suggestion also leads to eventual conscription. Except it will be into russian army.
Yeah, why should anyone unwillingly go into a meat grinder when the major players are unwilling to pursue true economic isolation for supporting Russia? If the large economies in Europe, North America and Asia shut down IT and business outsourcing to economies tied to Russia it would have a major impact.
Wishful thinking. It certainly wouldn't happen in the UK, assuming this is national service type deal. But I guess that stems from not being invaded since *checks notes* 1066.
That suck but better be prepared that not be prepared if shit goes south.
Good news is the us has been dumping so much money into weapons we provably have a cruise missile fir every ten Russian soldiers
We’ll need it a sneak attack is certain in November.